Ready, set, go! This is episode 444, featuring a case study of how 50-year-old John Goldman is going to go from a 513 marathon to a sub 320 BQ in only a year. Welcome to the Strength Running Podcast. I'm coach Jason Fitzgerald and I want to help you become a better runner. Don't miss StrengthRunning.com, our home base where you can find training programs, our award-winning content library, and our free email courses. My singular goal is to help you improve your running. So if there's anything I can ever do to help your training, please get in touch. And if you love the podcast, support us by taking advantage of these great deals to help your running. Thanks to Prevenex for offering 15% off your first purchase at Prevenex.com with code Jason15. Now Prevenex is a unique supplement company that holds itself to standards that the rest of the industry doesn't. 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You're offering a free gift with your purchase at drinklmt.com/strengthrunning. And this does not have to be your first purchase. You're going to get a sample pack with every flavor so you can try them all before deciding what you like best. If you're not familiar, element is my favorite way to hydrate. They make electrolytes for athletes and low carb folks with no sugar, no artificial ingredients or colors. I'm now in the habit of giving away boxes of element at group runs whenever I attend in Denver or Boulder. And everyone loves this stuff. It can be very helpful as a way to prevent dehydration when you're running long or running a hard workout. If you sometimes feel overly tired or you get headaches, cramps or sleeplessness after long runs or workouts, you might have an electrolyte imbalance or deficiency. You can boost your performance and your recovery, especially in the heat with element. Under the exclusive hydration partner to team USA weightlifting and quite a few professional baseball hockey and basketball teams are on regular subscriptions. Plus, element is my go-to morning beverage. If I've frequented one of Denver's many breweries than I before and I just want my morning to feel a little smoother. Check them out at drinklmt.com/strengthrunning. You'll get your free sample pack gift with your purchase and you can get your hydration optimized for the upcoming season. Okay my friends, this episode is a special one. It's a little different. It's a case study of what going all in actually looks like. My guest is John Goldman. He's a 50 year old CEO and the co-founder of Rebel Health who just last December ran a 513 marathon. He decided to do the unreasonable, to commit 100% to improving his marathon so that he can qualify for Boston in only about a year. He's under the tutelage of Alan Kuzans, a physiologist who's worked with many high level ultra endurance athletes and a team of doctors and coaches to manage his health. With all those resources, is this goal impossible or maybe just unreasonable? We're going to talk more about his prior athletic background, what his training looks like to see this kind of progress, the unique approach he's taking under coach Kuzans, plus I'll subject him to a whole bunch of questions that came directly from listeners, from social media. There are links in the description of this episode to John's social media where you can follow along with Project Unreasonable. And now please enjoy my conversation with John Goldman. Hey, John, welcome to the podcast. Hey, Jason, great to be here. Thanks for having me. Well, I'm excited. This is going to be a little bit of a case study type of podcast episode because you are doing something that I find really interesting. It's a little bit dare I say unreasonable. We'll talk a little bit about that. I want to learn what you're doing, why you're doing it, how you're doing it. I think there's going to be a lot of lessons for any runner who wants to see a lot of improvement in their performances. Maybe we can start with Project Unreasonable and you just giving us a quick definition of what it is and what you're trying to do. Project Unreasonable is the answer to the question, what could I achieve if I went all in? What could I accomplish if I trained as close to I could as a professional athlete, even though I'm obviously nowhere near that? What could I accomplish if I had the resources available to me and just made it my career? I say number one priority, but you know, wife, kids, business, which is part of the issue for many people like trying to train at this level. What could happen? And it came about as I finished my first marathon in October of last year, Marine Corps Marathon, I had been training using runner, the app, strongly. I just recommend thumbs down using runner, the AI app for 21 weeks prior to that. And my fidelity to the program was like 95%. Like I missed like three workouts. Like I was so dedicated. And I went into it and it, it, the early stages based on like my 5K and other stuff, it thought that I was going to be able to run a four hour marathon. So it chatted me training for those 21 weeks as if I was going to run a four hour marathon. My pacing for my easy runs was set for a four hour marathon, my threshold work, my speed, my tempo, all of it with this idea that I was going to run, you know, nine minute miles or eight, 50 miles or whatever it was. And as we got into like weeks like 15, 16, 17 and the long runs really extended and the speed workouts really picked up. I just wasn't able to do the workouts and I kept saying like, how am I going to run this this pace when I can't even accomplish the run out of the workouts? Like I was doing it, but I just wasn't like able to hit the benchmarks and the milestones and the tempos and stuff that were outlined in the in the workouts. And so I really down managed my expectations and look, look, look, look, he went into Marine Core after listening to a guy say, look, it's your first marathon. You looking for a time. What are you crazy? Just go have fun. Just like go do it. Just finish the race. So I was like, okay, that's a, that's a good call. So my goal was just, let me just finish five hours, five hours under. Let me make it a jog. Uh, let's see if I can do it. Well, 20, I was totally on pace for that. And my 20 came and, you know, it just everything got immensely harder and all fell apart. And I am, you know, finished it like five, 15, five, 13 by the watch, five, 18 by the clock. And I was satisfied in the sense that like I accomplished the thing. I finished the 26.2, but, you know, there was no like, oh, I really, I really did it. I mean, it really opened my mind to what different runner body types look like as well as like these older women and pear shaped people and whatever. We're just blowing by me on mile 20 on their way to their, you know, 430 finish and I'm, I'm dying.
