Frankie

Thank you. And welcome to grieving overdose death. My name is Susan Claire and I created this podcast to give a voice to those who have lost someone close to them from an overdose. I am one of those people. This podcast is dedicated to my daughter Sharon. Today, I am interviewing Ellen about her son Frankie who passed away in October of 2022 from an accidental overdose when he was 26. Thank you for joining me, Ellen. Thank you for having me. I'd like to start the interview with learning about Frankie and if you'd like to share any events in his life, his home life, any hobbies he had, any friendships, what made him happy and your relationship with him. Okay, great. Thank you. So Frankie is a triplet. My last maiden name is Trata. So they had the great famous Trata triplets in town, two girls and a boy and they really, really had a charmed life growing up in a beautiful neighborhood in northern New Jersey. My kids were typical Bergen County kids involved in lots of activities. Lots of friends went on nice vacations and the like. When my children were six years old, their dad and I divorced. It was a pretty amicable divorce, but their dad moved about an hour and 15 minutes away. So for Frankie in particular, it was hard to lose a male presence in the house, you know, when he was stuck in the house with three girls. His grandparents lived about 20 minutes away and I'm eternally grateful to them and his grandpa because his grandpa was the, you know, a male presence in his life. And so they had this great childhood and Frankie was always the funniest kid. Every time we would go away or anywhere in public, he was always the first one that would make friends because he was such a funny kid. And at family holidays, he'd be the one that would come and invent all these cute magic tricks and make it look like he's levitating up in the air and, you know, just love to be the funniest kid in the room. When the kids got into about middle school, that was the beginning of what I think Frank Troubles began. And the reason that it started at that age is when he was the smallest kid in the class and chronically small, you know, he was a premature triplet, baby C. And we took him to a doctor and he was diagnosed with needing growth hormone shots. So he's the smallest kid in the class taking growth hormone shots and he also started to lag behind academically. So Frankie was in a resource from most of his school years. So as a triplet with these two triplet sisters who virtually are sailing through life, they were pretty and popular and athletic and smart. That's when he's in securities really started to become evident, you know, and he suffered from a lot of depression and anxiety and then he coupled with ADHD, which many children who are, you know, suffer from substance use disorder have. I'm learning. So I did and my family did and my friends did everything that we could to help him. I mean, I could say I was one fierce mama bear and I know when I look in the mirror, I could say I did everything I could to help my son as did my family and friends. Whether it would be try to get him into a karate class or get him into some musical instrument he liked or I talked the travel soccer coach into putting on the travel soccer team even though he sat on the bench, but I thought it would be good, you know, for his self-esteem. Every kind of psychologist psychiatrist, he took him for genetic testing to see what having depressed it would work the best for him on and on and on. Just trying to help my kid as did my family and friends. And when he became a young teen, he turned to self-medication as opposed to the traditional methods of getting better, which would have been therapy and prescription medication and getting involved in healthy ways to help himself. And so the kid never really liked to drink. He didn't drink alcohol, but he liked to smoke a lot of pot. And he smoked pot and when his grandpa ended up dying of heart disease, that pitched him into the next level. And that turned into doing a lot of Xanax and getting underage as, you know, being under the influence of drugs, which we expunished as a minor. But it did progress into some other things on his record that we couldn't expunge as he got older. And one day when he was at school, I did what every mother does who was worried about their kid and I snooped through his drawers. And I found there were needles in the drawers that weren't his growth hormone shot needles. So when he came home from school, I asked him what those were and he admitted to buying fake or illegal steroids and testosterone from some guy at the gym. You know, and though when I speak about his life, I say, "Why would the smallest kid in the class take steroids and testosterone?" You know, like, let's make myself look bigger in whatever method I need to. And this is an illegal method, but I will get muscles and I, you know. So he turned to that, which was another troubling sign. I just remember as a young teen, it being so sad to me that his sisters would be out at every party and he would be home alone playing Xbox Live. And as a mother, you can't make your kid get friends that last because he just had a trouble. You know, I used to say, "No one can make friends faster than you. You just need to learn how to keep them." And that was the trouble that he had. And so Frank really, really suffered with his anxiety and depression because of that. And he used to say, "Mom, I have 2400 Facebook friends. Why don't I have real friends?" So we could go on a whole different topic about how damaging social media is to teenagers. But that did play a part. So anyway, as he progressed through his teens, he turned to different types of medications and he had a girlfriend at the time who broke up with him. He thought he was going to marry her. And instead of coming to us and saying, "I'm so depressed