From Alcohol to Sugar: Understanding Food Addiction in Recovery

Hey, everyone. Angela here. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to remind you that this is a special re-release from our Unlimited Life series. And there's a really good reason I'm bringing this conversation back. This episode with Ali Shapiro about food addiction and recovery is hands down one of the most requested episodes I've ever done. And honestly, I get it because if there's one thing I hear constantly from people in recovery, it's this, I put down the drink, but now I can't stop eating sugar. I quit drinking and now instead of drinking in the evening, I'm eating in the evening. What's wrong with me? And the answer is, nothing is wrong with you. And that's exactly what we're unpacking today. Ali and I dive deep into why we turn to food when we don't want to. The connection between belonging and emotional eating and this brilliant framework called tail that will completely change how you understand your food triggers. Plus, we talk about one simple nutritional shift that can eliminate sugar cravings almost overnight. And I promise it's not what you think. If you've been struggling with food in your recovery, feeling ashamed about your eating habits or wondering if you've just traded one addiction for another, this conversation is going to be a game changer. And if you want personalized support with me, head over to addiction unlimited.com/call to book a free consultation call with me. If you're ready for real transformation in your life, we can talk about what's going on for you and figure out the best path forward. And of course, that link is in the show notes. Alright, let's get into this incredible conversation with Ali Shapiro. Hey everybody, welcome to the Addiction Unlimited podcast where you get to learn everything you want to know about addiction and recovery. I'm your host, Angela Pugh, co-founder of Kansas City Recovery, Life Coach and Recovery in Alcoholic. To learn more about me, you can listen to episode zero on your podcast app or find us on the web at AddictionUnlimited.com. Hi, Ali. Thank you so much for coming on and doing this show with me. Of course, Angela, I'm so glad we've connected. Our work is overlapped a lot. So we're going to have a good time for sure. So just start with telling everybody a little bit about you and what you do. Yeah, so I think the best way to understand me is probably my story. So I grew up in the 80s and grew up with Richard Simmons, Snack Wells, all those good memories. I love Richard Simmons. And Tee Elimeal, his diet plan. And then I really struggled with my weight. And I didn't understand what the time would happen. But I thought at the time, like everyone in the 80s that weight was calories and calories out. But when I was around seven, eight years old, I actually had a pesticide exposure. I was doing gymnastics on a friend's yard. And they had just had their yard sprayed with chem law, which is basically roundup. And I had a horrible reaction for two weeks. The doctors didn't know it was going on. And I just lived in a milk bath. That was a treatment and kind of went on my way. But I started to gain weight after that. And now looking back with what I know, I was really inflamed. Right? It's like, that's what was certain, the weight gain. But I was like, I got to lose this weight. So when I was 11, I went to weight watchers for the first time. And I was good at first, you know? And then I couldn't stick with it. And then two years later, I was diagnosed with cancer. So I think that's also really important to recognize, you know, pesticide exposure. Few years later, I was bullied in between there where I started to emotionally eat. I would come home and eat bagels because the girls didn't like me at school. And when you're a fifth grade girl, all you want is the popular girls to like you. But then a couple years after that, I was diagnosed with cancer. And so I went through chemotherapy and radiation. And I actually lost a ton of weight on chemo. Turns out when you can't eat and you throw a lot, you lose weight. But because it was the 80s and 90s and we didn't have a lot of different types of information, I had just equated thinness with health. And so I was like, I have to stay thin. Part of it was vanity and wanting to be popular and like by boys and fit into clothing. But it was also this like belief of like, I need to stay thin to be healthy, right? Even though I wasn't able to reconcile that I got to the thinnest weight I was as a teenager because I was so sick, right? Like I didn't, that did not compute yet. And so then in high school, I was able to pretty much outrun my bad eating, right? Like my friends and I would always joke, "Diet starts tomorrow." We would like go out and eat, but they were all thin. And I was really, and I felt like I had to run and run to keep it off. And then when I went to college, that transition really took my emotional eating and turned it more into overeating, binging obsession with weight loss. And at the same time, I started having, I was always had trouble with acne, but I and I had tried antibiotics. I had tried acutane. I had always struggled with depression after, after cancer, obviously. I mean, I didn't put together that it was probably the trauma from all of that. But and I had been trying all different kinds of antidepressants. And then when I got my first job, I was diagnosed with irritable bowel syndrome. And in my mind, all of these problems were because of my weight. I was still battling my weight then, you know, always like, "Oh, you can lose 20 pounds, 30 pounds." And to kind of bring up what really changed my life was when I was about 26, I found a holistic nutrition school. And I know you're very familiar with this. This was the school that taught me about the politics of food, about how food companies are like trying to make us eat more. Like they they do that with smell, they do that with chemicals and all this stuff. And it was at the Institute for Integrative Nutrition, where I went where I really I found functional medicine. And just for listeners to understand this was 20 years ago. So it was kind of a lonely place to be back then. And I learned that food could be medicine. It wasn't just calories and about weight loss. And when I pieced together was that my IBS, my depression and my acne were largely a result of gut health that had been damaged from chemotherapy and steroids. And then all the antibiotics I was trying to take for my skin. We need antibiotics, but we don't need them for our skin. And so I was able to lose 15 pounds as a side effect of healing my gut and really understanding blood sugar. And I was like, "Everyone needs to know about this." So I also was like, "But is this just me?" So I had a corporate job. And I started seeing people on the side. But then what I would notice is that after about the fourth session, we stopped talking about food. And like you always say, it's like, "Okay, what's underneath the alcohol?" Right? It's like, "Oh, what was underneath the food?" And because this was a different media environment, I really thought I was the only one who had a crazy relationship with food. I was like, "Everyone else is normal." Has