Formulating Pet Food For Racing Dogs | SOP Ep. 122 - Dr. Tim Hunt

Welcome to "Speaking of Pets." I'm Dr. Alice Navata-Nichoroman, a board-certified veterinary dermatologist, and I'm not. I'm Janet Navata-King, the doctor's sister of podcast co-host, pet owner, rescuer, and lover. We're here to provide pet owners with science-based information to help them be the best pet parents they can be. Here's today's episode. Three to just for you and your pets. Hey, everyone. Welcome to the show. Janet, we have not only a fabulous guest, but someone so interesting. And I know we're going to learn a lot about two things. Well, probably more than two. One, how in the world could you start your own pet food company? That's number one. And not that that's not enough, but what is the iodide rod? What is that about? I looked that up today and I'm already confused. So we have Dr. Jim Hunt, who even though he's a Michiganer and we're buck-eyes, we still love you, Dr. Hunt. Just this once. Just this once. Dr. Jim is the creator of Dr. Tim's pet food company. And I'm just fascinated by how you can make your own pet food. And how you got started and what inspired you. So welcome, Dr. Tim. It's such a pleasure to meet you and have you on the show. Thanks. Thanks, Alice. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. And it's good to have a sunny day. When I was reading your bio, Dr. Tim, I read and I love this that you started your own pet food company with a cement mixer in your garage. That is correct. You know, people that are trying to figure out a way to get everything to fit in 24 hours a day and you're able to get it mixed up, right? So, yeah, the food business was not anything I envisioned getting into in that I did not enjoy nutrition coming out of that school. Yes, that's a rule are terrible about nutrition. They're not they're not taught anything about it. I was no different in school. You have to memorize all the vitamins that pass tests and stuff. You don't really understand the whole concept. And it took me getting into racing sled dogs to start to find an interest in passion into nutrition and how we can better serve dogs by feeding them what I think is properly. So, can you give us a timeline like you became a vet then started racing dogs like how did all that come together? Sure, I graduated in 89 and I started there. Me too. Yes, but I'm older than you because I had another career for 10 years. Oh, I was a person. And you admit to it. I do. I do. No, I've always been in school throughout. I never had an off time like with another career. So once I got into vet school in 85, I finished in 89 and then when I got out, I found over time. I really didn't enjoy working for other people. So I decided to open my own practice up here in the Upper Peninsula. I called up a pass by the mind who was from up here and suggested the idea. She went for it. We both had about 10 grand and open a storefront. When we opened a storefront up here, we had no clients. They set my sister and her brother and their friends and then we had to drum up as many people as we can. I did tons of school programs and all sorts of things. I was just to say in the area where some sled dog kennels of 80, 90 dogs and I thought, wow, what what better clients to have than people with a lot of dogs like that. You can, you know, instead of 80 clients, I could do one client with 80 dogs. But little did I know. Mushers as a rule, those are the people that have sled dogs are broke. Okay. And I ended up bartering a lot. Okay, working for them. Taking care of things and I would trade it for like winter camping trips or dogs or whatever might be rides. And I found that I really enjoyed working with these sled dogs. And after the first year doing that, I ended up with four dogs and then eight and then also an out racing around 95. And again, short races and then it slowly branched into more and more over time. But as I got into the sled dog racing, I thought being young and fit and everything I would kick all these old guys asses, but it didn't work that. I got smoked despite being able to write up a hill or a mountain or something. These guys would just trowel shoot because of the genetics they had in their bloodlines, the nutrition they had that they supplied to the dogs and the training that they had. So those three parts, you know, I started looking at, okay, what can I do differently? Genetics, you have to buy dogs. I was broke training means more time. Which I could put in because it cost me anything but time to slept less. And the nutrition, I started to look at why these guys were feeding what they're feeding and they weren't necessarily nutritionists. There were people that had a lot of raw meat with kibble and other things to get this high end performance out of a dog. And honestly dogs to me are the second best athlete, short of adult. They really can do amazing things. Today's episode is sponsored by Dr. Tim's pet food. Learn more at drtimz.com. And as I started to break apart what others were feeding. I mean, these are folks. And again, don't take me wrong with high school educations feeding dogs. Sure ways they've been doing it forever with dogs that just looked amazing. So as that went along the Mary trail, I thought, you know, I'll add this. I'll add that. I'll add this to the mix. Pretty soon I had a base kibble with 12 ingredients going into a plus raw meat. We would go through a thousand pounds of raw meat a month plus everything else because we had a kettle of about 40 dogs at that point. And one day my wife walked in and she said, what are you doing with all this stuff? Why don't you just put it all together and make a kibble. And I never really thought of it that way. And I thought, well, why not? So I started looking into it, hired an nutritionist to work with me. And then we came out with our first formula. And then the next trick was to actually have it made successful. What I mean by that is you can have anything made, but to keep it consistently made. And then to fine tune it took some time. So that was an old four. We came up out with a first recipe, which was the momentum. And then we kind of moved on from there. So that's kind of in a nutshell, how I got into this. And over time, as we saw how the food for porn. Then took it down to different lifestyles. I'm not a big life stage guy. A lifestyles. What a dog does for a living to me is what's important. And then I feed accordingly. So, you know, a beagle might be doing, you know, one thing hunting rabbits and they put a lot of time in the rest of the time to sit down the couch versus a sled dog or whatever it might be. So according to the lifestyle, I like to kind of formulate a food based on that. So we have a round pen going into a square hole. That doesn't work. And brother have a square pen going into a square. You know what I love most about that is you are creating something that you see results with. And because you're seeing it. It's a one on one. It's not some obscure corporate big corporate pet food company that doesn't know really how the dogs are doing. You see what I'm saying. It's more personal is what my impression. Yeah, it is. And early on, you know, it was not a lucrative thing. It cost a lot of time effort