From big firm to own boutique: building value in life sciences - #40

Welcome to the Consulting Pulse, a podcast by CMAP. CMAP is an operations and intelligence platform purpose-built for consulting firms. Let's dive into today's episode. This week we have another Life Sciences Consulting Focus session as we speak to an North American beauty consulting founder. Come out of big consulties into running his own and also has an interesting perspective as an investor in Life Sciences products which make it to launch and into the hands of the consumers. So real domain expertise and exposure at the sharp end of how consultants' service has impact the clients and the customers. First up, let's hear more about Dane's backgrounds. To invest in consulting, non-marketable alternative asset venture work prior to B-school want to talk from business school, then post-business school went to Trinity Partners before the private equity events. I had a great time there, really enjoyed the people. I'm still good friends with them. Did a lot of forecasting revenue. M&A L&A work there, kind of, you know, building out that foundation further, specifically healthcare, then moved to a roll-up precision for medicine, whereas focused very much so on the L&A and M&A side. Expanding the finance and doing a little bit more on the pricing of market access as well. That said, at the time, really started kind of wanting to get back more into the venture world. Earlier stage, higher innovation, less of the, you know, we're going to do these large projects with these large companies in order to kind of, I don't know, focus on top line, bottom line, et cetera, and, you know, obviously it's necessary to run companies, but it was something where I very much missed the cutting edge of innovation, the smaller teams, that tight environment. So, started Brooks Hill Partners. We did a combo of strategic consulting for healthcare by Opharma, and then seed stage investing in pharma services, HIT, et cetera. Roughly a dozen plus companies in the portfolio have had three exits since then, have a couple, hopefully, I mean, knock on wood coming up. Then, about 18 months ago, a little bit more met and connected with another colleague of mine, from Trinity Partners, Jeremy Cohen, who was running his shop out in Minneapolis, doing a little bit of a different specialty, and we got together, said, hey, you know, what we mesh well kind of on the basics of the pharma foundation. However, we can build upon each of our specialties and our silos, and have been doing that the last day. So, you've got a perspective from the investment side where you're investing in bioseg, life sciences firms that are trying to go to market, and also a perspective running a boutique that helps probably similar types of firms, or others in that space. How much time commitment, how much focus and energy goes into both those different areas, was it peaks and troughs? Yeah. No, it's a great question. I mean, there are only so many hours in a day, right? And it's, I will say that the investment world is not one where you can easily just take a break, right? Now, we haven't made an investment in the last year, just because we've been focusing on spinning up the strategic consulting side. We are talking about raising a fund for 2026, early 2027. So that is still very much involved. However, it is something where you still, you can't just kind of take a break on what's happening within that space. If you do, you're missing, I mean, maybe this is just me, but it's, I don't think so at all. I mean, what ends up happening is you take a little break, and all of a sudden, you have to fight and do double that work in order to get back up to speed on the innovations, the publications, the, you know, the news, the new funds, the people, etc. And so that is a constant harm in the backgrounds. And, you know, I've said this many times to my team, I think us looking at things and being investors in this space make us better consultants. And then being consultants in this space make us better investors. So it would be something where it would be too a detriment if we kind of took a break on that. Now, that being said, it is also something where innovation consulting is some of what we do. You look at these larger, you know, these mammoth firms who we do work with. They represent probably 40% of our clientele. It's very hard for them to grasp specific innovations or at the very least adopt those specific innovations. A lot of times they will, they will have people who are obviously brilliant, but they will put them together and say, okay, you are now the innovation group. And so some of the work that we do is essentially setting up and running those innovation groups and saying, okay, are we looking into clinical development? Are we looking into platform discovery? Are we looking into cost saving metrics? What is out there for you for that? And so that is an easy way for us to continue to be a part of the innovation space while also being part of the consulting space. You know, I don't have an exact percentage on what I would say. I mean, it's probably a little bit heavier on the consulting side now just because we're, you know, getting to a point of cruise control with the strategic consulting. But again, we do these inspired by R.A. capital. We do, we call them health tech innovation atlases where we don't have the same, obviously, the same infinite PhDs on infinite laptops creating infinite works and Charles Darwin or whatever bastardized Shakespeare quote you want to say. So that being said, it is a space where we understand tech innovation from a services innovation, AI quantum discovery, et cetera. And so we will build out essentially sector charts, very detailed sector charts into these areas of innovation. And those also they acted in the beginning as sector diligence, company diligence, space diligence, et cetera, as well as something that those, I mentioned earlier, the innovation consulting piece can use. And so we still do those as well, which we're only doing them internally now. But again, what I try and make sure is that there's no, I don't want to say wasted because that's not the way to look at it, but the, everything we're doing, the goal at least, everything we're doing is pushing the ball forward and being able to stay in front both innovation wise, insulting wise, culture wise, et cetera. So that's a long-winded answer to your question, I suppose. And how much out of interest is by design or happy coincidence to