Fr. Timothy Gallagher - Discernment of Spirits in Marriage

[Music] You're listening to Precena with the Pope, a podcast aimed at restoring confidence in marriage and family life. [Music] Hey there everyone, this is Monica and welcome to episode 64 of Precena with the Pope. In today's episode we have the privilege of speaking with Father Timothy Gallagher. Together we talk about discernment, consolation and desolation, and the true gift that it is for couples to experience the spiritual life together. We're so happy you're here with us, let's jump in. [Music] Thank you all so much for joining us today. We are so excited to have a guest, a special guest with us, Father Timothy Gallagher. He's an American Roman Catholic priest and he's an author of many bestselling books on the theology and spirituality of St. Ignatius of Loyola and other themes that go along with the spiritual life. Some of the books include discernment of spirits, discerning the will of God, and discernment of spirits for marriage, which is in particular we're excited to talk to you about. But Father, can you take a minute to maybe just share a little bit more about yourself? What drew you to St. Ignatius and his spirituality and what brought you to where you are today? Well what brought me to St. Ignatius was something that's only happened twice in my life and which I simply know is God's grace. Just a very strong attraction. It was not reasoned or arrived at step by step. But when I first heard about the spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius and this was when I was in my years of theology in seminary, I just felt an attraction. I just, something in me would not stop until I'd made the full 30-day retreat, which I was able to do just before Final Vows and Diaconate. And that was the beginning. The other thing that drew me that way was the founder of my community, the oblates of the Virgin Mary. And that's the venerable Bruno Lanterri, and I just fell in love with his life and spirituality. And actually my doctoral thesis combined these two things because I looked at the place of the Ignatian spiritual exercises in venerable Bruno's life and then the work that he gave us to do. So that was how it started. But specifically this work on discernment has arisen not because I ever planned it. But what has happened is that I can still remember the first time that I gave a very simple short presentation on Ignatius of Loyola's 14 rules for discernment, which are basically about making sense out of daily up and down spiritual experience in the spiritual life. And I knew and the people on the retreat knew that something electric had happened in the transmitting and receiving of that material. In fact that group then asked me to do this three times a year for their people and this spread eventually from retreats to seminars for spiritual directors and then for everyone, you know, for people in all vocations, including obviously the label occasion. What has driven it is the response of people when people learn this clear practical usable teaching of Ignatius and they realize that maybe for most of us for the first time I can now make sense out of what goes on in the daily experience of my spiritual life. And above all, I know how to identify and reject and overcome discouragement. What Ignatius calls spiritual desolation, then they can't get enough of it. And so that's why it's become a full-time occupation for me at this point. I love sharing it because from close to 40 years now of experience of speaking about this and writing about this and teaching it, I know the effect this has. Well, just add one more thing here. You mentioned the book, "Dessermin of Spirits and Marriage." The most heartwarming feedback that I have gotten on that book from married couples is that they'll say we're now talking together in a way we never talked before. Because now they have a language for this experience. Without Ignatius help, we don't even have words for it. Things like spiritual desolation, spiritual consolation, and then how to identify that and simple, clear, usable rules on what to do about it. I'll just, well, I'll never stop here. So I'm just going to add one more thing. No, go for it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I just taught this in a, it was in a parish last weekend up in Oregon. We had about 200 people on a Saturday and we went through as much of these rules as we could. And when people were approaching me just to speak afterwards, among them was a woman. And she just told me that she wanted to thank me for the teaching because she and her husband had reached a point where they just wanted to speak. They probably had been married several decades and more or more. And it was so refreshing for them to have something new to talk about and something on this level. So when you bring this into the married vocation, it can be a real treasure. That's beautiful. And for our listeners, this is kind of like an inside joke now, but I did mention to you that I started reading your books about five years ago. So around that time is when we had some career changes in the family. And I was a state home dad for about a year. And during my time as a stay home dad, I just I read the Lord really drew me in first the daily mass. And then from there, I started reading so many spiritual books. I jumped into that's when I first was really exposed to the theology of the body, love responsibility, a lot of St. John Paul. But but your books also came up as well. And up until that point, I had a very roller coaster of a spiritual life. Like I would go from such high consolation and then have huge drops. And that definitely affected our relationship as well, because there was times where I felt like, okay, I understand what the Lord wants in my life. And then suddenly, I seem like the week later, I was like, I have no idea what's happening. And I know that that's not a unique experience to me. So could you speak a little bit about what what discernment is. And and I know that's that's a lot to ask like to ask you to do that is a lot. But I'm just giving an introduction to that and so the people can kind of know what it is. Yeah, the starting point is that as we live the spiritual life, we all experience what you just said, Renzo, with our own nuances, but we all experience the same things. There are times of energy in the spiritual life when things are clear, when the mass draws us, scripture comes alive for us, the quest for holiness, new steps and living our vocations. But if we're honest, we'll also recognize that there are times when the opposite seems to happen. And for reasons that often enough, we don't even understand, you know, now the bottom just seems to drop out of that energy. And if I can say it reverently, such times we don't really want to pray. And maybe we don't pray or we're not very happy with the quality of our prayer. And all that energy for new steps in the spiritual life, just all of that seems to to wane. So these ups and downs are going on in the spiritual life of every man or