From Dropping Out of Uni, to CMO and 7-figure Founder, with Alessio Pieroni

[Music] You're listening to the Easy Crazy Podcast. The show where we explore the crazy ideas turning to career and life success. Every episode, every new different guest from around the world and entrepreneur, a leader, someone who has inspired me. To show you how diverse careers can be and to help you build a career on your own terms. I'm your host, Ann Yonara. And today, for our second episode, I sit with Alessio Pironi. Alessio is now the founder and CEO of Scale for Impact. Seven-figure digital marketing agency for coaches and course creators. But he didn't start his career as an entrepreneur. As you will hear, he shares his three easy crazy moments. Now just one, and we trace his full journey from dropping out of university, making unexpected move to Asia. And these moves made him land the job at Apple. But then, the story didn't end here. You found this zone of genius in marketing, becoming the CMO of Mind Valley, the pioneering personal development company. And the surprises continue. The journey was shaped step by step. And I'm sure you will relate to many of these doubts, and frustrations, because that's where we go as well. How did you find this path? Tune in to find out. Let's dive in. [MUSIC PLAYING] Hello. I am so happy, honored, and excited to start the first episode of Easy Crazy. And even happier that my first guest and friend here, is Alexiopieroni. Ciao, Ale. Ciao, Ale. Super excited to be here, super. Happy for you to start this journey. Happy to be the first guest. Yeah, it is such an honor, because you are not just someone that I admire for your career. You are a friend. You've been a colleague. One of the reasons that I rocked my career many years ago. So it felt just natural to have you. We have so many inspiring stories to share about your career. And so many things that I want to unpack. Well, let me introduce you first. So welcome, Alexi here on the show. He is the founder of Scale4Impact, a seven-figure marketing agency for coaches, courses, creator. People really want to have an impact with their experience, with their wisdom. And you're going to tell us more about it. What is interesting about your journey is that you didn't always do marketing. You didn't always own your own company. So there's many transitions that we're going to explore. And let's see where this conversation takes us. So yeah, we're here to explore the human behind all these amazing things. Are you ready? I'm very ready. This is when a fun journey and I hope that people will have fun listening to it. For sure. So let's start with right now. So tell us about Scale4Impact and what do you love about your career now? So Scale4Impact is a marketing agency for course creators, as you mentioned. And we do work with some of the biggest name in the industry from Icono, Tony Robbins, Manval, Marisa Pierre, some of the biggest names in the industry. And what we do is that we build finance and advertising for those creators. Basically, we add the megaphone for the wisdom. We want to make sure that we can take it to all different levels. So we add them to impact and we scale it. That's why Scale4Impact. We are an agency that is fully remote. We have about 20 people in the team right now from, I think, 14 different countries. Last time we had a content. So it's super exciting, super fun. And I would say that for me, personally, it's been the best way to start my entrepreneurial journey. It's been a very easy transition from the job I was doing before to the company right now. And it's been something I always wanted to do in my life. And I'm very glad that it did the jump. Okay. And because you didn't start your life and your career as an entrepreneur. So one of the things, of course, and one of the places we worked together was in my valley where you really moved up through the ranks until last year, your chief marketing officer. And I want to hear about one thing. What was your easy, crazy moment, the nudge or the breaking point that made you think? You know what? I'm going solo. You know, the experience in my valley was magical when you're being in that environment. So you know, exactly what can happen there? All the things that are there. And I would say that for me, the experience was incredible because I started literally as the most junior person in the company. And almost three years later I was the chief marketing officer. And then, you know, when you start that role, you're like, oh my god, can I do that? I remember I was 29 with me. I was like, can I do that? Can we do that enough? And then after I was, I'm like, oh, I'm actually good at that. And I remember we grew from about 25 to 75 million in the two years I was a more. And I think that the more I was going to grow and the more I felt really confident about more skills, what I could do, the impact I could bring, not just to my valley, but to the rest of the world. And while this was happening, I remember that we had a few months before I decided to live with a very big conversation with Vision, which was the founder of the company in the CEO. And I remember that Vision had a very clear vision. The vision was let's focus in some archival and education. Let's focus a lot more on community and offline experiences with the special markets. Let's do more events, let's do a lot more offline community and let's not focus a lot on online. And it was crazy to me because it's like, that's all that is bringing money here. I was like, the entire growth, I mean, the entire growth, I see that we can achieve. It's happening because of all that education and it really felt strongly that we needed to end that direction. What