and I thought I was in pretty good shape. So afterwards, I thought, look, I'm the kind of guy that kind of goes all in on things. I went all in on my business, I've gone all in. On other things all throughout my life, I started training Muay Thai when I was like in my mid 30s. And by the time I was 39, I had like won the WK a national amateur title twice in a row. I just started just 'cause I wanted to like give it a shot to like be in shape and I just end up all in. I started doing yoga and like before you know it, you know, two years later, I'm like going every morning in the morning to like the self-led Aashhtanga class and like I just go all in on stuff. So I was like, let me, let's just do it. Let's just go all in. And I had the relationship with Alan Cousins via social media, had never spoken to him, but we had exchanged messages and retweeted each other and some stuff. And I had just absolutely loved Alan's content, just seen like super sane guy, loved his personality, loved the detailed oriented, data oriented approach, loved the slow and steady approach. I had been a member in his forum for like a year, you know, really following along. And I reached out on a whim and asked him, I was like, look, I wanna do this thing where I go all in. Would you, would you coach me on going all in? And now Alan, since I've talked to him, doesn't take any new clients, hasn't had any new coaching members like, I was looking back, I was kind of, I'm very lucky that he took me in. But I said, what can we accomplish, you know, in like 13 months? And he took my body weight and my VO2 max and you know some other data and whatever. And he's like, well, how does a qualifying for Boston sound? - Whoa, I love it. - He's like, are you sure about that? And he's like, yeah, you know, I did the math and I plotted it all out and I did the charts and the analysis and you're gonna have to lose 40 pounds, 50 pounds, but you know, we're gonna get you there and we got enough time and he said, it's not impossible, it's just unreasonable. And I was like, well, that's the name, that's the name right there, project unreasonable. It's not impossible. It is entirely unreasonable to go from a five and a quarter hour marathon to, in my case, so it'll be 'cause I'm 50 qualifying times 320 ish, I think, you know, maybe 315 with a buffer. - Yeah, let's pull it up here. So John, you are 50 years old, which means your Boston marathon qualifying time is 320 on the dot, so that is correct. So we're talking about, you know, a 40, no, let's see, 53 minute improvement in your marathon time. - Oh, no, no, no. We're talking about almost two hours. - Oh my God, you're right. I was doing the math with thinking an hour. - Yeah, wow. - Two hours. - Well, maybe this is a little bit unreasonable. - It's entirely unreasonable, but I can tell you that the progress that we've made since November is really eye-popping and we're ahead of schedule. - I love it. So let's get the little bit of background and context around this goal. So you ran your first marathon in the fall of 2025 and the goal is now to qualify for Boston, taking almost two hours off of your marathon time. I understand that you only have about a year to do it or so. And so this is a lot of improvement in just a year. And one of the big questions that came up that I'm certainly curious about is, what was your background in sports and particularly any kind of aerobic training before you started training for that marathon last year? 'Cause I think, you know, if you are, you know, you had a couple decades as a cyclist, you obviously have a little bit of an advantage. I understand you were a really good Muay Thai fighter, maybe 15, 10 to 15 years ago. I'm not sure if that really prepares you too much for a marathon. I'm sure it can't hurt. - Every not. Yeah. - So let me give you the running context specifically and then I'll give you the other aerobic background. I mean, well, first of all, I played football basketball baseball soccer growing up as a kid and in high school, fell out of sport and my mid 20s got fat out of shape in my early 30s and it was going to Muay Thai that became my sort of adult life athletic Renaissance. And I trained, you know, for many years in Muay Thai, did the fights, did the tournaments, but then transitioned into, you know, typical midlife guy stuff, did, you know, decade of CrossFit and Powerlifting and Bodybuilding. I learned how to row on the ERG doing CrossFit. I've always had really great power production on the ERG, you know, pulling like a thousand watts, you know, and like not consistently, but like, you know, max. And rowing was like the only real aerobic work that I have ever done. I have tried and fits and starts to run in the past. My size and body, you know, usually walk at like 64 to 50 and, you know, I used to eat and lift and power, lift a lot and I've been on TRT for a long time. So like I was a big jack, big ass dude, but I also carried a lot of, a lot of body fat, probably running in like the 20% generally, a little bit more. And so every time I would run, it was, it was horrible. (laughs) Like it was horrible. I hated it. I literally hated running. I hated everything about it. It was exceptionally painful. It hurt my joints. It destroyed my ego. It made me uncomfortable. Like I couldn't do a mile. You know, maybe like 10 years ago, I got up to like being able to jog a few miles, but like it just, it was 2024, January 2024, where I was like, I want to go all in on my VO2 max. VO2 max of 50 at 50. And I was like running, I'm tired of rowing. Running is where I want to do it. But the rowing context, besides CrossFit, where we would do, you know, 150 meter sprints, 500 meter sprints, two case prints, was my daughter started rowing. And she rode in high school and then in college. And so I wanted something to do with her. And so I, we got the urge and I started rowing quite a bit. You know, I could do 10,000 meters, like three or four times a week. And I learned how to row on the water, but never competitively, never a lot really. But I do have like pretty solid 2K times, like, you know, 705 2K was the last time I tried it. And my 500 is like 125 or something. So like I'm really good at short term sprint power on the earth, but no consists like 5K is not my thing. I'm not doing marathons on the earth. And I've never ever consistently really trained zone one, zone two, like a rowback endurance training really ever. Got it. Well, even with that, I would say that you have a good foundation in power production. And I would argue that most athletes, adult athletes, don't have that background. And now if you were like a high school or college track athlete, yeah, you're running the 800, you're running the 1500, four by 400 meter relay is right of passage for all distance runners that the coach throws them in, but they are working on those middle distance events and really focusing on power. And you look at the trajectory of elite athletes who become marathoners, they almost always have a very strong middle distance background. So I know it's not running, but at least you have the ability to produce a lot of power athletically. And you've demonstrated that in the past. But I still think this is an incredibly difficult challenge for you because you have a year to build the aerobic capacity to qualify for Boston. But the thing is aerobic capacity is the thing that takes the longest to build. You know, there's a lot of coaches will say, yeah, it's going to take you a decade to really build that great aerobic metabolism over time and see what your potential is in the marathon. I'm curious what the real evolution of training was for you, particularly from your last marathon cycle, where you used the runner app and I understand you didn't really have a good experience with that. But now that you're working with Alan Cousins, who I agree with you, he's a really interesting follow on X. He's an exercise physiologist. He's worked a lot of Iron Man triathletes and ultra man athletes. His thoughts on aerobic training, I find really compelling and interesting. But what are some of the things that you're doing now that you didn't do during your last training cycle? And some things that that you aren't doing that you did in the last training cycle? Well, I'll tell you the very first thing that annoyed the crap out of me with Alan and I love the guy and he's been awesome. But the first thing was he's like, don't do anything for a month. He just put me on the show for a month after Marine Corps. He said, you're you can do 30 to 60 minutes of unstructured movement. That was it. He was dead set on me, healing completely, recovering completely, all muscle tears, micro tear