it figured out? Right? It was probably people who feel alcohol. I was like, "I'm the crazy one." And clients would disclose, "No, I feel crazy around food too as well." And in parallel process, I would find that whenever I was stressed, I would turn sugar. So in the cancer world, we call it scans IED season, which is when your scans are scheduled, you're going in to see, "Is the cancer still gone?" And I was also being monitored for secondary cancers for thyroid and breast because I had radiation. And I knew I had learned that cancer feeds on sugar. But the six weeks between scheduling the appointment, waiting to meet the oncologist to find my fate, I would binge on sugar. And I'm like, "Why can't I keep this up? I feel amazing. It would aggravate my depression, my anxiety." And then like whenever I wanted to meet someone, I had been traveling for work a lot in my early 20s and I was like, "I want a date." And whenever I would think about dating, I'd be like, "Well, I have to wait until I lose weight." And then I would like eat, eat. Like, and it made no sense to me. So I was like, "What's going on? I have a lot of willpower. I have a lot of discipline. Like you, I had all the outward success markers, right? Of like a great house and a fancy job, international travel. And what I decided to go to grad school to study, like, what is this? Because it's, I'm learning this isn't just a knee problem. And at the time, America was continuing to gain weight, right? And I was like, "What is going on culturally?" And so I went to grad school at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia to really understand, why do people turn to food when they don't want to be? And that's where I created my "Trust with Food" methodology and have been working and iterating that for the past 16 years. So that's, that's kind of a very long version of my story and the work I do in the world. That's it in a nutshell. Okay, so the first thing I want to ask is, how do you know? Because we talk about this a lot in the drinking world. And I do tend to kind of think about overeating, like any food issues, our kind of food addiction, but probably not always. There is some different pathology, I think, with food stuff. But there is so much overlap in even the emotional pieces. There is so much overlap. So, you know, it's eating disorders and anorexia and bulimia and overeating. And now it's disordered eating. And I feel like it is very challenging if you have struggles with food. It's very challenging to figure out where you fit in all of that, right? Because I understand that I have a problematic relationship with food on some level, probably food addiction, right? Because I'm an addicted person, so I'm compulsive. And I just, you know, I only know how to go too far. So in anything. So, you know, to me, it always felt right. to say I'm a food addict, I'm food addicted. But how do you know when your relationship with food has gotten unhealthy? Because like I never fit the eating disorder things, many of them. I never fit the criteria for anorexia or bulimia or binge eating. I didn't fit any of those things. So it's kind of hard. It's like, well, do I have this problem? Am I overthinking it? Like is this just another compulsive behavior that has an addicted person I have to be mindful of? Like how do you sort all of that out? Yeah, I think that's such a great question because we need diagnoses to get clarity. Like you talked about like, okay, once I knew I was an alcoholic, I knew the right issue and then I could get the solution. And what I found in grad school and why I think food is a little bit different because I work with a lot of sober people. I love working with sober people. We can talk about why if you want to talk about that. But what I found in grad school is that food is actually from a very early age, literally from when we're in our mother is womb. What our mother eats becomes our bones, our blood, our body. And so when we come out, food is coupled with attachment. Right? So we have, when you're a baby, your two needs are fed and touched. Like that's what you need to get through. And really attachment is supposed to lead and then food is secondary. And what happens and nature wants it to be that way so that food actually stimulates attachment chemicals. But there's a difference between attachment and belonging. And attachment is, and they're used interchangeably. But attachment is, people have my back, someone is looking out for me. Right? And as a kid, right, you need someone to be looking out for you because I don't know about you, Angela, but I couldn't really take care of myself, like fully functioning until I graduated from college and could get a decent job. Right? Like I was like, I needed food shelter water from my parents. And so as kids, that attachment, it is so important that we stay attached to our caregivers. Right? But what happens as kids is food starts becoming about the longing in a way. Oh, you got good grades. I don't know about you, but we had pizza hut, book it. So book it was sponsored by pizza hut, surprisingly, you know, a food corporation. And if you read five books, you got a free pan pizza. Or I remember being little and being like, really afraid to jump off the diving board. And my dad was like, if you jump off the diving board, we're going to Dunkin Donuts. And I was like, done. You know, I was like, can and ball, Bradley Danger for you. You know, listen, I would probably do that today for Dunkin Donuts. And none of this is inherently wrong. And but what ends up happening is we start realizing like, oh, food is a reward. Or, you know, I started eating bagels when I was being bullied rather than tell my parents, I feel shame. I feel like an outsider. I felt shame about my shame. And I didn't want them to know. So I turned to bagels because food stimulates those attachment chemicals. And our peers, believe it or not, where a lot of people start to go into the disordered eating realm in middle school high school, our peers are just as important as our caretakers as kids. So what happens is belonging involves a deeper risk of showing up as we are. You talked about your just on my podcast and you talked about like, I need to be able to stand on my own two feet. Like drinking can't change how I show up on my own two feet, right? And that's same with food. But belonging requires a deeper risk, whereas food can still give us almost the stimulation of belonging. But it's not quite the same. And Dr. Gordon Newfield, who mentored Dr. Deborah McNair, who has just talked about this in her book, nourished, he says there's nothing quite as adicting as something that almost works. And so I love that quote because it's like food almost works. It almost works to make us feel connected and that we belong. And so to your question, I see anorexia especially and like, binging and purging as acute belonging risks. Like you actively feel like you don't belong and it is, it feels annihilating to your ego. For example, one woman I know, she had a huge identity as a track runner. And then she got injured in college. And that is when she became anorexic because the belonging of her teammates, how she got her success in the world was severed, right? And