From Chaos to Creativity: How the Anti-Planner Empowers ADHD Adults to Thrive with Dani Donovan

Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Neural Divergent Connection. You ever sit there knowing exactly what you need to do and still can't start? That's where we're going today, not just ADHD as a concept, but the real moments, stuck, overwhelmed, unmotivated, and the exercises Danny uses to actually help you move through them. So sit back, relax, and grab your favorite beverage, and let's learn more about these exercises. See you there everybody. Today I'm joined with my good friend Danny Donovan. Welcome back Danny. Thank you so much for having me back excited to be here. So let's get started. Can you paint the moment someone realizes they're stuck? Like they want to move but just can't? Oh my god. I think so. So there's this ADHD comic that I made a long time ago that is called like ADHD paralysis and it's got this guy on a couch and he's playing a switch and the room around him is all messy and it says like what it looks like and it says whatever I don't care if it's clean. You know, and he's like smiling and then it says how it feels and underneath it, there's like this gigantic wall of text behind him that's got like, okay, I should clean, like I really should clean up it's saying I'm going to do it for forever. I need to do it. I need to do it. Why isn't my body moving? Why just get up? It's not that hard. Your parents house is clean. Maybe I'll download an app. No, last time I downloaded an app, I forgot to cancel it and I only did it for three days or like what if I do, you know, and it's got this whole intermonologue about trying to use shame as a motivator, trying to to compare yourself to other people thinking about the different ways in which you failed in the past and getting really hung up in that. But but and his face looks all guilty and he's like kind of looking around at all the stuff. It's like, it's not that I don't notice that it needs to be done. I know it needs to be done and I'm thinking all the time about how things need to be done and I don't do them and that's just guilt is just guilt and shame about this difference between like being right shame is like the difference between who you're being and who you want to be. And so thinking about it like that that feeling stuck is that sort of like paralysis feeling of I know truly like what the book is about is like, I know what I need to do by I can't get myself to do it. No, what's actually happening in the ADHD brain in that moment? Oh, from like a scientific perspective, I think that I'm going to mess this up. Are there stuff that happens with your like particular activating system of your brain and like what you know what you choose to pay attention to? But I think that the like initiation, like task initiation is the difficult thing with stuck right where you don't have that sort of like inertia going for you yet. A lot of times once we get started, it's so much easier because we've just sort of been like pushed, you know, and we can keep sometimes people finishing the things is difficult. But like the middle part where I've gotten started and I'm going, but I think as far as what's going on in our ADHD brains, it's the like can't start or can't stop. There's like no one between. Because we know from the outside it looks like procrastination, but it's not that simple is it? Ah, no. Anybody who's procrastinating, there's like, there is a reason and that reason is not they're lazy. Is there a specific anti-planar exercise you love for that? For a feeling stuck? Yeah. Oh, there's a lot of favorite ones I have in this stuck section. And so some of them are ones that are things that like I did not come up with. So like body doubling is something that's very, very helpful for me provided, which is where you, you know, do work and someone else is doing independent work and you don't talk to each other. And so for me, a lot of times that looks like even people on my team will have like body doubling sessions where we'll have a little, you know, 30, 40 minute meeting at the beginning to go over stuff. And then we will put ourselves on mute and work. And then if somebody like needs something, you know, they can kind of like unmute and ask about it. And I'm like, they're in that moment. I've now got like dedicated time to like work on things. But that's, I mean, that's one of the most common ones. I think that that people in this community are already kind of used to ones for what I'm feeling stuck in the stuck section. So I've got difficulty getting started in decisive perfectionistic and distracted and being perfectionistic is for sure one of the top ways in which I am constantly finding myself getting stuck. And so doing things like speed runs is really helpful for me, which is where I will pick. So like for example, when I was, I had a talk that I needed to write that I kept putting off writing because it was like, this is really intimidating. I've got a whole, I want to do a good job. But what I ended up doing was figuring out, okay, well, I've got five sections of this talk that I'm giving. And I'm going to set a timer for, you know, 10 minutes. And I'm only going to let myself work on each section for 10 minutes at a time. And once the timer goes off, I have to move to the next section. It doesn't matter how far I got. And so I would like do that and get to the, so it like forces that like deadline that that I think motivates so many of us would we've got like a fire under our butt, we can actually go. And so then I move on to the next section and then I get to the end and it's like, okay, now I can go back and kind of like refine. And I set those timers again. And I know that I got through that task in like one fourth of the time that it normally would have taken me because I set little mini deadlines for myself with like a ticking clock, which forced me to be efficient. But then you also get to see progress to where you're not like stuck on perfecting this one section for until it's done and then move on to the next section and work until this section is perfect. Being able to move through the whole thing has that like feeling of progress. And I think that that feeling of progress is really important to feeling unstuck. It's easier to come back and finesse things than it is to like finesse on the first goal around. I mean, one of the things I love that you did is you asked the US to reader, what are you feeling? You bring it back to them because then they can go look deep into themselves and I'm like, okay, what is really the problem? Yeah. What is the root cause because I can't if you can't find the resistance, you can't pick the right tool. And I love that because then you making them think, okay, where do I go? Yeah, I guess I should also say so for anybody who's listening who may not be familiar, I created a toolbox for adults called the anti planner, how to get shit done when you don't feel like it. But it is broken up by yeah, like we're talking about by sections of how you are feeling in that moment. So it's like I'm trying to get this thing done. What is it that's getting in the way? I'm feeling overwhelmed. So you go to the overwhelm section and figure out what kind of overwhelmed you're feeling and then there are like strategies and activities. No, I just realized I didn't really like give any context for what it is we're talking about. Now, one of my favorite exercises for stuck is the music one because who doesn't have a playlist or who doesn't have an album on their phone where they can go, okay, this album is 45 minutes long. Let's get let's do something within this time limit. And