have these two arms because obviously they are complimentary, but maybe one came first and then you, well, let me put, like you tell me, you tell me about the sort of like how you got to this point and how it's working. Well, so it's a great question. It, to some extent, is like based on market conditions, right? So I came out of talking 2010, private equity market, venture market, nothing there, not existing, very difficult on that side of things. So it was something where joining a firm wasn't necessarily an option. And I'm not saying, I'm, that's level set here, I wouldn't have changed anything in the grand scheme and things as far as this goes, I'm super happy on what's where we are and where we're growing. That being said, my father runs Boston Millenia Partners, so venture in that side of things have been a part of my life since the earliest I can remember. You know, they were the first and lead investor in Perraxel, and I remember when I was a kid, nine, 10 years old or something, we were in Cape God. And my dad would have us play like word search games, but like on the stock tickers, like just to see how we'd be like, oh, there's Perraxel or others, you know, X, Y, Z, and I know that makes sense. I'm so dorky right now, but like, that's as far as I remember back, and we would have those conversations. And so that has always been thinking about innovation and investments and growing and building has always been a part of what I see as business. And so I see it as a scenario of not, it's very much not coincidence. It was more, how can I do this, given the market conditions, given that I can't enter into an established investor, like, you know, $50 million, $100 million, $200 million fund at this moment, what skills do I need in order to get into there? And consulting, selling, personnel, those types of things, we're all things that are necessary to do a good job in the investment side. And so, you know, that's basically the way I looked at it was, okay, if, you know, I have one more thing, you know, I don't think that the monopoly guy way of venture is working necessarily anymore. I think it will continue to exist, obviously. But I do think, especially as, I'm going to sound so old right now, but like, back in my day, like, that's how things were. People don't look at it that way anymore. The rock stars are no longer the people do an investment banking, doing big-three consulting. It's the ones who are building these super innovative things in the college dorm rooms, right? And invest, the way you invest is going to follow the same pattern, to some extent. I guess they're all the regulations that you have to follow, but I was thinking about it in terms of that. It's, okay, how can I still make those investments still grow, but do it a little bit differently. And consulting was a way to apply that. And we would, bricks or partners would use the, you know, I would take a lower margin and then we would ultimately end up using the capital pocket into money, market funds, something liquid and then make those investments from our own capital. And again, this is something where people were, you know, I relied on the responsibility and the team to say, I think this is innovative. I want to be a part of this. And I would look at there when we made these investments, they're, you know, building out these investment opportunities summaries and I'd say, hey, you know, what if this goes under? Like, if we invest in this, would you rather just pocket a portion of this as a bonus? Like later on? Like, think about it that way. And that was the thing because if you think about it to some extent in that nature, we have a lot, exclusively the skin of the game, right? We're not taking external capital in regards to that. We felt like the diligence that we were doing was very in-depth. We de-risked as much as possible. And so, anyways, answer your question. It was deliberate and it was kind of a trying to think three steps, five steps, ten steps down the road on, say, everything I know about venture investing, everything I know about that space that I want to be in. What kind of things do I need to do now to get ready? And what's funny is it's in our office in Boston, but I have this widely financed book. And I have, I'm a big book guy, like, my team is like, you're such a nerd. Like, all of this stuff is like one infinitesimal part of the internet. You can look it all up. But I have this, this widely financed book on, and this board book, I don't know if my father gave me. But just yelling pages earmarked all over the place, different color, little bookmarks, different types of underlines, notes on the side, like all that kind of stuff from each time. And I'll read through it. It's not like a page turner, but the point is like, I'll read through it and find something that at this stage in time, after I've learned this from this client, this is applicable. How can I use that? I learned this something like so, that's where we are and we're going to continue to grow. And, you know, I mentioned earlier, I'm trying to bring it back to your original question, but I mentioned earlier that we're our goal is to raise a fund in 2027. And I know that's somewhat conflicting on what I mentioned in regards to the, an app winged and venture world. But there will always still be that table stakes to some extent. We are not going to be able, if our tickets are 250,000. We're going to limit that limits the amount that we can get in and the limits the amount that we can return. And so, because of that, it's kind of like you have to play by that rule in order to make that larger impact, we're going to try and evolve and try and be innovative beyond that. And so, again, following with that idea, I am still on a daily basis trying to say that they will wear in three years, wear in five years. Do I need to learn now to apply and be better when that comes up? And has that thesis that maybe started 15 years ago, with the benefit of hindsight, has that played true? And if it hasn't in some ways, like what are some of the lessons in there that you can share? Yeah, it's a great question. It is, I'm not going to say that I did absolutely everything right, because that would be ridiculous. You know, I think trying to think back on some, again, more of those, the lessons that I've learned, one thing I think is extremely important is I will never, and I think this is a massive mistake, walking into any room, thinking that I am the smartest or I am the best at anything, right? You can