Fredrik Tiberg, Camurus 🇸🇪 | Opioid Crisis, Long-Acting Injections | E51

What surprised me was not that many people knew it's a four-billion dollar company. I guess we have grown in the kind of shadow so things but now we are a profitable pharmaceutical company with strong pipelines so we have a unique position in that. The long acting, it's amazing that it works so well and that it changes some of the drugs which are basically generics and it can make such a difference. It's an opioid use disorder patient really doesn't want to be reminded of their disease so the fact that you kind of have monthly doses makes you feel more ordinary. How do you look at the Swedish butt-taking system in general? But I think the Nordics have had traditionally very strong healthcare industry and pharmaceutical industry for continuing to build on that. We have a new Tony episode. I'm your host Philip and on the flood by your show I'm interviewing the best Europeans in biotech to help you grow. Long acting drugs have changed certain diseases. One of the best biotech in the world in this space is cameras. It has two products on the market and is worth over four billion dollars. So I went to London and Sweden to talk to CEO Fredric Tiberg. I didn't know him personally, no cameras that well, but I've seen the company in the top ten most valuable biotechs on the flood by your map and this got me curious. We talked about how cameras is helping to solve the opioid crisis. We also talked about the next coming drugs including long acting GLP1 for obesity and why being a biotech CEO can be more exciting than being a professor in academia. So here's my conversation is Fredric and please hit the like for our button if you're enjoying it. Today's episode is sponsored by YSDS, your special delivery service. YSDS help farmer and biotech teams move sensitive time-categorical shipments worldwide with dedicated export available 24/7s and full shipment visibility. If you need reliability beyond standard logistics, YSDS is worth knowing. You can learn more by clicking on the link in the description below. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you Philip. It's nice to have you here. Cool. Your new office I heard you just moved in January? Yeah, it's really in place. A lot of things happening around here. We have a neutron facility and big X-ray synchrotron here. So it's for for a scientific field. It's a great place. Yeah, that's cool. So I want to start with cameras with that at large. Actually what surprised me when I prepared this episode was that not that many people knew you guys actually. And then I thought I'm, you know, it's a four billion dollar company top 10 biotech at this market cap in Europe. You know, okay, well, I mean, you have basically two products on the market, 293 employees with market cap four billion. So can you maybe just start a quick high level pitch for other people who don't know you? I guess we have grown in the kind of shadows of things. But I mean, we have been around for quite some time. I joined the company in 2003. At that stage, we were just a small development company. And then we have grown steadily, I think most the organically over the course of several years. And now we are a profitable pharmaceutical company with a strong pipeline. So we have a unique position in that sense. And perhaps we haven't made, you know, multiple races of capital and so forth. So in that way, perhaps we are not as visual as others. But I mean, you will help us. Hope so. And can you, can you cook you under like what was the major milestones made from the fund? I think you're a fund at 1990, what rights? Yeah, actually, we came from the 90s. And at that time, it was like more a service model company. So when I joined in 2002, actually just. As a born member. Yeah, no, I actually joined us ahead of R&D. And then six months later, became the CEO of the company. I mean, at that point, we decided to focus more on building the technology platforms and starting later on the first developments in terms of medical products. Yeah. I heard from Joseph Frederick when we prepared the call that basically when you came in, you almost not started for a blank page, but you started a lot of things to you. Yeah, we actually closed all ongoing projects because we realized that there was some kind of issues in terms of the IP and other things. So we basically had to restart to the business in some way. But in a positive way, you have to. In hindsight, as far as the weight. Yeah, correct. And what was the major milestone as a three to five milestones from 2022 until until today? I think the first milestone was developing the through crystal technology and seeing that it worked in both animals first, but then in patients. And that was a big break for us. Then, of course, you always expect things to go faster than they do in Pharma. This is so many hurdles you can enter. But then going forward, fast forwarding, we did actually an important transaction with Novartis on the, what is now the camp 2029 program and now actually in the production of product. So that was, but there was some arrangements in Novartis that changed things. Then we entered an agreement with Brave Man Pharmaceuticals on the opioid use disorder indication, which we had developed previously. It's something I feel very strongly for. I think it's a very under-treated group and a very exposed patient population. So going from there and then the IPO in 2015, which allowed us to start building up our commercial infrastructure. And then, of course, now our second approval. So it's been stepwise. And also we are now expanding from Australia and Europe now into the U.S. So that's a further important milestone for the company. That's impressive. I mean, there's not that many biotech, even in Europe, that make it through and commercial, not