and sweat equity. Yeah. Why we did that. But once we got the formulas clicking, we were able to have five teams win the I did a rod in 10 years on the food and they bought the food. Again, these are, you know, top notch moshers, but they chose to feed the food. And then we went from there. So to see the proof in the pudding. Right. Really wonderful. And then from there, we, you know, brought in different types of variables with the diets of further improve it and so on, which is always fun to tinker. But, you know, I get bored easy. I love that when you, it was kind of sounds like an old boy network. And here's this young guy coming out of that school that really is, yeah, quote unquote highly educated one. That's a tough barrier to break. I bet you learned a lot. Oh, I did. I learned more from going up to Yellowknife Northwest Territories on how to feed a dog as I did from that school. You know, I learned more from some small village in Alaska than I ever did in vet school. And to me, how it's done and then seeing the results right front you as you're traveling and then finishing a race or whatever it might be really puts it directly, you know, in line with what you're hoping to achieve knowing that there's not just one variable, not just nutrition as other parts to it. But really what you put in should come out looking good at the back end of the dog, right? Sure. So if the food is working properly for that dog in that lifestyle. It's all about the poop. You know, it's got to be good. So did I go through 12, 13, 14,000 calories a day? Okay. That's like 19 big backs or something. with the crazy amount of calories, you cannot supply that. all in kibble. It just doesn't work to get that kind of volume to a dog. But the base of the diet is the kibble. And then we can replicate that in the normal world with sporting dogs with the kibble only. What's the most common injury you see? Is it ACLs? I'm just talking to a veterinarian point of view in the I did a ride. Oh, I rarely see ACLs. Actually, in all the years of being a vet 37, I think I've seen four ACLs in a sled dog. They just don't tear their ACLs. Usually some crazy accident that happens. They're just built well. And they're made to do it over many years. You know, they've been selected. So these things don't happen. But there are procedures these days where you can fix the knee and they can go back into racing. I've seen that happen too. So what are you talking about injury? Are sled dogs? I'm thinking Huskies. Am I wrong? Sled dogs are a conglomerate of many breeds put together. Siberian Huskies, you get greyhorns weighing the distance. You have village dogs and other speedy dogs that were put in. And it really is a mix of many things. But the baselines typically come out of northern Canada or Alaska. And then they have other thing or Scandinavia for that matter too. Norway has a lot of good dogs. So geners wise, they've been chosen over many years to have the best performing dogs that have the most endurance and the best eaters. It's all about eating to finish and I did a rod race for the dogs and the person and then good feet and so on. So they know their job, right? They know what they're supposed to do and what they like to do. They enjoy running. If you've ever seen a start of a dog race or you're even leaving a checkpoint and that's in between the start and the finish, the dogs usually get really wrapped up and off they go. That's what they've been bred to do. It's serious. People don't use force to make these dogs do what they do. Wow. It's serious business. Is it the same route every year? It altars out and even north or south route from typically outside of Anchorage to know there's a north route. That was this year and the next year will be the south route. And then in years where there is no snow outside of Anchorage, then they start in Fairbanks. So where the human is on the sled? Is there a weight limit? No, there's no weight limit. There's only there's so much gear that gets sent out ahead of you. They position all your resupplies at roughly 25 different checkpoints and then where you stop and on rest is up to you. There's only three mandatories and the rest is chosen by the musher as to their strategy or what happens. And then the strategy for taking longer rest may denote that you place more supply there or if you have long camping trips in between checkpoints for that matter, where the supply might be sent there and then the musher comes through, picks up what they need and then in you zone or stops and stays at the checkpoint. It all depends on the person strategy. As to weight, you know, many of the winners tend to be small people that don't weigh a lot. They're not real big. There's one guy Rick Swenson who was a big guy. He's over six feet. He won five times. But that's the rarity. Usually, they're smaller like people because obviously it's the weight the dogs are pulling all the gear, the sled, the person. And the part that is the part that slows down the whole regular world is the person. Okay, so figures. Yeah. There have been, you know, people that are super athletic when the race and others that weren't, but there tends to be more of a difference towards athletic people these days. You know, as you get along the trail of the race on so many years, different things can make a big difference of change in booty style. That's the thing they put on their feet, like the material types of sleds, types of runners for the sleds. Nutrition made a big change in the '90s and so on. So it's always going to be cold. Yeah. There's no bad weather. There's only bad gear. Well, now, okay, you mentioned nutrition changes in the '90s, like more fat, more protein. What, what was the big change there? It's the fat and the kibble bases. So, I was made huge differences with the race early on and with actually catching up to what the needs of these dogs were in Yukonuba specifically. I was working with different racers that were in the race and they actually watched and learned from the dogs what was happening. And then they implemented it as to trying to find a diet that would work well. In these situations, knowing there's so much meat being fed, but that was the, that was the rarity. Many foods were out there and people would use them. They would have a good name, but they wouldn't perform well in that instance because of the carbohydrate load was much too high. And they couldn't process that. So as you ask about fat, these dogs run on fat. It's amazing how they can turn their whole metabolism over to fat, almost 70% by the time they're a third of the way into the race. And when we pump it all this fat through the dog, you know, that furnace is just running on those calories. And you need to be able to bring calories in that are usable. So if you look at fat protein and carbohydrates, which are the three nutrients in food, fat is your most chlorically dense and most utilizedable. Also takes up the same space as one gram of protein, which has half as many calories. You need protein, but you don't want to fuel your house with protein. That's like burning the shingles on the house. You want to burn fuel oil in the house to keep it heated. You want to burn the wood that makes the frame. And that's the