From Google to Nonprofit Chef: One Engineer's Search for a Life of Purpose (ft. Chris Ito)

Once you start moving and walking in a direction, the universe, I believe, opens up pathways for you. So just take that first step. I don't think about a safety net being below there. I think a walking on a high wire would know net below. So if you kind of think about having a safety net there, you're not really committing yourself. And if you're not fully committing, you're not getting yourself the best opportunity. Sometimes you have to figure a bit of a step out of yourself to almost watch yourself, and like you're in a movie and be like, "Hey, is this the hero that I want to follow?" Growing up in Oakville, a relatively small town at that time, you know, going off to Stolen California wasn't something a lot of people did, but that door opened. And as scary as it was, I just walked through it. And that's sort of the way I navigated my life. You know, when opportunities came up, if it was something in a direction I wanted to go or something that peaked my curiosity, I just pulled on that thread a little bit and just followed it and it took it one step at a time. - This is the lawyer-to-leader podcast. For lawyers who've mastered the law and are ready to master the rest, I'm your host Jonathan Cullen. Today, honestly, it's a special episode. It's not just because I'm joined by one of my oldest friends, Chrisito. It's because this was such an awesome conversation. Chris has such an intentional approach to his life. And he made career moves with incredible courage. And oh yeah, and there's an Elon Musk story in there. You don't wanna miss this. Two things before we dive in. If you enjoy the show, follow and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and YouTube. It helps us reach more lawyers who need this. And if you're ready to make the shift from technical advisor to trusted leader, head to JonathanCullenCoaching.com and grab your free lawyer-to-leader assessment. Now let's get into it. All right, okay, so our guest today is my good friend, Chrisito, perfect example of someone who made a brave career decision and we'll dive into that. And has a great life story to tell and I'm so excited to have him on. A little bit of background, Chris is, and it has an incredibly diverse background. And a crazy work trajectory, PhD in electrical and computer engineering, he began his career in tech in California. Eventually ending up at Google, Facebook. In 2021, he made a huge career pivot, followed his passion. He completed his education at the culinary institute of America in Napa. And next year, the next year, he left tech to become a chef. And he also became the president of Hope's Corner, a nonprofit that provides free meals and access to shower and laundry facilities to those in need in the Mountain View, California area. And in 2024, Chris returned to his native Canada and became a food recovery chef at a better life foundation in Vancouver, British Columbia. The foundation receives unwanted, but still good food from grocery stores and turns it into nutritious, delicious meals for those in need in Vancouver's downtown East Side. It has, and I love this, it says, it has recovered more than 30 tons of unwanted food producing about 300 meals a day for low income folks in need. And despite all these amazing accomplishments, Chris's biggest success, of course, is he once beat me in a hockey face. (laughing) So full disclosure, Chris and I are very good, old friends and we'll get into that, but welcome, welcome Chris. - Yeah, thanks, Todd, pleasure to be here. - Yeah, yeah. And we talked about it a little bit before, but the why, why did I desperately wanna have Chris on the podcast and to speak to the people that will listen to this? I think Chris, you have a rare combination of, I always thought you were the smartest guy in the room. We were great friends and you were always like, very athletic, I thought you had it, had it all together. And I was never surprised as we, we were friends at our Munchers School and how we drifted apart, but not as friends, but more in distance. And I would sort of see what you were up to. And I was never surprised at all of your accomplishments and all those things. And then one day we chatted and you told me about your career shift. And it wasn't the shift itself that got to me, although that was like 100 on 100, it was like your thought process. And that was several years ago and it never left my mind, it really resonated with me. And in the legal profession, I have not met, I have not met a single person, but at some point, isn't questioning where they are, how they got there, what they're gonna do. And I just thought your thought process, how you connected it to your values, to your family, it's gonna be so valuable to people. So thank you for being here. - Yeah, let's get pleasure. Thank you for that introduction and your kind words. Funny to say a lot of those things, that's how I describe you. So. - Ah, awesome, awesome. - Yeah, as you said, we've, we certainly have known each other since preteen. And despite the distance, I've also followed your trajectory and you've been a huge inspiration to me, not only your career, that's sort of a side note, but as a person, family man and your values, you're hugely inspiring. So great to reconnect for one. And happy to talk to you here on this one. - Yeah, thank you. And I'm glad you didn't mention anything about, beating me in face-offs, 'cause I'm sure that happens several times as well. Yeah, so Chris and I met in, I don't remember what grade, but in elementary school, I joined a new school and I moved to Oakville, Ontario and Chris was one of my early friends that welcomed me there and we played. We just talked about it now. I every sport imaginable together and grew up in that space. So maybe I'll start with, it was kind of funny, I can preparation for this, I know you quite well, but I also thought, let me just see what I find out, if you sort of Google someone, and there are some really nice pieces online that I thoroughly enjoyed sort of reading that helped me get some milestones along the way. And so I'm gonna dive into that a little bit. So the first piece will be a bit about escaping your prescribed plan, which I think does speak to people. So I saw that you mentioned growing up, you felt like you were on the rails, like to a prescribed career plan. First you were expected to be a doctor, then turning into engineering, the PhD, and very cool roles at Google, Facebook. I think that speaks to a lot of lawyers that experience this exact same pressure to follow like a rigid, prestigious track. How did you deal with that? Had you realized you're sort of spending your life climbing a ladder and that phrase, a leaning against the wrong building? What do you, what would be your thoughts on that? How did you think that through? - Well, yeah, certainly my path hasn't been a linear one. It's been an interesting path, definitely not one I would have predicted even five years ago. So it's really a step-by-step situation. And I'm trying to think about how far I could go back, but even to the point of being on the track of going into medicine, I went into university, thinking I was smart guy, sort of top marks in high school, like a lot of folks going in. And after my first calculus exam, I got to see it. I was like, wow, I'm not as smart as I thought it was, or I couldn't really sail through it as easily. And I started thinking, well, I started second guessing myself. I was like, well, if I can't get into medicine, what am I gonna do? And so I took engineering, actually, as a backup in case I couldn't get into medicine. So I became an engineering major in my second year. I took a bowl of a bunch of pre-med classes along the way. Somehow managed to get a med school interview. I got into, I got one med school interview as an engineering student. And I gotta tell you, it was the worst interview of my life. You know, like the biggest moment in your life, and it was just the worst interview. I was the last person of the day, you know, 400 people, people in there were staring at the scene. Yeah, for like 100 positions. At first it was 3000, interpeople applied. Oh my God. And got down to 400 view interview, 100 people that select. I remember being in the room, people were, you know, staring at the ceiling, staring at their watch. And I was like, holy cow, this is not going well. And, you know, I knew before I left the room that that path wasn't going to happen for me. And I officially found out a few months later when I walked into the admissions office, having to be a McMaster at St. University. And they told me and I said, okay, that's not too much of a surprise. And again, having a backup plan, I was applied to a