once it's done, it's done. And you know exactly where it's at like it's one where I can time I have that for my like morning makeup routine, like getting ready in the morning. I've been I often will find like a playlist or an album right now currently like we're listening to the husband hotel season two soundtrack and it's like exactly 45 minutes. And it's also like gives me the ability to like learn the words because I'm learning, you know, doing the thing over and over again. And I can tell what's fairly funny is I can tell if I'm like running behind by what song is on when I'm on which step. And so it's pretty, pretty fun and interesting as well as I've got this like speed declutter one that I've had for since like 2015. It has like, oh, I think it's like under 15 minutes. It's like under 15 minutes long. And so you know, I'm not going to be cleaning forever. This is like if you think about it as a speed declutter that I'm automatically also trying to make myself go fast versus sometimes I like la di da di da di da like take my time. And that can really kind of prevent that from happening. So you get more done in a shorter amount of time. No, can you walk me through how that would look like in real life? Like if I'm just sitting here staring at my laptop. And you want to speak clean or. Yeah, I'm stuck. Oh, get unstuck. Yeah, if you're staring at your laptop and is the lap to are you staring at your laptop and you need to do something on your laptop. Yeah, with the I've got to get a deadline met. Okay, so I've got I forget what is the what is the is this is. No, this is a no-cussing podcast or I guess I said you can cut all your want. Okay cool. I have I have a thing That's not in the anti planner that I do a lot and I've been doing more and more recently and it definitely it works It works every time is I've got this little beat that I do in my head And I just like underneath my breath whisper. I'm like I can do it. I can fucking do it. I can do it I can do it. I can do it. I can do it. I can do it. I can do it and I just will just like do that as as I'm opening up the Tag like the tab to go to the spreadsheet that I need to go like mess in it's like what I'm in the middle of a show mom Come on, oh you're good. Um, you're okay But I My brain is like an etch of sketch Oh, oh, yeah, so I'll I'll pretty much be doing that little mantra like over and over again while I get myself in until I am In the exact like position With the things that I need to like do the thing Um, and now I'm there The spreadsheet is open and I have like hyped myself up enough that like I can't have said that that many times and then not start and And like be where I need to be and then just be like, ugh, no right because I have used my own Like pump up I guess to to get myself in the headspace where then like I start to believe it Um, and so for me that can be this like seriously. Let's get going phrase because I only I and again I like I think the thing for me with strategies is The ones that work I choose sparingly so that they work every time because it is very challenging And I think that that's probably one of the bigger obstacles is like if something was working for you And it does and it stops working. What do I do? Right? Um, because now I don't want to try it because the last time I did it Didn't work and why would I do something if it's not gonna work? Um, and versus seeing it as like okay, well, we're gonna retire that for a little while We're gonna find something new we're gonna find a new strategy. That's fun and interesting and Engaging and then we can come back to this and it will seem new again. Yeah, you know, yeah That's almost like the feeling of coming back to something with fresh eyes is Leave when you're exhausted come back when you're feeling fresher because it'll feel brand new again It's like flavor fatigue It's like I'm eating this thing. It was so delicious and now I've been eating it for so long. It doesn't taste good And it doesn't I don't read doesn't register I guess anymore and so I think that we get the same thing as sort of like strategy fatigue Yeah It's almost like a doggy in the same thing over and over and over again and then like no, I don't like this anymore I want something new yeah, yeah, so I mean that's my brain in general is just like I don't want this anymore I want something new and so that was the idea behind the anti-planar was that like Lean into that right what if your system isn't trying to to nail down one system that's gonna work Forever one of your system is having a hundred systems And so I think that you got to set out with the plan that the plan is not sticking with something forever Yeah, um and and if you do it like that then it decreases the shame it decreases a lot of these feelings of Being a failure or you know being a fucker for somebody who can't stick with anything Oh, I just like that's one of the things that people he I hear all the time is I Quit everything I start You know, so why should I bother trying why should I waste more money on something that I'm just gonna quit and That's one of the things that I like about that anti-planar is that it unlike a planner It does not have an expiration date and I told people I make you can lose this for two years I've got people who bought this during pre-orders four years ago and I And I hear from them in the comments where I'm like hey, we're gonna open we're gonna open this together because it comes with like a belly band on it And I'm like if yours is still in this rink rap go get it Pause this video and like go get it and like um, you know I'm like unwrapped it. It's like a little body doubling unwrapping thing and there are people who are like I've had this book for four years and I had not unwrapped it until now and I just looked in it. It's so so cool But it's still good, right? It's still it's not this thing that's gonna set you up for failure because if you don't use it By the December 31st now it's dead to you. It's it is truly wasted money kind of thing I mean, I think part of the problem and that's what leads into the next Preception is a lot of people get overwhelmed and they they look at a project and they think oh god I have so much on my plate. What do I do and one of my favorite things you have is an exercise it breaks things down to smaller parts And people don't think that That take a big project and break it down because It will make it simplified and will make it easier for you to get chunks out done to smaller more Ignorable tasks That's that's that's one of my favorite comics um and but the thing that was actually really interesting about the how to break down tasks um activity in the book is that it's one of the last ones that got added Because my husband Um, he was sort of my little like guinea pig on some of these things because he's got ADHD also and so um being able to Uh ask him about what he struggles with so I had the different sections I had like for you know stuck overwhelmed unmotivated organized and discouraged I had like a note on my phone that was like how does this make you feel? You're like how do you feel when you stuck? What is the time that you've been stuck? What do you know? I pretty much had the same formula but like sub out the different emotions um And then I answered it myself and then I had him answer it just to like see kind of what the differences are in how our experiences Pan out and with overwhelmed he had made a comment about how everybody says oh just break things and just you know break things down Because I don't know how to do that. I didn't learn how to do that I'd you you can say those words But I don't know what that means and so