carbohydrates. So as you try to look at how to compose or comprise, I should say, a diet, then you start to look at how this animal is fueled, how you bring in the different lines of nutrients. Are there different nutrients in that subheading that work better? Let's say does beef fat work better than pork fat or chicken fat in certain situations and they do. Okay. So with different types of situations, we run into temperature wise, we might encourage one over the other, but again, the base kibble brings in all the nutrients to balance it out. So it's an intricate play. It really is just what people do. It amazes me to learn all that. I mean, like the differences in beef fat versus pork fat, would you say that dogs that do agility need performance diets similar to those two or is mushing totally different because it's more of a longevity thing than ability. Yeah, you look at your type of muscles. You have fast twitch and slow twitch. Okay. So when you look at agility, you're looking more fast twitch in that the type of diet you want to bring into the mix might not be as heavily laden as the sled dogs with the fat. Okay. But you need it because you can really increase what's called their VO2 max. Okay. That's their oxygen metabolic rate, let's just say, and you can actually improve on that with the level of fat in the diet. So you can improve your VO2 max in dogs by just feeding a higher fat food to begin with let alone exercise. And when I finally figured that out in the light turned on after listening to someone much smarter than myself and actually implemented it, I was able to shave a month off my training curve with my dogs by staying on the same food year round and already having already with their attributes due to the higher fat food. Here's something we love about Dr. Tim's pet food. Every formula starts with a question. Does this actually help the animal not just look good on a shelf? Dr. Tim has spent decades as a working vet and that experience shows up across the entire product line. Whether your dog is a little overweight and needs a healthy balance food to help shed a few pounds or could be a picky eater who won't touch their breakfast without Dr. Tim's vagabond freeze-dried toppers or just a regular couch companion who deserves real nutrition in every bowl. Speaking of pets is committed to bringing you science-based information and partners that align with that mission. And Dr. Tim's is a great example of nutrition done right. For every pet, not just the athletic ones. Head to Dr. Tim's pet food to find the formula that fits your pet's life. Are there veterinary nutritionists that specialize in mushing in performance? Yeah, there's a few out there that have worked and have worked with them off non-arly rentals. This one we worked with Karina. These are probably the pinnacle of all the knowledge and sled dogs. Um, Greg, um, right? Yeah. I know, Greg. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, Joe Wockishlag, Cornell is another one. Yeah. So there are some out there that definitely have worked with it and put a lot of effort into it. And from that, they've led some very successful careers and opened the doors to a lot of knowledge on these dogs. I mean, Janet, this is like a whole different area of veterinary medicine. I seriously don't see Olympics. What? Yeah, well, yeah, Olympics for dogs, you know what I mean? It's like, wow. What I was thinking the other night, my guilty pleasure is watching the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders making the squad, okay? Okay, so thanks for sharing having said that. It makes like if you get to be the lead dancer So do that is it a big competition with the dogs to be the lead dogs? Yeah, oh great question lead dogs. Are they born or are they created? Oh, I think they're born They have a certain drive that others don't and they're just Unstoppable with their heart. Okay, um, they have to be able to understand stuff and learn things But I tell you you can have a lead dog that can teach another lead dog in training How to finish a race and then you have a lead dog that can teach the one next to him how to smoke a cigarette, okay? Like humans, yeah, just like humans. So having a good lead dog was the first order of business when I started And that's the best advice I ever got somebody gave me an older lead dog to start with and that help Fords the frontiers from then then on out from many many years ago Yeah, lead dogs are something they're they're special and they really make themselves a parent They don't want us be looking at a lot of dog butts. They want to be up in the front They want to be a friend. Yeah, I did around you have 16 dogs you start with you may have half the team that are leaders And you may rotate them. You may rely on some more heavily than others Injuries happen and you have to drop a dog out. So if you're if you have one key leader That's not gonna get you the finish line to so hot so you need some depth to me. It's like baseball with major leagues and the minors So what is racing taught you about the human The human and dog bond Who taught me that now? What if what if you learn from racing about the human? Oh, yeah, um to me When I really started to get into it I used to fish and hunt a lot and what I found was by getting into the woods with the dogs I could do what I really like to do which was to be in nature But none have to kill it. Okay. I saw enough of that at work with animals and end of life and saw ourself work so the more I spent I'm in the woods with the dogs The bond was pretty amazing It's hard to Put into words the the connection you get but they can read your your Attitude when you walk into the dog yard with where your day is at And they're just always happy to see you And you can have the worst day in the world and go out there and it always makes you feel good The dogs love the howl so they would howl a different day that would always make you feel good So yeah, the human animal bond deal was was special and It's it's hard to Explain but these dogs did sleep outside Yeah, they didn't sleep inside like a house dog But then again, I slept outside with them an awful lot, too You know a few weeks ago we had Dr. Cindy Adelon who is with the pen vet working dog group She's training training dogs for various things. She's training dogs to sniff out her man Joe sarcoma and other dogs And she also was in charge of the 9/11 rescue dogs. She said the same thing She said when we're training these dogs because they raise them there She said genetically when you get they get them in there's six-week-old puppies You can see who wants to work and who doesn't want to work and and her big thing And I think you're just saying it without realizing you're saying it is to listen to them She said when I listen to the dogs that's when I learned everything and you Being in the woods with them. That's what that reminded me of Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's a pretty neat thing That's really hard to explain unless you out there or you're out there and you experience it yourself Not everybody needs to run sled dogs by any means there's plenty of opportunity with your dog One-on-one in in a city or in in the woods for that matter to have that Moment