so for people who are overeating, emotional eating as me, I never like you. I never had a diagnosable eating disorder, but it was ruining my life. It was like, oh, there were certain ways that I wanted to have success in my life that weren't happening. And so that wasn't as a, and it's all relative to the person, right? What, what feels detrimental to them? But I would binge around cancer scans, I had a season because that binging was so much more of a, I feel unsafe. What if I don't get to live the life I want to live because I might die? Right? That was so much more intense than, God, my job is so boring, but I'm stressed about it. So I'm just going to say I deserve this at night eating. So that's how I see it is. It's the degree of belonging that we feel we're missing out on that determines how intense our eating issues are. So that's the first answer. Does that, does that help you? Because it's an invisible string of belonging that wants you to an into it. For sure. Well, yeah, it makes perfect sense because we have this same kind of undercurrent in, in addiction as well, right? Like there is this overwhelming sense of never belonging or never fitting in anywhere. And I always thought that I was the only person that felt that way, right? Because you feel so apart from, you know, in 12 steps, we talk about a part of and apart from. And my whole life, I felt so separated and apart from because I just didn't fit anywhere. You know, I wasn't pretty enough to be a part of the pretty girls, you know, I wasn't my lifestyle was very different. I had a chaotic home, which made me separate even more and not fit. And there were just so many things. And I felt like the whole world was living in this one circle. And they were all healthy and doing their thing and having healthy relationships and coming from healthy, high functioning families. And I felt like I was in this other circle all by myself looking over at the circle full of the rest of the world thinking, "Well, why can't I be in there?" Like, what is wrong with me that I'm over here and that I'm so different. And I'm not worthy or acceptable or whatever the thing is. I don't even know what it would have been as a really young person, but that carried through my whole entire life, right? I always felt less than, not good enough and I didn't fit anywhere until I walked into my first AA meeting. And I was like, "Holy shit, these are my people." You know, like I finally found my freaking people. So yes, I absolutely get that. And I would have never thought of it in those terms, but that makes perfect sense. And I love that you use the word separate because that's how it shows up on a day-to-day basis. This word's attachment and belonging show up as I feel isolated, I feel separate. And my background is really in developmental psychology. And part of this is just as we're growing up, we make everything about us. We don't have quite, it's not like a character flaw. It's just part of the developmental process. So it's like what you're social and it's really an emotional immune system, which is an anxiety management system, was like, you could sense that something was wrong at home, right? It's like, yes, Angela, that was your spidey sense, that was really smart. But then if we want to belong, we have to think, "Oh my God, I have to look at how everyone else is, I'm assuming." And we think in very binary terms as kids, like things are good or bad, good or bad. So this feels bad. So then our perception becomes everything else is good, right? And you project that everyone is in this warm loving, "Oh, we all feel great circle, right?" And it's the same with alcohol and thinness, the marketing and the cultural conditioning tells you everyone is there who's drinking or thin, having that feeling of togetherness and belonging. It's the same thing Big Tobacco did back in the day, right? Like cigarettes was so sexy and mysterious and like you wanted to be those people, some people wanted to be that damn Marble Man. Totally, totally, exactly. Make it cool, make it sexy, and that is the bigger I think issue than even because belonging is so primal to our survival, because of what I said, like as a kid, you literally cannot survive without it. And what Dr. Debra McNamara in her book, NERSH talks about, is that Maslow gave us our hierarchy of needs, right? And we all use that. But what she said is Maslow One didn't have the benefit of neuroscience. And neuroscience now shows us that we get more stress from that separateness than, you know, not having our basic needs met, because again, if you're part of a group, you're more likely to procure your basic needs. But I thought it was really interesting in her book, she talks about, Maslow didn't have a great relationship with his parents. So how would he even know? to know what belonging and attachment felt like. Right? So as a theorist, he had his own blind spot. It's not to negate his whole entire work. But I think because belonging is invisible, we can't necessarily measure it. It's easier to dismiss. But it's so primal to our well-being. And that's why AA, you felt so at home there. And I mean, you did the work. And I think the community gives us a sense of belonging to take the risks that we need to do to get better with whether it's alcohol or that's why I do so much of my work in groups because the group becomes the safety attachment that we need that we often didn't have to work out these kind of things. Yeah, there's a line that I think Glennon Doyle had in one of her books. She said, "It's amazing how much higher you can jump when you have a safe place to land." Oh, oh my god, it's beautiful. That is so beautiful. It's beautiful. And it's so true, right? And you're exactly right. That is definitely what AA provided for me. Right? Like I was willing to push myself more and try harder and jump higher because I had a safe spot to land. Yeah. And if you come from a dysfunctional family, right? It's like, oh my god, I don't have that safety. And life is paradoxical and to take risks, it doesn't, you don't need to feel like everything's going to go your way, but you need to, you need to feel there's a place to go back and lick your wounds to then do it again, right? And if you, so if you don't have that, it becomes really hard to show up in the ways that we want to show up. You know, it's challenging too because we do require connection. And the one thing that people ask for the number one thing that people say they need when they're getting sober is support. At the same time, it is the one thing that people are the least willing to to figure out and go out and create, right? It's like you want support, but we are so driven to isolate. And we are so driven to be in the safety of our little bubble because it's so fearful to go out and mix and mingle with the people and let people see you for what you really are. And I'm a true believer in, you know, most of the time when people don't like 12 steps, it doesn't have anything to do with 12 step meetings, right? Like AA doesn't do anything. It's a room that we sit in. Like there's nothing magical about going to an AA meeting. So it's not that AA works or doesn't work. It's up to you as the individual to work or