just one product, two product, I guess. And hopefully three and four of this. Actually, it's funny because I talked, you mentioned Novartis. I just recorded episode with someone from Novartis and actually mentioned you guys. And I think he was kind of in charge of the deal at Novartis. We actually had a very good relationship. I was a brilliant team work to work with, but there was some management changes and changes in priorities. Unfortunately, we got the rights back. So I think that's what happens in biotech often. I mean, you do different choices for different strategic reasons. So it was not for the product or the platform itself was more. No, yeah. No, I think we always had a very enthusiastic team on the other side, so to speak, but yeah. And that was on the, on with the Oxisa and Oclase. Which yeah, which we are now just launched in Germany, for instance. And we are now also resubmitting into the U.S. So we're expecting approval next summer. And we have multiple other indications to underdevelopment. Yeah. I think let's talk about later about how to overcome setbacks. I think that's usually not easy for biotech executives. Yeah. But we can talk about that a little bit later. On the products, maybe just just to get back to the platform. I find it's pretty, it's pretty amazing that it works so well. So well, and the fruit crystal platform. Could you just tell me basically why, like how it works and why it works so well? Yeah, and I mean, we had a background in the area of lipids. So a Misselle membrane lipids and other lipids. And I mean, when we, the outset was that we thought about the technology that could be easily administered deeper technology at that point. I mean, there was basically only polymer system available. And they are, you know, often require reconstitution and mixing and have some limitations due to the degradation resulting in acid formation and other things. So we developed a technology that we thought would kind of work from administration up to delivery. So we can. And with the lipid system, you can, you get very rapid encapsulation in a defined geometrical matrix. And you can control the nanostructure by controlling the compositions. So I think we had all the attributes. and most importantly of course you also need to have something that is biodegradable and doesn't result in you know any toxic substances and so forth and we're working with endogenous lipids basically but still with all the documentation that we had available we had to go through I mean from a regulatory standpoint it took us a long time just to have all the toxicology data for substances that should be very well known to them at least the regulators I guess when you do something you always have development barriers to and then basically you are it's a subcutanist you inject yeah most of all time I mean most of them because of our programs are subcut so subcutane is under the skin but it can also be we have done in remascular injections and so forth so it's not limited to subcue however subcue is the most convenient injection form yeah because basically you inject and then it makes kind of a lipid I aggregate and then it degrades over months and so you have the drug delivery or whatever time you want you can control the release basically up I guess to a month and then you have a steady release of drugs for months our sweet spot is we clear up to monthly and sometimes up to buy monthly or even okay one administration in best cases okay and so and so I mean one thing I also curious is that the I mean the long on the long acting it's amazing that it works so well and that it changes some of the drugs which are basically generics and makes them much more valuable for patients as well I don't think you find it that obvious from I did can make such a difference and deliver some of the value now you don't think so but I mean there are a number of components here I mean from from a from a convenience standpoint it is obvious that monthly injections are going to be more convenient than daily or three times daily or whatever but but there is also from an efficacy perspective that you have kind of continuous exposure at a certain level that is well defined and you avoid infomeranetics yeah you also avoid you know potential tolerability issues with spikes in concentrations and so forth and so those are important components but but for a another thing is that for for instance an opioid use disorder patient really doesn't want to be reminded of their disease so the fact that you kind of have monthly doses makes you feel more ordinary and you don't have to think every day on taking your medication so and I think that's this stigmatization which is involved in many times in in in medications shouldn't be others underestimated so there I myself joke is also yeah compliance is of course another very important aspect yeah okay yeah it's it's it's kind of also it's a bit different I mean a bit contradictory with the recent GLP1 development where they don't want sub-Q and they want to pill and I don't think that's kind of if you're looking at areas where you've had the pill for instance if you take oak truth hide you know we had first of all very short acting injectable them we had a long acting and then we got the twice daily pill which had a you know very difficult time getting any market shares and now is I think it never was launched in Europe now it's coming a daily pill potentially has a better faith but patients don't want to take usually not you know twice daily medication when you can get an injection every month so I I'm not sure I think for the GLP1 area I'm sure there will be patients who are who will prefer the daily pill but I'm sure there will be a big group of patients that will prefer weekly or monthly or whatever new modalities that come in the space I guess