learn something from everyone. And I think in the beginning, you know, I assumed everything was going to be Rambos and puppy dog tails, right? I was going to walk out of this company, and everyone was going to shower me with consulting engagements and fundraising, and etc. Now I think to some extent, that's the naivety of youth and determination and hubris, but I think one of the things that I wish I had done earlier was getting involved more with people around me and start things. So I started Brooks Hill Partners on my own. Now this, again, was out of necessity to some extent, and I don't want to disparage anyone from precision, but I didn't have the same, like I still hang out with Dave Attenrich, Steve Fleming, etc. like the Trinity guys that I hung out with before, they're good friends of mine. I haven't talked to the people from precision in a very long time, and I think, again, I, you know, that's just the nature of people and how things are, has nothing to do with them as a company. But looking back on it now, being able to start something with someone else, even if it's just a bounce ideas off of and help grow, I think looking back on it, I would have changed that. Now, I have a partner now, and I am seeing that benefit, and I'm not saying that we're Brooks Hill or any of those things were worse because of it. I do think that I would have learned faster and I would have gotten to a place faster. I think it was unavoidable to some extent because at the same time when I was starting this, you know, my wife, Jessica, who's my partner in life and everything, it, it is something where we had a very long conversation over many months to be like, you know, are you happy here? Are you like what do you want? And she supported me throughout. And so she's my partner in the grand scheme of things, and I will always have that. But at the same time, corporate wise, I think starting out there would have been, would have made things a little easier. So, and I see that now in the startup world, by the way, like it is something we're in the beginning, we would invest in, you know, we've got two companies that started as sole founders. And one of them has gone under, which stinks. But at the same time, the other one I worked with on a bi-weekly basis, and he's doing fantastic, he's brought on another co-founder, et cetera. But, so that's one of the ones that I would change for me. That's a great lesson, and it's one that people that Stalin sort of say if you're starting, you say any type of firm, but you're up in professional service as well in particular, particularly as there's some really core components, you know, professional service firm. There's often a lead sales and business development marketeer type role. There's often an operator who then leads the delivery piece. There's often maybe somebody who's more documentation, IP, IC, centered. Yeah. So, but I'd love to talk more about the firm as well, so you know. Sure. Yeah. I think I will say well, I'm not the thing, and I apologize when interrupting, I know it's I, it is a, it was also the same extent of fear of everyone has always said, and this is very much true. Everyone has always said, look, if you're finding a business partner, it is like a marriage. And it is one of those things where if things don't work out, it becomes, it's almost two steps forward, three steps back, type of thing. And there was a little bit of a, excuse me, a sense of fear of that as well, just saying, okay, well, I know I can rely on myself. But anyways, sorry, I interrupt, go ahead. Actually, well, let's, let's spend a second there before moving on to the firm, how did you find each other or who found who, what are the complimentary skills, where it was there like some sort of like meeting of minds, what was that process, because again, there'll be, there'll be people listening to this who are so low leaders, there'll be people listening to this who have got one or two or other founders, so some insight there would actually be quite valuable. Yeah. What's so interesting is I am a, I am a huge proponent of network science, and this leads into a little bit of the firm, but like, my opinion has always been, do great work, be a great person, right? Now, that is something that, I mean, Cambridge was a smaller group, tight, middle, but I mean, even going back to undergrad, very small community, you know, very tight knit, is on the swim team there, same type of thing, talk, same thing, Cambridge was the same thing, Trinity at the time, 90 people, same thing, tight networks developing that. And then, what happens to that is, okay, well, I trust you, right? So Ben, you and I are working together, we, you know, we're in the trenches, we hang out that kind of thing, we're, whether it's at a professional conference or anything out or something, Ben walks up and says, hey, this is not for an Alex, Alex, Ben likes you, must be great, we've got a couple things in common, I'm sure, so you start talking about that. Then, let's say Alex and I, you know, exchange emails, that kind of thing, talk a little bit about it, listen, ask your questions, two years from now, I run into Alex and we start up, I kind of say, have things been, oh, I've been doing this, oh, really, you can do, I've in that sector also, let's talk a little bit more outside of, outside of the Ben aspect up, right? I've found that one, a lot of, not a lot, but like our consulting engagements start from something similar to that. So we may have a conversation, you may have someone listening to this and say, that's interesting, I really, you know, I know that space, hmm, I'll give my shout out. Or in three years, remember listening to podcast and thing, what was that from? Oh, yeah, I remember, and then give them a call. So I think that actually, to some extent, and keep it open mind, as, as uncomfortable as some of these like networking events can be, find one or two things out of it that you can go and say, I'm going to do this and I, like, that will consider a success, even if it's like you're making your own little scavenger hunt to be like, okay, I'm going to find someone named Fred, right? And your job is, okay, well, if I, I'll be, I'll go play six holes of golf if I can find someone named Fred. And so I'm going to walk around and meet a bunch of people until I find that named Fred. I'm going to find somebody's wearing a blue tie or a bow tie or something like that, right? During that, you put yourself out there, you meet people, you find things that