bunch of engineering grad schools. And the same kind of story. Like I was applied to these big schools, and you know, Harvard, MIT, et cetera. I rejected from all of them, but I hadn't heard back from Stanford yet. And I was like, you know, I wasn't really holding out. I hope. Same day I got rejected from med school. I go back to my computer and I open my email. And there's an email from the administration office, from mixed admissions. And I was off to California from there. And so, you know, I had a plan. I started making these backups. And then, you know, life started opening up doors. You know growing up an Oakville relatively small town at that time. Going off to Stolen California wasn't something a lot of people did. But that door opened and as scary as it was, I just walked through it. When opportunities came up, if it was something in a direction I wanted to go or something that peaked my curiosity, I just pulled on that thread a little bit and just followed it and it took it one step at a time. And so going to California, I sort of fast-forward this a little bit. I have coming back to California, back to Canada, finishing my PhD there and then coming full circle to go back to California to work in Silicon Valley. But that decision to go to California in the first place, to go to Stanford for my masters, really paved the way for the rest of that. Because from there I was able to go, you know, as you said in your bio, you know, I worked at Google and I worked at Facebook. These big engineering companies, a lot of fun stories. So see with those, maybe we'll dig into them. But it was just sort of one step at a time. You know, something made me curious. I would just go in that direction and it could meant, you know, I had spent a lot of time in one thing. That was okay. You know, I felt like that time was never wasted. You know, a lot of people say you could always go back. I'm sure you've heard that yourself about your own decisions, right? And while that's kind of nice, it's in a way, a little bit of a safety net, but I don't think about a safety net being below there. I think a walking out of high wire with no net below. Because if you kind of think about having a safety net there, you're not really fully committing yourself. And if you're not fully committing, you're not giving yourself the best opportunity. So every time I made a change, I just didn't look back, you know, Med School was in the rearview mirror that I became an engineer. Then I decided to go to culinary school. Engineering was in the rearview mirror. There were bad experiences. In fact, everything I did and then I went into a new thing, even though that new thing was completely new and fresh, I came to it with all of this experience to your point at the very beginning, even though I don't come from the legal profession, you have experience that you can apply into a new field. And in fact, I think that's one of the most interesting things happen. It's because you're bringing a new point of view as opposed to everybody else. And that's just the way I've lived my life. And I continue to live it. It's just, you know, there's something interesting as well about doing it differently and braiding from perspectives. And so, yeah, so it's sort of a long way. Because I can relate, yeah, and I can relate to something you said there about like pulling on threads and, you know, if I were to dive into that a little bit, one of my weaknesses is, and it's like the, you know, your strength become your weakness, I might deep dive on too many things, you know, like, oh, that's interesting. I'll go that way. And it is a strength because you get like multiple points of view and of interest. You can also sort of like get bogged down. How did you balance sort of like interests and focus? Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, for one, the direction that I went and when there was some interest or curiosity, I tended to follow my instinct on it, right? And you just kind of follow your gut. And I would just keep following that until that interest sort of started to subside. And there was some sort of signal like, okay, I've taken that path as far as I could go. Maybe it's time to walk on a new path. You know, so I often like, I've been like this path inology, just the literal physical paths that you can walk. Sometimes you walk a path and it's, you just reach the end of it or you reach a fork and you just need to turn to another side. So while you're on that path, you're as focused as you can be. When I'm with you right now, I'm trying to be here as much as I can, be as presently as I can and not think about anything else. At the end of this call or at the end of that physical path, it's just time to move on to the next day. Nothing has meant to last forever in interest. Change, you know, some people can last in a single focus thing for their whole lives and there's something that I admire about that level of mastery. But imagine you're in your high school student, Benjamin's in high school right now, he's speaking as electives and he's trying to figure out what to do in university. I'm supposed to know what you're going to do and focus on for your whole life. At it says a teenager, let alone in your 40s or 50s. And who's to say, you have to do it your whole life or you can't go left and then keep going left or maybe make a U-turn, you back go back right. So I think about being too invested in something in the best sense of saying, hey, this is great right now. I'm going to enjoy it for as long and as much as I can. And when it's running course and it feels like it's time for change, maybe listen to that. Yeah, yeah, that's good. Tell me about the time in Silicon Valley. How did that impact you? What did you like, not like? Yeah, so that time it was such an interesting period because I moved there in 2010 and it was a real high point for the tech industry. A lot of things were booming. Google had just gone through an IPO. Elon Musk wasn't crazy yet. He was doing something really interesting. He was doing some really interesting things with Tesla and SpaceX. And when I went there, I joined this sort of small, medium-sized engineering firm. I was in the industry, fiber optic telecommunications. So you could kind of think of Nortel, type of equivalent old Nortel, I guess, from Canada. And those always just kind of seemed like my options. So there was just like a small niche industry for me to be in. And it was like, okay, well, I'm here. There's not a lot of companies doing this, not a lot of companies doing it really in the world. But then Google started investing in fiber optic tech and Facebook did. And they started doing really interesting things like satellite communications with optics. And so my world started opening up. And so again, going back, just going back to being in California as a master student, it made the path a little bit easier to go there to come back to work. And so when an opportunity opened up at Google, I applied and I didn't get it. But I applied again. Another role came up and I didn't get that either. And so I think it was maybe my third or fourth time. And maybe the fourth time something reached out to me and they said, Hey, your background is kind of interesting. We've got the secret project at Google. I think I can talk about it now. This is 2014. And they don't do it anymore. But they brought me aboard to work on this satellite communication network. So they're building this satellite network. Their goal was to launch 800 satellites in space. And that was going to provide the world with connectivity. And so I was on the optics team. And I was developing the inter satellite laser communications system. Wow. Okay. So I'm trying to mentally remember what I was doing that year. Yeah. You just describe like an Austin Powers movie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it gets it actually if it gets more wild because so I was there this 2014, you know, Benjamin, my son, he was five years old. Charlotte was three said little kids. And you know, I'm working at Google. I want to kind of make my mark there. Do well. Right. Four months in. They kind of bring us all together to say, you know, Larry Page, Sergey Brin, they want to pull the plug on this. You know, this is going to cost you much money. It's going to take, you know, three times as long to launch as planned. And so they're not pulling the plug. So a few months in, you know, I'm all excited. I'm joining this new company. I'm out of a job. But that same day, the person who brought the idea to Google, he sort of had writes over what's called the spectrum, right? The ability to control a channel for up and down links. This guy named Greg Wiler. And he invited a bunch of us to his house in after 10 California. So if you or any