Frankenstein: Horror, Humanity, and Hubris

This episode is brought to you by the Folio Society. The Folio Society is a small independent publisher based in South London, owned by its employees. They revisit our favourite stories and ask how they ought to feel through design, illustration and materials. Frankenstein, the subject of this episode, is one of their carefully reimagined titles. Frankenstein lives between fire and ice. It's about what happens when ambition outruns restraint, when brilliance untethers itself from responsibility. And two centuries on, it still has that unsettling power. From the cover to the introduction, the story is woven into every detail, deliberate, restrained, but quietly unsettling. It's Frankenstein shaped with intention, holding its chill to the very last page and never quite thawing. You can order Frankenstein and explore the other books we keep coming back to at foliosociety.com/thebookclub. That's foliosociety.com/thebookclub. I suddenly beheld the figure of a man at some distance, advancing towards me with superhuman speed. I believed as the shape came nearer, sight tremendous and appalled, that it was the wretch whom I had created, his countenance bespoke bitter anguish, combined with disdain and malignity, while its unearthly ugliness rendered it almost too horrible for human eyes. But I scarcely observed this, rage and hatred had first deprived me of utterance, and I recovered only to overwhelm him with words expressive of furious detestation and contempt. Devil, I exclaimed, "Do you dare approach me and do not you fear the fierce vengeance of my arm, wreaked on your miserable head?" "Begon, vile insect, or rather, stay that I may trample you to dust, and oh, that I could with extinction of your miserable existence, restore those victims who you have so diabolically murdered." "I expected this reception," said the demon, "all men hate the wretched. How then must I be hated, who am miserable beyond all living things? Yet you, my creator, detest and spurn me thy creature, to whom thou art bound by ties only disoniable by the annihilation of one of us, you purpose to kill me. How dare you sport thus with life, to your duty towards me, and I will do mine towards you and the rest of mankind. If you will comply with my conditions, I will leave them and you at peace, but if you refuse, I will glut the moor of death until it be satiated with the blood of your remaining friends." "So, everybody, that is a glimpse behind the curtain of the book club because that is how tabby and I usually speak to each other." "It's uncanny." "I will glut the moor of death." "And also, the number of times tabby has said to me, 'begone vile insects.'" "We will comply with my conditions." "Exactly." "So, this is a tremendous scene from Mary Shelley's chilling novel Frankenstein, which was published anonymously in January 1818, and it's a scene in which our hero Victor Frankenstein, the scientist, finally confronts his monstrous creation, the terrifying creature that he has brought to life or animated with his experiments in chemistry and in galvanic electricity." In that scene, you get a sense of Victor's horror and loathing for his own creation. Basically, his son, you might say. "Yeah." "But also, the creature's slightly unusual combination of extreme violence, I will glut the moor of death and reasoned argument." "He's like Tommy Fury." "Yeah, he's like, I expected this reception. That's sort of Roger Moorly line, I think." "Yeah, it is." "Tabby, this is one of the foundational texts in the modern imagination, isn't it? It's known to millions of people who've never read the book. The idea of the scientist creating the monster is one of the most influential in all literature and all popular culture. It's arguably the first true science fiction novel, and at its heart is this brilliant creation, this reanimated corpse, which is Frankenstein's monster." "Yeah, and it's interesting because most people think of him, the corpse, the creature, as he's known in the book as Frankenstein. He's always given his creator's name, but actually, Frankenstein, Victor Frankenstein, is the mad scientist who gives him life. But there's definitely something in that because the two of them share this strange, dualistic relationship. They are intertwined. They're like foils for each other, and yet they're also like two sides of the same coin. But the creature itself, I mean, it's such an iconic image. It features every Halloween. It's the square head, the green face. The bolts, and because of that, because it's so iconic, it's been used time and time again to represent various things. It's been used in political campaigns to personify both political opponents and kind of massive societal concerns or dangers. It's become a byword for kind of the dangers of scientific progress, the idea of the creation, destroying the creator, you know, untamed hubris, but it's also just a symbol of horror, plain horror. And obviously, a lot of that has to do with Hollywood, doesn't it? So the first film of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein was made in 1910. And actually, the monster has appeared, according to Wikipedia. Give yourself away there. Yeah, I did give myself away, but I mean, I'm not going to count them personally. No. 433 different films. And most of those actually bear no relation to Mary Shelley's novel at all. And the most recent, the end of 2025, the Guillermo del Toro film with Oscar Isaac and Jacob Laudie, I know your hate friend of the show before you give, put in your little winters to some, he is in fact a huge friend of the show. Tell me hates Jacob Laudie, don't you? No, I'm his biggest fan. But I didn't love that film altogether. I thought it messed with the plot a bit, but it had this glorious aesthetic to it, which I think was very Gothic. And obviously we'll explore later how to categorize Frankenstein as a Gothic or is it something else. But for me, one of the most fascinating parts of having read Frankenstein and started doing a bit of digging on it was it's writer Mary Shelley. And she is a remarkable woman. She's suddenly of a literary titan, a legend herself. She's very, very famous. And yet she's also been totally outshorn by the monster, her own creation, ironically. And her life was one which is very complex and unusual itself. She was only 80 years old when she wrote Frankenstein, which is extraordinary. Yeah. And I think about what I was like when I was 18, it makes me shudder. And she was very, very famously married, possibly one of the most famous literary marriages of all time to Percy Shelley, the great romantic poet. And we will dig into all of that a bit more later. And also the wonderful story about how she wrote Frankenstein, because that too is almost mythical. But before we get to that, oh tell us Dr. Frankenstein, what did you make of the book when you first encountered it? So I read it at a university and I was surprised. I think a lot of people who haven't read Frankenstein will be surprised about how unhorrifying it is. There's a lot of landscape, there's a lot of nature writing. You feel the weight of the late 18th century, kind of romantic description and so on. It's quite pen-servous, isn't it? It's quite contemplative. It's very contemplative. There's a lot of philosophising, a lot of reflection about kind of enlightenment and romantic ideals and ideas. And I didn't really, you know, I wasn't led to believe that. I thought it would be much more Gothic novel, storms overhead, castles, crumbling cellars and people locked in dungeons. And there's actually much less of that than you might expect if in your head there's all the Hollywood stuff. What about you, Debbie? Yeah, I had a very similar response to it. So I read it when I was a teenager. I was very, very into reading the classics at the time. I thought I would love it. I knew of it. I loved the idea of it. I did like it. But I like you was kind of disappointed by the fact there was no horror. It wasn't very romantic. It wasn't frightening, I thought at all. So that was a bit disappointing. But I loved, I think I was slightly in love with the idea of it more than the reality. But I was then and I still am now. I was in awe of Mary Shelley herself. I loved her whole story. I loved her relationship with Percy Shelley. So that was a big part of it for me. And actually, as we'll discuss, I think the idea of it is, to me, is still more powerful. I totally agree. Than the narrative and the writing. I think it's the genius of Frankenstein as a book is the concepts and is the interplay of ideas rather than the propulsive narrative. Yeah, and that part of it is astounding. It's both a really, really impressive and thought-provoking kind of philosophical fable. But also just the idea of it, written when it was by an 18 year old girl, totally original then. We say it wasn't frightening, but to audiences reading it then it would have been quite frightening. It is astounding. You can't undermine that at all. All right. Well, let's give people a little sense of the- This astounding idea. Yeah. Of exactly what is in the book. Because I think people know there's a scientist, there's a monster, but there's actually so much more than that. So we'll start off. So basically, the novel begins with a series of letters. It's an epistory novel, which is exactly what a lot of readers in the late 18th century, early 19th century would expect. And that definitely adds to the tension of it because you're slowly, you're being drip-fread. Yes. A series of escalating events. Yeah. Yes, exactly. So we know that Mary Shelley had been reading Samuel Richardson's great 80th century book, Clarissa, a couple of years before she started writing this. So