Speaker 1Welcome to the Owner to Owner podcast. I'm Michael Kerr, your host, and I'm also the founder of Kerr Capital, where for 22 years now I've worked alongside business owners. Owner to Owner is a business podcast to empower the owners of Australia's small and medium enterprises. Forget the slick stories of tech titans and unicorns. At Owner to Owner, we get raw and we get real. Every Owner to Owner episode is a personal conversation with another business owner just like you. We explore the everyday struggles they face and the different pathways they tread to success. Practical advice and plenty of one percenters for better returns, less stress, and more enjoyment. You'll find grit, laughs, maybe a few tears, and some hard-won lessons only available from others who've been where you are whatever your stage of ownership. Every Owner has a compelling story to share, so join us to listen and to learn. There's a lot of romanticism about buying a business and leaving corporate, but what's it really like? Can you capitalize on your corporate knowledge and build a business? Elise Heslop is in today. She's done it. We're going to talk about how she did it. We're going to talk about what she would advise other owners to think about before they contemplate doing it, and we might even get into some territory about what she would do differently next time. So big welcome in, Elise, to the Owner to Owner podcast.
Speaker 2Thanks for having me, Michael. Thanks for asking me on.
Speaker 1It's fantastic you taking the time to come on and have a chat. We really appreciate it. Your professional arc is, is four parts. You were in a senior corporate role. You took a sabbatical. You came back from that sabbatical, started a business, which we'll talk about a little bit later. You sold that business and now you're back in corporate. So that's all 360. Was there a through line from where you were to where you are today?
Speaker 2I think probably, probably where I started being, I mean, when I was at uni, I always had a creative side, but really kind of fell into my course at uni with the idea of just doing something that I enjoyed. And I think the marketing side of it has probably been that through line. Thinking about consumer behavior, psychology, that's definitely been something that's interested me. And I've probably applied it to all of my roles along that, along that journey, that not so linear path that you are, that you point out. It's kind of funny hearing it that way. It's, it's not something I've really thought of until you, until you articulated it.
Speaker 1Yeah. I think, I think a lot of people think about an arc that's not linear and, but I don't know how, I don't know how many people actually do it. And this is what's so fascinating about what we're going to chat about today. Was there a trigger when you were in, in your corporate rollback seven, eight, 10 years ago that really, that, that challenged you to say, I've got to do something on my own. And was it tied up with this sabbatical that you took?
Speaker 2Yeah. I don't think there was anything specific when I was in my, my role, you know, making me wonder what life was like outside of, you know, the corporate, the corporate palace. But I think, you know, the, our, our personal journey and, you know, where my husband and I kind of found ourselves in, you know, probably on one of those holidays within your four weeks of leave, drinking too many margaritas going, what else is there to, to life? Like, is this it? Is this the thing that we're, you know, we're, we're looking forward to every year and watch our kids. And I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's how kids grow up, you know, doing this. That was probably the, the catalyst for, for the change. We were both very much aligned. My mum was born in Italy and it's always been something that I've been very connected to. I studied over there through uni and did languages like an offshoot to my commerce degree. So, you know, we wanted to gift that or give that to our kids and give them that experience and get them to see how life is in other parts of the world. So yeah, it was probably while stepping outside of the, day-to-day and having a little bit more time and thought around, you know, what are the things that I'm, that I really value in my life? Does the corporate kind of structure enable me to, to have those things? That's where I really got the opportunity to think about other possibilities and, you know, step outside of that kind of box and the expectations of who I am and the role I have and the title and, and all that stuff. It, it didn't feel as important. Yeah. Yeah. Got me thinking about, yeah, what, what else I could do. There's a few different, there were a few different things that happened. It was kind of a confluence of a multi, like a few different scenarios. And one of them was boredom probably, um, in the middle of winter, you
Speaker 1know, Margarita, Margarita.
Speaker 2Yeah. Not being able to, to get outside much while we were living overseas. And the other was probably seeing how different it was to go from like a house with a backyard and that typical, you know, the Australian dream here to living in a two bedroom flat. And being very happy with less space and thinking about using space differently and how that could maybe imprint over to the Australian market as an idea.
Speaker 1Yeah. So yeah, there was a confluence. Yeah. There was a family connection and then questioning about what do I want to spend my time doing? Yep. How long did you spend in Italy on this sabbatical? Cause you, did you resign and then say whatever, wherever, wherever the wind takes me?
Speaker 2A little bit. Yes. That was the, that was the intention. And you know, the company that I was working at at the time, they were great. They said, you know, we'll accept your resignation, but we want to know that there's always a door open if you want to come back, which I was very lucky to, to have that as an opportunity if I, if I needed to take it or wanted to. And yeah, the, the idea was, so we were away for 12 months. That was the limit to how long we could go away for.
