Former Counterintelligence Agent Shares WILD Alien Encounters - Richard Doty | ep. 100

The one thing that convinced me beyond anything else that I had access to was listening to this Air Force Sergeant female who was abducted countless times went through literally tortured by these extraterrestrials. Having marks on her hands, they took her fingernails off her toenails off, bleeding from the eye, ruptured her ear drum ones, and then a lot of things that we did in a surveillance capacity to confirm what she says. That convinced me that there are, they weren't humans doing this to her. You surveilled it? We set up a surveillance and that's about all I can say. She lived in a two story, a real small apartment and she her bed was upstairs and we knew that she would be taken during a time period. So this is a multi-pronged, multi-faceted, multi-departmented sting operation in order to capture this. Yes, that was successful. There were some that weren't, but that was what was successful. That's the fact and she's a whistleblower and she would be the number one person I would put in front of a camera if I was a member of Congress. Whoa. A mentality regarding they can't be hostile. They're all benevolent. It is absolutely out the window. Are they on here? Yeah, I'm going to show you something. Okay. Wow. Is that something you've seen before? I can't say. I think you just did. I've had several strange experiences in my life, potentially related to EP phenomena, but this story is in regards to levitation. When I was nine or ten years old, I was walking home from a friend's house. As I would sometimes do, I decided to run as fast as I could and jump as far as I could. I did two jumps, both of which I measured from where I landed back to the stop sign that was my jumping off point. They were maybe five to ten feet. I decided to do one more, went back away and ran towards the stop sign. As I jumped, I suddenly became aware that the air seemed very silent. I also had a strong experience of weightlessness and extreme forward momentum. More than the last two jumps. I came down at a dead stop on both feet, feeling almost zero gravitational influence. Tracing my steps back to the stop sign, I counted over 30 steps. Within moments, I heard crickets, cars in the distance, lawn sprinklers, all of which had faded away while I was in the air. I tried hundreds and hundreds more times. I never even came close to the same distance. And it wasn't a dream because I told my mom when I got home. She didn't believe me, but remembered me telling her when I asked about it later. I don't know. It's a big, weird world. Ladies and gentlemen, today we are joined by none other than Richard Dodie, former AF OSI officer. You've got quite the history. Good, sir. You've got a lot in your past in terms of euphology and your relationship to it, whether it's in a formal capacity or an informal capacity, whether that's a hobby or a job. Your name is pretty, you know, I would say pretty prominent in this topic. So I'd, first of all, want to thank you for joining me today. Thank you. Good to be here, Chris. Yeah. For those people out there wondering, you know, who I'm sitting with, they might be familiar with you. They might have seen your face somewhere, whether that's ancient aliens, whether that's a Netflix documentary or even some other documentaries that have come out in the past. You're a recognizable figure to those of us who know about the UFO topic. But to those who don't, how would you introduce yourself? Well, I'm a former Air Force OSI special agent, counterintelligence officer within Air Force Special Investigations. And I started that career back in the 70s. I worked in some controversial issues, primarily the Paul Benowitz case. A lot of the UFO historians know about that case, whether they want to criticize me for it, for what I did in it, but I did it in accordance with military regulations. And I worked in the intelligence community up till 1988. From there, I left the government service. I worked for the state of New Mexico for a while and then I worked for Dr. Putoff at the Institute for Advanced Studies for 12 years. And then sometime in the mid, probably 2010 or 2015, I started coming on programs and talking about what I did during my time in counterintelligence. And then in 2018, I was hired by a GAIA and I have over 220 episodes in GAIA. I also have about 18 episodes of the Dodie Chronicles. I've been on ancient aliens, a number of different other UFO programs, talking about my past experience in the subject of UFOs or investigating them. So that's who I am and that's what I've done in the past. Thank you so much for that. Incredible pedigree. There's a lot there. There's a really colorful history across these last, I would say, almost 40 years. I want to start somewhere because we had a guest on recently, Mario Woods, who you're familiar with, who you've actually met for the first time in 1977. And it wouldn't be until decades later that would be brought up again. And Mario was a guest here just a few short weeks ago and we actually tried to get you and Mario together and it didn't work out timing wise. But Mario had a really interesting encounter to say the least, not only with what appeared to be a giant craft, but also the beings aboard that craft. And then afterwards was subsequently debriefed for like five hours and interrogated and he had to write down exactly what happened and all of this. But during that process, there was a sort of medical exam or sort of physical examination that took place by OSI officers, namely yourself and someone else. And you, if I'm not mistaken, were that you were just coming into that sort of space, if I'm not mistaken, that