In a world of career uncertainty, there is one variable you have total control over, yourself. Welcome to Forever Employable Stories, where expert digital transformation consultant and successful entrepreneur Jeff Gautel will share conversations with unique and inspiring individuals who have taken charge of their professional lives, leverage their expertise, filter audience and future-proofed their careers, so you can learn how to do the same. Here's your host, Jeff Gautel. What struck me the most from the time I spent interviewing Michael Bungay-Stanier, author of the best-selling book The Coaching Habit, was how he has repeatedly reinvented himself throughout his career. Whether it was deliberate choices he made to push himself into new and unfamiliar directions, or random black swan events like 9/11 that changed the trajectory of his career, Michael took each direction with enthusiasm. It wasn't always perfect. It didn't always work out like he'd hoped, but he pushed through, persevered, learned new skills, and applied them on his next assignment. This aptitude and welcoming attitude to learn continuously, to explore willingly and to unleashes curiosity has taken Michael all over the world, helped him build his own company and more recently produced a series of well-respected books that help others grow their own work and businesses. On top of all of his success, he continues to be one of the more generous authors and thought leaders today. I can personally vouch for using many of the tactics Michael has kindly shared publicly around book marketing and growing a coaching and consulting business. There's so much to learn from Michael, we fit as much as we could in our 30-minute discussion. Take a listen. If folks, I'm super thrilled to be doing another one of the forever-employable stories. This time we have an amazing and incredible guest. I can't wait to dive into it because a lot of the stuff that we're going to talk about with our guest today is stuff that I've learned from him and then I've put into action to help me continue to build my forever-employable platform. So I'm super, super excited to have Michael Bungay-Stanier with me here today. He's best known as the author of the coaching habit and you can find all his works over at mbs.orgs at his website. So Michael, thanks so much for joining me with this forever-employable story. That is awesome. I'm happy to be here. I think of myself as forever-employable. So I guess that's the same, different side of the same coin. So I'm glad to be here. It's interesting you say that because I hear that a lot, especially from entrepreneurial folks. Now when I say entrepreneurial folks, I don't mean like not necessarily having started a company, but folks who kind of have broken the mold and are trying to be living a different way. They say, why don't you call it forever-unemployable? So tell me what you mean by that when you say forever-unemployable. Well, there's kind of two phases to it in my experience. My lived experience. One is an increasing frustration with having a boss and just going, look, when I worked and I worked in different companies and different agencies and the like, I was generally liked by my clients, by my peers, by the people who reported it into me. And I was generally annoying to my boss. And so I'm, uh, the Zat. And then at a certain point of being an entrepreneur where you're used to having a way of working, a way of sensible economy, a sense of creativity, a sense of responsibility, it becomes very hard to imagine not having that anymore and having to report into somebody and fit into a structure. So I think at a certain point you get, you just get turned and you're like, I said, I can never go back to the backside or layside, depending on where you, how you want to frame it. But it's very hard to imagine anybody being able to employ me and be my boss. It's interesting. I thought about this a lot because, you know, in the book I talk about, certainly growing up, I never felt entrepreneurial. I didn't see myself as an entrepreneur. I was never the ideas guy. I was the execution guy. If you had a good idea, I'd hope you get it done. And that was the career path that I followed and really kind of only when getting pushed out of sort of the mainstream world and kind of kicking and screaming dragged me into an entrepreneurial venture. Did I kind of see this different side, the dark side of the light side, depending on which way you want to go? It's interesting. I mean, there's some baggage being an entrepreneur comes with, which is around, it's about the money, it's about the hustle, it's about the grind. And I would not have guessed that I would have ended up being an entrepreneur. I'm surprised there's anybody else. I'm surprised that I'm still an entrepreneur because I could have guessed I might have become a failed entrepreneur. But I do think that there's times when a taste for autonomy is part of what drives you into being that kind of entrepreneurial way of working. Yeah. And some folks too, I think there's a taste of for autonomy and maybe