this is clearly- this bears the imprints of her own reading. Yeah. So the letters are by a guy called Captain Walton. He's an English explorer and he's trying to discover the North Pole basically. And he tells his sister, you know, we have been on this great expedition and we've discovered with rescued this desperate sickly man who's called Victor Frankenstein. Yeah. Victor Frankenstein in the letters tells Walton his story. This is why I'm here and this is the terrible thing that has happened to me. And basically, well, why don't you take us in Tabby? He's from Geneva, isn't he? Yeah. So, Victor's from Geneva. He grows up in a very, very happy family. They are all extremely fond of each other. It's a mother, a father. They're quite well off. He has two brothers, a younger one called William and an adopted sister called Elizabeth, who his mother takes on as a ward and who is basically destined to be his future bride. He is a massive, massive science nerd from a young age. He's obsessed with concepts like the philosopher's stone. And then as a result of that, he goes and studies at the University of Ingolstadt. Then there, his scientific interest shift a bit. And he becomes obsessed with discovering the secret of life and creating a perfect being. So, he does create this living being, doesn't he? He basically gets the dead body parts of criminals. The scene very famous. This is the one seen from Frankenstein, everybody knows. Or they think they know. They think they know because it owes more to Hollywood than to the book. I've basically, Victor sewing together bits of these bodies and creating his creature. That's really what the monster is called throughout the book, The Creature. The creature comes to life. The monster is horrified by it, this very famous scene. He's like, "Good God, well, I thought this was going to be beautiful. It's actually really horrific." He wanted to create a perfect, beautiful being. And then for the minute he collapsed on it, he's repulsed. Yeah, he basically has a sort of breakdown and runs away and abandons his creature. Then he goes off to back to Geneva. And he discovers that his little brother, who you mentioned, william, has been murdered. And he knows almost instinctively this is the work of this creature. Basically, I've created this being that is now going to dog me and haunt me forever. An innocent woman is accused of the murder and she is actually hanged for it. Yeah, because Victor actually, there's only one point in the whole book that Victor admits to creating this thing because who would believe him? Anyway, as a result of this, he goes to hunt down the creature to have his vengeance on him. And there's these long passages, very, very romantic, traveling through the mountains. It's all about nature. And then he finally discovers the creature and he confronts him. And that's the scene that you and I read so beautifully at the beginning of this episode. Right. So now we've got a story within a story within a story. So the creature is telling Victor his story and Victor is telling this to Robert Walton and Robert Walton is telling it to his sister in the letters. Because at this point, when Victor and the creature meet, the creature then tells Victor his story and almost it's always like a justification for why he is the way that he is. So the creature says, look, you cast me out. The creature is very, very articulate. So this is a big difference with the Hollywood movies. The creature is extremely well spoken. The creature basically says, well, I went off, you abandoned me. I became a vegetarian. Will he start a life as a vegetarian? He wanders around the world, not knowing who he is, why he is, where he came from. He starts eating berries and nuts to survive. He actually is a vegetarian. And then he comes across this fairy tale like little hut in the woods inhabited by a very poor but very noble family. And he falls in love with them a bit. And he spends his time listening to them from their shed to them talk and discuss and debate and fairly implausibly he learns through this eavesdropping about the nature of the world, about the nature of philosophy, the human condition, and he learns to speak and to read. I never quite got how he learned to read from listening, but anyway. Yeah, he sort of pieces together because he also steals some books from them, doesn't he? Ah, he does, he does that to it. He learns to recognize. So like Plutarch's lives and Paradise Lost and whatnot. Yeah. All books that Mary Shelley was a massive fan of. Exactly. So he basically goes on this sort of education course. Anyway, eventually they see him. Yeah, he decides that he's going to talk to the blind patriarch, old father of it. That's right, yes. Because he thinks he knows that he looks different from them. So he thinks, well, I can earn the grandfather's kind of trust and fondness and respect if I speak to him. And then they do talk and they do get on very well, but then everyone else comes back, sees that he's a terrifying monster made of so of sewn together. It's of dead bodies. Yeah, exactly. And naturally they freak out and he runs away feeling abandoned, feeling rejected once more. It's his rejection that leads him down the path of kind of violence because then it's at this point that he thinks, oh gosh, my life's in ruins. I've been very hard done by it. It's all the fault of my creator. He goes in search of Victor. He goes in search of Victor, murders Victor's brother. So this is the story that the creature tells Victor. And then after this, he basically persuades Victor. He says, look, I will, I will behave myself if you will make me a mate. If you will make me, you know, I'm Adam and we'll get on to this later on. I would like you to make me an Eve, a female creature. Mrs. Frank and Stuy. Exactly Mrs. Well, Mrs. Creteer. Mrs. Creteer, Mrs. Monster. And Victor says he'll do this, but then Victor changes his mind, doesn't he? He thinks, oh, this is a terrible idea. I'm not going to do this. Yeah, because he's afraid of what they're, you know, if they breed. Yeah. What it'll do to the world. And poor behavior from Victor, I think he dumps the body of this that he's been working on of the female in the sea. So the monster's like, okay, well, all bets are off now. And he murders Victor's best friend. And Victor marries his adopted sister, Elizabeth. He murders her, the creature murders her as well on the wedding night. On the wedding night. Yeah. Which is harsh. Yeah, that seems, that seems like an extreme step to take. Personally, my sympathies as listeners would discover us, slightly with the creature, I think the creature has been hard done by. True. And Victor has behaved poorly and he's got it coming basically. Yeah, I don't know if you should murder as a result. But we'll get you all that later. All right. So Victor now says, well, fine, I'm going to hunt you down. Yeah, all bets are off. And he hunts the creature down. This is basically why they've ended up at the North Pole. Victor has tracked the creature ever further north. And this is the point at which Robert Walton finds Victor and Victor's a sort of, he's a wreck of a man. Frostbitten, depressed. Exactly. Having an existential crisis. And so then Walton continues to write letters to his sister and he says, look what happened was actually Victor ends up dying, you know, cold, misery, exhaustion, illness. Yeah. I like this bit. He sees a vast form. Yeah. A kind of hunkered over Victor's body. This is the very end of the book. And actually rather than being triumphant, the monster is the creature is miserable. He's mourning Victor. He is feeling repentant for all of the wrong that he has done the murder. As he has committed. And then, you know, mourning the loss of his father of, I mean, Victor is essentially the creature's father. He goes off. And he did, well, he tells Walton he's going to go off and throw himself onto a bonfire. So that no one like him can ever be made again. And nothing like this can ever happen again. And that's the end of the creature. The end of Walton's story and of the creature. That's the story of Victor Frankenstein and his lovable creation. Yeah. His pet creature. Now, the story behind the story is, as you say, Tabby, just as good if not better. Yeah. Then Frankenstein itself. So this is the story of Mary Shelley. So tell all please Tabby because you're a massive Mary Shelley fam. So Mary Shelley was born in London in 1797 to William Godwin, who was a very famous radical philosopher in his own day and a pioneering feminist called Mary Wallstomcraft. Yeah. And Mary's mother made her name by writing a vindication of the rights of women in 1792, which kind of highlighted the secondary status of women in society, which at that time was rarely if ever acknowledged. Anyway, this earned her a lot of admiration among a certain type, kind of the radical intelligentsia of the day, but obviously the dislike and contempt of kind of the public at large. But both Mary Wallstomcraft and William Godwin were heavily influenced by the ideals of French Revolution. And I thought this was so interesting. She actually went to France to partake in the Revolution at its height. And they were part of a small radical group in England, which they were called the English Jacobins. I'm a big fan of them. And this included people like Thomas Payne and William Blake. Okay. Wow. My absolute favourite person ever. Mary Shelley obviously grew up aware of being kind of the progeny of two extraordinary, unusual people. And she acknowledges this, which I also think is admirable because a lot of writers, maybe they'd like to kind of say that they're born some kind of divine talents and the nat genius. But she says it is not singular that as the