of connection that we all look forward to and hopefully cherish but With a lot of sled dogs there are a lot of moments over the years Did the dogs ever keep you from making a bad decision? Yes, if I chose to listen to them like what you were saying Alice. Yeah, let's say we're on a trail and it's snowing And you can't tell the the trail to take very well I mean they can see it much better than you can and smell Amazing, there've been instances where the trail has been completely covered over and they found their way through on a trail Out versus me directing them where it got us lost. So yeah, they they have a memory of trails That's really amazing and they obviously dogs smell so much better than us They can tell previous teams have come through So yes, I definitely had dogs pull me out of Oh A lot of dicey situations where I just let them be and do their thing That's so cool, and you know what we had on God God guide dogs for the blind and that in the training They think about it dog knows more than you and you're trying to tell them something but they're they're saying no You can't do this because I don't care how smart you are mr. Human you can't and that's got to be hard for them It is what I find honestly and what I was taught and saw in motion are women are much better dog trainers than guys Yeah, guys think dogs do things on purpose and women think dogs don't do things properly because they just don't know Okay, so again man always see it that way and honestly when I've had this discussion over a few beers with musters or whomever I might be it really does pervade through it and the people that are really good dog trainers in the gender of myself tend to be very low key, you know, they're not all well tight and I've seen well tight on both sides of the coin But I've learned a lot more from ladies training dogs and guys and I think it's that way of looking at it As to how to take what the dog has given you and Amplify it or promote it, you know if you have a killer whale that's swimming around a big tank like they used to have before they let them go I think Somehow you train them to jump through a food right it's not that you can communicate to them But you have to work on their level what's that level killer whale likes fish, you know, I like to eat so with sled dogs Okay, there's three things that motivate a sled dog food praise touch and sex that's actually four but only the first three is what I can offer stocks So when I try to, you know, use something to promote a certain type of behavior It's a matter of cause and effect timing and all that kind of good stuff. It's easy to say. It's hard to continue to replicate You know training is tough. I don't know how anyone is a parent and they survive it Let alone the kids so to me having a dog team as much like that especially when you go through generations of dogs Yeah, do most people breed most mushrooms breed their own or do they do? Yeah, many do some will buy absolutely they'll go out and buy you know key dogs to bring into their team from other established people Okay, but you know dogs might cost three five ten thousand dollars, you know to to bring in They're not inexpensive and many of these high-end kennels will have, you know more dogs than they need They're just selecting the ones they really want to keep and then they sell the rest or place them And so how many do you have right now? I? Haven't raised personally since 2015. I have one really last and I Raised for 20 years and the last time I raised it was in 2015 and the I did her out and and since then I I Happed I was able to race all over the world from Europe till asking Canada and the West from the Midwest So we had a great great time of it But there came up a point where it's truly a lifestyle Yeah, it would take up, you know You would train at night and go back to work because I worked full time and then trained full time There weren't a lot of hours in the day to get it all done And looking back I'm not sure how I pulled it off, but I've been able to devote to one or the other I'm sure I would have been more successful than trying to split duty, but that's just the way I click But it did bring forth a lot of the Ideas with nutrition and then, you know as a veterinarian and making pet food Someone can send a picture in of a dog from Arizona showing a before and after and it's very reward You know to see that versus, you know, I love fixing broken bones and all that stuff and getting that satisfaction right afterwards But to see this on animals, you don't actually interact with on a Winer stage is Really great to see as as of that, you know, Alice what it's like to be a vet and what we're trying to do and why we got into this And I've always said let what is what Hippocrity said let your medicine be thy food because to me I've seen, you know, and we get all the marketing about hyper-allergenic diets and hydrolyze you know dr. Tim we get all that But to me you've got to think logically too and my example is I saw a lot of police dogs because I Got to get them well so they don't stop and scratch in the middle of a pursuit or something and So I had one in that was really greasy, a German Shepherd. And of course, by the book, Dr. Tim, what are you going to do? Put it on fatty acid. I'm thinking, wait a minute, this dog's already so greasy. I'm not going to add more oil to this dog. So I did a really high fiber diet to soak up some of that. And I'm going to tell you in a month that dog was a totally different dog. So I think there's, like you said, there's so much logic that goes into seeing the performance, whether it's athletics like you're talking about or skin like I'm talking about the performance and to see what logically you thought for that dog makes a big difference. It does. Digestion really all starts at the colon. Okay. It's backwards in what we're taught. For me, the colon's got to be able to work. It's magic. And that's making a good poop that you can hit with a golf club. Okay. And it's not splattering in your face. So with the colon functioning right, then that means everything upstairs is probably functioning well too. And what's reaching the colon is digested. And it's not undigested food, which then incurs more water absorption or pulling. Okay. Asmodically. And then you get to soft stool stuff. So to me, when I do talks, I try to explain it that way. And then people gain much, they understand it much better. That way, I feel and it makes sense to me logically to do it backwards. You know, you got to have good poop, which means good digestion above. And what does that mean in times of different stresses activity or otherwise does it maintain? And if it doesn't, then something's not right. You know, so it's one thing to have a golden retriever sitting on the couch. It's another thing to have a golden retriever that's actually hunting or jogging with the owner. That is a stress to me or to the dog. I should say I see it as a stress. And what I mean by that is a stress is something that might accelerate the transit time or the food through the digestive tract. Okay. I'm hearing it. Yeah. So what does that? And how do we slow it down? How do we make that better? So they can assimilate the nutrients even in times of heavy