not work. But I think when people don't dig it, it's because they're still in that struggle within themselves to really accept where they are in this journey. And that makes it challenging to step into a room of people. And be honest about like this is my deal, like people don't like the word alcoholic anymore. I am so damn proud to be an alcoholic like that is a badge of honor for me. And to be honest, it's kind of offensive that people have so much pushback against that term. Now it's very offensive to me because I'm really proud of that, right? And it changed my life. And it is exactly who and what I am. But if you struggle with that level of acceptance, of course, you're not going to want to step in rooms with other people. And I have this even in my private groups where people want to show up to meetings and leave their camera off. And I'm like, let's say you're definitely not getting sober if that's how you're approaching this thing because when it comes time to get sober, like it's balls to the wall, like you have to just put yourself out there and ask for freaking help. And all of that fight and hiding and shame has to go on the back burner because that's the only way to get help. Yeah, I always say to my clients, like the obstacle is the path. And like what I think again, you're describing is the shame. And I know, and again, there's there's overlap with our work and there's probably some differences. But I always encourage because also because of how we develop as adults, often when we're in that shame, we're in the binary of like wrong and right, right? Like, yeah, the right thing. Am I saying the right thing? Or am I going to say the wrong thing? And so with my clients, I'm like, what feels like the next manageable risk to disclose? Like you don't have to like in my groups, we obviously, but probably very similar to you, we do a lot of deep like looking back, like what I mean, it's we do one lesson of looking back interest with food. We're really looking at the present. But I'm like, what's one step of like disclosure that feels? Oh, that's that's the manageable risk for today. So then you can start to feel that safety of like, oh, no one's judging me yet, you know, like that can sometimes be why people I think struggle so much getting support because they're in the binary of wrong and right. So worried about saying the wrong thing versus being like, okay, what is one thing I can disclose? In my groups, we like experiment with was that safe? And safety does not mean that you're in a bubble wrap and that life is going to, you know, it means do I have my own back? Did I act out of my values? That's how that's how the adult sense of psychological safety is built. It's not built. You have to become that soft place for yourself to land. You need other people to like mirror that for you because we're social creatures. But it's like, am I going to keep showing up? Like can I trust myself to take those risks? So I do think when people are struggling with that, it's like, yeah, we tell all of ourselves the stuff, this chatter to protect being like, that's why I don't need people. That's why I don't need to show up. But I think people can think of just like, what's the one, at least that's, you know, one more thing to disclose. For example, one of my clients, who was sober, actually, I work with a lot of sober clients. And my truth with food group, we do this timeline of, we look at the stories that make us turn to food. What are the stories that make us feel like we don't belong? And she had a really neglectful background. And she, she reached out to me, which I always encourage people to do. And she's like, I'm not ready to share this whole thing with the group. And I'm like, well, that doesn't mean you have to not show up. Like, is there certain things that you're comfortable sharing? She's like, oh, yeah, you know, but what was really interesting was by the end, as she realized that people weren't judging her and that we were all working through the same stuff, she could disclose to everyone, but it took her that long. And I wanted her to be able to trust her process of like, you know, okay, this is, this feels comfortable now. So, and again, food outlaw can be different. I think there is an important distinction here too. And I love what you're saying because listen, I wasn't out and proud from minute one either. You know what I mean? Like, that was a journey. I knew that. I knew pretty quickly that I wanted to dedicate my whole life to recovery. But I was, I didn't have a podcast in my first year. So, I was like, we're so open about your weight journey. And I'm like, you're so vulnerable. Like, it doesn't feel vulnerable to me anymore. But no, I've not done this 20 years ago. Yes, exactly. Exactly. But there is this, you know, I talk about the difference in being private and being secretive. And you talking about that shame piece really triggered this thought for me because it's okay to be private. Like, just because you show up to any kind of group doesn't mean you have to tell every grueling secret of your history. It's okay to be private as your trust and comfort level builds. What you don't want to be is secretive because when you're secretive, you're hiding something and you're hiding it because you're shameful. And that's a very different animal, right? So show up, have privacy, have discretion. That's fantastic. You can get there in your own time. And I think it's such an important distinction to make. And I love that you said that like that binary, like right and wrong because that is that is kind of how we think, you know, am I doing this right? Do they think I'm doing this right? Am I going to look stupid? Like, it's all the judgments and, you know, it's okay to be quiet. People think too that, especially going to 12 steps and because I make my living talking, right? Obviously, I'm never at a loss for words. But you know, when I go to meetings, I don't share. It is very rare when it comes to me. I mean, from day one, like, it is just an ongoing joke in my group because I'm like, Hey, everybody, I'm Angela. I'm an alcoholic. Glad to be here today. I'm just going to listen. And it's done, right? And I've been saying that for almost 20 years. So you don't. And it's not any certain thing, right? It's one, I just want to soak it in and meetings really are my opportunity to just shut up. And I really appreciate those opportunities because my whole life is me talking. So I love to just shut up. But I just want to soak in all that good information. And if when the topic comes up, if something authentically comes to me, of course, I will share my experience. But I'm not going to like manufacture something to say just to be talking, right? So I love to just be quiet. And I think it's such an important thing to let people know, like, it's okay to just be quiet. You don't have to share all the things. It's okay. All the ways of doing it are okay. But I love your distinction, right? Because that helps keep people honest between secretive or disc, I'm using use the word discretion, but it was secretive or private. Yeah, I can drive it. Because that's the trick, right? They could both look like the same behaviors, but what is the of not