you have to help me," he chose to snort nine bags of heroin on a Friday morning. And when he woke up, he thought it was Friday afternoon and it was Sunday. At the time, he was living down with his dad in Central Jersey. So he did come home to my new husband and me and say, "I need help." And we were waiting. You know, because you can't make a kid go into rehab until, especially when they're over 18, until they're willing to get the help they need. So we thought, "Well, here's our shot. We're going to send him to what we believed as the best rehab also in Connecticut." Started out as little as six months, but probably 18 months, which we were willing to do because as a parent, you do anything to help your kid. And he ended up getting kicked out of that rehab in six months. So he couldn't attend to his sobriety. And from me being in parent support groups, I knew that he had to, you know, when he come out of rehab, it's no pot. He's no beer. It's nothing. You have to be totally sober. And he just didn't want to do that. So I couldn't have him live in my house. So he moved back down to his dad's and he went back and forth with his sponsor going to meetings and then slipping and, you know, on and off and sobriety is so awkward. You know, these kids, they suffer so much. And I've learned that it's not them chasing the high. It's that they want to take drugs so they don't feel dovesick. That's really why they do it. They don't want to feel sick. He was out with his very best friend and they were, it's a crazy long story. Anyway, they ended up finding my ex-husband's car that was stolen. They ended up finding it. Long story. But I guess they chose to celebrate that night. And Frankie's best friend died in his arms from what we now know is probably a fentanyl overdose. And he stuck his hand down. Just he's throat to try to get him to vomit up the drugs and didn't help. And, you know, that really just did him. He was so devastated after that. And I thought, well, he's actually seen his best friend die. You know, this is going to be enough to make him get sober. But unfortunately, it wasn't. And I tried so hard and, you know, throughout his whole life. But at that point, I felt like I had to detach with love in order to save my own sanity, you know, and put in proper boundaries. Like, I miss you. I want you to come to my house, but you have to be sober. Or, you know, we just really did have a pretty acrimonious relationship toward the end. So the last time that I saw him was at his triplet sisters engagement party at my home. And I hadn't seen him probably for a few months. And we had a black and white engagement party. And in true form, Frankie chose up in a red t-shirt, you know, like whatever. And I was so happy to see him. And it was such a joyous happy night. And I am forever grateful that the last conversation I had with him, I said, you know, Frank, why don't you stay overnight? And he said, oh, I have to return my friend's car. And I said, well, sure, it was really great seeing you. And I love you so much, Frank. And he said, I love you too, Mom. And that was the last words we had. So I'm really, really grateful for him. that that was a gift to me. You remind me of a lot of things that also similarly happened with my daughter while you're telling your stories. Yeah. So it sounds like we have a history with your son of getting involved with drugs and all the help that you were able to give to him and the rehab and so forth. But as a parent you can just do so much as you said. So can you if it's not too painful can you talk about the last day of his life and what had happened? Well I told you what a funny kid he was and the kid was the most dynamic he could he that's why he could manipulate me into doing anything. He was a master salesperson really he was really good. He did a number of different software sales jobs but he also had this side hustle that he called baton Frankie and he would get I don't know X amount of dollars from kids and say I will place your baseball bets for the season and the kid made a ton of money doing this you know up and down like everybody who handles betting but that was his his side hustle and his last night he had he must have had a bet going in Atlantic City on some fight. So he went down to Atlantic City and they must have won a lot of money. So he ended up getting a hotel room at Harris Casino and I guess getting drugs that night and what we do know is he bought drugs from two individuals and he thought that he was snorring cocaine that was his drug of choice and it turned out that it was laced with fentanyl to the point that looking at toxicology reports was mostly fentanyl because two milligrams will kill you and he had 32 milligrams in his toxicology report. So I am comforted by the fact that I know that my child just went to sleep because that amount of fentanyl he just passed away. However what I speak about when I speak in schools and communities is two things. If these two individuals saw a boy passed out all they had to do they were in a hotel room was called security or 911 and they would have brought up Narcan or Naloxo and saved my child's life but instead they removed his clothes. They threw him in the shower thinking that that would sober him up. It didn't so they took his clothes and posted wearing them on Instagram and then they stole his automobile. So that is the picture that I have in my life of the two individuals that were with my child on his last night on earth. It's just horrible. We didn't know where he was. He was really he had taken his location finder off. His sisters got a call from another mother who must have known what happened but didn't want to admit it and said you know we can't find Frank. So one of his triplet sisters was brave enough to make some calls down in Atlantic City and she was the one who got the news from heroin