there's a level of frustration as well. For example, like my background is design and even in digital design, even today, that career path is fairly limited. Not that many options. What you hit sort of director of design beyond that. Like SVP, EVP, C level roles, just aren't that many of those. And so you kind of have to figure out what to do next and how to do it. And of course there's always a danger of continuing to try and climb the mountain, getting to the top of the mountain and going, it's not the mountain. I wanted to climb. And you're like, wow, I've wanted all my life to be the EVP of this. And actually, and it's that, it's kind of that sunk cost fallacy, which is, well, I've invested this much time in it so far. I may as well push for the next level because that's where the reward is. And of course, it's never there. I mean, in some ways, see, if I had a very good fortune of, became a road scholar in my mid 20s, and it did two amazing things, three things. One is, you immediately get a kind of, you know, status and a degree of kind of success by being a road scholar. But more practically, it did two things. First of all, most importantly, I've got to Oxford where I immediately met my cell and my wife and we've been married for a couple for at least almost 30 years now. So that's a huge win. But the other thing that it really did was it stopped me becoming a lawyer because I was finishing a law degree in Australia. And if I hadn't got the scholarship that took me out of Australia, I would have gone, well, just do what they call College of Law, which is kind of the work you do to become qualified to be a practical lawyer. It's the gap year between finishing a law degree and starting a law career. And then of course, if you've done College of Law, you're like, well, I'm going to do a couple of years being a lawyer. And then you're like, wow, another five years and I could be a junior partner. And that's awesome. So then before you know it, you joined the many lawyers who've gone, I had a 15 career, year career being a lawyer. I never actually wanted to be that. It's just momentum swept me onwards. So sometimes you need a lucky break and it just kind of pulls you out of the stream that you're in. I'm going to double down on what you said about the sun cast fallacy because it permeates everything. It's easily applied in the work that we do when it comes to the projects. When we've done six months in this direction and yes, all science point that this is going to be a disaster, but we'll put in six months. So we got to get it done. But the same kind of concept applies to, I think your career, I think it applies to your aspirations and sort of life as well. My wife put in this much time. Like you said, working towards becoming a lawyer, I should be a lawyer, shouldn't I? Right. It's like, you're going to keep making sure that the whole you're digging is the right hole. Digging faster just doesn't fix the problem. Yeah, that's really smart. So tell me a little bit about your story. So we've got the road scholar, the lawyer part of it. So I finished doing a master's degree in literature at Oxford. Yeah, I've now been in university for eight years. I've got three degrees. I have no idea what I'm doing with my life. I stumble into this job. There's nothing to do with any of the degrees I have in the world of innovation and creativity. So I spent five or six years in a startup doing new product development. That's what we now know to call it. Although it's kind of pre-fast company and it was kind of early on. And the guys who started it were, they were mavericks. They came from Unilever, a big consumer goods company. And they're like, let's just do things differently. That's invoice weirdly. That's, whatever normal is, let's not do that. And that was very liberating as a first job for me. Because at the time I had long hair and earrings and I made my own clothes. And they're like, cool, you're weird. We like it. You're smart and weird. It's a nice mix. Come on down. And at a certain point, I went, I don't love spending my life inventing the next range of soup for Hines. It's just not the impact I want to have in the world. And I was also curious to know why all the ideas we had were tend to go into the back to the bigger company we were working for. And they would just die. Innovation struggles within corporate settings. Because corporations are bastions of homeostasis. Keep things as they are. It doesn't matter what anybody says. Stability is the point of a big organization. So I moved into the world of organizational development and organizational change. How do you make change happen in organizations? And that took me from working in London to being part of a startup office in Boston, which honestly just was miserable for two, maybe three years. We struggled. What I know now is it was like, it was a badly thought through decision with no real strategy. It was just terrible. Anyway, so that was miserable, but it got me to North America. And my wife and I, when I knew I was leaving that job, decided to go to North America.
