From Industrial Vineyards to Artisan Wines: A Conversation on Wine's True Identity

We've shot ourselves in the foot by creating these gigantic vignettes that need constant irrigation, constant pumping of fertilizers, or fungicides, and pesticides, basically so that they can even just survive and produce this liquid, this grape juice. A lot of people are tired of this. And I think what we try and do, what I try and do, and I'm what I think we need to do now for this very small part of the industry, is we need to bring wine back as a cultural product. Sit back and grab a glass. It's wine talks with all kids. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks. I'm sure it's camera-logged. We are at a way game today. We're way way in Paris, France. I'm embarking on wine Paris, but not what we're doing today. We're here with a master of wine, Isabel Lezgeron. She is the, what do you say, founder, senior of the raw wine movement? Of raw wine, yes, basically of the fares. That's right. R-A-W-W-I-A-D. Is it an acronym? Nope. No, it just seems you know, a brute or an adulterated. So, if you read the accolades about Isabel, you'd read about she's the first female master of wine from France and other accolades, the diploma W said. W said, yes, I'm about to receive a legion de ner. In France, for my services, rounded to the agricultural industry, from the ministry. So that's, you know, you could tie it to that. Tie it up. With these accolades and they've walked around. This is Isabel. She's the master of master of wine, a female. I don't, to be honest, I don't really think about it. You know, all I do is just spend my time trying to help the work of these producers. You know, it's interesting. You just struck on a chord because the French are so much better at this. I think more earnest and humble at these kinds of honors than the Americans are in the sense of you have them off program, which you learn. You protect your butter, you protect your cheeses, you protect the wine districts. I know in some cases that looks frowned upon because it's old school and old world, but you know, for me, looking the other way, it just feels so cultural. And so when you get this honor, it just feels. I mean, of course, you know, I'm proud of it. You know, I like achievements. I'm also quite academic. So I enjoy, you know, the studying part of what I do, as for sure, but not really. I don't do it for that. I mean, you know, I just do my thing, and then I think you just have to be focused and have a mission and then just try and accomplish that mission, you know. So that this feeling in this organization, I don't know, we spoke a couple years ago and I don't think you were just starting, but it was getting some traction. The industry was moving that direction. It's changed directions probably a couple of times since then, but you continued to grow. It's really a fascinating to watch. Yeah, it's fun. I mean, you know, it's a lot of work, as for sure. You know, I feel like I'm always starting up. Yeah, right. Because we add new cities. So now, you know, we started working in Asia like three years ago. I started, yeah, three years ago, our first event just after COVID in Japan. And so, you know, this is like a whole new culture. You have a whole new etiquette of doing business. I'm very lucky that I have somebody in my team who's amazing and who speaks Japanese. So this is how you were able to get into the culture. So yes, you know, it's exciting because whenever you tap into a new market, then you have to discover, you know, the rules of business and the heart and and also what makes, you know, the wine industry in that particular culture. So that's, you know, that's great. You know, so that is fun. I mean, culturally, that's like when I travel, I don't like the visit places. I mean, so I visited Ireland or I visited Paris. I like to like try and live it a little bit like maybe even upset somebody a taxi driver or two just just to be part of the culture. But it's the fact that you get to do that with this program and around wine being such a culturally expressive product. It's true. And actually, it's a real privilege because it's like you say, I don't just go to Tokyo, you know, to spend a couple of weeks and eat out and just experience Japan, you know, I'm there to really engage with industry and understand what's working, what's not working, how we can contribute, but also to understand the local production, you know, to get more to grips with the sake of production. So we can really have a have a fair, which is as local as possible. So it's a really a great way to experience a country and that's for sure. Well, I would think and I think that's this is the you're going to bring you in the bowels of some of what my thought processes are on the wine trade and what I'm doing tomorrow with this rethinking the wine business session. But that camaraderie that you just expressed going to a country like Japan, which is, you know, they understand wine and they love their good wines and they've, you know, they know how to adopt the lifestyle around those kinds of things, but that's what it really is. It's a sense of camaraderie of people in the industry because it is so culturally expressing. Yes. And, and you know, then what's really amazing is that so we do an event in Canada, you know, in Moeal, in Paris, in New York, in Berlin, in also in China and in Tokyo. And actually, when you meet people like the trade or members of the public, you know, I know I could take anybody out of that environment and have dinner with them and have a great evening. Actually, we all share the same love of nature, the environment. We love, you know, artisanal produce, things are really well made with with the heart. So actually, you know, that's what's amazing. I mean, the culture is very different and you have to approach things very differently. But