security that Frank had passed away. So that poor child is stuck with that kind of PTSD and she had to tell all of us and so very very traumatic. The two boys we will never get them on a drug related death case just because it's too complicated and Atlantic City is inundated with these cases but we could get him for car theft because it was on camera on the Harris-Cassina cameras. So there were warrants for these two boys arrests and a few months later one of the boys took his own life. I have no idea if it was because of that or he was involved in something else but the one boy was left and he would they would find him they would have a court date he would not show up then they would have another warrant he wouldn't show up and I finally wrote the judge and sent pictures of my beautiful family and said I just need you to see the face behind this case number and I take pity on this family you know this beautiful family that has been affected by this epidemic and I'm begging you to hold this boy until his court case and he did agree to do that so the boy came into court and I'm on the right side I didn't know that the people on the good side sit on the right side of the court and the bad people sit on the left but I looked to my left and that boy's mom and grandma were there and you know I looked at them and I said they're in the same horrible mess that I am those mom and grandma are here on behalf of their screwed up kid who sold my kid the drugs and I have just as much compassion for them because this is what drugs does it destroys families on all sides of the spectrum he did admit to his guilt and three months later he had his sentencing so I wrote the judge again because as a mother that didn't own the car I couldn't do a victim impact statement because it was just car theft right this case his dad owned the car and his dad couldn't go to court it was too too traumatic for him to go so I wrote the judge again and said I'm begging you to let me have an opportunity to speak and just give me that just give me that my husband and my daughter and her fiance and I walked into the courtroom we sat in the front row we had four inch diameter buttons me and Frankie my new husband and Frankie his sister and Frankie the fiance and Frankie sitting in the front row and you know the judge did the right thing and he said I'm really not supposed to allow the mom to speak but I'm gonna give you the chance so I got to look at the back of that boy's head and say all you had to do was call 911 and because you didn't my child is dead and that is the only satisfaction that I will ever get but I'm grateful for that judge who my did write a thank you note to that evening for showing me mercy so that's that's the sad ending of my child's life this boy that you were this a man that you were that was involved with your son's death does he have a history of drug abuse did you know of or was he just a cell would sell the drugs I didn't know the boy all that I found out from the bailiff who walked me in my car because you know when the first time I went there I was alone for you know when he just pled guilty I was alone so if somebody walked me to the car and the guy I said I know this you think this is just a car theft but this kid sold my kid drugs and ended his life and he said oh that kid is so messed up he's gets a fronikeys he's this and that he's there's been so many warrants for his arrest the only justice that I will get is what the prosecutor said if they do if he does end up going to jail he said I'm sure the kid will at some time if he decides to talk to his roommate about what happened to Frank's that Frank's last night and the roommate wants to get a lesser sentence and goes and tattles on him maybe he'll get some justice then but that's so when your daughter was a life did you even know to say be careful there's fentanyl and drugs I didn't know what fentanyl was didn't have a clue well well now we do it seems like there's just so because of all the deaths everything that's going on it's it's so much more prevalent and the fact that they didn't even think to use narcan like people carry around I have narcan in my home like it's just something that you have now that you're aware of this yes and the fact that these two men that were with your son had no idea that putting him in a shower was going you know I'm not going to help them it's not like he was drunk on alcohol right exactly but can you tell me more you said you speak to schools can you talk a little about that do you go to schools like high schools that kind of thing and talk to them I do so at Frank's memorial my friend came and she works for the Bergen County Prosecutor's office and she told me about an organization called the black poster project which started about eight years ago by a woman who lost her child and she wanted a visual representation of her child so she made a poster with his face on it on a black poster and she enlisted other parents whom she knew about who had lost their children to addiction and poisoning and so forth and it started off with about 40 posters and now the black poster project is over 900 posters and they're set up in schools and community events we were in say Patrick's Cathedral covering every single pew and it's a silent memorial so that when people come through and look at it they go wow this could be my kid this could be my sister this could be my brother and it's we have a friends and family section you know one woman lost five of her children to addiction brothers brothers and sisters because I know cousins the whole thing so I learned about black poster project I put frank into black poster project I know we're not this is his poster a mini poster of my beautiful son and his triple sister then I was introduced to alumni and recovery through that an alumni and recovery as who I speak with also another