to move to Canada. So I lined up another consulting job, but my flight out of Boston was on 9/11. So I also sort of, you know, mess and chaos and confusion around that. But also meant that when I finally got to Canada, the job I had lined up had vanished, which was a lucky break because after six months in a kind of transitioning job, I started the company that would become known as Box of Crowns. When I started it, I was just doing the desperate entrepreneur thing, which is like my business model is to find somebody with a wallet and a pulse and say yes to whatever they're asking for. But over time, that company found its focus and it was to help teach practical coaching skills. You know, the language they have now is helping organizations move from advice driven to curiosity led. But for a long time, our hookwise, we teach 10 minute coaching to busy managers. And I kind of ran that for 15, 17 years about a year and a half ago, stepped away from being CEO of that and set up a new company called MBS.works, which you kindly referenced at the start. And if Box of Crowns has a, you know, whether they say B2B focus, MBS.works has a B2C focus that's helping individuals become a force for change, helping them not only evolve and grow themselves, but make the world a better place at the same time. - Got it. - And along the way, you've written some books and you've developed this entrepreneurial platform for yourself and you're sharing your information. It advertently you find yourself with this lucky break of starting your company shortly after 9/11. But then you start to kind of spread beyond that. You start to write books and to share your learnings and to share your advice. - Right. - Why? Why do that in the first place? - It's a work. - It is. And it's like, it's mostly a miserable experience writing a book. You have to kind of know why you're doing it. You've got to have a purpose to it. Sometimes that purpose is, I see how it fits with my business model. Like the coaching habit book, which is the one that's really kind of taken off its closing in about a million copies sold now, which is ridiculous. - Yes. - But actually I didn't need it to sell them. That's just a bonus. That's just a miracle. I knew that with the coaching habit, if I could sell a thousand copies to the thousand right people, it would generate money for my company. And it has. - You know, I can point to at least $10 million in revenue that that book has specifically generated for Boxer Crown. Somebody's picked up the book and gone, I read your book, do you do training around this? And we're like, yes, we do. (laughing) And there's at least five clients, which are more, worth more than a million dollars in revenue for us, directly correlated to that book. But the very first book I wrote called Get On Start and Get Going, it was not so much about fitting into a business model, although I was like, this kind of reflects what I'm teaching at the moment who I'm talking to. But I got left a bit of money from my grandfather, $20,000. When my grandfather died. And I was like, what do I do with this? And I had this idea of a book that I'd been kind of in and out of for about five years. And what we decided, my wife was kind of to say, look, spend the money on the book. So I self published this book, it was complicated. It was like a kid's flip book. You have a soccer player's head and a ballerina's body and a scuba diver's legs and you can kind of mix and match that. Well, it brought a process for generating ideas and provocations using that as a kind of basic technology. It was in 2005 or something that I did this. It was kind of just before self publishing became a real thing. And it involved us having to set up, do it get it made in China and blah, blah, it was a complicated thing. But this was more of a, I want to follow through in a project. I want to have a book written. I want to get this out in the world. And I think it's a good idea. So originally, the first two books I wrote, getting second year going, do more great work. I could see them as being articulations and encapsulations of intellectual property and ideas that I had because here was a seminal moment for me. This is really essential to understanding the success I've had in growing a platform. There's a guy here in Toronto run something called strategic coach. His name is temporarily out of my head, but I went and saw a talk he gave and he said, "Look, there are three phases you go through as an entrepreneur." And he's talking about somebody who is a dentist. He says, "Phase one, you say I'm a dentist." In other words, you collapse your identity into the job role. Phase two, you say, "I'm an entrepreneur who does dentistry." So now you understand that it's not about how good a dentist I am. It's about how good an entrepreneur am I? How do I market? How do I sell? How do I set up systems? How do I be efficient? How do I be ambitious? How do I sell beyond myself? The third role is I create intellectual property around dentistry. And what this guy would say is like, this is how you scale. This is how you create impact as you start thinking about IP. So the very first piece of IP I created was called the eight irresistible principles of fun. I was giving a talk at my local coach chapter and I was like, "Okay, I'm going to try out this IP thing." So I created an idea, I had created a model and built out some language around it and then turned it into a little video which actually kind of was slightly pre-YouTube, but it kind of had over a million views. Before anyone was doing, if I was now able to capture names and move people to an email list and done all that, I didn't know of that, but that understanding that creating intellectual property allows you to scale was a very powerful moment for me. And then you get to a point, Jeff, where you're like, "Okay, now you're going to create good intellectual property." Because of course, now everybody knows that you want to create content to get known. So everything's full of, I mean, the noise is enormous. And signal is hard to find. So now it gets into some of the stuff that you