Speaker 1Hello everyone, welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud podcast, the show where we get real about addiction and mental health recovery. Today I sat down with Jordana Sade, a holistic nutritionist, hypnotherapist, podcaster, and founder of The Mindful Clinic. Jordana has a degree in behavioral psychology and is considered the top leading expert in eating behavior and also a TEDx speaker on understanding what it means to have a healthy relationship with food. I learned a lot in today's episode and I hope you do too. If you are someone you know is struggling with addiction, food addiction, or substance abuse, please reach out for help. Enjoy the show. Please support the show by following and subscribing. We appreciate you.
Speaker 2Hey Jordana. Hey. How's it going? I'm so good. How are you? I'm doing well, thanks. Thank you so
Speaker 1much for coming down. I really appreciate it. I messaged you online. I was following what you're doing and I really like what you're doing. Thank you. And you know I was introduced to you through a mutual friend and you didn't even hesitate so I appreciate that. You know you were like yeah let's do it. Let's let's jump and you know we're here. Here we are doing it so I'm always appreciative of people in recovery because I feel like we're really let's get it done people. You know type A. Yeah definitely. Yeah so yeah so I appreciate that about you and I'm really interested in this you know body dysmorphia from my perspective. You know relationship with food. I think it doesn't get talked about enough and I'm like it's really opening my eyes and uncovering a lot of avenues of and and also similarities with drug addiction and food addiction and you know this kind of obsessive cycle that we get into right. So why don't you start off you know tell us a little bit about who you are and how you got into
Speaker 2into this field. Yeah well thank you so much for having me. It's honestly an honor to be here but my story started when I was very young. So this was obviously a long time ago. I'm in my 30s now but I was the only obese kid in my class and of course I was like bullied and made fun of like my mom is an Italian chef and so the way that she shows love is through food and you know it was one of the only times I got attention from my mom because she was so busy not because she's a bad mother or anything but I was the only obese kid in class and when I was eight years old I had a crush on a boy and I was playing tag at recess and I tagged him and in front of the whole school he yelled fatty caught me. Oh my god. And I just remember that day like that's kind of like my
Speaker 1origin story you know. I'm like fuck that guy but thank you at the same time. Yeah totally. So I'm
Speaker 2eight years old and I go home and I'm like something has to change. So that was the day that I went on my first diet. I didn't know what a diet was. I only knew that the more I ate the bigger I got and so I essentially just began to starve myself. Like I would throw my lunches away at school and I did lose a lot of weight and I received a lot of validation. Like all of a sudden I had friends. The cutest boy in school started talking to me. My parents were proud of me. Even my doctor was like oh my gosh look at you go. So this kind of spiraled into decades of eating disorders and then eventually substance abuse. So when I was in high school I recognized that you if I smoked weed a lot then I was you know how people say you know weed gives you the munchies. Well when you do it enough and you do it a lot it almost like takes away the because you're receiving dopamine from something else right. And then weed kind of led to MDMA and I would drop like two pills of MDMA and go to class and then which led to like acid and shrooms and then eventually cocaine and that was kind of my Achilles heel. So at this point I'm 21. I'm living in Montreal. I'm kicked out of university. I'm a full-blown like cocaine addict and alcoholic. I have a bone sticking out of my nose and my parents were like we're not going to pay for you to party anymore. Like there's something very seriously wrong here. So they made me come home and I was working in this restaurant and I met this man and I got pregnant like very quickly and that baby basically saved my life because through that pregnancy I couldn't use the substances that I was using to keep my weight down but also like simultaneously very addicted to it. But the one thing that where it all kind of started came back with full force and that was just this very unhealthy addictive relationship to food. And so I gained a lot of weight in that pregnancy. I was very unhappy and when my son was nine months old I was like I'm going to get down to the bottom of my eating disorder and I went to become a nutritionist. I graduated as valedictorian first class honors. I'm hired right out of school to work with a medical doctor in his obesity clinic and I'm seeing patient after patient and I'm handing out meal plan after meal plan and like literally nobody is getting any better because the truth is and hopefully you're not going to get any better. But I'm like I'm going to get any better. But I'm like I'm going to get any better. But I'm like I'm going to get any better. I think we all know an apple is healthier than a chocolate bar right. But we still choose a chocolate bar anyways. And so it really opened my eyes up to this idea of like self-sabotage like I know it's bad for me but I do it anyways. Right. And so I was like this isn't an issue that a meal plan is going to solve. I went back to school to do my master's and eventually my Ph.D. which I'm still in the process of in behavioral psychology and neuroscience. And once I started to understand the nervous system and understand why people don't want to eat. I was like I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to get better. I'm going to to engage in these addictive behaviors and why other people aren't like changed my life. And then now I work with women all over the world doing the same. Wow. Awesome. There's a lot there.
Speaker 1No no. And like I want to I want to dive into so much of it. Did you have a deviated septum when you when you were using too much coke. No it's just like just it's still there like the bone
Speaker 2just kind of sticks out and when it gets dry I feel it. I have never gotten it fixed. But
Speaker 1first question. That's where my brain goes though. I'm like yeah you know I got close to that too and I always used to brag. This is so weird that I'm going to say this but my my nose hair would start to come back when I was a coke addict and I would joke around that that was an indication that I was like doing better because it wasn't like burning. That's so funny. I totally get that. Yeah. You know these kind of accolades that we give ourselves because just we're just justifying this like unhealthy behavior. Totally. Because I don't want to stop. It's hard. It's uncomfortable. Yeah. So that was that's cool that you you noticed you had this kind of like epiphany moment where you're and it's true like we all have the information. The information is plentiful out there. There's so much of it. It's just it's like addiction with any substance. It's like I use outside things to heal my insides. Right. I want to feel good. So that you're and you're in the middle of getting your Ph.D. right now. What like what's what are next steps for you.