I made a spread and initially the spread was like long how to break down like laundry And I may spend so much time making this like very Complex but like well-designed graphic on how to break down laundry But the problem of using laundry is everybody does laundry different Other people think people you know if you got for us a lot of times it's just like uh sorting is optional We'll take that risk. It is what it is you know the time the time that you save Will pay for whatever clothes you accidentally mess up right and that doesn't happen so often but like for me For me I for me when I do laundry it starts and like that's it yeah exactly Um, and so usually that's me too. I don't own enough red clothing to like put the reds in it's something and so but I've got You know, I had it like this and it broke it down and he goes I said does this yeah Structions I was like how does this feel and he looked at it and he goes This is this is overwhelming like this is the overall obstruction but like looking at this is overwhelming and I go If he goes like but no, it's really well. It's like keep it keep it and I go if I made this for you If you think this is overwhelming, I'm not doing my job right. I need to remake this and so I remade it and and kind of had this this the example was creating The how to break down tasks spread And so you know, I've got the like not great of you know instructions page example and then the like better where it kind of breaks those down a little bit more And then the best and it's got like sub tasks, you know tasks and sub tasks and being able to show people an example That is right in front of them That that has undoubtedly like the same number, you know kind of number of steps and Kind of having that example. I think it's really important and so being able to Show people what breaking down tasks looks like rather than just telling them break down your task I mean, that's so true people don't know how to break down a task when you look at it and then when you show them and they're like oh That's how you do it and then it all the kind of registers in their head Yeah, because it's like even the little graphic. I made where it's like, you know project turns into let's even just say it Just has two parts Well, it's project turns into part one and part two and then one turns into one A and one B and two turns into two A and two B And so being able to see how those pieces sort of like fit into a hole I love breaking down tasks, but I will say that one of the things on there is If you made if you broke it all the way down into the like tiniest tiniest steps um where uh even what did my ADHD coach was like break it down so then like an alien couldn't even mess it up I if they came down, but now I've got a giant list and that's overwhelming I've now overwhelmed myself by not having a big test, but now I have too many tiny tasks And so that's what I like to use Thing like project management software like either notion or to do is to have you that you can collapse things To where I can only look I'm only looking at the one little piece that I'm looking at right now or a lot of times I will also use note cards and I will Um have the little steps for each one on the back of a note card And then I'll just have just that note card out because I will say that it's easy to get overwhelmed by How many steps you now have after you broken it down? I mean that's why when I was seeing a life coach And I was writing he's like He's like you know Just write three right things right three things down analyst list. And if you accomplish one of them, remove it from the list. If you don't accomplish it, if you don't, if you don't remove it, that day, go back to it the next day. And then once you get rid of the three, add three more and three more each day. But don't feel bad that you didn't remove one. It's just those three things that makes things simpler. I had a three by three grid that I did as a, as me, my husband and this girl that I met on the ADHD, like subreddit back in. God, this was like 2016. Maybe maybe 2017. And I had a Google spreadsheet that I made that was like through, it was the three by three. So it was like the three of us. And it was each of us had, it had three days. So like today's Wednesday. So it would have Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. And it would have three spots on each thing. And every day, it was like, I have three things I'm going to get done today. And I cross those off, anything that on that list that did not get crossed off, go has to go to the next day. And then by the end of the week, we pretty much got little assigned scores for it. Like if you did all nine of your tasks, you got a score of nine. If you moved stuff, oh, if you moved one thing over, now you're only going to get eight because you repeated one of the tasks, right? And so we sort of ended up in a spot where you like, could it add more to your plate? Like you said, it until you get rid of the other things. But the thing I also liked about it beyond just having three, only three spots to do is that I focused on three days at a time versus a lot of stuff where it's like, we're looking at a whole week or looking at a month or, you know, we're looking at how to, how to be consistent because I got a new leaf every three days. I know for a lot of us, like that new leaf is, is important. And so for me, like I, a lot of people hate Mondays. I like Mondays. I like Mondays because Mondays feel like the January 1st of the week. You know, every, I was like, I know I screwed up last week, but this week is different. And so like, that's me on Mondays. Now if someone's listening right now in their brain feels like they have 20 tabs open, what's the first step? What's step one? Save that. So I will say that the first step as with the actual tab, this is the answer to both things, which is, what do I do if I actually have, you know, tons and tons of tabs open, which is to go through and save the ones that are important. And so if you've got tons of things in your brain, it's like, Oh, I need to do this. I needed to do this. I needed to do this. Write it down, like write it physically on a piece of paper and or or on a note. I just like brained up every single thing that's rumbling around in your head so that you don't have to worry that you're going to forget it. And that it exists somewhere that you can come back and look at it if you need to. And then from that list, you pick like two things, pick like two things from that list. And those are the focus. And then like you said, you can always kind of come back from this like bank of stuff. And honestly, like even the David Allen like getting things done, where he's got like a someday maybe list. So a lot of times what I'll do is I'll have like a someday maybe the way that I've categorized some of my to do this where I've got like easy wins. So if I let's say I'd I'd brained up out a bulleted list of everything I could possibly think of needing to do. And then you could put them kind of drag them into buckets of like easy wins. I have one that says lizard brain is sabotaging you, which is pretty much like this isn't going to be as hard as you think it is. It's basically your brain, your brain talking bad to you thing. Yeah. All these negative things and people need to learn how to shake it. Yeah. And having something with my to do list above it that says this won't be as painful as you think it is. Like is a good reminder that I need sometimes, which is like your lizard brain is sabotaging you. And then I've got maybe someday and so much of this stuff that like isn't actually important can get grabbed and put down there in a place