There's everything completely reset and totally settled inflammation down. And I was itching the go man, like I wanted to go right away. Like, you know, I did the 26 miles, but I was recovered, you know, at least mentally, pretty quick. What started and what we're doing differently and what I've never known before are basically everything, we started off with 30 days of daily, 30 minute runs and 30 minute rows. So for one month in the month of, I guess, December, it was mid, mid November to mid December, it was 30 minute run at 130 heartbeat cap and a 30 minute row at 130 heart rate cap. And so for me on my first run back at 30 minutes, I could only do 12 minutes and 38 second pace and keep to keep it under 130. And now 130 was a proxy for LT1 then, which we've subsequently done testing to discover. For the first two weeks it was 130. And I saw every day, I got better at managing the heart rate cap, first of all. And then, you know, like not going too hard, not, you know, not just taking it too long to pause. And then I just continue to see average decrease. So in the first month, you know, that number went all the way down to like 10, 20 something from 12, 38 down to 10, 20 something. And it was, I'm sorry, it was 135 and then we changed it to 130. And so I had never run every day. I had never cross trained every day. And I had absolutely never gone out on a run where the limit was like, don't go fast, go as slow as you possibly can. And when you hit that walk and I'll tell you psychologically, it was really tough for me. I want, I want to run, I want to work out, I want to exercise, I want to do it, I want to feel my heart rate, I want to know that I'm working. And it's taken a, you know, a paradigm shift to realize that the work is on that part of the curve right now. That's the work. So that was like the prep phase. And then moving into the first base building phase, you know, we, he finally gave me a long run back, which I love the long run. So I was excited about that. And we started doing strength training as well. So that first phase was, you know, like one easy run, 30 minutes, one easy run with race-paced pickups in the middle, like nine cycles of those in the middle of the easy run with a hard heart rate cap on there too, right? So they were only like 30 second pickups, right? So like no elevated, real extended elevated heart rate. And then another easy run and then, you know, a long run with a 135 cap. - John, can we pause for a second? I'd love to, I'd love to deconstruct this a little bit and maybe talk about some of the, the really interesting things that are actually going on here that we can maybe apply to our listeners. So, you know, one of the things that stuck out at me was the fact that Alan had you really prioritize post marathon recovery after Marine Corps last fall in a more aggressive way than probably any other coach. I tend to find myself as a more aggressively rest kind of coach as well, you know, maybe not as long as taking a full month off, but this has a very specific use case for it, you know, and I think it really goes to show that to properly recover from a marathon at 100%. You do need more than four, five, six days, which is often the kind of typical recovery period that a lot of runners will take after a marathon. 'Cause if, you know, they feel like they're not sore, they feel like they're ready to go running again, but those micro tears and the muscle, the hormonal changes, you know, all the, the kind of the things that are happening internally in your body, take more time to recover from, you know, especially runners who, you know, maybe weren't able to train extraordinarily well for the marathon. There have been studies that show there's damage to their heart, you know, the heart's just another muscle and it's gonna experience some damage just like your quadriceps, but taking that time after a marathon I think is really, really important. You know, I'm at seven to 14 days of basically no activity and then pretty easy return to running program for another like two-ish weeks or so. So I'm pretty conservative and I think that really respects the challenges of the marathon and the recovery process. The other thing that you're doing that I love is you're, you're getting in an hour of aerobic training every day now and I think probably now it's a little bit more but during this initial period, I have always thought that something special happens when you start getting to 60 to 90 minutes of aerobic training on most days, you know, it is a really good level for physiological progress for performance progress, but you're not necessarily doing it with all running, you're throwing in that cross training too and Allen's having you use a cross training modality that you have experience in, you have a background in and so you're able to get in the volume without all of the actual running and the pounding on your joints. And then the last thing I'll say too is you're focusing on the very thing that you have never focused on, which is zone one and zone two training. And I think for any runner focusing on the thing that you haven't really focused on, whether it's aerobic training, whether it's strength training, whether it's a long run, whether you don't really do workouts, adding in workouts, whatever the thing is that you don't really have too much experience in, is probably the thing that's gonna drive the most progress with your performances. So I think this is a really smart idea, but from a general picture, you're building such a monster base of aerobic fitness, John, that I'm almost a little jealous. My favorite time of the year was like summer training for college cross country, 'cause all we had to do was just run a lot, it was mostly easy and you just build this enormous base of aerobic fitness and you always feel so good with that kind of a base. So bring us into sort of where you're at right now, 'cause you're finally starting to add in some workouts, long runs and your training is starting to look a little bit more like, quote unquote, normal running training. - Yeah, we're getting there. And just a comment on the daily 60 minute aerobic exercise, I know it's money in the bank for the future and I definitely saw the decrease in the average pace over time. But notable was the improvement on my mood and energy and just the way that I felt. And it was so unstressful to the body that I literally will go to bed and I excited about waking up to go jog my 30 minutes and row my 30 minutes because, and even my daughter was like, you're always in such a good mood when you're done. And it really, truly that level of super easy and not stressful is, was energizing and invigorating for me more than no taxation, no stress, no recovery. Like it was awesome. We're beyond that now, let me tell you. But it was terrific. So where we are now is, I'm running five days a week. The key workouts are again, the easy workout with the race pickups in the middle. And then we've incorporated what Alan calls the Liddyard Hill Circuit. And now this was a challenge for me of reconnaissance. Like he says, he says find a hill where it's steep going up one side where you can run around for five minutes on one end and then a gentle downhill on the other side where you can run around for five minutes again too. It took me some time to find the right location. So what that is is like a 20 minute warmup and then hill sprints for 30 seconds, four minutes and 30 seconds of easy recovery and then 30 seconds of a slight downhill stride and then four minutes and 30 seconds of recovery and then the uphill sprints again. And that workout usually totals about seven, eight miles and it takes me like hour, 20 or whatever. That's like on Wednesdays. And then another easy run with some more pickups in there and then another just really easy run and then the long run on Sunday. And the long run on Sunday is all this is heart rate capped still, by the way. And he was, I think he commented the other day creeping up into zone two here as if I had violated the mission. And yeah, so the long run is, you know, like 60 minute warmup at a 130 minute, 130 beat cap. And now with a ever growing second half. So we started off at 38, then 42, then 48. And the last one was like 52. And if you recall, my first run with Alan was 12 minutes, 38 pace at a 135 cap for 30 minutes. My last long run was 11 miles at a 10.