if I'm very strongly that we need to end that direction? We both very opinionated and I must say that in five years together, that was probably the only fight we had. But I remember that after that conversation, I went back home and I started thinking around that conversation and I was really thinking, how is that really happening? That I'm so concerned about this. And then I stopped for a second. I was like, well, a second. There is a founder in the CEO of an incredible company that worked so hard to bring the company there. And he's a vision. And I have a very opposite vision, the name. And I only say more. So my role is to take his vision and transform it into marketing. And I want to go to something that's completely different. And I was like, well, if this vision is so strong for me, maybe I should go ahead and do it myself. That was really a question that I started asking. And at the same time, it was like, and maybe for him, it's better that he has a CMO that believes in his vision that can actually help him and take this vision and bring it forward. So it really felt at the moment that, you know, what really makes sense that we should let us just stop being the CMO of my ballet. And maybe I should be the one that actually take this vision forward and start doing something of my own. And it became very clear at that point that that was what I needed to do. OK, so what I'm hearing is it was a disagreement, a moment where you felt more triggered. And that was maybe frustration. And instead of just being upset at someone, you reverted the question to yourself and feel like, what is this strong feeling trying to tell about me and what can I do about it? Yeah, and it's interesting because going back to the Is it Crazy moment, for me, it's like, well, is it crazy that I want to start an online education company or work with an education business is on my own? And I remember I looked at my girlfriend back then, my wife now. And it's all there. I really think about that. And she was like, yes, but you're in new progression and take out the vision right now. That's right. She was right. She was right. I basically told them, let's do this. Let's take three weeks off on Christmas. I have a lot of holidays that I never used. It's like three full weeks off and let me take proper time to do a thing this year. And the more I was thinking through, the more this is it crazy. It was like, it's crazy if you don't do it. And then I switched. It's an only thing. You're more and I was really seeing myself really fired up about thinking, oh my God, then I couldn't do this. And that, and this would be amazing at this. And that was beautiful, because it was really the moment in which I felt, okay, I really have that fire for this vision, and it's really crazy not to do anything with that, yeah. - I love how you flip the question and the perspective. It's crazy if I don't do it. And the cool thing is that you took time, which is something that not everybody does or not everybody seems to do, but you let it sit, and then this kind of little spark became a big fire until you was like, okay, this is my next thing, I gotta try. And the time was right, and everything you did after that moment really brought you, like you could bring everything together, and look how successful it was. So definitely now you can say, looking back, it would have been crazy not to do it, even if you didn't have the certain feedback then. Let me actually share something that's really, it gets crazy than this, right? Because the part of the story is really insane, is that this entire thing happened, and it was like November, December 2019. Now I go back in Malaysia where the company was, and then in January 2019, I resigned, and vision asked me, "Hey, can you just stay till March 2020, "and then believe?" I'm like, "I should show no problem." So I do that, and then my life's been off, it's like the first week of COVID, it's like, "Yeah, I'm already laughing, the whole world "just went crazy in between." And now it's like, okay, okay, now it's really crazy. I left the company in the middle of a pandemic, and back then we didn't know, is the world gonna end in two weeks, or is this just a fluke, what's happening? And I was like, "Okay, starting a business "in that specific moment was also something very fun, "because I do remember, I was like the moment "that closed last Zoom call." I was like, "What the hell did I do exactly?" I had a great job, a great position. Something pretty safe in a very unsafe moment of the world, and that's the moment we each had decided to start a company. I was locked down in Malaysia, I couldn't even open legally the company. I remember I was like, "Where's the car?" I opened a company now that they were being closed, and I remember, "Oh, yeah, this irassian scene, "is Tony, let me open it down." It was the only place in the world that I can open it right now. It was really, really crazy, but at the same time, it really became my blessing in disguise for me, because obviously we covered every one went online, so many more companies needed online education help, and that was a fantastic kick start of my business. But I do remember actually this was an activation that it all meant factories. Like, these things looked like it's getting a lot more serious. You wanna stay in the company. And I don't live, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. (laughs) So it gets even crazier. Sometimes there are people that will say, "I shouldn't listen to university, university, I told you, "and bring the biggest pandemic when you wanna send the business, "you probably just come to the company." And I would say, "Well, the universe brought COVID, "so