From exile to rebuilding: María Corina Machado's plan for a new Venezuela

You need the support of the United States and a President Trump. So badly, you went to the White House and handed him your Nobel Peace Prize. But he has questioned your ability to lead, and he has openly supported your rivals. President Trump is the only head of state that has reached the lives of some of his citizens for the freedom of Venezuela. We are the government elect, actually, not the opposition. We want an election. This is Newsmakers and PR's biggest interviews. I'm Steve Inskip. We questioned some of the most influential people of our time. Make sure to follow and subscribe to this show wherever you listen or watch so you get the latest episode as soon as it's available. Today, and PR's Mary Louise Kelly is your host. Maria Carina Machado was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize last year for her work trying to promote democracy in her country in Venezuela. Many Venezuelans believed that as opposition leader, she would eventually become their next president after authoritarian ruler Nicholas Maduro was ousted. But here we are, and Maduro has been sitting in a U.S. prison since January and Machado is still on the outside looking in. I have interviewed you a few times now. The first time you were in Venezuela, you were in hiding in an undisclosed location because of security concerns. The second time we were on Zoom, so I want to say it's very nice to meet you and to get to do an interview in person. Thank you for coming. Thank you, Mary Louise. It's my pleasure. Let's start with your plans. You have said you would like to go back to Venezuela by the end of this year. What conditions need to be in place, what needs to happen for that to be possible? Well, since the day I was able to escape my country, I said that I wanted to go back as soon as possible, but certainly I had some. You left in December to go get your Nobel Peace Prize, and then everything changed in your country. Exactly. At the same time, I knew I had some objectives to accomplish. One of them is precisely being banned from leaving Venezuela for over 12 years. Imagine so many people I have never met in person. I had a very long list of global leaders and Venezuelans living abroad that I wanted to meet, to talk, to organize, to align views and actions, and that's what I've been doing in the last months. I think that most of these goals have been achieved already, and I'm planning to go back. Certainly, this is something that has been talked with and coordinated with the U.S. government for. End of the year, that is still. Oh, I think it's going to be much sooner than that. Like when? Like sooner. Days, weeks? No, I prefer not to say that yet because, of course, there are elements of logistic, of security that I have to address. So, to leap back to my question, I understand you don't want to get into specifics of your security arrangements, but what conditions need to be in place for you to be able to set foot in Venezuela? Well, I'm sure you are aware that I've been accused of everything from terrorism to martyr, just because we were able to organize a society and to defeat the regime by a landslide. That's really what started at this brutal wave of repression against the Venezuelan people me included. So, basically, I had threats on my life, on my family, on my friends, on my colleagues. Most of them had to flee in order to save their lives, so what we expect is that the regime understands that things have changed dramatically and, certainly, the role the U.S. government is playing right now represents an element of pressure for the regime not to act against many of the political actors and social actors that are starting to go back to Venezuela. So, you need pressure from the U.S. and others on the current? The people are currently ruling Venezuela to make sure that you will be safe to go. Absolutely. Do you also worry that the longer you are outside, the less relevant you may become inside Venezuela? I don't. I think that people, people used to tell me that when I got into hiding, that would happen. That you would disappear from view and from people's minds. Exactly. And it was quite a challenge, certainly in a personal human way, not being able to touch or hog or see someone personally doing a year and a half. But at the same time, how do I keep working? How do we turn this challenging, very extreme conditions, risky conditions into a possibility to grow, to grow our organization, to grow our communication? And it's what we build was incredible. We build underground communication platforms to have hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans connected in a safe way that the regime could not interfere or detect. And now, being able to be abroad and reach too many Venezuelans outside, I have maintained the communication with the Venezuelan people and in the country, I think the expectations are growing not only about our return to Venezuela, but the path ahead, after all, so much we have accomplished in terms of defeating a regime that is so harmful to freedom and the region. You said a moment ago, you need the U.S. to put pressure to make sure that you are safe, that conditions are safe for you to return. I know you met recently with Secretary of State Marco Rubio. What did he say in terms of your ability to go home? Well, first and foremost, I've said this several times, but I want to insist. We are very grateful to President Trump and to the U.S. government for the decisions that have been taken, regarding taking Nicolas Valudo to face