of your listeners have ever been to California, it's for this suburb of Palo Alto, which is pretty much like one of the wealthiest places in America. So, you know, I've got this map and I'm driving to his place. And, you know, these, these mansions, like bigger than I've ever seen, really. I get to this address and Skate opens up, start driving down there. I don't like, oh my gosh, that place is massive. And then I turn to the right and I realize I'm looking at the pool house. And yet, and he has the place that he lives. That was like an indoor basketball court. It's like, you know, it's just, it's all these things you read about. Then it's true. Like there are these wild, wildly rich people that have these elaborate places. And so he invites us there because he wants to roll it out into a startup. And he says, well, I have this partner that I'm going to bring along. I want to choose to grab. He's going to be here a little bit later. You know, I'm looking at my walks getting late. I've got these little kids I've got to get home to. I'm like, okay, I'm going to do this guy five minutes. I'm out of here. And then look, as you said, like in a movie, this guy kind of walks through this. archery eyes in the shadow and kind of comes out. He's like, I can see it's kind of an imposing figure and it's Elon Musk. So Elon Musk walked in and then they Elon Musk is his partner. And so they have this idea that they're going to take over this project, launch all these satellites into space. Okay. Right. And so long story short, they have a fallout. They have a falling out and that project is what turned into Starlink for space X. So I was part of that original team and had the opportunity. It's actually joined that. And so you asked question a little bit earlier, how do you decide to either dive deep into something or what to make a turn? And that was one of those moments. Right. There was an opportunity to dive in in deeper, which is to join this exciting startup, work with Elon was kind of a hot shot in Silicon Valley at that time. Relatively new. Like you had Tesla was going successfully at SpaceX. And you know, I was going to be part of this exciting thing. You know, we're going to move down to Hawthorne. I was going to work at SpaceX. And I just like just kind of like literally step back and be like, wow, does this is this really a line with what I want to do? Not only my career, but my life. Right. That would have totally changed the trajectory. Of course, Jenny, my wife Jenny was part of the conversation. You know, your partner always has to be. But she was super supportive. She was like, you know, we have our life here and we have everything. But if this is your dream, let's do it. I'm in. And sometimes, you know, you kind of looked for your partner for support. But then other times like a partner or friend, sometimes you're sort of looking for them to get an excuse. Like if she said, no, you know, we hear kids are little, I'd be like, Oh, yeah, I would have done that if you were supportive. I got it. But you know, I was like, Oh, darn. Okay. Now the decision is on me. But it was, it was just again, one of those turning points where you like, okay, you could go left. But and some people I work with did, but I just decided, you know, I didn't really align with. What I want to do with my family, you know, I knew enough about Elon that time. It was like, that was going to be my life. I would live basically in SpaceX. And, you know, like you and I'm sure a lot of the people listening, family life is important too. I know it's not always easy to balance that. You know, work by balance doesn't necessarily mean on a daily basis. There could be different seasons. But it has to be part of it. But the balance part, but the part that you value the most. And to me, there was nothing more important than my family and being with them. And, you know, nothing at shinies that offer was going to pull me away. It's difficult to do. But oftentimes, I also find that you, it takes you a very long time to make a decision. It's probably because you're trying to convince yourself of something that you already know. Right. And so if I was sitting on it, and I was trying to convince myself to do it, you know, and I did for a couple of weeks, you know, Greg Wiler would email me, it's like, hey, Chris, if you made a decision, I'm trying to form a team here. If it takes you that long, you already know. You know, you know, and you're good. And your head is just trying to convince you of what you're harder already knows. So sometimes even listening, looking at those pauses, I mean, like, hey, this has taken me a long time to decide, maybe I really already know the answer. And I'm just too hesitant to do it. A lot of different examples of that. But I think that was a key one. And yeah, so I stand up saying at Google, even my road at Google was kind of twisting and turning. You know, I started off. There's an electrical engineer, ended up being product manager, Google Home sent me around the world. I was in factories in China and Vietnam, and got to see different parts of the world and how different people work. And that is like the discrepancy between the two sides, you know, here we are coming. This fancy team from Google and all these people were there working and sometimes living like in the factory and sleeping in tents. So I saw all of that. And it was, you know, just another opportunity to take a step back and be like, gosh, you know, now I'm away from my family. We're spending all these time, all this time. We're making, you know, millions, literally millions of devices that are probably going to end up in the landfill in a couple of years. No shade on people who work on it. But I took a pause for a second. I was like, you know, it's sort of fun as this experience is. This just isn't for me. You know, it's not how I want to spend my time. It's not worth being away from my family to do this. So I guess it just took another moment to step back and just take a look. Like sometimes you have to, you know, figure it out at least step out of yourself to almost watch yourself. And like you're in a movie and be like, Hey, is this, is this the hero that I want to follow? And to just decide like, you know, there are all these people that I admire. Those people I look up to and I still do. And I find inspiration. But ultimately, and this is probably the, my favorite line of a book. It's the first line in David Copperfield, which is, you know, whether I shall turn out to be the hero of my own life or whether that station shall be held by another person. These pages will show. And just constantly decide be the hero of your own life. You know, do that thing that makes you want to follow you. Not like the followers like Instagram followers, but you know what I mean. It's like, hey, I want to, I'm interested in what that guy's doing. I want to get some more of that. Yeah. Love that. Wow. I'm tempted to make the next 10 questions about Elon Musk, but I won't. Yeah, we could talk about that later. Before we continue, everything Chris and I are talking about today, especially in the space of like changing careers, big decisions, you know, how do you think about that? The lawyer to leader assessment at JonathanColonCoaching.com was built exactly for this kind of thinking free five minutes in the show notes. Let's get back to it. Yeah. So post Google, what happens? Because now I'm, you know, I'm desperate to get to your decision about moving in to your phase as a chef. But I'm also like learning so much more that that decision did not come from nowhere because you just gave me two decision points three decisions, many that you face that same inner thought process. And I'm glad we're having this conversation because I did not know those things. And that's now informing me a lot about how you shaped the pathway. But I don't want to skip the part on, you know, what happened after Google and how do you exit Silicon Valley and all that? Yeah, absolutely. So during my time at Google, you know, you often have vendors, people who are trying to sell you your company things, especially at Google, you know, they're going to buy, you know, many things at, you know, a very high price point. So you often get treated really well. And so one of my colleagues was sort of one of the decision makers and somebody that was trying to sell them something invited him to like a 49er game, you know, and you know, how these kind of meetings go. You're there. They kind of shmooves and okay, they're going to pitch the sale. But he had an extra ticket. So he's like, okay, do you want to come to this 49ers game? He treats her in town. Sure. Don't often get a chance to go to an NFL game. And this was in November. And I remember why to reason. We were in the