for with a 133 heart rate average. So I have just vastly expanded the distance. I've dropped two and a half minutes off the pace with an even lower average heart rate. And I'll tell you that the last long run felt like a real breakthrough run. It was just it just felt so good. I know these numbers are nothing to me in the year. These numbers will be nothing and they're probably nothing to you. Most of your listeners, but being able for me to clock like 929 25 miles on the back half of my long run and feeling good and feeling still heart rate capped and like a cage tiger was just amazing. And let's get into the the fueling strategy in a minute too as well. But because that's how the profound impact as well and my weight management is just like a huge part of this project. In addition to that during the week, I'm also rowing 30 to 40,000 meters and I'm lifting twice a week. So it's a lot it's a lot of time now and it's only all of it's going to double by the time we get done. And my last week was 35 35 miles I think. All right. I love it. Can we can I ask some definitional questions here? So when you say race pace segments in your workout, which race pace is this marathon race pace 5k race pace? Yeah. So there's two sets. So race pace 5k pickups in one and then in another one, it is marathon pace. So like 715. How do you run a pace when you're also heart rate capped? Well, the heart rate cap is lifted for that 30 second time period. Got it. But because it's only 30 seconds, you know, whether it's the monitor or my heart, one of them lags a little bit anyway. And so, you know, I usually hit the cap on the segment right at the end of the segment. And that's capped at like 149 or something just for those the pickups on the 5k. But on the marathon race pace is really not enough time to really get the heart rate up too terribly much in those 30 seconds. And then when you're when you're doing like your long run, when you're doing, you know, any other easy run is the heart rate cap still 130? Yeah. It is. And the efficiency that I've shown there is definitely in part like learning how to manage the heart rate cap, meaning like finding the pace that's not going to push me over and or knowing that if I do get to like 132, that I don't have to stop and walk, but I can just kind of ease back off the throttle a minute. One way that I know that my cardio, respiratory fitness is really improving a lot is like my recovery time on the heart rate is just never been like this before. Like it'll say 135. I'll stop and it's like five seconds later. You know, like it just it just drops really really quickly. And so I can pick back up again. But you know, I got the headphones in. I got the watch going. Allen programs, everything through training peaks. It's right there in my watch when I hit start. I got a little voice in my head that beeps. It says, you know, heart rate exceeded. And I got it. I got to slow down. And on every run, but one, and it might be interesting to talk about that one run. When I hear that I'm disappointed because I want to keep going, right? Like I feel good. It's not like I'm feeling bad at 132 beats per minute versus 130 or anything. And it's not like it's a huge amount of stress. But it's psychologically, I'm like, oh darn it. And I got to stop. And I kind of like sing along to my music for a couple of few steps. And then I pick back up again. And I just want to keep going. I feel like a cage tiger cage tiger. Now if you had any injuries in this process over the last couple months, I have not had any injuries. And one of the real distinct value advantages that I have with the Rubble helpful ions team is I've got a, I've got an MD that's performance, performance oriented. I've got a board certified performance dietician. I've got a DPT and I've got a CSCS certified strength coach. And Alan meets with all of our team every month. And we're all in coordination and everything is coordinated. And we're all working together to make sure that I'm good. And so with the with the lifting, for example, all of it is unilateral work. It's all running based lifting. I do get to do some upper body to keep me, you know, my personal identity intact as much as possible with the bench and the pull ups and stuff. Because, you know, I have lifted for a very long time. And I am carrying, I'm carrying excessive muscle mass. And this is a key component that we're going to need to talk about for sure. But when it comes to, if I have a one out of 10 little tweak or twist or tension or a weird pain, I tell the DPT right away. And we rehab it right away. Whether it's a little tweak in my arch, which happens once or in my interior to be Alice, I've had some tendonitis flare up there. Or in my knees, I am carrying just like chronic knee issues from over time. But, you know, we rehab and prehab right away. And I don't let anything go. If there's anything that comes up, I tell them and we get on it because the number one obstacle besides, you know, fidelity to the training plan and my diet plan is going to be injury. So I'm really, really, really focused on that. Well, I just think the way that your training is structured is also a very healthy way to structure training. And it's prioritizing you staying healthy. You know, if we understand that intensity is an exponentially higher injury risk compared to slower, easier running. And especially when you start getting into like zone one, this kind of training that feels really easy. And when you finish it, you know, you feel like you want to do more. You feel like you want to press on the accelerator. You feel like a cage tiger. It's that scenario to be in where you can start increasing your volume. The injury risk is going to be substantially lower. You know, and one of the questions that came in was, do you believe if you did a more quote reasonable training regimen, you would face less injury. And I would actually say that the unreasonable goal that you have, that's the unreasonable part of things. The training that you're doing, I think, is quite reasonable. And in fact, it's incredibly well structured for this long term goal of getting good at the marathon. So I think injury prevention is built directly into the training plan itself here, precisely because you are controlling for intensity so much. And you're, you know, still strength training. You're doing cross training to balance out, you know, the fact that, you know, you're not running 75 miles a week or some kind of, you know, more competitive level mileage, which would have a higher injury risk. Not yet. Not yet. 70 miles a week is the peak weeks. Hey, a quick break to thank our partner element for their support. You should check them out. Element is my favorite way to hydrate. They make a delicious sugar free high sodium electrolyte that's perfect for runners with a high sweat rate or very salty sweat like I have. Now, if that's you, you're going to want all 1000 milligrams of sodium that's included in element electrolytes play a key role in helping you avoid dehydration, dizziness, cramps, and overall tiredness, especially after long runs or workouts. An element is used by the military law enforcement professional sports teams and they're the official hydration partner of team USA weightlifting. Get a free sample pack with any purchase at drinklmt.com/strengthrunning and they'll let you try every flavor before you decide what you like best. That's drinklmt.com/strengthrunning for your free sample pack. Hey, just a short break for our partner Prevenex, the only supplement company that I trust. They've just released their new product, Muscle Health Plus. This is your anti-sourness supplement, a combination of creatine, branch chain, and essential amino acids, as well as ingredients to aid protein synthesis and absorption. Use code Jason15 for 15% off your first order at Prevenex.com. Now, if you're a master's runner, you want to build some muscle or if you're particularly injury prone, Muscle Health Plus is going to help you hold onto your muscle and rebound faster from those workouts and long runs. See all the details at Prevenex.com and be sure to use code Jason15 to save 15% off your first purchase. Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about the other side of the training process, which is your diet and weight management. I know this is a little bit of a tricky topic for a lot of runners because the running community has been facing. The lighter is faster, mantra for decades and it's led to a lot of disordered eating. But regardless, if you're carrying around a lot of extra weight, it's going to slow you down. There is a very valid argument to be made that, you know, you should be in a healthy, ideal weight for running for your best performances. So talk to us a little bit about your approach to that. Well, look at Connor, Manson, Brady, Homer and you can see right away.
