Fran Lebowitz

[Music] Welcome to City Arts and Lectures, the season of talks and on-stage conversations with some of the most celebrated writers, artists and thinkers of our day. Recorded before an audience at the Norse Theatre in San Francisco. [Music] Our guest is Fran Lieberwitz. In a cultural landscape filled with endless pundits and talking heads, Lieberwitz stands out as one of our most insightful and witty social commentators. On September 29th, 2018, Lieberwitz spoke to Lawrence Rinder about art and nostalgia. Join me now for a conversation with Fran Lieberwitz. My name is Holly Mulderwollen and along with Kate Goldstein-Brier I'm one of the co-directors of City Arts and Lectures. And this has been a very sad week. City Arts and Lectures lost our founding director, Sydney Goldstein. She passed away on Tuesday, September 25th. She was a Titan of the literary community, a dear friend and mentor to many of us. And she changed the cultural landscape of San Francisco. So while we are very, very saddened, deeply saddened by her passing, we are in a place, the North Theater, that she worked tirelessly to bring back to public use. She loved this place, every detail in this place reflects her. And these talks and conversations were her life's work and her life's passion. So let's celebrate her tonight. Fran Lieberwitz worked with Sydney before she started City Arts and Lectures at the College of Marin. Stephen Barkley is in the audience tonight. He worked with Sydney for more than 20 years. So we're a family tonight. Let's celebrate Sydney. And I'm going to bring Larry Rinder, who is the director of the Barkley Art Museum and Pacific Film Archive. Thank you so much. Hi. So I do want to begin by asking you about Sydney Goldstein, about how you met her and what was she like as a person? I met her in 1978, which was the year my first book came out, almost my last, but not quite. She just called me in my apartment and asked me if I wanted to come and speak at the College of Marin, which I never heard of. But I also never heard of people paying you to talk. So I was like stunned by this. So I said, yes, of course I would love to do this. And the first thing I remember, she picked me up at the airport. She had, I don't know what year it was, like a 62 yellow Mercedes convertible with red leather upholstery. And so I instantly thought this woman's fantastic. So was it City Arts and Lectures your first paid public speaking gig? No, the College of Marin. College of Marin, that's right. But it was Sydney Goldstein, who? It was Sydney. Amazing. And it was where I was asked not that time, because I didn't, I think it was there it might have been San Francisco, where I was asked of doing questions to the audience, my favorite question I've ever been asked. In case you want to know what that is, I'm going to tell you. Someone asked me, it was during the Iranian hostage crisis, for those of you who are young to remember, look it up. And one of the worst legacy of the Iranian hostage crisis was not as you might imagine, the revolution, or the Iatolica. I mean, no, it was 24 hour news, because everyone in the country was glued to this idea. Everyone was thinking, get the hostages, you know, get them, get them. And I can't think of the Ted Comple, you know, the show Nightland, every single night, here we go, day 24, the hostage of day 240. It was literally like that. And so they, you know, someone in the audience asked me, who's your favorite hostage? I say, we're like the Kardashians, we know everything about them, every day we show you their families. And I said, I don't have a favorite hostage, but I have a least favorite hostage wife. So when did you first realize that you're a natural public speaker? When did this first occur to you? I never really thought of it. I mean, at a certain point, it occurred to me that the very things that I was consistently punished for as a child, I was now being paid for. So I mean, I just, to me, it was like unbelievable that the main, I mean, I love doing this. You know, it's like my hobby. I hate getting here. I hate traveling. It's horrible. And sometimes when I come back to New York people go, how did it go? And I tell them how horrible the plane was late and the hotel was this. And they go, I mean, how did they, speaking they go, they'll find, I don't even think about it. Because it's enjoyable. So I tend not to think about things that are enjoyable. And it's easy because there are not that many of them. So I've heard you say that one of the things that you're good at almost invariably is telling the difference between right and wrong. Always. Always. Not almost invariably. Invariably. So how does it feel to live in a post-truth society? I mean, I'm really stunned by the idea that this is in some way things people can't figure out. To me, you know, it's so simple. These are the simplest things in the world. You know, people say, how did you develop your moral compass? You know, everyone should have this. This is not complicated. You know, I mean, it's not like, well, I don't know. Maybe it's kind of okay to attempt to rape someone at a party. Maybe it isn't kind of okay. Maybe it's kind of okay to lie to Congress. Maybe it's not. I mean, it's very simple. You know, it's like Sarah Huckabee, whatever her name is. She always, not always, but frequently talks about God, you know, which of course I find in raging because, oh, I don't know. It's not a church. You know, we have separation of churches. She never heard of that. But, and she always says, I, you know, think, you know, what would God, you know, God tells me to do. I decided to, and I always think, I am no expert on Christianity or any religion. You know, I don't believe in anything you have to believe in. I've never read the Bible. I know nothing about Jesus Christ, but I do know this. I know there are 10 commandments, and one of them is, thou shalt not bear false witness. And your profession is lying all day long to the press. [Applause] So, have you ever changed your mind to be whoever-- Never. Never. I've never changed my mind, and I've only been wrong once. And may I ask what you were wrong about? You may ask. I spent the entire year of the presidential campaign going around the country, telling thousands of people with absolute profound belief, don't worry, there's zero chance he could ever win. And then for the next like three months, you have to the election, I could not leave my apartment with that people yelling at me the street. You were wrong! You were wrong! I know, I'm sorry. I'm really sorry. So, to change subjects a little bit, high school memories are in the news a lot these days, and I wonder if you could share some of your own. There are nothing like his. I didn't know that was available then. I hated high school, loathed high school. I mean, I hate school period. I like grammar school. I love grammar school. I was fantastic in grammar school. I was such an outstanding grammar school student, you would not believe it. Because when I was in grammar school, the main thing we had to do as far as I can recall is draw pilgrims. Who? In the 50s, we loved the pilgrims, by the way. The pilgrims were good. And the Indians loved them too, because the pilgrims showed them how to have things to do. So, I was loved drawing. I was very good at drawing pilgrims, and I even did it at home in my spare time. If I imagine that someday someone would say there would be like a pilgrim emergency. And people would say, "Can anyone here draw pilgrims?" And I would say, "I can!" But once I got to high school, my life completely fell apart because we had algebra. And I mean, I count on my fingers. I only have a brain. But algebra, I don't even know what it is. And I was so terrible at it that I took algebra one four times. And I took it in summer school. And I still don't have any idea what it is. And it tortured me. It ruined my entire life because I was