talk about, which is like, when are you creating and how are you getting it out there into the world and how does it stand out from the crowd? How do you get noticed? That's hard. - Yeah, for sure. And it does feel like everything's been said and everything's been out there. - That doesn't matter. Before you hit record, we were talking about stuff and I'm like, "Old wine in new bottles." And I'm like, my best son in book, The Coaching Habits, like questions are good. I'm not the first person to figure that out. You know, the like, the star with Socrates and then go back another 5,000. Everett, I mean, but the way I talk about it and the way I present it is interesting and different and curated in a certain way. So you can't use the excuse of it being done on said before because it's like, yeah, of course it had everything's been done and said before and it can be reset. - People who lose that, I remember a few years ago, I was at a design conference in Amsterdam. There was a thousand designers there. And I was speaking to some of the organizers and I was just going, how do you feel about the event? And they said it's so difficult creating this kind of event because you've got to have 15, 20, 30 year veterans of design who really want content for them. And then you've got all these folks who are just coming into the practice and then looking for that entry level, one-on-one level content. And it's one of the things that I think people forget is that there is always a market for entry level content. There's always a market for one-on-one level content. And so my question back to you then is, what is the new bottle, right? So the new bottle that you've had, so if it's old wine and a new bottle, what are the characteristics if we're gonna take this metaphor for the characteristics of that new bottle that helped you stand out? It starts with a commitment to try and find my own articulation of the thing. Years ago I came up with the acronym taboo. Taboo stands for true and bleedingly obvious. And it just feels like that's what I see flowing through my feeds on an endless day. It's like here's a bleedingly obvious banal statement about leadership. Like how was that added to the good of the world? No, my world around leadership is like, here's a story about Southwest Airlines. I'm like, "Ah, do we really need to talk about Southwest Airlines again?" Because I mean they're great, but where's the new story? Where's the new angle? Where's the different way of framing that? Yeah. So, you know, there's this other great quote about finding simplicity on the other side of complexity. It's a very kind of designer based quote. You know, this is named as a Supreme Court, a US Supreme Court judge. Look, I don't care for simplicity on this side of complexity, but I'd give anything for simplicity on the other side of complexity. So part of the work that I try and do, and it doesn't always work, but this is my goal, is to have needed the dough. To move to, we're getting quite religious now, what was wine and bread. Needing the dough to get it. So it's like, I've worked through all of that and what I present feels straightforward, but also has a freshness and a difference that feels remarkable. It's interesting. It takes experiments. It takes iterations to figure out what that new and remarkable packaging and failures. You know, it's just got to realize how much failure the successful people have. (laughing) It's amazing too. I mean, look, it's something that not enough people write about. I think not enough people share it when it comes to sharing experiences. I think folks like to talk about, well, I did this in it.
kicked ass. You know, actually, the 900 things I did leading up to that did not kick ass. I saw Rick picture the other day of a guy who has published hundreds of cartoons in the New Yorker, which is the kind of the acme of, for a cartoonist, that's where you want your cartoon to, to get. And he's got these two piles and one is tiny, which is the yeses. And then he's got to pile this high of, it just has the sticky note on it saying "nose." He's just had thousands of cartoons rejected. It's like Seth Godin's got a new book out called The Practice, which is excellent. And it's about shipping creative work. It is a great prime of for anybody who's going, "How do I do this stuff?" And one of the phrases I heard Seth talk about the other day was he said, "I blog because it's tomorrow, not because I have something to say." And he's just committed to blogging every day. And he's like, "I'm a good writer, I create books, and I create content because I blog every day." And the process, it's a commitment to process even over outcomes. I saw that same thing just literally this week and I noted that as well. Seth, I've recently quadrupled my writing piece. Yeah, I'm not every day, I'm every week. It used to be every month. Now it's every week. And you know what, there's better blog posts than some at that pace. Yeah, I'm writing a new book at the moment. And like every day I write, some days I write garbage. I mean my first draft. So some days I write total garbage, some days I write partial garbage. It's all garbage at the moment. It's miserable, but it's part of the process. I'm going to come together. Let me ask you the question. Speaking about books, this is really something I'm super curious to hear your answer about this, because it's personal for me. Just so I'm being a little selfish perhaps. But it's my interview. So why not? Yeah, I get to do that. So when I introduced you as the best known as the author of the coaching habit and you've talked about the coaching habit, you've written several books. In fact, you've written a book more recently than the coaching habit called the advice trap as well. However, based on the way that you wanted to do yourself and what I know, the coaching habit is the most successful book so far, right? And so you're the coaching habit guy. That's right. While I haven't sold a million copies of it, lean you X, the first book that I co-wrote with John Siden also was kind of a defining book for me. And regardless of how many books