happen. And then you start to develop that relationship. Now, I, we will not invest in people who have found, like, they're like, oh, I just found this person like two weeks ago, right? There needs to be a history there. And so that is where, to some extent, coming back to where, how the company started, Jeremy and I had worked together at Trinity. So I knew his working style, I knew his work product. So that automatically starts a little bit down from the filter aspect of it. I knew that it was good. And that's important because you find somebody who, you always want a little bit of difference so that you both can raise up. But at the same time, if it's too different, if you don't try that out and you start to dive right into the deep end of the pool, that's going to be a problem. So Jeremy and I chatted, we actually chatted probably about six years ago. And at the time, you know, we were saying, hey, with this work, and at the time, it really didn't work. You know, it didn't make sense just where we were. We were very separated. We were still figuring out the single, single thing. And then three years ago, he gave me a call and he was like, hey, I've got this ONA project. I can do it. But I would love to try and test this out. He's grown, you've grown. Let's work on this together and we'll see if this works. Projects were great. I turned around. I said, hey, I've got this commercial project on project management. I'd love to do that with you. He said, let's do it. Went well. And so that was one of those things where I was like, okay, well, I know he's a good dude. I know he does good work products. Can we work together? Yes. Is this someone, you know, you do the airport test? Like, is this someone that if I'm stuck here, we can have good conversations. We can. And so that's how it came about. And I would say to anyone who is either looking for co-founders or someone in that space, it really like, you don't know where this is going to happen. And you don't know who in your network is going to have it happen. Don't be that smarty person who's out there being like, I'm looking for a co-founder. I'm sending out these, I'm very much against like the spray and pray aspects, deep rather than wide as the way I look at it. But be that. Listen to those questions, find those people, ask those quite like, be memorable and put yourself out there. And don't be afraid to kind of like this, don't be afraid to say no. I find, it's my English heritage or whatever, but like, I find it okay to like, it's fine I don't be afraid of someone being like, whatever, yeah, I have a bowtie, great fine. And like, move on. So what? You're uncomfortable for a total of what, 17 seconds maybe, like, move on. Short memory, goal fish, right? So that's what I would say. It's fine to set up, you know, this is the archetype that I'm looking for. Okay, fine, that's the direction, that's the horizon line you're going towards. And after that, you don't have to get there, but there's no design way to get there. Well, that's that question, quite like there's a few learnings in there for me, like, you've obviously got quite a serenipitous view of the world. You're more than happy to take your time, I like to go deep rather than wide and I like the fact that actually the forming of the partnership was through, was through good quality work and almost like, no, it didn't sound like a referral, right? But it was like working partnering with each other before actually formalizing it. So you really like tested it out. It's like going on a few dates before you've sort of proposed to each other. And I mean, at the same time, you know, when Jeremy called me, whatever was six years ago, I could have just said, yeah, okay, let's do this or like, let's try this. But at the time, it was like, you know what? This doesn't check the boxes that I need at this moment. Right. We'll see how it goes. So, they need to rush into it. There really isn't. And, you know, I agree well, and I think I, you know, we had talked about this a little while ago, like I do have an optimistic view on a lot of things. I look at it like believe in people until they prove you wrong. And once they prove you wrong, then you don't have to deal with them anymore. Forget which mob movie it was early to know. Anyways, the point is it was, it's like all the sky goes me 10 bucks or something. And he goes, do you like it? And he's like, I don't know. I'm not really, I guess he goes, well, there, all across you is 10 bucks. You don't have to deal with them again. Okay. It's a good point. So, believe in the good until they prove you wrong. And then, yeah. So. John, I've had a lot of sports people say that so if they might have come from nothing and they've been incredibly successful and then all of a sudden they get people asking them all the time for things, it's like a lot of their attitude is right. Well, I'll do something once for you, but let's find out like what you're really made of. Let's find out whether you're asking me because you want something out of it or you're asking me because you really need my help and will still be good after that. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. And, you know, we see a lot of that with venture. And, you know, I say this with a great assault of some extent. You know, we get 30 pitches a day to some extent. I'm not going to go through every single one of those and think, okay, well, this will be good until I do the diligent, like that's just not feasible. But at the same time, it is something where when you're thinking about, this is the way I would look at it as far as partnerships or developing your company or, you know, even making those investments. You have to still look at your portfolio companies and the leaders of those portfolio companies. As someone, you're going to be investing a lot of time, a lot of energy, a lot of frustration with. And, you know, I do think this is a downside to some extent with the current attitude towards investors where the investor is, you're the money guy, like take the money and then will do everything from here. And I think that's a mistake. I really do. I think that the investors have been through a lot of this. They have that network. They can see, you know, there are those ones, those bad apples who will go in and shake things up and turn things around and fire people, etc. But that's not always the way. It's not like, at least again, get back to some extent, the optimistic view. I succeed when you succeed. I'm not going to be doing