daughter of two persons of distinguished literary celebrity, I should very early in life, a thought of writing. I think that's modest. I admire that. She's very much in the shadow of her parents as she grows up as a G. So you mentioned Mary Walsh and Kraft. She's pretty well known now as a pioneering feminist. Definitely she is. Yeah. But at the time, probably better known actually was William Godwin, this sort of radical, radical writer thinker. He was a celebrity. He wants a celebrity. He'd been a sort of dissenting minister and then became an atheist. He wrote this very celebrated attack. Well, I say celebrated, but much criticised attack on institutions like the law, government, marriage, all of these things. And he said, basically, they hold people in chains. This will be important for Frankenstein. Godwin thought that people were born basically good and innocent and in a state of nature and that they are corrupted. It's Rousseau. It's very Rousseau like. Jean-Jacques Rousseau, the Geneva philosopher, who thought similarly that people are basically good and they're corrupted by society and institutions. This is what Godwin thought as well. And actually, Tabi, I see one of your notes. You wrote the telltale words. I suspect that Dominic Sambrek would not care for him. And actually, you misjudge me because I read William Godwin's book, Caleb Williams at University. brilliant and it's a precursor of Frankenstein. So in Caleb Williams there's this chase where this guy Caleb Williams the hero has uncovered secrets about this aristocratic bloke who basically pursues them across the world and this idea of the pursuit I think clearly ends up as a sort of in Frankenstein as Victor and the creature. But let me explain myself because the reason I thought that you wouldn't necessarily approve of Godwin is because I know that you are you know you've loath hypocrites. Yeah thanks. And there is a hypocritical portion of Godwin in that even though he decried marriage he and Mary Walstincroft did eventually get married. I'd tell you that's necessarily hypocritical though I think that's a bit harsh for me. No possibly not but he did say he was very he was very against it. But he said he was so that you know to make her happier because Mary was pregnant with Mary Shelley the future Mary Shelley. Anyway he was definitely definitely a brilliant brilliant man and as you say his writing and his political views would influence all of Mary Shelley's works her whole life not just Frankenstein. Anyway her mother Mary Walstincroft tragically died just after Mary was born relating to you know complications to do with the birth. And this left Godwin totally, totally bereft and Mary and her half sister who was born from a an affair that her mother had earlier were left to him and he therefore got married again to their neighbor to their neighbor exactly Mary Jane Claremont because he thought that you know the girls needed some kind of motherly warmth to raise them. And she wooed him she chatted him up with the famous line. Is it possible that I behold the immortal Godwin that who wouldn't fall for that? I mean that would do it for me for sure. Definitely definitely. So now Mary Shelley's being brought up by William Godwin who's because he chilly as a father actually. Yeah he's invested in her for sure and cares a lot about her but he's a very cold unemotional man. And also this stepmother who's sort of you know slight element of the wicked stepmother about it because Mary Shelley grows up to loath her but also the stepmother brings with her a daughter called Jane who basically Mary absolutely loads. She's the worst person ever I don't blame Mary. Mary said of Jane she had the faculty of making me more uncomfortable than any human being. I love that line. I really like that. So Mary you know she's very bookish. She reads loads of gothic novels and epistory novels and stuff growing up you know as a teenager but she's always very much in her father's shadow because her father is always trying to educate her and encourage her to be high-minded and stuff. And he's also got this huge kind of contacts book of mates you know Samuel Taylor Cold Ridge and great writers and stuff who are pitching up at their house and talking about ideas and radical views and the French Revolution and stuff. So Mary that's always going on a Mary's head. I mean it's an extraordinary environment in which to be brought up some of the greatest minds of that time spent you know were in that house chatting stuff. There's a wonderful story about how once when she was a little girl she wanted to she was told to go to bed but Samuel Taylor Cold Ridge was reciting The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner which is obviously really really really long. And you know God was trying to get Mary to bed and then slightly desperately cold Ridge begged that she and Mary sister were allowed to stay up to hear the rest of it which I really like so obviously all of this will have had a massive influence on Mary and her father attested to the fact that she was very very clever. He wrote it in a letter to a friend but he also said that she would make castles in the clouds which I really really like she'd kind of get easily distracted and then she was singly bold somewhat imperious and active of mind so there you go her desire of knowledge is great and her perseverance and anything she undertakes almost invincible. So I like that that's a really really nice sketch of her. But then he also added my daughter as I believe very pretty. Yeah a bit weird. You find out a bit weird. I do I find that slightly sinister. I mean maybe everyone thinks that about their own daughter don't they? Yeah maybe. Anyway talking about her being very pretty and also Godwin having all these friends and disciples so when she's in her early to mid teens it's not exactly clear when probably in the 1812s that she would be 14 or 15. She first sees a bloke who's turned up he's in his very late teens probably 19 or 20 who's a huge fan of her father who is himself a poet who is himself very sort of hotheaded and excitable and romantic and who's himself very radical so suffused with the idealism of the French Revolution and this is a young man called Percy Bisch Shelley the poet. Yeah and he's crucially for Godwin he's rich isn't he so he's going to lend Godwin loads of money which is great for Godwin. Yeah he's well born and rich he's going to inherit a barrenessy which will make him even richer. Yeah and basically he and Mary end up falling in love which is a slight problem A because Mary's very young so when they definitely fall in love she's 16. The other big problem he's also married isn't he? He's married a woman called Harriet to her older she's 19 or so. Yeah so this is poor from Percy. Yeah especially as Harriet would later go on to drown herself in the serpentine when she was only 21. Because of this affair right? Yeah because Percy left her you know by the end of June she'd basically think of such there's such a short time now that's passed between Mary and Percy's meeting. Percy Shelley has essentially abandoned her even by that and he spent most of his time at the Godwin's house visiting daily and the two of them marry then Godwin and Percy Shelley would go on searing hot dates to a graveyard the graveyard where her mother was buried to whisper sweet nothings over her grave and they were always accompanied by their famous third wheel Mary's loathed step sister Jane. Right so Jane's now she's now calling herself Claire very confusingly. Yeah she does go on to rename herself Claire. Finally on the 28th of July in 1814 Mary and Percy finally alope to the continent obviously once more accompanied by Jane now at this point Claire and there's always been some speculation that because Jane was Claire was always there she and Percy were also lovers but there's absolutely no evidence to back that up. Right the person who was carrying on with both of them. Yeah anyway a bit like that scene in the famous scene in the graduate when you get to the end of the movie and Dustin Hoffman's character and kind of his love interest is sitting on the bus and they've run away from a wedding. They kind of sit there and they suddenly look kind of a bit depressed and bleak because they've done the shocking thing. The allotment this tour of Europe turns out to be a total disaster. The three of them are penniless. They travel from place to place, friendless. It's just a disaster. It's the worst kind of honeymoon ever although crucially they are not married because Percy Shelley is still married at this point. And they end up coming back to England. They've got massive money problems because they're dead. Yeah they're in huge debt. Mary has a child. She has Percy Shelley's child a girl but the child dies after only a few days. This is a tragic part of Mary's life as well. Yeah she has a lot of bad luck right? Yeah of the four children that she has or only one of them survives and there's this very touching dream that she recounts on her journal about when this first baby dies and she dreams that she's sitting in front of the fire holding it and the baby dies and then she rubs its corpse and the heat of the flames brings it back to life. There's something kind of very human about that. Yeah but the idea of reanimating somebody who's dead I mean you see why that would be on her mind and as you're talking of that let's get on to the writing of the book. Yeah iconic. So basically they go back to Europe down there. She has a son called William at the beginning of 1816 and they after that decide they go back to Europe. They go to Geneva in Switzerland and they meet up with Shelley's another of Shelley's great heroes another romantic poet