exercise? There's many factors that come into play with this. For instance, the high fiber point that you nailed was perfect for that dog. It slowed things down and the severe cleared up, which is amazing. You know, how that works. But I can see how it works in my head, vet school-wise, you know. Right. In practicality, that's the first place I would start, especially with the German Shepherd and all their intrinsic nuances that they have that rarely leads to a good stool, especially in a working German Shepherd line. Which is fascinating that you pulled it off. And like what you talked about, Cindy Otto, one day I'd love to meet her. She does some great work. You know, one thing with the dogs you described, there was a study that showed if you fed too high a fat meal, consistently to these dogs that sniff for a living, bomb dogs, whatever, you can actually impede their ability to smell. When it comes to feeding our pets, we believe in results you can see over hype. And that's exactly why we're proud to partner with Dr. Tim's pet food. Dr. Tim Hunt is a practicing veterinarian who spent decades formulating nutrition for every kind of pet from the laid-back lap dog to his own I did a ride sled team. Check out Dr. Tim's pet food and see what science-back nutrition looks like for your pet. They'll have a shiny coat, more energy, healthy weight, and more. Because every great adventure, even a nap on the couch, starts with a healthy pet. Wow. And you diminish their returns on how often they can pick stuff up. So when I looked at this years ago trying to get the food in different places, I looked at bomb dogs, army dogs, and contactive people and everything. Then I ran across those studies of slight food. This food for the sled dogs isn't going to work for these kind of detection dogs because it'll interfere with it. So it let me down a different path for some other things than instead. So it really is interesting to see how dogs are not little people and things like that can affect them. But again, in the sled dog field, we don't have to have detection dogs per se. But in the bomb department missing one out of 10 is kind of cataclysmic. You've heard me say this before, you know, and Dr. Tim, I'm sure you would agree. Okay, I walk into an exam room and there's a boxer pacing around. Room is full of flatulence, not the humans, but the dog. And people think it's real funny and I will get the straightest face and say, how would you like to be passing gas all day? Something is wrong with this dog. This dog is not absorbing what he's eating. And also when I walk the park and I see people don't pick up poop and it's like horrible poop. And I'm thinking, that's acceptable to you. There's something wrong going on there. Whether it's inflammatory bowel, but let's start with the food. I mean, it's a simple thing. We all know that there's foods we can't eat and especially as we get older. And that's the other thing I wanted to ask you about, Dr. Tim, do you notice as these dogs get older, whether they're sled dogs or dogs in your practice, their diet has to be tweaked. I think so. Yeah, and what I see, you know, you mentioned about the diarrhea or the bloppy stools or whatever it is, in the United States, nobody measures food. They go by volume. Okay, I was just in Europe and they're talking to people and I've been there before and stuff. People usually use weight over their grams. Okay, they weigh things and then they go from there to feed their dogs. You don't see many overweight dogs in Europe. It just don't. And there's two reasons for that. One, they don't spend new to as much as we do here because they control their dogs from breeding and the like. I won't get into that. And two, they actually control the amount of food going into them. So when we look at the US and the dogs, do the dogs look like their owners? Some do some don't. Okay, I won't, you know, say there's anything bad about people loving to eat. But with dogs, the number one problem I see is obesity. Okay, so the dogs are very overweight in the US because of overfeeding. We love our dog and to the high rate of spain neuters, which I'm not against. But when you spay a neuter or a dog, you need to understand their metabolism is dropping by at least 20%. Yeah, okay. Then they can still finish that. They're out in a winning team. Okay, or whatever. That does not affect their performance at all. Okay, they still perform great. You can actually feed them less. So getting back to, you know, the states versus Europe and seeing what you see out in the field, the icky stuff in the parts. It's because of either one, they're feeding too much. So when people call me or talk to me about their food, saying, "God, my dog is on this food. I think it's crap." And ask them why? It's because the crap looks terrible. I say, "Well, to understand where we're at right now, most of the time it's an overfeeding issue." So if you're willing to do this experiment, let's try it. What's that doc? I think reduce the amount you're feeding by half for three days and see if the stools get better. If they don't, we have an intolerance. I'm like, "What? You're speaking of owls." Yeah. And if it does get better, then you're just plain and simple overfeeding. You know, on purpose of food. So it's a real simple thing. And it also gives people the empowerment to figure things out on their own, which they can do. And again, I find that vets as a rule aren't the best with nutrition because of the way we're taught. And the hills, Elf the bit and everything else, trying to get to some basics. There are more and more vets looking to try to understand nutrition better. But it's a big road to hope. But getting back to it, so much common sense comes into play. Rocket scientists are nice and I know a couple, but I tell you what, they're not making dog food. These are actresses or actors. Yeah, we want to do owls. What's in it? We're making wine and tequila. The actress and actresses. Hey, because humans think that. I don't care about that. The dogs can't control what humans give to them. You're right. And that's the top thing that bothers me. Because whatever, a lot of what happens to dogs badly is due to humans, okay? And it's a horrible thing to say, but it is. I help out in rescue, senior rescue. These little dogs. Oh my god, we get them. We rehab them. They're like new dogs because of the owner they had. You know, the little yorky with the, uh, peeing blood for years has a bladder stone. The size of green grapes. Okay, that could have totally been prevented. Oh, I was giving your cranberry. Okay, don't even get me started on that. My point is, you're right, Dr. Tim. We didn't get much about nutrition. And I'll tell you, we graduated the same year. Sadly, the, the gals and guys that were going into nutrition, which there weren't many. All I remember them was carrying buckets from large animal through the halls. I don't even know where they were carrying them. But the focus was on large animal. It wasn't all on small animal. - No, it was all our general stuff. It was all being dairy cows and maybe horses. - Yeah. - And that was it. You know, that was it. - Human doctors are the same way. - Yeah, absolutely. - Unless, I mean, there are nutritionists