actually, when you strip it down to the bare minimum and you know, you peel the onion layers, you know, the people are really the same. And that's what's really beautiful is that actually, you know, the community of people who love natural wine, low intervention organic wine, and they're just the same, you know, they're just the same beautiful human beings. Same feeling. So this event today, which is really cool. Was this a distillery or wine production facility? Yes, this used to be distillery. So if you wander around the building, you'll see still, you know, some of the spot stills in the south good area. There's like massive tanks. I'll show you later. And it was the first, I think it was the first commercially producing distillery in Paris in the, I think it was in the 19th century. And it produced until 1980 something. So it's an amazing building, you know, to be so close to the center of Paris. And you know, we have so much space. It's a, yeah, it's a really beautiful, beautiful building. It's, you find these places, because I know in Los Angeles, you're at the social club and that's, you know, besides the parking problem, it's really cool. Well, there's always a downtown LA is always a bit of a need to work. But yeah, I mean, it's part of, you know, that's what we try and do, you know, it's just, that's why all the production of every single fair you go to in the world, we produce ourselves. And then, obviously, we have looked at partners, you know, you know, for the team and stuff, but we try and just have always that same feeling. So it, it feels like a rewind event, wherever you are. And that's, so this is a fascinating, my friends are going to give me a hard time for saying that word again. But I'm going to go to the show and I deal with this at home as well on podcasts with people with new bottling ideas, a new packaging and we're going to change the way that people think about why all the stuff that goes on. But this actually is sort of a more of a foundation about why and more of a, no, we're going to dig in because this is who we are and this is what wine really is. It always was. Right. Before we, we introduced all the pesticides in the sector sides, the burgundians in the 11th century weren't right. They were raw. Yeah, the Georgia 8,000 years ago. Yeah, we were raw. And so I, I love the fact that you're growing because it seems like the premise of your talking about this culturally sensitive product is what's binding people together. And all this other stuff just seems to be fluff, just seems to be marketing, just seems to be ebbs and flow. Yeah, that's amazing. Like you said, because you know, when the situation right now, obviously around the world where people are drinking a swine, the consumption is going down. People are having to grow up variants. We are in overproduction. So it's a right mess and in a big crisis, even even champagne is, you know, is suffering. And I think we have created as an industry, we have created this issue ourselves. We shot ourselves in the foot by creating these gigantic vineyards that need, you know, constant irrigation, constant pumping of fertilizers, of, you know, fungicides and pesticides, basically, so that they can even just survive and produce this, this, this liquid, this grape juice. And, as a result, we've kind of manufactured a quite an industrialized drink that we, you know, we call wine. And I think people are, a lot of people are like tired of this, you know, and I think what we try and do, what I try and do, and what I think we need to do now for anyway, for this very small part of the industry that we are, which is 0.0, 1% of the wine industry, is we need to bring wine back as a cultural product, as a, as a, as a drink that is part of having a meal with your family and your friends. That is something that you open. And in enjoyed rather than like, you know, just down a bottle of like a $2 bottle, you know, on, you know, around the corner with, you know, with your friend and get drunk on. And I think, you know, now it's time to really think back about, you know, the, the, the, Vity culture, the agriculture, the, the, the soil health, what it takes to actually produce these, these, these wines, the amount of work in, in, in the winery, the amount of love, commitment, material, it's a lifestyle choice to make wines, like you're going to be tasting today. And, and that's our job now. It's just really to communicate that is about drink a bit less, drink better. And just like, remember, wine is, is part of like, it's a, it's a, it's a food, you know, it's part of an experience with your family, with your friends, have a glass, but, you know, and then I think then we can start looking at maybe, maybe as an industry, you know, that, that, that, that, that, most of the people, you know, most wines produced today is, is, is, is so cheap, it's not sustainable. And we can replace these vineyards with something a crop, which is maybe a little bit better adjusted to, to the environment. And, you know, the environment that they are planted in, and I think that's the challenge now, and, and that's what we try, you know, I really try and do this for these growers because they are really struggling, everybody's struggling, the whole chain is struggling. And we just need to basically go back to, like you say, go back to basics. It seems like the growth of the white industry, which is obviously profit driven, everything's profit driven in our world. You know, if you talk to Pauline De Carr, at, at, on any global, you know, it's always been a consumer product, and I read that, but when you go to the supermarket in Los Angeles, you cannot get past the wine, I, without saying 1000 shelf talkers. But let's go back to that point about this, the raw wine, the movement, because it's not really a movement in the sense that you started this idea