would have been quite new for you? Yes, I was on a temporary assignment to Ellsworth Air Force Space on something entirely different. It was a espionage investigation. And while I was at the OSI office, Mario, these would Mario occurred. And I was asked by the chief of the detachment commander at Ellsworth, a guy by name of John Brisbane, to go to the base hospital and pick up records for Mario Woods, Sergeant Mario Woods. So I did. I went there. I brought him back when I brought him back to the OSI office. Mario was there. I walked into the interview room to give the medical files to Jack Green, who was the OSI agent investigating this incident. And I stood there in the room while they were talking to Mario. And before this, I had no idea what the incident occurred. But as I listened to this, I became more intrigued by it. And so I was, I probably stayed in there for 45 minutes or so. I don't know exact time. I left and I had to do some other things. And then I had to go and do what I was there to do. But I came back and they still had Mario in there. Now, by timeline, I think it would have been probably about 10 hours of interrogation a while, rather than a four or five. Because when I came back, now there might have been a break in between, but they were still going after, I mean, they weren't going after him, but they were interrogating. There's a difference real quickly in, in counterintelligence or any, any, type of investigation, whether it's criminal or espionage or anything else, you interview, you can be doing an interview or you can be doing an interrogation or different. An interview would just obtaining the information relaxing the target, the person that you're interviewing. Interrogating is you're trying to force that person to give you information that they don't want to give you or they might not remember it. And when I, the second time I went there, they were interrogating Mario. - You're grilling him? - They were grilling him on what he did or what he saw. And apparently at some other time, they had the second Air Force Security policeman who was with Mario because it was two of them in the pickup truck and they had him in another room. I never went in that other room, so I'm not sure what they did or how they interviewed him. But I saw them interrogating Mario. And based on what I remember then and then jump ahead, you know, 40 some years, what Mario said and what happened is factual, because the OSI report later, which was classified, considered an actual incident. - So really? - Yeah. - You had access to that, obviously. - I had access to that. Yeah. And I've had conversations with Mario. I've been on some other podcast with him and I believe everything he says. He might have got some things or not wrong, but he might have forgotten some things because there was a time period that he might have had a missing time link when the incident first happened. - Six hours. - Yeah, exactly. I thought it was more than that, but it was six hours. And so what happened during that time, you know, only the aliens know. - Yeah, sure. - Yeah, them and perhaps Michael Johnson as well, who did you meet with him? Were you debriefing him as well? Were they interrogating Michael Johnson at the same time? - Michael Johnson was in another room. I never had access to Michael Johnson. - At that point, he was like catatonic as well. He wasn't really. - Well, as I understood, he had been in the hospital. They had transferred. Somebody went over. I wasn't me. Somebody went to the base hospital and picked him up and brought him to the OSI office. I don't know if it was an agent or the ambulance or would. Well, I think it might have been their supervisors, the security police, the 44th, missile security squadron was worth it in. And I think it was somebody within that squadron and a captain or somebody brought him there. But again, I didn't have any contact with Michael Johnson to only Mario. - And during this time, Mario had also said that he was in, and I believe, if I'm not mistaken, this was done by the OSI officer, that they felt around his mouth. Do you remember him saying this? - Yes. - And that they were looking for something in his mouth. They spent a substantial amount of time, several minutes feeling around the inside of his mouth. Can you tell me why that is? - As I understood, he had, when he was examined at the base hospital, he was examined first by the emergency room physician, who I don't remember what a specialty that was, but normally it's just a general practitioner. And then he said something to them at the hospital that OSI was interested in of how his voice changed. And I think that's why, again, I wasn't there and I can't say for a fact, but I believe they thought he might have had something and planted into his mouth or his throat. And that's why they checked it first at the emergency room. And I believe later there was a, I may be a specialist, I knew ears and throat doctor that saw him, but the OSI office, they were looking for something in his throat that might have been implanted in there. That's what I got out of it. - And implanted by whom? - By whoever took him, maybe the extraterrestrial. I know, but-- - Is that par for the course? Is that something that they've run into before? That's why they were checking it out? - Now, let me go back a little bit. - Sure. - During this time period, I was not briefed in any special programs. - No, this is before. - This is way before, two years before. So I had no idea about any of this, about abductions or about implants or anything like that. Years later, when I was briefed in to everything, I realized that the extraterrestrials, in order, there were occasions where, or incidents