sharing, but what's the intention behind it? It's the underlying intention, right? And that's what always makes the difference. It's your intention, what is what always makes the difference. And this is a huge thing in relapse too, where a lot of us living alcohol free will have these weird little moments or accidents where we end up taking a drink of alcohol. And I have one of those stories, right, where I was in a bar and I ordered a red bull, and they poured it in a glass, and they just assumed that I said vodka red bull, 'cause super loud, I'm screaming across the bar. And of course they don't expect somebody to not be drinking in a nightclub. And she hands me the glass, and I didn't really think anything of it, and I took a big drink. And as soon as the vodka hit my mouth, I burst into tears, I spit it out. I was with my boyfriend at the time, and he's like, babe, what's going on? And I was like, I have to go to the bathroom, and I just ran, you know? And it freaked me out, because I didn't know what was gonna happen. And I was pretty newly sober. I was only a couple of years sober. And I didn't know what was gonna happen, you know? Like I felt like it was such a sort of violation for lack of a better word, you know, that I had this thing that was such an enemy to me, and then all of a sudden I was invaded, you know? And I was scared that it was a relapse. So of course I go home, I call my sponsor, and I'm just crying, and I'm a mess. And my sponsor was like, Angela, you didn't do anything on purpose. You didn't go to the bar, your intent was not to get alcohol, your intent was not to drink. This is just something that happened. This is not a relapse, it's an accident, right? And it was, I mean I was so relieved of course, but it freaked me out, but it was a great lesson in the intent, right? Your intent is really the deciding factor in what you're doing, and why you're doing it. (laughing) - Well, I think that actually circles back to your original question of like when is food tipping to a point? I think when people had the intent of, I want to want to eat healthy, I wanna eat healthy, and I'm not doing that. And there could be health effects for that. It could be just, I'm not following through, and it's wearing away at my self-trust, right? So I think that's what I would say is the intent factor around when food becomes unmanageable, I guess. - Oh man, that self-trust, like this is so big. I did not have any for the majority of my life, right? And I find now that it is one of the driving factors in my life, like it is so important to me to follow through on things. That does not mean perfect, right? It doesn't mean that I'm hitting it out of the park every day and nailing every goal to a tee. It doesn't mean that at all, but it is a driving factor. And like I made this agreement with myself, and damn it, I am going to show up for myself because so many things and situations and people in the world are going to disappoint me, I can't be one of them. Yeah. In my "Why Miding This Now" group program and "Trust with Food," that is the basis of what we're reconstructing and repairing a self-trust, and not abandoning ourselves in these situations where we feel we might not belong. 'Cause then it's like what ends up happening is, people think they're perfectionists, but I'm like, that's a safety strategy of avoiding risk, right? Like if I think I do this perfectly, I think I'm either going to definitely succeed, everyone's going to like me, things are going to go according, I'm going to be safe, right? Like under the umbrella of psychological safety, success, everyone loves me, and no one's disappointed, and you know, and it's like by having self-trust, you're like, I can figure it out as I go, right? I know I've got me. And so people sort of realize, oh, I'm not a perfectionist. That was just a safety strategy against not trusting myself to show up, even when it gets hard, when it gets messy. So I love that you just highlight itself to us, 'cause I think that's the backbone of everything. - It is, it's the backbone of any major change you want to make in your life for sure. And it's also what makes us stumble. It's what makes us get stuck in those relapse patterns and those stories that we tell ourselves and not believing in ourselves, and oh, you never follow through, why is this time gonna be any different? You know, I always let myself down when I was younger and less healthy. I always bailed on me. I didn't have my back in any way, and then I would be so heartbroken when other people didn't have my back, right? But if I don't have my back, I can't teach other people how to have my back. - Yeah, I'll go through that. - And I know some of my clients, that's becomes like a really great shortcut for them for self-trust, 'cause we know, I don't think we walk around thinking like, I don't have any self-trust. We're just more like, why am I doing this? - Yes. - Why am I doing this? - Yes. - But I think that I've got my back, I think that's how people can start to like, as a takeaway to be like, this is how I start repairing that self-trust. And to your point, if there is relapse or like with my clients when they don't follow through on their food, I'm always like, why does this make sense? What job did food have that night, right? And it's like, let's really get to these layers underneath this, because it's not about well power and discipline. It's 100%. - Yeah. - So the work of self-trust is not getting it right. It's being committed to figuring out the root so that you can work eventually, you know, get it right. We always kind of expect ourselves to be where we need to end up instead of where we need to start. Right? - Mm. - Yeah, for sure. So highlight for me, for the audience, really, the similarities with food and sugar, because this is something that we talk about a lot also. I mean, obviously food is a huge topic in addiction and recovery. Sugar for sure is a huge topic, and we have a tendency to put down our addiction and pick up food and sugar. I love what you just said about what was food's job that time or that night, whatever. And I'd love for you to get a little bit more into that and also on the sugar side of it, and if they are the same. - Yeah. Yeah, so in my why am I eating this now, group, one of the first things that we do the first week is like, when you start thinking of food, and for a lot of people it is sugar. And I think especially given that I have a lot of sober clients, you start to realize that there's a lot of malnourishment going on, right? So it's like your body has to heal to be able to extract nutrition. People think metabolism is just about calories burn, calories. But it's like, no, there's all these biological processes underneath that. So there's that, and then there's also not understanding. And this goes beyond the sober community, but not understanding how blood sugar works. So I'm going to talk about the emotional job that it does, but blood sugar, and just like for anyone struggling for sugar cravings, try adding more protein, and you will balance protein. - And such like, it's so crazy. Like I just learned this maybe two years ago, and it's like when I'm getting the right amount of protein for me and the