Speaker 2What do you want to do. Well I've written my thesis. And we can talk about that as well. But I you know I've taken a break from my Ph.D. like I have to do my four thousand hours of supervision and I have a business that's plentiful. I have two kids I'm divorced like single mom. So like I just don't right now it's just not a priority. But eventually you know when my kids are older and I have a lot of time like I'll probably go and finish. But I think I learned everything I needed to in that moment. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. I want to talk
Speaker 1about trauma a little bit because I think trauma affects affects all of us. I used to think that trauma and I'm sure a lot of people still think this or you know hopefully they're coming around to this idea but I used to think that trauma was like I had to get abused as a kid. I had to have this moment where you know somebody sexually abused me in particular and I was proven wrong. You know time and time again by attending therapy. I learned in treatment that it's it's an experience. Right. Trauma is all subjective if you will. What's your experience with trauma
Speaker 2and like what do you think it is. How do you define it. Yeah I've done a lot of work in this. I'm sure you know Dr. Gabor Mate. I did actually a course with him like so long ago before he was like super famous. Yeah literally. But so he a lot of what I know about trauma is a lot of his his theories. But you know my trauma was a kid calling me fat when I was eight. Right. Like I mean and there were so many more things like my dad having really high expectations of me and you know the attention obese and I work with so many women that have had very serious traumas lost both their parents when they were young and in the in the system you know they've been to jail or mom's gone to jail they've been sexually assaulted and I look at my trauma compared to that and I'm like oh my god like what's my problem you know but essentially trauma is never the experience it's like how you internalize it right and trauma is anything that takes the nervous system outside of its like feeling of comfort and peace and safety and so human beings are really cool because we are you know we're primitive and like essentially we're very primitive still and if we look back on the way that these like tribes used to function there are two things that would make somebody from the tribe you know start to break down like mentally emotionally physically and one of those things is not having any value to the tribe and then not being accepted into the tribe and so literally if you weren't accepted into a tribe the nervous system goes oh my god I'm not going to survive and it starts to create things like anxiety depression even physical symptoms like you know they might their immune system's going to lower they're going to pick up diseases easier and so you know me not being accepted when I was eight years old was very traumatic right because as a little girl before the prefrontal cortex is even fully developed you know I was like oh my god I'm not going to survive and it starts to create things like anxiety depression you're walking around going like do I fit in am I going to survive and the conscious brain is like oh this boy doesn't like me but the subconscious part of the nervous system the very primitive brain is like I'm not going to have access to food I'm going to fucking die you know
Speaker 1yeah I'm not going to fit into the tribe and yeah and those two things are very closely related to like not not being accepted and not, cause if I don't have any value to add to the tribe or to my recovery, my family or my friend group, like I'm going to automatically feel like an outcast. Right. And then I'm using those emotions subconsciously. I'm using cocaine and, you know, other stimulants for me, uh, to kind of just quiet that voice in my head. Um, how does, how does trauma, what is the trauma? So you talked a little bit about how it affects, you know, your nutrition and your food and your relationship with food, but can you dive into a little bit more of that? Like how it affects
Speaker 2that? Yeah. So super cool. So, you know, food is our first access to drug drugs, you know, like nobody's ever addicted to broccoli. You can't change my mind about that. And so I haven't met anyone either. So it's, you know, I did a lot of research because I was, I'm very curious person. Um, and I wanted to know why one person would get addicted to food and another person wouldn't, or, you know, two people try the same drug. I had a best friend in high school and, and she would be able to use drugs just kind of intermittently. And we were doing the same thing, but like I was addicted. Like it was, for me, it was an escape for myself, just like you mentioned for her, it was just like an opportunity to have a fun experience. So what's the difference, right? And so actually neurochemically, like when we are a child, usually before the age of seven, if there's any type of like chaos in the environment and there are 10 different things that are outlined in this study where it would be like a traumatic experience or trauma essentially what happens in the brain is cortisol gets elevated in a young child and cortisol literally inhibits the endorphin system from developing the endorphin system is where we release oxytocin, dopamine, serotonin. And so these individuals that have had traumatic experiences growing up, or they're perceiving trauma all the time, whether it's parents fighting or, you know, someone's incarcerated or whatever it is for me, it was not being accepted. My nervous system and these individuals, nervous system, isn't, aren't able to release dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, on a regular schedule where someone else would. And so when you have access to that drug, it's like your brain's feeling that serotonin for the first time. And it gets addicted to that piece. It gets addicted to that, like that, those good feelings versus somebody who can release these things on a natural schedule, they can just produce them on the go. And so for me, I'm not sure if I'm answering your question, but for me, one of the main factors is like, was that traumatic experience in childhood? Um, did it alter the nervous system enough to make that individual when they have their first ice cream, you know, like, are they going back to the ice cream because the ice cream tastes good? Or are they going back to the ice cream because the release of those chemicals, the dopamine, serotonin, et cetera, that you get from that ice cream are literally like releasing chemicals that their brain can't do naturally. And so because food is our first access to drugs and nobody's addicted to broccoli, you see these young children where, and you know, as they grow up, where food becomes a mechanism of eating that's more than a means for survival. Like they're not just like eating to live. They're like living to eat.
Speaker 1Yeah. I think, um, you did answer my question. What that, what then, sorry. I want to clarify one thing too, uh, for people that don't know oxytocin is like the love chemical, right? It's kind of like what, how, when we first start dating, um, it attracts us to somebody. Is that right?
Speaker 2Yeah. Oxytocin is released based on feelings of connection. So, I mean, you can get release it with your friends, romantic partners for sure. Right. But if we actually think about like the drugs that are related to these things, oxytocin would be like oxys, right? Like heroin is very different than cocaine is cocaine's a stimulant. And so cocaine's gonna, um, alter dopamine, whereas heroin's gonna alter oxytocin and oxytocin is like intoxicating. Like, you know, I worked in rehab centers for a while and there's a big difference between somebody who's addicted to heroin and oxys versus somebody who's like an alcoholic or cocaine, not better. Or worse, just very different. It's very all consuming.
Speaker 1Yeah. So that leads me to my next question. And I've always wondered this, and I don't know that there's an answer for it, but maybe you can provide some more clarity on it. What makes somebody addicted to one class of drugs more than the other? I was always a stimulant guy. Like I never enjoyed that kind of Matthew Perry called it. Cause he was, I read his book and he was great book. He talks about, um, oxys. The feeling of oxys was like, it would replace all of the blood in his body with warm honey. And I was like, Oh, that sounds kind of nice. But I never had that experience with it. What do you think makes, what do you think separates people? Like why do people choose certain classes?