of getting these people together and supporting them. And if you read all the books about sustainability and even the original book on, on biodynamic farming, Steiner, you know, you get, you, you begin to sense. Challenge now, and, and that's what a glass of wine should do, it should be right sense of time and place, take you there. That's what it does. Yeah, I mean, it's a magical product. Yeah. You know, really it's such a beautiful concept, you know, that you can harvest these, these grapes, you know, from these beautifully vibrant vineyards where there's like, teaming with life, you know, you put your hands in, it smells beautiful. You know, there's literally insects everywhere. And then you get these juice, you fermented by itself, it does not need anything, the magic of fermentation. And then you produce a liquid that tells you the story awaits from, you know, it just translates so clearly its environment. It's just magical. There's not a lot of other beverages like that, you know, and that's why it really needs to be celebrated and cherished. So the general consumer, this goes back like we were, I was in, I was in Paris, Texas recently, my daughter's moved there, and I got this great lesson on beef, because Texas, right, Barbara, I had a beef hangover. Actually, the next day, okay, beef sweats. But I had a lot of conversation with the cattle rancher and going back to the wine side, which is the vines are the grapes are what they eat and how and their ability to get down to the, the soil and the parts of the soil that create the character of the wine. I tell you where it's from. Yeah, the communication between the vine and the soil. And it's anything happens with food. It's a junior wonderfully organic foods from whole foods, the for instance, that don't have any flavor that weren't properly. Right. There's don't taste that great. And then last night we went to pull it over dinner and we had carrots that you couldn't believe. Right. That's just coming from the idea of a properly curated and grown fruit. Well, these all can and can okay, they're all anyways. So, but on the flip side of that, and this maybe in defense of the shelf talkers at the market. To bring the consumer to the table sometimes you start with something a little less interesting, a little less complex. And one of the greatest compliments I ever got when I sold wine was they started my regular series club. And they got bored with it eventually. And then they stepped up in the level of what I sold to experience more complex wine. I don't know. I don't I'm not sure I agree with that. Yeah, I'm happy to know because I'm glad. I think I think when you, you know, my favorite experiences when I do, you know, I've done a lot of wine teaching and I had a wine school. I've done programming. Actually, my favorite audience are people who don't know anything about wine, you know, they understand food, you know, so they have maybe, you know, an understanding of actually what maybe tastes nice or authentic. But people who don't understand anything about wine, you give them a wine of something really complex full of terroir, very expressive, you know, artisanally made, they get it. I think this idea of starting, you know, simple and moving up. I understand, you know, it's quite an intellectualized way of looking at wine. But actually, if you drink wine with your gut, your heart, and not your head, I think you understand the complexity. I think you understand that sense of place without necessarily having the words to express it. But it's like, you know, you give somebody a really good piece of sourdough bread or a really good piece of cheese. They don't need to start with a baby bell, you know, or a vastiary to then be able to understand whatever a good nor do. I don't know. Or patty, or whole whole table. You know, I don't think when you need that word, that thing. And but I think this is also part of what we've been sold, you know, as an idea that wine is such a, I mean, the marketing of wine is brilliant, but it's not working anymore. Well, I think to argue with myself in that comment I made, which you counter-med it, is the fact that I think I have found over the years, and I've brought a lot of people to wine, obviously, that it's almost universal when you present them. They properly made wine and honest wine. That almost everybody regardless of their position or where they've been drinking wines goes, this is really good. It's really good. And you know what I found also is, and which is what you do really well, is that when you tell people the story, you know, I recently went around to some friends who, you know, they like wine, they don't really have too much knowledge of it. And I brought wines from all over the world, but you know, with the story, you know, I was like, you know, this comes from these vines, you know, higher on a volcano. It was actually a wine from Samos, you know, reclaimed vines with some skin contact and an emphora. You know, and then suddenly, you know, and they just loved it. And it was quite a, you know, it was quite a out there wine, which they never experienced before. But they just loved to know, you know, the story behind the people who made, who made these wines. And I think that goes a long way because, you know, and I think this is what we need to bring more back into the equation is like the human element of how these wines are made. I think it's right on. I think this patch here, which is what is it? It's Les Amidevent, which was a group of enthusiasts in the 70s and 80s of my father's chapter. There were 150 chapters. Wow. I'll tell you the story of camera about what happened to the guy. But the point of this was to celebrate wine in novices and experts alike, Robert Moldavi would speak. I think Michael Broadman came and spoke. But it was to create an experience around wine and wine so experiential. You