level that I work out, I don't think about sugar at all. It's very strange to me. Yeah, because I've been a sugar addict my whole freaking life and to understand, like, dude, just eat your damn protein. And it removes this whole layer of difficulty from my life, you know, it's incredible. - Yeah, yeah. Well, and that's why, I mean, you know, I don't have a definitive answer to this, but I wonder if is food addiction real or do we not understand physiology, how our food supply is fucked up, and then we don't understand emotional food noise. So I think there's like two layers to food noise. There's, if you aren't getting the right nutrition, that doesn't mean calories, calories are different, but if you're not getting protein and you need it, your body's gonna be thinking of food, because like, this is the first time in human history, we've had more food available to us than we actually need. So the body's like, go find food. You know, there might be a famine coming up, you know? But the emotional work, which is I think where a lot of, the narrative around food falls short, and what I'm trying to change is, so there's four main triggers that I think people can think of next time they're going for sugar or just food in general, but it tends to be an explain why sugar is part of these triggers specifically is I always ask my clients to say, okay, rather than, what's my problem? Oh my God, don't need to do it. Be like, why does this make sense? Okay, what is at the tail end of this food noise? And tea stands for tiredness. And I don't think people realize how tired they are. And so what ends up happening, especially sugar, we turn to it as the solution to keep going at three o'clock. Oh, I got more work to do, right? I gotta be productive. Or I'm thinking about, you know, I had a kid really late in life. I'm like, oh, I see why nature wants you to have kids earlier. I am exhausted by the time the day is over, and then I have to do, you know, what they call the second shift. And it's like, oh, okay, sugar, now again, I've worked through this, But sugar could easily be how. I power through to go get my son from daycare and do all the things that we need to do at night, right? So exhaustion and tiredness is a huge job that food serves. A stands for anxiety, but really what I think of it is is uncertainty. And this is uncertainty that comes from the outside. So if you, for example, think of COVID, right? So many people's alcohol and sugar intakes, like our health just took a horrible die because it was like, what's going on with the virus? What's going on with lockdown? Oh my god, the America hates each other now. There's just a lot like, who can I talk to things about? Who can I not, you know? And so uncertainty from the outside. And again, if we go back to what we talked about in the beginning of this, food is coupled with attachment. And what is breast milk, but sugar and fat sugar. So this is primal, right? It's like, oh my god, if I need some sort of grounding, or I need to feel safe, sugar and food become that grounding. And again, this isn't inherently bad. And I think this is the nuance of food and where food and alcohol are a little bit different, is that whenever we have rituals or thresholds in our lives or whenever we were more connected to the land, what we ate grounded us in the seasons. It was like, oh, okay, you know, it's spring. We eat, we eat vegetables now to clear out the mucus. When it's summer, we eat fruit, right? Food grounded us. It oriented us. And that's not a bad thing. But when it's like refined sugar and it's serving the the role of safety and belonging and attachment, that's when it's like, okay, that's not its job. So tiredness, anxiousness, which is uncertainty from the outside, then inadequacy is the eye. And I think of this as uncertainty from the inside, self-doubt, when we feel too much, not enough, right? So like you were talking about like growing up, it was like, I wasn't quite pretty enough to be in the pretty girl group, right? And then when we were talking about, my podcast was when you moved to LA, that's when your relationship with food and alcohol kind of took a die, right? Because it was like, oh, if I'm not it, if I wasn't enough in Kansas City, you know, I live in Pittsburgh and this isn't doing what to see Amy Schumer. And she's like, I'm a Pittsburgh 10, you know, we were like totally laughing because it's like, okay, if you go to LA, you're probably like, like, what, an LA, I mean, I don't know, you know, I'm not judging her looks. But it's like, I can imagine going to a place like LA where it's like, oh my god, the whole emphasis is on looks and everything. It's like that inadequacy is like, so that belonging gets severed even more, right? So it's like, oh my god. So whenever we feel not enough or too much, and that can be at our jobs as a parent, as a caregiver for our parents, you know, whatever it is coming off social media and feeling like someone else is living their best life and you're unloading the dishwasher again. And then the L is loneliness and loneliness is really defined as our social needs being met. So we can, to your point, be around other people, right? As your experience growing up, but you didn't, you finally didn't feel lonely in LA and in AA because your social needs were being met. You could be seen. And this is where that difference between connection and belonging really comes in like can't and I love you, you used on my podcast, the parade, can you stand on your own two feet and share what is authentic to you? What is emergent in that moment that is important? And that could be I need to order gluten free because I'm struggling with my autoimmune issues. It could be I, you may think I'm overweight and I still want dessert and I'm letting it get dessert, right? It's like, but it's like, this is really when I want to order or a lot of my friends are like, I'm sorry, a lot of my clients are like, I want to want to eat healthy. But then when everyone else is just ordering it, I'm like, Oh, right? It's like they want to connect, but they don't aren't getting that belonging when they don't actually want dessert, but they're just doing it because it will provide the connection that showing up authentically of saying, dude, I know I always order dessert, but I realize I'm just doing that to go with the flow and my sweet, my favorite Swedish saying is only dead fish go with the flow. You know, it's like sharing like where we are in our process. So those, those triggers, what's at the tail end of this tired, anxious, which is really uncertain here on the outside in adequacy, self-doubt from the inside and then loneliness are the, the both with our food and why we turn to food is are the main triggers that food serves as that job. Wow. I think I said when I was on your podcast too, like I put a lot of responsibility on food like to do these jobs for me. I really do and I realized this several years ago that's like, God, Angela, you've got a lot of expectations on dinner, you know? Like I don't think that's how it's supposed to be. Like, yeah, and that was a major mindset shift to of getting, getting to a place of eating for nourishment, really eating to nourish my body and thinking of