Speaker 1Well, so he, he also, her husband resigned from his,
Speaker 2his role. He actually, so he owns a small business as well. So, and he's been running it for a lot longer than I have. So he, he was fortunate to have a business partner that, you know, they could run it. He could run it partly remotely, but it enabled him a little bit more freedom. He, he went back a couple of times to, to Melbourne to, you know, to make sure everything was still going okay. But his intention was to kind of step back and then step back in, do like the admin-y stuff while he was away and then, and then come back.
Speaker 1But there was a, a higher purpose. You, you both and everyone in the family wanted to get away and, and have this experience that you'd, you'd really, you knew you'd really regret it if you didn't do it.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think so. And I think, you know, the kids were really young. You know, my youngest was four when we left and my elder, well, not much older, they were pretty close together. My eldest was like five and a half. So it just felt like the right age. They, you know, they were small enough to carry, um, and big enough to, to be able to kind of, you know, go on hikes and do the stuff that we wanted to do. And, you know, they were starting kinder and school over there as well. So that, and that, you know, really helped us break into the community and get to know some awesome people.
Speaker 1Yeah. That, that idea of, of living there, not being a tourist. Yeah. The distinction, isn't there, between becoming part of the village or the community and traveling for two weeks and. Yeah. In and out.
Speaker 2Yeah, definitely. I would say, I mean, I felt like after 12 months there, we really felt like we were part of the place. It was a small town. So, you know, and that we chose that intentionally. We didn't want to feel like we were just moving to another city and yeah, we've still got connections and friends over there and the boys who were much older now, they're, you know, they're really close. They're like, they've got more extra families, which is, which is.
Speaker 1That's really cool. And you talked about learning to live in smaller spaces and, and have less, the great Australian dream versus this more, whatever the European, lifestyle is and was. Is that, is that what triggered or, or planted the seed for, for the birth of Ply Room, your, your business?
Speaker 2Yeah, I think it was actually, it did plant the seed. I think I, like a lot of us had been kind of going on this pathway of, you know, what I thought was, you know, the way we should be living and, you know, kids living in the same room until a certain age and then they want their own space. So you renovate and you do the things. I guess, you know, we were fortunate enough to be able to have those choices and be able to make those decisions. But then, you know, seeing it completely differently where, you know, your home isn't where you do all the things, like you're living in your community, you're out in the, you're out in the street, you're doing the walk after dinner, you're going out on the weekends. It just started, yeah, it was that kind of catalyst, like you say, for, yeah, maybe using this differently. There's, there's something in that and maybe I'm not the only one that thinks, thinks like that.
Speaker 1I agree. There's, what is different is you, you've, you've taken that big leap. I think a lot of people do think about it. There are people, I think I'm fascinated by the, what I call the other circular economy, which is people doing the lap around Australia and taking the kids, doing homeschooling. And we saw a gig, a band in Point Lonsdale last weekend and a couple been on the road for three years. And it's all about, they've left their careers, well, their their jobs, their roles, careers, to focus on their music. But just meeting more and more people who are combining, they're getting out of, it's not a holiday, it's an adventure or an immersion into something. But mostly you've got to still figure out how to make a dollar at certain ages. So it's combining of those adventure and also pragmatically, like with your husband, in a business, stayed in the business, just did it differently. And if you force yourself or something so important for the family group, then you find a way.
Speaker 2Yeah, and I think, I mean, it feels a little bit hypocritical to talk about it this way, but industries and the capitalist kind of structure, like we're trained to think about the things that we should have or what life should be like or what we want, and you're constantly fed examples of things that you might, that might appeal to you. And I guess it sounds a bit cheeky coming from someone that, you know, has been in marketing their whole career. But the question of like, how much do you really need? And more isn't necessarily better. It's about, yeah, really finding what, I don't know, what turns you on and kind of what keeps that light alive. Yeah. And it's not always the same thing all the time.
Speaker 1It changes. No, and it does. And it's really hard to pick that thing as well. Like I think there's so much pressure on kids coming out of school to go that pathway. Yeah. Take some time off and go explore. So, you know, do the sabbatical. I would call it a sabbatical, but do that thing. Can you tell us a little bit, so the listeners all get a sense of what Plyroom was, and then we'll talk a little bit about your journey over seven years.