know, it's the same old adage. I could drink their favorite Italian wine in front of the lady. I'm, you know, this tastes different than when you brought home and kids are bugging you. And then that's the experiential part of it. And I really believe that part can't be shaken. Otherwise, you can market your way around all the other stuff. But the part of wine that's never going to be left by itself is the experiential part. People will relate to that bottle when they have it. It's actually in the DTC side of the world, but that was in and when my dad started business as a director of the supermarketer, we were the only one around. So that the story was, hey, there's this pharmacist from Cairo that's invented this idea of clubs and wine in the mail. And so that was a story. And if you tell the story about the wines, well, that's really what wineries have really that's what they get to do. Yeah, but it's very difficult. You know, that's the challenge because you can't really, you know, okay, so people are getting better at social media and Instagram. But, you know, I think we're kind of like there's too much of that going on and I think it's just hard. Well, there's a lot of clubs. Yes, you know, really, I mean, you know, which is what you do is brilliant because you can actually take down drill down and get the story. But the challenge is how do we convey when you're in a showboy in a restaurant that bottle the story behind the bottle, you know, beyond just the label is that's the challenge. And I think that's what makes it really difficult. And yes, I think we need to get better at communicating particularly with growers who just love to be in the fields and in the area of the market. Yeah, they don't want to see on camera, whatever exactly. And that's what they should get to do. Yes. You know, in a way, we should not need, you know, a fair like this where growers who make 50,000 bottles or 20,000 bottles or maybe a bit more, you know, 75,000 bottles. They should just be in their vineyard making wine and we should be able to just buy the wines, you know, it's it's for me to need you know that, you know, some of these growers them in 25,000 bottles and they have to travel, you know, the world for five times a year. Just yourself. - Yeah, just to sell, I mean, you know, 5,000, but yeah, 15, 20,000 bottles, they're people in there. Is that how is that, how is it hard to start work? - Yes. - You know, how does that work? And that's because we're in a world now where people, you know, they think wine is all artisanal anyway, you know, if you go in the street and say how is wine made today in anyway in the world, they'll sell it's just grape juice. So it's been so good at marketing this idea that it's just grape juice, that when you have a product, which is just grape juice essentially, how can you differentiate yourself? It's really hard, you know, it's really hard to justify a cost of production, which is, you know, maybe 7, 8, 9 euros, versus somebody who's gonna be selling some shite industrialized drink, you know, for one euro. It's just like how do you, you know, it's hard, you know, that's the challenge. - Well, that's what happened in America. I sold my company for a lot of reasons. One of them was, I didn't expect the market to improve and I'd done it long enough to just walk away from it, but somebody bought it. But what happened was about, maybe it was 15 years ago, this idea of bringing in 50 cent a year or a year, 50 cent a liter of stuff in a bladder, drop it off in New York, bottling on these brands, labeling with all kinds of fancy labels. And I don't think you can fool the consumer that long. You know, they get this case of wine for $80, you know, 75 euros or whatever, and it's, and you just finally go, this isn't any good. - I know, but you're still putting millions of people. - Yes. - And I don't see anything's changing. I mean, yes, they're drinking less. But I think it's mostly because the younger generation is really not drinking. But I think there's still a lot of drinking of table wine thinking, or it's the real, the real real real. - Yes, the real real, right. So your career did start that way. You started, when did you decide that this is not the raw part of it, but just the wine in general as part of this, you're stepping stone to it? - Yes, I mean, I grew up on a vineyard. So that's my background. And I grew up on a vineyard where, you know, we also found vegetables and cereal. We had pigs and, you know, basically everything we ate, we grew ourselves or produced ourselves. You know, my family were really struggling to make and smiths. And it was in Korniac, which is supposed to be quite, you know, a prestigious part of the industry. But, you know, this is the 70s, the 80s, where times were tough. And then I, you know, so I had, you know, worked a lot in the vineyard, did the vintage made wine when I was a kid. And then I went to university because I just wanted to. Essentially, discover, you know, discover the world. And it up in London worked, you know, worked in London. And then when I was 26, my father passed away. - Yeah. - And another moment, it really, A, you made me really miss home and realized that my upbringing had been actually quite brilliant. And somehow I just saw, well, I wanted to get closer to my dad and my family and I just saw, oh, well, I'll just understand wine a little bit more. So I went to W. He said, I did, you know, level one, level two, I don't remember what they're called now, but I ended up in the diploma program. I ended up doing loads of jobs, you know, in bars. And also I was, you know, like a bus. I was working for a wine tour company's making coffee on a bus, so I could travel to vineyards. Anyway, then I ended up doing them. And then the rest is kind of history, you know, I guess I got, you know, I got the bug, so to speak. I