Speaker 1Hi there. Welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud podcast, the show where we get real about addiction and mental health recovery. I'm so glad you're here. If you or someone you love is struggling with drugs or alcohol, please reach out to me on any social media platform at recoveringoutloudpod or by email at recoveringoutloudpod at gmail.com. Enjoy the show.
Speaker 2By the way, do you go by Ben? You can say the syllables if you want. I'm actually Benjamin Lerner because there's like a poet, like he's a pretty big cheese. His name's Ben Lerner, like Pulitzer prizes and all that. So I do the Benjamin for my platform. So to not step on his stuff, but you can call me Benjamin Lerner. I'm actually Benjamin Lerner because there's like a
Speaker 1Ben if you want. It's all good. It's funny when I was, uh, I was Googling you and looking up more of, uh, of your songs today, which are great by the way. I really appreciate recovery rap. I know you don't get offended by that, but like, nah, I celebrate it. Yeah. It's not really a thing, right? Like I haven't really found it other than you. And it's what you're doing is amazing, man. I truly, I love the music. It like I vibe to in my car. It's not just good lyrics. It's actually, I vibe to it, you know, it's, it's good music, man. So keep making my day. Thank you. I love it. Um, but yeah, Ben, thanks so much for coming down, man. But yeah, to, to touch on my earlier point, when I, um, when I Googled your name, what I was getting at is that guy came up that poet and
Speaker 2I was like, well, you're basically a poet. So, you know, it's really cool. Like I've read his stuff. It's very interesting. Um, it's very scholarly. It's very powerful, but me and my producer, we wanted to make it clear that like, you know, it's, it's a different thing. So we did the full name and, but if you want to call me Ben, I, my nickname is skinny. You can just call me, random, real beanie hat, man. Like that's what some people will say in other comments. They're like, Oh, like I follow you and the long haired guy with the hat. And I'm like, that's me long hair hat guy. So whatever works, but you, you know, you, you probably, I'm going to assume this
Speaker 1because I haven't met you before, uh, recovery, but you probably didn't always look this good. You'll probably always didn't look healthy. Um, you're, you know, no stranger to, uh, opiates and, and drugs. And, uh, you talk about that openly. Um, that's a, a huge problem right now in North America, especially in the United States. And you're, you're from Vermont. So, um, why don't you tell, talk about a little bit about your story and how
Speaker 2you came into recovery? Yeah. So the, forgive my cheesy millennial reference, but the spark notes version used to be this site where you could like, instead of reading a book before chat, GPT and grok and all that, you could like Google the spark notes to pass your test. So the spark notes version is I do live in Vermont, but if my atrocious mid-Atlantic accent, isn't enough of a giveaway, I wasn't born this close to the Northern border. I was born and raised in Washington, DC. Um, I'm the son of two Ivy league educated journalists. I'm not a billionaire, you know, but I have a little bit of a history of privilege in my family. My great grandfather, um, was a Russian immigrant born American composer named Irving Berlin. He wrote God bless America, white Christmas. And I'm not saying that to flex like any family ancestry, just to give context that addiction doesn't discriminate in terms of like where you come from. I know people from the projects and trailer parks who now own million dollar businesses because they got their life right in recovery. And I know people who grew up in houses that dwarfed my nice suburban house growing up and all it got them is a nicer box when the fentanyl took them out. Um, but you know, the best way I can describe it is that I was an alcoholic and addict before I ever took my first drink because I was always fixated on an external solution to help me navigate or just kind of kick the metaphor can down the road of my internal problems. And before, you know, the drink ever hit my mouth or the needle ever hit my vein, I found solace in temporary gratification through approval from other people, you know, for other shameless millennial references, it was pogs, Pokemon cards, Digimon cards, N64 and PlayStation games, just fixated on collecting things, collecting approval and attaboys from other people. And so by the time, like, you know, I was diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder at the time they called it Asperger's early on. So I had these kinds of like hyper fixations, which kind of primed the pump for the self-soothing self-stemming stuff that, you know, I had little sips of alcohol here and there, but when I was 13 years old, even though I had a sip of wine, sip of beer at my parents' dinner party or sneaking out of the fridge out of curiosity, I don't consider those my first drinks or first use because I didn't know what it was doing for me. My consider my first drink when I knew the effect that alcohol gave me because it made me feel a little euphoric. And then I consciously sought that out. And that was when I was like 13, 14. I don't really remember the age. It was like seventh or eighth grade, but I'll never forget the day because I was over at my friend's house, like playing video games as a sleepover. And we got the brilliant idea that we were going to steal liquor from his parents cabinet, but the bottles were too far down. And I think they might've even been marked because he had an older sister in high school and his parents were trying to like make sure she didn't do that. But we found this musty disgusting six pack of Sam Adams in the basement. And it had like mold and cobwebs on the, on the like tops of the bottles. And we both popped one and he took one sip and he practically spat it out. I was like, this is disgusting. But me being an alcoholic, I downed that lukewarm moldy beer. And it was like, when you go on an airplane and your ears pop, it was like just the whole weight, anxiety, like self-centered fear. Just immediately evaporated, but it came at a price. And the price is that over the next 10 years over my active use, it escalated very quickly. And it went from suburban things like me showing up late to a piano recital or a track meet to me crashing my car, dropping out of school, escalating from drinking and cannabis to Coke, Molly, and then eventually crossing every line. I thought I wouldn't cross. Uh, you know, I had all these delusions because I went to private school. I grew up in a certain way that like, because the surroundings were glamorous, I was slowly desensitized into escalating my use and honestly trying to emulate this fake persona I did because it wasn't just that, like I was numbing and mollifying my internal anxiety through the chemicals that actually became my identity. Cause as an awkward, lanky autistic kid, I was insecure and I didn't think people wanted me to be part of their community. And part of that was delusional self-hatred, but part of it was also just anxiety and like an identity crisis about not knowing who I was. But when I had the beer and the, and the bag of weed in my hand, I didn't, wasn't just able to change consciousness. I was able to be that guy that it was a material extension of my worth. So it was two problems. First and foremost was me self-medicating. But second was that I didn't know who I was without the props of having like the bottle and the bag in