France is a Toilet (with Tom Gilbey) | The History of Wine

[Music] Welcome back to Finn vs History, I'm here with the ratio goals. And Tom Gilbeats with us. Look at that. An actual expert. It was a diversity outreach program. Yes. Thought we'd want to cross the divide. Yeah. We wanted to make sure that we had a lot of different voices, diverse set of voices in this podcast, you know. Who was getting too stuffy? Yes it was. There were too many, privately educated white men on the show. And so we've got one who is so posh, they could become a sexual. I think that's as far as we'll go. Yeah, it's about as far as we'll push it. Tom, thank you so much for joining us. My pleasure I think. You're one of the most popular guests on Finn vs History. The first guest to do the double on the now the history. First guest to look comfortable in the suit. First guest to not attach you a pair of smart shoes and not just bring his trainers. Yes, you don't look like you're showing up to a court appearance for once. You look like your own. Maybe the judge. Maybe the judge. The judge of wine. The KZ. Tom, you're the wine expert. Yeah. We've been talking about wine. Yeah. Now how are you on wine history? Try me. Yeah. So we've done the ancient world. Yeah. We've done Dionysus or Giazdic Filth. Yeah. We charted its transformation through people, tearing goats apart, fucking each other on the forest. Yeah. To Christians having a sip with a biscuit. Which is where it's all about. We have the Christians and their biscuits, the bank. Do you think? A lot of it we do. Yeah. The good stuff. How come? So where are we going to start? Well, to fill us in. I mean, we're going to just go over the early modern period. But please. Any information. Please stop us. Please stop us. Stop us. Stop us. We're all legit, Tom. Should we go take us back to the old school? Put the loan in my arm's torn, put it in the oven. Shut the clock up my arm. Tell me about wine, would you? I'll put you in Christopher Columbus' boat. And we'll go across the plunge. Yes, please. Yeah, please do. Okay, so it all really, I think, an interesting point is when the Spanish went over and had a little cracker at the Caribbean. You can call it that. And so let's have a crack. Let's have a whip. Yeah. And so they started planting fines in the Caribbean, which is a positively shit place to plant vines. Yes. Because they needed wine. These are tonic wine vines. Yeah, tonic wine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Took a while. Yeah, get the end. But it just takes a wall. Sure, sorry, of course. So for the mask, for the Catholic mask, they needed wine. Yes. And they couldn't, or they couldn't import enough Spanish wine. So they plant their own in the Caribbean. Because his wine now is wine surviving the that journey in this day and age. No, no, it's going off. It's going off. And wine, it was all off, even before it did the journey. A lot of it then. Right. Because it's Spanish wine? But is that an opinion of Spanish wine? Is it all off? So the buck fast is what it, what the early wines were sort of fortified wine. Yeah, that was a very special wine for the Scots. Not Spanish. Yeah, that's Scottish. Yeah, that's my national tradition. It was made in Devin by monks. Is it? But drunk by Scots. Monks still make buck fast. And the drinks are like abbies and monks, the clergys, they kind of build. Yes. Yeah. And the Scottish drink a lot of it. Right. That makes a lot of sense to be fair. So the Spanish attempt to take wine over, a corks around this, what does a wine bottle look like in 1492? Really wonky. Yeah. Really wonky and corks aren't not around. So what are they using? So they're using glass, but like all sorts of bits of glass. It's all generally. And what's going in the top? All sorts of things. So it's sort of like a rum bottle. It's kind of whatever you've got in your house. Yeah, you see your images of really wonky little bottles. Yeah. So they plant what a vines in the Caribbean. Right. And then they go up to South America. OK. And they suddenly find that actually the vines can grow in South America. Sure. So their first bit of actually doing a decent wine is the late 16th century in Mexico. So the decent wine finds new world. That's interesting. No, no, it's not decent. Yeah, it's really. OK, but the beginning of what would end up being decent wine is happening here. Yes. These kind of early vineyards. But what's happening before? Because obviously we talked about the ancient history of wine. You got George and wine. You got Roman Greek wine. Is this-- Are these vineyards or are these just like a massive barrel that you're sitting on grapes? These are vineyards. But all the wines drunk locally. Because there's no transportation around there. Right. OK. So really getting-- So it doesn't need to last long. Sure. It's made drunk drunk. Fine. Yeah. OK, so it's in Mexico. And it's-- Pump and dump. It's the beginning of the-- And also-- So about the wine bottle, correct me if I'm wrong. This is a bit of a fact that I like to bring out. I think it's interesting. I hope it's true. For me, I think it's interesting. Is the modern wine bottle that size because it's the-- How far a glass blower can blow? It's like the depth that a wine blower can blow. No, it's how far up your ass is to email the mail. G-sport is there. A glass blower. How much he likes up his ass before-- Yeah, that'll do. That bit. Just that bit. I think most of that is true. But the bit that's really true is the-- Is the blowing. Right. It's the glass blowing. So go on and tell us what's the why is it that-- So it's how far you can blow-- Blow glass. It was all done manually. So that's why it's like that. So then he runs out of the-- And that's the stem of the bottle. And then we work out with what's the punt like, and will it fit up anyone's butt? Yeah, I think that came later. And then it's ribbed for my pleasure. And that's a different story. They're rosés. They're nice. They're ribbed. Lovely stuff. Rose drinkers. It's a red Mexico. We've got these beginnings of plantations, the Cyclebertic climate. Yes. So is this kind of other Aztecs around? Is this around the site? Well, they're being kind of stamped out. We're getting rid of them to plant vines. Yes. And for religious conversion-- Conversion. And the missionaries. The missionaries. It's for missionaries. And wherever they go, they plant a vineyard. Right. And they plant it with generally anything that they can ferment into an alcoholic drink. So not just grapes. So not just grapes. It is grapes. But all sorts of-- nothing like that we'd know grapes as today. All sorts of weird and wonderful stuff. Right. But it is. We'll get to it later. It's European grape varieties that are planting there. Because what Mexico doesn't have any of its own grape varieties? No, it did have its own grape varieties. But they knew about the European Spanish grape varieties that they planted there. So they wanted to replicate what they had at home. And these are still shit wines. They-- You would think they're shit wines? Yeah, fine. But they're basically moving up through the Americas, planting European grape varieties. At these different-- And you're moving up or down as different climates. So there's-- Yes. So the Caribbean is a way too warm to be making anything decent. But as we hit Mexico, we're beginning to get a climate that can make-- In fact, I do have a Mexican wine that-- Well, it's been seven minutes. I reckon we should crack it. Yeah, all right. Let's pop it over. All right. We're at Mexico. Let's have a-- Do you want to open it now for it? You do the honors. Shall I do that? I'm boxing. This is posh, I'm boxing. Yes. So it's quite difficult to find Mexican wine. I know. And you came out. Yeah, I've not really heard of-- Because it's generally shit. Right. I can't. I managed to find one. So I'm going to pull you a glass of petite syrup by the biggest wine producer in Mexico. OK. I haven't