it in that way was a huge game changer instead of just having those expectations of food to perform a job for me, you know, because it is, it's comfort, it's, it is connection often, right? Whether it's going out to dinner with friends or using it as the thing to go out to dinner or, you know, coffee shop or something with friends like it, I just put a lot of responsibility on freaking food. I feel bad for it. I was just in Philadelphia visiting my sister who still lives there and I met with a client and we, they were doing the Broad Street run, which is this like famous 10 mile run. And we met in a hotel because it was, it was just the central point. And the line, like the runners had all come into this coffee shop and the line was so long. And she was like, do you really need anything to eat or drink? And I'm like, no, do you? She's like, no, I'm like, all right, let's just talk. But I know this, but it's still felt weird to just be like, okay, we're just going to sit in this hotel lobby without holding something in our hands. Right. Right. I mean, we knew each other well enough so that we could even say that. But I was like, I can imagine how this could feel awkward. If you weren't, if you didn't, you know, I don't know. I could just imagine how it feels awkward. But yeah, we get food. And I think what's tricky and where some of the nuance comes in with food is that like, I always use the example birthday parties because my son goes to a lot of them. And I go to those parties and I never know if I'm going to eat cake or not. But sometimes my son's like, well, you have some with me. And so it's like, sometimes I want us to connect that way. But what I do is I know I go there with my blood sugar balanced. And I know that I can eat a couple bites. And then that's it because the point is for hit because kids often share food to connect with like that makes them feel connected. So it's like, okay, he eats two bites and then runs off. There's no reason that I need to eat, you know, more than that. And again, I'm in a place with my with where food is really serving no job for me. But in that moment, it is holistic nourishment for me to be like, right, let's let's share some icing, you know. So yeah, you know what I think about in those moments and I'm so glad you brought this up because I have a ton of nieces and nephews. And I take my anti-duties very seriously. I try to be with them as much as humanly possible. And and they're phenomenal, you know. But I am so aware of her so mindful of really trying to not enforce any of my neuroses on them, right. And this comes up in a lot of different ways because I am a high anxiety person in a lot of ways. I'm very calm, cool and collected. But I freak out about stuff. It's just more internal. It doesn't come out externally because I've had all these years to work on myself and I have emotion regulation and all that stuff. But I'm a high anxiety person and all the food stuff and appearance stuff for me, you know, I definitely have body dysmorphia and you know, living in an environment for a couple of decades that appearance is kind of the most valued and important thing. I have all of the side effects from those couple of decades. And I don't want to put any of that stuff on my littles. And this has been a thing with sugar, for sure, where I don't necessarily want to say no because I don't want them to feel like they're doing anything wrong. And they take a lot of those cues from you as the adults in their lives, right, where they will kind of put a judgment on, oh, maybe this is bad. Like, Auntie doesn't want any. Maybe I shouldn't have any. You know, like, I don't want to put any of that on them. You know, even like, especially with my little niece, like, she's 11. Like, I try to never put too much emphasis on appearance things. You know, like, I will compliment her because she's starting to do a little bit of makeup and stuff and she's so precious. And I will compliment her on her choices and the times she spent the commitment she made to doing it, right? But I don't say like, oh, you look so pretty or, you know, not that I don't tell her she's pretty, but I just don't want to overemphasize those things because I don't want them to be hyper aware of those things because it's cost me a lifetime of heartache. You know, struggling with all of that stuff. So I'm super mindful with the food stuff also that I want them to feel comfortable and I will talk about healthy versus not healthy or good for my body, not good for my body, good for my gut, not good for my gut. Like, I will We'll talk about those things in a very short time. sort of objective way and my four-year-old nephew sent me. He's like, "Anti, what does good for you mean?" - Oh my God, he's the Buddha. (laughing) - How do you even know that I was anti-Angela? - I know, and I was like, oh gosh, I'm trying to tell him something that he has zero understanding of. You know, but it was this beautiful moment where I realized I needed to kind of walk it back and put it in a way that he can understand. So yeah, I just love that you brought that up and the importance of those interactions, especially with our littles, you know, because it does, we create a lot of their outlooks and then eventually, they're hang-ups, right? Just like it was instilled in me from other people. - Yeah, but you know what, it's interesting. I love that you, though, do say like, good for my body, bad for my body, 'cause I think this is, again, another nuanced thing, but there's the emotional reality that no one should ever, I believe, should never be judged based on their body size or their looks. And then the struggles worth is independent of that. And then we have biological realities. And for kids, especially, food companies target them. And kids metabolic health is set when they're young. And I've really had this own internal battle. I mean, we just don't have a lot of sugar at home, but like we went for ice cream this weekend, it was like the beginning of summer and all that stuff. But it's this fine line of like telling ESSA, like, you don't, we don't drink soda. Like why? And he's really wants to run fast. And I'm like, that won't help you run faster. I was like, no one would be like, I used that one too. - Yeah, so it's like, connecting that because it does influence their health. And I think understanding attachment and belonging, like we had his birthday party at this park back in October. My brother-in-law is like, we are so impressed with ESSA's discipline around cake. And I'm like, it's not discipline, it's belonging. Like all his friends are there. He, we loved him. We, I mean, in that moment, right? Like we are showing love by having a party. He wanted a pinata. He has present. His friends are there. And this is why I want more people to understand that you're not going to give your kid a needing disorder. If you put in healthy guardrails against a really crazy food supply, what happens is when kids don't feel like they belong because of their worth or because you don't do feelings in your home. And so they can't express those feelings, right? It's like, they need to feel like they can show up as they are with their struggles and all that stuff. And to me, that's