constantly punished for failing algebra. And in my adult life, it never came up once. And I thought, "What was he preparing me for?" I mean, now you probably can do it on your phone. phone or something. But you were actually expelled from high schools. Yes, I was, no, I was not expelled from, yeah. I was failing everything I went to public school. I was failing everything in school, being suspended all the time. I was, we had football games in my high school. I guess every high school. That was one of the worst parts of high school, was the football games. But the really worst thing was on Friday afternoons after school was supposed to be out. We had Pep rallies for the football game for the next day. And I, twice, got caught sneaking out of the Pep rallies. And Pep was mandatory. And I had no Pep. And I still have no Pep. And I hated football, which I also could never understand. And you know, I'd be sitting there and everyone would be cheering. I would have no idea what was going on. I would over and over again ask people to explain the game to me. I could not understand it. And finally, I realized that, you know, it was just that football was kind of algebra in motion. You know, it was something I was never going to understand. And I then never understood why people thought football players were stupid. Because they thought, "Tow stupid because they'd be there." Understand football, which is incredibly complicated. Then the, my mother was always being called to the school. And they told her, "Look, she has to go to private school." She said, "Never going to get in college from here." So my parents didn't have any money. And all the private schools where I lived were single-sex schools. And none of those girls took Jews. So this was not a hidden thing. This was it. And so they found a school a deservedly unknown, deservedly small school. It was like 20 miles away. And I went to this school, and that's where I got expelled. [Laughter] Of course, you're a great public speaker, but a wonderful writer too. In addition to interview, you wrote for Madame O'Zell and Vanity Fair. And you have two books and so on. What's it like to be your editor? And do you take criticism well? [Laughter] I have always had a very strict, no editing policy. And this was easy to interview where no one knew how to read, so it didn't matter. But when I had it in the manuscript for my first book, I wrote on the top of it, "Step." And I had an editor who said, "I don't suppose you're interested in any suggestions." I said, "You're correct." I mean, first of all, my feeling is, if you can write this better than me, write a book. I mean, I feel like no one could be harder on this work than I am. No one. And the only things I've ever asked people have to do with punctuation. You know, because I want to be exactly correct, especially if I'm going to change it. So I always had on my desk a list of people that I knew who went to Catholic school. [Laughter] Although when I was in public school, they taught you grammar. It is an incredibly boring thing to learn. You have to memorize it. It cannot be fun, which is why no one knows it now. It doesn't care how you feel or what you think. It's just a bunch of rules. And people who went to Catholic school, when I was young, the nuns were allowed to hit them. So this is why they're perfect. Perfect. And I have a friend who went to Catholic school from kindergarten through his master's degree. And so I would always call him. I'm going to read you the sentence. Can I use a semicolon instead of a colon? He would go, "No." And I would do it anyway, but at least I would know what I was doing. So now I want to turn to the, really, the topic of the hour. I know that one of your childhood dreams was to be a Supreme Court justice. What do you mean was? [Laughter] [Applause] You know, I don't know if you know this, but you do not have to be a lawyer to be on the street of the court. And I'm already not a lawyer. And all of the questions that come before the Supreme Court are incredibly simple. I mean, I don't know why it takes more than one minute to figure it out. I would be a fantastic judge. I'm very judgmental. And I make snap judgments. And the Supreme Court's justice has writers who write the things for them. I would be perfect. So do you have any advice on how to survive, well, specifically? How do we survive the next couple years of Donald Trump? I'm hoping we won't have to. You know, I mean. You know, I have. I hesitate, and this is, you know, unique to me, to give my opinion of what I think is going to happen, because I was so wrong, but I have always thought since it happened that he wasn't going to finish the term. I did not think that he was going to be impeached, or, of course, his Congress will never impeach him. And should the Democrats take Congress? I most, most, most hope they don't start impeachment proceedings. Because I'm sick of thinking about Donald Trump. You know, the focus should not be on Donald Trump. If the Democrats get in, they should start repealing every possible thing they can that he did. You know. [applause] Yeah. And just ignore him. You know, I always thought that if Mueller got close to him, you know, like really close, or if he thought that they could get really close to, you know, that, you know, complete, you know, con game. He always ran in New York where he cannot be pardoned or pardoned anyone. But I always thought that he was probably going to say, you know, this is ridiculous. You know, this is taking up too much of my time. You know, I've done the best I can. I was the best president we ever had. I'm going back and living in the piece of junk I built on Fifth Avenue, and I'm going back there. You know, that's what I always thought, you know. You always think and hope. You read, you look at him first of all, and you read about his habits, and you think, who eats this junk? And then you think most people, I know, don't eat it because they think you'll drop dead if you eat it. Apparently, he's fine. So looking forward to 2020, do you have a dream presidential candidate? Nate. I mean, I know that I couldn't win this room. That's why I don't run. But I've never, ever watched any president give a state of a union address without being filled with envy. And thinking like, why can't I be the president? I have solutions to every single thing. It's not that complicated. You know, I would like to be the president one term. So I'm going to do what's right. You know, I don't care whether you like me or not. You know, friend, it could happen. Stranger things have happened. No, no stranger thing has happened. So I know you're not so fond of Michael Bloomberg, right? I lose Michael Bloomberg. I know he's going to run. He's going to run. He's going to run because somehow he imagines two things. A, the next president is going to be a 78-year-old five-foot-two Jewish billionaire from New York. That's what he obviously believes. I do not believe that. But really probably what Michael Bloomberg believes is what now a million people believe was, if Donald Trump can be the president, who can't be the president? He's already spent $80 million polling. He, I hate him for many reasons, but people outside of New York do not know that he stole a third term. We have term limits. We voted twice for term limits for America. Two terms, four years each. He wanted to be the president last time. He, he pulled because he saw rich and discovered, I guess, no five-foot-two Jewish billionaire from New York, I mean the president, and decided he wasn't going to run. But he didn't want to lead the limelight. So he convinced Christine Quinn, this woman who I also love, who was the, what was called, President City Council, which is a very powerful position in New York, to like calm them into like some crazy thing of why he did this. One time only, like Bush v. Gore, you know, like Sandra Dayle Conner's, you know, opinion. This is