Lord Byron. Yeah who is staying at Villa Diodati on the shores of the lake. An extra little free song here because Claire formerly Jane is now having an affair with Byron so there's a real sort of mainage kind of kind of feel to this. It's all you would expect of the romantic poet. It is. They're on the lake but it's actually fun at first they're going having parties outside they're going swimming in whatever but 1816 notoriously is the year without a summer there's been a volcanic eruption in the dutch East Indies as they would then were and that means that's basically no summer it's very wet and cold and stormy and so actually as the weeks pass they spend an awful lot of them cooped up inside in this villa and they've got nothing to do and this is the context for the writing of Frankenstein. Yeah it's absolutely wonderful so at night they've been sitting around reading loads of German ghost stories and one evening Byron and I think this is a brilliant idea Byron says well to pass the time let's all try to write our own ghost story so they have all have a go. Shelley Percy Shelley starts by writing a story about himself and that fizzles out. Byron then starts telling a story about a vampire which is friend and doctor John Polodori who's also there later adapts and turns into a short story called the vampire and then Mary is desperate to and I quote make it to write a tale that makes the reader dread to look around to curdle the blood and quicken the beatings of the heart but nothing comes to her she she can't think of anything and every day they ask her where's your story Mary and she's like oh I still don't have one. Yeah she's got to do because she literally says you know they would say have you thought of a story and each morning I was forced to reply with a mortifying negative because she wants something really good and she doesn't want to just phone it in. Yeah she wants to be equals with them as well I think. Of course she's young and they're much older and she's a woman and she doesn't want to be patronized by these frankly very in I find them very annoying. I don't. Romantic poets. But at one point she's listening to Percy and Byron and they're wittering on about science and about the principles of life and basically they say what talk about this in the second half about the scientific ideas behind Frankenstein. They say What do any of this life come from? How can you animate? could it be something to do with electricity? Could you, with galvanic experiments, could you manufacture a creature and give it life somehow? And she listens to them talking about this, and then she goes to bed, and she basically has a waking nightmare, doesn't she? She can't sleep, so it's not like she's asleep, but her mind is running amok, and she has this vision. Tell us about the vision. - Oh, it's wonderful. She sees this pale, she calls it, a pale student of unhalowed arts, kneeling beside the thing he had put together. I saw the hideous phantasm of a man stretched out, and then on the working of some powerful engine shows signs of life and stir with an uneasy half-vital motion. So you can see right there from the start that she sees this as something that's dangerous, which is the opposite from Byron and Shelley, who are excited by this idea, the idea of mankind being able to engineer life. And she also writes, "Frightful must it be, for supremely frightful "would be the effect of any human endeavor "to mock the stupendous mechanism of the creator of the world." So she's frightened by it, by this vision that she has a pale student creating a terrifying monster. And she says, she thinks that the student would be terrified of what he has created, totally understandably. Because the student, it's really interesting, Byron and Shelley, you know, among the romantic poets, it was fashionable to affect a kind of atheism and a kind of cynicism and whatnot. But, you know, the teenage Mary Shelley is saying, "To mock God, to play God, "gosh, that would be overwhelming and terrifying and awful." And you would be appalled by the consequences of what you would done. And she says the artist would surely, then this interesting, she calls it, the artist rather than the artist. The artist would rush away from his odious andy work, and she imagines that the artist is asleep, and then the curtains of his bedside opening and these yellow watery but speculative eyes of the creature staring down at him. And this is the inspiration for the story. - I love that origin story. And it's actually true. You know, there are so many myths around about how people write legendary books, but it's actually true. She records it in her own journal. It's brilliant. So she says, "Strift as light and as cheering "was the idea that broke in upon me. "I have found it. "What terrified me will terrify others. "And I need only describe the specter "which had haunted my midnight pillow." So there you go. She's got the ghost story to tell Byron, Shelley and the rest of them. - Yeah, so she tells them the story, doesn't she starts writing it down? - Yeah. - And she starts with the words, "It was a dreary night of November." Which actually, that's basically, she uses that exact phrase in the book. And at first she thinks, "Oh, this would just be a short story." But actually they say, "God, what a brilliant story this is. "This is incredible." And Shelley says, "Oh, I think you should turn this "into a novel." There's definitely a book in this. And this is what she does. And so when they go back to England, she's working on the book. And in 1818, Frankenstein or the modern Prometheus, again, we'll talk about this Prometheus aspect. - Crucial subtitle. - This is published anonymously. She doesn't tell anybody that she's done it. And actually, do you know what? The reviews aren't very good. Are they? People don't like it. - I know. They actually, a lot of them reminded me of the reviews for "Wuthering Heights" which we did a couple of weeks ago. They kind of say that it's almost immoral. They basically say it's kind of, it's fiendish and outrageous. - Yeah. - There's one wonderful review by a guy called William Beckford. - Gothic writer. - Yeah, a Gothic writer. So, I mean, that's quite telling in itself. He doesn't acknowledge this as kind of a Gothic work. But he writes, "This is perhaps the foulest toadstool "that has yet sprung up from the wreaking dung hill "of the present times." - Well. - So, ouch. - Yeah. - There's a reason that that's before. - But on the plus side, Walter Scott is actually quite positive about it and he's a huge inspiration for Mary as he is to, Emily Bronte, some of the kind of genre. - Yeah. - Anyway, the key takeaway from these reviews is, they don't know that Mary Shelley has written it. So, they assume that it must have been written by either her kind of legendary father, - Yes. - This famous radical or her husband, another famous radical. - Yeah, Percy. - Yeah. - Yeah, exactly. And then it's only in the addition, the second edition that comes out in 1823, that they realized it was written by a woman and they're absolutely shocked by this. And this shockingly patronizing line is written in black words. For a man, it was excellent, but for a woman, it was wonderful. Oh, black words led itself down there. - Yeah, so cover for a woman is really good. Wow, well done, you, Mary. Well done, you. - But you see, there's a lot of controversy at the time about, and speculation about, whether or not Mary Shelley actually wrote it, or, you know, it was kind of, her hand was guided by the two main men in her life. And I think actually, you still see this even now. I actually saw somebody writing about this on social media, actually, about a week ago saying, you know, obviously Percy Shelley wrote Frankenstein, it's obviously nonsense that Mary wrote it. I mean, this is rubbish. - Yeah, we're gonna put the record straight once and for all. - Totally. So we have the evidence of her journals. We have the evidence of Byron writing about it. Byron says it was a wonderful work for a girl of 19. Now, that is patronizing and condescending, but at least Byron is admitting that she wrote it, not his mate. But for Byron, who is often quite rude about women, that is high praise indeed. - But also, I've been to, in the Bodling Library in Oxford, they have the manuscripts of Frankenstein. They have the hand written manuscript, and I've seen it because I was filmed with it for a series about science fiction on the BBC about 10 years ago. If you look at the manuscript, the hand written, you can see Shelley's suggestions, his notes, and you can see where Mary has ignored them, and you can see all the stuff written in her own hand. - Yeah, Shelley definitely advised her, helped her, all the way through the process, but it is her work, and it is her words, and it's her writing. But there is one way in which Percy Shelley was had a massive impact upon Frankenstein, and that is in the character of Victor Frankenstein himself, because there's a lot to suggest that Percy Shelley was kind of the original model for Frankenstein. - Yeah. - A lot of the characters that Percy Shelley writes about in his own writing and poetry, they are themselves kind of Icarus characters. They fly too close to the sun, they're overreaching, they're really ambitious, they're really invested in the idea of themselves as kind of creative forces, and the creative powers within them. This is very poor from Percy Shelley, but when he was younger and a child, he would call himself victory, which-- - Nice. - Yeah. You did that too, didn't you? - Always. - Yeah, always. - Still do, deep down. (laughing) - Victory Sandbrook. Sandbrook the Conqueror. Yeah, I like it, it sounds right. But this is what Mary Shelley was originally going to call Victor Frankenstein. - All right, she was going to call him victory. - Victory, yeah, she was going to call him victory. Like Frankenstein, Victor Frankenstein, Percy Shelley was obsessed with the natural world as all romantic poets are. And he had this habit, which is kind of ironic given that he later drowned in a boat. Because he had this habit of lying at the bottom of boats and looking up at the clouds and it would kind of make him think and give him peace. And that's exactly what Victor Frankenstein does in Frankenstein. - And also Percy was a, I remember doing a thing on the rest is history, another podcast. I mean, who's ever heard of that podcast? - No. (laughing) - Which I can remember your first episode, Tabby, when you were producing, was about boarding schools and how people would pursue Shelley around Eaton, shouting, "The Shelley, the Shelley, they'll go on Shelley hunts and try to beat him up." And one reason was that he was too interested in science which they thought was weird. - Yeah, he was a science nerd, which people wouldn't think when they think about romantic poets. 