it's good if the patient has an option yeah I mean treat us into options or optionalities is very important you can individualize treatment to lifestyles and other matter and the sub-Q I guess it's the same as for diabetes patients as a pre-filled syringe and the patient can inject themselves you mean our sub-Q yeah you're sub-Q yeah we I mean that's the one of the good things with the flow of crystal system is because it's it's a pure solution before it's injected so it can be injected with relatively thin syringes and using state-of-the-art outer injector or PEM devices so we are essentially using the same devices as you see for for other commercial recently introduced commercial products yeah so maybe it's let's move to the to the to the first or to the first product I think I mean there's a booby-doll I think it's the world one name Rick Sadi in the US what's quite funny is I mean from from the research that the the drug itself was was found in the 60s in the UK discovered it's a very old molecular entity but a very interesting compound because it's a combination of an agonist and antagonist so so you have very positive effects on cravings and other things on the same time you avoid for instance respiratory depression which is one big issue with opioids where it can results in overdose and death so it's got a very good profile from a mode of action standpoint yeah and then the actual treatment that it's for risky opioid depending on patients to to get them out of of the craving yeah I mean it's not saying a maintenance treatment of opioid use disorder but the other point is that typically we see we also see that you know some patients when ready they are tapering out and going to total abstinence so it's it's it's a continuous treatment from from what to say the early Celtics state of dependence to to in some cases then patients becoming completely abstinent but but our part of the treatment is to the maintenance phase you can say we'll talk more about the opioid crisis as well yeah I read the podium farmer a book scratch shocked but we'll talk about this after the first on the because I mean on the say that it's doing like pretty well I think US Europe Australia but I think you have quite a lot of difference in market shares from what I read like how how come is like what's the like yeah I think that first of all I mean from the say we're I think we're you know we've had double digit growth now for since launch in 2019 here by year and fortunately I believe that will continue because there is a high medical need in terms of market penetration so the global says it's 180 million dollars 2024 yeah it's on there okay but looking at the market penetration I think once we have established once there is funding available for patients which is you know now in Europe the austerity is governmental austerity is it's a big issue but but in markets where we have good funding like the Nordics Australia you know we are we are market leaders in almost all segments okay so that's and we have in Finland I think we have more than 5,000 patients when we started treatment I believe that patient numbers available in patients was lower than 5,000 so we've actually captured also patients out of treatment Australia we have a something like 20,000 patients plus in treatment out of a total of 60,000 okay then there are markets that are more difficult to enter and that's often the big European markets where there is financial hurdles so patients have difficulty getting finance versus reimbursement and so forth but reimbursement is not always a problem it's sometimes it's just government funding to the treatment systems okay it doesn't like going to a clinic or something that yeah it has to be yeah the clinics the budget for clinics can be limited yeah in Germany we have a lot of resistance because doctors are reimbursed so they're paid basically on the number of visits you have and then that doesn't really favor a long-acting treatment but nevertheless I mean our data are very strong we we showed superiority and reduction of illicit opioid use we have shown a lot of quality of life advantages for patients with the bit also I believe slowly and steadily we will continue to penetrate also the larger you European markets. And then when you say, for example, in your leading markets, you are basically replacing the generic version, the pill version for the specially, mainly I would say. So, what we're seeing more and more is that there is a heritage of methanol treatment, methanol is, first of all, it's much more toxic and it's very sedating. And we're seeing in the younger people, new patients mainly go into long-acting buprenorphine. But there is still, I think, in Europe, there's a majority of patients on methanol. And we're trying to and working, you know, it's quite successfully to transfer more of the methanol patients over to buprenorphine, which is much less sedating and has several advantages also relating to the risk of overdose and respiratory depression. And then it occurs from the pricing difference, because, I mean, I guess the generic version must be quite cheap, the pill version must be quite cheap, methanol, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, in many, I don't know, what's the pricing? Your pricing basically, I mean, despite that, I mean, it can be up to a factor of 10, 10, okay, in price difference, but I mean, we can see, and we have done work in the UK, for instance, that every patient that is we put on Bivirol, there's a, you know, for every pound investor, there's a threefold gain in terms of healthcare, economical outcomes, and society, so you have to look at the totality of, okay. Yeah, which I guess is what the health authority wants. That's the most important. Yeah, the problem, but I can imagine you must have some resistance from health