for one time you so leave. Even though I, I work in a body that's supposed to set president, and he got that third term. So I guess he thinks he's going to be the president, but he's not going to be the president. So everyone is so distressed about the future of the world. Do you think there's a reason to be optimistic? No. Well, there is a reason to be optimistic, only in this sense. I mean, I'm not sure optimistic because we're looking for. I mean, it's not going to stay like this, you know, I mean something like, you know, it's not going to stay like this, it's going to stay like that. You know, I don't know what's going to happen. It's true that, you know, I mean, off the top of my head, I could name you a dozen people, a Democrats, who think they're going to be the next president. You know, and I'm sure there doesn't Republicans who thinks this. And part of that is because no one, even the Republicans, really thinks this guy is really a president. So, I mean, sometimes I'm on the subway and I sit there and I think to myself, when those doors open, the first person that comes through those doors would be a better president Donald Trump. And this is true, even if that person is an extroler. Well, one piece of good news I have about the future for all of you. is that the next part of the show belongs to you, I'm gonna turn it over to you and Fran, and Fran will take questions from the audience for the next 45 minutes or so. However, long Fran wants to be here, she will do that. So I'm gonna say goodbye to you Fran. - Well, thank you very much. - And I'm gonna join the audience. We love having you, you're wonderful. - Thank you very much. Thank you. (audience applauding) - So I just wanna say, they do something here that I ordinarily do not allow. Let me put, I never allow, which is they, they're gonna have mics in the audience because they have a podcast, not that I know what that is. (audience laughing) Something like a radio show. So I will, you can raise your hand, I will call on you, someone with a microphone will approach you. This will make it take longer, but they'll be able to hear you on the podcast. - I have a question regarding your experience with, where are you? - I'm right here in pink. - Okay, okay. - All right, I'm everywhere. I guess in terms of developing your trust as a writer, I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you said. Say you get 'em. - If what? - How do you develop this trust as a writer and overcoming the writing blockades that you've experienced throughout your years? - Yes. - How did I overcome my writer's block? I have not. If I had overcome my writer's block, I wouldn't have to be here. (audience laughing) - These questions went back to the orchestra, so you're right. All the way to the background. - I, I don't condone the idea of having impeachment of Trump. I think that's basically BS, but I kind of would like to know what you think of Pence 'cause he scares me even more. - Yes, a lot of people say this about Pence, it would be worse with Pence. The upside of Pence is that he could never, ever, ever be elected. I mean, because unlike Trump, Pence has a very clear ideology. This is shared luckily by not enough people, even in the really bad states. I mean, even in the South. (audience laughing) So that he is really a religious nut. So that he could never be elected. So it would be better have Pence, I think, than Trump, because he could never be reelected. And so that I'm not afraid of Pence being the president. And so that is my opinion about Pence. I mean, of course, I like most people, and I've never heard of him before. I have actually a friend who lives in Indiana, and I sit down with this guy, Pence, I said, what do you think of this? He said, we are just happy that he's left this state. (audience laughing) You have Indiana is, in case you don't know, one of the worst states we have. (audience laughing) And we have plenty of them. And Indiana is where the Ku Klux Klan started. You think, no, Alabama, no, Alabama, is better than Indiana in this particular thing. (audience laughing) Indiana is kind of, I know it's not really in the South, but it's kind of in the South. Trump found Pence the same way he found Kavanaugh. They hand in these lists. Truthfully, if we ever took power in a real way, the first thing we have to get are these lists. (audience laughing) When I start putting these people in jail, I wanna list. You know, they have lists and lists of these people. - This question's over on your left. - Yes. - Miss Lebel Woods, I was sitting next to the person years ago when they asked the question, who's your favorite hostage? - You are too young, that is impossible. - No, I'm not. And it was brilliantly you did. We had a conversation after the fact about it. And to this day, it's hysterical to me. Thank you so much. - It's well, you know, perhaps we'll have another hostage of crisis and it'll come up again. (audience laughing) - This question is from the balcony. - Switching gears on a more serious side, I just wanted to ask, where did you get those boots? (audience laughing) - I am so glad you asked. I hope you heard, where did you get those boots? I designed these boots, okay? These are, unless someone has copied me, not impossible. The only wingtip cowboy boots in the world. I designed these boots, the person who made these boots was so impossible, such, so crazy, that once I finally got these boots, which took him two years to make. I mean, you think it was an essay taking that long. Took him two years to make. I thought, take care of these boots friend, you're never gone through this again. And so people very often say, oh, you know, who made your boots, would you recommend them? I say, I would not recommend them. Okay, this guy who lived in Texas for two years, kept calling me and lying to me. This guy was a very good looking guy in a very sleazy way, and he was coming off this lifetime of lying to women. So he would constantly call me, I'm really sorry, I'm in the Toronto airport, and I was gonna have to go to Dallas, and I would say to him, I forgot his name. I would say, let me explain something to you. I am not your girlfriend. I don't care where you are. I care where my boots are. (audience laughs) So thank you for noticing the boots. (audience applauds) - This question's in the center of the orchestra. - Hi Fran, nice to meet you. - Hi, nice to meet you. - I would invite you to be in my perfect world for a minute, where it's past 2020, and the Democrats have taken back the house, they've repealed everything that's gone wrong in the last year and a half, and we're looking towards our new president, and it's you in the house. What would you do in the first 100 days? - I wouldn't need 100 days. (audience laughs) Why do they say, why would it take 100 days? I mean, it's not like you have to write something. Something really hard. You mean, everything's already repealed, everything is perfect? Is that what you're saying? Everything's already perfect? That I would say, I'm finished. (audience laughs) And get on that swell plane, which surely he does not deserve. There are, as you know, I mean, there's not five minutes goodbye, that you don't think someone has to fix this. Like, it's inconceivable, although it just happened, that the president of the United States addresses the UN and is laughed at. I mean, that's pretty astonishing, especially to me, who as a child, I had two childhood idols. One was Leonard Bernstein and one was Zach Hammershal. You probably heard of Leonard Bernstein, you made out of her, Zach Hammershal, he was the Secretary General of the UN. I have many books by Zach Hammershal. I have his photograph on my refrigerator. And so I always think, what would Zach Hammershal think of this? When I was a child, the class, you know, from school for a tour of the UN, and I don't know what I was like, maybe nine years old, and I was incredibly excited because I thought I would see Zach Hammershal. And I had a book about Zach Hammershal, and I brought it with me, and we're walking around the UN, and I kept thinking I was gonna see him. And so a man in a suit walked by, and I thought it was Zach Hammershal, so I left the line. We were always marched around like by heightened and a lot, and I left the line and went after him, and then I couldn't find him 'cause there were many men in suits, and I couldn't tell which one he was. And so I pushed a door to where I thought he'd gone through, and every alarm in the UN went off. (audience laughing) And a policeman came over and I burst into tears, and I said, there wasn't that much security there, then obviously if I was even able to do this, and I kept saying, I thought I saw Zach Hammershal, and I thought I saw Zach Hammershal. 