66. From miniskirts to stem cell therapy: How a fashion leader is changing heart failure treatment | Jenifer Rosenberg OBE

Welcome to All About Business, with me, James Reed, the podcast that covers everything about business, management and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests, the bootstrapped companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field, and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. From the swinging 60s fashion rails to the front line of Cutting Edge Medical Research, today's guest has reinvented herself more than once. I'm joined by Jennifer Rosenberg, OBE, Entrepreneur, former fashion manufacturer for some of the UK's best known retailers, and founder of the Hart Sells Foundation. We'll dive into resilience, reinvention, and what it takes to turn hard moments into meaningful impact for thousands of people. Well, today on All About Business, I couldn't be more delighted than to welcome Jennifer Rosenberg, who has had three amazing careers, and we're going to talk a little about each of them. Jennifer, you started out at Marx & Spencer's, and was promoted on numerous occasions to a very senior role there, earlier in your career, then you started your own business, J&J Fashions, which became the largest privately owned ladies wear manufacturer in the country, employing thousands of people. Then you started the Hart Sells Foundation, which is pioneering really exciting new research to help people with heart disease and heart conditions. I want to talk to you about that as well. But firstly, welcome. Thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me, James. It's a real pleasure to see you. Thank you for coming in. Let's go back to the beginning and those swinging 60s, because I believe that you were the person with your team who introduced the mini-skirt to Marx & Spencer's. That's right. That's what I started in Eminence in the post room. So I really started at the bottom, pushing a post trolley around delivering the mail, but I didn't intend to stay there. After various meetings with staff management and everything, I found myself in the scourge department, and I was very happy to be in the scourge. At that time, I wasn't the senior buyer of the scourge, department. I was very junior, but I could see what was happening in London. This was the beginning of the 60s. It was every day there was something new that was happening in the scene, and Mary Quant developed something called the mini-skirt. Prior to that, we'd been wearing skirts down to our calves, our ankles, and suddenly this amazing designer called Mary Quant, and this wonderful model called Twiggy, was walking around London in these mini-skirts. I felt, "Well, we've got to have this." So I bought one for myself, and fortunately I've got good legs, so that was okay. That went down very well, and I made a presentation to the board, and I said to them, "We have to try this. This is what's happening on the high street, and they armmed, and they are, and I put it up against myself, and because I'm quite short, it didn't look— I'm so sorry to interrupt you at this point, just to help me visualise this. Was the board all mail? Yeah. So you were presenting all men, or no women on it? No women at all. And they were probably all of us, certainly. So definitely, definitely. And they had a reputation of being quite staid, Marksman. Yes, but they were staid, but they were involved. They were involved. They were very much into merchandise. They really would feel the fabric, look at the fabric, and they also had an amazing way of communication, communication with us. They were brilliant. So they'd walk in, and they'd say, "What's new?" So I immediately got hold of my sample of this mini skirt, and I said, "Sir, I feel we should be trying this. This is what's happening on the high street, and I put it up against myself, and it didn't look that short." Why is that, Janet? Because I'm short. Because you're not short. So they're quite long on you. They look quite reasonable on me. So in fact, it was Teddy Sieve at the time. He was the chair, Mark. He's a famous retailer. Absolutely. And he said, "Well, and they used to call you by your maiden name. So my name was Levine. So he said, "Well, Miss Levine, okay, but if you think we should try it, let's try it." So we worked in dozens in those days. So we'll try 50,000, which was nothing for them when they were buying. And of course, we made them put them out, and they just walked off the counter within a day. I mean, 50,000, I like that. Well, we worked in dozens, yeah. It's just like six hundred times. Six hundred, six hundred times. Absolutely. For pre-decivilisation. Even after decimalisation, we worked in dozens. I wonder why that was. I don't know. Just tradition. Just tradition. Absolutely. It was a very traditional firm, but they had vision. And that was so important. And they realised that what was happening in the high street in the sixes was changing ladies fashion. In fact, it was changing everything. It was changing the music, it was changing hair. You had Vidal Sassoon, who created that amazing cut that Mary Quantad and Twiggy had. I mean, the whole scene was changing. Even Reed Employment began in 1960. So it was a brilliant time. Your father had great vision and knew this was the time to start. Well, it was a time for new ideas. Exactly. Everybody was thirsty and hungry for new ideas. And he was definitely an ideas guy. So you found yourself in this amazing business where they were open-minded to new ideas. So open-minded. And you were able to present what you mean? I mean, I always remember when I bought for myself, there was a wonderful boutiques of stores called Coronel and they bought beautiful merchandise from Paris. And I bought from there a velvet blazer, a brown velvet blazer. I remember it like it was yesterday. And again, I brought it in and I showed it to my director at the time, which again was Teddy Seed. And I said, "Sir, I feel this is something we should try." And he looked at it and he said, "Miss Lovie, velvet's only for the evening." I said, "No, it's moving forward now. People are going to be wearing velvet blazers during the day." Well, then try it. But this time, because it was such an expensive garment, we could then try, try 25, doesn't. We got them in again. Hermannes made velvet blazers for the next 10 years. They never stopped. So it became a fashion item that every woman wanted a hat. What colors were they? Black and brown. Well, it's just those two colors. It's like Henry Ford with his car. You can have any color as long as it's black. Well, I'm picking up the, you called him, sir, Teddy