things in some nefarious purpose, but I don't appreciate it. So if I make an investment and the that is the attitude or not before I make an investment, I mean, this is part of the diligence. Do we work together well? Is there an understanding and appreciation of the value that the investor brings to the table? More so than just the capital. Yes, I recognize that the capital is, that's what the relationship is built on. But at the same time, it doesn't always have to be. I continually say to people, you need to have the right people around the table. You accept, there was a fair amount of time where a lot of money was coming out of the Pacific Basin into US healthcare, US healthcare tech, etc. And that was great, or seemed great at the time. I was like, oh, I'm looking for five million. They want to put in seven. It's like, okay, well, you need to be careful of this because what happens on the next round? Where's their network? What are they going to add? Do they have familiar with the business, is this, where is this money coming from? Because if you can't add that second piece that follow on that value outside of just the capital. You don't have to do all of this over again in the next round and you're going to have to start from square one. And so, anyways, that was just the serendipity aspect of it, I think, is positive and I think it's something that is very, very important for the optimist of you within reality. So, here's something I'm thinking, just want your experience on. So, you're running a consulting firm, which has to deliver projects for paying clients. You're also investing in businesses that may well be the type of business that would also benefit from consulting services, but you're not running a charity on the boutique consulting side and there's also this like contradiction where you're just talking about some firms just seeing the investment people as the money, but you've actually got within your network and a separate business to capability to help them. There's a lot going on there, so like, taught me through how that works. Yeah. It's a great question and I really appreciate, you know, the type of listening and questioning you're doing right now is exactly what I was talking about before, which is like, ask good questions and make it so that you are hearing what they're saying, and you're right. I am very, I typically am against this whole idea of double dip in a sense of revenue. I have seen a number of venture companies do this where they will essentially supply due to economies of scope and scale. They will supply their portfolio companies with specific licenses or they will do services and ultimately end up charging those portfolio companies into me that seems backwards, right. So when the company does well, that's when I'm going to make my money. Now, you bring up an excellent point, one that we're actually going through at this moment, which is they, these seed stage companies, they don't have everything they need, specifically when it comes to business development, when it comes to any sort of finance, we do that, right. So we can supply that to them. I have paying clients. We have one specific client that we have right now is they're fundraising, they're looking into partnership deals. They don't have the deal term scenarios that are built out. They don't have the people to do it. They don't have the time or money to do it. Well, we can do that. I also coach my kids' soccer teams on the weekends. I need to be home for dinner. I need to get a certain amount of sleep. I can't just do those things, right. And so what we try and do is in the beginning, it'll be like, okay, this is, we'll have bi-weekly calls. This is what I'm going to say. You should be working on it. It should look like this. Here's an example of something, right. Obviously, non-content and thing, I'll send it away. After that, it's something where we see the value. I'm not going to say, so let's say something like that were to cost 150K over the course of whatever, 90 days, right. I'm not going to charge them that. That being said, they're not going to get the same level of priority at this stage. Just because the paying clients are those service-revenue clients, the other ones are keeping lights on. They're the ones who are allowing us to hire these people. I will set up with them. And by the way, I also don't push this. This is something where if the client is saying, hey, I know you do this. Can we set up a contract so that we can become one of those like our priority that gets knocked up to where we are and you will dedicate that time to it? That absolutely. And also the way that we're trying to do this. We see this with some of our target companies, these sub 500 million companies, where, in the beginning, we're going to set up something where it's flexible and acceptable and advantageous for you in the short term. And then in the longer term it's advantageous, I don't want to say, that's a wrong word. It's something where we get back to where we should be in a little bit of the longer term. Like, you know, 50 grand or we'll do this at cost plus 5 percent or something teeny, right? In the beginning, we'll set that up and then we'll either say, okay, as the additional 100K, that's going to be in the form of current, like a note or equity or, you know, there's a contingency on the next round that x, y, z amount, instead of 100, it's 125, gets paid to us, right? And so that's a mechanism where we both win. I'm not gouging anything from them significantly enough that it will be a concern for them, but at the same time, I'm not sacrificing my team. Now there's a certain level of faith with that and it has, you know, we've probably done it a half dozen times maybe and two out of those 10, it may be a situation where it didn't work out. But that's the reason why upfront it's like, okay, we're going to cover our costs. And then we'll be able to do that. So, I'll bet. And we'll see you day enough times now where you've got some historical data to look back on and be able to make an educated decision and compare that against where your clients are currently at. Let's talk about the firm and the types of work that you're doing, the types of clients that you are winning or retaining. What are some of the strategies that you are leveraging there in the professionals or services business? Yep. And so, Jeremy and I, as I mentioned before, we share this a number of the foundational capabilities that we have and then our detailed capabilities build off