'Cause I didn't really know who Zach Hammershal was. (audience laughing) So that for me, the UN, I once spoke at the UN, not to the General Assembly, and I was incredibly excited to be at the UN. Donald Trump, you may have missed this, but before he was a president, his only comment about the UN was, he didn't like the marble tile, and that he could get them a better deal. (audience laughing) On the marble tile. So I truthfully think that if Abraham Lincoln came back to life, it would take a decade to repair the damage that Trump has done. I really do. So, I can't really tell you what I could accomplish in a hundred days, but except for Abraham Lincoln, more than most. (audience applauding) - Your listening to a conversation with Fran Lieberwitz. This is City Arts and Lectures. - This is from the orchestra to your far right. - Over here, hi Fran. - Hi. - Hi. - For me, you're sort of synonymous with New York in the 70s and 80s, and that's what I happen to be from. And I'm curious, but what are your thoughts on sentimentality? Are, is there anything that makes you sentimental and if so, what? And just what are your thoughts in general about nostalgia? - Nostalgia is a very poisonous thing. It's a really bad thing. Yeah, that's why you have Donald Trump as a president. You know, that's about nostalgia is, oh, is truthfully about something that never existed. You know, or existed, you know, it's when Rudolf Giuliani ran for mayor the first time. We don't see very many political ads in New York, especially for presidential elections, because it's the most expensive media market, and because you know, they're not gonna trick New York into voting for Republican for president. (audience laughs) But we see local political ads, and when Giuliani first ran for mayor, I kept saying to people, you know, the ads were almost exactly the Trump ads, you know, in later years, and I said, "Watch these ads for Giuliani." Basically, he's saying vote for me, and it'll be 1958 again, and when New York was great, you know? And it's the exact same thing that Trump does, and that Trump did, and you know, it was, who was a great for? You guys, that's who was great for. So it was not great for anyone else. New York in the '70s, too much to my astonishment, I am constantly stopped in the street by people in their '20s, telling me they wish they'd lived in New York in the '70s. Now, this is really not a good thing, because I know that when I was in my '20s, I wasn't constantly thinking, I wish I'd lived in New York from the '30s, you know? (audience laughs) It is the job of people who are young to do new things. That is their job, okay? So, you know, personal nostalgia, that people have for their own lives, you know, that's fine, that's harmless, you know, that's just human nature. But it's very bad for the culture, for sure, not just the society, it is terrible for the culture. That is why we have seen, for the last, like, 35 years, this kind of round robin of collages, you know, that you see in every single art form. You know, I went to a party for someone in their '20s, as a friend's kid, and I knew every single song they were playing. Now, that's not right. (audience laughs) You know, I mean, when people say, you know, "Wasn't Europe better in the '70s, "I made an effort to think, was it better, "was Europe better in the '70s, "because I was in my '20s?" Or, "Was it actually better in the '70s?" You know, this is very hard to tell, because, you know, wasn't a more fun in the '70s, you know, and I was thinking, well, it was certainly more fun for me, you know, because I was in my '20s. You know, if you're not having more fun in your '20s, then you do it in your '60s. If you don't have fun in your '20s, you're never gonna have fun. So I would know, you're like, right now, give up the idea of fun. If you're in your '20s and you're not having fun, forget it. It does not get progressively more fun. There are some advantages to being older, but fun is not to be counted among them. (audience laughs) So, what is kind of interesting to me is that New York in the '70s has now achieved this position of breathable, like, fashionableness, you know, like Paris in the '20s. And so, you know, sometimes I think, I mean, I really had to go time in New York in the '70s. It was really fun. It was, you know, there were numerous reasons for this. You know, one of which is that the city was going bankrupt, so that, you know, the only people who lived there were people who deserved to. I mean, I didn't really, I knew the city was going bankrupt 'cause they were constantly, you know, saying the newspaper, see, it was going bankrupt. But if you yourself are penniless, it does make no difference if the city's bankrupt. You know, I didn't care at all. So that, you know, it wasn't really fun in the '70s, and it was really fun for me. And it also was before AIDS. And, you know, we were incredibly, I don't know how to put it, we were like, incredibly promiscuous. And we thought nothing could happen to us and nothing happened to me, but something happened to a lot of other people. And so, you know, there was a kind of, you know, carelessness that I think is not going to come back. I'm for carelessness, but I'm not for, you know, like death sentence. So, you know, these worlds in the '70s, you know, like I was saying to Larry, were really small. There was, in the '70s, you could fit the entire New York Art World into one restaurant, okay? And also, it used to be called the Art World, and now it's called the Art Market, and that's the difference between that and now. (audience applauding) - Next is to you, far left in the balcony. - Hi, Fran. My name's Katie, huge fan. - Thank you. - All of us love listening to you. And I wonder, what do you get out of this? Why do you do this year, after year, after year? Do you enjoy this? - Or. - I do enjoy it, but they pay me for this. - I know, obviously. This is not an actor for "Lanthorough" Bates. (audience laughing) So, I actually do enjoy it. I mean, I really enjoy it. If I could do this in New York, I could do it every single night, without, you know, and then go to dinner, I wouldn't even notice it. You know, I mean, I never, I look forward to it. I really enjoy it. I can't believe I thought this up, so that, is that what you asked me, why do I do this? Yeah, that's why I do it. It's fun, and they pay me for it. And that's a very rare combination, as you probably already know by now for yourself. (audience laughing) - This question's in the orchestra on your left. - Hi. - Hi. - I'm curious to hear your thoughts about Instagramming culture. - I do not have any of these modern devices. I do not have a phone. I do not have a computer. I do not have an iPad. I do not have a microwave oven. If you taught me, I could text on a microwave oven, I might believe you, but I wouldn't care. So, however, I know what all these things are, 'cause people are always talking about them, and showing them to me. So, I mean, I have no objection to it. I don't really care that much what other people do. I'm not that interested in other people. So, I