my hand, the same way people wouldn't want to hang out with me as a sleepover when I was young. So I'd bring the GameCube games or the PlayStation two games, and they wouldn't want to hang out with me, but I'd have that. So the party favors became that. And, you know, I stole hundreds of thousands of dollars from my family and I crashed my car after a six month long bender, stealing my college fund money and lying to my friends saying I was this suburban, you know, uptown trap star when really I was sneaking into my mom's purse to steal checks. But it all came to a crashing halt when I slammed my car hydroplaning into three other cars when I was 20 years old in 2012. But when the cops pulled up in this whole scene, carnage wrecked cars, thank God nobody was hurt. The only thing I cared about was when they put the cuffs on me and breathalyzed me because I was hung over and kind of still drunk. It wasn't is anybody else okay? Like my parents are going to find out I stole like a couple hundred grand from them. It's like, I'm not going to be able to drink and use today. That's all I cared about. I was a selfish, just self-destructive person. And then at that point, the only line I thought I wouldn't cross was like prescriptions because, you know, I was like snorting a ball of Coke a day. I was drinking a fifth of whiskey, but I was an uptown Coke dealer. I was a high bottom, low bottom alcoholic. But once I got prescribed perks for my dental surgery, you know, that little moment of the pop and the decompression with the beer in my friend's basement was magnified a hundred times. And alcohol is a very blunt and crude instrument. It activates a lot of different neurotransmitter sites, but that opioids, that endorphin and that dopamine, it just took me, man. And it wasn't suburban anymore. After that, I went days without eating, pawning everything that I had going down to the tenderloin out in San Francisco, where I enrolled in art school because my family wanted me to succeed. And all the fantasies I had of being this like suburban Scarface character turned real quick into something a lot less glamorous than me crossing every line, smoking Roxy's off a foil, shooting dope, you know, shooting fentanyl, smoking crack, picking cigarettes out the gutter, lancing abscesses with blunt needles, passing out in movie theaters. I never got Narcan, but I would wake up blue in the face. my whole body falling asleep, tingling, security guard shaking. me awake passing out on my friends couches them trying to revive me and all that said i still justified all those escalating consequences by the fact that at that point the funny thing is my parents at this point were sending me in and out of rehab you know staging interventions of a small magnitude but the sad thing is they only thought that i was high when i was in withdrawal because i was agitated i was sweating and i was all like the stereotypes of an addict when i didn't have my dope but when i did i was kind i was courteous i was stealing from them but to the face i was very well adjusted and so they would only ever confront me when i was dope sick and they would try to get me to go to treatment and i'd agree just to placate him but i didn't really want to get sober you know having a seizure with my father at the hospital bed out in frisco and them having to load me up with ativan to stop a disconnection i had a seizure me biting my tongue and like asphyxiating and all that didn't do it friends dying didn't do it crashing my car didn't do it what made me want to get sober is when i went up to new york uh and i copped the bundle of feddy lace dope and i shot three bags and i didn't get high i got physically high but i didn't get spiritually or emotionally high and that was scary to me because all consequences aside i still live with the delusion that an external chemical solution could solve my problem but that's the point that i went to treatment and i called the treatment center with the needle in my arm i had been to inpatient before outpatient countless times but just to placate other people but when it got to the point that i had hit a wall like when you're slamming multiple bags of feddy lace dope and like chief and grabs a crack like within an hour like there's no further escalation that you can go from that so i had to seek out another solution and that's the point i was finally beaten into a state of reason and i went there for myself and that day was june 13th 2016 and by the grace of god or whatever word or understanding works for y'all whatever you want to call it it's all the same to me i've been clean
Speaker 1sober ever since amazing man that's that's i i resonated with a lot there um i i truly you know i hadn't thought about this in a while but yeah it's like i got to a point where the drug stopped working right they stopped providing their purpose which was you said it perfectly using outside things i'm paraphrasing but using outside things to fix my insides whether it was love from you um you know attaboys that was a big one for me like noticing me um you know loving me whatever that looked like and uh you know it wasn't until because i yeah i i went to treatment um i've been to three and um every time i went there it was for my parents for my wife just to get them off my back right and so i was like okay i'm gonna do this and i'm gonna do this and i'm gonna do this and i'm gonna do this right and i knew i had a problem but i wasn't going for myself it wasn't until i really stayed and did the work and started taking some direction from people or it's like anthony maybe your way is not not the right way maybe you're maybe you're wrong about how to get sober maybe you're wrong about a lot of things and that open-mindedness and willingness to kind of like actually you know i need to do this for myself because i'm gonna die and i'm not happy right the drugs like there is no more solution anymore to my problem because the drugs and alcohol stopped working um was there a moment in that treatment center that final one where where you kind of flipped to do it for yourself like do you remember what that moment looked like where you you said i'm gonna do this thing for real now yeah so before i left i knew that i wanted to do it
Speaker 2for myself but when i got there i made a stupid decision which is Addiction transfers separate from chemicals, I fully believe. And regardless of if you run out of dope, but there's like a liquor store, even if liquor ain't your thing. Like I knew sometimes like to fend off the shakes or the seizures like off benzos or dope, even though that was my thing. I didn't even like drinking at the end. I would go grab a fifth of whiskey and just start chugging it, even if it made me sick, just to do something else. And so in treatment, there were no substances, but there were people. And so I selfishly made the move of attaching myself to another person, hooking up with her. And she was going through a lot of stuff, too. She was like a really cool person, but like I selfishly took her being interested in me because we were both broken people looking for a distraction. And I made her my new addiction. And we only hooked up once, but like I attached my whole identity and recovery on to another person. And so when she stopped talking to me because someone spread like a rumor that I had like an STD out of whatever, like. Rehab drama or whatever. I packed my bags and I wanted to leave because at that point I had detoxed. I was chemically sober. I kicked like they did a three day suboxone taper. It was excruciating. I was throwing up, sweating, like