Seed, and he called you Miss Lovie. Money. I mean, so the business environment has changed so much, doesn't it? Totally, totally. Totally. I mean, I mean, I'm just an interesting perspective. But I find it strange when I maybe call somebody up and they immediately call me by my first name, because that isn't how we grew up. No. But that's the way the world is today. It's very different. But Marx and Spence's then was, I mean, it's still a very successful and very good business. But then it was sort of undisputed leaders. Undisputed leaders at the high street. What qualities made it that, do you think? Because we had to, polity was terribly important. Quality. Quality. All the factors that manufacture for Hermannes had to be of a certain standard. They couldn't be like, um, sweat shops. They just couldn't. They had to be, had proper facilities of the, Hermannes insisted on having the right facilities for their staff. They had canteens in all their shop. So girls could have breakfast or lunch. And they insisted that the manufacturers had the same facilities. They had to be clean. They had to have canteens for the girls to have lunch. And if you smoke, and those days people smoke, you, um, had a smoking room. Right. So they were ahead of their time. Where ahead of their time? Where? Was most of the manufacturing done in Britain then as well? As that time, everything was done in Britain. On their leave. All the sourcing was made in Britain. Maybe not the fabric. But every, I would say, 100% of actual manufacturing was done in the UK. So that's totally changed totally changed now. Totally changed. Yeah. Um, it's a totally different world. I mean, you buy something, you buy, I don't know, a skirt or a brine. It's made in Bangladesh or it's made in Pala Lumpur, wherever. Right. And you don't know what the conditions are in those factories. Well, they are their sweatshops. Do you remember that terrible, I think it was, was it either Bangladesh or Pakistan where they had that terrible fire? Yes, I do. And a lot of people were killed. And I mean, those factory conditions were appalling. So it's interesting. I said, why do you think that those standards that were so successful then were allowed to fall away? Well, they haven't fallen away in the UK. It's because people have gone overseas. Well, that's what's happened, isn't it? But I mean, people in the UK have you know, I was telling you a funny story. Right. Before going into the skirt department, I was in the accessory department. And I was very junior then. And we were buying Chanel crochet berries from Italy. These Chanel berries were all handmade by artisans living all around Florence, but they would come to a central point where they would be collected. So I went to this central point, which was a factory to check these berries out. And each worker had been given a shape, which they had to make these hand crochet berries too. Anyway, being a lady, I suddenly decided I need to go to the lavatory. So I said, oh, you know, where can I go? And there was a lot of hissing and talking behind hands and everything. And suddenly the next thing, I find myself in a car being taken to somebody's home to use the facilities because all they had in the factory was a hole in the floor. Right. So I thought this was terribly funny. So when I went back and I told my boss you know this story about what had happened. He was horrified and the manufacturers agent was called in and said unless they put proper facilities in that factory they're canceling all the contracts and that's how they operated because they felt that you shouldn't have proper facilities everywhere. And they were their high standards really created the amazing business that they had and the quality of the merchandise that they made. Yeah so it's a real message around focusing on quality. Quality was second to not treating people properly. And treating people and I always read another instance again, again with them Teddy Sieve. There's something with tweeds again tweeds were manufactured in various countries and used to buy a lot of them but there's a fabric called Ballswall which is where the offcuts of the fabric was made and it was cheaper it felt very coarse. He would always feel a scar should say this can't be Ballswall because we're not buying it. So and they had their own quality control in the building. They had their own team of quality control people. They had their own laboratories. They were way, way ahead. Read.co.uk is giving away one million free job listings to employers across the UK. Whether you're filling dozens of rolls over the next few months or looking for your next team member right now, read.co.uk can find them for free. No catch, no long-term commitments, just more businesses being able to find their perfect hire. At quickly, these listings aren't free forever. Visit read.co.uk/millionjobgiveaway today and be part of one million opportunities to love Mondays. So Teddy Seaf, I mean you've mentioned him several times. I know because he was my boss. He was your boss but I mean he he the younger listeners was very famous. Very. Retailer, entrepreneur, businessman in the 20th century. What did you learn from your boss? What would be carried forward into this year? What I learned was first I think he was a wonderful communication. You know he was the chairman of this public company and I was a kid in my 20s. He knew exactly who I was. He would come in, he would have a conversation with me, he would communicate with me and I think that was an amazing, amazing way to operate and they're all the senior board operators like that. They would go down to Marble Art, talk to the customers, see what was happening, what was selling, come back and they knew that business inside out. So they were very keen to talk to people who were in the shop floor, customer phase and they would learn from them. And they would make a point of talking to the sales assistant because the sales assistant would know more than anybody else what the customer wants. Yes. I mean and they they regarded everybody as being important, you know from the from the shop assistant to the buyer to the senior buyer they treated us all equally. Very good, that's a very important message. You started out, you said in the post room so I suppose that was a good way to get to know everyone because you were delivering the mail. No I got to know everybody. I didn't stand the post room very long. I was in there two weeks. So we're inside okay. I went into the accounts department and that's where I got to know everybody because in those days you had things like checks. Right. And the checks had to have two