'Cause they're often kind of juxtaposed, aren't they? Science and romanticism. - Yeah, they're seen as polar opposites. But actually, the romantics were very interested in science. Shelley, when he was at Eaton, then at Oxford, he'd be always like, have batteries coming over his pockets or something, being doing an electric experiment or whatever. - Yeah, fun stuff like that. - Yeah, what a funster he was. - But the weird thing is, a friend of his, wrote an account of the kind of experiments that he used to conduct. And they bear a weird resemblance to the way that the creatures birth and creation is portrayed in the movies that have been done of Frankenstein. Because it's all about kind of big jars, full of water and electricity and batteries and stuff. You know, he charged, there's a friend right, he charged a battery of several large jars, laboring with vast energy and discoursing with increasing environments of the marvelous powers of electricity. He speaks about thunder and lightning and how channeling this thunder and lightning into the water or whatever it is would create something marvelous. And that is so, that looks exactly how you imagine the creatures birth. - But it also captures the curiosity, the vision, the ambition, the excitement of science and indeed of anybody interested in the kind of the world of the intellect in the 1790s and 1800s. You know, this sense that you're kind of breaking through frontiers of understanding and leading mankind into this wonderful new age. And that vision is so central to Victor Frankenstein's sense of what he's doing when he makes the creature. - It's totally, totally, it's not, but ironically, there's very little resemblance to that scene, the idea of jars, lightning thunder, which is very little resemblance to the creature's birth in Frankenstein itself. And we will touch on that later. - So we've probably had enough about Mary and Percy 'cause I think what this does really want is they want Victor Frankenstein as monster, no? - Yeah. - Right, so after the break, we will discuss the question that haunts the producers of this show, which one is the real monster we'll find out after the break? (upbeat music) Welcome back to the book club. Now Dominic, at the break, you were telling us all how hurt you had been by some of the comparisons that we made in the first office episode. So going forwards, I will restrain from comparing you to Victor Frankenstein. - Yeah, it was very, very hurtful to be. - I know, I know you're practically crying to our producer. But I have one final request to make of you in the guys of Victor Frankenstein. Yeah. Would you please use your scientific powers to bring the man, the myth, the legend that is Victor Frankenstein and his monstrous creation back to life? Okay, well this is brilliant, Badenog. It is. So let's start. Actually, let's start not with Victor, but counterintuitively with his monster because it's beyond to be honest. When people think about Frankenstein, it's the monster that they actually think of first, isn't it? Undoubtedly, yeah. So he is born in the lab. So if you've seen the films, you can imagine the electricity fizzing rather like a repartee in this episode. Yeah, just as animated. Just as animated exactly. And actually, in the book, there is no electricity fizzing. It is much a sort of dark or more intimate scene. And actually, Tabby, why don't you read remind listeners of this scene because it's the sort of physicality of it, but also the shock of Victor when he sees the monster. It's one of the most memorable scenes in the book. But we should also say that we don't see anything to do with the practicalities involved in his creation. Everything, all of that happens offstage. There's no illusion to vast jars full of green liquid or anything like that. We come in from the moment that the creature is born. So he says, how can I describe my emotions at this catastrophe or how delineate the retch whom with such infinite pains in care I had endeavored to form? His limbs were in proportion. I had selected his features as beautiful, beautiful, great god. His yellow skin scarcely covered the work of muscles and arteries beneath. His hair was of a lustrous black and flowing. His teeth of pearly whiteness. But these luxuriances only formed a more horrid contrast with his watery eyes that seemed almost of the same color as the done white sockets in which they were set. His shriveled complexion and straight black lips. So he has chose, I mean, Victor thought the creature was going to be beautiful. He chases features accordingly. But a really important point is something that Victor and indeed Mary Shelley, Hammer Home again and again, he is utterly repulsive when left in no doubt whatsoever that this creature is absolutely repugnant. You see it and you are repelled. So when he comes into the boat towards the end of the book, Captain Walton says he was gigantic in stature yet distorted and uncouth in proportions. I mean, he's not unlike the orcs in the Lord of the Rings in Tolkien's vision, which is again, of a kind of distorted, perverted humanity. That's what the creature is. And yet one of the key things about the creature that I think the Hollywood Frankenstein obviously completely misses is this. He is articulate, he's sensitive, he's very well spoken, he's thoughtful, he's reflective. He's curious. You know, Tabby, you're actually a big fan of the creature, aren't you? I am. I'm a massive fan of the creature. I see myself in him frankly, because he is very, very intelligent. He learns that a ridiculously fast rate. He is contemplative. He is fiercely curious. He's actually very gentle at the beginning of his life. He's really, really thoughtful and rational, actually. And the seven central chapters of Frankenstein, which are the creatures telling his story, they're kind of the moral heart of the book. They provide the moral underpinning to the whole story. And interestingly, that is the bit that has always cut out of movie adaptations, because I think people find it a bit boring, but also because it's the part of the novel that humanizes the monster. It turns him into kind of a thinking, feeling, being, because the thing is though he looks like a monster through learning, through eavesdropping on this family, he develops the emotions and the moral compass of a human and he feels like a human. Yes, he absolutely does. And so I think that by putting those chapters on screen, you don't get the hammer horror monster, short-cropped hair, bolts that maybe you're going for. You get a really interesting, quite sympathetic person almost. Of course you do. Absolutely, you do. I mean, I think when you're in those chapters, you get Mary Shelley's, a lot of her philosophical vision, a lot of her vision for the character, which is actually trying to say. So when he, he's fled the lab, his creator, he doesn't know who his creator is or why his creator has abandoned him. Or why he's there. Like we all kind of slightly want to know why we exist. Of course. It's what inspires people to kind of look to God or whatever it may be, but he has no idea. Yeah, this is getting to the humanity of the creature, to his essential humanity. The creature wakes in the forest, like man in the garden of Eden. He looks around with wonder. He goes in search of berries. He's naked and he finds a cloak and he clothes himself. He is delighted by what he hears. He tries to imitate the singing of the birds and so on. It's so sweet. It's childlike, actually. It is childlike. Exactly. He's like a child, you know, awaking into life. And then he sees this family, the people who live in the cottage, the cottages. And he thinks they're wonderful. And he wants to emulate them. But this very moving scene, very sad scene, he looks in a pool and he starts back in horror. I was unable to believe that it was indeed I who was reflected in the mirror because he's so loathsome and horrible. Basically, it's like what I feel like when I look in the mirror, it's Abby. I know. He's got my fragile self-esteem. You are nothing but a sensitive Frankenstein's monster. Thank you. But that also echoes the garden of Eden. You know when Adam and Eve become self-aware and they try to cover themselves with fig leaves. Exactly. This is the self-awareness that comes with knowledge. And he says at one point, "Oh, that I had forever remained in my native wood, nor no, nor felt beyond the sensations of hunger, thirst and heat." In other words, the more I know about myself and the world, the unhappier I become. And as we said, that's very, very russot, a genealphalocifer. So no coincidence that