woman who has ever loved the Lord Jesus for 2000 years. If you read the saints, you'll see it there. What Ignatius does, leaning on the churches, preceding tradition, which he absorbs. But then gifted by the spirit, he shapes a description of this experience in such a usable, simple, clear way. It's only 1231 words in the original, which is about three and a half double space pages. It's short. It's essential. It does need to be unpacked because it's very dense. And that's where people like me will write about it or speak about it. But it's clear. People can get it and they can apply it. I'll just give you one example. In Ignatius's second rule, he is speaking about people. Now in the first rule, he speaks about people who are far from God. So living far from God and in pretty confirmed serious sin. And he explores how the ones he calls the enemy and the good spirit. So just to clarify, enemy by that, he means Satan and his associated fallen angels. He means the wound in us, which we call concupacence as a legacy of original sin. And that harmful influence is around us in the world. It's just a classic triad. And by good spirit, he means obviously above all God himself who works in the hearts of his children, whom he loves. He means the good angels, which we don't think enough about. They have the power of God with them. The fallen angels don't. And then if there is a wound in us as a legacy of original sin, much more through baptism, is there in us a power of grace in the indwelling of the Trinity sanctifying grace, theological virtues, all the virtues, gifts of the Holy Spirit, and so forth. And then if there are harmful influences around us in the world, much more in a yes fallen, but redeemed and loved world, are there endless influences for good? So for example, the books that we read, that you're at, you know, the instruments of the good spirit and so forth. All right. What will the enemy and the good spirit do in differing spiritual situations? That's what Ignatius is getting at. Because if we know this, then we'll be able to recognize it in our own experience and know how to respond to it. So in the second rule, Ignatius tells us that when a person loves the Lord and is really trying, yes, the just one falls seven times a day and there's a penitential right at the start of every mass and a sacrament of confession and so forth. But when a person sincerely doesn't want sin and does love the Lord and wants to pursue the Lord living according to the Lord in our differing vocations, then Ignatius says what the enemy will try to do is to discourage the person. It's knowing at the joy the person is feeling saddening the person in the spiritual life. Making it seem impossible to go forward, you know, how many times have you tried this? How long has it ever lasted? You know yourself? You know this is not, you know, when I have groups in front of me, I ask people, have you ever heard those voices? Everybody smiles and we all have, there's absolutely no shame in that. That's just living the spiritual life and a fallen, redeemed and loved world. What matters is to know what's going on and know how to respond to it. All right, whereas the good spirit will give courage and strength and inspirations and so forth. So for example, the fact that you felt moved in that situation to start reading the things that you did, there's an action of the good spirit, you know, an inspiration which you accepted and look at the fruits of it, you know. All right, this woman said to me after we'd gone through this and this was a wonderful woman. Life dedicated to the Lord, clearly a rule to a person if I can say that. And she said, you know, I would hear this kind of thought or, you know, voice in my heart that would say, you're pretty mediocre. You're self-indulgent, you waste time. You don't reach out to people in the way that you should. Your prayer isn't worth very much. And I thought that was God's voice to discover that that was not God's voice, but simply the voice of the enemy trying to discourage her, changed everything in her spiritual life. And that's only one of the rules. You know, as a people absorb these rules, my title for this biblically is "Setting Captives Free" from Luke 4. When Jesus and the synagogue reads from Isaiah, "Spirit of the Lord is upon me. He has anointed me to preach good news to the poor, to proclaim liberty to captives and let the oppressed go free." This whole set of rules is a pathway to freedom from these discouraging, saddening lies of the enemy. Jesus didn't come that we should be held hostage to these tactics of the enemy. He came to set captives free. And what I'll say is, you know, this particular book applying them to marriage, as far as I know that's never been done before. And I tried to make it as concrete as I could by. I was about to say creating two characters in a sense, yes, there's no mark and end as individuals by that name, but not created in the sense that they reflect what I've seen for many, many years in many people's experience. And so you kind of see it lived out and then experience and then clarification in the light of the corresponding rule from St. Ignatius. And you know, it's only in marriage that you have the possibility for husbands and wives to go through this together. I can't recommend that too much. I know I want to be reverent in some situations and marriage that may not be possible or not easy, but it may be possible in many more marriages than we think. And wonderful things come out of it. Yeah, and it's interesting. So I think it's an introduction you refer to your book as a semi-navel, because like you mentioned, in this book there's a character Mark and Anne, and you kind of walk us through their story. And then throughout that, you're also guiding and applying the rules of discernment. And one thing that I thought was brilliant is that you're able to read through that and then point out in ways that you're similar to the characters without feeling personally attacked in any way. And it's just it's a very, it's eye opening and I think it defenses are down without even realizing that your defenses are down because you're not reading a textbook. You know, so that is a very fine observation and you're absolutely right on this. Let's say like last week I had 200 people in front of me or online, you know, it's many more than that. And people will let you into these places, these deep, sensitive places in their hearts because they know that Ignatius understands what's going on, that he reverences that experience. I'll repeat to people over and over again the truth of this. There is no shame in experiencing these discouraging lies and tactics of the enemy. There's no shame. In fact, I say this so often that I have people repeated with me, no shame. No surprise. Be aware, understand and take action. That those are the three steps in discernment that Ignatius lays out for us. Be aware, notice the spiritual experience that's going on in your heart and in your thoughts. Look at it until with Ignatius help for most of us, you can