weight where size and weight have a lot to do with the performance, right? Like I'm a Clyde'sdale by definition. I'm six with four. I started I ran Boston at 245. I have carried at times 26 free fat or fat free mass index. You know, like I am beyond the typical muscle mass for most bodybuilder powerlifter people in general. I have to not only reduce my body fat down as far as we can go really, but I have to shed and this is this is this is one of the hardest parts for me. I have to shed 20 to 25 pounds of muscle and you know, VO2 max is a function of your weight. The later you are the faster you go, it's better for you in terms of your like impact and and injury prevention as well. And so at kickoff, I was 245 19% by Dexa. We front loaded the weight loss in November, December, January on purpose with a very aggressive weight cut. So I went to 1600 calories per day, 1500 some days. And I got as low as like to 209. I was probably around to 15. So I lost 30 pounds in about 45 days. Well, yeah. And how did you feel doing that? Well, I would say the first six weeks of the cut were easy. I loved the way that the fat was coming off. I mean, I looked terrific now. I'm very very lean in vascular and six packs fully etched in and all that. But it got to a point where I became food obsessed. Like, wife one day was like, every other word out of your mouth is about food. I was like, nah. And then for the next three or four days, every time I went to say something, I realized it was about food. I was like, Oh, she's crap. She's right. And then the hunger just became all consuming. Like deep down in my soul, every day, all day, all I'm thinking about how hungry I am, how much I want to eat food dreams, food fantasies, all of it. And then then the then the like goal salience left me, meaning the diet and the hunger was so bad that I was like, forget it. Like, I don't even care. Like, I don't even care anymore. And then I would end up binging. And you know, working with the dietitian, he's like, look, you know, I expected after 10 weeks that we would need to do a diet break. He's like, most people will can't go that long in this extreme deficit. And I expect all these things to come up. I thought I was failing. I thought the hunger and me, my weakness of wanting to eat, wanting to eat was failing at what I was doing. But he's like, now, this is plant. So it actually all culminated with one long run I had where the heart rate cap was, I was hitting it way faster than usual. My pace was way off. I was hoping to hit the heart rate cap this time, meaning like I could find I could walk. And it was off. I wanted the run to be done. Like I was finished. And it was the only run that I've had in this whole experience of far where I hated it. I was like, what am I doing? This is awful. This sucks. And so, you know, we looked at the data. We looked at my HRV. I was in crazy parasympathetics, sort of overdrive where my HRV actually shot up. And my heart rate actually plummeted quite a bit, like went way down. And I was just cooked. Like it was clear that the diet period was over. And it finally affected my performance. It affected me mentally. It affected my motivation, my desire, my day-to-day activity, like, done. And I had lost like 30 pounds. So for the last couple of weeks now, we've built back up to a maintenance level of around for me. It's like 3000 calories a day and long runs, you know, around like 3,800, 3500 on a heavy, on a mid-mid day, 3000 on a slow, easy day. And we're doing that for like another week just to try to reset my hunger signaling, my leptin, growling, and my other hormones. Try to get me out of this rut of like this food obsession that I've been in and just try to set me up now so that the 60 pound weight loss, Alan wants me at 185 for the marathon. I was 245 or so, 244 when I started. I've lost the 30-ish in the first couple of months. And now we're going to use the next six, seven months for the seconds 30. So we'll be targeting a much smaller deficit over, you know, the winter and spring here. And then by the time we get into summer and my mileage ramps up to 60, 70 miles a week with, you know, four or five hours of cross-training on top of it plus lifting. You know, my burn is going to be 4000 or calories or more. And I can eat 33, 3500 calories every day. And just, you know, aiming for like a pound a week rather than this crazy deficit I was in at the beginning and the thought process there was look performance isn't the issue in these first 30 60 90 days, totally base building, totally easy. Let's use that time now to cut as much weight as possible. And then as performance becomes more and more important and we have more time, we can lower the deficit, make it much more manageable, use the extra output as a way to fuel the deficit rather than strictly doing it through calorie restriction and make it just sort of like a softer landing when we get to, you know, me at 165 fat free mass at like 8% or whatever come, you know, in the race day, which is where I think I'm going to do my qualification attempt. Awesome. I love it. Do you regret the the very aggressive weight loss strategy at the beginning? Because is it obviously sounded like you didn't come out of it feeling good? There were definitely some some some detraments to that kind of an approach. If you had to redo everything, would you have done it a little bit more cautiously? No, no, definitely not. There was there was like a week, a week where performance really suffered and the food obsession and like the oops binge things happened. But I just feel so much better running now at this body composition than I did before that I'm really glad that we did it as aggressively as we as we could have. My only regret is that I was unable to carry the aggressive deficit out longer to be honest. And and now I feel fueled, I feel energized and I feel like I'm in a good position to wear in a week or two or so. I just got a note from my dietitian. He's like up to 4200. It's okay if we gain a couple of pounds through here. Just eating and eating and eat and and I trust me brother. I haven't eaten. Still tracking everything, of course, but but still eating and and I feel good and I'm in a position where psychologically it's going to be easier to ease back into the deficit coming up and as long you know I'm getting 3400 grams of carbs, you know I'll be good to go for the training and now I actually have extra calories to bring on run with me on the long run, you know, and like it certainly makes things easier. But no, no regrets. Only your right is I wish I could have been a little tougher and made it last a little bit longer to be honest. Well, what are your favorite foods to binge on? What do you like to treat yourself with when you're given a little bit more allowance in calories? Nerd clusters are a good one. I really love those pretzels. I love me some pretzels. I've had a recent obsession with grape grape nut cereal for some reason. A big bowl of grape nuts with a fair life protein milk. It makes for a grape breakfast actually. You know, baggles. I've definitely, for years I was low-ish carb, not low-not keto, but low-ish, right? Third certainly fat and protein focus. This is the first time I can remember and forever where I've been focused on eating carbs and it's just like a weird thing like yeah, just eat a bagel. Yeah, just have some cereal. Yeah, just have some pasta. Yeah, just eat a bowl of rice. Like what? Like so, you know, two cups of rice cooked with six or eight ounces of chicken is a pretty standard go-to meal for me now and I like to just try to keep things simple so that I can so I can track it pretty easily. And I've done enough weight cutting from Moitai and done enough bulking from bodybuilding, powerlifting that like man, I can eat chicken and rice for days. Like I can eat the same meal four times a day. Like it doesn't really matter to me. But it is nice having the extra calories for the carbs here and there. But I've got another week of eating and then we'll ease back into the deficit and the confirmation is there. Like I'm 30 pounds lighter. I feel so much better running. I can't even imagine how much greater I'm going to feel when I'm that much