know what Instagram is. I've actually been on Instagram. But I just, with people saying, "Do you think this is bad?" I don't think it's bad, but since it exists, it doesn't even matter whether people think it's bad or not. What I do, what I love about this is that I am the only person in the entirety of New York who notices anything anymore. And so, I cannot believe everyone in New York has seated this to me. Just hand it all city over to me. So, like, I'm in the street. I'm the only person who's looking around. I'm in the subway. I'm the only person who notices anything. You know, there used to be a lot of competition in New York for noticing things. There's none now. Not a single thing. You know, so that for this, I'm very grateful. And for the rest of it, you know, I don't care. I mean, many things people do, I find astonishing. Because even if I had a phone, it would never have occurred to me to do all I was walking. It just wouldn't have. The other day, I saw a kid who practically killed me, of course, riding his bike down 7th Avenue, steering it with his elbows, because in one hand, he was eating a sandwich. And in the other hand, he was texting. (audience laughing) And I thought, this is just one of the reasons I hate bicycles. (audience laughing) - This is in the back of the orchestra to your far right. - Hi, Fran. I'm an also Fran. And I'm with you on algebra. I think it should be abolished. So I wonder if you have some other topics or high school college subjects you think should be abolished. - I think high school should be abolished. (audience laughing) I mean, I should fully think high school should be abolished. I really do. I mean, I don't think people that they should be in school. I don't. I think if she goes to grammar school, then work for four years. (audience laughing) You know, at a job where you don't have to be, when I was in high school, the bus picked you up at 6.15 in the morning. I mean, this is totally unsipilized and gives you a very, very harsh opinion of education. So, I think that, you know, it's, first of all, it's the time in your life that you lead, that your most interested, you're starting to become most interested in sex. You don't want to think about algebra, even if you know what it is. And they should just let you out and work. And then you can go to high school when you're like 17. When you have deserved it to some extent, to relax and go to school instead of work. Most people that I've known in my life, whether they're my age or they're younger, people hate high school. You know, there's usually like two people in every high school who enjoy it. One is a captain of the football team. (audience laughing) And the other one is his girlfriend. The upside of this is, when you get to be older, if you go back to the place that you were, I had this experience actually in my life. I was back in the town where I grew up. This is about 10 years ago. And I took my car through a car wash, and the guy, cleaning up the car, he told me, "Oh, I see you on TV." And, you know, you're from here, right? I said, "Yes." He said, "You know, I went to Marcent High. "Did you go there?" I said, "Yes." Then he told me his name. I'm not gonna say it. And I said, "You're kidding. "You're him." This was the star basketball player in my high school. There was a cheer with his name in it, which I instantaneously went into. (audience laughing) To do the cheer. And this huge grin appeared on his face, and then I thought to myself, "This was the highlight of this guy's life." You know, and this is almost always the truth. They usually don't become Supreme Court justices. And, (audience laughing) Should we be lucky and he not become a Supreme Court Justice? I will happily arrange for him to get a job in this car wash. And I can assure you that the guy who's working in this car wash would make a much better Supreme Court Justice. This question is from the balcony to your far left. Hi, up there. Hi, friend. Hi, so much. This has been a delayed flame. I just wanted to ask you a question about the civility in the country now in the lack of it and sort of the culture of lying, bullying and all of that. I know you said it would take 10 years to reverse everything Trump has done. Do you think there's a hope for that at all? Well, I mean, these are to me different. The civility in this country, which I don't really recall the country being, you know, exactly like an episode of upstairs downstairs. So the I was talking about the institutions of the country. And I think it'll take more than 10 years to repair them. Some of this is just manners. You know, I mean, it's some of it is just it is what I was young a child. The worst thing about childhood was no one ever asked you a question. No one ever listened to me, not just me, all children. The thing was frequently said to children when I was a child was your adjusted child. I would say I think and they would glare at me like who asked you what you think you're just a child. What my mother did because mothers raised children then because fathers worked and that was it. From morning to night, they issued instructions. You know, put your navigate on your lap. Don't put your hand. Don't reach over someone. Don't grammar lessons. All the stuff non-stop. This is my childhood summed up. I would say to my mother, can I please have an apple? And my mother would say, may I please have an apple? And I would say, may I please have an apple? And she would say no. So consequently, I have excellent manners. The most I can hope for in that regard is I have lately been trying to bring back the phrase, you're welcome. Because here's what happens now. Someone says, thank you for coming. Then the other person says, thank you for having me. Oh, thank you for coming. And it goes on forever. How I've lately been saying to people, they'll say, thank you for coming. I'll say you're welcome. And they look at me like you are so rude. So if you mean civility like in the Senate, yes, apparently there was this time where these senators walked off arm and arm, you know, in some wonderful aura of friendship, it's certainly much better than it is now. That would certainly be better. You know, this constant talk about how partisan politics have become is in a way kind of funny. I mean, politics, partisan politics is redundant. You know, politics are partisan. That's the point of politics, that's our partition. The problem with politics is that that's our partisan. The problem with politics is Republicans. Hi, thanks very much. A nervous hell talking to you. That's okay. I can't even see you. My shirt says no. And I work just for you. I know it's important not to be nostalgic about, you know, the way the political situation in the past, but it seems like especially since Clinton became a Republican and took over the Democratic party that the Republicans resulted to demagoguery as the avenue to differentiate themselves from the Democrats. How do you get out of a cycle of demagoguery in public politics and or is it even possible? You know, I don't really think that the Republicans became that way because of the Democrats. They're just bad. They're bad on their own. You know, this is an impulse in the Republican party that's always been there. And that, you know, becomes, you know, increasingly more vivid. You know, because it has an audience. That's the reason. I mean, you know, I am certain, I mean, if you recall the campaign where there were like 15 Republicans, you know, no one, including those 15 people, thought Trump was going to be the candidate. You know, they had a vast array of other horrible Republicans, you know, and they didn't like Trump because he's not a Republican. He's a fascist. I mean, he's not a Republican at all, you know, so that, you know, the Republican party is not the Republican party more. It is now a cult. You know, it is a cult and Donald Trump is the leader of this cult. There's not an