that my business could be stronger when I started." So it's a different way to look at things, right? - It looks like with everything, you can always look at something and take it as a reason not to do things. And instead, you're like, "No, I'm gonna do it anyway, "the decision is taken, it's gonna work for me." And actually was the biggest opportunity for you. So this kind of reminds me of the same, if you wanna go on a trip, don't look at the clouds, because if you're looking for excuses not to do something, we're always going to hold back and you didn't. But I wanna go back a few more years, Ale, because I know from your experience that this was not the only crazy pivot, but you had other two crazy moments. So can you expand that? Can you tell those stories? Just for everyone listening, I'm not the crazy guy, right, just some more markers. But yeah, it took some crazy decision in my life. (laughs) So before joining my body, I had started my marketing journey and let me say, starting completely from scratch, 'cause I didn't know anything about marketing. I was actually a recruiter in Apple. I used to work in London, and it was my dream company. I think Apple back then, it was 2013, 2014, was really just a few years after C-Jobs time. And everything was just like, I think we just launched Apple Watch, what I was that. So it was really a moment where the company was growing, it was the number one undisputed company in the world and then working there, working in London, working in Apple, being part of that entire movement, was incredible, was one of those, one in a lifetime experience that I'm extremely glad. I lived and I went through. And unfortunately, when you work for such a big brand and you look at this brand from outside, you have a perception and then once you go inside, you have another. And sometimes it's interesting because the external perception and internal perceptions start to change a little bit and you understand how certain things work and how certain things work very well for the product they do, but doesn't work very well for the person I am and I want to work. Right? So let me give you a typical example. Like, Nepal, confidentiality is one of the biggest values in Apple. Like you all know that Apple keeps their iPhone private till the last minutes of the launch and reveal, even if the biggest change that they do is that is slightly faster. But the entire thing happens everywhere in the company. So even if you're recruiting for a position, that position, no one can know about that position and it creates a lot of complication and things and mistrust in the team. And I really didn't like the environment at all, right? So something that maybe I would love as a consumer because a lot of the launch is, I didn't like working that, right? Interesting perspective. And so it's interesting that you might love something so much as a consumer that doesn't mean that you love it so much as a workplace. And more than that, I enter an Apple with the idea of like, let me enter, even if you want me to clean the floor and I'll clean the floor and I'll be happy. Turns out it doesn't work like that. I think I was a recruiter. And I wasn't bad, but I definitely hated the job. I hated the job. I was sometimes doing, I don't know, 20 interviews in a day for candidates. Some other time I was seriously cleaning for like eight hours a day or something like that. It was just like something that I was like, oh my god, why did I want to university? Why did I study so much? Why did I work in India? Why did I do so many things to do this? It's just so simple as a job, right? But that was really a very interesting thing because I was looking at this experience and I was like, that's clearly not what happiness looked like. I'm very clear that I'm extremely happy in this job. And but still, I was in what I was calling the Golden Prison. It was perfect. Like the little kid from a small town in Italy that the 25 words in the center of London in the number one company in the world with a very good salary and stuff. And everyone is like, I'm the proud of my mom and this kind of stuff. I'm completely unhappy myself. And for a while, I was like, OK, definitely something wrong with me is everyone else. Whatever I tell them what I do, they're just like, that's my dream job. So for sure, I just need to feel it out. And then I remember that I, when my manager comes and tells me, Alessio, we've been creating this position. It's a position where we need an Italian person. And you are the person I want for this position. So you'll be basically the only candidate here who just apply and you'll get this job. And I was like, oh my goodness, so cool. They really believe in me. That's a promotion. That's a much better contract. I can take things that I can follow and do it. And then I start going through the process and start doing the interviews. And then another person working for Apple told me, Alessio, look, I've heard that actually this position was promised to someone else. It used to work for Apple years ago. And it's kind of a fake process. And I was like, OK, then why would my manager tell me that this position is for me? That's a American essence. I need to know that these other person was right. The position was for these other person. Greg Guy, by the way. But at the same time, it's like why did they promise to me then? And I felt so lost in this because I was an epic. I was promised a position. I was working for the-- and then in the end, I was like, why am I doing this? And it's like, why there is so many politics and stuff for some financial business so simple? And I just felt, OK, this is not the place. This is not my story. I will not become