signatures. So every check had to have the company secretary of signature on him. Mr Goldberg, I remember him like it was yesterday. And then I was given the job because I was young and cute. I was given the job of them finding directors to get the second signature on what I didn't find and they'd phone around. And there were various members of the board like the sackers and the sackers and the sackers and the what at the laskers. And they were mature gentlemen and they were very happy when I came in to have a conversation. They didn't have much to do. Other than sign the checks have a cup of coffee and they were so I got to know them all. So I would say that I learned more. I learned about more people in the accounts department than I did in the post room. But at this point about making time to talk to people it feels like in many businesses that's been lost. I think it is being lost because you've got all this technology today. People are texting their sending emails. They're losing the art of communication. I have a little saying, I always say to myself, it pays to talk and I think it's so important to pick up the phone and have a conversation with somebody rather than keep sending text is an email. It pays to talk. It pays to talk. My version of that is talk before you type. Oh okay. We're on the same wavelength. We are. I think you're more likely to get things done if you talk to someone. Absolutely. I agree with you. I couldn't agree with you more because an email is very black and white and it can be dangerous. Whereas when you have a conversation you can just, if you can feel there's a situation developing you can diffuse it. Yes. So how many years were you at Marx and Spence? I was at Marx and Spence for 14 years. And then you branched out on your own which is exciting. So this is career number two. So I left career number one where I was flying high. I was really. So what was your last job there before? My last job was in the latest separates and separates had grown. It's time I started off with a small skirt range but from there we developed a trial to range. They didn't have trousers. Then we developed jackets and the whole thing grew. It was growing at such a fast rate. We didn't quite realise how big it was. It was enormous. It was quite funny with trousers because we developed these fit and flare trousers and we couldn't get enough production. So again when the board would go round to different manufacturers, anyone that had Hoffman press suddenly became a trouser manufacturer overnight. We were pulling in production from everyone. Was a Hoffman press? Or Hoffman press, right. It's two pads and you just clamp it down and it seems and presses. So you put a trouser leg under it and you get the crease. I see. But you use it for other things as well. You don't use it for trousers. You can use it for but it's all been modernised. I shouldn't think any industry uses the Hoffman press today. That's why I wanted to make sure I knew what it was. So in 1974 you left and you started your own business. I started my own manufacturing business called J&J Fashions. Supply who else but Marx and Spenser. So you had left on good terms obviously. I left on very good terms. In fact they gave me a golden handshake which was very nice. In fact I actually left on the Christmas of '73. We opened our doors to our factory January '74 which you're far too young to remember but that was the days of Edward Heath and Harold Wilson and we had a three day week. No I do remember. I do remember. Yeah that wasn't the great time for me to start a business. It was a good time to start a business. You could only work for three days a week. So how did you deal with that? I mean what happened? Well what happened was my husband was also a very large manufacturer to Emonese and he had a factory nearby that had a generator so he would use the generator for the two days that he wasn't working and then I would borrow the generator for the two days that we weren't working. Oh so it was on a truck wasn't it? On a truck. So what did you make of what were your first contract with latest trousers? Yes. So describe them what did they look like? Well I'd say fish and flair with that. Flair trousers. Flair trousers. 1974. Yeah I'm thinking flair trousers. What material? Frimply. Frimply. Frimply and the best people loved these. They loved these trousers and the fastest colours were navy and black. Right so this was sort of something people would wear. Absolutely well. The trousers were coming into people's wardrobe. They were new. But women didn't wear trousers. So you've revolutionised. Well I always remember when we wracked Emonese going back to Emonese and again Teddy Seaf came in and he said and trousers were selling incredibly well I said well why are you girls not wearing trousers because we were. I said well we're not allowed to so he said well from today on you are allowed to wear them. I want to see you all in trousers. That's good so. So that's when that would have been I suppose about 1970s, 1971 we were allowed to wear trousers. So that gave you an idea this was something that might be happening everywhere. And then you grew that business and you ended up with several factories. We finished up in the Emonese 12 factories. We started our first factory in the northeast in Walsend and we grew we finished up with Newcastle. Newcastle that's right. We finished up with about eight factories there. We were in Sondland, Blythe along the whole coast. So Newcastle was your base. Newcastle was our base. Right. And then we then branched into Yorkshire. What made you succ. I mean because you became I think businesswoman of the year, the Cooldaert Smart Champagne brand. Absolutely. And I still get my champagne every year on my birthday. Are they still cemetery? Oh credit to them for that. So you were obviously very successful in this period. Well it was a very exciting time again because 70s was a very prosperous time in the UK. And you know I had a wonderful relationship with Mark Sonspenser and I was able to develop that relationship from being a buyer there knowing what the marketplace wanted to be coming a manufacturer. So what you've just described is an interesting opportunity I think for many people is to become a supplier to your current companies. You know if you're working somewhere. What might be helpful to your current employer that you might be able to supply to them because when my father started this business in 1960, he recruited for Gillette, for instance, which is where he used to work. Oh right, well there you are. He also left on very good terms. So it's a very similar scenario. Yeah, if you can leave