and dietitians, but human like a GP, they probably take one course in nutrition. - Yeah. - You know? - Yeah. - And the same logic. - Yeah, I like to give is the difference in the human side of an MD versus a DO. And my stepson's an MD, he's great. Get an nutrition, they're just not exposed to that as much as DO's that look at more of a wide, expansive wide things happen versus a very narrow realm of diseases, causes and effects versus what's around you that can cause things to happen. You know, the air you breathe, the food you eat, the everything like that. So when I bring up the DO versus MD and the people are familiar with it, they get it. Because I find in the vet world, very MD thinking, you know, very cutting dried as to how to, this can happen through this, you know, and maybe this, but not too much further outside of that. You don't really look long term unless you have like a diabetic animal. Prevention isn't happening. It's always a disease or a condition, and then you solve it. - Okay, prevention isn't miserable. - Right. - And one thing I'll say with the idea that DOGS can't do it themselves. On each bag of food, there's a quote I've got on there. It says, "Choose wisely for your DOGS sake as they don't have thumbs and can open the cupboard and make it themselves." - Or open the fridge, right? - Right, right. So, you know, what the DOGS do about 80 years ago and they lived on a farm, it wasn't a farm's dog. They allow scraps, but they also didn't live a long time. - No, I've seen generations of people go through now with DOGS and stuff in my practice, and they'll talk about foods and how foods have changed and everything, and honestly, you know, what's the biggest reason why DOGS live longer is food, you know, the nutrition, and the vaccines, you know, and the medicine, yeah, all those things. - I would agree. I totally agree. And sadly, you get people, clients that fight you on it. - Absolutely. - Yeah, I learned to pick my battles and let them talk it through. It is interesting to always look at all the different ways of considering the relevancy of an argument, I guess you can say. And sometimes I'll hear things in my exam room that really get me thinking, now start looking it up and they're spot on, and a lot of times it's conspiracy. - Right. I have to say, I learned, well, like you said, first of all, you gotta be a good listener. And, you know, when, sadly, you can answer the same question, five different ways and still not get an answer. Like, how long has your dog been itching? Well, we bought the house in '85, you know, and it just goes on and on and on and on. And then I got divorced, and then, okay, so how long's the dog been itching? That kind of thing. (laughing) - I'm a good listener. - And I did learn a lot from my patients, there are certain things you cannot change. They're myths and misconceptions, and sadly, the dog suffer the pet, whether it's a dog or a cat, or what have you, suffer because of it. And that to me was the most frustrating. - Yep, no, I agree with you there. And once you can gain the confidence of the people, then you can, you know, advocate for different things, I find more effectively, which makes me feel I never want to start another veterinary practice at all, because I have an established clientele, and from that, you know, it percolates out. And what I'm getting by that is, it's not that we, I have a bunch of people that will believe anything you say, but they give you the time of day to try, you know, versus it's obvious you don't have a clue about what you're talking about. I was lucky enough to have a terrific dermatology professor in college that taught me stuff that sticks with me to the day because of the method by which it was taught, was relatable, you know? So I always go back to that when I'm talking about different things to people, how can I make it analogous to something else and not use these big words that have, my rule is no more than three syllables in a word when I'm talking to a client, okay? - All right, it's sometimes that can be hard. Dima Dex is about as far as I can get and I'm telling you. (laughing) - And my job on the podcast is to keep you guys from using those multi-syllable words. - Right, but Dr. Tim and I have a lot in common. First, we both graduate and say me a second, we both have our offices in century homes. - Oh, cool. - This is adorable, it's gonna be in the show notes. Mine was in 1843, I think yours is 18. - 57. - 57, okay, and I just forgot the third one. Oh, and is it Ed Rosser? - Yeah. - Yeah, and see, back in '89, there were maybe five veterinary dermatologists. We didn't have a fortified one at OSU. You did, Ed was board certified 'cause I, my mentor was in Cincinnati, Dr. Pat Green. So we did not have very many veterinary dermatologists back in our day, Janet, we didn't. - You're also both from the memoir. - Yeah, I'm very few, him, Fred Griffin, and you know what, a few others out there. - Dan Scott. - Totally still practicing. - Yeah, and it was always fun when they all got together and you'd sit back and listen, and you know, I was 22 or something, and I was lucky enough to hang out with them at times, and it was fun to hear their perspective of what they're doing. I never thought about how hard it is to teach. - Yeah, it's not easy. - No, it isn't, you know? There are people that can explain things well, and I'm a little OCD, and I just wanna make sure I tell everything so I don't forget that I left something out, and then I skip over stuff, like instead of going from step one to three, I go step one to step six. And that's not what a good teacher does. - No, no, that's not what a good diagnostician does either. - No. - That's four or five syllables there. - What's the, what's the, I love Derm because it's a very visual, and it's very old factory. - Right. - Right. - Dr. Tim, she was also a picker and a digger. - Grown up. - Oh, you've got, you've got an impulse. - I'm on it. - Yeah, was, did you know Bob Dunston, pathology? - Oh yeah, yep, yep. - But, yeah, when I was a resident, we all kinda studied together, and so he had us up there for a weekend, which I have to tell you, the mosquitoes there are man-eating, to do a review for the pathology part of our Derm Boards. Love Bob Dunston, he's in Florida now, by the way. - Okay, yeah, he was very good, and he would be one I would follow with pathology. - He's histopath, there's a big difference with getting histopaths done by someone who's in a dermatology field versus not, with actors. - Yeah, you're right. - And at least I'll say, there's a good one at state now, who's very good and puts it out there. So, it's really fun when you find those people to really get an accurate diagnosis versus finding someone who's vanilla. - And works for like a big corporate lab? - Yeah, I don't like big corporate labs. I never can get a dancer. I mean, you got this vague this stuff. And they're always C-Y-A, you know? I like someone that hangs it up, you know? - Janet, I have a feeling he and I are the two rebels, because this is why, to be honest with you, I'm kind of, how can I say? I was a pharmacist before I did this. Okay, that's why I'm 10 years. I was, had another career for 10 years. That's why I'm 10 years older