nodding out, not even from being high, just being like my whole neurotransmitters were depleted. It was agony. But I got through that. But poetically, when I got through that is when she stopped talking to me and I had a detox process emotionally and spiritually that even though it wasn't as physically painful. It was like I was really alone and with myself. I didn't have an external thing that I could. And so I called my family and I was like, I can't do this. And it wasn't about the chemical detox. It was about the spiritual and emotional detox. And so I was sitting in the room. I had called a cab. I had conned my family into saying I'm going to go to another treatment center. But really what I was planning to do was the commuter train from Lancaster County, Pennsylvania to Philadelphia. I was. I was going to. I said I was going to take a train to Philly from Lancaster and then back to D.C. to go to treatment and like me, my family there. But I was really going to do is go to Kensington in Philly and take the 300. They sent me for a train ticket and like go cop a couple bundles and check out because a lot of kids there were Kenzo Kensington kids. And they told me about the blocks to go to and everything. And that was my plan. I it wasn't necessarily suicidal, but I was just like, whatever happens happens. Like I'm going to Kensington. I'm buying a bunch of bags. I know my tolerance is low. And I because I knew I couldn't keep using because eventually it was going to get to the point it didn't work. And I thought I couldn't live life sober. So I'm sitting in this room with this counselor and she's giving me this whole half lidded like, mm hmm. I'm like, I'm going to another treatment center. This isn't just the right fit for me. Like she's just like, yeah, tell me more. Like I'm the first person who's ever against medical advice left. But then I see a mirror. Right. It might not even been like a mirror. It might have been like. Like a metallic surface or something. But I saw my reflection clear as day. And at the time I had scabs from picking off of the itching from the opioids and like staying up for multiple days, smoking crack. I had bags under my eyes, even though I was 24. I'm 33 now. Make these look like nothing. It was it was bad. I look like a 40 year old career hardened addict. I have scruffy beard like Shaggy from Scooby Doo. I wasn't looking good. But funnily enough, when I looked at myself there, I didn't see me then. I saw the same scared, insecure child that used to hide under the table with my hands over my ears as an autistic four year old and the Toys R Us because the whole world felt like it was screaming at me. The kid whose parents got divorced, the kid who had that beer in the basement. And then it kind of all flashed. And I saw like. It's going to take more work for me to keep running from this than it is for me to run towards the truth and the pain. And I'm. And it was not just literally running, like taking the cab and going to Kensington. I'm like, no, it's not even the drugs. It's not even anything like that. It's like you're afraid of your reflection. It's not the withdrawal. It's not romantic disappointment. Like, yeah, all that's powerful, but you're afraid of yourself. And no matter where you go, even if you pass away like you are going to be there, like it's still going to be you. So you have to face this. And so I canceled the cab. And after that, I didn't just it wasn't just about. Like chemical sobriety, like beautiful things happen in there. Like the day I decided to stay, the person who had been running like the cafeteria program, like they appoint certain people, you know, in the center who are who are patients to like serve food to people and wake up at 6 a.m. instead of seven or eight to like go and like help serve the food, cook the food, plate the food. And and I started doing that breakfast, lunch and dinner whenever they let me. I started allowing myself to be of service. Not. Just like in any recovery group or anything, because, yeah, they had groups and stuff, but it was just like, can I help clean? Can I help do this? And I found that by getting out of myself in the beginning, it was a distraction, but it was a sense of purpose bigger than just staying sober, like finding ways to apply principles of recovery towards my life. And so I think that's the moment where I'm not going to say I got everything because there were a lot of experiences I had after that, where whether it was relationships or personal setbacks like. I wanted to use I wanted to give it up where a series of serendipitous miracles put me towards people who helped me through it when I fell, even though I didn't go back to using like I came close. But that was the first moment where I had an epiphany that it was up to me to do the work. And more than that, that it was a privilege to do that because the life I would be afforded by doing that work was better than what the bag could give me.
Speaker 1Yeah, man, I love that. And I couldn't help but laugh there. Because I hadn't talked to somebody yet that I did the exact same thing. I was fed up with the treatment center I was in, you know, this past January, and they weren't doing things my way, right, like they weren't, you know. things weren't going according to Anthony's plan and I was like I've been to two treatment centers that were better than this one and you know don't you know I you know I was trying to run the whole place right you know the uh the actor that they talk about you know trying to be the sorry the director and the actor trying to do everything arrange the lights right sweep the floor I was trying to be that guy and uh don't you know you're not living according to Anthony's plan and you know it's not it could be better here and I had the exact same situation where I sat down with a counselor and he just looked at me and he was doing the whole like yeah you're going to go to another treatment center a better one yeah is that that's what you're going to do okay he wasn't saying that but he was clearly you know communicating it with his face and I actually did end up leaving that treatment center and I'll never forget this I I went home I started looking for another treatment center and um I called my therapist I don't know why and again this is why I believe in God spirituality higher power whatever you want to call it like you said something something came into a thought came into my head much like what happened with you where I had this kind of epiphany where I was like my therapist is is in sobriety and recovery and she I just had this thought to to facetime her I don't know why you know I hadn't thought about her in a while and I facetimed her and I told her my plan my idea right and and this is I found this to be so helpful in recovery today I always I always try to tell people that this is what helps me the most is reaching out and like sharing your your ideas with people like here's my plan here's what I could do because I didn't do that when I relapsed after eight years that's what took me out was having this plan to and for me it was getting into performance enhancing drugs right not mind altering not you know all this like you know BS in my head that I was spinning this justification I can get a prescription from a doctor so it's all good I didn't I wasn't telling people about my plans and that's what ultimately took me back out right I didn't run things by people I I just acted on my will and my plan and that's what got me in here the first place I forgot that I forgot that that's what got me into the hotel rooms by myself you