where they had placed something in the body, the mouth, the throat, the nose, in order for the extraterrestrials to better communicate with the human. Now, I don't know how that worked. There are specialists, Dr. Green and others can explain that. I'm not a doctor, so I can't explain why or how they did that. But I know that there were at least two cases that I know of, a woman that had had an abduction and air force, a sergeant, she was an air force. She was abducted and they had placed something under her tongue. - And this was done during your time. - That's the most exciting, yes. - Do we have her name or is that currently? - That's pretty much classified. She's a whistleblower right now listed in Congress. So she, if she comes out and speaks-- - Well, no. - Yeah, and there's gonna be an an awakening, so to speak, in the difference between a friendly extraterrestrial and a non-friendly extraterrestrial. Because she went through the horrors of abductions from an hostile extraterrestrial. - Really? Is, do you think that that is, I wanna talk more about this a little bit later, but do you think that that is perhaps her perception due to this forceful sort of kidnapping that one would make a being who might be neutral, seem sort of more malevolent, because of the nature of, you know, we're looking at something from another world, looks menacing, you know, they're perhaps pinning her down. We don't know the real reason. Why this would happen? Do you think that there's a, because when someone says hostile, but then has a chip implanted and is let go, you know, like we are also hostile to dolphins, but that doesn't mean we wanna kill the dolphins and take over the dolphin world and like, you know, you know what I mean? And so do you think that might just be her interpretation of the event? - It could very well be because number one, we have no idea what these extraterrestrials intent is in abducting a human being, to get information or to get DNA or to get samples of their fluids or whatever. So they're alien to us and we're alien to them. They might have to use techniques that we can't even imagine to get information from and a human. And so you're right, that could very well be, that's just the way they operate. Now, she's alive, they didn't kill her. She's recovered. But so, her case, what stand us out to me is her case that has been thoroughly, I mean, thoroughly, thoroughly investigated by the government, not just AFLSI, but by other agencies within the government. - What other agencies? - The intelligence community, I'll just leave it at that. There were techniques because of her abductions, there were techniques developed from her abductions that were collected by use intelligence that I can't talk about that can prove her case. - Wait, so there are certain things that happen to her that they now use to see if other cases are legitimate? - Absolutely. - Does that have to do with like physical markings? - Yes, that in some trace traits that, I gotta be very careful here, the traits that the abducte shows that can be traced to something else. And based on that, there was something developed by the intelligence community. Dun dun mah one, determine whether the person is actually telling the truth. In number two, an encounter part of that is protecting the target. That was developed years later. It wasn't developed during her time, but based on what she went through, the intelligence community and, contractors are developed something that can protect a human from a particular type of abduction from a particular extraterrestrials. Now you got to understand this. One of the main problems the public has is that they group all extraterrestrials into one group, one category. You can't do that. During my time, I knew, and I have them here, a list of them, of the extraterrestrials that we knew existed that we had contact with, okay? And so they're all different. Number one, they're all different biologics. They come from different planets. Their body structures are entirely different. So you can't group their brains are different. So you can't group all extraterrestrials into one category. That's why when we talk about an abduction of a human by an extraterrestrial, it depends on what extraterrestrials doing and what they're gathering and how they're doing it and what type of thoughts or what type of techniques or gadgets they're putting into those humans. So when the government creates something to counter it, it's only going to work on that particular extraterrestrial. It's not going to work on anyone else. Then again, I can't go into great details because I knew I knew some more information about this, but there are a lot of other species and a lot has been developed beyond my time. And I don't want to go into anything that my disclose something and I'm not supposed to talk about. So I'll just leave it at that. Sure. I mean, super interesting that there's protocol on the sort of anti-abduction process. Well, when I was working on a Mourna Hanson case, and you know who Mourna Hanson is, that's part of the pub into his case. When Leo Sprinkle and Alan Heineck brought her to us, I had no idea anything about abductions. I didn't know that they were real. I wasn't ever briefed into it. And I did a report and sent it to headquarters and a week or so later to DIA agents came down to Kirkland to the OSI office. I was told that hey, I two visitors out here want to see me. You know, they were cleared. I brought them in. They said, yeah, we want to talk about the Mourna Hanson case. And they said, okay, I said, who you guy? What branch are you with? And he, one of them tells me, where would this particular branch? I said, what is that involved? He