understand, okay, this is of the enemy, this is of the good spirit. And then take action accordingly, reject what is of the enemy so that it can never harm you, embrace and put into practice what is of the good spirit. As for example, you did in following that inspiration to do the reading, you know, that that you mentioned. So people open these places in their lives, these sensitive places because they know that they're loved there. They know that their reverence, the only way to present this teaching is with reverence. The kind of reverence that Jesus has, excuse me, for every wounded heart that comes to him, wounded heart, wounded moral life, wounded bodies. There's always that sensitive reverence for them. So this is a place where it is safe to enter into those deep places in our hearts and thoughts because we know we're going to be understood and we're going to be helped. Yeah, I think that that's so important because in times of desolation, so often we, like the cycle is isolation, right? Because we don't, we're not understanding why and we don't want to share with others because we might, we feel shame for feeling desolation when we feel separated from God. We don't talk about that enough. And then when you have that experience in marriage, then you actually start to isolate yourselves from one another. And I felt like in the story that you, that you shared that that was, that was part of their battle at the beginning was even the isolation from one another. And you said at the beginning, I think it's so important to make sure it's noted, but like to put words to this to be able to communicate these inner workings with one another with our spouse and with the Lord. It is so freeing and allows for reconciliation and it allows for that reconnection of relationship because we're no longer isolated and experiencing something all on our own. So I thank you for that in that storytelling because yeah, like you said, you can see yourself in that without feeling like you, you're like, oh, I am not the only one. And you said that too in a room of 200 people, everyone's nodding, but we look at each other like, oh, you too, I thought I was the only one. And you know, and it's freeing to not be isolated anymore. You know, at some point in every presentation, I'll say to people, I've been teaching this for 40 years. In every place with every kind of group, educational background, culture and so forth that you could ever imagine. And not one person has ever yet said to me, I don't know what you're talking about. Everybody laughs, you know. And so I tell them, we're all brothers and sisters in this. There are no pedestals, including I'm not standing in any pedestal. And I'll tell them that when I describe spiritual desolation and the ways that we can, they're not the most helpful that we can respond to it, you know, refrigerators and smartphones and all the rest. And I'll say at some point you're going to ask me, Father Gallagher, how come you can describe this so well? It's not just because I've read about it in books, you know, so we're all brothers and sisters. So that really takes a huge weight off of people, shoulders that this is another way I'll say it. If you go through these times of spiritual desolation, I should give an example of it. Let me do that before I go further. So let's, let's could be a man or a woman. Let's make it a woman and she's married. And she's married. She has, we'll say, two or three children. And the children are at school. They're of an age where they are at school. And so she works part time in a local high school as a special ed teacher. And let's say that last evening, she and her husband had a discussion about how she's dealing with one of their children who's struggling in a certain way. And she's doing the best that she knows how, but he's somewhat critical of what she's saying. And it doesn't entirely resolve well. And that's a bit of a burden on her heart. She knows they'll work through it, but there's a burden there. And then let's say maybe she didn't sleep all that well that night. And then the next morning, she just had a terrible time with one of her special ed students who was completely out of control and no discipline and the class was just a shambles. And so she has driven home now. And her husband is at work. The children are still at school. Another hour or so, she'll go to pick them up. And she sits alone in the kitchen with a cup of coffee there. And her Bible is there. For some time now, she has taken 10 or 15 minutes in that quiet hour in the middle of the day to read from scripture. She loves the Psalms. And oftentimes she'll take up one of the Psalms. And she sits there at the kitchen table and then she looks at the Bible and nothing in her wants to pick that Bible up. No energy for prayer doesn't feel God's closeness. And there on the table is also the smartphone. And everything in her wants to pick it up and maybe go on social media or just go through a few websites maybe look at something on YouTube. And also she has a friend who's always happy to talk with her. But she knows that their conversations always spiral downward and become gossipy. And so she tries not to speak with her. But when she feels like this, just feeling alone and discouraged, there's also that poll. Maybe I'll just call my friend. OK, so what's she experiencing here? In Ignatian terms, she is experiencing spiritual desolation. And that is a heaviness of hearts on the level of her spiritual life, her relationship with God. Now, the enemy brings that spiritual desolation into just a natural vulnerability, I would say. A few discouraging things have happened and she's physically tired. So there's a vulnerability there and the enemy will willingly work. In our just natural human physical and psychological vulnerabilities. And brings the spiritual desolation. So first thing to say, no shame that she's experiencing this. It's simply a tactic of the enemy. In fact, the fact that she's experiencing this is actually a good sign. It means that she's growing and the enemy is trying to discourage her. There's no surprise that she's experiencing this. It's happened before she can expect it to happen again. She can serenely just understand that this is part of what it means to live the spiritual life in a fallen, but redeemed and loved world. What makes all the difference here is, does she, can she live according to the wisdom that Ignatius is giving us? So can she be aware? Will she just blindly pick up the phone and spend her time on it and then finally go out to the car when she has to probably feeling a little worst? You know, then before she went on the phone, or will she say, wait a second. I love wait a second in this spiritual life and the discerning life because she's beginning to be aware that there's something that she needs to look at. You know what? This isn't right. And you know what? I'm going to pick up the Bible the way I always do. And she picks up and she opens it to, let's say Psalm 27, which she loves. The Lord is my light and my salvation. Whom should