nonprofit that celebrated its 10th year and when we speak in schools and community events we usually speak with a young adult in extended recovery and then alongside a parent who was lost a child and of all of the things I have done and I it would take hours to quantify what I've done to help myself feel speaking in schools is the most effective thing because there's always one kid. I love it when there's more and the eighth graders are like my sweet spot. They'll always be like a pack of eighth grade girls that'll come up in tears and I just say to them, "I'm sorry you're crying but I'm really happy you're crying" because something has resonated with what I've said or it'll be the awkward kid who'll come up at the end and say, "I really gosh, my life is so much like your Frankie's and I'm just not going to turn to self-medication." So for me to take my child's life and honor it in a way that I know lives are being saved or education is being imparted that they share with others so that lives are saved or people go out and buy North-Narkam for their homes and their cars or send their kids to college with it or they are understanding about the Good Samaritan law. Don't run call 911. You're an underage, you're at a party, someone's drunk too much alcohol, they're passed out, you don't have to worry, you'll be prosecuted. You're saving a life and so those are the kinds of things that I speak to speak about which is incredibly healing for me. You mentioned that this was one way that I always ask parents people have lost somebody like the ways that they are coping and helping themselves through the grief. Was there other things that you wanted to talk about that you've done or was it mainly the way that you've done that? I mean it's like every day I wake up and go, "What am I going to do today?" You know? I'm part of my town alliance. I get a stipend as the addiction and recovery advisor, silly title, whatever. When families are in crisis, they call me and mostly it's like mom sort of worried about their kids and I'm kind of a sounding board but if they need additional help I connect them to a Bergen County service that depending on their insurance or if they want inpatient or outpatient this center for alcohol and drug resources will help them. So that's one thing. I also work on the alliance and we do things like use opioids settlement funds. I don't know if you're familiar with that. I could tell you what that is. Use money. We have Narcan boxes throughout town where every defibrillator box is. We have a Narcan box and that's for emergencies. We just implemented, there was a boy in Bergen County who died. His family has a concert that they throw every year proceeds of those concerts through the Center for Alcohol and Drug Resources went to, started with 10 towns in Bergen County where we have boxes, buster boxes named after Buster Mari and the Buster Box holds 50 boxes of Narcan and my town has it in the library because what we do know about Narcan is people, even those who are children or parents of somebody with a substance use disorder, they're embarrassed to go to the store and buy it. They just don't want to say can I have Narcan and they're embarrassed for whatever reason. So we put the Buster Box in a private place so people can just open it up like they open up when you go down the shore and you open up to pick out real estate magazines, blocks like that and get a private their own supply of Narcan. So we do things like that just back to opioids settlement funds. So because of Purdue pharmaceutical causing this whole opioid disaster that we're part of and other companies like CVS Walgreens, anybody involved in this epidemic, they have our health responsible. So for the next 18 years, states, towns, municipalities are receiving money as to pay for it. So if your town gets opioid settlement funds, you have to use it in the way you're supposed to and one of those many ways is with education and prevention. So that's the stuff that I love to work on to just help people. You sound like you have a really good handle on all that information. It's great. It's like the past that on to other people. Oh please. Yeah. Yeah. It's wonderful. The most healing and it happened seven weeks after Frankie passed away. My husband took me away to Arruba because I was having a breakdown and the last night at while we were there, we were making small talk with another couple at a bar and within two minutes she said, I'm a medium and I connect grieving parents to their children. So you can imagine how shocked we were. Long story short, she came over, introduced herself and said, your son has come through if you'd like to speak with him. And she gave me the most beautiful reading like by candlelight with the waves lapping up on the sand and knew everything about his passing that he was a triplet how he passed away that we cremated his body that we separated his ashes that his earns had hearts on them who would know that he came to us the night before and played acoustic music and we were thinking like, what could that be? And then we remembered we were eating dinner and there was a guy walking around serenading the tables playing the bossan over and whatever he comes to our table and plays stairway to heaven. So talk about being flipped out. So she saved my life. She really did. She's a famous medium named Farah Gibson. Look her up. A-R-A Gibson and she does Zoom calls and in person calls and highly, highly recommend her because you got to have you have to find a good one because there's lots of charlatans out there. Anybody who meets with her will walk away from the meeting knowing that their child is right there which I know and I get science from Frank all the time all the time. You know, talk about that. Like what kind of signs you get and you know I think the more in tune with them the more often they come