said, abductions. We investigate abductions. And I said, the DIA has a branch that investigates alien abductions. He said, yeah. The DIA. So I knew then he said, you mean you're not briefed into this particular special access program? I said, no, what I got briefed into it. And then I realized that this has been going on for years. And take it very seriously. This is 1980. And these guys are taken as seriously. And this unit within DIA has been around for years. Now DIA, remember when he came in existence in 1961. So I thought, I didn't say anything to them, but my curiosity is, well, wait a minute. These things must be real then, because I didn't think that Mourna, I mean, I interviewed Mourna Hanson, but I just thought she was psychologically unstable or something. Sure. I mean, the DIA is also known to be involved in like a lot of trippy subjects, including Stargate, including, you know, taking on all of the work at SRI that they were doing and that type of thing. Do you think that a lot of that is still within the DIA specifically, or has that been also sort of branched out into contractor hands? I think that's, it's being still controlled by DIA, but I feel that it's been contracted out. Yeah. Most things have been, I would assume. Yes. For, you know, to remove yourself for any plausible deniability that the government might want or should want in these scenarios, which does bring a question to mind as well. So when you were working on the Paul Benowitz case, first of all, the decision to sort of implement misinformation or inject information in a counterintelligence capacity due to, you know, seeing advanced tech and covering that up. How was that decision given to you? Were you brought in a room and brief? Were you given? Was this in writing? Was this verbally? How was that given to you to take care of this? Anytime there's an operation or a project within OSI or intelligence community, there has to be an operational plan. When the case first opened, the Paul Benowitz case first opened, I would do a report and send it to headquarters and it would go through CIA to DIA. And then they would send back a operations plan, or a list of things that I need to do to prepare an operations plan, or to get more information. And in particular, Bob, in his case, they sent back and said, "You need to do this, this, this, this, and this." And what was this, this, this? Go out and get more information on him, find out neighbors, do what we call a local agency check, and I did all those things. There was probably 10 things I did. I did a report, sent a back up there. And then we got on the phone, we call a KY3 phone as a secure phone system, where we discussed the case between me, my boss, and headquarters. And they decided, "Okay, we need to do this operational plan," which was developed up there, "Set to me, and here's what I had to do," and the plan was followed. And so the disinformation, or the misinformation, was all planned at headquarters. That's what they told me to do. I knew what I was told to do. And so that's how that goes. So was that stuff, did it feel to you like they had done that before? Oh, I know they'd done it before because I've been involved in other operations where they'd done it. Yeah, I see. So this was kind of protocol on how to deal with this scenario. Now was that to deal? Was that only for people who saw sort of technical, advanced vehicle testing? Was that like the protocol? Or was there more than one protocol to deal with that? Was there a story, a script that you guys had to follow? I'm very curious about how you guys went about, okay, somebody reports a siding. Do you instantly go into, okay, we investigate this, and then if it was us doing advanced tech stuff, then we have this cover story that we go in with. Or was every case taken case by case? How was that filtered? Every case was different. It depends on who saw it, the target we call, and what the circumstances were behind their siding. And Paul's case, he was taking pictures of something that was flying over the base. And it was a highly classified program, a drone program. It was the Air Force's drone program that was in its infancy stage. And the way they tested these drones was, they would fly a plane. It could be a C-130, which is propeller driven or a RC-135 or RC-137, which were like a 707. They would launch these drones from the plane, and it would be a controller controlling, but the plane had to be in close proximity to these drones. Well, Paul was taking pictures of these objects flying around this aircraft, these aircrafts, and he assumed that they were UFOs, they were extraterrestrials. And so it was, so in order for him to not become involved in the classified program, we had to convince Paul that, yeah, he was seeing UFOs. But it seems like he was already convinced of that. Like, why not just let him believe it was UFOs and ignore it entirely? Well, we did. I would go in, and number one, Paul was involved in APPRO, which, as you know, what that was. He was an investigator, field investigator for APPRO. The infancy stage of Mufon was there. He was a believer in UFOs. He's had an experience with the UFO on it. picked Nick once with his family. So he was a believer. And so when I went in to talk to him and he told me what he what he did, what he saw, he was trying to convince me they were UFOs. All I had to do was say, you know what? Well, I think they are. They are, I think they are, flying saucers. He would use the word flying saucers, not UFOs. And that's it. That's all I had to do. I didn't have to sit there and interrogate him or brainwash him or anything like that. He was already a believer and it was very simple to just agree with him. Yeah, and