justice, for all the criminal activities that he did and so many lives destroyed. It is a matter of national security for the U.S., but it's also an existential struggle for the Venezuelan people, and I would say for the region. So, Secretary Rubio is saying, hold off till something is in place or the system has been very clear in terms of a path forward that has three stages. He said publicly that the first one has already been accomplished. The third one, which is a transition to democracy, it's not necessarily sequential to the second one. We're starting to move ahead in these elements of political freedom that are absolutely required to have economic freedom as well. And expectations, Marie-Louise, are growing in a country that I have to say is living under dire economic circumstances. I mean, inflation in Venezuela is over 600 percent annually. It's larger. The highest in the world, a teacher earns $1 a day. Our children only go twice a week to publish schools. So, this is a situation that is getting worse and worse as we speak, and we need to channel all these tensions and society in a civic organized manner, and that's my main goal into returning to Venezuela. Right. Try to pin you down one more time on what guidance you're getting from the Trump administration on the timing. Well, we have been very clear in terms of let's find the right moment so that we have the security issues addressed, and at the same time, we consider the growing expectations and demand of the Venezuelan people, and the need that I feel from them and demand from them that I go back to our country. What's the first thing you'll do when you land? Oh, wow. I mean, you're the opposition leader, where you read people into the streets in protest. Actually, I would think, and the first thing is, you know, smelling my country, touching our people, kissing the ground, no, we are the government-elect, actually, not the opposition. We want an election, but having done that, and in order to facilitate and contribute to the path that President Trump, Secretary Rubio, have stated, we have accepted that we should go into a new election to redgenly demize what we already did. Imagine with the toughest extreme unjust conditions we had in 2024, in which a third of the population of Venezuela, who had been forced to leave, were not allowed to vote. And we did win and we proved it with almost 70 percent of a vote. Imagine what's going to happen with free and fair elections. So there's a lot that we need to do in terms of what we're calling the national agreement for transition and democracy, which is sharing all these basic principles and ideas that represent the new Venezuela that is being born and it's emerging. So basically what I'm doing is reaching out and what I will do once I'm there is reaching out to all sectors, including those people that until recently were close to the regime or still scared, what a transition will mean to them. What about just practically speaking? Do you have a checklist of what needs to get done? I'm thinking about things as basic but as essential as voting machines, voting roles, electoral commission. Absolutely we do. And regarding the technical part of the election, this is very hard for me to say, but we've turned in experts in how elections can be perverted and how fraud can really be expanded to unthinkable dimensions within a country. So but we also turn ourselves into experts and how to overcome those conditions. So now we know precisely what ought to be done. And we want to turn Venezuela into a blueprint of elections that are trusted by everyone. Are you able to do any of that now with you still outside? Do you have people on the ground who are starting to put those things in motion? Yes, and not only in the ground, but the ones around the world. Imagine having a third of your population in all these countries in every single continent. And people are organizing so that, as I said, from a technical perspective, we believe that we could have these right elections really transparent done in 40 weeks. That's roughly nine months. Once you start, you know, to make the political decisions to go forward. But that means that a lot of a lot of things have to be done. Not only regarding the integrity of civil rights. So we're talking really 2027. Do you think is the timeline? Well, if we start now, yes, or even the end of the year, but the political decision has to be made because there are other issues, not only the technical part of it, but certainly we need to start advancing in things that take time, such as identifying where our people, the ones that have left are located. Most of them we don't know where they are. So that's part of the job that we're in the work we're doing right now with our system. Is your sense that the people currently running Venezuela want free and fair elections? Of course not. Of course not. They know they would lose with less than 15 or 10 percent of the votes. They didn't want to have to release the political prisoners and they have started to do that. They don't want anybody to speak out and we're starting to see back journalists, colleagues of yours for the first time telling the truth in years. They don't want people to go and demonstrate in the streets peacefully. And now we're seeing people starting going to churches than to universities. Now we see union leaders, workers, mothers coming out and speaking about certainly they need to have food and medicine and jobs, but also talking about human dignity, freedom and bringing our kids back home. So this is something unique, what's happening