ideology, is it Trump or to this party at all. You know, when during the campaign, when he, I first started seeing those, what do you call them, those rallies that he had. I was pretty stunned by them. I mean, I was watching them and I called someone and I said, are you watching this? This is a George Wallace rally. For those of you who are younger, George Wallace was the governor of Alabama, one of our worst states. And he ran as a third party candidate and on the party platform of segregation. And I was pretty surprised. I mean, and when you watch them now, because he continues having them, because that's what he likes to do. What, you know, the people love going there. This is why they vote for him, those people. They vote for him because apparently it is so intensely pleasurable to express your racism that you don't care what he does. You know, so like I thought, do they really believe he's going to bring back the callmines? And I thought, well, some of them might. I mean, but mostly I think they're just so happy to be able to say this horrible stuff and to be able to cheer for this awful stuff. You know, that it's worth it to them. You know, so, you know, I knew there were a lot of people like this in the country. I didn't know there were this many of them. But it is still a minority. You know, if we didn't have the electoral college, this never would have happened. You know, I mean, I'll tell you one thing. As hard as it is impossible, it is to explain algebra to me. It is equally hard to explain the electoral college to people who are not American. So because when this happened, my friends who are not American would be because say what I understand. She got more votes. And I would say I explained it. I remember talking to this French guy one night. I explained to him and he goes, oh, so I didn't work. I said, no, it worked perfectly. The electoral college works perfectly. It did exactly what was meant to do, which is to overweight the southern rural vote. That is the point of the electoral college. I mean, there are lots of things, you know, about the American, the structure of the American government that are ridiculous. Why does every state have two senators? Why does Wyoming have two senators? There are more people here than live in Wyoming. Why do Wyoming have two senators and California have two senators? It's ridiculous. Are these senators supposed to represent a quiche or human beings? I mean, it's completely ridiculous. The representatives should be by the population. Of course, it should be a popular vote. The words popular vote should be redundant words. The vote should be the vote. If you're say Hillary Clinton and you get three million more votes, you won. I mean, at least I mean, I don't know the history of that. Well, but in my lifetime, the two presidents who lost the popular vote and won by the electoral college were both Republicans, George W. Bush and Donald Trump. You know, so that there doesn't seem to be a thing we need to do about this. This will require a constitutional amendment, which is incredibly hard to pass, even when you have real people in Congress. Now it seems to me to be out of the question this would occur. I mean, when in Bush's second campaign, I think he was running against Kerry the second time, I think. Is that right? Yes. Okay. So I was at someone's house. We were watching the returns and as we're watching this map and everybody, at least everybody I know really thought that Kerry was going to win. They thought this because all these big shots were telling each other, I just saw the exit polls from CBS. And then as you see the map, you start to see, you know, what's happening. And one of the guys at this table said, it's so and so's fault. And the other guy goes, no, it's so and so's fault. I'm looking to sing. And I said, no, this is Abraham Lincoln's fault. Because if you look at the map, where it's read, this is a Confederacy. He should have let them go. Let them have their own country. They could have their own country. Would we miss them? Would we say, where are we going to get some more people who know nothing about anything? Where are we going to get, you know, what are we going to do without those 80 billion guns they have in every single one of those trailers? I know you're not supposed to say that, but I'm not actually running for anything, so I'm saying it. I mean, on top of which, I've never seen more frightened people in my life. Especially this thing with guns. Why did we, I have to have these guns to protect myself. I have to have these guns to protect my family. I have to have these guns. That's why we have to have these guns because we have to protect ourselves. And you know, you look at where they live, they live in the middle of nowhere. There's no one there to hurt them. You know, I mean, if I, who live in the. and lived in New York City in the 1970s, which was really dangerous. I didn't have a gun. I'm still alive. (audience laughs) You don't really need these guns, it turns out. So that, to me, if we had a kind of, when you look at the list of, what are the poorest states in the country? They are always those states. Why are those states the poorest states? Not because they don't have natural resources. A lot of them have a lot of natural resources. They don't have human resources. That is their problem. They spend like a dollar a year for people on public education. They don't believe in public education. They don't believe the government should not involve themselves in educating people. Let's homeschool them. Where parents who know nothing will then teach your children nothing. (audience laughs) I don't know what you asked me, but. (audience laughs) I hope you're satisfied with that answer. (audience laughs) - This question comes from the center of the balcony. Okay. - Hi. - Hi. Would you please tell us a little bit about your participation in law and order? - Yes. When I please tell you, or at least her, about my participation in law and order, which was a TV show, where I played, I had a recurring part as an rainman judge. I got this part by begging them to give me this part. I knew I played the orchestra, and they'll play the police captain. And then I met Dick Walfe, who invented this thing. And I said, you know, put me on the, I love law and order. I still love law and order. I love it. There's not the only thing. I know that other people find other ways to relax. Yoga, spa, you know. I'm not the spa guru, you might imagine. But whenever that music is, it does, there's like three. I hear that, I become the Dalai Lama. (audience laughs) I become instantly relaxed. And one of my biggest objections to the present popular culture, is why there is not a law and order channel. Because that's the only thing I ever want to say on television is law and order. And so they actually first, we're gonna give me this part as a real judge. And I had to go and audition for him. And the producers sit there, and I did the audition, and I knew I was horrible. And the second I stopped, I said, look, I know I was really bad. I said, you know, this part's too big for me. Don't give me this part. Give me an arrangement judge part because that's really brief with like two sentences. And the producer said, "Fran actors don't say, I know I failed the audition, so give me a different part." I said, I know, but I'm not an actor. So I can say it. So they did give me this part. And it was fantastic because, first of all, you got to wear the judicial robe, which the long order was done on film. So it was just like shooting a movie. So the work days, even if you were on for two minutes, were like 12, 16 hours, you'd be there forever. The second I would arrive, I would go to the wardrobe department, put on my robe. They would say, "Fran, you don't have to put the robe on." Oh, that's okay. I don't buy it. (audience laughs) And I remember, they shot it in Chelsea Studios, which were on the