tried it yet. So is this-- Because seeing as you all start in this modern history of wine in Mexico almost, does it have a long tradition? And then does this wine producer have a long history? This wine producer is early 20th century. Right. So not really. But Mexico does. Yeah. But from Mexico, they went to Peru, to Chile, to Argentina. So all of these areas, and particularly Argentina, are now making amazing wine. But what's interesting is that it feels like the snobbery is around New World wine. Certainly, there was for a beer. But from the way you're discussing it, it seems like new worlds are producing it, kind of modern wines, as long as old worlds. I'd class Mexico's new world. Yeah, I'm saying-- I'm saying like the-- As soon as we started the history of Mexico, it's interesting that new world wines have been around that long. Yeah. They have. So here we go. This is a French grape variety, finally. I've put it syrup. And these guys were actually founded by an Italian family. Beautiful. Thank you so much. Look at this. The poll cast is nice. It's fantastic. It's a bit of clasp, isn't it? Well, it smells like-- I'm getting wine immediately. Oh, yeah. That's wine. That's wine. I can verify that's wine. So Piteer's series is a really dark, spicy grape. So sorry, I'm getting a fat man asleep on a chair, drinking incredibly sugary coke. Yeah, I'm getting an half-a-moon man. I'm hearing like-- [HUMMING] Marriachy bands, the day of the day-- I get an invasion on the southern border. Wetback. Is it a wetback? It smells like a wetback. Very hard workers, I can already tell, made this wine. It's one of the most obese countries in the world. Yes, I can believe that. It's just because this is pure canes, isn't it? Yeah, it's a bit of a mix of yarritos. It's really pure sugar. That's an absolutely lovely wine. This episode of Finvers' History is sponsored by Surfshark, the premier provider of VPNs. What? What VPNs? I don't. But I tell you what, I do have problems when I want to watch horrible disgusting filthy videos. Yeah, why? Why? Because I'm terrified that my wife and everyone in the world will see what I'm doing. You're in luck. Because Surfshark provides brilliant, easy to use VPNs. That means that you can basically have your location, your IP location from anywhere in the world, right? I could run away from my wife and children to Mexico, Bahamas, and I could watch horrible stuff. Or you can just change your IP. So it thinks you're in the Bahamas and you can watch it at home. So I still have to stay at home. Yeah, okay. Well, I use it at VPN. Well, I use the VPN sometimes when I want to watch videos. in a foreign country. Well that's great. The worst thing about traveling is foreign TV and foreign people and the list goes on and being abroad and the food and the weather. 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I'd expect nothing less from so juicy. Wow, that's really rich. Yeah. That's what I've got. Yeah, it's full bodied like a big fat Mexican. Yeah, full of bodied. It's got fat fatty. This has got fat. Yeah, I do think that the language around wine needs to be chained. So I'd say this is a smoking hot fat fatty to Mexican. I mean, I think it's very flexible to language around wine. If you say it's con- It is con- I mean, you could probably say whatever you want. I quite like tasting it. I think if you've got red trousers on, you can basically say this is a fat fatty Mexican of a glass of wine. Fat fatty stout. Yeah. Short necked. Yeah, no nonsense. Hoofsuck up fields. Yep. A tall man up top. Sam Allenized team. Yeah, exactly. It's a Sam Allenized Red wine. I've got one word answers from this guy. This is the pint of red wine that Sam Allenized drank. No, I've long got fired by the. I see. It's cancun. Bonnie Blues there. Smashing through fresh freshers. I can taste. She's hitting freshers for sick. I can taste the stale come around the cheap motels of cancun. Yep. So tell it. So Mexican wine starts. What's the left to tell? Is it the first wine in the Americas then Mexican wine? Really, yes. Wow. And here we are just south of California. Yep. But we don't see it much over here because. So are we in Baya California? We're exactly there. We're in Baya Crabori. There's cherry. There's cherry. Cherry and a little. So you're being serious now, right? Yeah, I'm so good. Bonnie Blues popping cherries as well. I'm getting in cancun. And really nice creamy texture. It's really juicy. Yeah, it is. So it's warm so you don't have too much tanning. You know that dry feeling you get around your mouth. And it's like thick and soyly. Is that what tanning is? Yeah. When you have a tea bag with no milk too long, it's. Yes. But this makes you want to do other things. And what's these tram lines? That's meant to mean good wines, right? You know shit. No, that's because my dad. Those are cum gutters. That's a boy. My dad is. This is basically. My dad's very sort of insecure about his class and the way that he's trying to make himself seem sophisticated. He's channels him autism into wine autism, right? But he doesn't have any sense of smell and has really weak taste buds. He doesn't really know at all what he's talking about. So he's been drinking whiskey for the last 50 years out of wine glasses. Yeah, this packs a lot. And he's just learned all the things he should but has no real tasting ability. But I think most people. And you're very good on this. You know, a £20 bottle of wine. Really, if you're getting beyond that, you're just paying for the label, right? Yeah. How much should we exclude. We're excluding people with wine. That's what we should be doing. It's why I like the drink. It's it's. It's not for everyone. It's really. It's just about, "I'm better than you." You don't understand this. It's all the same. But this hasn't really come in yet. We'll get to why this comes in. You'll realize how much you think that costs. In pesos or in. In the day's work. In an alcohol challenge. Three naps, which is a day and a half's work. It tastes strong. Yeah. So that's your tram lines. That's the amount of alcohol or sugar in the glass. So if it's quite rich in what they call glycerol, then you get big tram lines. And that's good. Well, if you like a nice punchy wine, that's good. That means white people are wine. If you like a sort of domestic abuse wine. We'll get to Australia in it shortly. But so the Spanish line. I would say, how much are you saying this is worth? I'd say it's between 20 and 30 pounds. I was thinking 15, but gone. You're on the money. It's 14 quid. Wow. It's good value. Very good. Mexican wine. Mexican. So the Spanish plant, vineyards, and quite quickly, when would you say it gets good? This Mexican wine. It's roughly when all wine gets good, which is when we invent corks and proper bottles and proper storage and proper fermenting and growing. Because we were chatting about in the ancient world, obviously, there. It's probably quite low ABV back then. Yes. What kind of percentage of wine are they drinking? Sort of under 10, really, yeah. So it's more like a special 13 half. But also with a lot of wine, imagine it was similar with the way that medieval kids would drink beer. Yeah. School. It's safe for the water. It's safe for the water, right? That's exactly right. They can't find, and it's part of their diet. Yeah. So they're all drinking. Yeah. Because you have to be such a fun time. I reckon there's quite a lot where we actually studied that period. It actually seemed pretty fucking tough. What? The Aztecs? Yeah, no. I wouldn't like to be around then. So it moves from Mexico and around the new world around South America. Yeah. Before it goes up the west coast to Baja to California in real. And when does it go up to. When does it cross the border into California as we know it? I think it's about 17th century. The massive thing happens in the 19th century, which is for locksmith, which is a disease that killed all of the vines. Yeah. We