in Venezuela right now. And look, this was like a huge dam that was filling with pain, with humiliation. And suddenly a hole was open on January 3rd and it started flowing and this is unstoppable. We won't give up. We will never give up. Venezuela will be free. Interim president Delce Rodriguez might have something to say about that and I do want to ask do you worry? Do you see any sign that she is looking to cement her hold on power? She just hired a lobbyist here in Washington. Do you see any sign that she may be positioning herself to try to stay put, to run and be elected in her own right as the leader? Well, that's not the worst scenario. The worst scenario is that they pretend to stay by force and outweigh all the effort that has been done by the US government, President Trump and international democratic community. You would accept that election result in a free and fair election. Who Delce Rodriguez? Well, as I said before, I mean, that's not their nature. Certainly the only way they have done the things that have done lately and started to open the economy and the political rights is because they've been forced to. I mean, this is the same tyranny that had been in place for 27 years that has tortured, persecuted, killed, silence as you have in your book. I mean, there are testimonies that are hard breaking of what these people have done to stay in power. And they're willing to do anything unless they are stopped. And frankly what we're saying right now is that a new election is the possibility for many of these individuals that have done so much harm to find a way out that is peaceful, peaceful, and order and give them a chance to to reconciliation with the country. What does that look like? I mean, not to venture too far into the unknown. But given what you just said, should there be repercussions, what should they be for the current leaders, including the current interim president? Well, one thing that we have said repeatedly and you have to go back and imagine, and you have the testimonies there, Rosadozco, will be deported. The children were killed. They were 17 years old and 19 the other because they were in the streets simply with a flag of your country claiming for freedom. And they were shot at and killed by the orders of the regime. So these people are demanding justice and you have to understand what it feels to see that this process could be stopped. So what I'm saying is look, this is not revenge. Our approach is we want justice and we want the truth to be known so that never again these atrocities are repeated in Venezuela. But yes, we need to give incentives and we need to give guarantees to those that still hold in power to understand that is also in their own behalf that they need to facilitate this transition. And this is an opportunity that we cannot let go because the impact not only for Venezuela, imagine we have nine millions for Venezuela, they're desperate to go back, but they won't go back unless there's a certain tea that there will be justice and freedom and respect for their rights in Venezuela again. President Trump, as you will no doubt have seen, says Delce Rodriguez is doing a great job that the oil is beginning to flow and he called her president of Venezuela. I'm sure it didn't escape your notice. He left out acting or interim, just president. Well, he said he's doing a terrific job following his instructions. And I think some of those instructions have been followed completely and I refer back again to the release of more than half of the political prisoners, but they are not all released yet. And the torture centers are still in place. So these are the kinds of things that we need to we believe should be put more and more pressure. There are other things in the economic side that are starting to change, some of them very positive. But as you heard the voices of Venezuelan people, there's a lot more to do. And one of them is to understand that this is a nation that has gone through so long ordeal to to finally see the possibility to live, not only with freedom, but also, as I said before, with our children back home. So this is a moment to move ahead, and that's why we believe that, you know, setting an electoral calendar and having a date is such an important demand of our people. Just to say out loud, every time I interview you, I am struck by what a tricky position you are in, what a fine line you are walking. You need it so badly you went to the White House and handed him your Nobel Peace Prize. Well, I will go back to something I mentioned to you. I mean, President Trump is the only head of state in the world that has risked the lives of some of his citizens for the freedom of Venezuela. And this is something I will always recognize and our society is grateful for. We realize that it's a very delicate and complex moment in the world. We have you have different fronts open, and some people are concerned that moving ahead into Venezuela might bring unrest to the region, and talking about elections could bring unrest. I believe it's quite the opposite. I think that if something will bring stability and order is precisely, you know, a democratic transition. And Delce Rodriguez is, she is chaos herself. She is the past. She represents the past and at the end, and I repeat this, I cannot think in another society that is as united, as committed, and as organized as a Venezuelan society to move into democracy and freedom. Speaking of things the U.S. has done, should the U.S. keep blowing up alleged drug boats in the Caribbean and Pacific? I think that blocking the flow of drug