I fear, though an army and camp against me and so forth. And she reads that and just a gentle return of peace comes to her heart. And she reads for the 10 or 15 minutes, as usual, gets up from that, does some things that she needs to do around the house and heads out to pick up her children. Now, it's precisely on this daily level, which is so important because this is almost all of the spiritual life. The big decisions, for example, happen once or twice in life, our vocational choice, career issues and so on. But almost all of the spiritual life is lived on the level of the decision this woman makes sitting there in the kitchen alone. If it were a man, I'd have a 10 p.m. after a discouraging day at work or something. And we don't have to be defeated by the spiritual desolation. The good spirit is there, giving courage and strength. So there's an inspiration of the good spirit there when she's just about to pick up the phone, let's say, and something in her says, you know what, I really need to read one of the Psalms right now. And she pursues that with the fruit that we know. And you can see that this matters. If she is not aware, does not understand this simply for the tactic of the enemy that it is, and does not reject it, and does pick up the phone, the discouragement is just going to grow. The snowball will keep rolling down the mountain side. You can still stop it, but it gets a little harder to do. But if she can pick this up, be aware, name it for the tactic of the enemy that it is. Firmly set it aside and go right ahead with what she always does. The enemy not only is she not harmed, but she grows every time she does this. She's getting stronger in living the discerning life. And that's why I'll just say this now. And I'm going to say this, anybody listening to this conversation, you're a rule to a person. You wouldn't be listening to this if you weren't. I mean, with whatever weaknesses we all have, you love the Lord. You want to follow the Lord and serve the Lord and live the holy life. So you can expect all this to happen. Learn the 14 rules. I beg of you. Learn the 14 rules. Those of us listening who know them already, you know why I say this. And those of us who don't. If you do learn them, you'll know why I say this. And you will look back on the time that you spent learning these rules as one of the better choices you ever made in your spiritual life. And I say that now out of 40 years of seeing this in people's lives. Okay. Now, I've had so much to say that I don't even remember where I started. You had asked me something. One of, well, sorry, I want to build off a foot. You said so one of the any of it. I hope it's okay. But to jump from rule to rule, just with the questions. One of the things that I loved about learning about the rules was the rule five of never make a change in times of desolation because I know one thing I struggled with a lot was like was, you know, my spiritual life isn't where I wanted to be. I feel I'm in desolation and I'm making poor choices because of it or just not making any choices and being very passive. So then I would then make resolutions to like, I'm going to do all of these things and start changing my prayer life, changing my routines, which inevitably always led to me failing even more and then and finding myself in a cycle that I couldn't, I didn't really know how to break out of it and then learning that in times of desolation to just kind of stay the course and see it through and how have you seen that applied to marriages? Because I think that's something that happens a lot of times in marriages as well that we might feel like, oh, there's, you know, there's something wrong here. Let's change things up and but, you know, so could you speak a little bit about that? Yeah, I couldn't be happier that you raised rule five. Rule five is the rule that people never forget and you know, I'll say this to all of us who are participating here. If you were to forget everything else, you won't, you know, but everything else that Ignatius says about discernment, it's just a way of making a point. And I really, I beg of you, please never forget rule five. Rule five will get you safely through almost any spiritual darkness you may ever experience. So let's play it out. Eight words. When I have groups, I have people repeat these twice after me. So Ignatius says in time of desolation, like the woman at the, you know, at the table in the kitchen or any of us, in time of desolation never make a change. So I will say that again in time of desolation never make a change to amplify a little bit. What Ignatius is saying is this, when you are experiencing spiritual desolation, again, the woman at the kitchen table, never when you are in desolation change anything that you had planned to do in your spiritual life before that desolation began. So we can apply it to the woman at the table. She has the practice of reading scripture for, we'll say, 15 minutes in that quiet hour every day. And she's in desolation now. Of course the enemy is going to try to get us to change what we planned. to do because if she does give up the scripture reading then the desolation will just go on which is what the enemy wants. Whereas if she does pick it up in the way that she usually does probably that's going to be the beginning of the end if not the end completely of the spiritual desolation. So in her case, rule five applies perfectly. She's in a time of spiritual desolation. She's thinking of just not doing the reading for 15 minutes, the way she usually does. And so Ignatius says in time of desolation, never, there are no exceptions. Never make a change to anything you'd plan to do in your spiritual life before the desolation began. So let me give one or two examples just so that we really get a hold of this. You know, I can't tell you how many bad decisions in my life I have not made because of rule five. I am deeply, deeply grateful to it. So here's let's say the same woman. Still kind of the desolation lingering a bit and she has that honor calendar to go to confession at 4 p.m. of the coming Saturday. But the desolation sort of continues in prayer slipping a little bit and maybe there's a little more phone or whatever than will would be right and so forth. That's not be hard on her. We've all been there. Saturday morning comes. She looks at the calendar. She remembers confession at 4 p.m. But she finds herself thinking, you know what? Maybe in these circumstances, it's not the best time for me even to make the kind of confession that I'd really like to make might be better to wait till next Saturday. Okay, two questions for her. Are you in a time of spiritual desolation? Yes. In a time of spiritual desolation, are you thinking of changing a spiritual proposal you had in place before the desolation began? Yes. Whenever the answer to those two questions is yes, what does roll five tell her? Get yourself to confession at 4 p.m. exactly as you had planned before the desolation began and very likely that'll be the end of the desolation. Let me just do one more. I