to do the opposite would have been going against direct orders. Exactly. Yeah, that's an interesting position to find yourself in. At what stage during your career was that particular incident beginning? How many years in? About three and a half or four years in. And how many cases had you covered similarly before that? UFO related. In 1979 we had a case or early 80s, late 1979 early 80s. We had a case at Courland involving a sighting in a highly classified area of the base. Sandy a national laboratory's security guard. Now Sandy was a contractor on the base. The security guard was civilian, had encountered with a UFO and landed on the base. I was the case agent that went out there and investigated that. Before this, I was not briefed in anything to do with UFOs. So I took the report, I investigated it, I came back to the office, I submitted a report through my through my boss to headquarters. Headquarters came back and said, I need to be briefed into this particular program and not is called 9Q. So my boss says, you need to go, we're going to get you a briefing, you're going to need to go over to the Air Force Special Security Office which is on the west side of Courland Air Force Base and get a briefing. I said, okay, and now I've done that before on other matters, but nothing to do with UFOs and espionage or something other. So I did, I went over there, I sat and went in a room, there was some other people, Air Force Colonel and a civilian briefed us on the United States government involvement with the investigation to contact with extraterrestrials from 1947. And that's the briefing. It lasted several hours, they showed us film, they showed us some documents, we took it all in, I would say we, how many people were there? There were, I don't remember exactly 10, maybe not OSI agents. Right. I was the only OSI agent in their room. The other people in the room were intelligence people or some other people that had a need to know. Were, were the other people in the room were some of them also civilians like were these academic types or contractors? There's no shortage of creativity on this channel as you've probably noticed. We churn out some of the highest quality productions in terms of podcast weekly and it is fun, but it's also a grind and we don't always have time to attain that Spielberg-esque level of production on a weekly basis. It's nearly impossible, but we do manage and that is partially due to the help of Higgs Field Cinema Studio. So we use Higgs Field in pretty much every single production that we do and whether it's really subtle things or whether it's recreating something, but you can also use Higgs Field in very creative ways like I can have it rain in my studio right now or I could teleport myself into a UFO. There's no shortage of ideas. It really is limited only by your imagination and if you want to check out how to use Higgs Field or if you're curious all left the link in the description, thank you to Higgs Field for sponsoring this video. Some of them will contract are San Diego National Laboratories. A couple of them were with Department of Energy. I think there were some civilian scientists within the Air Force weapons laboratory there. I'm just guessing because I don't know exactly, but I was the Odeosa agent. Anybody with like longer hair than they should have? They would hire some kooky scientists back then and all sorts of trippy folk looking into this stuff, but so you're given this briefing. This is really fascinating. Now in this briefing you mentioned, okay, there's footage, photos, there's documents. Did you ever get the sense as someone who's never stepped foot into this that this has got to be baloney? Like what they're what they're telling me here, this can't be real. Did you or anyone in the room get that sense or were you all just kind of taken to back of what you were seeing? Well, I had no conversations with anybody else during this briefing. We had a break period too. It was several hours. I never had any briefing because it was classified. We left to go to break room. It's on a classified area. You can't talk about classified information. We were not going to skiff when this briefing occurred. But yes, absolutely because after this briefing was over with, I had to drive from there back over to the OSI office, which was on the east side of Kirtland Air Force Base, 78 miles. I pulled into a parking lot of some unit on base and sat there and trying to digest what I just heard. And my skepticism was way up here, I thought, is this a psychological operation? They're pulling on us. You thought that? Oh, absolutely. I was, in fact, I was always somewhat of a skeptic in the subject because growing up, my brother was UFO, no, I didn't believe any of that stuff. But even in a regular Air Force, when I was wearing a uniform in a regular Air Force, there was occasions of people talking about the subject. I would not believe anything they were talking about. Jump ahead to sit in that parking lot. I thought, this can't be real. I mean, the crash in Roswell, crash at Kingman, we saw a film of a crash site, some made up. So I get back to the office. Before we get back to the office, that film in the crash site, can you elaborate a little bit which crash site? It was the Roswell crash site. That was the Roswell crash, the one in Corona. They run one in Corona. It showed the craft, it showed bodies outside the craft, like an adirt mound, and it showed a recovery area where there were tents, military tents set up. There were military personnel in uniformed army uniforms. This is 47, Air Force hadn't existed quite yet. There were debris that they apparently had taken out of the craft and sent on tables. There was a