later. And again, we're not going to get me to unhealthy levels, right? My fat free mass index at the end of this is still going to be 21, 22. It's still going to be squarely in the athletic range. We're not going sub optimal. None of this is necessarily optimal for longevity, really. But this is definitely a targeted time period that I'm doing something unreasonable. And then when it's all over, I'll probably start eating and lifting all over again. And this brings up sort of like one of the biggest challenges is psychological impact. I am transforming into a different person. I've always been the big guy, 6'4" to 55, 12% like Jack and lean and big and wife loves that, right? And it's been who I am. And now I'm slimmer than I was. And I'm going to be even way slimmer than that. And there is a transformative process taking place that's having an impact on me a little bit psychologically. I asked the team, I said, should I get a Dexascan now? And Doc was like, nope, no use for a Dexascan. All that's going to do is make you sad about how much more muscle needs to come off. You're probably right. I still carry 100. At some points, even 2'10" of fat free mass, maybe even up to 2'15" at times. And so I'm probably down to about 190 now. And I'm going to have to get down to like 165. Well, let's talk a little bit about kind of the evolution of the training because it kind of has just started. I mean, you're only 2.5" in months into this roughly year long project. Give us a sense of where the training is going to go at the 6th month mark. And then finally, when you're in peak training, month out from your goal marathon. Yeah. So all of this is still just base and prep work. Base and prep, base and prep, base and prep all the way until what July, right? And that's when marathon training is going to start. And to be totally candid, I don't really have much insight into what that marathon training block is going to look like specifically. I'm assuming there's going to be long runs with marathon pace segments in there and progressive runs and lots of speed work and threshold work and all kinds of the stuff that you know, we're all familiar with. I know that the mileage is going to ramp up to about 70 miles per week extended time, you know, going into the marathon training block. I know that my cross training is probably going to double from where it is now. You know, 70 miles a week as you and your listeners know it's no joke, right? That's that's that's like 330 wakeups, you know, for 15 miles in the morning on like a slow day, you know, and like then at night, you know, an hour on the earth to add to it. And I know full well that this is the easy part right now. Even even though what we're doing is still way more than what your average athlete home hobby athlete is doing and like the mileage, you know, like 35 is not nothing, but it's still nothing, right? And the cross training and the lifting and everything and you know, I'm fortunate that I, you know, run my own business and I have very flexible lifestyle. And then I'm good at getting a virally, but like it's really going to take up quite a bit of time. And I'm at once looking forward to it. And at the same time, a little bit nervous about it's just impacting my life, right? And it is truly life that might get in the way. Travel, you know, my daughter's volleyball travel schedule, right? Like we were just in Richmond a couple of weeks ago for a, you know, extended volleyball tournament. And I'm getting up at like 3, 30 in the morning and like trying to figure out where I'm going to, you know, run 10 miles, you know, at the hotel where we're staying and like office park and suburban strip mall and, you know, it's where my premium Strava subscription comes in handy with the heat maps. So I can really see where people are running around me. And so, you know, it wouldn't be the first time that I've actually, you know, stepped out in the middle of a volleyball tournament to go for a run and come back, but there's going to be a lot of that. And I have full support of the family and my wife, you know, really is behind me, except on the shrinking man part of it all. She really doesn't really, she really doesn't like that part. She said, I'm all in as long as you're not going to turn into one of those skinny runner guys. And I was like, um, that's so funny, John. Actually, that is that is part of the plan. Well, you know, one of the interesting questions I got for you was, you know, is there anything that you fear? And it sounds like not that you fear it, but it is perhaps somewhat of an anxious experience. You're like you said, you're transforming into a different person. But, you know, besides some of the identity issues that come from, you know, going from, you know, like you said, the big guy to a Boston qualifying marathon or who are typically not very large people. Is there anything that, you know, you are anxious about your, your fearful about? Is it the training volume that's to come? Anything that that is sticking out in your mind? Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Um, and, and I'll give you a story. That's maybe a little too vulnerable. But during the runner training program, which I told you, like, had this idea that I was going to be able to run nine minute marathon pace and all this. And as the long runs were progressing and, I wasn't able to do the marathon pace segments within the training. Like that really impacted me emotionally. Like I was doing all that work. I trained in Europe, in Central America, on the West Coast, in Kansas City, in Pennsylvania, in Florida, on all of our family travels. I trained in the early morning, in the, in the summer, he, I put in all the work and I still wasn't able to accomplish the workouts as dictated by the app. And, and it was so frustrating, um, to be doing all that work and making the sacrifices and not achieving the goal that I had set forth. And I, my daughter and I trained for marathon together and, and I run with her quite often. And I remember calling her one day and I cried. I cried calling her because, you know, it was like mile 13 of my 21 mile long run. And I wasn't able to hit the marathon segment in the middle and all this work was it worth it? Am I going to be able to do it? And, and, and, and it, and it sucked. Like, all that work and energy and effort and not being able to hit what's just truly just an arbitrary goal. And she said, Dad, listen, nobody cares. And she didn't mean it in a, in a bad way, but in a comforting way. Like, no one cares. It's okay. Like, you're supposed to be doing this for fun and for your health. You're already healthy. Like, it's okay. I, I do wonder what's going to happen when we get to the point at which the data, the training data and their performance is going to be giving us a much clearer signal as to whether or not this goal is going to be achievable. So, currently, Alan reports every week in the forum to the whole forum and, and reports me, I'm way ahead schedule. He wants me adding X amount of CTO every week. I'm way ahead of schedule on that. I'm already up to 70. We're supposed to hit a goal in 90 for this. My efficiency factor, as he calculates, it is increasing at the right rates. We've added more than he was hoping already. You know, and, and the efficiency factor he's talking about there is, you know, like distance traveled per heartbeat, basically. And, and then, you know, okay, great. We're ahead of schedule. But what's going to happen in in July or August when I've got 21 miles and, you know, 10 of it at race pace and, and I can't hit it. Or I can. But like, my fear is that I won't be able to. And then, as we get closer and closer to Indianapolis, that the data is just telling us that like, look, like, dude, maybe it's, maybe it's not happening. I hope we don't get to that point, but, but I am concerned about that as a possibility with that memory that I have of like not being able to do it previously and how, how bad I felt about it. And, you know, carrying out this very public experiment and, and continuing to document it, even, even if it's not working. Like, fingers crossed, dude, I'm doing the work, man. Like, my fidelity to the training program is nearly 100%. The only thing that's derailed me has been buried under like six inches of ice for the last like few days here, in Washington, DC. It's been a real challenge. Like, sidewalks aren't cleared. Roads aren't cleared. Track isn't cleared. Can't even drive to the gym for the treadmill. Like, I'm trying. Well, John is someone who used to live in silver spring.