I've written since then, I'm a lean you X guy. Yeah. Right? And so let's just for a second here, let's for folks who have had a bit of success, who have built a bit of a platform for themselves, who have who have scaled with IP and they've gotten known for a thing and now either want to expand that or maybe move to an adjacent subject matter or maybe just do a sharp right turn, talk about something completely different. How are you getting beyond that? Like how are you? Did you want to get beyond being the coaching habit guy? And if so, how do you do that? Very interesting question. So I've got a few things swirling around my brain. So Jeff interrupt me if I've started to monologue and it's starting to get boring. But first is a question to go, are you trying to double down on the success you've had? And there's a lot of good reasons to do that. No, it's like, just what you're known for, just keep pushing money onto that process and investing in building that reputation. At a certain point, you might should say, look, I'm tired of this. You know, I'm looking at Marie Folio's book there. And Marie Folio, she's like, I do my Marie Folio MBA and I do it every year and she makes millions of dollars on it and she just keeps doing it. And I think she'll be fine to milk that calf for a long time. For various reasons, one of which being me moving out of Boxer crayons and a new CEO coming on board and her wanting to de-risk the company. So it wasn't all hanging on, is Michael a live or dead? Is Michael creating IP or not IP? She's like, Boxer crayons is going to own the IP around coaching and curiosity because that's the business money. And I own that company so I want Boxer crayons to succeed. So there was a kind of strategic decision that had me opt out of that. So for me, they're involved, first of all, a process of this kind of morning to let go of the identity around the coaching habit because I'd actually spent 15 years trying to build a reputation in this space and getting known for it. So to not be going, this is what I'm chasing and this is what I want to be known for, is a bit of an odd process. Then what I found is, even if you choose to kind of leave the hamlet which you've been living, you actually need to leave the valley in which you're living, not just leave the hamlet. Not a random metaphor coming here, Jeff. And you know, for I spent a quite a long time, it's hard to get away from the gravity of a reputation. No, it's like Godfather too. Just think you get out and they keep pulling you back in or whatever and you get said. And there was a defining process that really helped me. I worked with a woman called Aaron Weed. She's based in Colorado. And she has a process called the dig. And what she does is she listens to your stories over two half day sessions. And then she comes up with an operating system based on your language, which she says, this is what you stand for. And she says, I'm going to give you your word. This is the word that is essential to your identity and the impact you want to have on this world. And when I did it with her, and I was a bit skeptical about it, but when I did it with her, the words she came back for me around was the word power. She's very interesting and novelized expecting it all. And it's too long to explain why that's such a good relevant word for me. But it kind of got me over the out of the valley, over the hill until the next valley. And in fact, as soon as I had that word and permission to have power rather than coaching as my thing, you know, for no possible to ideas around what I could write about, what I could start a podcast on and what I could build as an entrepreneur. But do you feel like she gave you the okay to make that shift? She almost gave you the permission to stop being the coaching habit guy and be the power guy or I wouldn't quite use any of that language. What she showed me was a doorway. Okay. Yeah. And it's like up to me to walk through it and cross the threshold and do that. Going back to that metaphor, she's like, here's the path out of the valley. Yeah. It's called power. Walk this path a little bit, get over, see the sunrise in a new valley, see what changes and shifts for you. So I think that's part of it. Jeff, I think the other answer to this question is leaning in until Jim Collins is metaphor. Jim Collins famous for good to great. He talks about strategy and he says, look, the way you build a good strategy is you fire bullets and then you fire cannonballs. Bullets being low cost risks. Yeah. Yeah. Small experiments and cannonballs being the commitment to the bigger thing. So in the last year, as I've been in between states, I've a ran a literary conference called the two pages festival where in a day I had 20 authors to half hour interviews with me where they would read two pages from their book and then we discuss it. Almost killed me because it was like 15 hour event on LinkedIn Live. I ran it for four months. I did something called cocktails and questions where I'd invite a small group of people from my kind of extended network. And I would host a one hour conversation where we would sit with a hard vulnerable question and people would share and connect and build a network. And partly I did those because they're like interesting creative projects I wanted to do. But partly I was firing bullets to go, is there a business in me hosting intimate conversations? I'm like, I loved it, but it's too draining. It's not sustainable. It's not scalable. I can't do that. Yeah. Is there something around doing your two pages podcast? Maybe could do something like that. How does it fit with the impact I'm looking to have in the world? Has it fit with this idea of power and unlocking power and challenging and upturning people's assumptions around power? That doesn't quite fit there either. So part of it is you can't think your way through this. You have to run small experiments to see what feels interesting. Yeah. That's the philosophy that I bring from the primate world. It's for a vulnerable talks about running experiments. How do you know which direction to head into? Well, you