think it's clear at this point, but this is so important. Here's a man who is growing in a spiritual life and never made a retreat before. But a weak and retreat is announced after Sunday Mass one one day in the parish. And he's kind of intrigued by this. You know, I wonder, maybe that might not be a bad thing to try. Speaks with his wife. She encourages him. He signs up for it. It's maybe three months down the line. And he's really looking forward to it. And then all right, if it's the man, let's say something, you know, there's attention at work. It's not going well. It's getting it's just kind of difficult to be there these days. And that's kind of discouraging and whatever, whatever the natural vulnerability is, you know, and some spiritual desolation is floating in there. He usually prays at Rosary app on the way home, but he's just gotten so discouraged that he just puts music on and he. He says night prayer. He started saying night prayer from the liturgy of the hours at 10 p.m. It's kind of his way of spiritually ending the day with a little examination of conscience. But that's been slipping as well. And now it's a week away from the retreat. And he finds himself thinking, you know, way I am right now in the spiritual life, I might not get very much out of that retreat. You know, it might be better. I'm just going to send an email and say that I'm not able to make it and I'll look for another retreat. All right, two questions. Is he in a time of spiritual desolation? Yes. In a time of spiritual desolation is he thinking of changing a spiritual proposal that he had in place before the desolation began. Yes. In rule five, what does Ignatius tell this man to do when that weekend comes in desolation? Time of desolation never make a change. Get yourself to that retreat exactly as you had planned. And probably that's going to be a wonderful new step in your spiritual life. Of course, the enemy doesn't want you to do that. You know, so I could go on and on about that. But that's, that's so important. I just beg of anyone listening. Please don't forget rule five. Learn more about it if you can because it is a great friend on the spiritual journey. One woman told me that she and her friends say to each other, I take the fifth. That's great. That's awesome. Now, if I thought this is a, this is more for personal for monoconite. Well, personal for the ministry work we do. So I'm also, we're also involved with the youth ministry at our parish. And I find there's times where we plan a specific event, a spiritual night, something I do. Then like as the night gets closer and monoconial tests this, like I get intense thoughts and feelings of like, you know, we shouldn't do this. We should change the plan. And I try, and I think I'm mostly time I end up saying the course. I'm like, this is, I'm going to leave it alone. But sometimes I do change things just because I'm like, you know, they're, you know, I don't know if this is right. I don't know. And I start overthinking everything. And just from hearing you, because usually I've applied rule five to my personal spiritual life, but could it also be applied for ministry work and apostate work as well? Absolutely. Sure. In fact, you know, in the work that I do, I'm very frequently setting off, heading off to an airport for the next event or whatever it is. And I'll feel that same thing. You know, why did I get myself into this and other airports and, you know, all the rest of it? I've actually come up with a term for that. And I call that pre event desolation. And I think that that term is very helpful. So there's no shame that you feel that, of course, the enemy doesn't want something that a good thing that's going to happen. So you can expect to feel that. And actually when I am discerning in the way Ignatius invites us to be discerning, that is, I'm aware of what's going on. And I can name it as the desolation of the enemy that it is. I actually have come to see that that's a good sign actually. You know, if the enemy tries to discourage me ahead of time, it's because something good is going to happen. And when I see that, oftentimes that just breaks the whole power of it. Application to marriage. Talk to your wife, share what you're feeling. You know, and wife speak to your husband when you're going through it. You have a help right in your home that no other location has. And it's a beautiful thing when husband and wife, you know, I remember one couple telling me that they had kind of a pact that when one of them realized that let's see, he was in a spiritual desolation, he would text his wife. And she would text back and she'd be praying for him. And they just would do this with each other, you know, when one was feeling this or the other. It's a very beautiful thing to do. Yep. So definitely it can apply to any good work that we're doing. Sure. No shame. No surprise. Be aware. Understand. Take action. Yeah. So we've talked quite a bit about desolation. And can we, can we maybe talk about consolation too? Like how can we, how can we recognize consolation versus versus emotional excitement, right? Like sometimes we can feel positive feelings and attribute that to a spiritual affirmation maybe or something. But I do think that there's great question. There's something important. There's an important distinction between consolation and yeah, emotional excitement. Yeah, because we've met, we've met plenty of people who are things are out of the Lord just because they feel good, they feel good about about it. Yeah. Well, you touch on a couple of key things there. If Ignatius spends more of his rules on spiritual desolation, then he does on spiritual consolation. It's because for most of us, we struggle more with spiritual desolation than with spiritual consolation. So he's very practical and he gives us, I think the, the richest set of tools anywhere in our Catholic spiritual tradition for responding to it. But obviously if you ask what is primary in the spiritual life, what God does or the discouraging lies by which the enemy tries to weaken our energy, both matter obviously, but very clearly what God does has the absolute primacy and God only does one thing and that is to pour out gifts of love. And spiritual consolation is one form of grace that God can give us. If spiritual desolation is a heaviness of heart on the spiritual level, spiritual consolation is an uplifting movement of the heart on the spiritual level. So uplifting movements, joy, hope, gratitude, etc., ex-confidence and so forth on the spiritual level. Now to get back to the distinction that you raised on Monica about, we'll call it spiritual desolation, spiritual consolation. So on the level of our relationship with God as a grace from God. And then in my writing, I call it the other form non spiritual desolation, our consolation. Non spiritual doesn't mean necessarily bad at all. It just means it's on the natural level. level. So examples of healthy, non-spiritual consolation. You listen to some beautiful music and you just feel your spirits pick up. You get some