loved learning about wine, about the terroirs, about all these, you know, this universe. I had no idea existed, even though I was brought up on a great farm. And then-- - That's interesting. - But very little, a little by little, as I got stuck in the studying, I realized that actually, I was looking for this image ahead of my childhood, where you'd walk in the vineyards and you'd pick wild mushrooms, literally morals, wild asparagus, wild leeks, because the vineyards were really like, you know, very chaotic in a good way. And then later, you know, my family just actually converted to conventional, but that's a different story. - Oh, yeah. - Yeah. - That's very controversial. - Yeah. - But, you know, and then I realized this, the one industry wasn't that, it wasn't like people with dirty hands, or, you know, hands that were, you know, weathered and rugged by handwork in the vineyard, there was just full of people in suits and crunching numbers, which didn't work for me, but then I realized, there was this little parallel universe, you know, with people that met people, like Nicolai Julie, very early on, inspirational people, growers, farmers, tasted wines, I kind of, you know, changed everything for me and then, you know, and then that's it, you know, for me that, and it's not because I, you know, nothing this, you know, it's just, it's what resonated for me, you know, I wanna go around to a growers house and we have lunch and we go to the vineyards and we just talk about the soil, the insect life, and that's just what I love. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - This is what I just want to do. So that's what makes sense for me. I'm basically working, what, in what I do and working with these growers, I'm just in, you know, I'm at peace with myself because this is where I want to be, you know, there's no. - And you get to tell the stories, you know, I did not expect to be in the wine trade. I'm working for my father forever and I worked in the liquor store, but I did a liquor store in a wine shop, it was well known wine shop in the LA at the time. But I can't tell you how many days every past away few years ago that I don't thank him for putting me in it and learning to appreciate it. And I'll admit that the first few years was strictly mail order marketing, how to mail, you know, a million pieces of mail a year. I sent 33 million emails my last year in business. - Wow. - But there wasn't to sell more wine to the extent of was to enlighten people on what we do in the value of this honest glass of wine, which is the term I use now. - Yeah. - Because that's what you're producing here. And we were at the raw event in LA the last one. You know what, this focus on the idea of the raw wines for a second. I went to the Georgian table and there was this classically and for, you know, earthy, not necessarily moldy, but you know, musty version, whole table up full of it, which was clearly old school. In the right next store was another Georgian wine, which was a more contemporary bright feeling. And so the idea, the concept of the question is, you should wine go through the sort of evolutions for the consumer to the extent that they least stylistically are kind of more appropriate for a generation to come. Because this is clearly an old generation and this is clearly a new generation. - So what's the question? - So is that in the realm of staying raw or natural or organic by the dynamic? Can we make those shifts for the consumer? - In other words, do we play the consumer card because we need to produce wines that we think-- - I mean, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? Because it's chicken and egg. - You're right. - Christian, I think, in my opinion, and the advice I always keep to grow is, because people always say, "Oh, you know, can you taste my wines? What do you think?" And I think, you need to make wines that you're really happy with, that you love, that are the representation of your place. Don't try and change just because somebody gives you a comment of saying, "Oh, you know, this is maybe, "you know, one way or another." I think, of course, there is a style where people don't really want like heavily extracted alcoholic, southern French wines, right? We don't really want any more of the 13 and a half, 14 and a half alcohol wines because, you know, people are not really enjoying those. And I think sometimes it can actually kill the terroir or the great variety expression. I mean, in some cases, you need that, like in the case of Gronache, you know, sometimes you do need the alcohol to get the ripeness and all of that. But I think it's important that like in the case of, so, you know, like in the South of France, I've seen a lot of people make a lot fresher, they pick slightly earlier and make slightly fresher, crunchier, you know, styles of wine, which I think is also great. But in the case of Georgia, you know, I think a Georgian who's been making wine, you know, in their families' baking wine for generations, I think it's important for them to also stick to the style that they know, that is what they make at home, that they're familiar with, that they enjoy drinking. I think there's basically a place for both, because I think that's what also contributes to the richness, the variety, you know, people in Georgia who use, you know, all the growers here use, use slavery. And mostly some people, you know, sometimes have tank wines, but, you know, whether you leave your grapes in the slavery for, you know, that huge, very terracotta, whether you leave it for six months, and you get a really deep-colored orange-extracted, tannic white wine, or you just do a direct press, like they do more in the Western Georgia. I think there's just room for, so everyone, but yeah. - I wonder if it's not like a painter, right? Like, you know, you paint what you want to paint, you