that's like I'm it's there if I need it. But it takes it away from the main list. And that's the most important thing. I think rather even than just being like, Oh, pick two things. It's like get rid of all the stuff that's optional. Anything that's optional, take it off your list and just look at the not optional list. I mean, one of the greatest stories I remember was I went to a job transition market research and the thing they they go, Okay, we want we want all of you to go up against the wall right down on the piece of paper, all your jobs that you had. I'm looking around. People have 20 to 30 different jobs are in that I have two, maybe three and I call a woman over I'm like, I only have three. These people have 20. Am I doing am I doing it right? Am I she like, have you kept that job long enough? I'm like, your last job. I'm like, yeah, she like, then you're in the right place. And I'm thinking, why are these people with 20 to 30 jobs? Why are they jumping from job to job? And I think that that's that's my there's there's a couple. I mean, I don't know if that's an actual question or not or hypothetical. I was like, I have an answer to that. It has nothing to do with any of this. No, no, it doesn't, but I believe I personally think it's a dopamine thing. They just use interest and they move on. There's a lot of people who also get, especially people with ADHD where we have a harder time keeping, keeping jobs because it's like, Oh, I'm over sleeping or I'm missing deadlines or I'm, you know, I haven't had a two problem because I've got authority issues or whatever the case may be, but a lot of it is or, you know, for some people, it's like, I want to have jobs because that's how you make more money. And we, you know, versus trying to get a promotion or a raise at the place that you currently are. And so, but then it comes comes back to, you know, sometimes be a difficult situation. If you're really wanting to work at another employers and it's like, well, why would we hire you? You keep job hopping. So that can be a challenge too. But that leads us to the next section of being on motivating. I mean, people here are motivated and they think, Lazy, what's the truth behind that for ADHD brains? Being unmotivated, I think for ADHD brains specifically is that like, this is not engaging enough for me to care. This is not, it might be important, but I don't want to. It's the don't want to because I was like, you could be stuck on things that you do want to do. Like, I love writing talks, but like, I could still be stuck wanting to do the thing and not doing the thing. Cleaning is, like, I am never, I do not enjoy cleaning. I enjoy the like, before and after of like a destroyed tornado room turning into like a lovely place to be for the, you know, two weeks that it stays halfway okay. And then it gets destroyed again. But I'll say that like, doing dishes, I will never like doing, right? And, and doing laundry, but there's also just this like waiting to feel like it aspect that happens where it's like, I want the perfect conditions to start. I need to do this thing outside, but it's too human out. So I'll like rationalize and find all of these reasons why not to do something. And then the last kind of section where I've got like lacking accountability of, of no one's going to know if I don't do this thing. This thing is technically optional. I'm not going to get in trouble. Therefore, I can put it off indefinitely because like the only per or the only person that's getting, you know, uh, that yeah, that's going to know is me because being like, there aren't immediate consequences to this, to this. So I therefore I can keep procrastinating. I think is common. And then the uninspired section is the last one where, um, there's, I liked doing this, but I lost my steam. And now I can't get myself to do it again, which I think is, is a common problem because it's not even like, I'm not interested in this. And I hate it. It's, I was and I, and I'm not anymore. And so all of these boil down to essentially like having, was it having a dead battery and you need like a spark. And so for, for that kind of like ignition of like, how do you get yourself interested in something? How do you get yourself not just over this hurdle? Like stuck is like, how do I get myself started? Um, and how do I choose something and, and go with it? How do I get that inertia started? This is less about inertia and more about overcoming the like internal pain that I have convinced myself is going to be there. So basically talking against that little voice in your head saying, you can't do this. This is going to be boring and convincing yourself, hey, I can do this. And motivating, it's more about motivation and inspiring yourself to get something done. Yes. And it's less because there's, I don't want to do this because it's scary is like, overwhelmed or like, I'm afraid I'm going to do this wrong. Where I'm afraid it's going to be too much work. Um, right. That's like a fear anxiety-based procrastination, which I'm going to usually put more in like, overwhelm unmotivated is I would say procrastination that does not contain angst like the same level of anxiety about the task itself. Like putting it off might be causing you anxiety where it's like, oh, my kitchen is so messy that it's making me anxious. But the task itself, if it's, and I'm not cleaning because I'm anxious, it's not an unmotivated problem. Right. Unmotivated is like just I, so I, I was a brand new one. I have not talked about this anywhere publicly yet. Um, that I just started doing my husband because we're having the same thing. I keep mentioning the kitchen cleaning, Ask me why. But the keeping the kitchen clean is hard and we have now started doing this thing because we're bowl I've been playing chess on duo let go for like a while and That's not the best way to be like learning chess lessons, but it's it's a game. It's fun And I got out the chess Board and we've got it on the kitchen table and we've been like leaving it on this little thing and we leave it out and so at dinner now we've been sitting down and like playing playing like a game and then when we kind of like stop if we're you know finish it then we play another one but Between moves because we're both not like fast We are we like playing chess, but we're not fast at chess and so when it's not your turn I move and it's not my turn and I go and I start to clean something the kitchen I start to put dishes away or start to put the dishwasher away and then when he goes your turn and then we'll switch and then I go and I figure out what move I want to make and he's you know doing the dishes and things and it is So choice like it is so good because because otherwise you're just sitting there waiting for the person to take their turn So now I have an activity to do Clean it is it's like an activity. It's like a timer. Yeah That reminds me of a funny story about kitchen and cleaning in the in the ADHD brains My mom and I do jigsaw puzzles and we have a kitchen island in their kitchen and we do them on the kitchen island well, I was doing the dishes and I turn around and I see the puzzle and I'm like oh the puzzle and I start start working on it 15 minutes go by I turn back around I see the dishwasher is still over and I'm like oh shit I forgot to do I was working on the dishes I got distracted and It's like your mind gets distracted so much when you have ADHD and But it's those little things that motivates you to get things done that pushes you through that unmotivated part of your life And I all say that one of the things that like helps with the lack of of motivation that I've kind of got