exercise and you just feel good. You enjoy a meal with friends or with family and you feel kind of an uplift of heart, chaste and Christ-centered love between a man and a woman. In people of faith that's very close to the spiritual level. The joy of parenthood, working hard at a project and it goes well and you feel good about it. Being out with nature with the beauties of nature and we could go on with this. There is a whole array of healthy non-spiritual consolations that God has built into our lives and intends that we enjoy. But spiritual consolation is on another level. So just as non-spiritual desolation when we're tired or discouraged creates a vulnerability for the enemy to bring spiritual desolation in. So the woman has the difficult conversation where their husband doesn't sleep well, the difficult morning teaching. So there's a non-spiritual desolation there now and that's a space into which the enemy may try to bring. Spiritual desolation on the other hand when there is healthy non-spiritual consolation. Very often that will be the space into which God will infuse the grace of spiritual consolation. So if there's an example in St. Teraz, it's in the last months of her life and her sister helps her. She's still able to walk at this point and she helps her to rest just to get her out of the buildings into the courtyard of the monastery and underneath the non-skept hands and underneath the tree in front of them. They stop and they see a mother hand with the wings outstretched and the little heads of the chicks peeping out from under the safety of their mother's wings. And Teraz stops and she just enjoys looking at a charming scene from nature. So if I may say it reverently here she is experiencing non-spiritual consolation. It's just the enjoyment of seeing a charming scene from nature. She tells her sister later as she gazes at this scene it dawns on her that this is the image that God uses in the Bible to describe his faithful, protecting love for his people. Jerusalem, "Half, and I would have gathered you as a mother hand, gathers her chicks under her wings." So often in the Psalms hide me in the shelter of your wings. And then a warm surge of gratitude stirs in her heart as the scene before her speaks to her of God's faithful, protecting love for his people. So reverently at this point God has infused the grace of spiritual consolation into a wonderful experience of non-spiritual consolation. This is actually a third step because it further dawns on her that what she's seeing is the image not only of God's love for his people as a whole but it's the story of her own life. That's what he's done for me. And then her tears fall so abundantly that she can't even talk. And hours later that evening she explains to her sister what happened. Their sister wrote it down which is why we have it. So very often now the conclusion is if we are finding ourselves tired and discouraged and if and then some of that's normal in life. But if we find that it's a pretty consistent pattern I'm always feeling kind of discouraged, always feeling kind of worn out, then maybe one of the best things you can do for your spiritual life not only as a good steward of your humanity which we're called to be but one of the best things you can do for your spiritual life is to do something about that. Maybe a man's working too hard and just not getting enough sleep etc. Respond because as you eliminate the non-spiritual desolation you make the enemies task much much harder. And on the other side a certain amount of healthy non-spiritual consolation is a wonderful thing not just for our humanity but for our spiritual lives because that will very often be a space into which God will infuse the grace of spiritual consolation. Can I say more? I don't know how long I've been talking. Yes please. All right. We're learning one more thing here but you're in charge of time here. I don't know if anyone's seen the documentary on the Carthusian monks, the French Carthusian monks, it's called "Integrate Silence". It's well worth watching. It's not like a regular movie but it's almost more like praying or being unretreat. But you see it's a powerful movie. I remember when I saw it in a theater. All of us left that theater knowing that we'd seen authentic spiritual experience. I don't think any movie left me feeling happy the way that one did because I knew it. I knew that well in any case you see for two hours and 40 minutes you see the austere penitential life of these monks. You know very little conversation, a rigorous lifestyle, frequent returns to the church to pray the liturgy of the hours together and then their different work and task that they have. But Saint Bruno built into their rule that once a week they would break that silence and the monks would gather together and go out walking outside the monastery in free conversation. For a few hours once a week they would do that. And in the movie if you watch it you'll see them head out. So they're high up in the French Alps. It's a winter scene. Everything's covered with snow, the slopes of these mountains. And they're dressed in their heavy white Carthusian habits with hoods. And I remember when this happened in the movie I looked around. Everybody was smiling in the theater. To the surprise and delight of everyone you see them. They're up at the top of a rise and they sit down on the snow, kick up their heels, wrap the habit around their heels and go sliding down the snow. And they get down to the bottom and they're all laughing and brushing the snow off. Now you can see they're going to go back to another week of their life with a whole new energy. Healthy spiritual consol- healthy non-spiritual consolation. Just enjoying being with each other and being a little goofy and so on. You can see the energy for the spiritual life that's there. So that's another corollary of this. A certain amount of that is a great blessing in the life. That's beautiful for comparing that to marriage because I know like we've heard other people and we've even mentioned like you have to you know have to date your spouse finding ways to do things together. You should enjoy your time together. And sometimes you and I don't like I don't know if we've ever experienced this but you kind of get you feel attention of like should we be praying more together like should we pray more together or should we go on a day or and there feels to be an either or type mentality where I like the way that this really blends both because the healthy non-spiritual will lead to healthy consolation that is actually of the Lord. And I just I like to be able to like that's how I'm thinking of what you're saying of sometimes if if a relationship seems to be in a bad place or or could be in a better place to not think that you know us focusing on our relationship excludes the Lord in any way but actually could be in a way that is inviting him in. You know what I'd say there is a Ignatius response to that would be and this is always the way you learn whether you make your best choice. I think tonight we