Maryland and did a lot of running out in Rock Creek Park. Oh, yeah. When that area gets some snow and ice, it really shuts down because they do not have the infrastructure to deal with it. Oh, so you know, you know my run down beach drive down to the mall. I'm sure, huh? Oh, yeah. There you go. I've done so much training in Rock Creek Park. It's even after living in Colorado now for over 10 years, I might say that Rock Creek Park was the best training venue that I had ever in my entire life. You can run on the road. You can run on clear, wide flat paths. You can get in hilly terrain, technical terrain. You can do workouts in there, hill workouts. It's just so versatile that I really do like it. I live less than a mile. Well, no, I know exactly. I know exactly where my one mile marker digs when I'm running into the valley. So I live about a mile and a tenth from beach drive and you know, being able to, it's like six miles down to the mall and then you can run down to Haynes Point, which is a 5K loop. You can loop down around the capital and back. There's, it's really an amazing city to run in and there's a great running culture and there's a million people out running all the time and it's really wonderful living this close to Rock Creek Park. It's one of the absolute best parts about living here in Washington, DC. But it's all, it's all going to happen. Jason, whether or not I make it or not is going to be documented. It's all going to be public. You know, God, if I finish at 321, God, who knows if I finish at 317 and the cut off bump actually goes to 316, God, who knows? I guess one of my other fears too is that yeah, my weight can be dialed. My training program can be dialed. But I think there's some element of grit that is a factor here, right? If I could, if I could get an enough fitness level that I could zone to the whole thing, God, wouldn't that be, wouldn't that be amazing? But we know that's not going to be the case and we know that the heart rate is going to creep 20 to 26 and we know that that last 10K is going to be a real effing test and I am just hoping that my mental fortitude doesn't end up being the limiting factor because that would be the thing. Aside from like not doing this with fidelity, which I'd be disappointed in. But if it came down to the training stats set, I was supposed to be able to do it. The weather was right. The fueling program was right. The train was right. It was 45 degrees out. I was dressed right. Like hydration strategy was on point and the only thing left was like, did you have the gumption to like to really just fight through whatever that last, you know, pain cave is going to be like that. That would be a real disappointment. But, you know, we're going to train my way out of that, not even being a factor, hopefully. I love it. I love it. And I really do think, at least from my outside perspective, that grit, mental toughness, this idea of pushing through discomfort and trying to get as much out of you. This is a trainable skill that you get better and better at. And the fact that you are going through this process of literal transformation, going from, you know, a 513 marathon or to hopefully a sub three 20 marathon or going from big guy to someone who looks a little bit more like your stereotypical marathoner, this is really hard. And the fact that you are so consistently adherent to this program, I think is probably some of the best grit training that you could ask for in these early stages. So at least from my perspective, you're well on your way. Look at this. You familiar with this? I sure am. You're holding up the book. How bad do you want it by my brother from another mother, Matt Fitzgerald? Yeah. Great book. I've read it through a few times. It looks a little dog year there. It is for sure. And, you know, I'm well aware of the mental game and the mental strategy and the, you know, expecting the pain. So it's not a surprise and understanding that your neurobiological limitation is oftentimes the true limitation rather than your physiological limitation. And I've had experience in really in pushing through that where I remember this one day running I was like, my leg is hurt. Not like an injury, but they just start to hurt. And one day it just clicked through it. I said to myself, I said, like pain, it doesn't exist. The pain doesn't exist. The pain doesn't matter. It just doesn't. It just doesn't matter. And that was a huge moment for me where we're not talking about injury pain here. We're just talking about pain. And I was like, I can make a conscious mental decision to not let the pain impact what I'm doing and push through it. And being able to do that that one time really unlocked a whole new level for me in terms of being able to push through it. But I'm sure I'm going to read how bad I mean, it's literally sitting right in front of me on my desk. And that wasn't a prop that I brought into the podcast. It's all my mind mastering the psychology of mind over muscle. It's on my mind regularly. And I'm going to try to train that as well. Well, this has been super interesting to learn kind of what you're doing in this whole unreasonable project of yours. Like I said earlier, I think the goal is unreasonable, but I don't think the approach is unreasonable. Let's finish with a couple rapid fire questions. Let's say that you do miss the goal. You don't qualify for Boston. Are you going to continue to run after that? Absolutely. I have developed such a love for it. And this same training approach that Alan has me on has transformed my relationship with running the runner app. And that experience training for Marine Corps in the summer on top of it, which I'm going to do anyway, but it was hard. My wife noted the change in my language during that training build. I used to say, I have to run today. And like I had to like make it work now. And I didn't notice until she pointed it out, I say, I get to run today. And I look forward to the long run. I look forward to the point to point. I look forward to just like getting out and like cruising around the city and just like being out there. And I've learned that I don't need to kill myself on a run in order for it to be productive. And when I do that, I feel so much better for the rest of the day. I always feel better after a run than when I when I started, it is become just such a part of my routine and who I am that I'm never going back. And the whole reason I even got into running in the first place, one, it was a mountain decline that I'd never climbed before. Two, I really am focused on longevity. And as the leader of an optimization longevity, healthcare practice, you know, I've learned the more you move, the longer and better you live. There's just however which way you want to slice it or dice it, whether VO2 max is the right metric or your 5K time or your Mets or whatever it is. The more you move, the better you feel in the longer you live. And I have a goal of being a badass grandpa. And I want to lead my grandkids on cool trips and vacations when I'm 75. And I want to be a leader for my family and set the pace, no pun intended on on health and fitness and wellness and you combine all those things together. And, you know, I've got the shoe collection now. So, and I know how to do it where it's going to leave me feeling better than when I started. And dude, 20 miles a week, easy pace for