in there When it's like creating a ritual is that I've had to start doing is like I work for you know work for myself and work from home and dressing up dressing up like I keep saying I'm like I am a CEO of my company, but I keep saying I'm like cosplaying as a CEO Because I'm like I do I need to to wear Like heels down at my dad. No, I don't but it or or like a blazer or whatever it is But I'm like I take myself Seat much more like seriously and I am like putting myself in the mindset And so but there are other times where I'm like oh no I just want to work on illustrations and I've got my like get shit done hoodie and it's like this ugly Walrus hoodie that says no whimp snow winers. It was from this like ice bowl Discoff championship that my dad was in in like 2001 and so But it is so ugly that I like did not wear in public would never want to wear it like in public because it's it's I No shade to the people no shade to whoever designed this hoodie But it's it is it's pretty funny, but that became my like Getting stuff done hoodie and I would only put it on when I needed to get stuff done like it used to it started as my test taking But now it was like my getting things done hoodie and so it felt like it had like this magic power in the same way that you know I joke about Like a space jam. They've got like Michael's secret stuff, which is just water. It's just water But you like he convinced everybody that you know tough convinced everybody that it's like gotta make you really great at basketball And so I think that having some of those like cues of like I lit this candle and I have my special coffee cup and I have my Certain hoodie on and I can do anything under these conditions The placebo effect. Yeah. Oh, yeah, weaponize the placebo effect all day. That's that is the key I mean, I mean There is yeah, I mean how many times have you seen someone take a go on into a drug test? And not know if the drug is the real thing or sugar or sugar cubes and They think they're doing better, but in reality They're not they weren't taking the medicine But often they were doing better, but they were doing better because they thought they were taking something that would help So that's pretty yeah, it's it's very it's very powerful and you'd think that that it wouldn't work if you know it's a placebo Sometimes right and like I don't I have not actually You know there is nothing that is actually Actually like magical about about this productivity candle that I've got that I only light what I need to get stuff done But I know that it works and therefore it is magic to me The mind yeah, and I think that putting yourself in the headspace where you are Like getting motivated is hard and I think that that staying motivated Is is also hard especially any for anything that doesn't stop because here's the thing a project has an endpoint laundry never ends dishes never ends there is I could get motivated to do it one time but getting motivated to do it all the time For the rest of my life Where's stop the ride I want to get off right and so I think that there's What are the different ways that You can find that make it entertaining or that make it interesting or that make it accountability So like another thing we did for dishes for that I've gotten the lacking accountability section was my husband and I would Do push ups and so I call it grime and punishment in the book Where we made a pact and we like write it down and like sign it like we write it down and sign it That is also important for these packs Which was pretty much that we had we started out everything clean everything clear For every dish or piece of trash that you left in the sink or on the counters that was not gone by 9 a.m The next day We say 9 a.m. The next day because if you get up early and you see you forgot something you could like you know get it gone but Tell 9 a.m. The next day For every piece of trash every dish you have to do he had I can't do I can't do to do push ups But like I did 10 set ups. He had to do 10 push ups for every single thing and so the motivate it's like I hate dishes But it turns out I hate working out more But but but it was like so incredibly motivating and and you also didn't want like you're paying more attention Because even though it's like quote unquote punishment again, I this only works if both parties are like enthusiastically Consenting to this activity. Yeah telling someone if you don't struggle with dishes and you're like you have to do push ups We both have to do push ups whenever we leave stuff on the counters It's like if you don't ever do that then this is not a game like this is not a fair like It's like you're gonna do that then that can be the role for me And we have to find something like you struggle with and we have to make that about you And then we can both be doing these separate challenges No, is there an exercise that helps someone build momentum when they feel nothing? Oh Building momentum I would say I mean I was go back to the to the Figuring out what gets you sort of like in that flow state Because what's one of the flow state again? It can that inertia kind of can carry us and so if it's a I You know have this little ritual that I do and I know that I work best when I've got coffee and I know that I You know or like clean my it's very easy to be distracted like getting ready is my favorite way to procrastinate So I will say like take that with a giant grain of salt where I'm like I need to clean my desk until I can get ready and then it's like I will find the most I need to reorganize this way that I'm doing this thing and it feels productive, but it's not And so I think that finding the momentum comes from um A lot of that like how can you get yourself to enjoy it and then know that you've got kind of like some backup plans for if that stops working Now let's talk a little about being disorganized When someone says I'm disorganized. What are they actually struggling with underneath? Um, I would say that's a great question I think what someone is struggling with disorganization. It's just it's chaos right um because there's not like a container um things are not contained and so it's a Like there's not really a sense of control there uh, and so things feel out of say out of control and so it's either like the mess is out of control or My the number of so the the two sections in the anti-planar are messy and difficulty prioritizing and the ones that I'm kind of working on for more activities are being like time blind and Routineless so it's like time management Like dip struggling with time management struggling with to prioritization struggling with routines and struggling with like clutter are all different forms of like I I'm struggling to manage my environment to manage my tasks to manage. It's like mismanagement of things um And so in order to sort of get on top of that you have to figure out like system like systems management You have to like engineer systems in order to manage kind of those those areas. I mean for those of you who are listening who don't know what time blindness is. It's basically, and then you correct me if I'm wrong. It means you have no idea how long a task will take or how long it'll take you to get from point A to point B. Or I'm doing something and I do not realize how long it's been or you know I've been. No, we track of time. Yeah, it's like time has no. time is the Lucy Goosey. It's basically you get into a hyper focus and all of a sudden this time disappears. I blink and it's dark out. Yeah. Yeah, I've had that. I've had that where all of a sudden I'll get into a zone and I'll just be doing something and next thing or no, I'll look up for