Speaker 2Yep. So Plyroom was a, I guess you'd call it a furniture business, and it started off, I guess, as an import distribution business. I was working with some companies over in Italy, architects and manufacturers in their own right that, you know, wanted to see where this kind of opportunity could go. They'd had demand in the Australian market, but just couldn't facilitate getting it over to Australia. So it was a case of good timing, and they had a need and saw an opportunity as well. And they had adventurous spirits as well. They were kind of open-minded. And, yeah, so that's where it started. And I guess it probably, the focus initially was on children's furniture and, you know, the name Plyroom was all about. It was a play on words with playroom and, you know, Ply and being flexible and adaptable and all those things. Again, kind of the marketer taking herself a bit too seriously with that stuff. Yeah, and then it kind of adapted and evolved, you know. Importing was great, but it did present its own challenges. And I wanted to start, you know, designing my own products and manufacturing in Australia and supporting, you know, Australian manufacturing and local production and that kind of thing. So it progressed to that. We had a website and so I guess, yeah, you call it an e-com business because predominantly, like, I think 80% of our volume came from the online store. But then we also had a showroom. We did, like, a concept store. And then we were also selling to trade architects and interior designers and that kind of thing. So, yeah, we did a lot of different things. But the idea was that it was a values-based business. It was about, you know, I don't know, like, buying once and buying well, buying things that you can change or that have multiple uses or purposes, always kind of using timber as the, I guess, the foundation. And, yeah, it went from there.
Speaker 1Yeah, there was, I think you sounded like you bonded with the manufacturers in Italy because they were about the same kind of values and approach to things. Definitely. Yeah. And I do remember we did some work together and it just reminded me then at four, call it an SME, a small SME. Small business. You had three or four parts of the business. I mean, you know, there was e-commerce and there was design. Yeah. It was, you know, the thing is these small businesses can be absolute beasts because you're adapting. You want to do hustle and make things work and so you add this and you do that and come in and look at it with an objective perspective. And it's not straightforward. There are quite a few moving parts. And really, you're talking about a small business with different business units.
Speaker 2Yeah, and I think that was a challenge when the time came. We'll probably get to this later, but it felt a bit like an octopus with a lot of tentacles and arms and moving parts. And I think I'd built it and shaped it to fit what I wanted to do and try and explore. But when you try and pass that on as an imprint to someone else, it can be pretty overwhelming.
Speaker 1Yeah, it can. And that's where you need a lot of work to say, this is how it all fits together. It's how that works. That's how that bit works. But we will come back to that. With, for you, had seven, was it seven years end to end?
Speaker 2Seven years in the showroom warehouse space and then like three years before that kind of running it smaller. So probably 10 years in total.
Speaker 1Okay. So looking back, what was the first really uncomfortable thing that happened to you? You'd left corporate, you'd gone sabbatical, you started business. What was the first big event, uncomfortable event that you can remember? And how did you, how does it make you feel like, God, what have I got myself into? Or what can I draw on from my past experience to tackle this problem?
Speaker 2Yeah, it's funny. There are so many small events that kind of have the same impact. Probably the first big one was a logistical one, really. It was around, you know, importing and understanding all of the income. And then the second one was, you know, the first big one was, you know, the first big one was, you know, the first big one was, you know, who's liable for the, you know, for the freight when it gets damaged after it's left the warehouse. Just trying to navigate that whole scenario and then having things go wrong. One, you know, once it's actually left Italy. So really kind of trying to get up to speed with how does this affect my business? How does, you know, am I insured for this stuff? Who's liable? Someone getting a bit creative with a forklift at the port. You know, what is that? Like, how does that affect my business? How does that impact, you know, all of the orders that we've got waiting to kind of go out? And then having to kind of deal with that downstream effect of talking to customers who have been waiting and really excited about something special that they've invested their money in and letting them down because it's late because, yeah, mistakes get made. That was probably the biggest or the first one that really comes to mind.
Speaker 1And a lot of that stuff is outside of your control because that span of control is only so, so, so long. But yeah, you've got customers wanting it. And by this time you're a founder, you're a business owner, you've started and you're getting stuff coming at you every day. It's really, that's the beginning of being an owner, isn't it? And how you deal with that one because you get that solved and there'll be something tomorrow or the day after. Yeah. Did you start to feel like a business did help? Did it make you feel like a real business owner?
Speaker 2Look, I think it did in a way. I think all the stumbling blocks and things along the way, it's like that thing where, I don't know, I've been reading, I don't know, I dabble with running. I say I'm not a runner but sometimes I'll go for a jog and my sons will laugh at me because I'm, you know, terrible. But I shouldn't say I'm not a runner because I do run and it's the same with running your business. It's like, yeah, I'm a fan. I'm a founder because I did it and I'm doing it. It's just that change in mentality, I suppose, and it's like, all right, well, you know, what do we do? The royal we being me.
Speaker 1You look around, it's, hang on, it's back to me.
Speaker 2Exactly. That's all right.
Speaker 1Yep. What do I do? Is that just sort of like an evolution for you that it is about how I react, respond, how I deal with this?
Speaker 2Yeah, definitely. And I think also one of the biggest challenges when you're, you know, you don't have a partner. You don't have a partner in business or it's not a group of people. And I know that the double-edged sword, each has their own benefit and downside. But, yeah, it's kind of down to you and, yeah, like you say, how you deal with it. And really, you, there's no option. Like, you kind of just have to get through the obstacle. Otherwise, yeah, what's the other, what's the alternative?