stadium. And it's this beautiful open stadium. And California, you can count on sunshine, three hundred sixty four days a year. This was the three hundred sixty fifth. It was pouring. And I was like, we were just getting dragged. And so we had to take cover and, you know, you're kind of taking cover and not really watching the game. Thanks to the coming up, American Thanksgiving. And I asked my colleague, Gauden, it's like, you know, it's making conversation. What do you do for Thanksgiving? They said, me and my family are going to go cook at this local organization called Hope's Corner. We're going to go there. We're going to make Thanksgiving meal altogether. I was like, oh, really? You're doing your kids? And at the time, you know, I had the young kids, as I mentioned, you know, Benjamin was six years old. And I thought, oh, well, maybe I could do something like that. You know, I can volunteer, give back to the community, and also call him. And so I signed up to volunteer. And so, you know, one Saturday morning, it was like, you know, one Z pajamas and waking him up and like, hey, buddy, we're going to go, we're going to go cook for some people. You know, his revenue is little, I was like, what, what are we doing? And we ended up going to this corner, hope in Mercy Street. It's the name Hope's Corner. And we show up there. We make this big meal. We serve, you know, maybe 300 people came in from the streets, you know, low income, almost people. And I saw Benjamin, like handing out eggs to people and just sitting with people and just kind of seeing them just to say, like, has a child, let's see, you know, people, they're no different. And I was like, okay, we got to do this again next week. And we did it. week after week after week and after time I was like you know this is one of the best parts of my week. And it sort of planted a seed it was like well you know how can I get more of that in my life you know I'm working at Google I can volunteer here which I'm doing and that's you know sort of giving me an opportunity to do a piece of what I'm doing but I want to more of that. And so even though I was you know sort of doing well at Google at Google Home I was sort of looking outside and and I didn't know what to do but I knew that I had to start moving in the direction of that feeling of what I got volunteering at Hope's Corner with Benjamin. I couldn't pinpoint it but I needed to move towards that feeling and an opportunity opened up at Facebook in their social impact career and I thought well that's kind of interesting it's a little different than the engineering I'm doing it's not exactly in the charity space but it's a tech company working to support charities so I was like okay that's moving in a way that was me moving in the right direction and so after I've done that for a while I found myself still you know having that inkling to continue to move closer and closer into that non-profit space and specifically in food and it and it wasn't only Hope's Corner you know I found myself outside of work reading chef memoirs reading cookbooks watching documentaries and the reason I share these parts of it is that sometimes we do a lot of things outside of work that we're just interested in doing it's not because somebody's telling us to read something or somebody's asking us to it's just what we want and the point is just pay attention to those things because they're actually signals telling you what resonates with you personally like what your truth is and then you just have to listen to them and then and they might not be big career shifts like like I did like you did you know they could be little dips in the water like people have different ways of doing it I happen to be kind of a cannon ball type of guy and so you know ultimately you know Jenny and I we would go up to Napa which is like two to three hours away from where we lived we drive up there spend the weekend one weekend we were up there while I was at Facebook I was like do you mind if we do a tour of the culinary institute culinary institute of America that was there and she was like yeah that's cool let's let's go stop in we stop in I'm sort of looking and you know I was I'm just an awe like by the beauty of it everything about it just was like wow this is I need to get this I don't know how but I need to get this in my life and I left and we Jenny and I got an Uber you know we got into a couple wine tastings and they were heading to another one and I was like you know maybe when the kids are graduated and they go to university I think I'd like to go to culinary schools this like as in my retirement and she was like well why don't you just go now and I was like well I'm like I'd go now like we've got you know our kids are sort of preteen we live two to three hours from here I've got this job you know you've got a good job and I'm like I was making excuses right from the guest go like back to back to the earlier point I was like oh man now she's like oh you can do it I was like oh my gosh do I have do I really have what it takes to go through it they've earned my all talk and so I remember that summer we it was you know in during covid we had read to this place and of Barbara we were working remotely there down south and and it was in the month of July so the application deadline was the end of July and it had it open you know I logged in I created my count and that's like I'm really gonna do this and so because I didn't want any more of these like hard choices I was like no I'm not gonna apply forget it maybe maybe next year you know we can always say that maybe next year the goalposts can always move so July 31st passes were in August I get this email because I signed in I created an account they're like we have a couple places left there's time to apply I was like oh okay universe you're not giving me an easy way yeah yeah and so you know I just open that email I wrote my essay in like 10 minutes it was so easy like why do you want to come here I talk about nooks corner you know I talked about the desire to learn culinary skills so I can apply the in a space where they're not always applied oftentimes for lack of a better term soup kitchens have a lot of volunteers who are really well-intentioned but don't necessarily have the culinary skills and I'm not just talking about the ability to produce a good meal but the ability to be efficient in time and economically so these are skills that chefs really have to develop and the ability to use any ingredient and not waste it use it to its maximum potential so these are all the skills I wanted to use and I wrote those in my essay and you know what at 44 years old that was a student again and I was a student with 24 year olds oh my god and I you know I just saw myself like them they probably saw this dad who was coming around and not but you know what they were the nicest the nicest folks you know I sat with them for lunch just that experience too like often we hang out with you know people that much younger gave me another perspective and I was energized by it you know I to be able to go to school be a beginner again and it doesn't have to be in school but to be a beginner again that is just so invigorating and it's and it's liberating too like we can talk about this if it makes sense for for the for the interview but you know after culinary school you know working in like my first job was in a missal and star restaurant I'd never worked to the kitchen before you know and then like talk about being a beginner yeah I walked in there and I'm like like not only am in my you know in a kitchen but a missal and star kitchen and and so you terrified I was terrified I was so stressed I would call Jenny before service like Jenny I don't think I can do this you know I'm get I get crushed every night I'm not ready and she's like it's okay she would talk me down she's like talk me down off the ledge and and I I just went by this motto which is going back to culinary school when I was living out of my air stream trailering that we could talk about that but I was living on a farm like on my trailer and I had this posted note on the door that I could see what I woke up it was not a big space so you can really see everything but it just set show up today and you know for your audience and you know what people are thinking about these big decisions and where they're going to go it's so overwhelming you know it even for me it was it was overwhelming to think hey okay I'm going to go to culinary school what's the next 20 years going to look like yeah that's too much to think about yeah all I knew is I needed to show up today the best I could and something I was really driven to do and just trust that if I did that day after day that doors would open and I could just take the next step we talked