authority, you're saying? Of course, there is a generic, and then, I think every, every company independent of steel, we are, we're low, I mean, if you're looking at obesity, for instance, and looking at the healthcare costs of the obesity sector, you know, we are much, we are much under the radar in that sense. And you, we will talk about you, so you get the second approval in Europe, I think this year, and then you also have a pretty promising, you just talk about obesity in a phase, phase one, be used as a similarity, the majority, the one thing before, I'm curious on, on the, on the compounds you're using, because I mean, it makes sense to use a proven molecule, and basically improving everything you mentioned. And I'm curious also why, why would you not develop a drug with them all? Like, let's say, innovative molecule that is, like, for probably, I mean, that can only be done with your technology. Is it that? Yeah, we are. I mean, we're working quite broadly. We have several products with the APIs that have not, they are not currently approved. Those are often earlier in our pipeline for various different reasons. So I think we are not, we are, we are agnostic to that. I mean, the important thing is that any medical product should provide, you know, value to patients, and ultimately, and that's what drives our investments. But I guess until now, it was just faster from a clinical development, and, and market access to use existing APIs versus new ones. Yeah, I mean, in a way, you know, you know, we have the efficacy profile, you know, the tolerability and so forth. So, so the risk is, you know, much smaller, of course, for, for, for an API, which perhaps has been in the market for 20 years, like octetide, the, the safety profile and tolerability profile is fully established. And I guess you know, the face for data or the, yeah, everything, yeah. Okay. And one thing I'm also curious is a bit more general question as well is like, it's how much, let's say, people were looking at your investors were looking at you as a, the long acting versus the repurposing of drugs. Because that, when I saw you guys, that's kind of the first thing I thought, okay, it's kind of a repurposing, but it's delivery, but it's kind of repurposing of the drug. It's not, but just wondering, maybe thinking, are repurposing doesn't work that well in general. Investors don't want to finance it. Yeah, no, no, I mean, I think repurposing, yeah, I mean, in some way, it's the same thing. I mean, what, what we are doing is often you can say externally lifecycle managing products and we, we, we, we repurpose them in new indications. And for new applications, so I think it's, yeah, very similar in a way. I don't know if there's a fundamental difference there. Okay. But then did you get the, like, pushbacks on the repurposing, and I mean, there's quite a lot of setbacks on repurposing, especially in the biotic world. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we always get pushbacks. It's the, it's the name of the game. That's where we're living. I mean, it's, but, but, but, well, I mean, we are working in new indication if you call that repurposing questions, like for, for camp 2029, we're going into polycystic liver disease, whether it's currently no product available. But for Booby, that was, that's, like, not we're prominent. It's the same indication. Yeah. Essentially the same indication. There is some nuances. Okay. Yeah. As always in former. Yeah. Okay. And so let's talk about, so your second product, I don't know how you pronounce it exactly, oh, oxyazza, the, the commercial name of this. Um, I mean, must be, yeah, must be fully, feels fully good. I guess to get the approval this year. Yeah. FDA is not, is already planned. I think for June next year this year. Yeah. So, so for Oxyzza, which is a long acting out true tide, we got approval in Europe in the summer. And then we launched it and then UK. We launched it in Germany just in November, time frame. And so far, we've got very good feedback and, and quite, quite a positive initial uptake. It's a small, small rare disease indication. But it's exceeded our initial expectations. So, so we're looking forward to penetrating them, continuing to see the uptake during 2020. What were your expectations? I never go. We haven't announced anything, but we have a good uptake. Okay. But I thought there was, you know, competitively, a bit more competition on this indication and cut some drugs available. And also for a pricing point of view. Well, we are pricing, we have in place in Germany. So it's, I think we have a, a little bit more for a pricing competition, for like some competition cheaper, cheaper prices. Yeah. That's, I think what, what we are offering, it seems that it's appreciated and has a clear medical value for patients because this is the first product that can be, a long acting product that can be administered by patients themselves, conveniently with an auto-injector pen and on a monthly basis. And that has large value, plus we have shown, you know, convincing strong, long-term efficacy. So combined, there's a, and there's a high medical need in this population. So, yeah. And from a, I think I asked the cover from a peak sales or from a sales estimates, like what's the, what does it look like? This is a relatively small indication acromegally. I mean, looking at it globally, we are expecting maybe up to 100 up to 300 million. The US in terms of peak sales. But we are also pursuing the new random quantum or indication. That's our second indication, where we are expecting past three data somewhere where we have said late, mid to late, this year is closing the study, but then we'll see how, how long time it takes to get the data. That's the current estimates. But that market is maybe at least tenfold larger, so it's more like two billion. Okay. So that's a, you know, talk faster potential. And on, on the radar, what was the peak sales estimates? I'm like, in the US, the estimates are, our estimates are, you know, peak sales above one billion US. So it's based to go. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's large potential, but more importantly, I think, you know, we're seeing very positive effects of the treatment out in the treatment landscape. And I guess it's also depending on the opioid crisis. Unfortunately, the number of patient grew a lot, I don't know, probably in the last ten years. Yeah, that's what it's growing. Maybe, I mean, at least it's calming down. I hope, I think so. I think what you're seeing in the US is that actually overdose numbers are fine. is starting to decrease. So I mean it was speaking at just opioid overdosing was speaking at 80,000 per year or so and total overdose numbers. All drugs included was in up to 100,000 or so. It's coming down but I do believe a large portion of that reduction is that treatment, especially BIPNLF in treatment and has a positive impact on so I think it's it's not that people are stopping using drugs it's it's probably more and this is I should say maybe not fully elucidated at this point but more that because BIPNLF and I said Portugal antagonist it blocks it avoids then respiratory depression and protects patients from pure overdose death or incidences relating to the respiratory depression. I think I want to go deeper and to appear there. We just find a finish on cameras also like there. I want to talk about the the last I mean the I think in your pipe on the the semi-glittered program and finish on the on the finance. I think I think that has from what I understand quite a lot of potential as well and it's quite interesting from the investor from the investors point of view this program and obviously I mean this is a safe from the Jolvi and and Lily's product. Yeah I want to I mean I have a few things that that comes to mind because I'm using the Jolvi but then you have a deal with was there really yeah but you don't have a deal with no all this I don't think so. So how do you source it like why this like this deal was really how does it compete like no I mean we we announced a partnership with Lily this basically in June last year and I think it's very interesting because they obviously have a very strong position in in the encrypting space and and specifically for for treatment of obesity and other related disease and yeah also there a unique position in in their functionalities with semi-glue type we had the opportunity to source the API ourselves and we also wanted to keep an own development so we conducted the first initial phase 1b study in patients with overweight or obesity would be am I above 27 to 39.9 and that study was very positive in terms of the readouts rapid weight reduction and also very extensive in relationship with the label dosing that that is for the active comparator which was big over them so we think the data are so interesting that we want to continue into face-to-be study and I think that's and meanwhile of course our relationship with Lily continues to evolve we'll see how how it progresses okay but how can you source it independently if you don't have like even the procurement agreements I mean there are multiple suppliers of G&T material you should you wear that semi-glue type is is losing patent in certain countries like Canada and Brazil a little bit potentially so forth in China already in 26 but but but even so for clinical purposes there is typically a GMP material available for for development okay because I know I know more for the or the Immunicology Trials where I think all the drug that do combination with with KTUDA or with of the usually they still have some kind of a similar system much more difficult they are more difficult to to develop and scale and so forth they're not by a similar novel I mean when the combination trials okay with KTUDA usually they have a agreement with Merck somehow to get KTUDA yeah that that may be for different reasons okay okay okay and then on the on the on the finance I just to finish I think I mean what's probably amazing that you've been I think profitable for what is it for four years I think now and now you're like very profitable I think in 2020 2024 even 2025 what was it and your profit grew a lot and you're like basically more than 50 percent net profits well it's 24 yeah we've got our guidance for this year is a profit of 0.9 to 1.2 billion sec so that's and we have a profit margin of I think we are lost quarter about 43 percent it's amazing okay yeah it's good I mean I think the most important context there is not the profit margin it's the fact that we are actually financing a pipeline as well so so we're I think what's unique with us is that we do have a strong commercial side but also we have an interesting and an advancing pipeline so that's that's how I want to see the company and then I guess with these with this profit also I mean it was we cash we cash balance and gives you a lot of options I mean to cash you have and also your market your very high market cap I guess it gives you quite some options and I heard you were looking also on on the M and A side you're looking at so we're working I mean it's it's search and evaluation and ongoing processes in progress yeah in progress always GPM so if you're more than this year it was I mean it was very good I must say that it felt like there was a fewer people and ordinary and I thought it was a little bit more tame that it can be sometimes it's a complete circus but this year it was a little bit slower but I was still you know very productive and again but the hotel rooms are as expensive as ever so and the chairs in the lobbies and the chairs in the lobbies yeah okay and