Speaker 1Well, I wonder if that is the point where you're firmly going to embrace being the owner and responsible for everything. As contrasted with being in a role, paid employee, where I think there's more opportunity to share the, there's other worse interpretations of that where it's, you know, blame shifting and whatever. Did you kind of reflect on that at that time or around those times where you thought, well, it'd be a bit easy if I could be back wherever you were?
Speaker 2I don't think I ever wanted to go back to where I was, but I remember at one point I was, I was at a crossroads with the business. I wasn't sure which way to take it. I created this nation and was really focused in the kids' furniture space, but I wanted to do other things and I wanted to branch out and I just really wanted someone to give me the answer. And I remember myself saying that I went to a workshop and I went to the workshop with the intention of walking away with the answers. And, you know, I think that's what we all want sometimes when we do that or go to those things. But yeah, it's, you know, it's down to you. ultimately and there's no wrong answer either because no one's kind of watching you with a big
Speaker 1stick judging it but there was a for you personally it was i've got to do whatever these challenges were i can't find the answer internally it is about me but i'm gonna have to go to this event or go do some training to find the answer that's um that's a big step up isn't it from where you could say well it's somebody else's issue it's it is clearly mine and i'm gonna i'm gonna do if i don't have the necessary skill base or experience or connections i'm gonna find them or i have to find
Speaker 2them yeah and i do think that's a um that's one of the good things about being the the founder i suppose is that you have the opportunity to to branch out and have those conversations and kind of just just figure it out your own way there's a really there's a good freedom that comes with that just problem solving getting getting in the the muck and yeah knowing that someone else isn't going to kind of come and give you the answer or solve it for you yeah yeah and
Speaker 1probably a feeling of it i mean beyond you the people that your family nobody else will even know what you're going through because you're there on your own and your immediate family might but then there's like the care factor or the awareness factor is just so low
Speaker 2yeah that's right that's freedom as well in a way and we're not
Speaker 1you know what we're not trying to that's that's your reality and and the reality of many others who have taken that big bold step but it's um having that internal belief and openness to getting other advice and seeking answers that's that's all part of being a founder or a business owner because the likelihood of it all just being going to plan is pretty pretty yeah you
Speaker 2can plan you can plan for the things that have happened before but you don't know necessarily what's around the corner and sometimes you you can get all the advice and you can plan for the things that have happened before but you don't know that you like but you have to trust and listen to your gut and that's something that i learned as well like sometimes i didn't and um it came back to bite me can
Speaker 1you talk about an example of one
Speaker 2of those um yeah when particularly with the exit um of the business when things didn't feel right they felt a bit off i probably should have called it earlier uh and i and i didn't um so i let it play out cost me you know time money yeah
Speaker 1bit
Speaker 2of heartache along the way yeah yeah stress
Speaker 1yeah you're um at that point were the things that you'd learned or been exposed to in corporate that really might have given you a leg up as a small business owner founder and were there other other learned behaviors that were
Speaker 2counterproductive yeah i think the things that gave me a leg up probably knowing that i couldn't do it all by myself ultimately i mean the first year or two was very much a case of me trying to do all the things being in a storage facility moving boxes that weighed 45 kilos and you know were two meters tall and all like it was a sight i can tell you yeah real realizing slowly that you know you can't actually you can't do all the things if you want to um if you want to move forward and recognizing that before i got to before i got myself in too much of a mess so that was that was probably one thing i got from from corporate i think also yeah keeping your net networks not networks as in you know the networking sense of the word but like staying connected with people that was something that i did miss running my own business i found that you know it got quite lonely being the one that was making the the calls and um i wanted to have really honest conversations with other business owners so you know i had my brother who runs his own business and we had some we've had some pretty great chats over the years my husband as well and then people within the industry and and further further afield i guess the thing that made it or was a bit counterproductive was um this kind of training in a corporate environment that you're not the one that makes all the decisions so you need to get sign off and approval from a number of different individuals and counterparts so i i guess i was i was always looking for that and that it was the right decision before i you know pivoted or made the made the change um and i kind of workshopped my ideas a lot and ultimately it was probably i was probably a little bit um overzealous in that yeah i could have just gone with what was what my gut was telling me
Speaker 1yeah yeah which is kind of have to practice that a bit i think yeah i've seen that and and if you're you know if you're going to be uh you're going to survive in small business you're going to have to keep doing that but there's um that loneliness thing comes up all the time and so you did talk with um other business owners did you do anything formal business owner groups or do you have mentors or or was it what you
Speaker 2described i had i had a coach i suppose someone that i could talk to about this stuff and she gave me some practical like it was kind of a practical relationship where she would kind of keep me accountable with action items and things that i could do to kind of work through some of the challenges i was facing so there was yeah there was definitely her and she was great in terms of you know business networking i'd always kind of just lurked on the the edge um and yeah i didn't really didn't dive in that was probably something that is something that i probably regret because it it could have been the you know could have saved me in a few dark