than you. - Today's episode is sponsored by Dr. Tim's Pet Food. Until next time, keep asking questions, keep learning and keep loving your pets. Learn more at DrTim's.com. - And so, I didn't do everything, I wasn't 22, I was 31. And so, when someone would say, you gotta do this, I'd say, well, why? Why are you doing this? And that didn't go over well. But my point of telling you that is, okay, so like you said, textbook, everything's textbook. Right, I've had, back when Atopika was the big drug for allergy. I've had gotten retrievers controlled on 25 milligrams a day. Because to me, I don't know, I don't think I need to do five mix per kick every day and have them on 120 milligrams a day. And then they get all this gingival hyperplasia and all these infections and stuff. You gotta think out of the box. - Yeah. - Big words, L. Big words. Okay, gum overgrow. Okay. - Nice. - Well, we've gotta wrap it up, Alice. - This has been, I'm so excited to have you on the show. - 47 minutes. - No, we've still got, she's such a Debbie Downer. I gotta tell you something else. Okay, so Dr. Tim's pet, - I gotta keep y'all in wraps here. - He also makes supplements. And this is not a commercial. Dr. Tim sent me this, it's CBD with PEA. PEA is, this is a multicyllable word. - Oh my God. - It's an anti-inflammatory and it's been proven to help in allergy. - So even though I have Annie on immunotherapy for what she's allergic to, when she started to flare and Dr. Tim had sent me some, I start her on the drops and I'm gonna tell you, it calms that itch and down. I'm probably gonna start Gidget. Gidget's my China Rescue Golden because you know they eat them there. The Union Meat Festival is going on right now. - Yeah. - She's got her out, I wish I could have gotten them all out. - Gidget is more of a little nervous dog. - Yeah. But she's a little more itchy right now and grass pollen is high because we're done with trees So I'm going to actually start her on it right now too because you said me too. Thank you so much And I don't know if you guys noticed we had some action back here on this chair I had the cat was there and my golden Libby they were like they're very friendly and and then the cat was so loud I don't know if you could hear like let me out I can hear that and I saw you exit stage right Oh my God and no one else is here to let her out and like I gotta stop her We have to ask Dr. Hunt what pets do you have now? Yeah, what do you sound like you travel you have like one? You said I don't travel as much as I'd like to try to force it to happen more Um, I only have three dogs in a cat right now This is the few animals I've had in so many years probably says vet school to tell you the truth Actually, it is this a few aside that says I was in school So as it was a couple of years ago and I have no three-legged animals right now, which is very sad I mean every good vet needs at least one yeah, you know, so Yeah, what I dog Yep, don't say all something, you know some sort of island of misfit toy pets you have to have yes Yes, yes, but as you speak about supplements, you know when I look at stuff There's a lot of also ran out there. There's a lot of the same stuff So when I started looking at CBD, I had no idea what it was about I started digging into it And then I realized it actually had some credence. So I sought out the best vet Formulator to there was and there was the guy that started a can a companion and That other big one. I can't think of right now. Anyway, I had him formulate for me and puts and stop together and He said well, what do you want to do when I said well? What's needed out there because there's nothing for seizures So we came up with something called CNS-3 which is really nice as an edge out for Difficult seizure dogs plus it works really great for fireworks and thunderstorms and then the next thing was okay Let's move on to the next step. I don't need something everybody has what else is missing out there I said, you know, what about skin and he said their studies about the PE a I looked into it and there was it was like Okay, let's bring that one into the mix. So, you know, those are the first few we've got we've got some other broad spectrum stuff But there is some credence to the CBD and how it works which is not because of the TAC There's none in there. It's it's a whole different mechanism that neither one of us was exposed to when we were in school They didn't know it, you know Hotwoods were smoking to get high wasn't medicinal per se even though People talked about it when you have cancer for vomiting and everything else There was a lot there if you go back to over medicine that actually has some berry. Okay I'm quite a bit if you tell if he asked me so getting into that the CBDs has their have their place But then you get into administration so if you don't have compliance you can't really use it So you got to figure out what's the best way to get it into a cat or a dog, you know Is it the tincture? Is it a chewable? We're coming out with chewables because people like to use that You just have to use more in it because of the biodegradability The other thing there's two more things um, and I know we have to wrap this up But there's three things I saw out there in the marketplace in the world of animals that I thought were problem skin allergies obesity and dental Health, okay, so obesity is like all right. None of these RD diets ever work. Okay, the uh, they just don't that dogs stay fat Regardless of how much are outlittle you feed our D. Why does that happen? I looked at and it was like because people give in to the beggy Yeah, oh yeah, they all because the dog's bed and I always Termin like this is if you wait Chinese food you're usually hungry in about two hours You eat Italian you're not hungry for like 12 right why is that and it's the fat content and a lot of these diets are just so restricted In fact the dogs aren't stated because of fullness they try to get away with a lot of cellulose to bulk them up It just doesn't work in dog world You have to go to a moderate fat high protein certain types of protein so on so forth And that's where we came out with the metabolite diet which far exceeded my expectations as to working to give weight off the dog Okay, and it worked right out of the gate So then the third thing was dental health. Okay, what I see is just terrible dental disease across the board dogs and some cats especially cats with that horrible stomatitis So when I started to look at what to use there's a few products on the market that actually do work based on the idea of Working against the bacteria in the mouth With causing them not to be able to grow properly and so on and then at least to smell and and tartar build up and all that stuff And then I looked at that ingredient and then there's a milk protein derivative that really has some really good claims For dental use and then lastly is that plankton from north the North Atlantic. So we put that together as what's called dental dust And it's something you sprinkle on the food and it works. I mean that I did I seriously the China rescue She came to me at a year of age with already that upper fourth pre-molers are horrible I've actually cracked some of the plaque off, but it's still