want people to know, it's piece of art, and that's what you stick with, and that's what you grow, and that's how you make it, and this is who I am. - Yeah, I think it's for exactly it. I think, you know, this is the one needs to be who you are, you know, and of course you need to, like I said, you need to adapt a little bit to what people might want to do. And for example, you know, sometimes I said to some growers, we only have red grapes, but make a blond anewa, because actually you need it in your, in what you're offering, you need to have maybe something which is a direct press and white, or maybe a light rosé, or maybe a blond anewa sparking wine, so you have a bit of. diversity, but I think essentially you've got to wake up at night in the morning and be excited about the ones you're making and love drinking them. Can you get excited about a non-alcoholic one? I'm not sure. But it should be honest for this, there's actually some good examples. If you go to Goodagawa, they've just released actually here, then you project called Gut Feeling and it's using botanicals from the vineyard. That's clever. So yeah, it's a fermentation, but I think there is a difference between de-alcoholized wine and a non-alcoholic fermented drinks, using other types of yeast that do not produce alcohol, more like the kombucha style with tea fermentation. And I think you can actually make some really delicious drinks. I'm not a big fan of de-alcoholized sparkling wine and that because I think that's just a different story. But in our sector, growers who are starting to make the no-alcohol drinks are doing really well because as we know, people are drinking less, they're more worried about wellness and they can make a drink which you know, it doesn't rely on a crop once a year. So it's more of a reliable source of income. I think it's a problem. But we have a few good examples. You should go and try them. I will because the ones I've had have been released. But you know, that's not my place to judge them. That people want to drink them. I just didn't have a glass of sparkling water or the lime twist, then try to muscle one of those down. But that's okay. Whatever it is. We were talking about the Armenian wine trade and the Georgia wine trade. I mean, Georgia has been marketing in America and they're way much longer than Armenia has. Armenia has only been able to produce what I consider close to world-class wines in the last few years. Which is amazing. Ascent, considering that in 1991, they just became free. Yeah. Personally, there's tons of induced grub varieties. Also, they use clay jars. I've never been to Armenia. We're going to get out there. It's quite a place actually. But I'm going to see the booths today at Wine the Paris. There's a couple I think are really, really quite good. Some again are struggling. But the point is you must stumble across and looking at the list of winers that are coming here, the regions that are being represented here at the show. You have Serbia and you've got Croatia and you've got Japan. I don't know if that's great base or not. Yeah, yes, it's great base for sure. What I know from the Armenian trade being, at least they argue that they're the first wine nation of the world. But that can be argued all over the place. Iran could say it's so congeuriged. But let's just say that part of the world. Wow, how hard is it to get traction anywhere to sell wine? And you have these small little vendors coming to you and is growing. You have more people than you did before. What are you telling them? I think you know, what's amazing with the community that drinks natural wines is that people are a lot more open-minded. So they're not so focused on Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, Sauvignon Blanc. They are not looking for the expensive Pinot Noir, coming from Conneros or whatever. What they are interested in is the human story, the human element, the revival of these indigenous group varieties in places like the Czech Republic, like Croatia, like Serbia, like Georgia. And I think people are so open-minded that actually this is such a great welcoming platform and community to come from these obscure places, much more than, if you are in the more mainstream market. So I'm not saying it's easy because at the moment nothing is easy. But this is the best place for them to be. So if they work organically and they make wines, naturally in the cellar and wherever they come from, they will find a molecule. If it's drunk made and the people are nice and they can tell their story, I think. I think that's an interesting thought because I had these conversations regularly with the Armenian wine because for sure, and part of the argument amongst themselves, which is our music good at, our language, is, well, how can we get away from our indigenous grapes? We're Armenia, we're red, blue and orange, and we're going to grow out of any acidity in Voskahat and things no one can pronounce versus, well, maybe we got to throw in some French varietals and show the marketplace. It's a catch 22 because if you do the shard days and the maralows and the cavernes, you're going to have to be shoved into that price range to try and compete, which is almost impossible. Fine, they have the capital to do that, but then if you're going to try to sell out any to the general public, it has to come through a program like this. There's no way you're going to get on the shelves. Yeah, but also, I mean, to me, it's ludicrous to think that you have a grave variety that is adapted to, you know, I mean, our media, presumably, just put an arid, dry, you know, weather. So I think if you've got these amazing grapes that are adapted to that particular climate, and then you think, oh, look, maybe we should plan something in your vlog because actually this is what's going to be selling. You're going to be reproducing