Speaker 2That's a really good question. I, this is not a, um, academic response. This is like a personal opinion, but you know how, when we sat down, you were like, you know, we just get it, we do it done. Like addicts are like, we're go, go, go, go, go. An individual who's like that type A who's wired for, um, external validation, they're, they're receiving their validation through doing things. Um, people like giving them praise, et cetera. It's that go, go, go mentality. Those people are really wired for dopamine. Like dope dopamine is the molecule of more. It's not people think dopamine is a molecule of pleasure. It's not actually oxytocin is dopamine is a molecule of movement and more, and the more dopamine you release, the more dopamine you need. And so it's like you release a little bit of dopamine and simultaneously you feel pleasure and craving at the same time. And every time you engage in that substance or that behavior or whatever it is, the pleasure goes down, but the craving, even goes up. So dopamine, that's why people get addicted to stimulants. Cause it's like, it's never, ever going to be like the first time you tried it. Like, I'm sure, you know, after years of doing cocaine, it's not even like I was having fun anymore. I was just doing it because I had to, but these people are wired for like dopaminergic things. Whereas oxytocin is more of a, like, I'm going to go to sleep for three days and like shut down. And those people might have engaged in total. This is me just making a guess, but I would think that the more severe the trauma, like the more that they want to do it, the more they're going to get addicted to it. The more they want to hide and escape, the more you would gear more towards, like, I want to shut the system down versus I want to do more things and amp it up. Yeah. Huh? I've never heard an
Speaker 1answer like that. I agree. It totally makes sense. It totally makes sense. Um, because yeah. And there's one thing that this is just a personal, uh, you know, kind of gripe that I have in addiction and recovery. Well, you know, when you ask people like, what was your DOC, your drug of choice? What, what, what did you like? And this is just a personal, uh, you know, kind of gripe that some people, a lot of people will say like, Oh, I liked everything. I was like, no, you motherfucker. Like you have a faith. You have a favorite. Tell me what it is. You can't, I don't know. I just, it's hard to like, you know, and towards the end I got into benzos a lot, but that was solely because it would bring, it would, it would allow me to control my stimulant kind of high when I would get way too amped. I was like, Oh, and then the anxiety starts to come up and the cops are coming and people are trying to kill me. You know, the, the, the, uh, breaking bad meth scene where he's peeking out of the windows. Like, that, that was me, you know, every time. Right. Yeah. And, um, so yeah, so like for me, the benzos would kind of just like take the edge off a bit, but I never really did them on, on, on their own. Um, so, you know, we get into recovery, um, and you're told kind of, we have to like rewire the neural pathways, the neurotransmitters, uh, as you come in. Um, what does, what, what role does hypnotherapy play? And I know, cause I know you deal with that and this is cool. I'm getting
Speaker 2into this now. I'm learning a lot. Yeah. I mean, I am a hypnotherapist and the main reason why I wanted to become a hypnotherapist was because I studied so much about the subconscious mind versus the conscious mind. Right. So the subconscious mind rules 80% of what you do. Like, I mean, some people say it's closer to 98. I'm like, it's a solid 80 for me. And most of the time it is about 98% of your day is run by your subconscious mind. 2% of your day is like where your goals and your dreams live. So like I might have a goal of, Hey, wake up and go to the gym at 6am every day, or I want to get sober or I want to lose weight or, you know, whatever your goals and your dreams are. That's that 2%. That's like where your unique desires and goals live. 98% or like a strong 80% is your subconscious programming. And your literally given it between the ages of like third trimester when you're in your mother's stomach and age seven. And so whatever the narrative is in your household, the emotions that your parents had you know, children are very highly intuitive and they pick up on those programs and those systems. And the subconscious is wired for survival, not success. Right. And so, so much of what we do when it comes to like addiction, whether it's eating or drugs or shopping or whatever, it's this survival mechanism. Like the brain would never ever do any behavior unless it saw it as being very purposeful. Like we never repeat any behavior unless there's a purpose. And so the purpose of us engaging in these like, you know, self-sabotaging behaviors, is because the brain thinks it needs it to survive. And so I became kind of like obsessed with wanting to understand how to rewire that subconscious mind. Because when we are, and maybe you can resonate with this, but have you ever driven home and you just like get in your car and then you drive and then all of a sudden you're home and you just like, don't even know how you got there. Like you're in that subconscious, right? Most of what we do in the day is in that subconscious programming. It's like watching TV, eating, this is all subconscious behavior. We don't have to think about it. We don't have to reteach ourself how to brush our teeth. It's subconscious. We just, we learn it and the brain just does it, right? And so if we have a behavior or a pattern that is adaptive for us, like brushing our teeth, that's one thing. But when we have maladaptive behaviors in the subconscious, it becomes very difficult to change no matter how much your conscious mind, that 2% is not going to outweigh the 98%. And so hypnotherapy essentially works on the subconscious mind and how it works is you want to get the individual into a theta brainwave state. And so when we're like conscious and we're acting, just like we're talking like like you and I, I'm in a beta state. If I wouldn't be able to rewire my subconscious now, but if you get the individual in a theta brainwave state, which is like very close to slow wave sleep, we can actually manipulate the thoughts and the patterns and the feelings that this individual has about themselves. So, so hypnotherapy works on that subconscious mind and it also works through being able to visualize. So I'm an overthinker. Like I literally just catastrophize constantly all day long. Worst case scenarios. Like I literally envision them all the time. And so not many people actually spend enough time daydreaming about like best case scenario possibilities, right? We're always, because best case scenario is not adaptive. The brain is like, how am I going to die? It's, it's a negative negativity bias. So anytime anything is like a threat to survival, the brain's going to remember it and it's going to replay it because it's going to be like, you're going to die. You're going to die. Watch out for it. And so hypnotherapy gives us the opportunity to actually like daydream and visualize as if it's really happening. And the subconscious mind doesn't. So the difference between imagination and reality. And so we're envisioning these like best case scenarios, as well as kind of reprogramming the way the subconscious mind thinks and feels. And then together, it gives a good opportunity for behavior change. It's not a magic pill though. I think people think, you know, you go to hypnotherapy, get hypnotized once it's done. And that's not my experience with it.
Speaker 1That's awesome. Um, can you get there to the theta brainwave through meditation? Totally possible. Definitely. But then you, you kind of, so the. Your part in it or the teacher or the coach or therapist part, uh, hypnotherapist would be to kind of guide people through that, that happy state. Right. Because that's hard to do on your own. Right. Yeah. To your point. Um, I feel like my imagination sometimes is like, you know, the director's cut of movies where there's just like 30 different alternate endings and they're all bad. Right. Like it's just, there's nothing good that happens. And, uh, yeah, it's, it's hard to catch yourself there sometimes. So that's cool. So how many, how long is a session usually? And like how many sessions do you start to see kind of, uh, positive behavior, positive, uh, yeah, reactions to it?