my computer and it's already dark. Yeah. Yeah. And I have a need. If that if if it is directed at the right activity, that's amazing. It's so great. When it's not, it's the worst because then I get mad because then I'm like, oh my god, I owe it right. You get something. I always do this or I lost. I still need to do this stuff and I've lost so much time. I've lost so much energy and now it's going to roll over into tomorrow and I didn't have to do that if I would have gotten sucked down this rabbit hole. So again, I think that so that just goes back to the to the struggling to to manage myself. Now how does time bladden this blightness show up in everyday life? I mean, I think that the kind of the ways that we were discussing where it's I don't realize I'm getting sucked into something until it's like too late until the time has already passed and now I see how how late it's gotten. And but the the distressing part is when it's it takes away from time that I needed to do to do other things. That's why I really think if you're going to sit down and like play a game or get on your switch, you need a timer. Sit a timer and just say, I'm going to play this for such and such time and when that timer goes off, that's it. I need to get back to work. Yeah. And I would say that or like if you're using the I will think that like alarms on your phone to if an alarm goes off or a reminder goes off to hit like snooze and if you're not going to do it immediately, you hit snooze, don't hit off because then it will go back on and you will have to continue it will continue to annoy you, but you can't turn it off and then like forget to get up and do the thing. Just one more minute, you know. Now what's one system one simple system, someone can start using today without overhauling their life. For organization in general over time blindness. A little bit about I will say that I just took my little emotions quiz that I made for myself and time like time blindness was like the top was the top thing. And so I have just restarted doing toggle, which is a time tracking app. And so it's free, there's free version, I highly recommend it. And so I kind of put things into buckets and like projects and it's got a little play button and you can hit, you know, hit start and type in what you're doing. And it will it's just a time, it's a time tracking app. And so when I'm done with that thing or hit stop and I can hit start and put a new thing in. If I forgot to log something, I can go and like add it later. If I if I, oh, I forgot to start it, you know, you can like adjust it, but I get a snapshot of what my day looked like and how I spent my time. And it's been very helpful because I get to see how much time I actually spend working. And I used to use this all the time. I thought to myself, I'm like, how did I get the anti planner done? And I've been harving such a hard time lately getting anything done. And it was because and at the end of the anti planner, I said, this took, you know, to the book itself took 2000 hours to make it combined with how long it took to do self publishing and marketing stuff. It was like almost three, uh, 3000 hours. And I know that because I tracked it. And so what's really cool then, if you're someone who likes analytics is that you can go and see how much time you spent on a project. I can go and see how much time I spend in meetings. I can go and see, you know, like these little, you can generate little reports about, um, and some of that time, it's like validating. Like this thing that feels like it's been taking forever, I can go and look and I'm like, it is taking forever. Look how much time I've spent on it. And so there's like some gratification to that. But there's, it's also really interesting because there are days where I feel exhausted and it feels like I've been working for, you know, 11 hours. And I look on the thing and it's like, I've actually only worked for like six and a half hours today. And that's interesting information because does that mean that I, you know, am exhausted to something happen with my sleep or more likely what thing on here drained me just like drain the life out of me and and can I use that information for anything? So I would say from a from a time standpoint, um, I have found that even if it's not required by, you know, your employer or anything like that, just spending like a week, uh, tracking your time and seeing where it goes is also eye opening because you, if you do it when you're like watching TV, like you have to, you see a visual representation of the blocks of time. Um, and it has a real kind of wake up effect, I think on, because otherwise it's invisible. Otherwise, how I spend my day at the end of the day, I have nothing to show where my time actually went. If you have to sit and look at it, it is very, yeah, very eye opening. Yeah, I mean, that is eye opening because a lot of people don't realize how much time they spend either on the project or just sit and staring watching videos or even TV because you get sucked into something, time-flight and and if you got a project to, um, important and know how much time you're putting into something, especially if you're putting something off. And I find that I also have like the timer up in a little corner so I can see it so I can look glance up and see, oh, I, whoa, whoa, either, whoa, I've been off track and I need to stop it and go like, adjust it so that it's actually accurate or wow, like I'm taking weight like, has it really been two hours? I haven't made that much progress. I need to get going because we don't have unlimited time and I think that having that like reminder, it's sort of the opposite of setting a timer, right? It's the like going the other direction, but it's seeing how long you've been doing something. If you're not getting the results that you want, isn't a real kick in the pants to get going. Yeah, now I want to get into one of the most emotional aspects of the book, which is the last one, which is discouraged. I mean, this is something both autism and ADHD people feel a lot. And what does the long term discouragement feel like for someone with ADHD? I think that long term discouragement is what so many people, like, like you said, live with, which is so much like guilt and shame and judgment, self-judgment, um, of I'm not living up to expectations. I'm not living up to other people's expectations. I'm not living up to my expectations. And therefore, I feel like a failure. That feeling of failure, I think, is the core of what it means to be discouraged for me at least. And so in the book, the two sections are like hopeless and insecure. And I think that there's a lot to be said for, um, for, and the ones that are kind of working on it, like resent, resentful and flooded. But so much that this is like emotional regulation and the distortion. I think a lot of it is the distorted element of struggling to see things for what they are, because things feel true. I feel like a failure, therefore I must be a failure, or I feel like this isn't good enough. Therefore, I must not be good enough. Now would you say that it could be stemming from just years of being misunderstood? Oh, 100%. 