the mistake that then in 20 years time, you're going to be grouping all your grapes because you're not going to have the water to irrigate them anyway. And then, you know, look at what happened in Chile, I think, is a great example of a program that was, you know, I think at the end of the 19th century, that was like geared towards French grape varieties instead of treasuring pace, which had been there for 500 years, and all by the time, you know, 300 years, and the 16th century, which is adapted, beautiful, makes stunning wines. And then, you know, competing on the international market with a whole raft of international grapes that now actually they can't sell, where half of the country is planted with base, you know, which doesn't need irrigation, which doesn't need that much treatment in the vines. You know, so this is like, it feels like they are these crossroads, well, in my opinion, they just need to focus on this point of difference because who needs another Slovenian broin, who needs another Slovenian, who needs another male of frankly, but actually, to see these amazing grapes coming from Armenia, but you have to be able to market it. I have a son-a-law who lives in the Paris, Texas, very small town. He's a. Well, I only know it because of the movie, obviously. Yeah, that's right. By the way, the movie was a shot there. It was only she who shot like a man who did something. He said for the one scene with the white falls out. Oh, really? Yes. But it's funny because my daughter just had her fourth child there and I had to send ahead a case of wine because my wife was going to visit for a month. So a case wasn't enough, but at least she got started. But I had to split it in half. I had to split my wife's a board of riddles. She likes mullows and cabs. She does like. She does not like the simple versions now. She won't drink Josh and stuff like that. Just forget my wife. Just a bad person now. But my son-a-law, I had to put the other half had to be tonnots, bogeyles, all kinds of interesting grapes out of any Georgian, what he loves Georgian ones because he's part of that generation. As exactly what you're talking about. And he's 34, I think. But he's that generation that has rejected sort of what his most parents didn't drink that much. But he and I shipped the case ahead and he when my wife was there, she says, "Yep, Bobby, my grandpa's name." I can see what he was doing here because half of me had had her. So it's interesting. Thoughts, do you have more minorities that were already established coming to join Rha or do you see people that want to get into the trade that are starting themselves at the beginning? It's an interesting mix and I think at the moment more than ever, I'm seeing people who hadn't actually felt they needed to take part in a wine fair in a little while because they were more established and they were selling easily and they kind of coming back because they realized that actually you do need to be visible and you do need to meet your customers to create that loyalty now more than ever. And I've also got a whole bunch of people who are now trying to export. So they've never been to Rha fairs before. Quite a lot of them. And they've never really been on export market because they were only rely on local markets. So it's great because these producers then their third, third, fourth vintage, real little gems, unknowns to be discovered. And I think this is what's interesting is it's Rha fairs. So you have all the classics, all the big names in the natural wine world, but also you have tons of people that need to be discovered. And so it's always exciting. It's not like you're coming and you're just tasting the same growers always. You give them honest advice? Yes. I mean, I had a guy bring me wine from Tamacula, crazy stupid name, really ugly label. And I said, you know what, you really want to step into the fray of marketing wine wholesale, three tier in the United States. Just sell to local restaurants and and be happy. Do you ever say that? Oh, yes. I mean, you know, I always say it's a particularly, you know, we saw it with COVID. It's amazing that you have a local network. But you know, sometimes you want to grow a little bit. And when you live in some small town, you know, maybe you know, in a Southwestern or whatever, you know, sometimes you also need to be able to export. [BLANK_AUDIO] if you want to grow or maybe try and sell your ones, for a little bit more or whatever. So I think it's good to have both, frankly, in this current climate, I mean, it's hard to predict what's next. - No, we can't. - But the other thing you have to just spread your eggs or have all your eggs in the same basket with this. - What do you think is next? - So I think, obviously, we're gonna see more and more interesting low, no alcohol versions. On the serious side, you know what I mean? With real protein, not just some water and then a dash of something, or the alcoholized, or whatever. But I don't know, I think from talking to growers and some distribution, I feel like January was actually picking up a little bit in terms of all drain. They seem to be a bit of an enthusiasm. I mean, so maybe 20/26 will be a bit better than 2025, commercially speaking. This is what we're all hoping for. But who knows? I mean, who knows? What's coming from North America? It's kind of a bit of a debate. - Well, the, you know, how everybody's feeling about wine right now, so. - How was that? - I mean, over a year ago, over a year, shot five shows with five makers. And they're great. They're sort of a board day in the style kind of thing. And well, we were a little slow, we had a minute in and produced and they're ready to launch. But it's now winter there and they don't want to show me walking in a vineyard when outside their snow on the ground. So they're gonna wait till they have, - Oh wow. - So they're