Speaker 2It's so different depending on the behavior that we're trying to change. So one of the reasons why I'm obsessed with working with food addiction is because unlike any other substance, you can't be abstinent from food. Right. And so, and I don't want to live in a world where I can't eat cake. I'm not going to be like sugar free for my whole life. That's ridiculous. So like, whereas if we're looking at something like smoking cessation, I've done a session, literally one session with. Someone and they stopped smoking immediately because you know, you throw the cigarette packs out, you take a different route home. Like so many, you don't go back to the bar, you change your friend. Like there's so many different like confounding factors that would allow that individual to be successful with hypnotherapy. Whereas with food, it's like, yeah, you have to engage with it every single day, multiple times a day. And so with other substances, like a session is typically 30 minutes to an hour. Um, I always record it and then you're listening to it for about 20. 21 days. Yeah. And then with my hypnotherapy clients, like, it's not just like, I see you when we do the hypnotherapy, like there's often check-ins, like I'm understanding, you know, what the triggers are of this individual. It's very specific and unique to the individual person, but with food, my programs are always three months to six months because it really does take that amount of time to change the way that we, like, we relate to food. Yeah.
Speaker 1And it's, it's, so it's kind of, my mind goes to this, um, like, what does it look like? And you kind of mentioned this, but what does it look like in daily life? So I leave your office and I really want to eat 10 pieces of cake or it always starts with one. Right. And then you start eating, you're like, ah, whatever, fuck it. I'm just going to keep going. Um, what, um, is it sort of, you know, instead of, is it like food choices, kind of learning when to stop to eat? What does that look like in real life?
Speaker 2Oh, it's, it's everything. It's all of those things you said. I've been laughing because you said something that was like so perfect and I just want to take a picture and frame it. that's like, that's the key right there. But essentially, like I mentioned, you know, human beings were very primitive and primal. And so when the nervous system detects that there's going to be a restriction of food, it, it wants to overindulge. It literally bypasses that prefrontal cortex is where we have like impulse control, executive functioning, all those things because food is needed for survival. When we have, you know, a lot of where food addiction starts is when people go on their first diet, like that's where it starts. It's because of that restriction. Right. And so what you said that made me laugh was you were like, Oh, you know, I've already had one piece of cake, like, fuck it. I'll start again tomorrow type of energy. Right. It's that idea of like me eating is bad. And therefore I'm, it's gonna, I'm going to have to rein it in. I'm going to have to restrict myself. That like potential of restriction is actually what elevates the over consumption of food. It's so cool. And so like, there's so many different things, but I always start off, you know, I'm using hypnotherapy, but I'm also using a lot of behavioral psychology with clients where we're, I'm teaching them how to receive dopamine from other things like intrinsically. So, you know, being their own cheerleader or whatever it is, but a lot of the time, and I'm going to explain this in a funny way. So if you have two kids, okay. Anyone is listening has kids. I use this example, but you know, if you take your kid to the grocery store, right. And the kid's like, I want a chocolate bar. And you're like, no, we're going home to have dinner. You're not getting that chocolate bar. And the kid's like, I want a chocolate bar. And so it's like stomping their feet. And you're like, stop it. We're not getting the chocolate bar. We're going home to have dinner. Then the kid's like, I want a pocket chocolate bar. And they're like hitting their head against the rails. And you're like, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Here's the chocolate bar. Right now, what you've taught that child is all it needs to do is just overreact to get access to the chocolate bar. If you say to the child, child's like, I want a chocolate bar and you're like, okay, let's get the chocolate bar. I'm just going to hold onto it for 10 minutes. We'll have it after dinner. Like now that the child realizes they have access to the thing, it's not being taken away from them. It's not being. Restricted. The desire for it goes down. Right. And so with all of my clients, and if you're listening to this and you're struggling with like food addiction or overeating or whatever it is for you, binge eating, you can't restrict it because if you restrict it, the cravings intensify. You have to allow yourself to have it, but you have to create space between the desire and the behavior. So it's like, okay, I just had dinner. I want a piece of cake. I know I'm not hungry. I just had dinner, but I want the piece of cake. Can I wait 10 minutes? Can I wait 20 minutes? Let me do the dishes. By the time you're done doing the dishes, you only want the piece of cake.
Speaker 1Yeah. I mean, I wish I, I wish I met you 10 years ago because I, I got into this. I had a really unhealthy, uh, calorie counting habit and I was fully in sober and you know, in sober, I was sober. I was in recovery. I was doing great. I was running marathons, you know, and that's another addiction. Right. Um, and it was, uh, it was during COVID too. And so that was tough for everybody. Right. But, uh, I've never, I mean, it makes so much sense. It's anytime I've tried to restrict myself with drugs too. There's always been this kind of combating force at it where it's like, I just always end up using more. Right. Um, you also mentioned something that was really, you know, interesting to this idea of once, you know, you have it, it's like everything just kind of calms right down. Right. And that was my, you know, I hate to keep making it to the, uh, the uh you know cross between drugs and but there's so many there's so many parallels here towards you know drug addiction as well it's just like if if i would i would i was so obsessed with the chase of drugs and alcohol and it's the same with food too like just this kind of chase this pursuit of drugs and alcohol that once i had it i was like okay it's there and then you know to your point if i challenge myself and say can i wait 10 minutes can i wait 20 minutes what is this about do something else do the dishes that's a huge one for me how many times i can't even tell you where i've wanted ice cream ice cream's my thing and um you know we've just gone and done something else or i've gone and done something else and it's like huh i don't really want ice cream anymore
Speaker 2you know it's kind of gone now yeah that's amazing so the entire first part of my thesis was proving that food being food addiction is the same as any other addiction so it actually is it elevates the same parts of the brain the same chemicals are released like it literally they're identical um i'm sure you've heard of the study where the mouse was more addicted to sugar than cocaine that's dr nicole lavina she's a wonderful i met her she's incredible but anyways um here's a little tip for you i was hoping you're hoping to do it fix me so one of the cool things about and this is like a brain reprogramming thing but especially because we can't be abstinent from food so oftentimes and it kind of goes back into that subconscious like when we're eating usually the cue for us to stop eating is the plate being empty right because we're so subconscious about it we're usually on our phones we're watching tv we're like talking to our spouses whatever it is right and so two things that you can do is one practice just not finishing your plate and throwing the last bite out and it's i know right there's so much anxiety just thinking about that but but it's true because because ultimately like if we keep doing things over and over again like the brain is just a big muscle like let's take the emotion completely out of it the brain is a muscle of habits right when you're learning to play basketball you're not going to get every shot in on the first you literally have to practice and so with ice cream you're not going to get every shot in on the first you literally have to practice and so when you're learning to play basketball you're not going to get every shot in on the first you literally have to practice and so when you're learning to play basketball you're not going to get every shot in one night easily like not every night but you know you have those moments where it's like i've restricted for so long now i'm just going to eat this whole tub of ice cream yeah and the rationality behind that is ridiculous but you you just have one spoonful and then you put it down and you go amy and then you put it away like it's a practice you approach it as if it's an exercise i'm trying i'm just going to have one spoonful yay me and then you put it back this is an exercise this isn't because i want ice cream this isn't because i deserve it this is because i'm practicing a new skill and when we approach it like that and we take the emotion out of it there's no restriction and you're actually able to teach the brain something new so when i was learning how to stop being addicted to food i was living back with my mom, which is like, we're all the problems started. Then my mom literally has like 12 types of pastas ready at all times. It's like an Italian buffet there. And so I would literally open the fridge and say, no, thank you. And close it, open the cupboards and say, no, thank you. And close it. Like you have to practice because the more you practice, the more the brain learns how to do it.