on good terms and become a supplier to a company you work for, that's maybe a good way to get going. Because they also value it, because they know that you know what they want and how they operate, and therefore you know their standards. I'll tell you a funny story with my first factory. So I might go in there and it's all got, it's a warehouse, on industrial site at Wolzen. So it's got to be painted. So I did a colour board. I got my colours sorted out, and I, with the builder and I said the walls are going to be this colour and then when I go up there, they're not the same colour. They were a bright white and I wanted a cream. So he said to me, but so I said, well it's wrong. He said, well it doesn't matter, it's only a factory. I said it may only be a factory to you, but it's my factory and I want the colours, the way I chose them. So can you please change this colour? I don't think anyone had ever spoken to him like that before. But the colours were changed, I don't know that. Absolutely, because if you're looking at bright white walls, it's very bad on your eyes. Because you're having softer, much softer, because you've got the bright lights on all the time. Yeah. So yeah. So how many people work to that factory? When, in the beginning or the, oh, in the walls there, I suppose, we're so much at off with one line, because when you're in production you have lines of machines. So you start off with one, I'm gradually built it out, and I suppose we've probably finished up with about a hundred in that factory. So what made you open separate factories, rather than just get a bigger factory? Well, first of all, it was the space. I mean, factories take up a lot of room, because you've got to have a machine and then you've got to have your pressing units at the bottom and you're packing. It's a lot of footage required to manufacture garments. It's not like your manufacturing cans of soup. You need a lot more room, a lot of room. So you need a lot of room from one way? A lot of space, a lot of space. And it was better. I mean, if you get too big, it's much difficult to control, then if you've got a system, I say you've got eight or ten lines in a factory, you have a supervisor on each line, you have the merchandise being made in sections through the line. And then it comes to the bottom, it gets pressed, it gets packed. We just found that was a better way of a, most of the factories were that similar sizes, actually, if I think about a hundred people. Around a hundred people. Some were more. We had some more. Yeah. So what other items did you make? Well, we finished up making everything in ladies where we made dresses, skirts, obviously, hat to make skirts, trousers, leisurewear, blouses. So all ladies out. We've known it, where we never touched it. We never touched menswear, but we covered all of them. We didn't touch coats. We didn't touch coats, but we did everything else. So you built this business up over an almost 20 year period. And then sold it, I believe, very successfully in 1992. That's right. Why did you use it, Celet? Or what was your strategy around that? Our strategy was that we'd grown our business. My husband and I had a couple of take-overs as well, because it was very difficult to grow organically. So we took over two other companies. And we were, at the end of the day, we were made an offer. We couldn't refuse. We had a very successful ladies' work, clothing business. We were very design orientated. We were making merchandise that was selling incredibly well. So we had something. We were innovators. Therefore, we had something that was very attractive to our competitors. Right. So who bought the business? A company called Claremont, who were a public company. But they, you know, to have a design is a very expensive part of a business, because you have to employ designers and you have to travel. And it's not in it. You have to invest a lot of money to have good design, which we did. And they were more into, they were much more into mass, big production. They wanted a cut-cost, so they cut the design element down. So they cut the innovation out of the business. And when things get difficult, if you haven't got new merchandise coming through, you suffer. So after they bought your business, they went bust. Really? So that must have been sad for you. It was sad, but you know, my husband said to me, "Love me, don't love your business." So I mean, I walked through. Did you? But that's easy to say it hard to do, probably. Well, when I, when I'd been in the business, I had the business now 20 years, I was very happy to walk away. Yeah. I'd done an awful lot in that time, you know, since I left school and worked for Martin Spencer, then I'd ran a business. And I was quite happy, you know, this offer came along. It was a very good offer. So I was happy to walk away. It's, of course, I was sad when they messed the business up. But equally, you know, they, I knew they were going to mess it up because if you don't invest in design, you're in trouble. Well, what you just said about innovation is so important to any business. So many people in any business? If you're not innovating, you become irrelevant. I mean, I always remember when we bought this leisure work factory and suddenly, you know, because I remember the start of leisureware of leggings and it all, all happening. And we took into M&S a pair of leopard skin leggings and they looked at them in shock and horror, whatever. Again, we did a trial. Now I'm on the other side. I'm the manufacturer doing the trial. Well, we started a trial originally of a hundred dozen five. We sold in that one season six thousand dozen pairs of these leggings. You can imagine how profitable that was for both of us. Yes. Yes. So you were still innovating right? That's how the business grew. Of course. Our business grew from being one line in a factory in Newcastle to employing three thousand people because we innovated and I was very good at innovating. As was my husband, he was brilliant on fabrics and textiles and between us. We were an amazing team. When you say I was very good at innovating, what made you very good at innovating? How do you think about innovation? How do you go about it? Very easy. You used to go to America about three or four times a year as a supplier to look at the shops because the Americans were brilliant at taking high-cuture fashion and making it very commercial. And we'd pick up and buy merchandise and copy it. Just have a look. Yeah. Have a look. Absolutely. And we'd pick, I mean, I have a very good eye for seeing what's going to sell. So being out there, really looking at what's available, what's going