about this offline last time I shared that one of my favorite books is the line of trackers got to life and one of my favorite quotes in that is I don't know where I'm going but I know exactly how to get there hmm hmm yeah and you don't have to know and how can you okay who can say looking back maybe a few people even 10 years down the road where you'd be right at this moment no 20 years no 30 years forget it who knows hmm but no direction and the direction is with what that got feeling is what are those things that you're drawn to what's pointing you what's pulling you somewhere and that's just the north star you don't have to know the exact kind of you just have to know and trust in yourself in the process that's the I know that's the if the part where it's I know exactly how I'm going to do it it's because you trust yourself and you just trust it if you do the best you can and you're doing what's in your heart then you haven't made the wrong decision hmm so so so much in that I'm picturing you a few phases separated but you know we began talking about meeting Elon Musk and I mentioned and now you're in the trailer farm yeah wizard you know and I know that the people listening to this they're going to be professionals that who are by definition like they've reached a certain level of financial success and they're they're feeling comfortable they finally they went from probably students who had nothing worked hard in law school they've achieved what they've achieved they're probably worried about shaking that you know structure was there a moment that you thought what have I done or like is this crazy or like you know moment moment many Yeah, yeah, yeah, continuous. Yeah. Yeah. like literally almost on a daily basis because something would happen because you're already stepping off the prescribed path, right? That path that you've dug that trench on, that's so comfortable that you could do it on autopilot. Now you're thrown into the fire. And it's like, okay, now let's see, right? And oftentimes when you're thinking about that moment, what have I done or there's some kind of obstacle, that just means you're challenging yourself. And if you take the mindset, but that obstacle is put in my path to show me how much I really want this. Do I really want it or do I just want to talk about it? 'Cause it's a talk part, it's the easy part. Then when you're in it, so okay, now you have to stay in it. You have to work through the hurt because it's gonna hurt some days, right? It's going way back. I thought that it was called that often, but I'm not called Dr. Edo anymore. In fact, somebody who might be 20 years younger than me is telling me what to do in the new setting. And rightfully so, they have much more experience than me in the kitchen. They're my new members. - Humbling, very humbling. - Very humbling, very, very humbling. As I said, there's power in being a beginner again. But yeah, to your question, just stay in it. We talked about sports before and I think sports can be a great teacher too. It's like oftentimes the person who wins is just the person who stays in the fight a little longer. I think the hard part going back to an earlier question is knowing is this the fight I still need to be in or do I need to be in another fight? And I don't think there's an easy answer to that. But that compass is that feeling inside. Not here. This is trying to keep you safe. And keeping you safe is probably going to keep you in the position you're in. Because your mind's going to try to talk you out of it. I mean, that's many, many years of evolution that's that reptilian brain that's there to pur safety. It's not there for pushing us for something great. It's not there for saying, hey, I only have one life and I want to make it epic. That's here. That's here. So listen to that. Sometimes when it doesn't make sense, did it make sense for me to give up my big salary and compensation at Facebook and become a student again and pay to do something and then take a massive pay cut? No, it does not make sense on paper. And then, you know, but I knew the thing I did know was that I would regret it at some point if I never took a chance. And to me, to me, that was would have been more painful than the quote unquote pain of leaving a salary. Can everybody do it at any stage? No, depends on your personal situation, your personal comfort with your finances. But I would say it's really easy to move the goalposts all the time and just to be like, I'll do this next year and I'll do this next year. Yeah. And so that's, but that's just something every individual has to reconcile. The way I do it is, yeah, okay, I'll look at my finances if we talk about that one and say, yeah, I feel like we're in a good place. You can always pad, pad it more, but do you want to just keep padding it and not enjoying what you're doing to me? That's more costly. Yeah. And yeah, it's cliche, but we're never as young as we are right in this moment. And so if you think you're gonna have more energy later, likely. (laughing) Yeah. And I remember calling you, I had a conversation with you while I was walking my dog, I distinctly remember, 'cause we talked for so long that I had to confusingly for the dog to do several turns around it. It was a very broad neighbor dog that's loving it, never going out at night and all that. And it was 'cause I, the moment I caught you in was you'd gone through school, you were headed the culinary school and you were headed to this new job that you just described. So that was the moment I had you in. And from then on, it's funny that you say, people gonna call you doctor, you know, 'cause it depends on when you meet and know someone, my son knows you as Chef Chris, right? Like, which is the cool part. So I'll say Chef Chris is doing exercise that. So then, you know, some time goes past and then the next call we have, you're on your way back to Canada in your trailer and you've got so many other stories for me. So where did you go and what, where did you end up? Yeah. And by the way, before we get up on that question, in case you didn't pick up on it, when you said Tristan, you were interested in me at Chef Chris, I had a big smile on my face. Not only because I love Tristan, he's such a beautiful boy. But that's also something to pay attention to. Like, when somebody calls me Chef at work, I feel good about that. Yeah. Yeah. It just makes me feel good. When somebody called me Dr. Edel, it's nothing. When somebody you sat with me, you know, what's your job? I'm a program manager at Facebook. Like, even now I stay at ring there. So there are signals in the way that you talk about something. Yeah. Also pay attention to it. But anyway, two question. Yeah. So we were in California, you know, I'm working at the restaurant. So part-time, I mean, president of Hope's Corner, part-time, Jenny's doing her thing. She's doing really great. She's working at Roblox. Kids are thriving. We have a house. Hey, life is perfect, right? But we both had the same feeling. We loved it each other one day, you know, after dinner having a glass of wine. And we just said, yeah, are we going to live in California or our whole lives? What are we going to do when kids go out to school? I was like, it's a good question. It's funny that you were asking. I've been thinking about it around the same time too. And there was nothing wrong to-- you know, I'm not leaning this to a point where there's anything wrong about the US and California. I know there could be some negative sentiments. But it gave us nothing but opportunity. And I have nothing but gratitude for my time there. And if people, most importantly, people like Hope's Corner change my life. But what we thought, hey, well, you know, our parents are getting any younger. We're not getting any younger. Kids have grown up in California. Wouldn't it be cool if they could grow up a bit in Canada? We chose that as our next adventure. And so I'm out here in Vancouver right now. We are in California. Everything's on the West Coast. No shade to people on the east. I love the East Coast. But we just decided we were West Coast people. And we're like, OK, well, we're working with you out West. And Jenny's best friend lives up here in Lin-Malley in North Vancouver where I can look out my window and I see the mountains, which I love. And we can drop to Whistlery. Water's right here. It's just spectacular part of the country. And I'm slowly becoming a connox fan all this year didn't help. But so we said, well, what if we move to Vancouver? Can we make that happen? And it was really interesting what the hardest parts of that were. And again, I think these are signals. Like what's the hardest part of something? And that's probably telling me something. And the hardest part, I wasn't a board