river where they were just started then to build, now it's finished, unfortunately. This path, you know, for people to like, write bicycles and skateboard. It's like the whole city's turned into some summer camp. (audience laughs) And I was outside smoking cigarette, wearing my robe. And this kid came corining down a skateboard. This kid with like a million tattoos and piercings. And he saw me and he stopped like that. And he said, "I didn't know there was a court here." And I said, "There's a court everywhere." (audience laughs) So I really, I cannot tell you how much I enjoy being on Law and Order. I also, every other judge on TV copied me, because when you sit at that bench, which is the best seat ever in any room in the world. You know, you sit there, you're higher than everyone else, you have a real comfortable chair, and you have a gavel. (audience laughs) And because the gavel is there, I took to like banging the gavel. And I instantly got dozens of letters from lawyers and judges. Many from judges, you are not supposed to gavel. You are not gavel as a verb, by the way, to a judge. You are not supposed to gavel unless there is an outburst or something in the courtroom. However, now, every single television judge gavels. (audience laughs) It's just an irresistible thing. You can't not gavel. It's, I can't tell you what a pleasurable thing this is. Think about it. You have a hammer in your hand that stops other people from talking. (audience laughs) (audience applauds) - This is from the back and center of the orchestra. - Hi, Shayne. - Hi, Fran. - Hi. - I remember seeing you, sorry, excuse me. I remember seeing you on the documentary "Paris' Burning." And I wanted to know what you thought about RuPaul and the drag scene becoming more popular. - Apparently "Paris' Burning," which I think was made like 25 years. I mean, it was made really a long time ago. I had forgotten about it. It's apparently been revived. Because lots of people who are young talk about this movie. I know RuPaul, I mean, I've actually met RuPaul. It's a TV show, right? The drag thing, whatever you're talking about. It's like a contest for drag queens. Which is now on television. I mean, this is the kind of thing that used to be like a very covert thing because it was against the law. So it was very covert. It was extremely different. And now it's on television. And this is apparently the most progress we can hope for. You know, so I mean, I have nothing against this. If people find this entertaining, he's kind of funny as a person. He is still someone you call he, I'm assuming. I mean, no disrespect. And but in the '70s, for instance, sometimes I would be at a party or someplace and someone would come in with drag and I would always say, how'd you get here? Because you could not walk on the street like that. You'd be arrested. You could not be on the subway like that. Only candy could do that because people thought that she was a girl. She didn't really look like a girl, but never curved to anyone that a man would look like that. So there was an upside to this oppression, by the way, which is that she could walk around like that. I know that now it's like a-- it's so interesting that we live in a country. I think this is a very popular television show, which means that many, many people in the country like this and think it's fine and it's OK. And they still vote for Donald Trump. So these things are not always how they look. This is not always a sign of being progressive. Paris's burning was about-- I can't think what it's called now-- these contests. Vogueing. That's right. So those voguing things-- I used to go to them. They were fantastically interesting because they're completely invented. And I remember that when I did that interview for Paris's burning, a lot of people that were talking about that then imagined-- to me, what was interesting about it was that it was mistaken at that time for some kind of bohemianism. Which in fact, it's the opposite. It is desire to be conventional. That causes that. Not the desire to be rebellious. You don't have to be rebellious if everyone already hates you. So I think this is thing that people don't really understand about this. So it's interesting to me that it ended up as like a popular network television show. And I know it's very popular. I don't think that real voguing exists anymore. There's no way that it could because who could afford to rent those places. Oh, hi, Fran. I'm Jill. Hi. And I'm going to change the subject a little bit. Sorry. I just wanted to know, who has been the most influential person in your life? I'm going to sneak in the second one. And what's your favorite movie? Who's the most influential person in my life? And what's my favorite movie? In my life, they're not connected. I'd have to say. I don't know really who's the most influential person in my life. I'm not that easily influenced. And probably when I was, I was so young. I don't remember who that person was. Who was the most influential person in my life. I mean, there is a person in my life. There's only one person. I mean, I know a lot of smart people, but I've only ever known one wise person. And that person is Tony Morrison. So Tony is someone that I've known for 40 years. We've been close friends for 40 years. And Tony is a person who I ask questions instead of giving answers. I ask her questions. I ask her advice. I don't mean necessarily for little things, but I ask her advice. And she's like, so-- she's the opposite of me. She really listens. She really thinks about it. She'll call you back. Maybe you should-- this is someone so unlike me, I can tell you. And she's very-- she is, of course, very smart. She's, of course, very talented. But talent, intelligence, not common, but not unheard of. But wisdom-- this is the only person I've ever known like that. So I wish there were other people like that, but so far I haven't met them. And I'm not young. And I've met a billion people. So if you don't already know Tony, you're probably not going to meet someone like that. My favorite thing is, I'm not going to be a person. favorite movie. I don't really have one favorite movie. When it comes to favorites, I only have one favorite hostage. I don't have one favorite book. I don't have one favorite. I just don't -- I'm not like that. I'm not that adorable. This is from the back of the orchestra. To your right. Hi, Fran. Hi. I'd love to know your take on the Me Too movement. She left the No My Take on the Me Too movement. Because you think I might have some contrary opinion, like that idea or -- this is one of these things that I have found completely surprising. I never imagined this would happen, not in a zillion years. Because being a woman was the same from like Eve until like six months ago. So naturally, it never occurred to me. This would ever change at all. And so it really changed. I mean, the first -- I don't know -- the first dozen guys who got caught, I know every single one of them personally, every single one of them. And if you had told me one minute before that these guys would be gone, I would never have believed in a million years. Not in a million years. Now I have to say, I mean, like Harvey, for instance, so I think it was the first one. I knew Harvey for a million years. I know a million stories about Harvey. I believed every single one of them. But I never heard these rape stories. I never heard these violent stories. I never heard them. Beyond that is because, you know, it's one thing like you hear someone sub with someone to get a part in a movie, which by the way, that's -- the definition for that would always have been the movie business. But the violence and rape, I never heard that. I heard a million stories about Charlie Rose. I never heard these stories about these interns. You know, I never heard these stories. Here's how I feel. I believe every single woman proved to me she's lying. Show me a movie