Speaker 1days yeah yeah yeah there's i mean there's plenty of opportunities around but i i think the ones that seem to keep resonating with other owners is the experience they or the value they get talking to other business owners sometimes you might even talk to it someone else in the industry a potential competitor but there's the experiences seem to be pretty common across all small businesses at the different stages so yeah yeah but there's um there's this imperative every day to do things and you're trading off your time and you're trading off your time and you're trading off your and uh you got to get stuff done and so with ply room what was can you just talk about what was the trigger for you to say i think it's time to move on from this business hi there just a short interruption and a message from kerr capital kerr capital specialize in advising business owners who want to get sale ready or as is increasingly common get approached out of the blue by a i know there'll be plenty of big questions and a lot of uncertainty we're expert at supporting owners in making significant personal and business decisions and then helping create a really strong plan of action if you want to find out more contact us at the kerr capital website and then we can book a 45 minute no obligation discovery call now let's head back to the podcast
Speaker 2yeah i think um i think when the lack of certainty around where i could take it uh superseded like the fear of failure superseded just listening to the coach of the the soccer team uh the scottish soccer team that got led into the world cup and um you know that amazing victory and it was a whole idea that the players went in not with the fear of failure but the anticipation of success and i think it was when the fear of failure kind of overtook the anticipation of success and it wasn't you know it wasn't something that i was going to do i was going to do something that i was going to do something that kind of switched off or on it was like an oven it was an over a period of time that that kind of feeling of not really sure how much more i can do here what else is there for me to give i felt at my capacity and i kind of felt like i'd we were stuck the business and i was stuck
Speaker 1yeah okay yeah and at so through that stretch of running the business you didn't have any more sabbaticals but you maybe had a few trips to italy did you for for work yeah for work
Speaker 2like in terms of
Speaker 1getting away like you did you know at the beginning
Speaker 2no i couldn't get away i felt like i couldn't i felt every holiday i was had my laptop and was working um and i think that was probably i mean part of it is my own kind of cross to bear and that i i did that i didn't feel like i could switch off and i probably could have really yeah and that's where the idea of the lifestyle business it's like it sounds so good on paper but it really depends on if you're setting the boundaries and you are running it like a lifestyle business or if it just becomes
Speaker 1your everything um yeah yeah fueled by all of the stuff that you hear about growing if you're not growing standing still and you want to 10x this and want to add this in and supercharge that it's look at this um questioning i've had a good thing to do it's limit potential limitation is it's usually defined by an exit at the end of this process and it's got to be if you want to do that you absolutely want to be out you go do that but it can also be other exits it can be an exit where the owner kind of pulls the business back to something that's really like a lifestyle business or much more manageable or you you bring in a partner or you bring in a manager i mean there's there are other endpoints or endgames that And it's because it does seem very binary where you're in there busy, you want to do something else because you're just done with this, but those businesses can be different beasts. And like with your husband taking some time out, really forcing yourself to how else can I continue to do both, but having a life and having a business, but do it differently in
Speaker 2different ratios. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I don't think it was something I thought about enough. I thought about exit as in, I mean, I fantasized about closing the doors and sent, I drafted the email to say, you know, after 10 years, we're closing our doors. Thank you, everybody. We're bowing out.
Speaker 1Have you still got that email, by the way?
Speaker 2Probably somewhere. Yeah, I reckon I do.
Speaker 1You should frame that.
Speaker 2Yeah, it was very much that case. It's like, you know, you close the doors or you sell. Yeah. The idea of, I mean, interestingly, I think I did the scale down, get it to a point where it was a lifestyle business after I decided that I was out, after the failed sales kind of, or the sales of the business kind of didn't go according to plan. I was like, I don't think I've got it in me to go another round or to keep it going.
Speaker 1So you had a, like you went fairway down the path with a buyer, unbundled.
Speaker 2Unraveled. Twice. Twice. So the first time, so I think we spoke. It was quite a few years ago when you gave me some really great advice and got me thinking about how to do it. And I guess the pitfalls of, you know, the model in the Australian small business market. And I thought, oh gosh, I don't know if I've, if I'm expert enough in this space or good enough negotiated to be the one to champion my own business and go out and pitch to my competitors. So I'm going to go down the broker route. I went down the broker route. Great person. And really got on well with this. With this guy. And then for whatever reason, he left the business and then I was given someone else. We found a buyer, seemed really good, but then COVID hit and she got cold feet. So then we were back in kind of full sprint mode because COVID, you know, our business was one of the lucky ones where COVID actually got things really moving beyond the initial, you know, shit. We, we're not going to have anything for six months because people in Italy are, you know, dropping dead, you know, like keeping some perspective. Then, so that kind of continued for a while for a few more years and I kind of got that stuck feeling again. And I'm like, well, the business is actually in a really good place profit wise. I feel like we're, we've kind of got our octopus arms working. We know what to dial up, what to dial down. We've got our processes. We've spent the time. I mean, that's the other thing that comes from corporate, like especially GE, you, you get your processes right. You're fine. So everyone knew what they were doing. And yeah, so went back, went out to, to kind of market again, the broker sphere and got to, yes, we're in, we just need to sign the contract of sale and it'll all be done. So I went away on holiday thinking, oh my gosh, it's happening and came back and these people had just vanished. So I don't really know what happened there. It was just one of those really unfortunate situations where. Um, yeah, I should have, I, I saw a little bit like felt uneasy at certain points in time and I didn't, didn't read it loud enough. So yeah, that's what happened.