Speaker 1You mentioned a piece there that I like too, this, um, this idea of like, you know, good job, yay me, right. This kind of, that's important for us humans. I've learned, uh, this kind of, you know, inner reward system because we look for, you know, why don't you applaud me? You applaud me. Why look at me? I'm doing great. Right. But it has to come from inside, you know?
Speaker 2Yeah. And that's exactly what I was talking about when I'm telling you, like, that's how we retrain dopamine to come from intrinsically rather than outside. Because when you eat your favorite food, you're releasing like 150 times more dopamine when you do cocaine, it's like 4,000 times, like a cigarettes, this amount, that amount, right. When we release dopamine on a natural schedule, we teach the brain. We don't need these big releases of dopamine because we create little like dopaminergic pathways like throughout the day. So that yay me is actually like really, really scientific. And I make all of my clients do it. Take a shower. Yay me brush my teeth. Yay me, yay me, yay me, yay me all day long so that we can feel like we have this like intrinsic, very balanced reward system rather than needing these large dumps from other things.
Speaker 1And, and the phone is the big one. Um, I wasn't going to jump into that, but you know, do you want to like, cause I, lately I've been more addicted to my phone. I've. Always been addicted to my phone. There's no doubt about it. Um, I don't know if you want to dive into this, but I kind of do right now. So, uh, if you don't mind, yeah, perfect. Um, where does, where does social media and technology play in all of this?
Speaker 2So first I'll admit, like people are like, oh, wow, what's your morning routine? I'm like, first thing I do is I fucking pick up my phone. Like, I'm not going to pretend that I have this one all figured out. I don't, I understand it, but it's, it's very difficult. Um, there's so many. Different factors here. Like even just the color of the screen, like that blue light is very addictive. So we can start there. The like one notification, like that it's literally designed to like release dopamine. You're also, if we're talking about social media, getting validation from the likes you're connecting with people. So it, it kind of is like dopamine and oxytocin, like all in one shot. It's like the fucking super drug, you know? Um, and so I don't. I know, I know some of my clients have, um, these apps where they can like shut it down. Earlier, whatever it is, I haven't downloaded those, but one of when I've been more moderate with my phone, um, even though like I run a business for me, it's really like first thing in the morning, get up and go outside because, you know, or get up and like exercise, like release dopamine from a different way. So it's balanced throughout the day. So then when you're at your phone, it's not like your only source of happiness. And then the brain doesn't think it needs it for survival as much. Yeah.
Speaker 1Um, I've never in my life felt better after doom scrolling, they call it. I learned that one recently, doom scrolling, this like idea of just constantly, you know, and you're in this kind of, it's almost like a subconscious mode where you're just, you know, getting hit with hours go by. Yeah. So I've never felt, I always come out of that situation feeling worse, you know, and this past weekend, uh, you know, I was with a bunch of family and, uh, I was, I'm the kind of person too. You can probably, I think you can relate to this where once, once I start something, I have to finish it sometimes and I'm, I'm working on it. I'm, I'm trying not to, but to the, to the extent and to. The, you know, uh, to the extent of affecting others around me where I'm kind of isolating and that's a dangerous place for me because every time I've relapsed, isolation has usually been the, the first part of it and, you know, I'm good. No, I'm okay. Leave me alone. Right. Um, so I can relate to that a lot and, and I like what you said about getting outside because that, that's kind of the ultimate fix. Anytime I've woken up in a shitty mood and gone right to my computer and, you know, been in this, even though I'm doing stuff and I'm getting shit done and it's work, usually I've never felt better. Like never felt good. And so, you know, getting some connection with nature and, and spirituality, which we'll dive into is it's important, right?
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1I want to talk about nutrition. I know we talked about, um, food, but I want to dive into a little bit of it cause I'm, I'm obsessed with it. I love learning about nutrition and how it affects the brain and the body. The gut biome microbiome is, there's a lot of studies and science coming out now that your gut microbiome is like everything almost as important as sleep. Yeah.
Speaker 3If not more important.
Speaker 1Totally. Yeah. Um, how, how does food and types of food affect how we feel and affect our brains?
Speaker 2Yeah. I mean, like some of it is very obvious in the sense where obviously if we're eating whole foods. So when I mean by a whole food, it's like something that's grown on the ground, like you can go and pick it or from a tree, et cetera, you know, bread is not a whole food. You have to, it has to be processed in order for us to like engage in it. And it's through that processing, um, process. That things become more addictive and like less, um, good for us. And so anything that's like whole food base is never really going to cause any, um, you know, imbalances in the body. So, you know, I worked with a lot of people that have diabetes and they're like, oh, my doctor says I can't have fruit. And I'm like, listen, Linda, we have been eating fruit for like hundreds of thousands of years. Like fruit is not the fucking problem. Um, and so it is through these like processings of things and in Canada and the United States, unfortunately. There are very few laws around like what we can put in our food. So Heinz will make a different catch up for Europe as they will for Canada, because Europe is a lot more strict and like, we can't have chemicals. We don't want to kill our people like very basic things, but I'm going to get into like some dark and twisty things, but like, you know, here where we have big pharma where actually these companies are like working together, where the, the, they don't want us dead. They want us just sick enough that we're taking a bunch of different pharmaceuticals, you know, on high blood pressure, high cholesterol, et cetera, then we're profitable. Right. And so. Yeah. Like the more that you can eat, I don't care if you eat fruits all day long or you prefer vegetables. I'm definitely, um, a big believer in like not the carnivore diet, but I'm, I was vegan and vegetarian for a long time and it like destroyed my body. And so if it's a moral thing and you, you know, you want to stay away from animals in that way, that's different. But I do believe that we need like animal based protein in our diet, but as long as you're getting like, you know, you're eating like the, our ancestors would like everything is going to be fine. But if we start to have processing, that's where we start to elevate blood sugar, which increases cravings, which, you know, lights up different neurochemicals, like a banana is going to release so much dopamine compared to like a chocolate bar. Right. So.