know uh smoking meth snorting whatever the hell I was doing with people I shouldn't have been around I wasn't telling people my ideas my plan so this time I called her and she right away she listened to me and she just goes Anthony like you know you have to go back to that treatment center right you got and she said it in a not so nice way but I you know she knows me by now I need that tough love right you need to get your effing ass back there and I I thought about it I prayed about it because that's what I was taught to do right uh I I I asked for help and uh I went back then I called the treatment center and I said hey you know I made a mistake I'm sorry like I shouldn't have done that and uh I I apologize for my actions right I I kind of lost it on some people too I I kept it pretty calm but can I come back and they took me back that next day right I went to a recovery group that night and uh funny enough actually one of the guys at that meeting that stood up and and talked he ended up coming into the treatment center that night that I went back there and I saw him and I was like holy you know I did one of these where I just kind of looked up and I was like okay you know I get it like this is where I'm supposed to be thanks buddy and uh you know those moments happen in my life all the time I just have to notice them right I have to have to notice these little God shots God winks whatever you want to call them um but yeah it's not easy it's uh and to your point it's like life wasn't perfect after that but that I always think like if you had taken that train if you had acted on that will you you might not be sitting here today right like who knows right we don't know and that's the thing when we pick up like I people are like oh I know what's going to happen I'm gonna I'm like I don't know dude like I I've never used a needle um I I have used a needle but I haven't used a needle to shoot opiates yet right I always say it's like if I close this call today and go I always say this if I close this and say bye to you and go back out there and start drinking again all bets are off dude like I don't know what's gonna happen next right because I'm an addict and an alcoholic and I one is too many a thousand is never enough I always want more I don't know how to stop I don't have an off button uh so it's not even worth testing it today you know yeah of
Speaker 2course and you know the addictive impulse for me isn't necessarily just tied to a chemical I think that regardless of whether my relapse is chemical of course that's going to have the most devastating consequences it's going to reset the clock it's going to do all kinds of like internal neurological damage and you know the way that I get down I'm probably going to be sitting under a stone but but separate from that I think that regardless of what phase and recovery you're at and regardless of what delusions get you back to that place of turning to whatever destructive solution it is I can completely destroy my life today in ways that have nothing to do with chemicals I mean I'm a father of two I um I work a fairly demanding job in addition to the content and like the other stuff that I do and you know I can just walk around salty and just self-destructive all day and and it just like under the surface like there's some people who say all all relapses are premeditated and I think some are kind of spur of the moment but regardless of like the amount of premeditation that goes into anything there's always something bubbling underneath the surface and so I still get cravings from time to time over the past few years it's gotten a little better in terms of the chemical cravings I don't know what it is might just be that because like you know I'm working a lot and I have kids like I don't really have time to even like think that much about that but you know in terms of in terms of the anger piece in terms of the resentment piece in terms of like the self-centered fear piece today it's like yeah I might not be going out there and drinking or using but like the same wreckage can happen real quick if I'm not willing to just take the same action that I did in that treatment center in a different way because the insidious thing about it is I can think well I don't have a craving to use today so that must mean I'm doing pretty well that must mean I'm a pretty hot potato man and then I'll be like yelling at my fiancee in front of my kids like storming out of the door and just like doing all of this stuff and because I'm sober I think oh yeah well you know I got I'm justified in this but see the sad thing about that is that that can open the door for other things so for me today it's like that same motivation always has to be like you say ask for help and the other day I was talking to a person who's very near and dear to me in my recovery he's also a father of two he's a little further along than me and he said something very powerful because you know my whole house was a mess literally because I hadn't been there taking care of my kids I had been selfish working a long time not being there and I tried to justify it and I was tired as heck just picking up all the toys being salty that I had to do it and he's like you know it's one thing to trust that things are going to be okay when it's not a mess it's another thing entirely to trust that the solution works when you're in the process of picking up the wreckage and he's like yeah good for you you're nine years sober one day at a time but it sounds like your life's still a mess and it sounds like maybe you have to have a little bit of the same even if it's forced and you have to just kind of blindly do it and fake it so you make it humility here because it sounds like even though you're not using you're hitting some jackpots and you're destroying your life pretty good and that and that's a wake-up call to me man because it's like yeah I got a different life now sure from the outside and because I was never a functional addict I wasn't shout out to the people who can do that man I was never that I couldn't hold down a job yeah you know I'm not trying to glorify that but I just couldn't do it and so all these things happen in my recovery and so I I think all these delusional things but at the end of the day whether it's a drink whether it's a shot of dope whether it's you know a line a pill whatever that's one piece but then the next level is how can I actually better my life not just in terms of the toys and prizes and external elements but keep myself actually grounded and grateful so I can be present and so that's the battle I'm fighting now man and it's one day at a time just like recovery is yeah man it was well said yeah I agree it's
Speaker 1like you know just because I'm sober doesn't mean my life is is good or perfect right I I still have bottoms in recovery as as my friends remind me um what what does you mention gratitude there at the end um what does like a I get these gratitude cries every once in a while where I just like you know it'll be a lot it happens a lot when I'm listening to music and I'll be listening to a song and it'll remind me of a time you know camping with my dad or something or um you know usually classic rock because that's what we listen to a lot and I'll just have this moment where I'm just so grateful I start tearing up and I I what does what does gratitude look like to you when you're practicing a good solid recovery