100%. We get the self-judgment. We pick it up from places. No, no baby is born and grow, you know, grow, no baby thinks I'm a failure. Right? Well, maybe I don't know what babies are thinking about. But, uh, you know, you learn how to think about yourself. And it's, we're products of our environment. So there are people like I feel so grateful that I have really, I have really supported parents. And so I do not have the same level of self-criticism built in about like certain, certain aspects of certain things. A lot of mine is the expectations of like, I have been told that I am great. Therefore, I need to be great. And if I am not feeling like I'm achieving like what I should be achieving, I am a disappointment. Because not because nobody expects anything of me, but because I feel like people expect so much because in the past I have lived up here. And this is what this is the bar. And if I'm not at this bar that I'm failing, even if people say that you don't have to hit the bar, they don't know anything. Right? And so, um, I find that the everything like, what do I have in the hopeless section where it's like this sucks, everything sucks I suck. Um, and sometimes we can feel hopeless not just about ourselves, but like about a situation, right? We can feel discouraged about our powerless, I think, is a better, better term here for feeling like we don't have what we need in order to get ourselves out of something, um, or to to move past something. And so a lot of the discouraged section, um, is about feeling like deflated and about what needs to happen to kind of get yourself pumped up again. Now, there are an exercise that helps rebuild trust with with your yourself. Self trust, self trust is so important. I would say that like the element of self trust comes from being able to find those little moments of achievement. When it feels like nothing we're doing counts as achievement. And so I've got I don't remember if I've mentioned this on the last pot or not, but the small wins like trophy shelf where there's a bunch of little like star trophies and you can put stuff on there that you've been putting off that even if it doesn't seem big, right? Like I finally hung up these posters and being able or I finally you know like took that that that bag I've had of clothes to donate and I finally went and donated them and that doesn't necessarily feel like a monumental thing that deserves a trophy. But when it's been something that's been staring at you and staring at you and staring at you, being able to to feel like you achieved something there is really important. And I think that the as far as building self trust, so much of that is is feeling like you can trust yourself to show up because when I can't count on myself to show up, it's like how is anybody else, you know, I feel like no one can count on me and I feel like I can't count on me. And I think discovering that core of like what is it that's causing that? And where am I getting, you know, where am I getting that from? I've got an activity called like shutting up scumbag brain. That's like what are like trying to pinpoint the negative things that you're thinking about yourself. And then identifying where did that come from? Who told me that? Who made me believe that? Now one of the biggest things is how do you start believing in yourself again after you felt after you failed over and over? Everything is a new thing. Go to Monday. It's a new leaf. Is I've got I also have an activity called like forgive yourself. And so it's got the like I need to forgive myself for blank and it's and then underneath it, there are little things that are like forgive and forget. Forgive and do better. I forgive and do better and forgive and forgive. And forgive and forget. I don't remember. There's another one. There's like a third, there's a third thing. But pretty much determining what is it that was the actual problem that I want to stop doing or that I feel like I messed up and what am I planning on doing about it. So you know, forgetting to text my brother happy birthday or forgetting to text my is different than then forgetting to set a calendar. These are the ones that I'm thinking of that are the actual examples from the book, which are like is forgetting to set a calendar invite and or notification and like completely blowing off a meeting with someone. Right. Because one of those is like, okay, this this was a one-off occurrence and I will like I don't think that I don't think it'll happen again, but like it's not that big of a deal in the scheme of things. And the and he might my brother does not care. And so but the thing that's interesting is that the stuff like I forgive and do better. It's making a plan for how I'm going to stop myself from falling into this into this trap again, I think, is the if something keeps happening, what am I doing, what behaviors are occurring that are causing this to keep happening and what can I do to put a gap to put something in between me and that behavior happening. I think people forget that forgiving yourself that they can't forgive themselves because that's an option and that's very important. Yeah, and it's easier said than done. It's easier. It's somebody telling you just forgive yourself is like, yeah, okay. But one of the things I've got in there too is a self-compassion pep talk. So I've got it. It looks like little like chat, like a text message chat and it's it's thinking about things like writing down all of the negative thoughts that you're having. And then you reread it back like your best friend sent you this text and you need to respond. And you will find that what you say and you write down what you'd say back if a friend text it's told you that they were having this problem because giving yourself advice is like one thing and giving other people advice is another thing, but like you are going to be so much more compassionate in when that person you are going to pump them up. You are going to tell them that they're great. You are going to like remind them that this is not the end of the world and say things that make them feel better and then you read it back and you're like, wow, did I just make myself feel better. Now if someone's listening feels seen in all five of these, what do they even start? I wish my emotions quiz was done. I would say that the main that's such a challenging place to be determining what it is because I will say that like everybody feels all nervous or not. Everybody feels all of these at some point or another. I think that in our divergent people feel them often and or maybe all of the time. But when it comes to like working through the anti-planar or even just working through on stuff, identifying what is it that I'm trying to get done or what specifically is it that I'm wanting to change and what specifically is making this challenging or if I could change one thing about this, what would make it better. So if it like, oh my god, sometimes I was just on a meeting. I just just happened. Was I had an email I needed to send out and I can't figure out how to phrase this email and therefore I'm not sending the email. I know what I know the general gist of the topic that I need to discuss but I don't know how to phrase it and therefore I'm not doing it. And that doesn't happen to be often. But like when it does, it's just it's just this roadblock and I was going to call with somebody, you know who I really respect and I we were discussing it and I go, can you say and I started to type it and I'm like, how do I say this and they gave me a sentence and I just typed out the sentence. And I'm like, oh my god, now it's done. Like I just needed someone else to kind of like be there to help me see things clearly. So even if what it is is I like find somebody who is available and and that that loves you who you can vent to and just say, I'm going to tell you all of the reasons why I don't want to do this thing. Is there any like can you point at, you know, a verbally processing it will help you come to terms with some of those reasons you might be able to hear it for yourself. But they might be able to point out things about about it that you can't