of her lying. You know, because -- and the reason I believe this is because I am a woman, but really more importantly, I was a girl. You know, and I should really believe that even the best men, and I believe that my friends who are men are the best men because otherwise they wouldn't be my friends. I mean, I wouldn't be their friend, it's more. So even the best men that there are, the smartest, the most thoughtful, you know, even these men do not really understand this. It's -- I think really an impossible thing for a man to understand, you know, because it's a thing that starts when you're like 12 years old, sometimes younger. I mean, part of it starts younger. I mean, it's better now, I mean, the way that girls are brought up, you know, but when I was a girl, the answer to almost any question, why you couldn't do something you're a girl? Oh, okay. Now I know they don't do that anymore. I know they tell them the opposite, you know, which is equally untruthful, which is you can do it every one. I think that, you know, the best way to explain it to men not to make them understand completely because I don't really care how much they understand it is to explain to them that basically the important thing they have to know is that it's about work. You know, it's not about romance. You know, it's not about your personal, you know, interest in people. It's about work, you know, and so that no one will, you know, in the case of Harvey, you know, all these stories, I know no one feels sorry for movie stars. Why would you? I don't feel sorry for movie stars. I mean, who wouldn't want to be a movie star? Yeah, this is a fantastic job. You do almost nothing and they pay you a zillion dollars. So, you know, but I always say, you know, this is about movie stars. Yes, it would be nice if movie stars don't have to do this, you know, to me, you know, worrying about movie stars, this should be like last on the list. Let's start with people who make bets in hotels. Okay? You know, let's start with women who work for below the minimum wage because they're not legally in the country and who work totally under the control of the guy who runs the linen closet on their floor. A guy who in the world of men has zero status and zero power and then he is like totally in control of the lives of these women. So, let's start with them first and then at the very end, we could worry about, you know, a movie star. You know, it's like one problem with the left is this intense focus on minutia. I mean, I'm thinks that are really not important. I mean, I know you're going to, you know, think this is totally self-serving, but it is actually not. You know, even like five or six years ago, I would have said what has the left accomplished in the last 30 years? Basically, what the left accomplished was getting people to stop smoking cigarettes. This was a left issue, okay? And they couldn't get people to stop smoking cigarettes because it's an addiction. I know you think there's a character flaw, but it's not. It's an addiction. People feel sorry for people who are addicted to every other thing, including heroin, but cigarette smokers, they hate. So, they couldn't get people to stop smoking. So, they infected this thing which I do not believe is true, called the dangers of second hand smoke. So, what they got was people who didn't smoke to get the people who smoked to stop smoking. And it took 30 years and caused millions of dollars and all the attention and it worked. And while you were doing that, the Republicans picked up your country and put it in their pocket, okay? Last week, I saw in the newspaper that the mayor of LA is going to make the sale of fur illegal Los Angeles. Now Los Angeles is not exactly the coldest place in the United States. It's hard to imagine that it's like the fur capital of the world. But this is something so important that he's going to make this illegal. My feeling is this, if you want to make something illegal Los Angeles, make homelessness illegal. Let's first, when everyone's living inside and not hungry, then let's start thinking about the minks. Because I know a lot of animal lunatics think, you know, minks, humans, snakes, grasshoppers, all the same. And, you know, you're wrong. So, I mean, you might not think of me this way, but at least in this regard, I'm a humanitarian. I care more about human beings than I do about minks which I like to point out are rodents. So I don't myself have a fur coat. I'm not the type to have a fur coat. I don't care if other people have a fur coat. I do not really care that much what other people do. And people have a lot of focus on other people's individual way of life, their habits. You know, you shouldn't eat meat, you eat meat, but you shouldn't eat fuel. You know, you shouldn't have fur coat. You should, I mean, this is really not that important. This is how you might choose your friends, but not how you should run the country. You know, it makes no sense. This is the last question from the back and center of the orchestra. Hello, Fran. Hello. So, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez won Democratic primary for House nomination in New York. And shortly thereafter held the town hall at which she banned the press from attending. And my question for you is, do you give young politicians a bit of wiggle room in terms of getting their feet on them? Or will you come down pretty hard in making sure they fall in line? I didn't know that she did this, but I mean, of course, politicians in the United States cannot ban the press. Okay. I did not know this. You know, and she was completely wrong and should not do that. And, you know, truthfully, no one knows anything. You know, you cannot ban the press in this country. We have a first amendment. You know, I know they care only about the second amendment, but we have a first amendment. You know, once Trump became the president, they blocked off all these blocks on Fifth Avenue where you couldn't drive because, you know, that Trump tower and you couldn't walk in front of Trump tower. So I became, you know, increasingly enraged at having all these cops and secret service men. And you had a cross the street to go down Fifth Avenue. And one day I just thought, you know what? I'm just going to walk there. So I start to walk. Cap staffs, me and goes, you can't walk there. I said, I'm walking there. He said, you can't walk here. I get in this huge fight. He gets like, you know, disgusted. He goes off to yell at someone else. Another cop comes over. She says to me, you can't walk here. I said, I am walking here. Move. I'm going to walk here on this sidewalk. I said, I said, I am a citizen of New York. And not only am I a taxpayer, I am the taxpayer. I'm like a designated taxpayer in New York City. She said, you can only walk here if you are going to Gucci. So really, I'm but noce to me because I just walk past this place. I never look at it. There is actually a Gucci store on the ground floor of Trump Tower. So I said, I can only walk here if I'm going to Gucci. She said, that's right. I said, really? I said, I'm not the constitutional scholar. You seem to be. But what is that? The Fifth Avenue. or amendment? Thank you very much, good night. You've been listening to a conversation with Fran Lieberlitz. This program is recorded at the Morse Theatre in San Francisco and September 29, 2018. [Music] These broadcasts are produced by City Arts and Lectures in association with KQED Public Radio San Francisco. Executive producers are Kate Goldstein-Brier and Holly Mulder-Wollin. Production assistant is Alexandra Washkin. The post-production director is Nina Forfson. Norse Theatre technical director Steve Eckhardt. The recording engineer is Jim Bennett. The team music composed and performed by Pat Gleason. The founding producer is Sydney Goldstein. To attend a live program or for a list of upcoming guests visit our website at cityarts.net. That's cityarts.net.