really should just spend some time together. You know rather than I don't know maybe go to church and pray together this is have dinner together whatever experience and then review of experience. So you make your best choice tonight we really just should spend some time together and then review it you know I don't mean you know the example just enjoy the evening but at some point you might just want to in conversation together say you know I think we really should be doing this from time to time because look what happened you know just we're closer together now and we were able to talk about things in a way that we really need to and we just enjoyed it and came back with new energy you know to the family and the children and the work that we have. You know I'd say the fundamental reason why this conversation is important for married people not only for married people obviously but there's a specific way in which this applies to marriage because you have your spouse you have your spiritual other right there in the house with you in a way that no one else does is that if you get serious about the spiritual life and I'm going to guess that anybody listening to this conversation is serious about the spiritual life where you wouldn't have this interest. If you get serious about the spiritual life and you try to have a real daily routine of prayer individually and together and a life of the sacraments that strengthens you and and fits well with the circumstances of your life and you're trying to live your vocation as husband and wife as father and mother as you relate to your children you're going to find that the kind of experience we've been talking about both spiritual consolation and spiritual desolation is going to happen and that's simply as I said before I'm I again I don't remember maybe I didn't ignite this. You can see he's not adding anything to the spiritual life at all. He's just helping us understand what's been always happening. Just, that's huge because that sets his, sets captives free to respond in a new way. All of this is going to happen. And if we're not aware of this, if we don't have this formation, it's very easy, let's say attention arises between the two of you. And you find yourself thinking, "I thought we were getting closer together," it seemed like this was so wonderful, all this prayer, and spiritual life, but look at where we are, and nothing's changed. What's the point of all of this? Now, that's that biting, discouraging action of the enemy. If you don't, if you're not aware of it, don't understand it for what it is and don't reject it, you could easily just pull back. Because those times are going to come. No shame, no surprise, etc. But if you do have this formation, if you do know these rules, and that's why I beg of anyone listening, learn them. That's my deepest message here, really. Learn them, and you are able to understand like the woman at the early afternoon at the kitchen table. What's going on? Then not only will these times not harm you, not only will you regress, and just unhappily say, well, I guess mediocre is all we can ever hope for. Other people can be holy, but not us. Not only will that not happen, but every time you discern, in this case, the enemies discouraging lies and reject them, your marriage is getting stronger. Your individual spiritual lives are getting stronger, and together, if you can walk this together, especially you're getting stronger as you live your marriage as well. So that's where all of this leads, and that's why I'm so happy that you've wanted to speak about this. - I'm so grateful for your way of explaining, and then also having these examples for us, because I think sometimes this married spirituality can feel mysterious. Like I'm searching, and I'm searching, and I haven't quite figured it out. It's like a puzzle, and sometimes we might feel like God isn't giving us enough answers, or the church hasn't given us enough guidance, or we feel like we're searching and in searching, and it simplifies it for us. That this is not something that we have to discover. This is what we are living. And it's really about awareness versus, yeah, like finding something that's out there somewhere. And it's here, it's really about that awareness and that understanding so that we can then discern and make decisions and act. So I'm so grateful for that, for your explanations of that, because I really think that that makes it so livable. We are living it, but now we can be free, to live that and be aware of it. - Now, as we learn them, one question I have is, what's the correct way that spouses can go about pointing out to each other, or raising the possibility that a spouse is in desolation? So if Monica is struggling, and I see that she's struggling, and she's sharing with me, but isn't able to use the language of desolation, is it, at what point do I bring it up as a possibility, like, hey, you might be in desolation right now. And then we talk about the rules together, like, let's just what we have to do next. How have you seen that play out, and like, well, how would you advise couples in going about that? - Well, I think the foundation of being able to do that with any fruit is that each one of the spouses be trying to live this individually, so that we really can't share this with other people, unless it's something that we're trying to live ourselves. So I'd say that's sort of the foundation of any help that one is gonna give to the other, but as I keep saying, you have a help for it that nobody else has, because you're not alone with it. If you can walk together in this, then it's so much easier. So having said that, each one is trying to live this. The only way that we would approach a spouse, and say, try to help the spouse with the experience, it has to be done humbly. There's no pedestal. I'm strong, but look at you struggling. None of that can be there. And it has to be done not as a spiritual director. You're not trying to be formal spiritual directors for each other, your spouses, friends, sharing a life in the Lord and sharing a common vocation. And so if it's done that way, then it's gonna be received and it's gonna be helpful. I remember one time that I was in spiritual desolation had been for a few days, and it was partly my own, I was provincial at the time, and so there was a lot of international travel, and I'd get back pretty tired from that. And what I was doing unwisely in retrospect, I would go off to a retreat house and just spend a few days there to kind of get my energy back. And maybe that was true, but I was too alone when I was already feeling pretty worn out. And one of those times, I had planned to have dinner with a priest friend and I honored it. And so just as friends do, I was just telling him what I was experiencing. And not trying to be a spiritual director, but just a friend, he said, you know, sounds like you're in spiritual desolation. Bingo, a big light went off. Oh, okay, with his help just as a friend, I was able to get to that understand where I was not able to get there on my