large sways of this book are set in Geneva. Because he idealises the innocence and nature. He believed that humans were, as you said, born good, born innocent, but society and institutions corrupt us. And Rousseau was a massive influence on Mary's father, Godwin, who also believed that institutions crafted by human society were destructive forces and ruined the human heart, the human soul. So these chapters are just pure Rousseau, a state of innocence, the garden of Eden, the more the monster learns, the more corrupted he becomes. Yeah. I mean, the monster's begun life as basically a member of the Green Party. He's eating berries. He's being kind. He's got very poor self-esteem or those kinds of things that we associate with members of the Green Party. And then he becomes evil. So he crosses the political spectrum and he becomes a member of reform. Oh, Tabi, look, I'm going to go there. I'm going there. He's literally to our reform voting listeners. I mean, I, you know, distance myself from Tabi's remarks. And I apologise to our three Green Party listeners. Right. I mean, we've got three members who are all members of the Green Party, what a coincidence. A few percent of our audience will be Green Party members. Anyway, he becomes evil. He does become corrupt, and he becomes a killer. Of women and children. I mean, he's literally a child murderer. That is definitely definitely not something that you can defend the creature on. He springs to violence so quickly and so instinctively. And actually, one of the things that I really came away from reading this again was the sensation of those hands around a neck. You know, his strangulation of his victims is terrible and terrifying. But having said that, he's not just a pantomime villain. He's conflicted. He's full of remorse for the murders that he commits. And he says it himself that he is a wretch. And that's definitely not what you get in kind of the classic horror films, which he plays a big part. And that makes him pitiful. Yeah, he's got a self-loathing. He's the eternal outcast, yeah. Yeah, one of the most moving things about the creature, actually, is that is a very human feeling, which is his feeling of loneliness, of isolation. Frank Sinatra's monster doesn't even have a name, which is sad. No, exactly. The fact that everyone calls him Frank and Steinemann, that's the ultimate. That would be gutting for the monster. So of course it would. I mean, he, it's like he doesn't have an identity. His identity is only his creator. And his creator doesn't even want him. So because of all that, and in spite of his appalling violence, I did really pissy the monster at the end of it all. Yeah. And the monster obviously does have a four runner. He has a model who has a very famous name. So the title page of the book is a, has a quotation from John Milton's 17th century epic poem, Paradise Lost. One of my favourite poems ever. I love it. Well, really? Yeah. I've never read, I've never read the whole of Paradise Lost. So. I want to do it on the show one day. Yeah, we should. Anyway, we digress. So the quotation runs as follows. Did I request the maker from my clay to mold me man? Did I solicit thee from darkness to promote me? And basically this is Adam, the first man talking to God in the garden of Eden saying, did I ask you to make me from clay? Did I ask you to awaken me from darkness? Now Mary, you know, she loved Paradise Lost, like Utaby. Sure, it's twice in 1815 and 1816. John Milton had actually stayed at the villa, the Villa D'ardati on the banks of Lake Geneva where they were staying when she'd come up with a story. And the theme of Adam and God runs right through the book. The monster himself alludes to it at one point. So he steals Paradise Lost from the cottages. He reads it and he says, I am basically a worse version of Adam. I was apparently united by no link to any other being in existence. But then he says the difference to me in Adam. Adam was created by God as perfect, happy and prosperous, guarded by the special care of his creator. But I am ready. It should help plus an alone. I have no creator looking after me as Adam did. - Yeah, so I mean, in that he's kind of like a mannequin, Adam, who is a different version of the Adam in the Bible, but he chastises his maker for making him, rather than kind of being grateful. But there are other points in the novel where he's compared to another character in Paradise Lost, and that is Satan. He actually refers to himself time and time again as a fiend. And Satan is the angel in Paradise Lost, the former angel who falls from heaven because he rebels, and therefore lives out his life in hell. He lives in hell. And the creature actually says, "Many times I consider Satan as the fitter emblem of my condition, for often like him, when I viewed the bliss of my protectors, the bitter gourd of envy rose within me." And that ambiguity is undoubtedly central to the book. Is the creature an innocent Adam, or a cruel and vindictive or certainly rebellious Satan? Is he the first man, Adam, which would make him like us, or is he the devil, essentially? I agree. This is the ambiguity that has been so enduring about Frankenstein. To me, it's actually, in some ways, the deeper meaning of the story, that it's not just a story about man playing God, which would be a man pretending to be God and the creature as some terrible aberration. I think the idea that the creature is us, and Victor is God, or Victor, that the story is man's horror and rage and resentment at his own creator. And that's the idea that so many science fiction, let's think of Blade Runner, for example. Blade Runner, the replicants, their fury at their own creator, who's made them and put them in the world, and they have a shelf life in which will, and they will expire. Their horror, their condition clearly echoes the creature's feelings of incomprehension, and alienation, and abandonment, and whatnot, from Victor. It's interesting, though. It occurs to me that Mary Shelley must have a very cynical view, then, of humanity in the human heart, because it implies the man corrupts man, and the longer that we live among humans, the kind of fowler and more degenerate we become. But in a way, that's her father, and his ideas about institutions, corrupting us and whatnot. I mean, these radicals, they had this sort of idealized view of human innocence, but at the same time, they believed that the world was for, you know, they were obsessed with all the things that were wrong with the world, and all the inequality and all the injustice and whatnot, and all the things that we had, that the prison we had built for ourselves, I guess. Yeah, but it's interesting, then, because if the monster, therefore, is man, is us in the story, what then does that make Victor? Is he God, or is he emblematic of human institutions? So, I mean, I think this is a good point for us to talk, a little bit about Victor, because his name is probably the most famous part of this novel, but people very rarely know much about him. They just think of the monster. Yeah, we don't even get a description of him, right? No physical description. He's just described having wild eyes, which is why I think Oscar Isaac was a very, very good choice for him, physically. But also the way that he played him is very controlling and proud and kind of bent on his own selfish ends. Yeah. Because Victor Crown can sign in the novel, he's not entirely likable. He's incredibly ambitious. He's a bit of a glory seeker. His name Victor points to that. His creature described him as self-devoted. And I think he is. I think he's a very selfish man. He never considers for a moment that his creation might do bad, rather than entirely doing good. You know, he thinks himself as a bit of a savior. And he doesn't think much about what he has done. Think much about how his creature has destroyed his family. Yes, he feels very guilty about what his creature does, but he doesn't stay with his family and kind of mourn with them. He's just constantly running off to chase the creature again. Well, the creature lives in his head, right? Right? I mean, he's obsessed with the creature. But he is definitely brave. He is loving. And I think those elements of him, this pathos makes him kind of a tragic figure, a bit like a figure from East Coast or something like that, rather than entirely evil. There's a sense of the Greek tragedy about him, undone by his own hubris, I guess. But there is, I mean, you talk about Victor and his family. There's one relationship that he completely neglects. And that's the paternal relationship, because he never feels any responsibility towards his creature. He never shows the creature any mercy or compassion. He's maddened with hatred. He talks about his abhorrence of the creature. He says, you know, my hatred and revenge, burst all bounds and moderation. Victor feels guilt about creating the creature, but he doesn't feel any obligation to the creature. And actually, you could argue Victor is its father. Yeah. And Victor should embrace it. I mean, that's what the creature wants, right? Yeah, I mean, if Victor is God, people always refer, you know, Christians always refer to God as the father. I think one of the things that Mary Shelley is saying, she's not just warning of kind of unchecked ambition or the depths that science might plunder in the world. I think she's also saying that if we do, if humanity does use science to create, we have to be shepherds of our creation. You know, we are responsible for it. And Victor neglects his creation entirely from the moment of its birth. I mean, that famous scene where they confront each other on the glass here for the first time. And the creature is telling Victor his story. The creature