Speaker 1What did you have to go on at that point? Was it like a trail of emails and calls to say, we want to do this? We'll get a contract.
Speaker 2Yeah. So we had lawyers talking to lawyers.
Speaker 1So you were driving, you were, you were starting to form and create a contract.
Speaker 2Yep. We had agreement. In principle, we had emails, you know, with the, with the intended offer and, you know, but the contract of sale hadn't been signed and it was just stalling going on and yeah, it, it just fell over.
Speaker 1So. Yeah, it's, it's brutal because the sale's gone and I'll not tell you anything you don't know, but it is, the sale's gone. So you gotta, you gotta brush yourself off and go back to the business again because you know, it's as, as damaging and as stressful as it is. There was. There's a business to continue and it's mighty, mighty hard.
Speaker 2Yeah. And I think that's, that was the point at which I, you know, carried on for a few more months and I just thought, I think it's time to wrap it up. I can't see how, where I'm going to take this. So I scaled back. Yeah, made some decisions around that. Didn't renew the lease of our warehouse. Closed down the import side of the business and it was all local manufacturer made to order. Yeah. Working really closely with my manufacturer who was just down the road, which was great. And we talked about them packaging product rather than me doing it and my team doing it. So it was all kind of just housed on site for them and came to an agreement in that way. And yeah, it slowly kind of transitioned to them kind of managing all of the logistics, them being there for career pickups and drop-offs and stuff. So it kind of went from this octopus to just a, well, one trick pony in a way. It was a lot simpler.
Speaker 1Yeah. And they became, they bought it. They became the natural buyer really, didn't they? Because you were so interlinked and they could see inside of the business and I'm assuming they had a manufacturing capability and with your business, got this brand and customer base and designs and e-commerce. But was it, are you still doing any e-commerce at that?
Speaker 2Yeah. So it was still. We were still selling through the website and through trade interior designers and they also had a really good network because they also have an architecture arm of their business. They're very, very good at what they do. Yeah. So like you say, it was a natural fit.
Speaker 1You hinted at it early. The model for buying and selling businesses is pretty crude and advertising and waiting and hoping that there's the right buyer out there. A lot of sales happen like this, call it off market, but it's where there's already an understanding of what the respective businesses do well or where they're lacking. So it becomes, it might become a manufacturing alliance or joint venture to start with or a distribution thing in services. And then it's like really, you know, you're kind of just getting closer all the time to becoming part of that business.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think, I think there's definitely. You know, that the, the dating model approach, like with, you know, you kind of, you put your profile out there and you, it's a numbers game versus relationships through introductions or knowing the brother of your best friend or whatever it is. That's where the trust comes and, you know, you, yeah, you kind of, you can see under the hood and appreciate. And I think, yeah, that what you just said with that brokerage. Model there, there is a bit of a, I did think that I could articulate the value of the brand and the customer base because I saw it and the way that it was, the way that that industry works, I suppose, is that it has to be about showing the multiplier and validating the multiplier based on the P&L and the balance sheet. And, you know, you can't really, sometimes you can't really measure brand and loyalty and all of those things. And I think that was one key learning for me.
Speaker 1I think, yeah, the limit, it's another one of the limitations that you've got, you've got to have a formula for valuing your business, but there are, it doesn't account for the fact that not every buyer will, will view the business the same because they've got a different set of challenges and it can be worth more or less than that formula. I'm okay. You start with a formula, a bit of a baseline, you get some market data, but when you, when you test the market thoroughly, you will often see that different buyers will, if you don't just post the price. And say, look, it's for sale for a million bucks. I mean, as soon as you do that, unless it's an incredibly compelling business, which doesn't happen very often, there might be a bit of competitive tension that goes up. More often it's like, well, it's a start point. Let's, you know, work our way down and all the gains come. But if you, if you, I had Craig West from Succession Plus on last week and we're talking about this very thing and it's really very important to thoroughly prepare so that you can, you can almost, you know, your business, but you can almost see. How it fits inside of other businesses, competitors or industry players. And if you, that's another layer of thinking about your business is how it fits in there because that's when the formula will be different or the value.