own. And it changed the whole thing. So, my husband's and wife's, I think, can be very, very helpful for this. Recognizing that this is normal experience, both will go through it in different times in different ways, it's normal, but you can help each other with it. - Yeah, and I think that's just as you said, as a friend knows you well, right? Your spouse knows you well. So we can sometimes speak to one another from an outside perspective, but also from an intimate perspective of like, I know you well and I know how you normally think. I know how your spirituality normally is and you know, something's off here. And sometimes when we're the ones stuck in the middle of it, we don't see it. So it is, it's just so helpful to have those, those holy friends in our lives, but as spouses we have that special gift of, having that as part of our vocation. - You do. - It may be Ignatius actually says this in his ninth rule that one of the reasons why God will permit us at times to go through spiritual desolation is because in a very salutary blessed way, it leaves us humble. So when you know that the last, let's say, when I know I'll say it of myself the last time I was in desolation, I struggled to even want to pray and I headed to the refrigerator for the third time and so forth, you know, all of those kinds of things that we do, then I'm not gonna be standing on any pedestal when I see somebody else, you know, in that situation. I'll be your brother, you know, you can be brothers and sisters, or as you say spouses to each other. The more you live the discerning life, I think the humbler you become. In a very, very blessed way. Remember that for Ignatius, that humble space, that rich, biblical space of humility is the space that opens us to every other virtue. - That's beautiful. - Yeah, so there's so many questions that work. - Well, this is, I guess you can edit this. Yeah, how long have we been going here? - We're close to, we're close to, yeah, probably in our run. - Yeah, we're close to, yeah, we're close to, we're close to, yeah, probably in our run. - Honestly, we could listen to you. Just, 'cause there's so much wisdom that you're giving us. And even having read the books and read the rules, I don't remember all of them off the top of my head. And it just, it does spark a fire of like, yeah, I want to integrate this back into my spirituality because there's just so much there. It's so rich. So thank you for sharing that wisdom. And especially sharing the examples of how it can enhance our shared spirituality. 'Cause I don't think, as much as we knew them, not if we, they're not fully part of our shared spirituality. And then you see that, that could help our, in the same way that we communicate about, you know, difficulties throughout the day, with the kids, with work, giving us the languages to share about the difficulties within our own spiritual lives. It just, it gives us that language like you were mentioning at the beginning. - Yeah, no, I definitely feel reinspired too, to be living this more deeply. So I appreciate so much your time. You know, I almost forgot that like, we're sitting here recording for other people to listen. - Yeah. - I was like, "Thank you so much for this, "this time this evening, just for us." - You're very welcome. You're very welcome. - Yeah. - That's been very nice just to meeting you. - Thank you. Can you share with the listeners? Because we're, I'm remembering that they exist now. Where can they start to find some of your resources or what would you recommend? They've listened to this and they said, "Okay, this isn't something I've heard "before or I heard about it once." And I, or wherever they are in their journey of discernment and learning about the 14 rules. What can they do next? What can we do after pressing clay and moving on? - Sure. Well, I would think in this case, because our context here is marriage. Probably a good starting point would be the book, discernment of spirits and marriage that we've been talking about. It's a short book. It's easily run and I think it would It would help anyone individually, husband or wife who reads it. If there is the possibility of sharing that, I think you would find some really wonderful things happen if people do that as a couple. I have a website which is just FR for Father, frtimethygalagra.org and all of my resources are available through that. If people want to go into it further, then I would say probably read the book, The Discern Men of Spirits and Ignation Guide for Everyday Living, which will take you a little more formally through each of the 14 rules. I have done podcasts on this, which are I think a great way to get into it while you're driving or exercising or getting a meal or whatever it is. You find these on a wonderful Catholic app, Descerning Hearts. Descerning Hearts. It's a free app. You can just download that. You can listen to it. There's also a website, DescerningHarts.com. You can listen to this through the computer as well. Let's say for example, if you download it on the phone or a tablet, when it opens up, just tap on Spiritual Formation and then a list of speakers will come up, tap on my image there and it will take you right to a whole series of podcasts. The first series is the one that is called The Discern Men of Spirits and it will take you through the complete set of 14 rules. I think it's 16/2 hour podcasts. I've also done this as -- and that's available everywhere. Go on iTunes or Google Play or anywhere. You'll Spotify whatever you'll find it. If people use Formed from the Augustan Institute, it's also available on that. If people want to learn visually, then I did this as a 10 part series on EWTN, 10/45 minute talks and the DVD of that is available through EWTN or through my website. So that would be another tool. Really all the tools to learn that are there. The book The Discern Men of Spirits has a reader's guide if someone wants to take a group through it and of course the podcasts and the visuals. Those are being used in a lot of places. So it's very -- I'll make sure to put all the links in the show notes. Any listeners that feel inspired and feel -- I believe it is the good spirit, drawing us to learn more. I'll put the show notes in there and hopefully they can -- like you said, the resources are there now, so the balls in our court. When you share this, people will love you because they know immediately what you're talking about and for the first time for most of us, they're beginning to understand the shame drops away confusion and a wonderful path. And you know, it's more important than ever now because there is so much less support around us. It gets more and more important to have greater, more and more personal formation and understanding our spiritual experience. It's very timely in a way that I could have not have foreseen when I first began working on this. Well, you need to get to bed. Well thank you guys so much for listening. We're so glad that you're here with us. Be sure to tune in next week and we'll see you at the next episode. [Music]