exported it over to America, and it's this little bug that eats the roots of European vines. So as what smallpox did to the Aztecs? Yes. We did it again to our wine. The bigger tragedy is that what happened to. In entire people, millions wiped out, happened to French vineyards. Which is the other part of the happiness. And their vineyards. So all European vines throughout the world. It's from the bathwater out with a baby. Yeah. All the European vines throughout the world were decimated. Really? In what, like a summer? In a period of years, sort of 1860, fun, I think it was. Right. I'm just going to get geeky here. European vines are called Vittis vinifera. Right. American vines. Yeah. That freshers week, I don't have a bad case of Vittis vin. It's like a black. And American vines are called Vittis lambrosca. So basically everything that was there before the Spanish went over to America was Vittis lambrosca. Right. Sitting happily in America, resistant to forloxera having a nice time, but making shit wine. Sure. Right. Every vine now, with like tiny exceptions in places like Peru, are a Vittis vinifera vine grafted onto the roots of a Vittis lambrosca vine. So if you can get your mind around that. Yeah. Why do they do that to stop this? Yeah, because the little mites can't eat the roots of the American roots. And they're not going to jump over it because they can't do that. They can't eat it on the walls. So you know, if you go through a vineyard now, you'll see every vine has a little kink at the bottom at as where the grafting has happened. So it's throughout the whole of Europe, you'll see that. The Americas have better roots or like the bottom bit. They're good on roots. And then the actual grape thing. So you want it done the top. Yeah. So I asked my dad to ask some questions for you and one of them was, do you think, what was this called filo- Filoxera. What do you think it was more damaging to the French than it apparently only was or filoxera? I think it's probably filoxera. Really? I mean, it really did fucking properly good. Because it was their big wine exporters. That's the whole economy. I mean, the economy had it. I reckon he just talked to himself when he's having dinner. And then we went to, because that was listening. They went to Algerian, started planting vines down there. Right. And there's a whole bit of history there about Algeria and wine production. But filoxera fux all European wines pretty much. Yes. So it fux. America. And then Europe. This is the dark ages for wine basically. Yeah, this is really, really bad. So when do corks and proper bottles come in? Corks and proper bottles, I think in the early 20th century. But really. Well, is it not when past, when past, so I think not to tell me. You tell me, I think that what happens is that Napoleon III, Emperor France, he's a big wineau. So he's the one that starts the classification of the Bordeaux wines which we'll get to. But all French wines. Yeah. He's the one that gets past. who immense pasturation onto work out how to make wine better, I think. So I think it's probably in the 1850s. - You know, I think to do commission housemen to rebuild Paris and to what we know it today. - A toilet. (laughing) - Could you make this toilet, man? - Yeah, let's make this a giant latrine. - Have you ever had prison wine? Toilet moved to my prison wine the last episode? - I have actually had a prison wine, yeah. I did a blind tasting the other day of a load of wines and one of them was made by a convict. - In a toilet? - In a toilet. Wow, yeah. - And could you test, could you taste which one it was? - I found out if I could. - Yeah. - If you were in prison, do you think that your love of wine would drive you to make toilet wine? - You do very well. - I mean, you would be. - I think, and depending on what you would be in it, you would be in high demand in prison. (laughing) - Not really if you're wine tasting skills. (laughing) - Yeah, you'd do very well in prison, or badly. (laughing) - So sorry, so let's talk, let's move to France. So Spain has planted vines in America. - Yeah. - And so in the kind of 1600, 1700s, am I right in thinking this is where France starts to give wine the sort of elitism that maybe it's still tainted with today? - I think before then, I think it's sort of the 12th century. - Okay, 100 years war sort of time. - Exactly, when Eleanor of Aquitaine marries, some kind, doesn't matter. - Yeah, we skip through it. - And we have Bordeaux, the English get Bordeaux. - Yes, I don't know what a team she marries an English king, or like she marries an English king, we just get a lot better. - Yeah, and then we can do, that's what I think she should be doing. - Charlie does exactly, that's like a brilliant time to be looking at. - Do your job. - So, do your job. - So, do your job. - Three people go and I'm, what's that? - What's the name, what's the name? - Eleanor of Aquitaine. - And the name of Aquitaine. - We're saying it into your earphones. - Henry. - Henry, the second. - Henry. - Henry the second, yeah. - Is it? - Which is plain, in the medieval period England, the constantly warring France, and we're, at various times, bits of France are owned by the English. - Yes. - Particularly Bordeaux. - Yeah. - So we start, and because there's no transportation there, there's no railways as nothing else, but Bordeaux is perfectly located to ship a load over to England in barrels. And we would use a port. - It's a got a seaside, it can't be. - Yeah, it's got amazing ports. - Right, right. - And so we would ship over in barrels, because you know any bottles, you would shove the barrels in a boat over we come. So we basically, that's the beginning of English wine. - Got knocked up on Bordeaux red wine. - And so why does that give, how does the stuff in us come into? - Because there's any aristocrats within this? - There's only people who can afford it, the posh dudes here. - Okay, so in the posh cunts in the medieval period of drinking clara, from English-owned Bordeaux, in this 12th century. - It's marvelous. - And then moving onwards. So when does, you know, when does France start to almost give itself the title of like the gatekeeper of wine? - The gatekeeper of wine. - The gate, the gate. - So, you know, they see themselves as like the home of wine. - Where do they become the fruja station earth? When does it become. - Why do I hate them so much? Why do they smell? - We give them, we give them, we're the biggest consumers of wine, the britts of the biggest consumers. - How long for the whole bit? - Until recently, really. You know, we've had a, we've got a good track record of imposing a lot of wine. - Sure. - And generally, it's Bordeaux. - Okay. - And drunk by our aristocratic society, and we just chip it over and drink it. So, we've given France the title of greatest wine country in the world. - Because we can't really produce good wine, but we drink so much of it that we. - So we just say that we essentially made France a wine-making factory for us to enjoy. - Yes. - And we're really happy with that relationship. - Yeah, that's exactly what I see. - That's how I see France is our factory for how we get pissed. - Yes. - But it's also like our desk, we'll go skiing there and we'll go to the beach there. - Yes. - So we should really own it. - Yes, totally. - I think we're all agreed. This is why we need to get diverse voices on. - Yes. - Because we would learn about. - We would learn about. - It's so nice to have somebody who has different opinions than we can maybe come to sort of consensus. - Yeah. - That we should own France. - The diverse opinion that we should own from. - I do think there's something interesting about having a single issue party. Invade France party. - Yeah. - That's just one issue. Let's re-ignite those wards, you know. - Yeah, I think so. - So it'll come left field, no one will expect that. - I think looking. Ukraine, Russia, Israel, Guards are all