on? Absolutely. It's so important. And America in that time in the 70s and 80s were the four runners. Their stores were wonderful. They have amazing merchandise. So we copied. Yeah. Well, we've had other guests on the podcast who've done very well at business saying exactly that. I mean, we've sued a few times, but anyway, you always set us up. That was part of the cost. Absolutely. Absolutely. As I say, you have to innovate. As you say today, you have to innovate. I mean, look at Steve Job and Apple. Yes. We didn't do so well when he wasn't there. No, when they returned. It's an amazing company. Certainly. So what do you think about these days? Very few companies manufacture clothing in Britain. What's changed? Why is that? Because it was cost. I mean, at the tail end before we sold out, we were manufacturing abroad as well. So we still had our big factory place in the UK, but we've gone to Portugal, where we were manufacturing. Denham dresses. We've gone to Morocco and we've gone to Hong Kong. Right. And you were doing that because it was becoming more and more expensive. Because it was more and more. And also, if you wanted a garment that had a lot of work content in it, we couldn't afford it in our own factories because we couldn't pass that on to the retailer. So that was because of labour costs, probably. Yes. So pay more and more expenses for employed people. And the customers wouldn't entertain paying them off for the product. Well, the client wouldn't, like your customer wouldn't entertain paying them. Your customer being the retailer. The retailer. And also other manufacturers were going abroad as well. Therefore, we were had to compete with them. So this was a trend that you had to go with because if you didn't, you'd go out business. Absolutely. So that was sort of globalisation occurring. That was exactly. And that was another reason. It was a perfect time to sell out. Right. Because I know that manufacturers spend their life chasing going from one country to another to find the cheapest production. So you sort of saw the writing on the wall? We saw the writing on the wall. So the writing on the wall? So then, I mean, your third career. My third career. Third amazing career, I want to say, because it is amazing. You took a complete pivot and did something different. Well, what happened and why did you do that? Well, there's always a reason that things happen. I mean, my husband, we were enjoying retirement. We were travelling, we doing lots of wonderful things. And life was good. Sadly, my husband developed a heart condition. He developed something called heart failure. And we went to see his cardiologist who really gave him weeks to live. It was as black and white as that. So just to interrupt you with that. What is heart failure? Heart failure is when it can occur three different ways. It can occur if you have a heart attack, it can occur if you have something called car or my allopathy, or it can occur without for no reason. Right. And it's when the heart, the heart is a muscle. So when a muscle, when you have heart failure, the heart becomes enlarged, and it can either be a heart attack or one of the other issues that can cause it, a virus can cause it. So therefore, when the heart becomes enlarged, it can't pump as well as it did before it was enlarged. Therefore, the body builds up fluid. Right. And that's what heart failure is, where you get fluid building up in your lungs. You find people with heart failure have swollen legs. You become very breathless, you can't walk up stairs. It's very, very debilitating. Right. And he's sort of developed this condition. And my husband developed this condition. And the only treatment other than a heart transplant is medication. And that does, it helps, but it does, it certainly doesn't cure. Right. So you were in this situation. We were in this situation. What did you do? Well, we went to see my husband's cardiologist. And he said, you know, he gave us the bad news that things were very grim. But he said he had recently been to a presentation given at Bart's Hospital by a young cardiologist called Dr. Anthony Mayther, who presented a paper on something that was called stem cell therapy. And this treatment was happening in Germany in Frankfurt, where they were taking a patient's own stem cells and injecting them back into their heart. So, sorry to keep asking you to explain this. No. What is a stem cell? I must explain to anybody listening, I'm not a medical person. No, no, but just the heads up. All the heads up. So as opposed to any other cell. Yeah, the whole body is full of stem cells. And you've got millions of stem cells in your body. You've got them in your blood. You've got them in your bone. And you've got them in your muscle. So that's what stem cells are. Your body is full of them. And this science that they were talking about in Germany, where they were taking extractive stem cells from the patient's body. And with heart failure, they'd worked out that the best place to take stem cells from was from the bone, from the bone marrow. And they would then treat these stem cells in the laboratory, clean them and infuse them, and then inject them back into the patient's damaged heart. And they had scientific proof that by injecting them back into the damaged heart, it started to regenerate that damaged heart. That sounds amazing. So they were literally injecting their heart with stem cells. Yes, yes. And these were stem cells that had been harvested from other parts. Yes, and they were their own, but they were their persons own stem cells. Right. And this was new science. Right, new. Nobody did it. Like you, I didn't know what stem cells were either. I mean none of us knew. We'd never heard of them. Right. They were so new. We're talking now about 2003. So we're talking about 23 years ago. So this cardiologist back in 2003 at St. Bartz Hospital here in London shared this information, but then you, as I understand, went to Germany. Well, he told us it was happening in Germany. Right. And in my husband, no, didn't know, wasn't he? He's vocabulary at all. He never understood what the word "know" was. So he said, "Well, we've got to go." So, and he said, "Okay." So he said, "I want to go tomorrow." Anyway, by the next week we all went, "And he made the came with us. We all want to play into Germany to Frankfurt." But my husband had the treatment. Right. And how long did that take? The treatment itself. He was in hospital for two days, that's all. Right. And what was the result? The result was the mate. But when we came home prior to going to Germany, he hadn't been able to walk up the stairs. Because stairs are one of the