then so maybe to to continue on the so to back a bit more in the street topics on the opioid crisis and I read the book out I'll produce and I was like quite shocked I mean it's quite a crazy story and quite in terms of an ethically and and greed and whatever you want to call it yeah maybe I mean on the on the outlook how do you look at this aspect and obviously you're bringing a solution which is much much needed by patients how do you look at this crisis I mean the origin of the crisis obviously there's been I mean opioid use has been an issue in all of humanity it's not a new issue but I think the combination of the marketing efforts and so forth that was done and the messaging around the chronic pain and and so forth was very yeah I'm not I'm not the judge so I should just be but it wasn't appropriate I do think there was other companies that joined so I mean Purdue was certainly very obviously visible in this but there was a lot of other companies that that joined the success in the chronic pain space in the early 2000s and so forth so so they it was not alone but I mean for us I think the future is to have a good treatment for patients if they I mean this continues to be an issue beyond the oxycontin and so forth because you have found Daniel coming in in the U.S. and so forth so there are new new challenges and yeah fentanyl is also I mean it's a synthetic super potent opioid okay which also is very largely responsible for the increase in deaths that we saw in in the kind of late 2010s because of its high potency it is respiratory depression so I think we'll have to continue to fight these drugs coming in but also make sure that that patients who are impacted or treated and receive medical treatment because it's the most effective way of dealing with this topic for patients but I guess especially in the U.S. must be a challenge when they when they're already in the opioid dependence and maybe they don't have proper coverage or health care coverage then they don't even access treatment so I think you can say that in the U.S. there is a big problem I mean, also you have a big part of the comorbidity program, so you have a lot of patients that have psychiatric disorders and opioid use disorders, and they are often, you know, living on the street and not receiving treatment. I think this is, I mean, from a humanitarian standpoint, this is an important topic to address that also these patient categories should have access to treatment. And I think it would be, you know, from a society standpoint, it would be a very, very wise investment. And then, and then something like Medicare, I guess, helped. Yeah, Medicare has been, to some degree, protected from a lot of these issues and cuts that have been taking place. So for instance, the work requirements that were going to be introduced is not impacting substance use disorder. Yeah, that's a, and how, because I feel like in, in Europe as much, it's a, there are many Europeans. I mean, you can see, as we have been UK, we have had quite good, especially in Scotland and Wales, but there's still, you know, very limited funding, and there is a large portion of patients that don't have access to treatment, especially if don't have access to treatment with long acting, the plural of inferences. So I mean, there is huge potential for improvement and, and improved coverage of the broader patient population there. Yeah, I met more from a number of patients per capita, I feel like the, the severity of the opioid crisis was just much stronger in the US than in New York. I don't know if it's true actually, I feel like Scotland is actually the country with the highest rate of, of opioid use disorder per capita. So, so, so the US is not, you know, absolutely not isolated, but in terms of total population, of course, it's, there's, there is an estimated two million Americans in treatment right now, but they say that approximately six million are, or which say candidates for, for treatment, you know, so it's, it's a huge, you compare it to any other, you, it's somewhere around patients in treatment a little lower than 700,000. Okay. Okay, so that's the effect of four, five per capita, basically. Yeah. That's a huge difference. But a lot of countries, I mean, reporting is not always great, like I guess you five, well, you, if you take you five per capita, I guess that's, that's more, I mean, better reported. Yes. I mean, if you take you five, it's lower incidence and prevalence than the US for sure. Okay. And, and I'm curious on the opioid because I mean, at the end of the day, opioid also very, I mean, I'm very useful from a clinic in a hospital setting, and there's also a lot of, I mean, even fentanyl, and I just heard that it's used in hospital. Yeah. As a pain killer or something very effective pain killer, and, and I mean, used extensively in certain treatments, for instance, surgical interventions. But what's kind of the solution is, inventing new pain killers, do we place opioids for patients? There is a large effort to go for non opioid pain killers. But in many cases, so, so are a very good analgesic agents, all right. So, so, and the best, it's about finding the compromise and using different medical interventions where, where they should be used and perhaps not too broadly. Okay. So, I mean, that's the crazy thing with the crisis, all right. Set the site produce that in some, I think it required a lot of hospital sessions, settings or patients are just overusing opioids, and then that what led to the dependence and then some of the crisis for, for, for, for individuals, for patients. I think it's a combined issue, I mean, dependence is to one extent relating to, to over usage, but it's also relating to many other factors. And the, as I mentioned, I mean, life of, of people growing up and addiction is a problem if it's