Speaker 2Yeah, you're right. I think it's just dawned on me that, you know, the packaging up of the business and the marketing of the business is really critical and knowing your, knowing your target market of who could potentially want it. And the scattergun approach is what I employed and it didn't. It didn't work. Surprise, surprise. It doesn't work.
Speaker 1Well, it works very occasionally. Yeah. So you've, you've sold that business. You've gone back to corporate 12 months. How long have you been back?
Speaker 2Yeah, about 18 months now.
Speaker 1Yeah. Okay. Do you just want to tell us a little bit about the role you're in now and what you're doing? Because it is directly related to small businesses and I, I'd like to hear a little bit about that. What's the company name?
Speaker 2So the company's called Early Pay and I run the marketing team. here. So we're basically Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane. We've been around in various iterations for about 25 years now, coming up to our 25-year anniversary. We're very much about working capital and cashflow for small businesses. Unlike your kind of typical bank model that relies on property security, it's very much looking at your balance sheet and your performance of your debtors, your customers, your business customers, and using that as the way to fund your growth or using the assets that you have in your business, like equipment to raise capital for new opportunities or dealing with things when things get hard.
Speaker 1Excellent. Yeah. So it really goes to the heart of looking beyond the big four and the traditional way of doing things to saying you do have value in your business. So it's proof you're doing okay when you've got some debtors and some problems. But you can leverage them more easily now.
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's something, I mean, I didn't really know about it as an option when I was running my business, but it's very much an option for B2B businesses. And it's something that unlike, you know, your typical, your loan amount, that's your kind of your one and done, and you've got to pay it down. You've got the opportunity to, rather than getting just one off injection of cash, you can kind of ebb and flow as your business grows and you've got the those kind of cashflow cycles in your business that are pretty natural.
Speaker 1Yeah. So yeah, and with all the analytics around from zero management accounting software and e-commerce software, you can really, you know, if you want to, you can really dive deeply into a business beyond what happened in last year's financial statements.
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly. That's a
Speaker 1big part of it. So tell us what the website is for early pay.
Speaker 2Yeah. So it's earlypay.com.au and, yeah, come have a chat with us direct, or if you've got a, you know, commercial broker, always have a chat with them as well.
Speaker 1Okay. Yeah. Good. I'm glad we got that in because it's really, it does also, it reminds me of that you're back working with other small businesses. So that's pretty cool. Do you feel like a different kind of senior executive in bringing that experience? Is that part of the role you took and why they were, why you ended up where you ended up?
Speaker 2Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1Small business experience, which is so rich.
Speaker 2I was fortunate to have a business that saw that value. I didn't quite know where I fitted after Plyroom and moving on from Plyroom and took quite a bit of time to figure out, you know, marketing is still very much what I love and what I do, but what's the fit and where, where are my skills best just employed? I think, you know, being able to bring that experience, but also see the human side of business because business is, I mean, it's, still people at the end of the day. Yeah. That, that's how we're kind of building our approach to, to marketing as well.
Speaker 1Yeah. Well, it, I mean, working capital for business, for small business is one of the big challenges. It's okay if you want to borrow a hundred million, but if you want to borrow half a million, it's challenging.
Speaker 2Yeah. And also, I mean, just thinking about your, thinking about your assets differently, it's not, doesn't always need to be property. And that's the thing that's really intrinsic to the Australian market. And it's not like that in Europe or the US. You know, you've got assets in your debtor's ledger, your accounts receivable, you've got assets in your equipment or whatever, but that's the stuff I never really thought about or knew. Yeah. I always thought that borrowing meant that if you need to borrow, something's not working, whereas, and that's where I would get those sticking points of, you know, I feel like we're growing, but I can't, I don't know how to make it happen. So that was, that was probably just more of a, a learning for me.
Speaker 1Close the loop for other corporate professionals who are sitting around, maybe they're in Italy, maybe somewhere else in there. It's, it's, there's something eating away at them. What would your advice be to them about launching or buying an established small business?
Speaker 2I think, um, something I heard the other day, it's like, you know, just start to get started. Doesn't have to be perfect. You don't have to do the course or, um, all the things to be ready. It doesn't all have to be perfect. You can iterate, find, that's kind of the fun bit. That's where the freedom is. And, you know, I think it's, it's, it's, it's, it's enjoy that. Cause it's kind of like playing in business. You just don't want to ignore the lessons. Make sure that you, um, that you really listen hard to the lessons. I think also find your business tribe. So find your people and that might change over time. That's something that's yeah. Mental health in, in small businesses is, well, small business is tough. So I think it's important to think about how you're going to look after yourself when you don't have the water cooler chat or, you know, the virtual Christmas parties or whatever. It might be. And one thing that really, I guess, talks to my experience, I kind of came in to a new industry, learnt all the things along the way. I think there's value in maybe learning from a business that's already been doing what they do rather than starting from scratch, but don't compare your beginning to someone else's middle. Like you can spend so much time and energy looking sideways and, you know, thinking that what they're doing is better or, but you just don't know what's you kind of need to find your niche and, and stick to it.