but my kid I used to tell he's the most tenacious human being and I used to say to him you need to get a job with the CIA. You would break spies like they'll come running out of the exam room going I'll tell you where the bomb is just you know he was so tenacious. So when he passed away it was like every life in the house was popping off and on. You know all of us we were in bed. I have a motion detector light in my closet that I wasn't near. I was in bed and it just decided to pop on and stay on for ten minutes. I had pictures in the front entryway that just fell down on their own and no one was there. My most favorite, most favorite sign which you won't even believe when you hear it. I told you about having to drive to Atlantic City to appear in court and I was by myself when that boy was sentenced. So you can imagine the anxiety you know driving to in a half hours alone. Nobody could go with me long story short whatever. So I have my phone connected to the car for ways to get me there GPS and then I unplug it and I put it in my pocketbook and I go into the cart court room through the you know motion detectors or whatever they are gun detector and I go up to the ladies room and I pull my phone out and my phone was open to a group text between me and my girlfriends where I was saying I bought this dress you like it. Oh yeah you look hot you know like girlfriend stuff. The last text message on that group text was high mom and it looked like I wrote it because it was my blue bubble and it was capital H. I space M. O. M. So even if we're rattling around in my purse and it and it somehow got to my text messages it would be ampersand question mark a F Frank texted me high mom because he knew I was anxious about walking into that court room and he wanted me to know I was that he was with me and isn't that unbelievable. That's a really amazing one. Yeah. That's what I've heard. Of course. Hopefully you say that. Of course I did. Yeah good one. Another question I'd like to ask is if there's been any change in your beliefs like in God or the afterlife the way you look at the world. Is there anything that has kind of changed or some people just said no like I kind of have thought the same way. I definitely think and I did get this from a grief share class which is just for anybody who's lost anyone. I didn't get a tremendous amount out of that. I preferred my grief groups with the moms or dads that are in our terrible club right people who have lost someone to addiction but anyway grief share and it's like a Christian based program and they talked about the quote in the Bible called your days are numbered and I didn't even know that was a biblical verse. I thought that was like some mafia guy in a movie going your days and numbers you know like I didn't know and but we did have a discussion during that particular class about how God has your time on earth from the time you're born and I do believe that that's the case and also by working with these mediums that I do trust that your souls around the earth for the amount of time they're meant to be on earth and they do the work that they're supposed to do and then they go home where we will all be in home and as a mother of a child who is in his home my job I firmly believe this is to honor him by telling his story because I will never let Frank Trott his name not be said. I will say Frank Trott his name for the rest of my life and my job is to elevate my soul so that when I go home I'm living on the penthouse floor. That's what I always do. say because we're here on earth to do the good work and good work is what we're supposed to do and we are supposed to love one another and in this horrible the icky part of American history that we're in with everybody hating each other I need a spread love that's what my job is to do so that's what I do believe. Thank you for that. Yeah. You're inspiring. I can tell you. Thank you. I think that the parents and I have to include myself in this who have lost somebody to this disease. You just got well first of all you go through a period of I mean there's some shame involved with this you seem to be very open and also there's a depression and I think that we isolate ourselves in a way and we don't take that extra step out there it's a lot to come out of this kind of bubble that we're in because we have to feel safe and it's hard to step out of that but you've kind of made that transition not to say that you equally don't feel as have grief and sadness but you've kind of made it work for you. We take turn pain into purpose and I did read something if you interviewed a thousand moms who lost their child to addiction a thousand of them. I'm certain would say I suffered and still suffer from PTSD but there is also a group of those moms that also have PTG which is post traumatic growth and that's what I am subscribing to. I am going to grow through this horrible experience that no parent should ever have to live through and turn this into doing good and whether it be putting yourself out there in an uncomfortable way or spreading information that you hope will save somebody's life or you know what just being kind of people because kindness is free. When I speak to kids I have a picture of Robin Williams talking about you know people don't fake depression they fake being normal that's what they do they Frankie too he suffered from the sad clown paradox is what I say funniest kids in the room are often really troubled and sad and so I say to kids you know when you're when you're in the cafeteria today and you see the kid it's always sitting by himself or herself being a good egg and just invite that kid to sit with you because it doesn't cost you anything and kindness is free so we all need to do more of that. You can have adults absolutely. Well as well but it is hard when you are still grieving a lot of people I speak to