Speaker 1Yeah. Um, what do you, do you think like eating in the morning is important? What's your thought around that? Cause I know there's a lot of, I listened to a lot of podcasts and there's a lot of conflicting knowledge, science out there.
Speaker 2So it's actually very different for men and for women and depending on where the woman is, um, from her levels of stress. Her hormonal cycle, et cetera, all of that stuff comes into play. So men are on a 24 hour hormonal cycle, whereas women were on a 24 hour hormonal cycle plus a 28 to 30 day hormonal cycle. And so for men, intermittent fasting can be quite beneficial because you know, we allow the body to go into autophagy. Like we don't, you are allowing for processes, you're detoxing, you're, you're, um, breaking things down. As long as the fast is, you know, you're listening to that first true hunger cue then, and you're, uh, you're attuned to it. You're attuned to your, your real hunger cues. You're not just going off of cravings. It's great for women. The intermittent fasting gets kind of denatured because oftentimes I have clients and they're like, I barely eat anything. I'm not losing any weight. And I'm like, well, you're running on adrenaline. You're not actually ever going into your, your, your, um, storage of fat to burn it for energy. And so when we, when women have two long fasting periods, plus we have cortisol, plus we have all these things. We're not actually even burning our fat. We're just running on this like adrenaline cycle. And that becomes very dangerous for us. Because first of all, weight loss is pretty much impossible there, but you're never actually hearing true hunger cues until it's like 7:00 PM and you've opened the floodgates of eating and you're, you've starved yourself all day long and then now we can't control ourselves. Right. And so, um, I don't know if I answered your question, but I personally not really hungry for breakfast. What I've disliked a lot for, from this intermittent fasting thing is I never, I don't think it should ever be like a diet. So it's not like 21 hour fast, 18 hour fast, because then you're not listening to that first hunger cue. Typically I don't eat first thing in the morning, but sometimes at 9:00 AM I want a croissant and I'm going to eat it more often than not. It's like 12 where I feel kind of peckish. But as long as you are like listening to the hunger cues and you're giving yourself enough time to have a fasting period, it's all great.
Speaker 1Yeah. That's simple. I like that. Um, listen to the cues. Cause we, we know they're there. It's just a matter of kind of taking a second and, and just, you know, oh yeah, I'm actually hungry. I'm not bored. Um, the intermittent fasting thing is interesting to me because I went down a rabbit hole. Uh, like a good addict does, uh, when that first came and got popular like five years ago. And everyone was like, you gotta try this. It's killing, uh, uh, atophagy is when cells kill each other. Is that yeah. The bad cells, the good cells kill the bad cells. Um, I was all in on that and Dr. Rhonda, Rhonda Patrick, I think was a big proponent of it. Um, it didn't work for me because exactly, and I didn't realize this until you brought it up. This, it was too restrictive for me. And so by, I would have to cram in all my, my meals between 12 and eight. And then from, you know, probably around 9:00 AM to 12 lunch, I was miserable. I was, that's all I could think about. And then 12 would come and I would gorge my lunch eight before, you know, seven o'clock would come and I would, I got to get it all in. I got to. And so I just ended up, I somehow managed to cram over 3,500 calories every day. Like over that, the, probably the max amount that I should have been for weight loss. Let's say, you know, for my BM, BM, BMR and all that other science and stuff like that. but I would manage to get like four or 5,000 calories in like an eight hour window. this is not I don't this is not better right I'm miserable I hate myself and you know I'm waking up in the morning I talked about this on my podcast before I'm waking up in the morning and for so long the first thing I'm doing is looking in the mirror and like you're fat you're swollen you ate too much last night and to your point of the subconscious I didn't even realize I was doing it it was just so natural for me that like how am I gonna have how am I gonna be confident in
Speaker 2myself if that's how I start my day yeah I love what you mentioned about the mirror work because I also think that that's a huge factor for like body dysmorphia and eating disorders and all the things because your daily behaviors match your deepest beliefs about yourself not your goals and your dreams right so if you wake up in the morning and you look in the mirror and you're like you're a fat piece of shit like your behaviors are gonna match that like nobody ever looks in the mirror and is like oh my god I'm so fat let me get my ass to the gym and like get my shit you think you think that that's what's gonna happen you're like gotta get my shit together right but this is what's gonna happen to me and that's what's gonna happen to me and that's what's gonna happen to me and that's what's gonna happen to me and that's what's gonna happen to me and that's what's gonna happen to me and that's what's gonna happen to me and that's what's gonna happen to me right but that humiliation that inner critic keeps you stuck in the cycles that keeps your identity where it's at right the brain's number one job is to remain consistent to its identity that's why we don't have to reteach ourselves how to brush our teeth it's very important it's very adaptive that we remember who we are but if we have a very negative self-concept no matter how much you want to release the weight go to the gym you know change your behavior stop using drugs if your identity of yourself is i'm a failure i'm fat your behaviors are going to match that do you believe in this
Speaker 1positive mirror work these positive affirmations i do i i think that listen if you're 350 pounds
Speaker 2and you're looking in the mirror and you go i'm skinny like it's almost worse right there needs to be like a bridge like a gap a stepping stone where um we the affirmations are actually resonating and you genuinely do feel good about yourself because the goal is that you feel good about yourself the majority of the time the better you feel about yourself the easier it is
Speaker 1to make healthier decisions but to your point um you know nobody's benefiting if you're lying to yourself every day in the mirror it won't work yeah yeah um i remember david goggins do you know david his book changed my life when i read his first book that's how i got into marathon running and uh he would always like and i did this too i don't know if it's healthy or not but he would say he'd had that exercise where you put the sticky notes on the mirror and it was just like all the things about you that were true and uh i think yeah some of them were like you know you're overweight and stuff like that and i'm looking back now and i'm like maybe that wasn't the most positive thing but uh there was definitely value to some of it right like um it would motivate me to do certain things right
Speaker 2totally and like there but there's a very big difference between like motivation to run a marathon and like longevity and healthy behaviors and this is like why i i love doing the work i do because one of my biggest claims to fame is like my clients haven't worked me with me for over two years and they're still releasing weight like usually you once you stop a diet you gain the weight back eighty percent of diets end that way like literally within 12 months you've gained all the weight back and sometimes more but that like motivation of um you know it's getting me to like this end goal of doing the marathon like yeah you can beat yourself up all day long to to get that end goal but is it going to create longevity and lifelong success no because it's going to keep you stuck in the cycle of restrict or over exercise or whatever temporarily yeah i'm happy to be honest