gonna wait till a couple of months before they're launching, which is fine. But they were worried. I said, don't worry. I go, the wine industry so slow that everything I said, it was said a year and a half ago, it still pertains that it doesn't change that much, right? This is not gonna change that much. It's just the way the wine trade is. - I mean, we're gonna lose a lot of restaurants, a lot of in borders, a lot of vineyards, a lot of vines are being grubbed. I'm from Konyak, like the price of land has tumbled in the past few years. - Really in Konyak? - It goes like this. But yeah, I mean, nothing now. You can probably pick up a hector of plant in vines for 20,000 euros or something like that. You know, it was a lot of fun. - A lot of fun solutions. - But do you think, do you think even any gen Zier today, if you said, you know what Tony Port is or you know, Vincis Port is or do you know what Konyak is? You know what Armaniak is? You know what Ode to V is? I bet the percentage of generation doesn't understand any of that. And the value that, as Florence Cuthier had said, welcome to civilization. Like that's what it is. It really does represent that. And we don't have that because of our culture, because of our phones, because of quick and easy meals and all those things. - Do you've lost track of that? - Yeah, that's true. - The British lifestyle really in that case. - Yeah, no, I agree. It's, you know, that's why, you know, I think you have to, I mean, the way I'm handling the situation is, you know, I just need to think about, okay, our mission really is, to connect as much land as possible to organic farming. You know, in order to do that, we need to grow people who are drinking, you know, wines that come from clean farming and natural farm andation. And just not listen to the noise and like, how can we support? How can we tell the story? How can we communicate about the importance of soil, soil life? How can we sensitize, you know, add sensitivity, sorry, sorry, sorry, sometimes my English is not the best. How can we, how can we, you know, get people to be more sensitive to these issues? Because if you take them there, I think slowly, you know, is how people are, there is, not everybody, there is a small proportion of people who are eating better, who are more sensitive to animal welfare or going to, you know, being vegan or vegetarian. But how do we get these people to also understand that wine is the same, wine is food, you know, wine has to be, you know, what you put in your body is when it's important. So if you care about your food, then also care about maybe drinking, but like I said, do not drink so much, but maybe just drink you a little bit better. And you just have to plow through, because yes, you know, I'm trying to reach new, you know, new audiences, trying to go maybe more, communicating with more of the wellbeing, you know, and doing a phone in, in, in Japan in two months. And we're trying to communicate more with the wellbeing industry, like all people who go to yoga classes or how do we get them to sort of engage with, with wine, but not seeing wine as toxic, you know, something to be avoided because it's bad for you, but wine as maybe a glass with a meal is actually okay. But I guess the neo prohibitionists haven't helped that. And I see a lot of activity, and I know you've got a heavy schedule today, so we're going to wrap this up. - And we have people that are starting to arrive now just excited. - There's a book I'll try and find one for you is by Dr. Murray, who was written in 74 as a friend, is written in French originally, and that became in English. And it's called the wine is the best medicine. - Mm-hmm. - And I, whenever I have a French one maker in the studio, I ask him a question from him, because the wine is the curative properties of the wines are all French wines, because it's a French doctor. But it goes through, you know, Bogey-Lay and all the famous districts, and what it's good for it, it gives you a list of human, you know, frailties, and what wine is best to at least address the symptoms. And of course, worst cases, if you had a couple of glasses of wine, you didn't feel them better anyway, but it's a fascinating book when you're talking about the well-being, you know, somebody, somebody has sat down and gone through the molecular and chemical break down of wine and applied it to human, you know, issues. So it's kind of interesting. It's such a pleasure to see you meet you this time. - Yeah, thank you so much. - And it's exciting, too. - I have to go back to the hotel, grab Mrs. and make sure she's doing all right, and then we'll get back here. - Great, so I hope you enjoy the day. And I'll say thank you for visiting, and keep an interest, you know, it means a lot, because this is what we need, you know, spread the words, spread the words, spread the word. - Sure, I keep doing it. - I'll give up. - I was like, I got a plan to fly to Paris, I'm good. Cheers. - Okay, thank you so much. - Thank you so much. - Who are we? - Originally, and all the famous districts, and what it's good for, that gives you a list of human, you know, frailties, and what wine is best to at least address the symptoms. - Okay. - And of course, worst cases, if you had a couple of glasses of wine, you didn't feel them better anyway, but it's a fascinating book when you're talking about the well-being, you know, somebody, somebody has sat down and gone through the molecular and chemical breakdown of wine and applied it to human, you know, issues. It's such a pleasure to see you and meet you this time. And I'll say thank you for visiting, and keep an interest, you know, it means a lot, because this is what we need, you know, spread the words, spread the word, and then we'll give up. - As long as I got a plan to fly to Paris, I'm good. Cheers. - Thank you, good bye. - Bye-bye.