don't. You've got some ideas. Right. It's like idea. Right? Ideos like fail faster to succeed faster. Yeah. It's like that kind of core design process, which is like do rapid iterations and you get some we're interesting faster. This was a bit more tactical, but I want to get your perspective on this because I feel like one of the things I talk about in the book is about giving everything away. Give it all away from free. The more you can give back, the more that comes back to you. And it was unintuitive for me to learn. It was difficult for me to come to grips with. I think for a lot of folks, the idea of sharing their experience, sharing their challenges and how they overcame those challenges is vulnerable. Certainly, to some extent, but more so they may say it is a, well, it's my competitive advantage. I know how to do this now. Yeah. If you don't, I can meet you to it. The example that comes to mind immediately is I read an article that you wrote where you were very specific and tactical about all the things that you did to promote the coaching habit. And explicitly, the part that I recall most clearly is the part about how to get reviews. Yeah. The book itself. And not only were you very specific, here are the 10 steps, the 10 things that we did, and here are the templates, go get the templates, download those things. You know, and I went and I did all of that literally. I followed the recipe, I grabbed your templates, we edited them to fit this content, we shipped them out, and it worked in getting reviews, right? For for every
employable and it's amazing. Super grateful for you for that. So like how do you reconcile giving all of that away when many ways that was your competitive advantage? That's what made the coaching habit rise above the noise in theory. Yeah. Well, I don't buy into the theory of giving everything away. I buy into the Adam Grant framework of give and take, which is like there's two ways of giving in this world. One is giving in a way that is fully generous but also nourishes you. And there's another way of giving away, which is that depletes you. In Grant's book, give and take, he talks to me and says, "Oh, the people who give in that poor way, that depleting way, they come last in everything because all they do is be a victim to their circumstances and they get exploited." But the people who tend to come to the top of the list are the people who give with a mindfulness around why they give, not with a direct expectation, not with a kind of well-off stretch to your back and you expect something back immediately. And then I'd like to cause a really good example. Like I wrote it three or four years ago now. I know thousands and thousands of people have read it and found it useful because people tell me, sometime in the next week or two, I think. And this may not come off, but I think this will happen, which is a guy wrote as writing a blog, a long blog post on the state of publishing at the moment, which will get published on Tim Ferriss's blog. Tim Ferriss big name, the huge reading of readership. And my book, The Coaching Habit, will be one of the case examples in that. And he knows about my book because I wrote that long article. But I wrote that article as a gift to the world to going, "Look, book marketing is hard." Maybe it tells you what to do. It's a grind, not all books deserve to flourish. But if you're going to book that is great and you really want to get it out in the world, I'd like to know what the really great books are. And it helps if you know how to market it a little bit. So there's nothing at risk for me to share that. But what's really helpful is to understand what your business model is. How do you make money? And how do you protect how you make money? So with MBS.works, this is this new enterprise of mine, relatively new. The way we will make money is by helping make people make progress on work that matters to them. It's like, here's how you get going. Make momentum. Make a difference in the way that you show up in the world. I'm going to ask you to pay for the progress that I help you make. That's going to be my business model. What that means is my teaching is free, but my teaching invites you to become part of my community. And when you're part of my community, you're invited to become part of a membership site, which allows you to make progress on what works. So I understand what I'm giving away and I understand what I'm not giving away. And that just creates a degree of freedom. I love that, right? I love the fact that there's a very explicit and deliberate thinking, right? Plan behind, look, I'm going to give this away, right? Which is going to drive back some kind of activity that ends up generating income for me, which is really specific. Yeah, but to your point, almost everything that you give away, I somebody else has thought of it already, be they're probably giving it away for free, see they probably can't implement. So if they find it and they love it, they may will call you up and go, "Hey, how do I do this?" Yeah, amazing. Michael, thank you. This has been delightful. It's been informative. It's been fun and tremendously valuable. So I appreciate you generously giving away your time. And I think the folks listening will learn a ton from it. So I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for sharing your forever-employable story with us. My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Jeff. Hey, it's Jeff. Thanks again for joining me for this episode of Forever Employable Stories. If you enjoyed the show and learned something new, tell a friend. The best way you can help us grow is to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform and send this episode to someone you think can benefit from it. As always, feel free to reach out and connect on LinkedIn. I'd love to hear from you. Do you know someone who has a great forever-employable story? Someone who has built a platform and an audience using their unique skills and experience? If so, I want to talk to them. Send me a note at
[email protected] and let me know.
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