where the disorder eating comes in is to, like, don't emphasize the looks. Emphasize what food can do for your health because that is true. And we are setting our kids up on a really big, you know, a really big mountain to climb if we don't get that early metabolic health, right? And that's just the biological reality. And look, I understand why people can't do that. There's food deserts. Food is expensive. There's a lot of social determinants to health and we need to work on those. But if we have the control, I think we have to look at that honestly, you know, of like, what kind of health are we setting our kids? And health, health not as defined as weight, but I'm talking about like real physical health, you know, if that makes sense. And health and weight can be connected, but they're not always. So that's a whole other conversation. Yeah, for sure. But I just, I'm glad you brought that up and that you're telling them, like, good for my body, bad for my body because they're learning to connect food as medicine instead of food as calories only. Right, right. And they know I'm a fitness person, right? I mean, I work out every day and I'm always talking about that stuff and just wanting to be healthy and mindful of my body and treat my body well. So that is kind of a normal narrative in my life at this stage anyway, but it is. It's so important, just like the feeling stuff. It's so important, you know, to really appreciate them and give them, you know, the positive affirmation when they're handling things well and the validation for whatever they're feeling. And I just had this conversation with one of my nephews the other day, he was just really struggling over the holiday weekend. He was overtired, he didn't nap, you know, so he was just, so he was just a savage. And (laughing) I'm a savage when I'm overtired and don't get me. Yes, 100% me too, me too. But he's like, he's so good at that really handling when he's angry most of the time. Like he can definitely lose his shit sometimes, but for the most part, he's really good at controlling that stuff and he went in and was laying on the bed and he's just like tossing and turning and he's kind of screaming to himself and he's just being mad, you know? And I went in and I laid down next to him and I was like, it's frustrating how buddy. He's like, yes, I want whatever he wanted, you know, and I go, yeah, I get that. And I was like, I just really appreciate that you're dealing with it and that you're talking about it and you're not taking it out on other people. I sort of think that's fantastic. You're doing really great work and I'm happy to lay here with you if you want anti-delay here with you. And he's like, I'm mad. And I was like, well, me too buddy. (laughing) But I want them to understand, right? That it's okay to feel all of those things and I also want them to understand that there is a way to deal with it, right? And in a positive and healthy way and there's a really unhealthy way to deal with it, which I try not to talk about 'cause I like to stay in the positives. (laughing) - Well, and that's what Dr. Deborah McNamara, I know I've mentioned her several times but her book, "Norris, Just So Good," but she's a developmental psychologist and she wrote this book, "Eat, Play, Grow." And it was funny, I was like, if we all were parented this way, we wouldn't have emotional eating but she talks about kids, like, you have to let them have their feelings but they also feel safe if there's a boundary. So if you give in to everything that they're, and I think about that with ourselves, right? Like if we're having a tantra, I can't do that. Oh my God, and then it's like, let yourself have the tantra but then unearth the need underneath that. It's not, you know, it's, if you're like at the end of the night, you're like, I deserve this cookie. It's been so hard today. It's like, okay, feel the like, I feel like I've sacrificed it, I'm not being rewarded for some reason. But what's the need? Is it really to reward yourself with food or is it that you need more fulfillment throughout your day and you're giving the job, food, the job of the only fun part of your day, right? So it's like, okay, so that's- Again, a lot of responsibility on food. Yes. It is. It's like food does not deserve the level of responsibility I put on it. Like I didn't ask for all this. Right. (laughs) Allie, I love this conversation. I could talk all day about this stuff. Tell everybody where they can find you. Yeah, so I do have my why am I eating this now group program. Again, we know the power of groups, those of you who are sober and also for my clients who have been in my group work. That's opening in September and people can find out about that at allyshopero.com/whyamighteatingthisnowlivegroup. And then allyshopero.com and then Angela was just on my podcast. So I have a podcast as well called Insatiable and it's really at the intersection of food, culture and psychology. So those are the best places. And that's a wrap. You know, I have to tell you, when I first had this conversation with Allie, I was right in the middle of understanding my own relationship with food. I've been working on food stuff for a very long time. I knew I had issues with sugar. I think I've always known that. You've heard me say before, like food and sugar were my first addictions long before I ever had a drink. But I knew I was putting way too much responsibility on food. To do jobs, it was never meant to do, right? But I didn't fully understand the belonging piece yet. I didn't get that. I was reaching for food in moments when I felt separate or isolated or feeling like I didn't fit in. Now, almost 20 years into recovery, I can tell you that understanding this connection between belonging and emotional eating has been just as transformative as understanding my alcoholism. Because once you see that invisible string Allie talks about, you can't unsee it and that awareness changes everything. So if you're struggling with food right now, please don't beat yourself up. You're not broken. You're not lacking willpower. You're human. And there's a reason you're turning to food. We just have to figure out what that reason is. And as always, you know, if you are done screwing around with all the behaviors and you're ready to really figure things out and change your life once and for all, book a call with me. I would love to talk to you. Addictionalimited.com/call and all my programs and options are available on that page. So you can see everything that's available to you in book a call so we can talk about what might be the next best step for you. Addictionalimited.com/call, of course, that's in the show notes. I love you guys. I hope you're having a fantastic day and I will see you next week. You've reached the end of another great episode of the Addiction Unlimited podcast, candid and honest conversation about addiction and recovery. Be sure to visit us at AddictionUnlimited.com to join the conversation and access show notes and links to everything we talked about. Love this episode. Please take 30 seconds to subscribe, rate, and review on iTunes to help us improve and give you the information you want. Thanks for listening. See you next week. next week.