big testing things when you have heart failure. Right. Within about two weeks, he was walking up the stairs. It was a miracle. It was like a light switch going on. It was unbelievable. So then based on this amazing result, you decided to set up a charity. Well, it was in, really. He was so incense that, because we were with Anthony, when you travel with somebody, you spend a lot of time and you have conversations and it evolved that there was no money in the UK going for this research. Right. And Ian was a poor. He thought it was terrible that it was such an amazing thing that had happened to him that there was no money for pioneering this treatment in the UK. So he said to Anthony, how much do you need to start this trial here in the UK? So I think he was being quite flippant, he said, oh, I need about six million. So this is 2003's four. Yeah. So Ian said, I'll get it for you. And he did. So he raised six million, what, and set up a charity to do this? He set up the charity first and then we raised the money. And the charity is called the Heart Sales Foundation. It's called the Heart Sales Foundation, yes. And that was founded by you and Ian. That's right. Initially raised six million for this research. And that went to Zimbabwe. That was the treatment that's happening at Zimbabwe, yes. But we have the most amazing relationship with Zimbabwe, the new hospital, because we're a charity funding this treatment. We've been working with them now for 21 years. And we don't put the money into a pool that gets just spread around it. We're only paying for what we are, they are treating, we pay for the technician that's dealing with it. It's a direct payment and it's working brilliantly. So how's the treatment involved and developed since 2003? Well, they're obviously fine tuning it as it's gone on. I mean, we now have a situation where we're treating. We did our three gold standard trials, which were very successful. And papers were published and it was. So what's the gold standard trial? What's the standard trial? Sounds like an important trial. It's just isn't an important trial. We did three trials. They're called gold standard because it's the technique and the way they have to do them. But one trial was treating patients who had had a heart attack. So when they were rushed to A&E, they were given the opportunity of having stem cells. The second one was patients who had had a heart attack and developed an enlarged heart. And the third trial was where patients for no reason developed something called cardiomyolopathy. Which again, it's like, it's a heart failure. But there's no reason. They haven't had a heart attack, they haven't had a stroke. It's just suddenly happened. And that tends to be much younger people. So we've done those three different trials. And the results? The results were excellent. I don't know if you've had a chance to look at any of our case studies. But when you go on our website and you look at our case studies, the results are unbelievable. So people who are interested in this, how do they find you, Jennifer? Well, they find us if they go on our website, which is the heartcellsfoundation.com. And you look on there, you'll find all the information you need. You can register with us and we will contact you. And providing you tickle the boxes, you'll be able to receive this amazing treatment. So tickle the boxes, in fact, you're a suffer of heart failure in some form of. But you've medically got tickle boxes because you may have other conditions as well. So I'm not a medical person, but they have to go through a whole medical system. They have to have scans to make sure that they're suitable. Right. And this is available to people. This is available across the country. Well, the heart cell foundation funded. It costs about £12,000 to treat a patient. But we fund it, yes. Fantastic. And well, thank you and congratulations for doing that. That sounds fantastic. So you're now, as I understand it, seeking to expand this service and raise more money. Well, what is dream or that this treatment should be available across the UK in every national health hospital? Not just where we're now, but where it's now available at Bart. So to be able to roll it out across the country in all the various national health hospitals, we now have to get that approved by nice. We now have to do a larger trial. So to do the larger trial, we have to raise 8 to 10 million pounds, because we have to recruit about 600 patients to do this trial. Right. And we won't just do it at Bart's hospital, we're doing the trial at different regional hospitals around the country. Right. And when you do the trial, there's a control group. Is that right? So some people aren't giving a procedure. Oh, yes. How does that work? And tell us what you're going to do about that. Well, that will be the same thing, because when you do a trial, you're half, say you're doing a trial of 600 patients. 300 will have the procedure, and the other 300 will have, as I call it, the real deal. You don't have to think they're getting the treatment. No, yeah, they don't know. They don't know. They don't know. This is the way the medical system in this country works. It's been constructed. I think it's universal, actually. I don't think it's just in the UK. I think it's everywhere. But when you do these medical trials, half the recipients have to have a procedure. We'll receive the procedure. So they don't know. Right. And then it's only when the trials get unblinded. And even say Professor Anthony May, that the stars thought he wouldn't know. Right. Nobody knows. So how long does the trial take? Well, it depends. I think we probably took, we've been young blocked them probably after a year. Right. So years were a data. But then that patient will be being checked up all through that year. Right. Be coming back for checkup. up just to see what their heart infraction was. Yes. Oh, well, I wish you every success with that. That's an amazing story. Is there anything you would say looking at the health system more widely would be welcome? I mean, lots of things you could think of, I imagine. Well, I think the national health, when it works, is brilliant. And I think our relationship with Bart's hospital has been amazing. We're working with a national health hospital. We're a private charity. We have this incredible relationship. And I would love to, if you ever had the time to come down to Bart's and see the heart unit, that is amazing. It is the state of the art. It's probably the best heart center in Europe. It is brilliant. I'd love to do that. Thanks for the invitation. Well, we'll organize that for you this year. So my experience