says to Victor, I'm asking, basically, I'm asking you for recognition and affection. You might create a detest and spurn me, thy creature. Do your duty towards me and I will do mine towards you and the rest of mankind. And then Victor rejects him and says, you know, I'm not interested in you, you're horrible, you're a terrible person, whatever. And then I think actually quite moving lines. The creature says, oh Frankenstein, remember I am thy creature, I ought to be thy Adam, but I'm rather the fallen angel, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, make me happy and I shall again be virtuous. And that basically is the creature's story and not shell. He's desperate for a father. He says I was born good, but I've been driven to evil. I've been made vengeful. Please show me a crime of affection. And then I'll be a good person. And Victor can never bring himself to do it. But the book isn't just about the responsibility of the creator. It's also about hubris and humility. So this introduces another major theme, which is the consequences of man playing God and unleashing his creation upon the world of terrible force of destruction. Yeah, and this is made very obvious in the subtitle, which is the modern Prometheus. So in many ways, this is one of the real keys to the book, the idea of Prometheus. That's how you're the classicist. So Prometheus, you're all over Prometheus, I assume. Yeah, love it, love it. So there are two Prometheus myths. There's one that's more famous from Greek mythology in which the titan Prometheus steals fire from the limping gods and gives it to man who he has modeled out of clay. Both Byron and Shelley loved this version of it and turned Prometheus into a romantic hero. But then there's another later edition of the story from Ovid and we know that Mary had been reading Metamorphoses in 1815. And this is a Prometheus who kind of manipulates men into life from clay. So in this sense, Frankenstein is a very Promethean figure. He's a maker of men. And while Prometheus in that version of the story does it with magic, Victor obviously uses science, which is obviously music to your ears. Isn't that a romantic? Yes, exactly. I love science. I absolutely love science. I think actually this book is a warning about what happens if you take an unhealthy interest in science. Nothing good. That's a comfort to me, because I take very little interest in science. Yeah, great. Well, this is one of the-- I mean, this is why we're a good team, because neither of us knows anything about science. Yeah, we complement each other in that way. So Victor is a boy like Percy Shelley, obsessed with chemistry, all of this kind of thing, wants to learn the secrets of heaven and earth. He's very clearly reflecting the mood of the late 18th, early 19th century, the enlightenment, this idea of curiosity, of progress, and so on. And they would have these arguments. People would have these arguments. They're so common at the time people would have them publicly in the newspapers or whatever. What is life? What makes life different from death? Does it have anything to do with electricity? Is there some sort of spark that animates the body like an electric current? And you can see all of that reflected in the book. Yeah, you totally can. And we know that Mary Shelley was fascinated by these arguments, because she would often attend lectures on them. Anyway, there were all kinds of experiments going on in the 1780s and '90s and 1800s to see if you could bring a corpse back to life. It's so interesting that the minute that human science advanced enough, the first question to spring into people's minds was life, animation. What gave us all life? Anyway, so they started digging into this a bit. And they tried to see if you could bring corpses back to life using electricity, which had recently been discovered. And you can see why this would interest someone like Mary Shelley, who'd been afflicted by death her whole life. And then remember again, the dream that she had about warmth, bringing her baby back to life. So in 1781, I never thought I'd be giving a science measure. In 1781, an Italian surgeon was dissecting a frog and next to some big static electricity machine. How did that machine work? Do you want to explain how the static electricity machine worked? I could, but I don't feel like it, because I've got a lot to say about books and stuff. So just a pocket. I'll tell you after. Yeah, I'll tell you after. Anyway, so because this scalpel was near this big electric machine, when he started, when he put it on the frog's leg, the frog's legs started twitching. And this was huge. And then his nephew, a guy called Aldini, took it a whole lot of her, a whole lot of her, an 1881. And what he would do is he would tool Europe and he would publicly try to animate the corpses of murderers or criminals. - Yeah. using electricity. And this is so Victor Frankenstein, 'cause if you read the reports that Aldini wrote about these experiments, and I did read a little bit of one, there's this kind of creepy, the same creepy relish in his, the way he describes these very gory experiments as Victor has the fanatical, you know, scientific twinkle. But then one day, he inserted metal rods into the jaw of one criminal and the corpse, the jaw of the corpse began to quiver and can tort, and it's left eye actually opened. This scene is done brilliantly in Guarante de L'Altaro's new movie, I have to say. So there we have it. In real life, the origin of the experiment that Victor Frankenstein conducts to bring his monster to life. But obviously, it's much, much more literal in the book, we never get anything, this direct. - Yeah, 'cause we don't really see all this. I have to say, that would be kind of interesting to see. - Oh, totally a word. - Yeah, I mean, I know it sounds a bit gory and a bit macabre, but I would be, I mean, I'm sorry, I'm giving myself away here, but I would actually pay good money to see people. - It's interesting though, I made me wonder, do you think there are still kind of scientific experiments going on in the world where people, scientists are desperately trying to do this, 'cause it's funny that we started at the very beginning, huge strides and science that's bringing people back to life. But you don't hear a lot about that these days when we've come a whole lot further. I don't know, just made me wonder. - No, you're very rarely read about scientists trying to bring back people, both shoving metal rods into the jaw. - Yeah, I feel like in that sense, we've digressed. We've regressed. We've gone backwards as a society. - We've gone backwards. - Well, anyway, I guess the point from Mary Shelley though that's so interesting is that she thinks all of this is so dangerous that she is not as enthused about it as so many people are, because for her, Victor's enthusiasm for this and his thirst for knowledge and his thirst for mastery over the laws of nature. - Plundering nature, yeah. - She finds this apparent and she thinks this will have terrible consequences both for Victor and for society, for humanity at large. And in that sense, again, you can see how this foreshadows so many of the warnings that you get in modern contemporary science fiction. That our hubris, our enthusiasm for science is what will destroy us. - Yeah, and also obsession. Victor's thoughtless obsession is a massive red flag in the book. But as you mentioned earlier, thinking about the influence of this on later fiction, not even just science fiction, you can see a lot of this in Lord of the Rings, can't you? Kind of the wizard, Saruman, plundering, middle earth. - Yeah, completely. So I was thinking there's a bit at the beginning of the book when Robert Walton, so even Robert Walton, the guy is telling us the story, the sort of sea captain. He says to Victor, you know, I'm really desperate to find the North Pole. And he says, "How gladly I would sacrifice my fortune, my existence, my every hope for the furtherance of my enterprise." And he says, "Life and death is nothing to me because what I want is the knowledge, the dominion I should acquire and transmit over the elemental foes of our race, the elemental foes being the laws of nature and whatnot." And that is the kind of thing that you can imagine when a Tolkien's villains, Sarah Mads, Sarah on whatever, or any mad scientist in any number of films, saying that the threat here is not so much, I think, science per se. - No. - It's arrogance. It's the first for mastery and for knowledge at any cost, which is again, is a very Tolkienian, if that's the word, which it isn't sort of theme. - But you know what else it reminded me of, having recently watched the finale, it reminded me of Stranger Things. But not just, yeah, totally it did. You know, mad scientists plundering the laws of nature. - Yeah. - And as a result unleashing unforeseen dark terrors on the world, it's also a very drastic park. It's very the terminator. And because Victor's initial intention in creating the monster, so he says, is to find cures for diseases. Just as Raleini, Raleini said that the reason that he was conducting his experiments was to save people from drowning, to bring people from drowning back to life. But people even say that of AI today, you know, they say it'll change the world, not necessarily for the better, but it's all okay, because it will revolutionize medicine and that will save lives. So that, you just got to, it's extraordinary what Mary Shelley was doing when she wrote this. The precedent that she set, like these ideas were totally original when she was writing this book. - Yeah, it's what makes it so foundational. It's what makes it, I think, without any question. One of the two or three foundational science fiction