that. - I tell you what. - Let's get into France. - I'm not ready for it. - They're never ready for it. And that's a great thing about invading France. Is that they're always pissed, asleep, striking. - I think that's an easy border to invade. They will not be repaired. - It's like France is a fucking tapping. D-Day, Mark II, they're done. They're absolutely done. They would not expect it. And even if they didn't expect it, they wouldn't turn up. Let's invade France and make everywhere a wine factory. - So the climate's super important to making good wine. So France, I guess part of the reason why it is because it has to make the perfect climate to make great wine. - Yeah, the air smells so bad. - The imbues the grapes with a sense of the wine. - I think a lot of what drives a lot of French cuisine and culture is they have massive noses. And I think it means that they also have a lot of smells. And they have a real fertilisation with bad smells. I think the reason why French cheese is so good is because a Frenchman would be brought to cheese and go, "Nud stinky enough." Send it back to "Nud stinky." You'll have a red wine. - Nud stinky enough. Everything is about huffing it with a big French nose. - Yeah. Take it, come back with it. - Maybe they can't smell like your dad. And so in order to register anything, they need something that fucking honk. - Nud stinky enough. - Yeah, exactly. - Nud stinky enough. - Take this woman back. She doesn't smell bad enough. - Nud stinky enough. - She hasn't got rice in her armpits. I don't want to marry her. - I mean, we do this. - So when does the French kind of start to, you know, is it like Louis, whoever the fuck, I mean, like at what point does Versailles start into codifying, ritualizing wine amongst the society? - Kind of what England would crick it, right? - Yeah, I guess that's what we do with sport, but they do it with wine. - Yeah. - It's like these are the rules only a couple of people actually know about it if you don't. - Yeah, when does that all start? - So really, before transportation, like railway is everything, all the wines being drunk locally. So the guys in the Loire would drink the Loire wine, etc. - Mm-hmm. - We are pretty much alone in shipping stuff out for us, straight out of Bordeaux. - Yeah, amazing. - And then the Dutch come in and have a crack and think that this is, because they're quite good at trading as well. - Yeah. - So they think that this might be nice to add to their spices and herbs and all this stuff and start importing wines from Burgundy, from Alsace, from the Loire. - And this is what, 1600s? - Yeah, and then they have a little fight with us about Bordeaux. - Yeah, really? - Actually, I don't know, there's a physical fight, but there's a lot of sort of trade war. - Trade stuff going on. - And they back off a little bit from there and go, "Okay, you've had your mits in Bordeaux for long enough, keep it and we'll deal with the rest." - And then your family, you have a link to the English trade of wine. - Yes, yeah, right. - Yeah. - Can you tell us a little about that? - Yeah, so my family was one of the first families to buy, in fact, they were the first English family to buy a shadow in Bordeaux in 1875. - Right, that was nice. - And it's right, it's at the north of the, there's an area called the Medoc, which is a triangle. - Above Bordeaux, and the wine gets, like, it gets better and better and better until it gets shit. We bought the one where it's shit. - I think it's special on the Jelby for Comic Relief. - The point where it gets shit. - Don't they now just get shit? - For just three pounds a month. - Yeah, yeah. - What's wrong with that marathon? - It's only. - But they shipped in all this wine in barrel before we had railways and bottled it in what's now the Cannon Roundhouse. - That's amazing. - Yeah, it's crazy. - So the reason why it's like a barrel could be because of that. - Yeah. (laughing) - Just back on the climate thing though. - Yeah. - So climate's such an important thing. - Is that it? - It's like your shadow, Tom. - Yeah, that's it. That's not actually my shadow, because it's now some fuckers fucked it all up. - Yeah, so I don't have that. - It's really pink. - Of course it's pink. Of course, Gillespie's shadow is pink. - It's beautifully painted. It's like your shirts. - Yeah, it's beautiful, of course. - But the climate shifts and the reason why English wine is now coming onto the scene is because of climate change. - Now? - Yes. - Because the south of England is now the same climate as medieval France. - Totally, but we cannot make a good red wine. - Yet. - Yet. - But if we keep CO2 emissions high. - Yeah. - And the Ozo layer is an ozone layer. - It's getting a grretched down and strong into her face. - Long enough. (laughing) - So what were you saying? (laughing) - I forgot what I was talking about. - I forgot what I was talking about. - I was my kink. - If we do that, then eventually we'll be able to make red wine. - We suck it to Mexico. - Right. - And Hampshire and our best still wine, still white wine, comes from just outside Chelmsford. - Right. - Crazy. - SX. - SX wine. - Crazy. - So what I'm from is gonna, his reasoning one thing that they are now like a brand, what's it called? - In the way that Bordeaux, that is like the same brand. - I don't see, or something like that. - Yeah, something like that. - Yeah, so there's a dude down in the south of SX who decided that SX would be, he got a few together and decided that SX would be an appellation, a bit like Shet and Efty Pap. - So it's like a glass of SX. - Yeah, but what he forgot is that no one actually gives a fuck, whereas it's Shet and Efty Pap they do give a fuck. - Right. - I suppose when the French start, certain areas of France, certain vineyards, certain parts of certain vineyards, start becoming favored by popes and kings, etc. Which is a shadow enough to pap is a. People exactly shot of the pap is the first the first appellation control a wine in in France Yeah, and this appellation control you must remember that our listeners are incredibly thick and fast Yes, yeah, I'll be smelly are they friends? Many of them will be French. Yeah, they listen to it just sort of like They're being fed liquid foods. Yeah, not not not not not not posh liquid food They drink in their box wine along this is our lunch. Yeah Because we have a certain class, but no they'll be drinking sort of grow through a pipe Yeah, okay anyway, and it's good for them. Yeah But so so France starts to kind of very quickly as opposed to other countries codify and It just becomes stuffy. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to get to I'm trying to try to take the thick listeners from You know this this orgy of like partying an XC that is the Dynison Col to when does it become this this sort of gate kept thing? Yeah, so when for locks are a hit that bug that we're saying about All the whole of France panics and things what the hell are we gonna do? It's like covid but for vines yeah, and so they go to Algeria and other North African countries we can still grow wine and start producing and Spain because for locks are hit Spain in France first and then go south and They're producing all of these they're being paid in Algeria to produce loads of wine because the French need it Because they're hooked and they can't produce themselves so and when they fix for locks are they work out that Putting one on top of the other yeah works They've still got they're beginning to grow again and Algeria for a shipping Algeria was the third biggest wine producing country in the world really yeah, they they produced a lot of wine right good stuff No, okay But they were shipping but big stuff, you know It had lots of alcohol lots of because it's warm climate So they were shipping it all back into France and the French are going on a second We don't need you anymore. We can do our own yeah But that's when they put in the Appalachian