of working with them has been amazing. I know there are lots of problems. I mean, hear about whatever. But I can't really express an opinion on it because I've not been involved in it. So looking back on your career, starting a charity, I imagine, is different from starting a business. Or is it similar? I mean, how did you never get involved? You started this charity on the back of a cigarette packet. It, my husband went to Germany, he had the treatment, came back, felt a million dollars. And somehow he got hold of a journalist. Don't ask me. I can't even remember how he connected with her, called Mary Ann Powers, who wrote for the Daily Mail. And she thought this story was amazing. And we got two, she was going to write a two-page editorial for us in the Daily Mail. And at that time, we didn't even have a name for the charity. So she said, "Well, you've got to get a name. You've got to get registered. You need a board of trustees." All these things were thrown at us and we just did it. I mean, we somehow, you know, we had a very dear friend who happened to be a high court judge who lived across the road. He became a trustee. The accountant became a trustee. So you put this together quickly? We called it together. Very, very quickly. Because she said, "When this article gets published, you're going to have so much money pour in that you've got to have a charity, you've got to be a registered charity." Of course. You started to register a charity and then we couldn't get a bank account. But then we found a friendly bank where it hand-brows and he opened a bank account for us. It was all down on the back of the cigarette packet. But the story that the journalist was going to write was a real impetus to getting everything else put in place. And I must tell you so much money poured in. Oh, I tell you another story that evolved from that. So communications, again, important? Exactly. Communication is so important. So she did two paid editorials. That's quite something to have. So she did one initially when he was going to Germany and then she did another one about six months later after he'd been to Germany. And as I said, the money just poured in. But winding the clock forward after the trial had now started and we had what we called a patient's gathering where a lot of the patients were invited down to Barts and it was the day a lot of the trials were being unblinded. And this woman came up to me. She said, she gave me a big hug and a kiss. She said, I can't thank you enough. She said, when we read your first article of the Daily Mail, we decided we're going to sell our house and my husband's going to Germany to have this treatment. And then the second article came out and we read about this wonderful charity that you set up and that it was all going to happen at Barts. We applied and my husband was treated. She said, I have my husband still with me today, but we still have our house. And so I cannot thank you enough. So we both finished up crying. I mean, she was crying. I was crying. It was very emotional, very, very emotional. Oh, sure. That's amazing. So. But I do think communication is important at every level. I think if you have to ask me one thing, young people really should try and learn today is how to communicate with people. So when you look at the charity now, it's different from a business in important respects. But how would you measure success when you evaluate the charity? I think I look at to this award, it's the wonderful families I meet. Because when you have something like heart failure, it's not just the patient that's affected, the whole family's affected. And I meet the families and I hear their stories. And it's very, very, very humbling actually when you hear how their lives have changed and what you've been able to do with them. And I also find it very satisfying when I see the checks rolling in. So on that measure, you can still measure income? Absolutely. I mean, I'm very on top of the financial side of things because we have to, the compassionate unit takes about half a million pounds a year to run. And we have to. The compassion unit is the one that reaches out. The compassion is the one that's operating now. Right. That's running on a weekly basis where we treat patients from all over the country. It's not a trial. It's just a regular unit. Whereas the new trial that we're going to do, where we need to raise the eight million pounds for that will be a trial where half the patients will have the placebo and the other half will have the real deal. Right. And I suppose the other measure of progress also says is scientific progress. Of course. And you've seen that. Well, we've seen it. And stem cells are now being used across the board, not just for heart failure, although it's the most advanced for heart failure. But it's being looked at from macrophage generation, liver disease, all sorts of things. Yes. Science moves it. Science doesn't stop. No, that's very satisfying. So just looking at your career as a whole, these three different amazing careers, chapters, let's call them. You've lived through several reinventions of yourself from fashion to philanthropy. What connects. What if anything connects those chapters for you? Well, I think the first and second chapter connected very easily because I went from one scenario to another and I had Marx and Spencer in common. The third one just happened by default. But again, I put the same energy into running or chairing the heart cell foundation as I did to running a business. I have meetings. I've had three Zoom meetings before I've come here to have this lovely conversation with you today, Jane. I have two more than I've had. And I like Zoom meetings because I can see the person. I am a visual person. I really am. You prefer that to talking on the phone? Yeah, I prefer that. Talking on the phone is okay. But when I'm talking to our office, I do it always on Zoom. I like to connect. Right. So the common theme I'm hearing it maybe is energy. I've got a lot of energy. I'm seeing that. And you've said, I mean, I've done my homework. You've said you never want to retire. No, I never want to retire. I just, I'm not somebody that, no, I like doing things. I like having something to aim for. I love having a list of jobs to do that I can cross off at the end of the day. I get that. And I do have a lot of energy. I really do. Yeah, I can see. So, you know, this is an important theme energy. What do you do personally, if I might ask you, to ensure that you are fit and energetic and feel out for the day? Is there any advice you can give to all of us? I've always believed in some form of exercise. I mean, it