of each other. Now for me and the Boston office, a lot of what we do is focus on FPNA finance, business development, that area for growing clients and talks a little bit to what I had said very early, which is do great work, be great people, right? So, my center of the bullseye sweet spot is whether it's a recent IPO, large raise companies that are around a billion, something like that, heavily historically run by developers, researchers, the R&D side of the sheets have been driving everything. Now all of a sudden, especially when you look at the IPO example, the GNA side has to be bulked up. That hasn't been the case. It's difficult when you look and you say a lot of that has been run by the CFO and maybe ahead of finance. So we will then come in as a turnkey solution, essentially, and run their FPNA or run their BDN analytics or run the revenue forecasting. And it is something where it's much more important for me to develop a lasting relationship than it is to build out a high margin 90 day project event, right? So we look at our team and the relationships that we've had doing this and again, historical data, right? So we've had, first client I worked with was Momenta, Bob, I'm Janssen for $4 billion. We worked with them from day one, essentially, a Brooks Hill partners through to the acquisition. And we built out the acquisition model, the Deal-Turn model. There was a very large bank that runs a very famous conference at the beginning of January that came in, stamped it, changed the colors, and then used it, right? And so, a little bit more detail than that, but still, that was the case, right? So we worked with them for four plus years, then after that, we worked with N's event. We worked with Epozyme. We were, like, these companies that we're having started as a 90-day relationship. Can you come in? Can you fill this gap? This person's out on paternity maternity leave. We need somebody who can do it. No problem. We get butts in seats. After that 60 days, they're like, oh, crap. Not only are you doing a great job, but I can give you dinner call and we can talk about Strat, or we can talk about ops, or we can talk about partnership, or we can talk about HR, or we can talk about these other things. Can you do that? Yeah, I can do that. Of course, I can do that. So they're starting to see, hey, wait a second, you're a part of this team, right? And so those 60 to 90-day engagements become these for your engagement. So we're working right now with a company that's doing fantastic, and we've been with them for four and a half years. So the point where the head of finance we had didn't end up working out, but we invited him over for Thanksgiving dinner. We went over to the COO's or daughter's graduation. My EM, my number two over here, goes to all the holiday parties. Just went to one of the Red Sox games over the summer. They were like, hey, the finance team's going to the Red Sox and you want to come? Yeah, of course. They were having them golfing, et cetera, we're an extension of that team, right? And so that has been what we focus on and has worked very, very well. I realize I'm rambling again there. But my point, I guess, is for us, it is something where show the value, right? And not in a strategic way of, oh, they can't do it without us. But show the value to the point where they really do see it and they see that it's more than just a client or a consulting engagement. It's funny because we will have these engagements. And then the head of finance will be like, we're bringing just so you know, I want to make sure you're aware we've got a job posting out there for kind of number two or a couple more finance people. And that's fine. That's inevitable, right? Which again, is also my reaction to saying that's fine. Look, that's awesome. I love it. The company's growing. That's fantastic. What has happened, I mean, almost every single time I can think of one where it hasn't. But what has happened is that person will come in and be like, damn, can you guys, we're going to set up a separate PO, but like, can you guys run this stuff for me? And it's like, okay, well, I will just change a little bit. Or it's like, hey, Jen needs something on clinical development. Can you guys go help over there and say, absolutely, right? And so that has been something that relationship aspect has been very, very important and has been very successful. And I think it is something that differentiates us. You have a lot of these routine consultancies who do talk about the relationship. And that's great. And I'm not saying that that isn't important for them either. But it is something where that is of the upper echelon for us, right? It's tied with due great work. And so we are, they know they can depend on us. They know they can call us at 11 o'clock, then I before an audit committee and they need us to run through something. I don't want that to be the norm. But they know they can and they know that we're there for it. And so that's really, really important. And that's what's worked out very well. It is kind of like for other booting for some services, not in your niche, but in other niches. So let's say you're in transport logistics and you've got a booting consulting firm there. Let's say you're working at FMCG or you're in construction, that entry point project and then long term extension is what everyone wants. And even when new people come in to get moved into a slightly different piece is also a great outcome for you as in the business. Is there anything deliberate that you or your people are doing that either individually or organization to sort of like make that happen or is it just more of like a belief based on again, looking at all of your historicals that if you just do what you're doing, you have enough evidence to prove that the light it is, you'll get that outcome going forwards. Yeah. And another great question. I think it would be, I don't want to say just of generous, but at the same time, I think it would be a mistake if I took the attitude of optimistic type of thing and it will just work. In that case, that is not the case necessarily for us. We have done it enough that we know a there's no SOP for the budget. There's no mechanism, there's no specific person not to meeting with all of these various departments. There's no, they don't have a specific LRP that loops in the budget, there's no communication between these. So we have become very, very good at kind of finding that those gaps and saying, look, and again, we're not pushing any