Speaker 1i don't um i do kind of miss it because it was it was amazing how i felt every day running but i i know there's a like there's a good reason i don't do it anymore yeah it took up a lot of time and
Speaker 2energy and food listen like i was married for 11 years for the majority of my marriage i i was no longer using substances but didn't know how else to escape so i would wake up at 4 a.m in the morning i have two young kids i would run 20 kilometers every single day every day like i broke my body i didn't stop until i started fainting and i had to stop like it's like it's it's unhealthy
Speaker 1for me anyways wow were you at least uh running in zone two when you were doing
Speaker 2jesus yeah um i i just know like i get very obsessive about certain behaviors and i just know where my comfy spot is and then it was weight training for a while and hit training and it's now it's just like if i go to pilates great if i don't like it's okay yeah yeah that's funny i'm in the
Speaker 1same i'm in the same place right now and i'm really happy that i am because yeah it's i don't beat myself i used to always if i didn't go to the gym it would ruin my day i was unbearable like my my
Speaker 2poor ex-husband was like literally the only time i'm happy is when i'm gone running and then when i come back i'm irritable and and then if i don't go it's even worse all day i'm obsessing about how i haven't gone and and you know then it feeds into like oh i'm gonna gain weight and like all these
Speaker 1ridiculous things yeah or you're a piece of shit or yeah you're not good enough whatever for me anyways yeah um i went through a phase uh where psychedelics were you know um a very real possibility in my in my recovery and i'm really happy today that i didn't indulge in them um i had booked i talk about this you know if you've heard this before i apologize but i had booked an ayahuasca trip a retreat with like a shaman and up north and i paid and i was ready to go and i'll tell you that i was sitting with my uh therapist one day and she's you know she's sober as well um but she's great i love her and she kind of she posed it in a way that changed my relationship with it and this is for me it works for a lot of people which you're going to get into but she kind of asked me this one question and she said do you know anybody that's done it once and i was like i really thought about it and i'm like no i don't so she said what makes you think you're gonna do it once and because i that was my idea right it's always like i said to you before it's always the first piece of cake it's always the first drag of the cigarette it's always the first line i don't envision myself doing 30 ayahuasca trips you know because what's the point of that i just need one yeah kind of get me to find god right yes what's your uh what's your experience with psychedelics in recovery
Speaker 2yeah okay so my experience with psychedelics started when i was in high school right and one of the things that i recognized about you know i'm using them recreationally fucking around with my friends but what was interesting and different about the psychedelic experience is that you know you're on a diet of cocaine and drinking the next day you're in withdrawal you'll do it again etc after using psychedelics like i had zero desire to even smoke cigarettes and i was like a pack a day kind of girl like and so it's you know having that experience recreationally and then me trying to problem solve finding trying to find answers for my clients who cannot be abstinent from food etc i agree with you actually and i had um a few clients that were in the rehab clinic that said you know they tried usually they tried microdosing etc and it became a habit and i was like oh my god i can't do this anymore and i was like oh my god i can't do this anymore and so it became kind of addictive for them and so it definitely is different for everybody so obviously like work with your therapist like like consult somebody you don't just take this as a medical advice um but from the perspective of eating and why it works um not just with eating but with substance abuse is essentially it's going to balance out it's like an adaptogen so it's going to balance out a lot of the receptors that make an individual um want dopamine so it's working a lot on the serotonin 2a receptor and serotonin and dopamine are actually different actually opposite of one another so when we're releasing dopamine we want more we're motivated to move when we have serotonin like we're good we're satiated like we have everything it's one of the reasons why when you wake up and you go outside first thing in the morning you're getting serotonin you're not getting dopamine it makes you feel balanced and good and satiated right and so psychedelics are going to neurochemically work on that serotonin 2a receptor to balance your nervous system so you're not in craving as much but it's also going to offer this like spiritual awakening which is why when dr albert hoffman in the 19th century he was a psychologist and he was a psychologist and he was a psychologist and he was in the 1940s first founded lsd he's it began he began to use it for um alcoholics and these like treatment resistant disorders and um this is also where a lot of the like you know popular people who work in addictions like started their agencies is through the psychedelic experience because we call it i know i said this to you before but like we call it recovery when we're in recovery well what are we recovering we're recovering ourselves so when somebody is addicted to something we are so separate from who we really are because we're escaping ourselves we don't want to look at ourselves but when we're doing this psychedelic experience it's kind of like the spiritual awakening of like we see ourselves we accept ourselves we become one with who we are we connect with that higher self and we begin to like love ourselves more and so when we can facilitate that process it can be very life-changing um again like i don't believe in any magic pills i think all that shit is bullshit i think you need to like continually work at something and train the brain but i have seen a lot of really positive things that have been positive um results and my thesis was on using um psychedelic therapy for over consumption of food and um it was really powerful and like it did all of the clients who were using the psychedelics in a macro dose or a micro dose were able to not have as many cravings to change their relationship to food because they like connected with who they really are yeah i was at a wedding one time and
Speaker 1i heard uh one of the best wedding speeches was the father of the bride he said something that i'll never forget for the rest of my life he said we have two jobs in the world and i'm going to have two jobs in this life to find ourselves and to love that true selves to find our true self and to love that true self and i was like oh it's simple yeah it's not easy but it's simple like that i can relate to that you know and and i've done a lot of work around it and i find today um i'm not you know i can love myself today i go in and out i waver from it um but yeah spiritual experience to me you know the thought is um i need to have a profound alteration in my reaction to life as it you know it says in one of the literature that i'm not going to be able to read i didn't make that up but uh it's true i i react to the world in such a negative way and i react to myself in such a negative way that i come into recovery and i need to have this i need it's i found that it's essential for me for for me and for a lot of people i've seen i need to have a profound alteration in my reaction to life it's like when somebody cuts me off in traffic my first thought is to go murder that guy's family right like sometimes my brain just goes to this like like we said these alternate endings in the movie um but i need to i need to stop and have this okay it's not that bad or it's not about you or and you know it works with everything and it's really hard it works with you know somebody gets diagnosed with cancer like on a more extreme level it's like well i know it doesn't seem like it right now but there is a reason there's a gift here somewhere right there's a silver lining and so that's kind of the way i i look at it today