control assistant to make sure they're not getting shit Algeria and we're doing one Algerian shut-in-ft-pap we want shut-in-ft-pap the grapes are gonna be grown there Made in this way so that and this is around this is 1870s This is around the time the pulling the third right? This is around yeah, I think this is around time that passed during meant pasteurization the core Modern wine essentially is around the kind of late 19th century yeah, but the the appellation system really all happened in the 20 century sort of all right that because it just started there and moved Because 1855 is the classification. That's it the classification of that's bored out I think and that's because the polling the third was it was the they used to have world fairs. Okay. Yeah Crystal Palace and it was the first one right the great exhibition great exhibition all that kind of stuff. It's the which they still do they have Paralympic games Well, these fuckers can do that's kind of what it is But now they have it in like Abu Dhabi in Dubai. Oh, well, yeah, you're right They are exposed are the same thing. It's this huge carnival of soft power basically And so Paris was holding one and for this he goes right let's codify the wine. Let's make it rigid You know, I think it's in the palace of Versailles maybe in the century before this where it starts to become The idea of table wine versus proper wine totally so table wine is like off sour wine They give to the smelly the smelly or French people peasants. It's thinking yeah exactly Well, I mean the rich people are smelly because it was a sign of prestige Of course think can you be how much stink in your Ford to rub on yourself? Yeah, so the honkiest of honk French people are drinking very good wine and people are using a little bit of links again table wine. I think actually we're drinking the nice wine right I would really drink in the honk. So we are having the I love that absolutely Yeah, so the what you're talking about the 1855 classification is like a football league So it's like the five shadows that was that were the most expensive would be the Premier League Anyway, so it's it was a way of pricing all of the wine for the breads really because it's all marketing really all that stuff Of course it is yeah, and so so much of wine Originates here that that whole The prestige of it the kind of bullshit around it. Yeah, it's all basically from this 1855 idea like it's a marketing point For French wines. Yeah, but we are the best wine tasters of wine French don't know how to taste wine They know how to grow it. Can you spell on that? What what do you mean by that? Well, because we're the first No, we've covered that I think they don't work You can invade them tomorrow. They wouldn't expect it England's always been a great market for wine So if you think about if you think about all the influential wine journals at the moment they come from the Biggest markets of wine so it used to be all English wine critics now there's a few Americans and there's a few Chinese Chinese wine critics Yeah, yeah That's Well, they saying it's not enough rice in it. Do you want to try something else? Yeah, let's talk about champagne I thought you might have a champagne now. We've got nowhere somewhere else. I think we're at the chateau Right, you bought the fizz that's not a champagne. Oh right, wait, so this is where we're at This is a fine. Right, come on carry on Tom. Sorry Tom. I have a question. You know how like white wine should be in the fridge Yeah, what did they do before fridges? It was colder. They didn't need fridges. Oh They put it in caves. Yeah, they put it in so if you get if you go to the sellers underground sellers of any Any wine place underground it'll be 12 to 14 degrees which is actually the right temperature to be serving Any any white wine and keeping it and keeping it right And when does white wine because this is all you know what we're talking about really red wine is the is the thing Yeah, right red wine is wine if they would understand it What is healthy for them? Yeah, it's got tanning. It's got Fienals all these good things. Yeah, it's five a day And when does white wine become a thing? Pass right should we do this? Suffrage that's I imagine they're on white wine white wine. They're running a front of horses Yeah, so this is not a champagne. This is made in the abbey in limous which is arguably where sparkling wine was first ever produced Here we go. Okay. Here we fucking go They could only make sparkling wine in champagne because they couldn't get the grapes ripe enough to make a still wine right Okay, which is why we in England make mostly sparkling wine because I can't quite do still one yet But we you know that okay But what I'm very excited about is with climate change Surely France will become a desert soon and they'll fuck all their wines up. They better not come over here Stop the top stop the sleep uncle stop the He's woken up for a second stop the toilet boats. Stop the portaloo. It's coming over here The great stink the great stink or or or France as I call it Brilliant Crawling up the channel channel Thank you. Yes, so So talk talk about where when does champagne now this is there's a myth around this guy don't pair in your Cheers and thank for this Well, I love the idea This will work so talk about a don't pair in your name that the sort of the myth around champagne because as you say It's sort of it's in retrospect that it's it's imbued with this sense of class right? Yes, so everybody thinks that Sparkling wine is made in champagne in definitely invented in champagne It's all a mistake really because Sparkling wine's figured out because someone left a little bit of sugar in a wine and Stocked it and the fermentation happens. It's like a penicillin, but yeah, yeah, but it was either made by a brick to call Christopher Peret I think it is this is brilliant or we know No, no, Sparkling wine actually the the person who tried to make sparkling wine properly is I think he's either a brick Or Christopher Peret or it's the monks down in the um Centella rabbi in limo French you got fuck all that's just feel like we don't get enough merit. We don't get enough credit Why do if you're in late? Next thing you'll tell us is a pretty invented striking French or nothing so yeah, we either invented it or the monks in In the Centella rabbi in limo Yeah, well drink to that and this is a bottle fermented sparkling wine So what they do is start with a still wine put a little bit of sugar in it and some yeast And then the yeast eats the sugar gives us the carbon dioxide jobs are good brilliant And so don Perignon is now that that's seen as now that like again It's been marketed as the highest class. It's Moe, isn't it? Yeah, and so he was a monk and he's credited with accidentally discovering Champagne but that that's bollocks, isn't it? Yeah, but then the the discovery of champagne wasn't the discovery of what we see There which is a clear sparkling sparkly wine. I'm getting a bit of a scous accent. Yeah No Gerard in a post-match insides and getting like what's your favorite cheese? You get melted melted cheese. Yeah, like you know, I mean that's the noise I'm getting Yeah, it hits you back to the front, isn't it the back of the throat's the course Is that right? Is that because you like it? It's lovely. No, it's new money. He felt I think Is that so delicious? Thank you. Just Galsblow because one of the lottery got a big TV. That's what I tell you. Yeah And so it's sure that it is sure that it is sure that it's really and and the best place to get Good value sparkling wine is in France and all these pockets that aren't champagne Because it's yeah, it doesn't have the branding and sociator Champagne's just got the most fantastic branding. So champagne's where Sparkling wine became really good. It became the clear They worked out how to get the yeast out which is called Discoaching. Yeah, and gives us a clear fizzy It's