of this, but the truth be told, like they need it anyways. A lot of times they know they need it. They don't necessarily want to go in and show it because you know, play the cards a little bit closer. They don't want to say, hey, we need this and like, you so come in and do that. But at the same time, we say, look, we can do this. And especially with these companies, as I mentioned, these sub one billion, a lot of times it's fallen on the CFO and that to them, it doesn't make sense for them to burn time on that. Their time is worth so much more somewhere else. So we can say to them, hey, we can handle this. It's easy, watch actually, right? And so there are times where, you know, we look at it as a business development investment, where if we're running the monthly BBAs, right, the budget versus actuals, and we see that the mechanism they're using a lot of times it starts in itself, you know, excels to us as our safety blanket, like we play the keyboard, like most our employees in Canada, right? And so we'll just build out a model and just say, hey, look, it'll take a day or two or some of that. For any large farm about, et cetera, that's listening, it doesn't take us a day or two to build the entire thing. We're just saying that's a module, right? So we'll just say, hey, look, this is an example of how things can be more streamlined and we'll work better. Take a look, letting you know, this is, like, we will not mess with your process. But if you do want to make things quicker and easier, try this, just try it, right? And so there is, I don't walk into these engagements because that would be disingenuous. I don't walk into these engagements saying, okay, this is a 90 day engagement. I'm going to book it for four years because that's not the way I looked at it. If at the end of that 90 days things are done, cool, we added our value, we succeeded. That said, I'm not going to lie to you, I would be disappointed if it didn't continue because I do know, and again, this is not a selfish thing. This is, I know that in this case, if we do this for you, it's going to benefit you. Yeah, it's going to benefit us, too. But that's why it's also hard and, you know, it is difficult. That initial 90 day engagement is hard to get. The transition from the 90 day to the 180, to the, you know, et cetera, that's a lot easier for us because it is something where they're like, oh, yeah, this is a no-brainer. Also on top of it, we're at the stage now where like, in the grand scheme of things, we're a lot cheaper than them hiring to full-time FD fully loaded to run the thing. And so, you know, being able, just to kind of summarize, to some extent, it's doing a better job on what you're supposed to be doing. But at the same time, we have developed a very keen eye to say, this is how things can be better and easier, and in the long run, more efficient and cheaper for you. And identifying those and having mechanisms in which to fill it, that doesn't alienate or, you know, the client or make it seem like you're forcing a different type of relationship. And I really think the clients also very much appreciate that. They're getting bombarded. I'm sure with people, like, consultancies, you're saying, oh, I can do this, they're being forced into use different companies and that kind of thing. And so, I do think that's another appreciation of them, understand, like, we're easy to work with, right? And so, that's basically what's been, what's been we've been looking for and what we've developed and the goals. And so, have you found that you, maybe a couple of others, have to continue to take the lead on the PD sales angle, or have you got to the point where it's actually the delivery people who are in those businesses that are starting to spot the opportunities and help progress it forwards. We'd love your perspective there. Yeah. So, that is one of the things, actually, that it loops in with my philosophy on the company itself, to some extent, getting great talent and developing that talent is very important. And one of the ways that we do that is being able to trust our people. So, it takes a long time for us to find the right people, it's a long time for us to train them. Yes, we have a training plan in place, we have mentorship, et cetera. But if we're looking at the caliber of people that we want, they want to succeed. They want to grow. They want those challenges, right? And a lot of these larger firms, okay, a year in, no, you are still a code monkey. You get in the back and you do what you're supposed to do. Second year, okay, maybe you can get on a caller too. Third year, okay, now you can run this, right? That's not the case with us. I do believe that if you've done it, if you've done the work, you probably know it better than I do. I'm saying that that's not the case, I know everything that we're doing, but the point is like, they've invested their blood, sweat, and tears into these things. If there is a highly detailed question that comes up, yeah, I'll know the answer. But so will they. And are they going to appreciate it if they're the ones on the call being able to present that? Yes, of course they will. That's at every level, right? So in the beginning, yes, the one off, the zero to one sales, that's been very hard to get for the people, for the team who don't have that network, who don't have those skills to some extent, and they need to go to those events, build those networks, kind of that kind of thing. That being said, the pull through sales aspect of it, that's different. So my William Boyd, his name's fantastic. And he has been doing the pull through sales because the point is again, he's, he is also and this is this applies to anyone who you're working with or something, but like, you have those people who are in that relationship with those clients who meet with them on a day-to-day basis, who are the ones presenting to the audit committee or the board or the ELP, they're the ones who are trust, that's the trust point. So if I were to get on some of these calls and I am routinely, I meet with the COOs and you know, CFOs as like generalized catch-ups once a week or so, but if I were to jump onto one of these calls, they'd be like, what's wrong? What happened? Why, like, Liam runs this, why are you, that kind of thing? So, but it's not just an immediate process. I mean, this has been something where it's like, okay, well, Liam and I will, will meet weekly by weekly, what have you, will do catch-ups and it's, they're still training that goes