Speaker 1Yeah. Back yourself. Yeah, back yourself. Trust your instinct. I think you, you've mentioned that a few times and, and, um, it was there. You just got to coach it out and be confident in that. Yeah. It's a bit of a loaded question. Some point down later on, would you, uh, consider another business? You've got exposure to small business through the family already. So maybe that's, you've got the right mix.
Speaker 2I think we'll get the kids through school. But, you know, never say never. I think if it, if I was going to go down a small business path again, it would probably, probably, probably be in a service based industry rather than something that's really kind of product and legit, like big bulky goods, warehousing, all the things. Yeah. Try something different, but also in an area that I'm familiar with, I think it's.
Speaker 1Right. Okay. Yeah. Cause it's, it really, you started with a passion and an interest, but it wasn't really a domain area of expertise and, and not without its complexity, manufacturing and importing and building a website and, you know, all that stuff. So it's a lot easier now, but building a website, that is. Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah. I think, um, I think a lot of things are a lot easier, but you know, so they're also more complex. So yeah, trying to work out the right way to go and who to use or how to do it is, um, that brings up its own challenges, which, you know, when I started, we had Instagram and it was all based on chronological stuff and meta hadn't messed with algorithms and monetized the crap out of it. So it's a very different landscape now.
Speaker 1Yeah, indeed. All right. Um, uh, two, two final questions. Sabbaticals. Yes. A good idea for everybody or for most people.
Speaker 2Yeah, I would, I would say so. Um, it doesn't have to be, you don't have to pack up your life and move to Italy for a year. You know, it can obviously be a lot smaller and. Simpler and easier, I think, but yeah, just getting the headspace, getting out of the bubble, thinking about what you really value and appreciate. I, I can't see any downside to that
Speaker 1really. Yeah. I hear you and I agree with you. Final question. If you were plucked to head up the Australian federal small business department, what would your top few priorities be for building a stable, resilient, successful SME economy?
Speaker 2Um, yeah, it's one thing to think, oh, it's broken. It's another thing to think, how would you fix it? Isn't it? I think a few things that, you know, the, we were reading or talking the other day about the, the business council of Australia, the ratings for each state and how they, how they are to, to have a small business. And unfortunately I think Victoria came, came last. And I think it comes down to like regulation and taxes and the invisible taxes. Um, I think standardizing that across the country would be a really good move. I don't, I don't see why they're different for different states. I can understand maybe different approaches to different industries, but yeah, I think standardize and use best practice, use what's working to drive productivity and, you know, confidence in the market. That would be one thing. Yeah. And simplifying it. Uh, I think, you know, if I may be so bold as to suggest a lower company tax rate for companies, you know, not just companies under 50 million, but maybe even lower for the ones that are under 10 million, because it's a very, very different landscape. And I think you'll find that the majority of businesses are in that much smaller bracket. Yeah. I think, yeah. Evening out the playing field with, with taxes and, um, and simplifying that and probably cause I'm biased, but I think really supporting the industries that we want to see more of in Australia, you know, manufacturing, it's so hard to do manufacturing in Australia, thinking about how we actually support those businesses, whether it's, I don't know if they're, if they're lucky enough to be able to buy their property land tax concessions or something. So they're not penalized for going out and having a go on, you know, growing as well.
Speaker 1Yeah. Well, you know, COVID and our, uh, capacity for manufacturing was lack of, was exposed big time. So yeah. And I see, um, been a reduction in funding at Saro and I think manufacturing, et cetera, was one of the areas that got most heavily hit. I could be wrong, but yeah, it's, it's not, um, not healthy. No. Thank you so much for sharing your experience, Lisa. what it's like to do what a lot of people think about and you've gone full circle. So I wish you well in your new role, Aideen Nansin, and thanks so much for sharing openly with us today. It's been greatly appreciated.
Speaker 2No, of course. Thanks for having me on and getting me to think back and reflect on, yeah, quite a ride.
Speaker 1Quite a ride, yeah. All right, Elise, thanks so much for your time.
Speaker 2Thank you. Thanks, Michael. I look forward to getting in touch. Likewise. See you.
Speaker 1So thank you very much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Owner to Owner and got some helpful advice and maybe some more clarity on how to make your business work better for you. To subscribe or to listen back or to access any of the resources or information we talked about in this video, head over to the website owner2ownerpodcast.com.au or you can search up Owner to Owner Podcast on your favourite pod player. If this episode or the podcast generally is really helpful, I'd love it if you could leave me a like, a rating or a review, but even more than that, I'd love it if you could share it with another business owner. There's a new episode out every couple of weeks. I'll catch you then. Bye.
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