called discoaching. That's what my wife needs She needs to be discoached leave my wife, Joe, that was a slight lag on that was I've never seen. My wife. I'll tune back into the second. Now she needs to be thoroughly discouraged, run like a flannel to get all the yeast bubbles out. But champagne as a region is just north of Paris. Yes. And so this is where they accident, is that where the sparkling wine starts? Where they master sparking. It starts in limousine. You start in the south. So right down in the south. And then Paris is a toilet. And then you're reinal. And then don't pay in your take system. Don't pay in your take to to champagne and starts doing it in the app. And he's a monk. And he does it in the app. Yeah, he does it in the app. And so how is it just marketing? Is it all Moais marketing that's meant that don't pay on his now? How much does a bottle of donpone on go for like 170 quid? That crazy. That's a load of bollocks, right? It's all bottom. It's actually really good. No, sure, it's really good. But it's not worth it. It's equally as good things for much cheaper. Right? This is so good, isn't it? It's delicious. It's delicious. How much? The day's work in the app. 35? Yeah, it's 14 quid. 14 quid. So champagne's just become this incredible like nowhere else in the world marketing machine. Yeah. And it's now controlled by LVMH. Which I never, they're the big ones. Is that like Diagia? Is that similar? Yeah, Louis Vuitton Moais Hennessy. Aaron Company that own all the brands. Is it? Yeah, it's one of the rich guys in the world. So they do two thirds of the whole of the volume of champagne. Right. And champagne produces 300 million bottles a year. Yeah. We, at the English produce like 12, 12 million. He's worth 139 billion dollars. He's got a couple of quids. Bernard Arnoh. I think it was the rich man in the world for a little bit. Yes. Wow. Yeah. He loves champagne. He's not five kids. He's going to be like a real life succession when he dies. He's not spent any of that money on eyebrow trimming. It's a sign of a sign of wealth. Yeah, of course it is. Yeah. He's got license eyebrows. Yeah. Want to know the real story of how Oasis made Britain mad for it? How friends turned us on to coffee culture and super-layered hair. The secrets of Navanna, train spotting, gay hookups, Diana's revenge dress and what it was really like to be a spice girl. Flunged back into the decade when the world fell for cool Britannia, Bumster jeans and lemon hooch. With torque 90s to me. Listen now wherever you get your podcast and if you use Spotify, you can watch the whole show too. That's torque 90s to me out every Monday. Hello, it's Andrew Harrison here. Attacks on the American democratic system, a paramilitary force snatching people off the streets, moves to politicise the American justice system and a president indulging in unprecedented corruption. Do you ever think the United States might need a total reboot after Trump has gone? That's what we're looking at in a special three-part series from the bunker, your daily podcast of News Without the Nonsense. In Fables of the Reconstruction, how to fix the USA? I'll be talking to experts and friends of the bunker to look at if, why and how the American system could use a total rethink. Search the bunker on your favourite podcast app. So Don Perignon is all marketing and then all to do with Christianity. Go on. So it's all being done in munked by munks in monasteries. So they're the ones who are making the wine for sacrament. But basically they completely see it as vital to their diet. Yeah. Whether it's red, fizzy, white or whatever. They need alcohol. They say for the water. They're just, yeah. So wherever they go, they make, they make wine. So you think the link between wine and Christianity is completely intertwined? Because I guess if Christianity hadn't made wine slightly less kind of like women orgies in the forest eating goats. More formalised, more elitist, more focused. Exactly. It was always a fringe mad thing. Yeah, because when they were doing it, it was buckfast under a bridge. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's now becoming more formalised, more holy, more sacred. It's what wine can we pair with this burning tire. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let's return to the Americas because around the 20th century as you say, wine starts to get good in a way that we'd appreciate it. Yeah. And in America, in 1920, we're going to do a whole series on prohibition. I find it fascinating. But the Volster Act, the 18th amendment, they destroy the wine, the burgeoning wine culture that has happened in America. So as you say, it starts in Mexico, it starts to spread up to California. I think that it's not good at this point, but it's definitely the most, it's the best climate in America for growing wine, it's kind of more than wine. Yeah. And then I think something like in 19, over the course of prohibition, which is 20 to 33, the vineyards in America go from maybe the 700 vineyards, it goes to less than a hundred in the space of 13 years. Yeah. Because the amendment allows for sacrament wine, you can still produce wine for churches, and you can brew wine for home use. Yes. But you can't just do it. Do you clean your toilet out? Yes. If you were doing like a French themed night. So it destroys the California wine industry. Yeah. And what's also fascinating is that, you know, if you've listened to this podcast, "Locks and the Beginning," you'll know that obviously we talked about Cromwell and the whole East Coast of the New World, of America in the 17th century, as being very Protestant and very pure. Prohibition is essentially, it's the meeting point, it's the conflict between that Protestant, Puritan legacy, and all these Italians and Spaniards, and Greeks and Germans that all come in from the 1850s on. Try to turn America into a big party. Try to turn it into a big toilet. So the Germans spy an opportunity, so 1848 is huge, you're a flux in Europe, you're a revolution. The Germans will flee and they see that the climate in the Midwest of America would be great for Pilsner, so they all start making Pilsner. And that's a formal lag, or is it lag? Well, lag is German for cave. But yeah, it's for cave. Because lagering is when you store beers and cool caves, and it's like the big, big sort of cold beer. So Pilsner, yes, Americans don't have the right, they don't have lag at this point, so the Germans introduce lag at America. And then the Italians bring their sleepy wine culture with them to the America. And obviously the Jews come in and they've got a massive Abrahamic tradition of wine and whining. Oh, it sucks. So they bring all that stuff there. And so actually, a lot of the prohibition is wrapped up in an anti-immigrant sentiment. It's the puritanical elements in the East. We were first, we just stopped doing that. That's not naughty. Don't drink wine. And so it's wrapped up in anti-immigrant. Because it was our most boring cunts we sent out there. Yeah. And America is founded by boring cunts, and then it's made almost boring. Almost boring. Those are already boring. Yeah, they might be boring cunts for their art boring cunts. They were people who left here because it was too much fun at the most boring time. It's everything. But meanwhile, are all the guys on the west coast just getting host and having a really great time? All the west coast because it's the. Is there all the Spanish who have gone there? Yeah, they come up through Mexico and then it's slowly pushed further, further west. Yeah, there's all the American Mexican war and all that expansion. But by the 1920, that's kind of that started. That's set as it were. It's also massively wrapped up in women's rights. In that women at this point don't have any rights at all. And this is when wine comes in, right? Yes, the white wine starts. The white wine thing. The white women wine thing starts right here. No, because