longevity is friggin' gold. And it's impact on your psychological state, emotional state, cognitive ability, etc. So, 100%. I may take a break. If I push my ass off and I fail and I tear my body up, sure I'll take a break after. But I think running is absolutely part of my core process now and I can't see that changing irrespective of the outcome. The real question is, is if I qualify for Boston, am I going to continue to train enough to PR at the Boston that I qualify for? And Indy is only going to have me qualifying for 28, not even 27. So that'll be the real question. Will I maintain the runner body and size long enough past the qualifying into Boston itself to run a PR in Boston? Now, that is a little bit more up in the air. But running for sure is going to be here forever. Well, I think it's such a cool project and I am definitely going to be following it for a long time because I want to see how far you can get on here. And you are just getting me amped up to be a badass grandpa myself. So, that's something I'm going to be thinking about. I've saved my most controversial question for last. This one came in from. - A listener named Brad. - I know of this. - Now Brad is a lawyer. You are going to know that he is a lawyer from the structure of his question. He says regarding the performance medical doctor, and really the whole team that you're working with, are you taking any substances that would be world athletic doping association banned or that would require a TUE, a temporary use exemption or any substance that is not approved by any country's medical agency or any injections at all? So let me first say, wow, what a lawyer question. (laughing) But yeah, just curious if there's anything in there that you could be taking, but perhaps a pro runner could not be taking. - I'm good to go in Russia, I think. - Oh geez. - No, here is straight up answer, and I've been very public about this all along. During the wait cut, I took red atree time, which was, you know, it is a pre-approval FDA, weight loss drug, third generation, works better than Terzepatide. Really was a miraculous thing for me. I'm off it, I'm cleared from it. I won't be taking it anymore. And the reason why I stopped taking it one, mostly was because it obscures your HRV and your heart rate metrics, 'cause it elevates heart rate and decreases HRV. We wanted clear metrics on that, and I just, I wanted to be off it. So that's one. Two, I've been on testosterone replacement therapy for more than 10 years, and I am attempting with 100% fidelity to use the existing USADA structure in order to obtain a TUE. I have applied. So there's so many people apply for TUE, is apparently that not only do, they have an application process for the application process. And so I have applied through the pre-screening mechanism through USADA, where they ask you all these questions about your background and your goals and what races you're gonna be in. You tell them what you've been doing. And then from there, they decide whether or not they even allow you to apply for a TUE. I do have a medical need. I've got clinical diagnosis. I've been under the care of a physician for this for more than 10 years. And I'm definitely not definitely. I'm 80% not coming off. We, interestingly, we may decide to take me off as a way to get my fat-free mass index down to where we want it to be, because currently it is actually an impediment to my goals, rather than an enhancement. The testosterone replacement therapy is keeping my test at a level that's probably higher than most endurance athletes. And it's not allowing my fat-free mass index or my muscle mass to float down as quickly as one may think. I should be given my chaloric deficit and my energy burn. And so my dietitian speculated hypothesized Allen as well was where the crazy hunger is coming from. Because I've got the deficit, I've got the energy increase, and I've got the testosterone replacement therapy really hanging on to the muscle. And so it can't consume the muscle to satisfy the deficit. And so it's like, you better eat or you're going to die. And that has been actually a real challenge. And it is something that we're considering, although that will be a whole nother identity change. So I am still waiting to hear back from USADA on whether or not my application for the application process has been approved. If I do get approved for that, I will apply for the TUEF. In my understanding, the only age-based competitors that actually get tested are podium finishers. And then you can apply for a TUE, which may be retroactively applied at that point in time. So, and here's my lawyerly answer to your lawyerly question. Yes, I am taking testosterone replacement therapy, which is currently banned obviously by the USADA. But I am 100% in compliance with their protocols in terms of competing with this substance in my body. I have done everything that I can do on my end to be compliant. I have applied for the TUE. I'm pending my application. If I get approved, I will apply. And if I do get tested, I will then apply for the retroactive TUE. I don't know that I can do anything more on my end to comply with USADA's policies and procedures. So I just hope I get that opportunity. Well, thanks for being upfront about that, John. And you have a whole team of experts around you. So if anyone is going to do this the right way, it's probably you with that kind of support. Thanks so much for this really interesting conversation about unreasonable goals and how to go about them. I think the best way to follow along is on Twitter or X. And we'll include a link to your profile there. But is there anywhere else you want to point people if they want to learn more about project unreasonable and what you're up to? We're actually building a whole new website around project unreasonable. There will be a project unreasonable.com website coming in the next week or two. But the best way to find me is x.com/jongoldman and then #project unreasonable. We tried to put all the content there on that hashtag, the full story, every update, every piece of data, all my metabolic testing, all of my DEX scan blood work, I've posted all of my blood work, all my training, all of that, it's all available there. And one interesting thing people might want to look at is apparently I have the fat oxidation of an elite endurance athlete already. Alan was absolutely blown away at my fat oxen numbers on my metabolic testing. So hopefully that'll be an underlying advantage that I have going into the race itself. - Awesome. Well, thanks, John. I really appreciate it. - Hey, thank you, Jason. Really appreciate you being here and thanks to everybody for listening. - What an episode. Thank you so much for listening and being part of our community here. If you're getting value from the Strength Running podcast, if the show has helped you running or made you rethink how you approach your training, please consider leaving a review or a rating, an Apple Spotify or wherever you listen. Those reviews are incredibly impactful and helpful for this small business. If you have questions about your running, feel free to email me at
[email protected] or you can search our website atstrengthrunning.com. For more digestible tips, videos, memes and more, follow me on Instagram @Jasonfit2one. We'll be in touch. (upbeat music)
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