the director of the Char of Apple in my life. I know that I wouldn't be happy with that. So I need to find something else. That was really, and maybe because I was so unhappy, I was like, "Okay, I want to find anything that will bring me this happiness." That was really the goal for me. And everything was on the table. I remember I started to apply for a lot of different jobs in London, because I love London. But then again, nothing was really fitting with what I really wanted. And I was like, "You know, more than finding a job in London, I need to find myself." Because the reality is that I don't really know what I like. I remember that I read an article, and the article was saying something about product management, and I'm saying, "Yeah, I want to do product management." I was like, "And I was applying for product management job, and I had no tech experience, no nothing." I was completely lost, or what I wanted to do. And then I was like, "Okay, I need to figure out something else." And that's where I remember that back in university, I was in a conference in Russia, and that it was one speaker, which was vision. I spoke at the conference, and I didn't even remember what I spoke about, but I remember that at the end of the speaker, you say, "One day I want to work for this guy." The founder of my family. The founder of my family, yes. And I was like, "You know what? What is this company?" "Malaysia." "Okay, where is Malaysia?" I went on the map and said, "Oh, that's pretty far away." "Let's do it." I applied just like that out of the blue, and I took like a 80% pay cut to go from Apple to market. And I remember that when they gave me the offer, I tried to negotiate that even when it only allowed me to do it, because I don't have a lot of money, we can negotiate. And then I printed the contract, and then I kept it for one day on my desk. And I was like, "I'm actually doing it." That was a really crazy moment. I'm like, "This is like having to get this such a big pay cut to go on the other side of the world to the job with project manager. That means everything had nothing." I was like, "I don't even know what I'm going to do." I'm like, "I don't know, this sounds crazy." But then again, the guy instinct was really telling me that that was the thing in it. And I knew that that company, that flexibility, that environment would have allowed me to figure out what I was and what I wanted. It was now that project management in my environment marketing and launching products. And somehow that was a perfect fit for my skills. A lot better than what was recruited. And we know, if I would have got that promotion back then, maybe I would still be in Apple and Epic. Maybe I would have got some small bump here and there and still be there in that prison. And I'm glad that someone has enjoyed that position instead of the big, right? Yeah, what a shift. Like when you said, "Probably if I would have gotten the promotion, I wouldn't even have looked for something different." And instead it allowed you to really find the thing that you're most suited for. What a refrain. And from what you were saying, I think there's a lot of points that could resonate in the people that are listening from the Golden Prison when a company it seems perfect on the outside, especially and I've been there when her family are so proud because you're working for the company that everybody knows. It's so easy to explain others what you're doing. And then you're really thinking and living for a organization that no one knows of your circle and for such little money. You think, "This is no rational, but the beauty of it and I've seen it also over and over again in careers because this has been my bread and butter for more than 15 years." A lot of times the best outcomes come exactly from trusting this, I don't know, this interknowing, this intuition that there's so much more in store for us that if we don't try, we will never know. And coming back to what you were saying before, it didn't invite you because you are a crazy guy. But we all have these moments when we have this dream, this vision of, "Maybe I should go for it." And what it is, it sounds crazy in the moment, it doesn't make any rational sense. And yet, you're here telling the story about that was actually the safest and best decision you could ever take. Completely. Completely. It's interesting because when you are in that, it's paralyzing. It's so difficult, it's like you really don't, and when you look back, you're just, it's just a best decision that I've taken in my life. And I'm so glad that in my 20s, especially, I prioritize happiness or harmony. Like, if I would have prioritized money or get some savings or this kind of stuff, I would have never taken that decision. But I always say, you know, even in my valley, I never negotiated the salary literally. The main reason why is because, I mean, to me, that wasn't truly about making money, it was about ROI. Like, I'm investing this time in learning this thing for myself so that later, I can do something that would make sense for me. And that's what I did now with my agency. And I don't care about how much money I was paying there. Because even if I was paying penances, like to find, I learned so much from this, that better now I can do what I need, what I want, and I live the life I want, and live whatever I want without the constriction of anything of that. And create this company allows a lot of other people to actually live that kind of life. Wow, that's beautiful. And what about the first moment, the first university transition? That was the really the spark that put everything in motion. So actually, mainly not go way back. So in, I think I was 21 or 