in 1920s America, if you're a woman, you have no legal rights. And your husband is drunk a lot of the time to get through the industrial hellhole that is his life. So domestic abuse, if a husband hits his wife, he might as well legally have hit his fridge. It doesn't mean anything in the law. Sure. The law are like, well, who cares? Yeah, it is fridge. You can do what you want. So women form the bulk of the temperance movement, which is the thing driving prohibition. So prohibition is wives stopping the boys from having fun. It's women saying stop drinking. So we built up a lot of information and I like how you can don't stop. It is why I stopped in the boys' home front. Right. So in 1920, like a bunch of states have already been doing it, but it becomes a federal thing. And it has the opposite effect on booze and that booze just fucking goes through the roof. Black market, black market, Speake Z's, the jazz boom, organized crime. All this stuff comes more fun. Is that why it's more dangerous? It's more of a culture has to. But the whole, you know, the whole American story is of like economic entrepreneurship. Right. So then people just go, well, people want this. So let's just keep it up. But anyway, but it's all just. It's all, it's all whiskey and gin and moonshine. So wine essentially is destroyed in America. Having been, you know, burgeoning and doing quite well. So 33, they realize, this is actually all fucked. We should probably let people drink because it hit the thumbs to power and they go, we need a drink. I want to drink. I want to drink. If we ever get this guy, he's entering the world, Finn's checking in on Hitler from above. He's the greatest man of the greatest man in several lives. So 33 prohibition ends, Hitler comes to power, that can't be a coincidence. Right. People are going, fucking hell. I want to see what this guy, I want to have a drink with this guy. Yeah. What I like about it, look, is you could have a beer with him. Yeah. That's what I like about it. You can't say the same of Lenin or Stalin or Mao. You can have a beer with him. No one's saying, you're like, I like about Mao. I can have a Chinese rice wine with him and have a pint of rice wine and really get into the stats about agricultural policy. Cause my of death. So, provoking. Prohibition kills the wine industry. And then in 33, it's whatever renaged or what? Re-naged. And wine starts to, having me decimated it starts to be built back again. And we need to get to, you know, probably the like, the defining moment of this story, that there's a lovely little bow tie that ties up this story, which is American wine having been decimated, starts to get so good. What would you say, Tom, by the 60s? California wine is good again? Really, really good. Really, really good. And so, why do you know anything about that, that sort of re-emergence of California wine after prohibition? Well, there's a lot of immigration, there's a lot of Italian immigration into California. So, there's a lot of European influence going into bringing all sorts of vines there. And this is the northern California, that's the wine grain country. No, really centered around that. Yeah. And so, we get to this point in 1976, oh yes. Called the Judgment of Paris. Yeah. Do you want to tell us about this? So, this is a tasting organized by a great man, who's no longer with us sadly, Steven Spurrier, who organized a tasting of the greatest wines of America versus the greatest wines of France. Like a world cup, a world cup of wine. So, it feels like it's a British wine merchant. It feels like the Brit's Roland wine is it's not to make it or even it's more to critique it and drink it. We're almost the great gatekeepers of wine. Yeah, we're just the critics, we're the critical culture. We're not doing it, we're just saying they're not very good, that's good. And getting pissed on it. Honestly, I joke, but and say, like the French don't know how to taste wine, we are much better tasteers and evaluators of wine. Especially they just make this stuff. I love that. They just make it. They just make it. They just make it. They just make it. They just make it. They just make it. They don't have a stand there. I love that. I've learned so much this episode. And it all completely fits in with my existing prejudice. Yeah, I love it. It's perfect. You can come in anytime Tom. So, Steven Spurrier, across the divide. It is great to get other opinions that perfectly match wine. So, Steven Spurrier organizes this big tasting of the greatest wines, America versus France. You've got like the most successful wines of all day. But the beauty about it is that and there's a group of semeliers judging the wines. Quite a few of which are French. Not knowing what double gay. Well, there's Melia. That's where the word comes on, I believe. And it's all blind. And this is the semelier. Not the semelier, they're me. He better not be smelly out there than me. And anyway, long story short, the US wins. They were testing this. The semeliers. The semeliers. They're all blind. They're blind tasting, marking each of these wines. So, it's French and California and Shardonnays and French and California capsobs. What's the fallout from this? Well, everyone assumes that France, with wine so central to its culture and its idea of itself on the world stage, would walk it. But now is it like a unanimous decision? It's the number of votes. So, the winners. For us wins, but sorry, US wins both. Yeah, exactly. Stagzly, Stagzly, the bigotone Montelena. Which are amazing wines. Yeah, I mean, like amazing. But I've heard that this was so devastating to the French mind that the press wouldn't report it. Yes, yes, yes. They were like, well, this is bothered. That's what's bothered. What happens if we print this? Like, who are we? Do we even smell? Who are we as a country? There are maybe stinky men out there. This is impossible. No one can smell as bad as us. And this kind of, is this what we say? And this is the new world can now race ahead. This is not just the mix where the greatest palettes in the world are saying, it's hungry being England 6'3" in football, right? Yeah, in the 50s. It's Australia beating England in the ashes. Yeah, yeah. Is this when the marketing bullshit of the French wine industry is all over? No, but how knows marketing is still maintained so strongly. Yes. We all know this, but it's still product of France. Great. I feel, it feels safe drinking French wine. In a way that I don't feel. I feel held. Mexican. I don't know what the fuck's going on there. I put the French and masters of marketing. They've nailed it. And champagne better than anywhere in the world. So, tell what, when does, to talk about the history of wine from 76 onwards, it's obviously to become much more open. People are palettes are much more welcoming. People are much more open to the idea of like, you know, fuck it, Bolivian wine. Why not? George and wine, still no, even though it's the oldest wine. The oldest wine. No, thank you. It sounds like petrol. Yeah. And I mean, the Soviet era basically bugged all wine production because it essentially tried to make fortified wine, I think, out of George and wine, which killed it. What is the deal? We were saying in the last episode with natural wine, and all that shit. It started in Georgia and it's all shit. Wait, so do you think that's a wine shit? I think, because we, many natural wine actually, and I think that, what do you think in the natural wine trend? I think it's a load of bollocks. And I think in 15 years, we'll stop it and look back and say, what the fuck are we doing? The amount of complexities in shit flavours. I think it's the only thing that has that much focus on making shit quality stuff. The history and tapestries of shit flavours that they make is extraordinary. I think the thing is, if you sat someone down, an expert on natural wine said, what is natural wine? They wouldn't really be able to answer. They