meeting. President of Hope Square and I'm running the board meeting. And I knew at some point I had to tell them I'm going to be leaving. And I got to tell you, I had to barely get through that. I was just so choked up. I said, I'm getting a little emotional. I think I'm right there in my mind. That experience changed the trajectory of my life. And not just the experience with the people. Like I saw how dedicated people were to helping others. And doing that in service to me, it just felt like where I wanted to be. And leaving that community, I worried that I wouldn't be able to find that same community. And I had that kind of regret of being like, OK, is this really the right thing? I don't want to leave this behind. You know, you might leave a job and be like, OK, peace out guys. Good riddance. By leaving something where you're just like, you know, that means something. So yeah, I mean, ultimately we just said, you know, we were sort of getting into the summer months. And Benjamin was going into eighth grade. And eighth grade is where high school starts here in Canada. And we said, OK, well, if we don't find something in the next couple of weeks, and we've been looking for a place up here, we're not going to move because we don't want to kind of take Benjamin out or get him into high school in the middle of it. And there's going to be enough of a change for the kids and all that. And this is on a Friday. Jenny had just got a promotion. And so we were celebrating it. I was like, you know, Jenny, I don't think it's going to happen. And and wouldn't you know at that house that that we had been waiting for came up on Sunday. And we were set to go. It was a kid's spring break. We're going to go to New Zealand the following Friday. We're flying out. And this house came up on the market Sunday. And so we had a realtor here we connected with. They gave us a video to. who are told this, well, you could put an offer in and you can kind of back out after three days or whatever if it doesn't work out with financing or anything. So we said, okay, well, this is a way to kind of like, you know, walk the walk, it's like, we're gonna put an offer in this place. Okay, like, so that's another thing, right? When you make a decision, the hardest part, it's like trying to make a decision, but once you make it, you're like, okay, things are in motion, this is happening. Like, we already have the meeting, we already know we're going. - Yeah. - Let's not, we don't have to go back there. So now let's, let's wait for it. So we put this offer on the house. Two state comes are all, I'm at work and when I'm at work and I'm cooking, I'm just there. Like, five hours cooking, I can't look at my phone, I can't answer. My phone's buzzing in my pocket all night. I'm like, I cannot look at it. End of the night, I find a look at it. It's like 23 messages, my realtor, Jenny's calling me. She's like, they were like, so close to closing the deal, we had this deadline at 10 PM. It was like 9.34 in the kitchen, I step out in the parking lot and I call Jenny, I'm like, okay, this is like the Ruby code right now. Like, we, do you want this? And are we, we're going to take the leap? And if we take the leap, we're all in. And she's like, I really want to do this. And so I call the realtor and I said, okay, let's buy the place. And so I don't know if I'd recommend this path because there are three things that had to happen. Number one, we had to find a place. Two, we had to sell the place we currently have, which we haven't even listed. And three, Jenny had to get remote work approval. Because I know, you know, being a chef now, you can't do that remotely obviously. And, but that's set things in motion, right? And, you know, the firm believer, you know, when you put your intention out there, you know, the universe conspires to try to make things happen. It's like one of my favorite lines from the alchemist. And, you know, when you know it within a few weeks time, we listed the house, we sold it. Jenny got remote work approval. And within a month, we had packed up the air stream and we're toying it up at the Pacific Coast Highway on Route to Canada. (laughing) - Wow, quite another milestone and decision process. So how did you end up at the foundation? - Yeah, so we've been actually thinking about this move since 2019. So we made the move in 2023. A long time thinking about it, obviously COVID delayed it. And in fact, actually spurting in some senses, it's like there's a little bit of a sense of urgency. We couldn't get back to see our parents and that worried us a little bit, both sets of parents being in Canada. And it actually opened up the opportunity for remote work. So in a straight way, obviously it's a very tragic time for a lot of people and some small civil lining was actually open up that opportunity for us to move north. But yeah, so we're in 2019, we were Jenny and I were sort of talking about it. I was at Facebook at the time. And so I started looking at LinkedIn and what kind of organizations are sort of like Hope's Corner in Vancouver. And I found this one called the Better Life Foundation. And in three days, they were having this sort of fundraising dinner in their dining space. So it runs out of a building called Save On Meets. If anybody's been to downtown Vancouver, it's iconic building, kind of hard to miss on Hastings Street. It used to be like a 50 style diner, but Better Life Foundation took it over and started into a community kitchen. And so they still use the dining space for events. In fact, I'm writing one today. And they were having one in a few days. And I was like, oh man, I would love to attend that and meet the people there. 'Cause like if we move, that seems like a great place to go. And I was like, it's in Vancouver and it's like in three days. And I'm working. And Chai's like, so what? Just buy a ticket and go. Again, like she seems to be behind all of this. She's behind it all. She's honestly nothing. None of this would happen without her. I order a ton of credit, a lot of gratitude. But yeah, she gave me that push I needed. And Facebook had a remote office there, which was walking distance from the place. So I bought a ticket, I flew out, I worked from that remote office and then at night, I walked over to Save On Meets building where Better Life Foundation was. And I remember going into the space and it was just like this warm, welcoming atmosphere where it was sort of like a mix of people who look like professionals, people maybe low-income, maybe in street and trench books. And it was just like this group of individuals where she just normally wouldn't see this kind of thing coming together and everybody sat down and these chefs were bringing out plates of delicious food. And these sort of guest celebrity chefs come in. And at one point in the night, the founder, Mark Brand came out and he just sort of like, he spoke and it was like he was speaking like right into my heart. I just felt this really, I'd never felt before. I need to be doing this. Like I don't know what this exactly is, but this is it. And honestly, it was like, no, I have to be here doing it. I just need this. I need to create this in my life, whether it's joining a community that exists like this or creating one myself. But when he spoke and the amount of love and community in that space was just like a wave that came over me. And it was just undeniable. Sometimes when those things happen, and I feel blessed that it did not always work to have sort of a lightning bolt like that. I just said to myself, I don't know how, but I'm going to be doing this. And the timing was just so incredible in the sense that it was December 2019. And then of course, we all know what happened a few months later when COVID came about and things started shutting down. And so it really delayed the process quite a bit. But again, in a way, it opened the doors for a more work and the opportunity to go back there. So when we finally did move back 2023, this is now fast forward four years. COVID had shuttered them significantly. They had one other event. And then I saw another one was coming up when I was living in Vancouver and I emailed them and I said, hey, listen, I'd love to volunteer. I have some culinary experience I can help out in the kitchen. Adriana, community manager was kind of intrigued by my background. And she was like, yeah, why don't you come out? And so in that five-year gap, I'd only missed one event. And now I was not a guest sitting in the dining room. I was working in the kitchen. And I loved it more than I even expected. And so just that next day, I emailed head chef, Sheffian, executive director, Ash MacLeod. And I said, hey guys, I know you might not have openings and I know things are lean at a nonprofit, but if you