alcohol or, or opioids, it's a, it's a problem that we have had as a, as a species. For a long time, and sometimes it needs treatment, and sometimes it can be resolved. But by other means, and in touch. But what I had in the back of my mind was also when we think of opioid crisis, we think of fentanyl, we think, oh, it's like a drug addict, so recreational, and then when, when badly, but if it's from a, like hospital, like the origin is from a hospital, overuse, a bit like antibiotic, and overuse, and then it has very severe consequences, and that was surprised me a lot in the opioid crisis in the US, wasn't like the, what we're seeing now in Europe, which is also very concerning is that there was some super potent opus that came in in the 60s and 50s, actually. So Nitta Sins, for instance, which are now being seen in the different markets. So that's, you know, multiple times more potent than fentanyl, and that's also, again, a threat mainly because of the risk of overdose and mortality. Okay. Yeah, fentanyl, I looked at a few things at fentanyl on the hall. That's crazy, how the whole catels took it over and how it's manufactured, I think most of it is manufactured in China and comes through catels and exported and how it's so cheap to make and so potent that, like, it's insane. I mean, it's more quantities become cheap, you know, if the synthesis is not today. But also, how addictive it is at the end and how potent it is, so you know, yeah, smart and forgetting into political solution, that's a, that's a different topic. Fortunately, not my responsibility right now. But back to, back to, to biotech one thing, it's fairly crazy on the long acting category, I think, I mean, there's quite a lot of successful biotechs in this, the New York, obviously, they're not directly competitive, but it's a very specific, I think I said this is also quite interesting. I mean, they've been very, their first product was the growth hormone once weekly growth hormone. So a bit of, like, enough, is it long, long standing, you could take away, is it as long standing technique? So before the approved products I've seen is one daily or weekly, but I mean, obviously, I don't know their pipeline, but I guess. But then at least the one I, Medincell, the one I think of, yeah, Medincell has really a problem-based system, it's a French company, which passed a billion dollar mark, I think, and they have also mainly focused on, I would say, anti-psychotics, which is a category where this long-acting injectable concept has been used for a long time, but it's good to, yeah. And I think Adosia as well and I guess, I don't know, I mean, I also French company, you kind of seen it, but I haven't big insight into what they're doing. They're also in the Davies, OVGT, they're smaller than you guys, but still, I think, 200 plus million market cap dollars. Okay, and then maybe one on the Swedish part, I think, industry, because it's pretty cool. I mean, even on, I think, I looked up one of our product as a podcast, there's one as a map or database and I look, and there's basically three Swedish companies in the top ten most valuable companies in Europe, but it's the public he listed. You guys are number two. We can't so be as a biotic company, and it is. And then by Arctic, Gunera was actually on the show last year, I think there are 2.5 billion. How do you look at this Swedish biotic ecosystem in general? It goes in, I think, at one time, it was even more successful, I would say, in the middle of 2010s. We had a lot of really quite large IPOs coming in 2015. I think we were the first company in 10-year time frame that did not list it, but there was a number of companies that, in some, have been successful and being select wheels on therapeutics was sold to the U.S. and so it's been, I mean, there's movement going on, but I think the Nordics have had traditionally a very strong healthcare industry and pharmaceutical industry, and we're continuing to build on that, and I think the nice thing is that we do have a few, which is a recent, resized company, it's like bi Arctic cameras and a few to others. And that's very important to keep the kind of momentum in the space and the interest in the in the area of healthcare. Yeah, I guess it stimulates the whole ecosystem. Yeah, I think so. And Denmark has of course been successful with Asandis has been one so it's a strong development and the sea land, Gubra, which we actually have a collaboration with. So yeah, that is very Nordic. And the part of general. No, no, I mean it's a I'm really impressed by the of course we would see like to see that spread more across Europe. But at least it's not far across the bridge. No, no, it's I came actually from Copenhagen. I mean I landed then and I'm going after there. Actually, I'll talk to the CSO of Novo Nezes or industrial biotech or biosolutions. Also a really cool company. I mean, they're really strong in biosolutions in general, it's really impressive as well. Maybe to finish a bit more on some some more personal questions. One thing is more from a career, a career lessons. One thing that struck me was that you were first you were very like connected to London because you studied in London and then you're a professor in London. And what's pretty cool is also you transition from professor to to CEO, which is not completely uncommon. There's also not that common. I know that professor found companies with more like scientific founder or sit on the board. Like why how how was it transit why and how was it? I mean, I think basically I've always been entrepreneurial in mindset. And I really like the academic environment. However, you could see that it became increasingly in my view bureaucratic and resource strained. And so over time, I've always worked parallel with with the companies and my academic work. But