cash to the regime and to other illegal activities is crucial because any criminal system, criminal system is supported by the inflows of those activities. In the case of Venezuela, we are talking about unimaginable quantities of resources that were used for repression and also to destabilize the whole region. So we are far from dismantling the drug enterprise and the criminal structures that operate in Venezuela. And I believe that in order to support the public districts, if they are just about, I think that. And that the message that this will not be tolerated is necessary. Just to put a number on it, since those strikes on boats began last September, this is according to the Washington Office on Latin America, non-profit human rights advocacy group, 192 people killed or presumed at 54 separate attacks by U.S. forces. As I said, and I have said it before, I believe that these deaths and the damage the drug operation has brought to thousands and thousands of people that have died is Maduro's responsibility and then the tyranny responsibility. We warn for decades what was being built into our country, you know, regions that were taken over by the drug cartels and other criminal networks and thousands of lives destroyed. And it's a criminal structure, such as this, that has allied itself with the enemies of the Western democratic nations, Russia, Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas that had been freely operating in Venezuela had to be addressed and dismantled with credible threat. And that's why we're moving ahead now into democracy. Quick question on Cuba. President Trump says it's in bad shape and quote, "We'll be doing something with Cuba very soon." It's Cuba next. I hope that Cuban people will be free soon. As I have told all my Cuban friends, Nicaragua, one friend, just, I just saw her here today, it is the same cost. I will not stop until Cuba and Nicaragua are also free. And the tragedy that's suffering the Cuban population, as we speak, it's something devastating. I mean, morally unacceptable. And it's time to send a clear message to the Cuban regime that that days of indifference are over. I will close, if I may, with a more personal question, because you are a political leader. You're also a mom. You have three kids, all adults now. In your book, The Freedom Manifesto, you write that you feel guilty for what you have brought upon your family, and that it is perhaps the most difficult burden you carry. Why? Well, I have thought we've guilt all my life. I don't know if that has happened to you. You and me both. I think women in our generation, because, you know, we want it all. We want to serve our nation. We want to be good neighbors. We want to develop our careers. We want to be good sisters and daughters and friends and moms. And wives and it's hard to do it all the time. Well, and I, most of us, have not had the experience you had of sending our children to live outside our country so that they would be safe. That was the hardest moment in my life. One day, I was standing in front of the National Assembly, and I started the announcement, precisely, corruption and drug trafficking, and I stopped talking. I was frozen, and I only thought my daughter and my daughter, she's rubbing her car from the university to our home. So I sat down, I went home, and I told her, you're going, you're leaving. And she said, oh, no, Mom, I won't leave you alone. And I said, yes, you are. Yes, you are. You have to go. And it was the hardest day in my life, because I had to choose. And I decided that in order to be a good mother and protect my children, but also to serve my country, I had to put my children in a safe place. And I'm very grateful because of you as was that place where they could study. And I wasn't able to be under graduation days. I was through a screen, the only proud mom who wasn't present, and that's why I felt guilty. But at the same time, I've done it for them. For millions of children, I think, and love us mine as well. And because I know that they will be able to go back to a proud nation that will be an example of peace, freedom, justice and opportunities for all in the future, and will never, ever, again, suffer under a tyranny. You've been able to reunite with them these last few months. I imagine that's been a silver lining of this time outside of Venezuela. You've also discovered the joys of Ubers. You heard that. Well, you have no idea what I did today. I got into a fully autonomous driving car for the first time in my life. So it's like, I've come a long way. But it's really an amazing discovery because I'm all the time thinking, how can I bring all this back technology to Venezuela, who is like centuries back. So, you know, it's a great challenge because I look at it from a positive way. I mean, it's the first nation that we're going to build from scratch in the age of artificial intelligence. So we are going to leapfrog in education, in health, in the judicial system, in energy, communications, in finance, I mean, it's going to be huge. And while we need all these visionaries to be part of it. Maria Carina Machado, Venezuelan political leader, author of the new book, The Freedom Manifesto, and mom, proud mom. Thank you very much. Very proud. Thank you. You know, the news does not keep a schedule, and neither do we. New episodes of Newsmakers publish as soon as they are available any day of the week. So make sure to follow and subscribe to this show wherever you listen. in her watch. So you get the latest episode right away. 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