ever do, I'm here. And I'd love to work with you. And you know, he emailed me back and said, you know what? I got some opening up at the end of the month. I think it'll be perfect for you. And yeah, the rest is history, so to speak. And so those events that I first sat down for and I was a guest and then a volunteer, not running him. Wow. And so yeah, I had an event last night. We bring in a group of folks. They cook the meal and I'm sort of leading the back of house, the kitchen team. And then a really nice addition at the end of the night. We'll sort of gather around the dining room and people reflect on their experience in the night. And no matter what I have going on, no matter how busy I am, or what I have to do later, I don't care if I have to say to midnight when I am, I always participate in that because it's really transformative. Like not only for the people who participate in it, for me too. And just to hear the stories of, you know, when you have another person there sitting across from you that, you know, maybe just grew up in a different circumstance, maybe made one or two bad decisions, but there's just another human being that's in need of nourishment. Or that's a plate of food or just somebody to look at them and say hi and just recognize another human being sitting across from you. At the beginning of the night, we're always strangers. And at the end of the night, we're always talking. You know, how many jobs can you have that you do that? So to me, it's just like an honor and a privilege to be able to do it. I feel like I've been given so much in my life. I can't imagine having a better life. Like I'm so grateful for everything I have, for friendships like yours, for opportunities, not in a way that makes me forced to do it. But my mindset is I owe for all I have. And now it's my time to get back. And so this is my time to be at service. I feel like service is a huge component. I think we're all in service in some way. It doesn't have to be a nonprofit. You don't have to be feeling the homeless. It's giving your gifts. to the world, just like you're doing with this podcast and with the work you're doing and the experience you have and the people you're going to be helping you're in service. It's one of the things that I think we all need in our lives. I think it gives us great satisfaction, grateful fulfillment to help another person in any capacity we can with the gifts that we have. And when you're mastering your field, like you are a John and like a lot of people are in your field that there's something about that overlap of service and mastery that creates something really special. And I think whenever you can do that and you can overlap that, we can complete that Venn diagram with something you're really passionate about, that's where real magic happens. And so, you know, I feel like I found that. I feel super fortunate to do it. You know, for your audience, you haven't found it. You're looking, it's listening to those signals, the universe is talking to you, you just have to listen. And yeah, it's all, it's there for you. I love that. I love that. All right, I'm going to end with a couple of rapid fire questions for you. Sure. I'm still recovering from that. That was awesome. I just before I get to that, like, I had read a small tidbit that in some of the stuff I read online that you'd been quoted as doing. One, you could correct me if it's not the right quote, but it struck me and it seems in line with what you said that you had recovered from a life that wasn't aligned with your values. And that really spoke to me. And now that I've heard so much more detail today about your story. And I think even you said it too, I think people think it's a, sometimes when they think about career changes, they think they've either got to, you know, make a huge change or they got to stay stuck in what they're doing. And can you connect that thought, you know, on recovering from the life that wasn't aligned with your values? How can people change their current professional lives, even if it doesn't necessarily mean diving in and the dramatic, multiple dramatic changes you just described. But what would you say to people who are currently feeling stuck and are not ready to make a dramatic change? And in fact, this is one of the questions, right? I think we've all asked ourselves that at one point or another. You know, how can you do it to your point? It doesn't have to be binary, right? You don't have to stay where you are or make this drastic change. That's too overwhelming. You know, that's too much to put on yourself. It's too much pressure. I know we're all high achievers and we drive under pressure, but don't put that pressure on yourself. You don't need to. The thing you need to do is to pay attention to the signals in your life. And that can be internal. What your body is telling you, I like to say the body keeps score and never lies. So if your body is telling you, and that can be in many different signals, that okay, something is a little out of alignment for me right now. And sometimes, you know, the pain of your current circumstances, you know, has to kind of be surpassed by, you know, the fear of doing something different. It's sort of when that threshold crosses that you're like, okay, my current situation is too painful. Hopefully you don't get there. I really hope a lot of people don't get there because yeah, you don't want to get to that point. Sometimes it starts as a whisper, but it ultimately, I think, ends with, you know, a pile of bricks. But yeah, just try to listen to that whisper. And to the point of where we're starting the conversation, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be signals that are coming from your field. It can be signals in your life that you're drawn to. And it's like, you know, just take your use about that. Like, what is it about that that I like? You might not have to figure it out cognitively, but just move towards that and try getting more of that in your life. Things that you like more, but also what are the types of books you read? What movies you watch? Who do you follow? Who do you admire? And then, you know, try to connect those dots to, again, you don't have to figure it out exactly, but there's something there that's telling you something. And you know, just continue to pull on that thread. It can be a volunteer opportunity. You could be taking a class. You can dip your toe in the water and say, hey, I'm kind of curious about this. Let me see what it's really like. Like for me. So I would go to culinary school. What's the worst that happens? I finish and I'm out of the workforce for a year. I can get another job. I can come back. There's always an opportunity to go back if you want to. You can always turn around, but I will have to say, if you've started moving in one direction, you're probably not going to want to turn around and go back. Once you start moving and walking in a direction, as a shared, a couple of different stories, you know, the universe, I believe, opens up pathways for you. So just take that first step, you know, again, it doesn't have to be that first step in necessarily a career move. But moving in that direction, I think, can be really powerful. And it just gives you another signal. It's just okay. I'm going to take this step. Let me see how this goes. And then I'm going to take another one. You just look at the step that's right in front of you. And I like to say that's a simple way of saying it, but not easy. It's simple, but not easy. I know, I know guys, it's not easy. And if you ever want to talk about it, we certainly can't because I'm in there and I know it's not harder. But if I will say this, the hardest part is actually deciding. Once you decide and you're in it, you're in it and you're committed. And yeah, it's your question earlier, John, do you ever ask yourself, what did I just do? You might ask yourself that, but that's okay. You could also be asking yourself, if you don't do anything, why am I still doing this? And maybe just ask yourself, which would I rather be? There's nothing that's fixed. There's always an opportunity to change. There's always a chance to say, hey, this is for me, I'm going to keep going, or hey, it's not for me. And that's okay. It's not a linear path. It certainly isn't. But to me, that's part of the fun. That's the adventure. And that's actually one of those things that I really admire is when people take these sometimes leaps of faith, sometimes they're well calculated, there's quite a range also. But those are the interesting people. Those are the interesting lives. There's nothing wrong with doing the same thing. That's what really what you love. I mean, in a way, you found it. You have found that mastery path that you are dedicating your life to. And there is something I admire about that. I admire a lot of chefs that are just masters in there. And they're built. People outside of that. But there's nothing to say that it has to always be like that. You can always begin again. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember two one thing and you did help me a lot with unknowingly, probably helped me a lot with my career thinking and of the many, many things you said that helped me along the way and that resonates even more now. And I have shared with others to let you know that who have had a thought process is as apparent to the impact of your example to them and you use the phrase about showing your kids that you can always reinvent yourself. That was so powerful for me because I'm just like you, I'm a dedicated dad and I thought about what are my kids going to think about this change. And they only ever knew me as a lawyer who worked at Pfizer for their whole lives, which I realized when I was changing, I'm like, oh my god, you don't even know me as anything else. And the funny part was when I told them they were like no problem. And I asked are you worried about anything? And they're my daughter, Olivia said, are you going to be home more? That was the only question. And I was like, wow, okay. And to your point about the universe and signals. And Sophie, my wife's going to love that. She's a big fan of that. That was a huge signal for me. That was her response to me. And Tristan was all in, no problem, whatever you want to do. So that really spoke to me. And then hopefully we'll resonate for them for the rest of their lives. So I definitely want to thank you for that because that was important to me. Oh, 100%. I mean, just if I could add on to the previous answer, you help me think of it in another way, which is, you know, those responses, you know, like that your kids gave you. I think the part that sort of makes it illuminate the decision making process is that it shines a light on what your values are. And if you're making a decision based on your values, again, you can't go wrong. you know, if that decision is But misaligned with your values, you're going to feel some type of discomfort. And so, yeah, I think it's important. And always check that is this change that I'm seeking aligned with my values. Because for me, a change could have been when I was in Silicon Valley, which was, I went from Google to Facebook. And a way I just went from one hamster wheel to the other. And I think there can be something sort of alluring and a little disorienting of having opportunities in front of you that are shiny and are bringing you in a different direction than you want to go. Money is definitely an easy one. Titles, prestige, what society believes is a value. But if you can sit with yourself and be like, I'm at peace with my decision, peace with myself. My family is happy. I'm here. My friends are happy with me and I'm happy with them. I mean, that's really what it's all about. Like, I think we're all seeking fulfillment and peace and just a sense of living a life of meaning. And when that matters, at least I am. I believe a lot of people are in it. If the decision will bring you close to that, I think it's the right one. I think we've all attended one of these expert type panels before. And this is kind of going back. I was a junior engineer at the Infanera before I joined Google. I remember attending this sort of expert panel of people who are in the highest physicians in the organization. People, I, you know, so many levels down they would have been like bothered to look down upon me. And I don't remember anything from it, but one question. And that question was the exact one that you asked is, which is, if you have an opportunity to make a change, whether that's a new role in this company or a new job or. Or they may be the bigger. How do you decide to do that kind of liked the answer that this senior fellow had provided. And he said his framework was he sort of had this idea of where the direction he wanted to go. And that might be aligned with his values or his career goals or anything of that sort, whatever you want to do as an individual. And he said if something was an opportunity to put in front of me and it was bringing me closer to that. And I'll interject this additional part, which we just talked about and it aligned with my values. The answer is yes. Mm hmm. Even if it's hard, it's going to be uncomfortable and it's going to make maybe some people unhappy. The answer's got to be yes. Mm hmm. Yeah. Like that. I like that. All right. I'm going to ask you three rapid fires and just a couple words, a couple words each. Um, best advice you've ever gotten. Oh, wow. Best advice I've ever gotten. Okay, it becomes for me. Yeah. That's all right. You know, I think that's just coming to the forefront is it's it's it's not too. For both is just it's just purely follow your heart. I mean, because I think. I think we all know a truth in us. And that's a very personal thing. And you know, if you're just listening to that, then that's just again, that's the right decision. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Here's an easier one. When I say lawyer, you think. I think do it. Am I going to need one? Nice. Nice. Nice. I was I was I was thinking about your career path. You could have ended up where you are now. There is a branch of the universe where you were working for Doge under Elon Musk too. And I was like, maybe at some point there'd be an intersection of maybe no, but that that's sort of the target. She gets your honestly, uh, I think of you. You're, uh, yeah. You're, uh, you know, one of my close friends and as a lawyer. And so I I only have good thoughts about it because I got good. Nice. Nice. Nice. I have done the profession well then. Absolutely. All right. And last one. And I'm so glad I get to ask this of you because, uh, I've, I've gotten a lot from you in this area. You're a book. A book you would recommend to this audience. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to always pick one. And, um, it can be sometimes a little daunting if you recommend a long book to somebody. It's then they're like, uh, am I going to have to read this? Somebody's going to ask me. That's me. That's me. That's me. So this, this, this recommendation actually fits well in something that's very digestible that has probably more wisdom towards than any other book I've read. And it's done in a really entertaining way. Uh, and I referenced it earlier in this conversation. And that's the Lion trackers guy to life by point of party. Uh, just a very deep breather, uh, super interesting guy. Um, in South Africa, who makes a lot of really insightful observations about the connection of, uh, living a wildlife. Um, and how that translates into everybody's life, um, in terms of exactly what we've talked about today. It's not only the book I would recommend the most. I think it's probably the most relevant book to our conversation today. So, okay. I highly, highly recommended, um, and then if you want to learn more about Boyd party, he's, uh, he's a master storyteller, a beautiful human being, and just, you know, so wise. It's interesting because I gave that book recently to a person who was volunteering with us at a better life foundation. And she got into med school and she was deciding, do I go to med school in Toronto or do I stay here and be with my family? And, um, and I said, uh, you know, there's a lot of different ways to look at that. But I think this book might have some answers for you as well. Nice. Nice. And I did follow your recommendation and listen to them on a podcast, a few different podcasts and, uh, what, what an eye opener. So I really appreciate that. All right. So I'm going to say, thank you, Chris. And I want to make sure to ask people to check out what you're doing and what the better life foundation is doing at a better life foundation.ca. And I'll put that in the show notes so people can find that. And, uh, thank you for being part of the part of the podcast today. It was absolute pleasure. Yeah. Thanks, Sean. So much. It's fun talking to you. Yeah. We can always talk offline, but this was kind of a fun format. And I hope we do talk against it. Wow. What do you say about that? I love that conversation. I learned so much. Just Chris's way of handling change, handling intentionality, being true to himself. I learned so much and I've known him forever, but I love that conversation. I hope you liked it too. If you do make sure to subscribe, follow, do what you got to do to meet more people like Chris. All right. Being right. It's got you this far. Leading will get you further head to Jonathan Cullen Coaching dot com. Grab your free lawyer to lead her assessment. See you next time.