pretty bad Yeah, I'll get it to you. I love that and I'll report back to you Yeah, no, I'm gladly sent it to you Um, and the last ingredient in there is porcelain plasma which is an immune stimulant which will work local You know, it does work at the level of the guns and I never thought of it like that to me Immune drugs are meant to be put into the stomach and then systemically it affects things Versus a local thing, but the local IGA you're right. Yeah, right. I mean tucker linus Works on fistulas, ain't nobody official is right. Yeah. Yeah, so why can't we do the same on the front with something else You know, so that's what you know, I'm sitting there at night thinking on stuff as to whether or not it's Relevant and then is it all window dressing or does it actually work? So so far The dental dust has been working really really well Um, so long story short, it's always fun to innovate and kind of come up with things work with my nutritionist That I think was on your show if you want a few times back He's really good with keeping me in check and that was marcy campion. Oh, we love marcy Yeah, yeah, she is a friend of my friend Karen Lebar who worked with i'm for 40 years Then went to blue buffalo. Yeah, he's retired now American alder today. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's fun about being a lone wolf just like you, Alice is you can turn the ship quickly It's not like an aircraft carrier like some of the bigger companies which honestly own 95% of the marketplace is kind of shared by three or four companies and the rest of these little guys like Like me But to be able to move it quickly is good and bad, you know, you have to be careful But it does allow for innovation innovation comes from the small companies not the big companies anymore The big companies follow up the small innovators is what I I see And that's not our intent. I just like to Huts with this stuff is just kind of fun Well my other thing and I don't you know you we've got to wrap it up But my other thing with that is I don't like to be brainwashed I refuse to be brainwashed I you can give me the data and let me think about it and let me kind of read up on it on my own And I think that's why I kind of have always been like the rebel of the derm world proudly so Because I like to think on my own Yeah, like to think what's best for the pet and also for the pets Owners pocketbooks because if that Thick if that treatment isn't Financially doable that dog's not going to get treated. That's right. No, it's nice to write it down and have your butt covered But uh, they're not gonna they're not gonna get treated. I'm with you So I have to ask you our guest question. Oh god Here we go. What is your pet or human peeve? My pet or what human peeve Like what gets to what gets under your skin? What piss is about In pet world or in life In life and life Pet peeves in life, you know, I've been able to calm down a lot the last few years so things don't rile me up and when people I don't want to slam them anymore or chase them around the block Damn pet peeves are One when people say they need to worm their dog We need to be worm the dog, you know so Warming means we give them worms, demons, we get rid of that There's one example of a pet peeve. That's a good one. That's a good one. I never thought of it that way That's a good one This has been so fascinating. Thank you so much for being a part of our world. I hope to meet you someday We have to go for a cocktail because I'm telling you we just the two stories that we could tell and all the people we know in common Seriously, yeah, it's a small world. It's amazing how small it truly is once you get out there and who you come across and The lines they take so Ohio State had a terrific cardiologist when you were there. I can't think of his name. Oh wait. Oh my god And I just got up in the other day. See you was it? No, no, it was oh my god it's gonna drive me nuts because he'd always look at me because I live in Hinkley, Ohio. He'd go Hinkley because he was from the Northern Ohio area. Oh my god, I'll think of it at 2am today. Yeah, yeah, I heard him give a lecture once talk about the heart about things I've never even heard of and how it works and stuff. It was like this whole hidden world of things out there that were just touching the little bit of it as general practitioners and yeah. Do you remember the people that interviewed you? Those are my three of my favorite people. They're no longer with us but because they were older gentlemen and Janet and I our parents were old when we had us. So that's why we talk so loud because all our parents weren't here and so that's why I get along with elderly people because our whole life we were around old people but I still remember those three that interviewed me and I just cherish them and who do you remember the names of who interviewed you? Oh yeah, one was named Duke Tanaka. He was an anatomy professor who was the nicest guy in the world but they did bad cop good cop back then okay and he was the bad cop and the other one was George Eister who was a cardiologist who was a dick okay we just a just a complete asshole and I heard about him from the vet I worked for. He talked about Eister and he graduated in 76 I think. Anyway, I walked into the interview and there's Eister and this other guy in Oplu and I thought oh my god and then I started to talk and Eister was nice but he's notorious for just crucifying you. Anything he can because he's a cardiologist that's what they do but he had me drawing how to spend a dog on a piece of paper and asking who my person was that I oh who is my biggest mentor people I admire and then stuff and this other guy who can't be mean if he tried to be was trying to be tough. The bad cop. Yeah, he was the bad cop and then the next time on the next person it would flip and I found that out in vet school because the guy after me I was talking to and he related the same story and said the next time he was after me that Eister was the bad cop and I'm so lucky to this day I got in the correct order. Bob Hamlin. Robert Hamlin. Yeah, well thank you so much. Oh, you're welcome. Thank you for putting up with my long story. Oh, I enjoyed every minute. Fascinating stories. Well, we can hardly wait to have the on the show. So thank you so much. You're welcome. Until next time. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to like, share and love us. We love that and Alice. What do you want to say? I've just had a wonderful time. I'm sorry that it has to end, but I guess it does. So thanks everyone for listening. Kiss your pets for us and give a give a listen not only to the audio version, but check out the our web page SOPpodcast.com where we have the show notes and a lot more info about Dr. Hunt and the I did a ride and all of the fabulous stuff that he makes and of course the one that I've got right now for Annie, but the stuff he's going to send me, wink wink for Gidget. Thanks so much for listening. Bye. Hey, thanks for watching and listening. We like likes. Don't forget to like, share and subscribe. You can follow us on social media at speaking of pets and give your pets a big kiss from the Novotni Sisters. The speaking of pets podcast is an SLA video production.