23, we lived together in Milan, working for this organization in ISAC, and we're managing the Italian chapter. It was like over a thousand students in 20 different cities, and mainly what part of this. Small team that was managing more of it. Such a good time. So young and exposed to decision leadership, managing people. So it's truly like learning to swim while you're in the middle of the ocean. But at least we had cool friends to do it with. You've like no idea what you're doing, but you're doing it, and you're learning so much because it's like, you know what? The decision bigger than myself, but I do it. And at the same time, that life is so different from the classic life, then I'm 21, 22, 23 year old is living. And then going back to the normal world, and then seeing how other people see you, it's very hurting. Like going to your first job after that experience, of managing the thousand people, and then they'd ask you, can you bring the copies of this? Can you do this simple study? You know how to use Excel? You're like, oh come on. Like I hope you know how to do that, friend. And for me, I had that very big change, and let's say it's locked in the face. When I decided after that experience to go back to the unit, to finish my master, and I am like, about four or five exams left, and I was like, okay, I'll take six months, I'll finish those exams, and then I'll go somewhere. And I do remember that I went for this exam. And this exam is too bad a step-step, ever. I literally had the same exam in my Bachelor degree, and again, for some reason, in the Master's degree. It was the same book, the same thing, and I come from a teacher in Italy that's very famous for kitchen appliances, and I thought this book was about how the kitchen appliance industry works in my region. How is the music? I don't know anything. I'm like, quite willing to study kitchen appliances. I don't want to work in kitchen appliances. And I go to the exam and they ask me this book, and I obviously, you know, answer. And the professor saying, "Well, you're not answering correctly. You need to answer exactly what the words that they said in the book." And I'm like, "Well, why do you need that normal life? No one will ask me about the words in the book. They'll ask me about. " And the professor said, "No, I'm sorry, you feel the exam." And I got so angry with that professor, that I was like, "Oh, come on. I did already the same exam twice, once before, once again." And they asked me the same question over and over again, and they told me to learn by memory without literally any sense about kitchen appliances. I'm like, "No, I can do a lot more than that." And I remember that I say, "I'm going to apply for jobs. I'm going to see whoever I get, whoever I like, and then I go from there." And because we were in this amazing organization, we had access to a lot of opportunities worldwide. And the job that I apply for and the actually gets selected for is a job in India as a journalist. And staffed in salary to 100 euros. Per month. Per month, obviously. And I went to my mom and I told her, "Okay, I'm dropping out of uniform." And I said, "Why?" I don't like, I like. I got a job so I don't make more. And I go, okay, great, what is the job? (laughing) Like a job that paying a lot of money and I'm in the unit, I'm like, in India, to Uncle Dura. (laughing) - She must have felt, I don't even, I don't even mention it. - It wasn't that, it's a crazy moment. It was like, are you crazy moment? And I wish it took a few days of convincing for me to convince her about this. But it was such an important step of for the first time being able to be trusted with such an important decision and to go in their known, fundamentally, but what I knew was the right experience for me at that moment. And I needed a stronger experience and needed the real world experience. And fun enough, I never finished unit. I dropped out of my master. I hear later when I applied for Apple, I asked him, why did you ever select me for Apple? And they say, well, we've never seen a 23 year old, the led a big organization like that. And then lived in India for a year and then a crazy experience like that. And now one of us, you're a perfect profile for what we look into. - Yeah, wow, mom, how about that? - People would have never accepted that 200 euro job in India. I probably have never, they would have never even seen my profile on the CV in Apple because they would have thought, like, I just another profile, but this was something that stood out, something that was interesting. And so sometimes very crazy decisions between each other, they somehow connect in the future and you're able to connect that out just looking backwards, right? And that's kind of, yeah. - Yes, good Steve, Steve Jobs quote. I love that concept and I totally see that in career, it's in life, it's so, so true. And I'll let you take a couple of things from what you're saying that I want to go deeper on. One is in all these moments, right? From university to the job nobody would expect in India, from Apple to moving to Malaysia for a smaller company, less money, then taking finally the leap to starting your own business. So many people have these ideas, these visions, these nudges and inspiration, but what is the difference? Is a lot of people end up not trusting it and not doing anything about it and then let it slide. So what made the difference for you to actually say yes? - That's a very good question. I would say that from this story looks like that whatever I decide goes well and then I'm extremely lucky or smart and it just works. But I have hundreds of failures. I've started 20 side-assles while I was doing my different jobs that