depends on, you know, what you're able to do. So what do you do? Well, I have a back issue. So I'm quite limited, but I do pilates and I have a physio who comes twice a week. And I think walking is very important. I think I, it says an easy way to go somewhere or a longer way to go. So I take the longer way. And I think going up and down steps is very important. Just moving. Moving, moving. I think it's really, I think sitting all day in front of a screen, it can't be good for you. So it really can't be moving. So it can't be moving. It's your message. Excellent. And what sort of impact would you hope to have over the next decade in terms of the work that you're doing now for the next generation? What we're hoping is that we get this next phase three trial up and running because that will be amazing. That will be fulfilling Ian's dream that this treatment will be available across the UK because heart failure is one of the biggest killers in this country. It's far bigger than any cancer. It really is very, very, it's very debilitating it affects the whole family. It also affects the economics of the country because people with heart failure cannot work. Yes. And that's the other thing we've found so amazing is that so many of our patients now have gone back to work. Right. And that's brilliant, isn't it? A, it's very satisfying for them, but it's also good for the country. It doesn't sound, I think you just said that it was £12,000 a person. It's not expensive. No, it doesn't sound ridiculous, it's expensive at all. So to make that more widely available? And I mean the hospital time is minimal and we now also have some patients that don't, they'll go if they live nearby, they won't even stay in hospital. Right. So it's, it's, and it's, it's not invasive. If you get no rejection, I mean, when you have a heart transplant, which costs, I think, I've, it costs about £300,000 a heart transplant, you've got the chance of rejection. Where is this? You don't. So this is, this is something to prevent that? Absolutely. I've actually worked along. I mean, you're very restricted. You only have about 100, 100 heart transplant a year. Right. Well, you have to have someone else's heart? Absolutely. And not just starting where we're going for it. And you don't always have a match. You know, you have to, you may have a heart, but it may not be a match for you. Yeah. So this is a good route to go. So this, I mean, I think stem cells are the biggest medical breakthrough of the 21st century. going to revolutionize so many times. different illnesses. I mean, looking back over your remarkable life and career, is there anything you would like to advise or recommend your young self for what you've learned and the journey since you were 20? Well, when I look back on what I've done, I'm amazed at what I've done and how I didn't have any fear. When I think of what I was doing in my 20s, I was a kid, but I didn't really have any fear whatsoever. I feel that anything I wanted to do, I was able to do it. So it sounds like you would have recommended your young self carry on in a fearless fashion. Absolutely, absolutely. But I think when you're young, you don't have fear. It's like if you learn to ski when you're young, you're fearless when you learn to ski at my age, which was 40. I was, you know, it wasn't the same scenario. But I do, when I look back and I think what I did in my 20s, it was unbelievable, unbelievable. But I think a lot of that was because I was very fortunate to be in that position that I was in, where I was dealing with very senior business directors who had a lot of support, a lot of comfort. They felt very, they all sorts of the word I'm looking for. They felt, they had a lot of confidence in us. They thought we were, I mean, it takes something when you take a big public company and they get rid of all their senior buyers and put young kids in their 20s in that position. You've got a lot of, have a lot of courage to do things like that. They were pretty fearless too. They were very fearless. So there's a buckineering spirit we're getting here. Buckineering, that's what we're doing, that's it. Absolutely. Buckineering spirit that every entrepreneur should be. But you see, I'm, I always feel that any, my solution now is there's always a solution to any problem. Problems occur and they do for me in various ways. There's always a solution and we can always find that solution. Through, often through innovation. Through innovation, absolutely. Well, I wish you every success with that. I really hope that trial is up and running soon and that we're able to extend this wonderful innovation and service to a lot more people. Well, thank you very much for giving me your time today and explaining what I'm doing and I hope that I'll accept my invitation to come to Barts. I always ask two questions at the end. Oh, okay. Jennifer, all my guests and so I'm going to ask you the first question is because we love Mondays at Reed. What is it that gets you up on a Monday morning? What it gets me up in the morning? Well, I always have early appointments deliberately because I'm not the best at getting up early. So if I have a nine o'clock meeting in my diary, I have to be up for it and I have to be ready for it. I mean, I always do my hair, I always get dressed. I'm so old fashioned. Even when we were in lockdown, I did that every morning. Oh, good for you. It's important to uphold staff. I think it is. I think it's terribly important. That was something else I learned to demonstrate standards. Right. And my last question, which is an interview question from my interview book, Why You Is Where Do You See Yourself in Five Years Time? Well, I'd like to still be here in five years time. I don't know. I'd like to, well, first of all, the trial will be up and running then, definitely in five years time. And we were made enormous progress and it would much more well known than it is currently. And me personally, just doing more of the things I enjoy doing, I mean, I love going to the, I'm very involved with the art world, which I enjoy. I play bridge. I've got a lot of interest as well as what is my charity. Very good. Well, we wish you all the very best with all of those things. Thank you for inviting me today. It's been a real pleasure. So enjoy the conversation. Me too. It's been lovely. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Jennifer, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reed, Chairman and CEO of Reed, a family-run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to learn more about Reed or the Heart Cells Foundation, you'll find all the links in the show notes. See you next time.