Speaker 2program I'm gonna say that one of the most beautiful moments that I had and I think this also goes to show the strength of the overall recovery community not just for people in recovery but also people who embrace and promote recovery I was on a business trip and I was listening to one of my favorite artists that even though he's not 100 sober really goes out of his way to represent for recovery and he is in recovery from his drug of choice uh but he's not completely sober and some people give him flack for that but that's kind of the whole point of where I'm gonna get to in this and that's jelly roll I was listening to you know what's it Chapel all the like more spiritual songs like she and save me and all that and I was like breaking down crying because again you know I'm sober I'm on this business trip with this international non-profit organization doing like content consultation like just wild stuff hotel boardroom conference dinners it's like Dude, I used to use the same needle like 20 times over a week, like what's good with this? But I'm breaking down because I'm away from my family. I'm away from my recovery resources. And everybody on my team is very supportive of my recovery, but I just don't have a minute to myself. It's just work, work, work, three hours of sleep every night because we're putting everything together. And so I break down and start crying, like you say, listening to this music. And then I go home, and that's the week that his new album drops. And I'm trying to get back with my family. I'm trying to, like, get back right with myself, get back right with my recovery community, balance my life out. And at this point, my youngest son is, like, nine months old. My older son is, like, two and a half almost. And they wake up at, like, 5, 6 a.m., and I got a whole big day of work. And we're out of eggs and milk, and my girl makes some pancakes every morning. Like, you need to go to the store. And I'm just angry, just beyond, like, salty, just dragging my feet to the car. And then I put on, I'm like, oh, the new Jelly Roll album came out today. So I put on the first song of it, which is Winning Streak. And the song, the chorus is, like, I was so afraid to be in this seat till I met a man who was 20 years clean. He said, everybody here has felt the same defeat. Nobody walks through these doors on a winning streak. And it makes me cry. It makes me cry just thinking about it, man, because I drove to the store, and I was, and that line played, like, the second chorus before I pulled up in front of my house. And it had nothing to do with getting sober. But I was so defeated, and I was so disappointed in myself and not being there for my family and emotionally sober that when I walked through the door with those eggs and that milk, I was just like, this is a time for me to do this over. Like, it had nothing to do with, I was just, like, so disappointed in myself and what I was not being there for my family. And it felt. Like, I was walking through the door of the treatment center again. And I felt so inspired by that that I saw that people were, like, making these videos, hating on Jelly Roll. Oh, he's not sober. Oh, he's a sellout. Oh, he's Hollywood this and he's that. And then as a person who is nine years sober, hearing that song, which had nothing to do with, like, a relapse, but just me being so down in my recovery, feeling like I was so worthless. I felt so seen and I felt so heard going through there. So after I made up with my kids and my girl and gave them a big hug. And apologized, broke down, started crying, kind of like I am now, I made a, I made a reel about how, you know, this guy's doing amazing things, like, you know, he's doing beautiful stuff for recovery. We need to support all paths to recovery, all this stuff. And I thought nothing of it. I went about my day and I put my phone down and I was really trying to be there for my kids. And what ended up happening is that Jelly Roll saw that post and on the day his album dropped and he said to me. I'm crying right now. In a comment on TikTok, I feel seen and I feel heard. Wow. And the full circle moment thing about that, man, is I was at a point where I was breaking down and I was, I was feeling like I was worthless. And so this person who's inspired me countless times doesn't know me, doesn't know my story. He's got his own demons, his own path to recovery, whatever. But the point is, regardless of where you are, whether you're like, you know, a dad working like, you know, a middle class. Job driving to get milk for his kids or you're a country star who's selling out arenas. When we tell the truth and we leave a door open for self-improvement and emotional vulnerability, we can be seen and we can be heard. So every single time that I feel like I'm I'm not grateful, I'm alone, I'm down on myself and I feel like my recovery is trash and I feel like I'm undeserving of where I am. I get that imposter syndrome. It's not about the cloud of that post or anything. It was just. It's a moment where I was at my lowest and I put on a message separate from a song, a message of recovery and hope and new beginnings. And I realized that new beginning could happen for me. And then seeing someone who I think, oh, he's selling out arenas, millions of records like American Idol judge and all that. But it's clear he was going through some stuff on the day his album released. So that lets me know it doesn't matter if you're a millionaire, you're one of the most beloved, famous people in the world, or you're just a dad getting milk and eggs. We are all in this. And no matter how much. Money, clout, fame you have, you are one moment away from an emotional breakdown, but you're also one moment away from gratitude and self-improvement. So whenever I get down, it's like, what's the what's the jelly roll moment today? What's the moment where instead of being salty that I got to go balance my work and my family and my recovery, I can be like, this is a gift. This is a gift. Having the balance. Look in my son in the eye. I'm being present. Then like going on email and work, uploading a reel like. All this stuff. This is a gift that I get to do this, man. This isn't it might be exhausting. It might be. It might be ridiculously taxing, but it's good work. It's good. Tired. It's good pain. And that's something that if I never got sober, I never would have experienced the revelation that the very same painful, vulnerable, cringing, incredibly agonizing moments of transparency are what's going to not just keep us sober, but keep us grateful. And I got, I got to plug in this charger. But I'm just going to say, yeah, but yeah, that, that, that was a moment for me where I was just like, what are you doing, man? Like, where's the gratitude? What is it?
Speaker 1Yeah. I love that. And, and that, that shift from, I have to do this too. I get to do this today. Right. It's, it's so subtle, but it's so it's sometimes it could be powerful too. Right. Yeah. That's amazing, man. I want to talk a little bit about, I want to talk about music, but first I want to talk about like. How did you end up getting into social media and, and spreading the word of recovery? I think it's so important because there's a lot of, there's a lot of crap and garbage on social media and dangerous messages and misinformation, but there's also a lot of hope, man. There's a lot of hope. There's a lot of people doing really important things, spreading the message. And, um, like I also, like, like you said, is you never know when you're going to get seen by the right person or the person that needs to hear you or heard by the person that needs to hear you. Um, How did you transition from, you know, into social media and posting reels and, and helping others that way?