would just say minimal intervention. But everything I taste in natural wine, it has a distinct flavour. I could tell you that. It's a bit like a like-a-like hand. Yeah, it tastes like dirt. It's got like a shittiness to it. Minimal intervention. Yeah. So it's like Syria. Yeah. Yeah. It's just devasted. But having minimal intervention intervention on wiping your arse means you've got to shittiness. Yeah. Let's bottle that. Well, they do. I actually got a very natural arsehole as in I haven't wiped it for two years. Yeah, it's like that perpetual stew you were talking about. It's just a build-up of flavour. And so now when I do a poo, it doesn't smell because I always smell. Because it could be anything at this point. Yeah. Can I just take you back before natural wine? Go on. In the 70s and 80s, the only wines that we could get in this country really were French. Because they didn't export any wines from California or the drank it all there. So we had all this French shit wine because they had the monopoly on what we'd be drinking. It's only really throughout the 90s that we begin to get New Zealand wine, Australian wine, California wine. And now why is that? Like in terms of economic? Because the Australian suddenly woke up and thought we can actually make a wine that tastes nice rather than the vampires. Yeah. And so they did that with. We don't need to drink this stuff to hit our wives. So why don't we make money off it while we drink Castle Name and pound sheathe us? Yes. As long as it's alcohol, it doesn't matter. I don't need this complex shit. No, it must be pissed. I want a clean taste to refresh me after I've tired myself out hitting my wife. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it made the French wines better because suddenly they're on a shelf alongside these white that were clean. So the main thing is the Australian wines and the New Zealand wines, they were clean in flavour. There was no armpit or arsehole or anything. Don't get like little notes of arsehole. Yeah, the French all had notes of arsehole and they were. To end on this wine as well. This is a French wine without notes of arsehole. I believe it when I see it. Can you hold this for a minute? Yeah. Have you seen the documentary Sour Grape? Oh, it's a brilliant film. It's fantastic. It's not seen Sour Grape. It's an amazing film about wine fraud in New York, I think. I mean, it shows the whole thing up. It does show the whole thing up. It's complete bullshit. Everything is time I've been saying about how essentially the myth of wine is it's a marketing success, really. Yes. And if you're paying more than £20 a bottle, it's because you have been tricked by a brand. Well, I didn't say that. You said that. Yes, but you endorsed that. My words, your sentiment. But it's basically about this rich Indonesian wine collector who basically becomes this big star in the wine world selling shit wines but pretending they're great. He has. Well, he pretends to have this palette that can just distinguish a margo from a lafitte or whatever, but he then bruises him in his kitchen out of different bottles of wine, sort of blends wine. And so when the FBI uncover his kitchen, it's just this mad, you know, garage full of like vials and buckets and stuff. And there's an amazing scene, which is the scene where him and some other wine nonces are running round New York in a cab, trying out different wines in bars. And they're trying bullshit counterfeit wine that he's made, but they don't know it. And they're like going on, they're going on with, you're like going along with it, they're going, oh yeah, this is this is whatever. And he's just made the wine himself in his kitchen. It's amazing. There is a lot of that in the wine trade. Yeah. So I've got your nice wine. So where's this from? So this is from Burgundy. Right. And the beautiful thing about the French is they won't tell you anything about it at all. Well, I just smell absolutely nothing. Literally nothing. I just agree, there's a definite hint of arsehole in there. You know, it doesn't tell you good. It doesn't say anywhere in the bag. It's stinky in there. It smells of arseholes. That's good though. I think you want a little bit of arsehole on your wine. So this is from Burgundy, which was, which is basically completely made by monks, monasteries and everything. And their great varieties, Pinot Noir. So they worked out that the best great variety. to plant there was peanut oil, which makes a beautiful red wine that's really smooth. And this is from year 2050. That's nice. So basically the French learnt to make good wine from the New World. I really like that. Yeah, that's very good. And they still make the best wine in the world. Burgundy, you think? Francie. That's nice. But it's because to wrap this up, because in many ways, my view of this has basically been like this is a conversation Horatio is having with his dad, where his dad's actually interested in him. That's what he's been like. The way he's like, "Dad, and then the wine did this." And he's like, "Yeah, yeah, whatever." But to wrap this up, what we've learned in this episode is that France is essentially a wine factory for the English. Yes. And the England are the rightful ears to wine. Yes, it's for us. It's for us. And everyone else is sort of beholden to our tastes, really. Does that give you a different viewpoint than you ever thought? I thought this story would be about how the French decide to gatekeeper. And how it's slowly becoming less pretentious with things like the judgment of Paris bringing in the new world. But really, you're saying that it was the English that made France that up its own arse about wine because we wanted to use France as a wine seller. But the French did gatekeeper wine from the Nazis. Right. And that's what we're going to talk about on the page here. Very nice. What I'll tell that is, do you know how much the wine was? I'll tell you how much was this bottle of wine? We need to guess. I'd say 2015, I think that was a good year. That must be 45 quid. I'd say 40. I'd say 40. 40, 45 quid. You're dead would bring this sort of stuff out, wouldn't you? Yeah, yeah. I mean, he likes the more potentially to go, the more classic he would go for. He thinks anything organic or anything like that is complete work, tock. I agree with them on that. So I'm going to great tip when you're travelling. Don't go for local wine unless it's one of like eight countries, basically. Or you're carrying a lot of lural. Exactly. So listen, Tom, thanks so much for coming. Did you have anything you want to promote? No. No, great. Follow your Instagram. Oh, I'm going to have a book out. Oh, brilliant. Well, that's said something to me. I've got a book. Yeah, I keep forgetting that. You must lose sight of your entitlement for one second when you're promoting things. You must have to flock. It's a different world. Yeah. The shadows gone. That was a book school. The shadows gone. Fuck. Mum, I shrunk the shadows. Fuck, I've lost my shadows. Mummy, I lost my shadows. Can I have a book deal? When's the book out? What's it called? November. It's called thirsty. Brilliant. Yeah. It's one big thirst trap for a certain type of prison gentleman. Yeah. I don't mean for my dad. You're sending thirst traps for my dad. Oh, he's got all his wines in. All that kind of. It's all arsels. Brilliant. A history of arsol of the glass by Tom Gilbert is out in November. Tom's going to stick around for our Patreon bonus episode where we're going to talk about wine in the third Reich. Yes. And if you'd like to draw the Patreon, you get a bonus episode every week for three pounds a month and you get access to all the series in one go. Thanks so much for coming in. This has been Finn versus History. We will see you next week for where if you thought this was a bit fruity, don't worry next week. We will be in the warm bath of World War II. Brilliant. We'll see you next time. Goodbye. Thank you.