on, right? You say, okay, well, what are they asking? What do you think that we can do that may provide that? This is that training of identifying those gaps that I was talking about earlier. But that all takes investment from us and I do think that's something that is missing as you grow larger, which is, okay, you've hit a level where the rest of your trainings on you and I mean, I'm still learning on a daily basis. So I have my mentors, I listen to these people, of course it's going to happen to them. And so to answer your question, you know, I think from the zero to one right now it's Jeremy and I, from that one plus, it's a benefit not only to the team, but it's also a benefit to the company to be able to provide them those skills and training them with that. Really enjoyed the session day. Before we wrap up, there's always one final question that I ask, which is, if you were in my shoes asking yourself some questions, what bit of insight have I potentially missed? What else is worth sharing with the audience that we haven't covered yet to date? Guys, I don't know, I mean, I feel like you're an unbelievable interviewer and podcaster. I feel like you're very thorough. There's nothing you've done a wonderful job. You can take all these soundbites, your bends the best. So let's see, thinking about kind of your audience, what you've seen. I think a lot of it, it's tough because there are a handful of things that we can continue to talk about, whether it's the selling aspect, the business development, the formation, the form of the company culture, et cetera. The way that I would look at it, and I, you know, I don't think there's anything crucial that we didn't talk about, right? I think that one of the things that we had shared about at a high level is the idea of your team. How do you keep them involved? And that's, it's hard, especially nowadays, and again, you feel really old again, like back when I was an associate, it was like, this is what you did. This was the goal. This is the, these are the things that you have to do. And I don't think that's necessarily the mindset anymore. This kind of, you know, you look at it of control of firms, it's kind of flipped a little bit, and it's difficult. You want the teams to be involved, but at the same time, you also need to make sure that you're making a profit so that you can, you know, keep the lights on rewarded people. And my philosophy has always been that people will do better work when they're interested and invested in the work that they're doing. And so, it was a comment, I think, that you had made earlier, which is like, how do you, how do you keep it from like, how do you make sure not all, like, stay away from not all business is good, business type of thing? And that's hard, right? There may be projects that come in, you know, that you have to do 100 PMR interviews. And okay, better run that after 20, it's like, I bet I know what he's going to say, right? And so, I'm not saying that we, again, whoever's listening, we have mechanisms in which to take care of that. But I guess the point is that what I've tried to do is get people involved in the spaces that they want to be involved in. I respect them. I listen to them. If someone, it works with the HTIA, it works with, you know, we have someone who's very interested in AI and drug development. And so, if we don't have a project in that, that doesn't mean that we can't get them to work on that. What kind of internal initiatives, whether it's a white paper, a webinar, you know, we're building out our own homegrown AI, and he's running that, right? And so, I think as you go to some extent, it is also, let's say there is that 100 qualitative interview. Talk to people because the attitude of one person may not be the same as someone else, right? Someone may be stoked to run all these interviews. And so, I guess, comes back to, you know, the not all business is good business. It doesn't necessarily have to be that way. It may be and flow with it if it is kind of, it's only temporary. This project isn't forever type of thing. But at the same time, if they're invested in the firm because you've invested in them, they're not going to see projects as the hope is that they see projects for what they are and find the good things in those projects that will develop them, move them forward, move the company forward because they believe in the company, they believe in the leaders. And so, I think it's interesting because they keep coming back to this idea of like the optimism aspect, which you had highlighted. And I don't think it's a bad thing, like, and I'm not saying that you said it was. But I do know that there are people, I have very many conversations with people who are kind of, you know, you go up and then kind of knock back down a little bit because having that attitude isn't necessarily advantageous. But I guess the way I look at it, and this is something, again, that my father taught me a long time ago, which I am trying to instill in my children as well, is, you know, if I was frustrated with a sports game or a test or something, he was like, well, did you learn something? And I'd be like, well, yeah, I learned this. Like, well, then you didn't lose, right? So if you approach all of these engagements as if I didn't get the outcome I wanted, but I learned something or I got this one thing or I found that guy named Fred, then I win. Then I'm positive, then I'm happy. If I did get the output, then I win, then I'm happy, right? So I guess that persistency has very much helped. And I've had those, you know, those doldrum times where it's like, I'm so positive. But they go away, right? And that persistency, I think, has made all the difference because I believe in myself, I believe in my team. I have my wife and my partner and et cetera, and I think basically what I'm saying is I think the persistency and the looking at it in a way of, I'm going to succeed. It may not be in the way that I originally wanted to succeed, but I'm going to succeed. I think that's made a big difference. That's perfect. And that isn't something we covered, you did use the Fred piece which leads it really nicely back around. Rule of three, right? Pull it back like the stand-up comedians, but this has been wonderful. Thank you so much. Yeah. Really appreciate it. Hopefully, I look forward to talking you soon and good luck with everything. You suit. Thanks, Dave. Seem app is an operations platform for consulting firms. 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