Speaker 2So when I was two years sober, I was working towards my goal of becoming a drug counselor and I made music for years in active addiction, um, mostly glamorizing addiction. I work with a lot of figures that I'm very privileged to have worked with in active addiction, like project Pat, um, Mac Miller may rest in peace. Uh, before he blew up, I did a track with him and you know, when he died in 2018. You know, that really spurred me to get back to writing, but I was just doing it for me. I wasn't really uploading. I was uploading on SoundCloud, but I wasn't even really posting on my Facebook because I didn't want, I didn't want people to see it was literally just for me. Um, and I was working in the service industry, paying my way through college to be a drug counselor. And I had this moment at the treatment center that saved my life. And I want to make it clear where I was running these peer recovery groups there, but I wasn't a clinician. And at the end of one of the groups where like, I would bring speakers into these clinical settings, this kid who had been rolling his eyes the whole time came up to me and he like confronted me. He's like, Hey man, like, you know, I don't want to be sober because it seems like all you guys talk about is recovery, blah, blah, blah. And he reminded me of myself like three years before I was actually ready to get sober and I was having a hard day. So I just kicked it on. I was like, listen, man. Um, I know you like just really leveling with him. Cause he was like doing perks and like Adderall, like in the, like low key and like a way that I had been like right at the very beginning when, and I, and I, and I hit him with truth and I didn't sugarcoat it. I cursed. I use the names of actual substances, not the clinical names. I use addict instead of substance use disorder. But at the end of it, he's like, dude, like, I don't know if this is okay, but like, I want to, can I get your number? Like, I actually want to talk to you about this, man. Like, like, can we get, can we get lunch or something? Like once I'm done with this, like, I know, like, I'm like, yeah, bro. Like, here you go. Like, like, let's do it. And I did end up like going with him to a recovery group and like all that stuff down the line. But the counselor accosted me and she's like, you can't do that. And I was like, oh, no, I can't get lunch. But like, you know, she's like, no, not that you can't use the word addict. You can't use street names of drugs. You can't be that confrontational. Like that's unprofessional. And I wanted to scream at them. Like, you know, this kid was rolling his eyes through the air. The institutional language and all this stuff. Right. You know, I was talking to a man to man, like addict to addict. Like, and like, this is what's making him want to do this. But I didn't say that. I was like, OK. And I bit my tongue and I kept working there for three months. But I was just so disillusioned about it because I was like, I can't be me. I can't I can't say what I want to say. And that inspired me more to get into my music. And then three months later, I was up in Vermont because my dad built a house up here, a little cabin in the 70s. And he gave it to me after I got sober. I was working on fixing it up. With the eventual aim of moving up here to be a drug counselor. But then I didn't even know if I wanted to do that, you know, I was still in school. Long story short, a friend of a friend came up to my house in Vermont with an old piano, heard one of the first piano rap tracks I've been putting together about recovery. He's like, dude, I know this guy who's just built a studio here in Vermont. You should really meet him. So I meet with the guy who owns the studio. I play him the song. And it turns out he's not just a producer. He's also a doctor, Broadway producer and doctor who has been sitting in one this back in twenty eighteen community forums at the beginning of the fentanyl crisis about community action that can be taken to raise awareness about fighting the epidemic. But since he wasn't an addict, he didn't know how to reach people do that way. But he wanted to give back philanthropically, like help people. So he met me, heard my music, heard my story. And he asked me a question that changed everything. He said, do you think you can reach more people by speaking honestly and through your music or through an institutional setting? And I was already thinking that I couldn't do that. And I was like, through music. And he's like, why don't you come back up here? I want to buy the rights to one of your songs. Like, we'll do a one-off thing. And if it works, like, and I was just stoked because like he paid me to perform. It was my dream to be a professional musician. And we started doing these songs together. He was buying the rights to the songs. And I was stoked on that. But four songs in, I was like, dude, like, this is a good partnership. Like, we got to split this 50-50 here on out if you want to keep working with me. And I was expecting to be like, ah, nah, like whatever. But what he said was, no, we don't just need to do that. You need to move up here full time. I'm going to get an arts residency going for you. And we're going to do this album. We're going to do this work. And so I packed all my stuff. I moved to Vermont. Everybody in my recovery group told me I was crazy. They said I was giving everything up. But I knew, I prayed about it. And I knew it was right. So I moved up here. We did the album, Clean, the piano rap album. But then the pandemic happened. And all the tour stuff he was setting up fell through. And I started working at the magazines he also owned as a journalist, another opportunity of recovery. Because at that time, like, live shows were shut down. And we were still working on music. But it was a hiatus. And then I met the woman who's now the fiancée and the mother of my kids. I settled down. And I got to another point where I was, like, the same way in recovery. I don't care if I never do music again. I got a son. I got a job. Like, I got a life. But then one night, my son was five months old. And my girl couldn't sleep while she was nursing him and, like, all this stuff. And she's scrolling through reels on her phone. And at this point, I've done, like, community programs before and after the pandemic over Zoom. Like, prevention summits. I've started writing a column. I've started writing a column about recovery. I've started doing an FM radio show about recovery. But I don't know anything about social media. I've seen a couple reels come across my feed. But they're not recovery related. And then I'm, like, and she's got all these trending audio things going through her phone. And me, the millennial, she's nine years younger than me. She's 25 now. And I'm 33, about to be 34. And I'm, like, what's that? She's, like, oh, it's reels. And I was, like, what are those? And she shows me these reels of, like, all these moms taking care of their kids and all these fitness influencers because she likes to run and all these things. And I'm, like, oh, that's cool. She's, like, yeah, you should make these about recovery. And I'm, like, oh, I can't do that. Nobody's going to want to hear that. And the crazy thing is the algorithm listens to what you say on your phone. And over the next couple weeks, I started seeing reels from Jimmy McGill, Brad from Sober Motivation, Rachel Elizabeth, Quinn LaPierre, the Cali Sober creator. And it just magically shows up. And I'm, like, wait, people are doing this? And I was six and a half years sober. And I was, like, wait, I can really do this. So I bought a phone. And I got permission from my team. And I just started recording. And at first, I was, like, trying to make it like other people. And I was, like, trying to be exactly the same. And, like, a couple things were catching. Some things weren't. And then I realized, like, dude, you shouldn't make yourself work for this. You should make this work for you. If it's not going to naturally work, it's not going to work. So instead of trying to stage it, make it all, like, professional, like, whatever, studio, like, high quality, whatever, I just started grabbing my phone, taking my dog on walks around my block, and sharing moments in my recovery where I was tested and what helped me get through it. And the only rules I applied to it were, is it true? Would it have helped me in early recovery? Or would it have helped me in active addiction? And when I gave up on trying to make it cool, when I gave up on trying to make it streamlined, when I just... Did one take, threw a filter on it, threw some captions on it, and just hit post, that's when it actually got some momentum. And I attribute that to the fact that, you know, clout and influence and money and, you know, status is an addiction just as much as a substance ever was. It takes it back to, like, when I said it wasn't just about the substance numbing me. It was that it became my identity. And so when I finally was like, I don't care about followers, I don't care about none of this, let's just put the message out and let's do it. That's when it started connecting me with people. And I, more than any numbers, whatever, I became part of this community that you're part of as well, that so many great people are part of, where hopefully, whether it reaches a million people or a hundred people, we're just sharing what we know and doing our best to be there for people in the way that they were there for us on the other side off of the phone, but using social media and the fact we could be open to people. We could be open to my recovery through this to put it out there.