Speaker 2yeah listen like friday my jeep got stolen out of my driveway another one and i had a root canal on the same day got into a fight with my boyfriend like i was like i was bawling but i was like this is the worst day of my whole life and like i just like couldn't get to that positive place you know when it just feels like everything's crashing down i know this is like very like first world problems my jeep got stolen out of my driveway but like it this the way that the brain conceptualizes trauma is what's important it was like so traumatic for me it felt like everything was getting taken away and if unless we can change our response to like the things that we're thinking and feeling like we will suffer like that's just the truth yeah there's
Speaker 1a huge difference i was taught this there's a huge difference between pain and suffering right pain is is inevitable suffering is optional it's like i can say yeah i've heard that from um a mentor of mine i can sit in this all day and i'm suffering but i can choose to kind of get out of it it's hard it's really hard yeah um i i want to be clear too when i said another one you know you haven't had two jeeps stolen no no i just we have a problem in the city with people stealing and i'm smiling about it but it actually pisses me off yeah um yeah that's a huge problem i'm sorry to hear that that's okay how did you okay so how did you how did you get out of that yeah um i cried
Speaker 2a lot uh i basically thought the world was ending um and then i have a mentor like i believe that one of the reasons that like keeps me sober is that i obviously work with individuals so like even just what you're doing here like this is such an important thing and people who are in recovery should always be immersed in the um community i believe but i have a mentor and i basically was like sos like and she kind of like talked me down all the time and i was like oh my god i can't do this and she kind of like talked me down off of it and the funny thing is like as the days have gone on like there have just been little silver linings like you know the day that my jeep got stolen my dad the day before my dad spent four hours the poor man in his 80s cleaning the whole thing so we took everything out so all of my son's hockey gear this vintage motorcycle helmet that i have wow like my two thousand dollar speaker like everything was taken out of the jeep first right and so i'm like okay like you know everything could have gotten stolen um so like you just have to find these little like pockets of oh maybe my insurance is going to give me a massive payout and i can get something better you just have to like you just have to find the little pockets of joy i
Speaker 1guess i don't know my first thought was that too the insurance oh i wonder if she's going to get right i'm like well big win yeah oh man that's awesome what okay so we talked a lot of good stuff today um what what sort of tools or practical things can people use if uh you mentioned a lot of them but just you know i don't know i don't know if there's a lot of tools or practical things can people use if uh you mentioned a lot of them but just what sort of tools or practical things can people use if uh you mentioned a lot of them but just you know what what's what's something that someone can take away from this that they can actually implement in their life um if they have a problem or they think they might have a problem with with
Speaker 2food addiction or their relationship to food or body dysmorphia yeah so um i've done a ted talk so maybe link it up because i i like go through the i'll go through like i go through like very succinct things but um just pulling from that like first of all you can't hate your way to a body that you love like point blank the more you criticize yourself the more you will self-sabotage because like your daily behaviors match your identity right um the second thing is uh really being able to differentiate between craving like true like craving and true hunger and it's difficult right because you know that desire for food is so prominent all day long and it's used to escape from work or to escape boredom or to facilitate feelings of oxytocin so i have a little trick that i do with my clients and it's called the broccoli test and so if you're hungry just ask yourself this one question like would i eat raw broccoli right now if the answer's no then you're not hungry and that doesn't mean that you can't eat it just means that you're no longer tricking yourself into thinking that a craving is true hunger and that's the important differentiation right because the brain is will will rationalize and tell you all these crazy things to get it to engage in that one thing right like it'll tell you oh i deserve it today i you know i worked hard i'll start again on monday like all these crazy rationalizations just to gain access to the thing that it thinks it needs and so when you can at least be honest and be like this isn't true hunger i'm still going to eat the chocolate bar right but at least i'm recognizing i'm responding to a craving not actual hunger the next thing is and i mentioned it but i'll reiterate but you just never the last bite is never going to give you anything more than the first bite did ever right especially when we're talking about these like processed highly palatable foods and so if i'm eating literally the most delicious like gooey chocolate chip cookie like or the things that i love the most i always leave the last bite it's just a little like trick that i play with myself because it's not going to give me anything more than the first bite did it has zero nutrients right and so what that does is it immediately puts you in the driver's seat where the cookie no longer has the power you do you get to go no thank you right and then the last thing and we touched on this too is that like we are primitive human beings like we are bipedal we are designed to be out in the sun and the blue light is like really messing with our mental health and our hormones and neurochemistry so like if you can get outside and walk every single day you're gonna that's the thing that's gonna change your life the most honestly
Speaker 1wow amazing i i learned so much today i really appreciate you yeah no it's it's good um i think this is one of those things where people don't realize that it it can become a problem or maybe it is a problem or maybe it's not maybe you're not struggling with it and you don't but it's it's good to know and you've you've taught me a lot of practical things um that that last bite yeah like i don't need to finish this i i was brought up in an italian household too where uh you don't waste food because you know so and so right you just don't do it and so now today it's like ingrained in my brain that i i have to finish my plate and uh that's not the case right where where
Speaker 2can we find you jordan yeah so i'm i'm not a super tech savvy person but i like live on instagram i i tiktok i never use it so instagram would be the place to find me i have a website i'm sure you'll link it up and i also have a podcast so um that has a lot of um i dive deep into you know food psychology and addiction and all of that in there so yeah i'll link all of that in the show thanks
Speaker 4so much for coming thank you for having me i had so much fun yeah me too that was great thanks for listening please help us grow the channel and like share and subscribe for more content the discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for informational and motivational purposes only not a substitute for professional medical advice addiction treatment or therapy if you or someone you know is struggling with addiction please consult a licensed physician addiction specialist or mental health professional you are no longer alone who says halloween only lasts one
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