unfortunately, I think it, you know, you have to search for grants and innovation was slow. So I thought it was for me it was great to go into this position and be able to work in a more effective and agile way. You would expect that would be the case in university, but but sometimes academic is a little bit on the backwater. So plus what is exciting to work in farmers? Of course, the closeness between research and patience. And what were you doing as a professor? What was I worked I mean, everything from condensed matter physics to physical chemistry I worked a lot with the nanostructures, material science and things like porous media through complex fluids. But not necessarily farmer then. I was also, you know, I had a pretty broad repertoire. You told me even that physics and inference for one year. And how was that to transition to motto farmer? No, I think, I mean, we are somewhere in, I think it was, I think this is a super interesting area to work in and because again, because of the closeness between patience and actual science and to make that leap was a great fortune for me. And I was always interested in biomolecular bioscience. So, so it was a very natural move. Okay. And I've seen also that you're, I mean, you said you worked in in France, you worked here, and I think you were a professor also in in Oxford. Yeah, I said joined visiting professors, I think it was so quite European as well, like, yeah, when Europe is great. I don't remember you. Yeah. Then we did more on that part on how, how, how important is it for you now that you worked in the different countries? I think it's always, I mean, in this space, we have a large group of people from Australia and out up to New Syria, the largest northern part of Norway. So, I mean, I think you have to have an international perspective and and being able to that's also part of the fun being and running a company like this is that you have so many great people with geographical distributions and different approaches. So, that's enriching, I think, all of the, all of our lives in the company. So, speaks. That's cool. Yeah. I will finish with a more quick fire. So, it's like like quick questions, quick answer, just after that. I'm curious, even more personal, but what do you do outside of work? Oh, I'm a good gardener. That's where you're so nice, Ben. So, in the office, in the world, the world of friends, the world of the world, you know, I mean, you're the one climbing and changing the plants. Yeah, exactly. I'll do that. I mean, I like being out nature. I have a little bit of a esoteric interest. I'm a little bit of my interest in skateboarding is a little bit of, oh, so I do do some of that. I'm a little bit too old for it, but I try to just try. That's cool, that's cool. Okay, finish on a quick fire. So, like, quick questions, quick answer. And the first one is cameras going to be a ten billion dollar company? I mean, I think that would be not what I can see here. And obviously, we are striving to be that and more, but I'm not going to say anything more than that, but certainly our ambition. Is Lund a great place to build a biotech? I think, from most aspects, it's really good. It's in a nicely-located geographic, we have closeness to the airport, very good, educated people, and also Copenhagen, the next door. So, I think it's a good place. Yeah. What's the most common misconception that people have about Kummer's? Oh, I don't know. If we are there any Miskossort pieces? I cannot swear on that, but I guess, I think the most common is that people say Camaros. It's a big one. One mistake you made in the past 12 months. One mistake, I mean, I can't count the mistakes I make, but yeah, I've made a few. I can't really dig one up right now, but I'm certain that I've done some. Part of working is that you make successes, but you also make mistakes. How much is AI changing Camaros? I think we are not on the front line of AI, but we are implementing more and more, and of course, we are implementing into our business processes, our intelligence, and so forth. So, it's going to have a big impact on the company and in the future, but I wouldn't say that we are in the front of these developments, but we do have an active strategy. It's more the foundation and the core business of the core, the drug development, it's more like the. Yeah, I would say so. Who is one of your biotech heroes or mentors? I think when it comes to heroes, he's no longer around, but I mean, I told you I was working in France with Dugin, Pierre-Jel. He was a physicist, but he was a fantastic mentor and quality person. So, a little bit of the Mick Jagger of physics, breaking a lot of boundaries and also bridging theory and experiment, which I think is something of great importance, and being able to explain it as well. He deserves his noble question. He deserves his noble pride, for sure, yeah. Last question, one advice to 40 years old Frederick. Oh, yeah, work harder. No, I mean, yeah, I think obviously if I knew the tracks and I would maybe do a few things differently, but I think this is a great sector to work in. It's full-failing and yeah, I think I would just do what you do. Do we know? Yeah, cool. Thanks, Frederick, great conversation. Thank you. Thank you. Enjoy it. I'm impressed by what Frederick has built in over 20 years. I'm also impressed by the depth of experience and his calmness. If you enjoyed this episode, please hit the like, review or follow button. Any of the actions will help many people discover the podcast. We also have plenty of similar videos on our channel, so please free to check them out. I would also love to hear what you think, so if you could leave a comment wherever you are, or shoot me an email at [email protected], that's [email protected]. Thanks a lot for watching till the end, and see you in the next episode.