Speaker 1Oh, man. Well, I needed to hear that. Thank you. It's so true. Like, you know, I'm struggling recently with chasing the followers, chasing the likes, chasing the clout. And I can easily tell myself that I'm doing it for the right reason. And, you know, I got into this ultimately, and I truly do know this and believe this, the podcast, but also social media to stay sober myself, right? Like that was that was goal number one. I need to surround myself. Because if I'm not sober, I can't help anybody. I can't do anything. I can't be a husband. I can't be a son. I can't be a brother. I can't do any of these things if I'm not sober. So that was that was my rule number one. And I love that you said that you you kind of you stick with three rules, right? Is it true? Yeah, 100%. That's important. Like, I can't be I can't be fabricating some of my stories or glorifying anything or, you know, just straight up lying because I lied every day, every second of every day. When I was in active addiction, and I can still lie today, I still struggle with that, right? So, you know, am I being authentic today? That's because that's what's gonna that's what's gonna help that one person that that we're thinking about, you know, because to your point, when I came in, somebody was authentic to me, somebody was kind to me. And that's what kept me around kept me calling that person and asking for help, because I wanted what they had. And they always said to me, I always say this, it's like, son, if you want what I have, you know, here's what I did. You can do it or not do it. It's up to you. There's suggestions. Right. And ultimately, I'm grateful that I followed those suggestions today. So yeah, I needed to hear that.
Speaker 2I need to hear it too. I, I can get so caught up because it's like a rush when you see there's been so many podcasts, but it's a dopamine hit. You know what I mean? And, and I'm a creator, it's inherent in the in the phrase, there's a J Cole line from, you know, fire squad off 2014. Forest Hills drive. At the end of the day, every poet just wants to be loved. And so I'm not going to fake, like, I don't want people to like what I'm doing. I was like, I don't care. Of course I care. I'm, I'm creating something, whether it's a talk reel or a song, of course I like it, but that can't, that reality, that admission that yes, I do like views or positive feedback. Yeah. That can't be the aim that that's the best. I acknowledge that that motivation is there. It's not going to magically disappear. But can we extricate ourselves from that and make stuff that's not driven by that?
Speaker 1Yeah. The driving force. That's what I was going to say. Yeah. Yeah. It can't be the North star, right? It can't be the driving force. The, because yeah, I mean, outcomes, I'm very focused on outcomes when I'm, when I'm not in the best place or, and I'm not, you know, I, I would say spiritually on the beam or, or working a program of recovery. I'm focusing on outcomes and I have expectations and you, you mentioned it before, but expectations. Expectations just lead to resentments, right? Because again, you're not living according to Anthony script. And if it was done this way, if everyone just listened to me, life would be better. Right. And, and that's led me to so many dark paths before, um, what, what's, what's one of your favorite lines that you, you rap about or, cause there's so many good ones, man. And I was trying to look up your lyrics before to find them, but you know, they're not anywhere. So, um, I would just figured I would ask you instead, because there was a lot that hit me where I was like, damn, like that was really well. Well said, but if you had to think of, you know, a line that you're really either proud of or, or even a song that you're proud of or something that you really, um, you know, helped you, what would that be?