didn't bring me anywhere and didn't make any money, I actually lost a lot of money and I knew nothing but allow me to learn a lot of things and then those things somehow help me out in the future. So overall what I would say is approaching different choices although sometimes as a testing grounds and taking those big decisions of like who believe jumping off and doing something completely different, just when things become sort of very clear and safe. So let me give you an example. When I left the company and I started my own business, one of the major things was also talking with a friend of mine that did that the year before and he was able to get some consulting opportunities in the same space that allowed him to survive, basically, to get some money and base bills. And that was very interesting because I was like, okay, cool, so I can start my own business and then get some consulting and then this consulting pay for things or I risk nothing. Okay, this sounds very good deal. So let me start in this way and then let's go, right? And that is very interesting. Actually, this friend of mine told me this thing once and it's like something that I always bring with me. It's like if everything goes wrong, what's the absolute worst thing that will happen in your life? And if that worst thing is your current reality, what would you actually do? And let me give an example. So I have zero money in my bank account. I need to move back with my parents and I need to back my job to take me more. Something like that, right? So I think that a big part for me was speaking with Vision, the CEO of my family and saying, hey, if these things doesn't work, can I come back in six months? And like, I assure, I will be happy to have you back. I was like, okay, cool, that's safe. So I can try for six months and then worst case scenario, I come back or go to a friend of yours that is a company and say, if I don't find anything in six months, would you hire me even at the minimum wage? So that I can put some food on the table? Yeah, sure. Or talking to your parents and say, hey, these things doesn't work out. Will you take me back to my six months? Or can I leave with you for a couple of months or I get back home at the field? Whatever it is, right? But it's like put yourself back in that worst decision and solve the thing from the worst decision, kind of saying, hey, you know, this thing, my life, and in three, six, 12 months from now, would you be able to help me in the case? Yes. And then you understand, but even the worst decision isn't that bad. Okay. Okay, so always that. No, and actually this is what I see over and over in coaching and supporting people in their transition and career changes is that when we project the fear, it's always worse in theory because when we think about it, there are 2,000 things that can go wrong and obviously it's too over wanting to plan for everything, but what you did is a great exercise, actually, to pick what is really the worst thing, what is the one scenario that I would really, really be worried of? What would I do? And then you realize, well, I can get resourceful. I'm actually solving one reality instead of thousands of things can go wrong and you realize I have planned ABC and I just focus on those. Exactly. I gave you a piece of mine to say, okay, well, I can give myself 6 months, I can give myself this time, let's just try. So one thing you didn't say, but I heard from your story is one, is you experimented a lot, so then you're always approached with, well, I'll just try this, it doesn't have to work exactly as I'm thinking, but as I do this one thing, then I will see what's next, little bit what your bit from Apple to a mind-barley story was saying, I just want to find out what I like and I cannot find it if I don't try something new. Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing that is exceptional about you, I think is removing the ego, so not being worried about, oh, what if it's a step back or what if it's less money? It's always temporary and you always look at what is the return on investment if I do something. Yeah, no one really cares about you. Like, this entire thing is just something, like, no one really cares if it's worth for my mind-barley or for a company and one of the earth off, right? It's a real thing for ourselves. And if right now for one year, I try to open a gym and it doesn't work and I lose all my savings. I can see I'm back and ask to someone can I work in marketing for your company, I can still do it. But if I really feel that my passion is opening a gym, I can do it, right? It's like, and there's no one that will tell, oh my god, I'll see how worth a gym. It's okay, like, you don't really care about that, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's probably what it helps you to always stay curious, but also you're very humble because for all the things that you've done, you're always very approachable, you're always open to share your knowledge, it's not everybody that does it and I appreciate that. And I wanna ask you two more things. So one specific about your digital marketing experience because I think a lot of the people that are listening will really admire and marketing is often seen like, oh, what is the secret that I have to learn? So finally, my business can thrive and here you are growing brands in every country, we're working with so many great names in the industry. So what is one thing that you've learned is here from your marketing experience and supporting all these incredible authors generating millions, what is the one, or like what are the key principles or learning that you think would be useful for people to know. To, you know, from