texts, because so much of science fiction tends to ask, what if the science fiction also, you know, a huge theme of it is what we do with our power and our knowledge and how far will we go and how much will we destroy in the sort of pursuit of progress. - Yeah. - And Frankenstein and the idea of creating life. I mean, any story about a sentient robot or a computer that comes to life or a creation or some, you know, advance that humanity has made that ends up having disastrous consequences. They all, at some level, I think come back to this book, written by this, effectively, by this teenager and a miserable holiday, with the rain pouring down outside to basically try and entertain her slightly annoying mates. - Yeah, and her ghastly steps are still looking on. - But it is not just a trailblazing science fiction novel. It's also more retro than that, because it's also undoubtedly a romantic novel. You know, it's full of scenes of nature, the bliss, the sublime bliss of nature, the healing force of nature. That's very, very romantic. And also the romantic movement believed that you could shock. It's all about emotion. It's a very emotional book. But they believe that you could shock emotion out of people and that was important. And some of the more chilling scenes in the novel do just that, you know, the idea of this terrifying monster with its hands around a small boy's neck, the idea of animating life. But it's not just that. It's also very much a Gothic novel. And you mentioned how Mary Shelley was reading a lot of Gothic fiction. She read it all throughout her life, but also around the time that she was writing Frankenstein. Books like The Mysteries of Adolfo, The Monk, these are the Gothic novels of the period. - Yeah, the canonical Gothic novels. - Exactly. And this book is just, it's full of the Gothic, full of suspense, full of storms and sudden appearances. Isolated gloomy settings, graveyards, channel houses, the psychological torment of Frankenstein and, well, pretty much all the characters in the book. The relentless pursuit by Frankenstein of his creature, this is all very, very Gothic. But having said that, it is far more pensive, it is far more ideological, it's far more philosophical than most Gothic novels are. It's not driven by plot, it's driven more by ideas. - Yeah, I think that's definitely true. It's driven more by ideas than by plots. And I think it's the blend of those three things that makes it so remarkable as a book. - Yeah. - That is clearly a romantic element to it. There is clearly this sort of supernatural haunted, you know, there's a lot of stuff in graveyards and all of that. - They always play that up in the movies. - Yeah, that draws, so the films often do draw on the Gothic element very heavily. But I think it's the, to me, the most enduring element is definitely the science, the more philosophical science fiction one. And that's why I think it lives on. Those Gothic books that you mentioned, The Mysteries of Adolfo, The Monk, nobody reads them now and I'm guessing the majority of our listeners have never really heard of them. - Yeah. - Frankenstein, if it were merely a Gothic novel would be forgotten. But I think it's the ideas and the science fiction element that have ensured it's kind of placed in the popular imagination. The idea of, you know, what are the moral costs of the pursuit of knowledge? What responsibility do we have to our creations? The idea of the creator who is undone by his own hubris and whatnot, all of that kind of stuff. I think that's why it lives on. - And the twisted progeny as well. And you could see that and anything from Edward, this is a hands to ex-macchina. But I do also think it's that. It's the science fiction element of it, but wedded to kind of the soulfulness, the tender soulfulness of the romantic. I love that. So my favorite passages in Frankenstein are the kind of reflections on the natural world. But then wedded to this dark, you know, shocking, creator, scientific element. And I think that's why you can also see its influence in books that I never let me go. Which is so thoughtful and emotive and sort of moving. - Yeah, melancholy. There's a melancholy to it, right? - Yeah, there's a huge melancholy to it, which I think is very romantic. But then you know, wedded to the fact that never let me go is about creatures kind of. - But they're searching for their creator too, aren't they? - Suffering as a result of their creators. Yeah, exactly. - So we should wrap up by talking very quickly about Mary Shelley. So Percy drowned in a boating accident, didn't he? In 1822 and that basically was, that was a trauma from which in many ways she never really recovered. She was devastated by that. - Yeah, she kept his ashes, she famously kept his calcified heart and she preserved that for the rest of her life and she never remarried. She had opportunities too, but she never did. And she spent a lot of her, the rest of her life kind of protecting his legacy and curating and editing his works. But she did leave her nearly panellists with only one surviving child, a guy called Percy Florence Shelley. She was a bit of an outcast when she returned to England in 1823 because of her unorthodox marriage, because of her infamous parents, all of this. And Percy's father, a baronet, refused to meet Mary personally and would only provide her with very small allowance hinged on the fact that she wouldn't write anything at all controversial or immodest. So she lived very carefully, she wrote very carefully, so as not to outrage him. And a lot of this was in part to protect her sons in heritans, which again, I think is admirable. Finally, when her son Percy Florence Shelley inherited Percy Shelley's baronet in 1844 or Percy Shelley's father's baronet in 1844, her financial woes were slightly eased. But she suffered from illness and depression all of her life and then she died in 1851. At the age of 53, probably people now think from a brain tumor. So, - Pretty tragic end to her life. - Yeah, sad story. But she did write for the rest of her life independently. But never anything to match this extraordinary work that she produced, you know, I mean, as we've said, just an extraordinary thing for a teenage girl, basically, to have written under the weird pressure of these extremely well-known writers sort of looking at her, expectingly and saying, well, come on, where's your ghost story? And then she comes out with this, extraordinary. All right, so how did she do? I mean, this is there, I mean, who cares what Byron and Shelley thought? What everyone wants to know is what Tabby and I think. So, Tabby, we always mark these things out of, appropriate, with an appropriate index. You have chosen to mark this out of, so it's murderous, reanimated corpses out of 10. How many murderous, reanimated corpses out of 10? Do you give Mary Shelley's master work? I'm so chuffed with that scale that I've chosen. Anyway, I am gonna give it shockingly a seven because the. Harsh. I know it is a bit harsh. Yeah. But I'm kind of, I'm fused with remorse, like Victor Frankenstein and his creature. But the relentless self-flatulation of just all of the characters from Victor to the creature to Victor's family, it got a little bit exhausting after a while. I know that was very of its time, but nevertheless, I did find it a bit exhausting. The endless chasing theme, I found a little bit boring. The fact that none of the characters are massively fleshed out, they're kind of more ideals of people. They're all representations of different philosophical stances. But having said that, the fact that she makes you able to hate and sympathise with both Victor and his creature throughout the novel is an extraordinary achievement. And I love the nature passages. And just this sheer, like this idea, it's just mind blowing. Sometimes I would catch myself when I was reading it and just be staggered by the fact that she came up with this. Never mind being a woman at 18 years old. Just the fact of it. But still only seven out of 10. Yeah, all right. I don't know how I'm right. So I'm actually going to give it eight out of 10. Oh, believe me. So I have. So I'll tell you what, I think some people reading this for the first time may find bits of it to do drag a bit. I think the stuff with the cottages feels very 18th century. I like that bit. Perhaps a little bit too slow and and pensive to use your word. I find the chases and the murders. Yeah, they are a little bit repetitive. I think some of the prose is a little bit-- I'm not a massive fan of that overwrought capitalar romantic style. I think it was slightly more bare than some of the books at that time. Yeah, I mean, I guess by the standards of books of the late 18th century-- Yeah, it's less anguished. Yes, maybe. So I'm marking it mainly actually on the idea. The central idea, which I think is so foundational. I like all the stuff about Paradise Lost and Prometheus. And I think there's no question. Frankenstein is one of the core books of the Western canon. I think so much of our popular culture will be unthinkable without it. So although I think it is surprisingly unscary and unhorrifying as a book, I do think everybody should read it. Very good. And with that, we put the corpse to bed. We do put the corpse to bed. What corpses are we disinterring in the weeks to come, Taby? What's next week's corpse? Next week we will be doing the Northern Lights, so the Golden Compass in the US by Philip Paulman, their normal people by Sally Rooney and then East of Eden by John Steinbeck with lots more exciting corpse-y treats to follow after that. That is exciting. So on that bombshell, thank you everybody for listening. We'll see you next week. And thank you, Taby. Bye-bye. Bye.