Speaker 2I think the three verses that I think music is recreation when it's good. So I try not to make it a meritocracy and I'm not going to big up myself by saying, Oh, like this is bars. Like it is what it is. I mean, some of my favorite rappers don't have any bars. They just have charisma and they got good delivery. Some are the opposite. They don't have any flow, but like their, their words hit. And sometimes they're not even deep. They're just funny or they're, there's no grading system. Lists are fun. Like whatever. I just, I just need to remind myself of that because what I like isn't necessarily what other people relate to. I've been surprised. Like people say things. I'm like, Oh, that's corny. I don't like that bar. But then they're like that. I'm damn near want to get that tattooed on me. People are like, Whoa, that's awesome. But like, it just, it's very particular. I would say that the three songs that I, that mean the most to me are scars off of clean, um, price of addiction. My song with Matt Keegan means a lot to me and not stopping off of my first EP after clean. It means a lot to me. Um, the reason those three songs mean the most to me is scars is something. I actually wrote that verse when I was three months sober and I never intended it to be a rap because it was about when someone saw one of my track mark scars at work and asked about it and I had to be honest with them and I decided to be honest when I was working as a busboy. Christ of Addiction, I wrote that verse at 3 a.m. after putting my baby back to sleep when I couldn't sleep when Matt had sent me the original like raw version of the beat and I was trying to make it all these things but I was just like what would you want someone to say if they were giving you tough love about like what would await if you if you went back and I'm not gonna say I freestyled it but I wrote it in 15 minutes. I wasn't sure Matt was gonna like it. I just sent it to him and it is what it is on the song and not stopping means a lot to me because I was at a place where I was recording a lot of verses for social media. It wasn't clear whether my team was gonna let me make them into songs. I was starting to get a lot of hate for recovery being the omnipresent thing in my music and you know the person who inspired me the most I mean of course you know Eminem, Royce Da 5'9", Jelly Roll, yeah but Kalichi more than anybody is my number one inspiration as a artist in recovery and that was the song that connected me with him. Um that was the verse where when I dropped the raw version he uh he reached out to me and um it was kind of a beautiful thing because I didn't plan it. All three of those verses were written through. I didn't think about them. I just penned them almost freestyle style and they've ended up being kind of the most significant things that have opened my life up but more than that just reminded me that it's all about being present when you write something rather than having a concerted aim and kind of in the same way as in recovery if I can get out of my own way cool stuff can happen. Um kind of the best laid plans don't always amount to something and so more than like the bars because there's some things where like my favorite line of anything that I've ever done personally just because I like hip-hop and it's so multi-layered um is on not stopping it's because when the m boxes and h turned to pine boxes too many friends pass like Nash and John Stockton like that's the one like when it came out I was just like okay that's that's something that like if I was in active addiction I would have been like okay that's that's hip-hop so I'm I'm happy with that and a lot of people have you know gassed me about that or whatever they're like oh that's I never heard like a recovery line like that and I'm like well we've got to do this we've all lived it so whether it rhymes or not or it puts metaphors together in like a clever way or whatever sure but the challenge I do with that is how can I encapsulate losing friends in the evolution of the opioid epidemic from pills of fentanyl and like in one line um and and that's to me is whether it's talk content or music it's like yeah you can have bars you can have good delivery you can look in the camera the right right way have a good angle have a good mix like sure but is it true and is it gonna help people and we won't know that until to help people until it goes out but usually if it helps us by saying it or rapping or singing it then there's a better chance that it's gonna help somebody and that and that's how I try to run my
Speaker 1game yeah I love it man well you've helped me today honestly it's uh it's been a great conversation so far and I appreciate likewise bro thank you for coming on um I want to end I want to end with this um if you could say something to a struggling artist creator um you know whether they're getting started or they don't know if they want to do this full-time yet or or maybe they're struggling with drugs and alcohol as well what would you say to that person well I actually have
Speaker 2a song I'm working on and what's funny is I was gonna click on my notes to like try to search it and find it and and I was like I'm gonna click on my notes to like try to search it and find it and and this is provenance it's literally right there I didn't I didn't expect I was just working on it like yesterday and I don't know if this song is ever going to come out my team probably won't let me do it because they want me to do more melodic stuff moving forward after this next recovery ep but this is what I'd say to them if you have a story and a potent truth you don't need a budget or the dopest booth you just need to trust that what you're going through is something other people understand that's truly overdue for sharing even when the algorithms look over you because even if some people don't acknowledge while they're scrolling through even if you have to start from scratch and start over a few more iterations modern attention spans have limitations don't let your zone of creation fold to intimidation you don't need a filming crew and you don't need a selfie stand to actualize your vision you just need to develop a plan never let your insecurity limit creative growth if you have knowledge channel it through your content and make it known and if you're only in it for the fame or the clout take it back to the basics and then reframe what you're about and ask yourself when the money and the hype disappears will your content inspire people to fight through their fears oh wow thank you I love it was interesting that that was like right there I know that encapsulated the whole episode I hope so I mean oh man I hope that comes out what I would say separate from that indulgent millennial recovery boy versus if you have a crappy you know prepaid gas station android phone with low pixels and you have a crappy looking apartment yeah it might not look like a Rachel Elizabeth or sober motivation video shout out to them it might not look like a Brandon Novak video shout out to him but it's gonna look like the phone's an apartment it might not look like a Brandon Novak video shout out to him but it's gonna look like the phone's an apartment who are actually in early recovery going through the struggle and even if the algorithm doesn't prioritize you you it's not just about honesty and what you say you don't need to save up for like a dope iphone or like galaxy to like have good content you don't have to have perfectly color synced stuff you can use stock facebook youtube shorts instagram tiktok fonts not even correct the captions not even place them not even have to correct the captions not even have to perfect bordering or like camera placement if what you're saying is true and it comes from the heart even if you don't have anything to say and you're just like 353 days sober today like i got a job today like you know one of the most powerful videos i've seen that went mega viral and it made me so happy to see it is a girl wasn't even saying anything and a girl wasn't even talking about being strong in recovery she had her phone on and she was crying with a trending audio of honest dave i'd rather overdose and she said i'm driving around in my car crying trying to get through the cravings so that i can be there for my kids and not go back and it got tens of millions of views and it didn't come from it being a pretty camera it was a horrible camera horrible angle horrible content sync but it was real and god bless her for doing that man because that's the type of content the world needs it's polished it's not professional it's real it's resonant and it's saving people's lives pick up the camera don't let anybody else hating don't let your own voice hating if you have something to share pick up the phone hit post and let the chips fall you have no idea how many people want
Speaker 1to hear you none i guarantee it yeah well said yeah um one of my favorite um people you know i mean he's an author too but producer rick rubin he has a amazing book called the creative way or creative act or something and he always goes back to you know art creation art it's it's not for the audience it's for the the artist right and how it's going to be received is how it's going to be received right it's not up to me i can't control that but if it makes me happy and i'm happy with it then it's art and it's my art you know and it's a beautiful thing so um i appreciate you benjamin you're uh i i'm happy to have met you and uh i look forward to the many more tracks that you're going to put out in reels and keep doing what you're doing
Speaker 2likewise man god bless you god bless your platform and um one day in one pot at a time we can do this
Speaker 3thanks for listening please help us grow the channel and like share and subscribe for more content the discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for informational and motivational purposes only this content is not a substitute for professional medical advice addiction treatment or therapy if you or someone you know is struggling with addiction please consult a licensed physician addiction specialist or mental health professional you are no longer alone Thanks for watching!
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