distinguished from the noise in all the world. shiny things. I'm going to give you the least shiny thing I can give you about growing up. Growing up business is the most boring thing ever. Like everyone tells you it's exiling, it's boring. The growing up business is finding something to work and repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, that's it. And something is I have a client of mine that found a specific format of Instagram Reel that works for him and it just repeat that format of Instagram Reel over and over again it has 10, 15, 20 reels a month. It works. It works at 1.2 million followers on Instagram Reel now and it creates a entire business format. Now can you be very smart and create another 24 months and stuff? Yes and maybe some of that will work as well but what actually makes the business grow is that format. And and next to me is is interesting because people don't understand it or for example in my valley we figure out the webinar format works. But I have asked that and we grow. It's kind of that's it. And the the number one thing I did when I became a dare of marketing there it was canceling everything else. Just on this way, I repeat, repeat, repeat, it was literally going even deeper on that craft that it was working and made me better and better and better. Nothing else. And it's boring. It's not fun because you always want to always try this. Let's try that. So this person is in this person is doing that. Once you find something that works, repeat. Till when you don't find something that works, experiment. And that's kind of it and that's kind of it. And whenever something sticks, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. Don't go for shiny objects in Rome. Don't look at what other people are doing. Focus a lot more on what was for you and just go for that. So I could put it gold in my room. Don't focus on what other people are doing. I think it's one of the most repeated conversations that I have you know my groups. But it's it's so great where you're shedding that like just make it simple. Even though I see that it doesn't necessarily have to be boring because I think especially nowadays a lot of the entrepreneurs could appreciate having time to do other things instead of just being busy always for years and year testing a lot new things. Enjoy also a business model that actually works. 100%. Yeah. And and that's interesting. I call it boring because especially in my industry what we create or some creators are driven by the mission right. And they want to create a lot of new things. But the one that really become very good, they fall in love with creating the perfect craft for the thing that is working. Okay so the mastery. So they don't look anymore and I don't want to create a webinar anymore. I want to create this other thing. They look at how can this webinar be better than an Netflix series so that everyone will want to watch it. Then there is an entire world of fun that you can have inside that framework that works right. But a lot of people will look at that and just feel oh another boring webinar. And some other people will look at that and find an entire universe inside that. So this depends on how you approach it but if you go deep in whatever it's working, if you go deep in that format of real that is working for your business just go right and you'll find some and that's really exciting. Yeah and then I think this this concept is connected to what you were saying before. Like people are not worried about you are not thinking about you and I find it similar in a way that what we think people might need or people always want to find new things about us. Well actually what I'm hearing from you is that if you would have really become great, they are reliable. Like they always deliver what you expect them to do what you don't expect Tony Robbins or someone else to just do a new saying every week or every day you go with them because you know what you're going to find. So just stick to the floor. I'm glad that you brought this example of Tony because so many people come to me and say oh Tony Robbins doing this. Can you do this for me? And a lot of time the answer again is like do you think you're like Tony Robbins exactly? Like jeezing that your business is at the stage where Tony Robbins is and this is the right next step for you because I mean in the Royal Annegrier's Space no one is at Tony Robbins level right and I see some time people that have an email list of 1000 people and 504 words on Instagram wanted to do something that Tony Robbins is doing and I'm like do you think that's your right next step? It's like clearly it's not you to build an audience right? It's very important that you do understand not just what other people are doing but how does this fit in relation to you and maybe makes a lot more sense to study what Tony Robbins did when you have 500 followers right or what all the top people did when they were in your condition rather than what they are doing right now that they are with millions of followers and everyone knows them right? So it's like if I know I start a new product and I advertise it like Nike it will never work right? It's just like it's just not like that right? You always need to take the different lessons that you want to take from that but then adapt it to your life yeah. Well Alessio we could talk forever I know I love having this conversation with you I love business growth but also mindful of your time as well I want to ask you one last thing who are you hoping could hear this conversation that we are having now and what is really the one of two key messages that you want to make sure that goes through it can reach them. I really