like I've lost somebody recently you're you it's just kind of like you're in your own world and it's it's kind of hard to get out of that and it takes time but yeah and you know what they'll come out of it when they're meant to come out of it and we know that because we are grieving that you will always grieve for the rest of your life it's a pain that will never be taken away but we David Kessler from grief.com always says the United States is a grief illiterate society we're never schooled in grief we're never schooled on what you say or don't say you know like wow you're still going through this you're still sad over your kid well yeah because you know what he's still dead people say stupid things but people aren't trained and I'm sure you probably think of maybe dumb things you said to people before your daughter passed away we don't know you know and I always say I went to a memorial mass for those lost to addiction about a month after Frankie passed away and I had his picture and the thing I learned from the priest that night he said wow you have such a beautiful son what's your son's name and I said my son's name is Frankie and he said tell me about him and that is a lesson that was the greatest lesson I learned about grief because anybody whether they've lost a child or a dog a cat somebody to griefing their mother what was your what was your mom's name tell me powder we just want to talk about our loved ones because we don't want them to be forgotten right but you know my issue with meeting new people is that I don't want it to be about my grief I don't want to bring up the subject because it kind of it's like a downer yeah like oh oh what how many children do you have yeah well you know how do you correctly answer that question and then if you say well I have you know one daughter and one daughters in heaven oh it's for people like you said that don't know how to react to that because we haven't been properly given information on how to handle grief or other people's grief it's difficult so I often you know don't break up the subject or whatever because I don't want that to be the basis of my relationship with somebody because I think they feel put off by it but also at the same time it hinders me from speaking about my daughter and like she's always on my mind often on all day long so it would be something that I would want to share with somebody but I don't want them to feel bad for me at the same time or to pity me or whatever I it's just for me to be able to share stuff about her because she's on my mind and I love her so much so that I want to be able to talk about her that's all that's all like what you're saying yeah you sort of have given a lot of advice already but is there any other advice or people that are beginning this journey like how do they get through this and if maybe we can kind of list a few things like you've mentioned to help them kind of put together how they can approach their grief I mean everybody does it differently you know I'm always frustrated if I hear about a mom who lost her child and I reach out and say here's this four page you know grief resources guide I put together you know it come to this meeting and and I have to remember that a lot of people aren't ready to do that right away I couldn't do it fast enough I didn't need it to get myself out of this horrible so just find what works for you and God willing you have a tribe of people who love you and will just sit with you and you know I mean if you just do whatever you need to do if you need to lay in bed and watch the birds out the window all day that's what you do and nobody can tell you how to grieve you're you'll grieve in the way that you're meant to grieve and when you're ready to enter society again you'll be ready but nobody can push you that way you know like I remember the first time I went out to dinner it was months you know like in in my community and I felt like I was like staring down at my body it was such a surreal experience to be in this busy rest I said you're ready when you're ready and do a lot of reading and and find your tribe find other find other parents who are like you who have lost a child because nobody truly gets it unless they've lost to a child to this horrible epidemic I mean really I I know friends I have friends who have lost a child to other sources and as much as I love them and we can relate on many many ways as far as grief it's different than to an overdose because of a stigma on everything you know so I would just it's hard for me to give advice but to just do what feels right for you and there are resources available if you look for them you can reach out to me like put some information about that yeah serve come to the end of the interview but is there anything else that we haven't covered that you wanted to make sure people knew about I mean just warn the youth about one pill can kill they shouldn't take a pill that they're not prescribed by a doctor and they didn't pick up from a pharmacy because that is a big problem in our country right now you know pills that look like legitimate adorol or Xanax that kids buy off of Snapchat 50% of those pills have a potentially lethal dose of fentanyl and kids experiment we know that we have kids who did and they have to stay away from the fake pills that's one thing I didn't mention and get an archamp thank you very much I really appreciate you to do to the podcast and I would like to tell anyone out here who's listening to this podcast who has who are in a similar situation as Ellen and I if you would like to tell your story about the life of your loved one who died from an accidental overdose that struggles that you both faced and how you're coping to please email me at grieving overdose death at gmail.com and I've also played this place this address in the show notes thank you again Ellen thank you so much