see because you're too close to it, right? Like you're looking at the leaves and they can see the forest. And what would you say to someone who's tired of trying? Oh, I see you. I tired of trying, entire of failing, I think are two different things that feel like the same thing a lot of the time. It's like I'm tired of trying and failing can be different than I'm tired of trying. Being tired of trying because like life is exhausting. That's the other thing right now. Like the world is crazy pants and and it's so hard to be like I have to exist on top of all of this and and try being exhausted is so valid. It's so valid and and wanting to feel like it would just be easier to not. And I think that that involves sort of like reflecting on what it is that you want out of your life and asking yourself if you're happy because if you're not happy, then you've got to try. If you care about being happy, right? If you are not happy and you care about being happy, then it's we got to make a plan and we got to make a plan that's going to work for you and not a plan that's going to set you up for failure because all that's going to happen if you make a plan that sets yourself up for failure is you're going to get right back in this boat of the self-fulfilling prophecy. And so it's like how can you break that storyline? And so much of that again starts by recognizing what that behavior is and being able to figure out, okay, well if the problem is that it quit things, what is the solution? And it's like plan on quitting things. Now what? Kind of a thing. So being realistic and and recognizing how to interrupt your own behavior patterns. I mean, that's so true. People need to realize what's going on in their own heads and and a lot of times it's negativity. I mean, it's outside influences. It's inside influences. It's your own process that's going against you a lot of times and people need to just sit there and say, I can do this. I can't get out of this slope and they just need to get up and do it. And I think that too that I will say the like hearing someone say just just do it is so like is so difficult to like hear from coming from other people because just do it. I think so many of us have heard like you just need to do it. You just need to do it. You just just just and just has so much judgment on it. Same thing with like should. I've got an exercise that's called stop shooting all over yourself. And I think that the but the thing that hard is often when we do just go, "I just need to do it." And then you just do it. And then it's like see that was what needed to happen when in reality you actually probably problem solved something. You just don't even realize you did it. So like feeling empowered to solve our own problems I think is a real key here. - Any other problem is if we subtract or adjust and say we can do it. - Yeah. - And I think it's a more motivational word. - Yeah. - I mean it's just like I say, you can't- - Or we can figure out how to do it. - Yeah. - I am smart. I am a smart and capable adult. That is really what so much of it is is like, "Oh, I don't know how to do this. I am a smart and capable adult who's capable of looking things up. I am capable." And I think that that's such a big big thing for people is like believing they have the capability. - Yeah. And then one of the other things people need to do is eliminate that word "can't" because that is such a strong negative word. And the more they say it, the more they believe it. And then that just builds this wall of "can't." And then it's all about taking it down and that just becomes such a problem. - I've got a little post-it note on my computer that says stories drive our decisions. And it's the same thing right with the inter- how- that's what I tried to do with the antiflux. Like how do I help people rewrite internal storylines? And it can be easier said than done because if you don't realize that you're living in a story, then you can't change it. And being able to zoom out and see, right? Like even me- I mean I have the same thing where I'm like, I can't work at night. Yeah, I can't get started at night. And I was just saying this like, I heard myself saying it as it was coming out of my mouth and I know that's not true. What is true is I don't like working at night and I don't want to work at night. And like that's fair. That is fair. That is a preference. I'm allowed to say that. But like I can't is not true. It's not true. I just- I- it's not how I work best and I don't want to is really really what's what so much of this is. And if it's if it's the I can't I can't it's I think genuinely replacing what I don't want to is is fair for a lot of people. And then it's like now you got to just figure out how to make yourself want to. I mean that's the sensual problem is people need to figure out how to make themselves want to do something that they don't want to do. Yeah. And not just want to want it. And kind of that's where they anti-planar come in. It helps them figure out why how and then give them a method. And figuring out the you know that's what just it is like figuring out the why are you procrastinating so that you can figure out the like how to fix it. And tell you there's so many people who just want to jump into the how to fix it. And they don't even realize what they're trying to fix. And so they end up using again, end up using the wrong tool, end up using you know a planner when the fact is is if you if you write out your to-do list in a planner and the problem is that you're intimidated by doing your taxes, then writing it out is not going to help. Even breaking it down might not help, you know, might not help. And so if that doesn't help, what is it that's going to help it? And we got to figure out how to help ourselves because a lot of times no one's going to do it for us. I mean, that's why a regular planner is so bad for those of us who are near a merchant because it's we have you look at it and you look at the calendar and you get so much on it you feel overwhelmed and it's like I got all this stuff to do. How do I and then you just start feeling bad because you've got to get it all done and then it wears on you and people are really like we're not as people type of people who like structure. Structure overwhelms us because it's rigid. It's not flexible enough to say hey we can move this to here. We can take this here. We have to need it so bad. It's like I need structure but I hate structural but I need structure but I hate structure. And it's just like there are so many other ways for us to do it and our good friend Jessica said and she even talked about she's like planners work because yeah you find it you you miss place it and then that's it. You lose it you lose track of it. Or you skip or if you're me you you have you go on vacation or you do something and you miss a week or you miss a couple days and now there's like a blank page and it's not perfect anymore and I broke my streak I broke my streak and now and now I kind of half-ass it and and then you just I completely fall off and then and now it's been months this planner is dead to me I can even though I could even though now it's July I could decide to pick it back up in July and start doing again but no because there's just a reminder of my failure sitting in it. Yeah I mean that's why a bullet journal or an open planner is so great is because you have no dates you fill it in when you want to fill it in. Yeah. And finally I just want to say that was Danny Dunn of an omniig miles. Stay curious stay fearless and wherever you are you're never alone. Thank you Danny. Thank you. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]