hope that the person that listen to this is someone that knows it wants to become eoshing wants to become an entrepreneur and is young because if you look at social media if you look at the people I was listening to they will all tell me you are 22 start a business and I think that there's a worse advice that you can give a 22 year old unless this person has a very clear idea of what they want to do with life. If I would have some my current marketing agency at 22 I would have been a disaster because I had no idea what I was doing and I see right now a lot of people starting a marketing agency at 21 without having ever worked of marketing and I'm like well how do you start a marketing agency if you don't know anything about marketing you're supposed to be good at marketing to start a marketing agency right but what really works for me and what's really a very simple way to transition towards entrepreneurship is finding out what's your talent what something that you like do that by working very hard for some companies learn so much on that give your best and then once you find that's park once you find that thing and once we're confident that aeroa I can do this on my own and have some good results and that's a good moment to make the job and I feel that that is a very non-romanticized version of entrepreneurship that is probably the right one and I mean nearly also in your case it's been pretty similar right probably if you started I mean people are making their career change at 21 you might have not been the best but after years of working in real-time companies you obviously have the best experience ever to add power to everyone else and and I think that that's the test again it's like really don't rush towards starting your own business on making this big step like maybe I think I start my business at 32 I try other people that start in 45 at 50 or at any time it's like you're mastering a craft and once you feel that that craft is good enough to take it to the rest of the world just go ahead and do it it's just a simple step and that's the game that I would really suggest everyone to play there is no deadline you don't win an award if you make this money at 25 versus 30 or 35 no one cares again it's just a matter of understanding that you are playing your own race and in some cases might be fast and so because you might be slower and in both cases it's okay yeah for sure and I think what you're saying at any age really my hope in in sharing this podcast is also that it really encourage more people to take any decision at any age and also to realize that we often I think the objection that I hear the most often with I don't know what to do because I'm not clear well actually just like in your example the Cladity Arise step by step. Like you couldn't have said in university thesis exactly the career plan that I'm going to do and yet even when I was working in court for an startup and I was in HR most of the time we approached career like this. Show me your career plan and then this is what you're gonna get. A lot of time we just need to try something. We just need to go in the wrong direction to find orthotic risk to find what actually works and there's no deadline like oh by 30 I'll figure it out by 40 will figure it out. So the sooner we realize that there isn't an ending like status especially now in the age of AI working careers are still gonna change so much. Yeah absolutely. I want to say this thing because it makes so much fun. So if you look at my curriculum my CV in my 20s people were like what the hell were you doing managing a Euphan geo journalist in India HR in London in Apple marketing in Malaysia I'm like what are you doing with your life that's what I recruiter will say looking on my CV right and my answer is yeah I wasn't building my life for a CV I was building my life for what I like to do and if that meant starting back from an internship after three four five years of my career because a you know I really want to find something I like that's it it's fine like my career plan was at zigzag was not really something that was ever a straight line and and it's fine it's completely fine. It shows that pace of it doesn't have to be a straight line and I'm so so glad and happy that you had this conversation and you decided to say yes it'll be the first guest if people want to get in touch with you and everybody should get in touch with you if they're not already well they can find you. I think this place is LinkedIn that's where I'm most active I probably some content and stuff and so you can just search for me and unless you're on your LinkedIn and you'll find me. Yeah okay thank you I guess you're thank you so much I'll be in a pleasure. Bye. Thank you for listening it truly means a lot before you go if this conversation opens up something for you I'd love to know what it is feel free to share it with me or on social media this is how stories travel if you enjoy this episode you're already part of this community and this is how you can help us grow you can leave a review on Spotify Apple podcasts or whatever you're listening from you can follow the show or you can turn on the auto downloads so you never miss an episode and you'll be helps more than you know because it helps other people find the stories when they need them the most and it really does take just one of us acting on a crazy idea for changing not only our life but the lives of everyone around us and if you do have a notch a crazy idea running in your mind and you're looking for guidance to turn it into reality follow the show notes to connect with the guest and find more resources from human careers thank you for being here and see you in the next episode