narrator. None of the people in the movie or film were talking. There was a narrator, an army or a military officer narrating what we were seeing. Obviously, that narrator wasn't there, I'm sorry, was something that was added later. But it was a look to me, like a legitimate film, the beginning of the film showed it was classified. So that's what the film was. Now the officers showed a second recovery site in Kingman, Arizona, and I think it was 53. They showed the craft and they showed two bodies. Similar bodies? No, they were different. They looked different. Now, in 53, there were Air Force personnel around. The recovery truck said United States Air Force on it. That's what I can remember in the film. How are you allowed to talk about this? It's all unclassified now. That's unclassified? That is unclassified. So what happened in the footage? Good question. Where's the footage? Congress wants that footage. The Air Force gave him some things but didn't give him everything. Now, I would love to know what all that footage is. And that's just two of probably 40 or 50 different crash sites that we know about. Really? Could we, as I mean, there's probably been several attempts to foyer that briefing or those documents that were available in that briefing? How much success have people found in trying to retrieve some of that, what you saw? I tried. I tried myself and I got the, they can't confirm existence or non-existence of the material that I requested. So it's not going to be released because it's, but I've talked about it. Many other people have talked about it. My NDA expired in 2002. I started talking about it after 2002. There were only, during, during 2002 and 2020 today, as we talked, in 20 26. There's been two occasions where I've been visited by FBI agents who told me that I said something on camera that I shouldn't have said. And I knew at the time, I actually knew that I shouldn't have said what I was saying because it was still a special access program in SAP. But I said it, and I tried to work around what I said, and I did a poor job of that. And then the second time, it was a document that I'd given to somebody that had some classified information on it. And I could assure you that stuff isn't. That's been on the internet for years. That I shouldn't have given them. They're that quick to pick up on it, either fine-tooth combing everything like this interview will be under scrutiny, you believe. Absolutely, every single episode I've done for Gaia. And only at the beginning, when I first started working at Gaia, the first probably 10 episodes, nothing. The 11th episode, we talked about something and I did -- or FBI didn't come, but OSI contacted me by phone. And I knew the guy. He was a civilian, well, civilians in OSI, you know. And he left OSI and came back as a contractor, which within a television community, it happens all the time. Sure. You're never fully out. Exactly. And he called me and he said, Richard, how you doing? I saw your episode on Gaia, and I want to ask you a few questions. And I said, yeah, what do you need? He said, why the hell did you mention this, this, and this? I said, it's unclassified. He said, no, it's still classified. I said, it is? He said, yeah. I said, well, I assumed -- he said, you don't ever assume, because you don't assume, you make it. And I said, okay, well, I guess I'm going to get visited. I never was visited. And this was in 2018, probably, yeah, early or late 2018. Nobody ever visited me, so I assumed it's not classified anymore. I talked -- I saw him at the UFO convention a year later, 2019 at -- What was he doing there? And they're always there. In fact, in that particular one, which one was it? 2019 at Laughlin. Okay. There were three uniform Air Force officers in the audience uniform. Yeah, they were in uniform. What's that about? Well -- Is that for show? For show? I guess, or they were trying to intimidate the crowd. I don't know. But I didn't notice them right off the bat, but I think it was Robert Dean, because window was dead by that time. But Robert Dean was there. And Robert Dean came up and he said, hey, what's with the blue suitors out there? I said, what do you mean? He said, there's two captains in a senior master sergeant out there. I said, okay. So I saw him. I went up to him. I'm a blonde guy, you know. I come up to him and I said, hey, I'm Richard Dodie. And they said, we know who you are. I said, you guys here on business? The captain was the one that was speaking, the female captain. And I never knew, I didn't know her before this. And she said, we're here just interested in the subject. Is there a problem? I said, no, absolutely not. You're more than welcome, whatever you want, because there's no classification in this briefing. She says, we'll decide in that later, which I thought was real interesting. Well, I went over and immediately told George nap. I said, George, look out there. He said, I saw him. Who are they? Are they you guys? I said, I don't know who they are. They just said they're from their force. They won't say office. But I think you ought to go up there, George, and ask him for an interview. And I don't know if George did, but I don't think it worked. I did have an interview with George there. And I knew one of them was standing back watching me at the interview. And they were there for my presentation. And, you know, I don't care. They left, they didn't stay the whole time. They probably were there three or four days or two, three days. It's still a wild thing to show up at. We addressed in uniform. I mean, that clearly signals an intention. And an interest, you know, they gave away a public interest, a public interest. They gave away the fact that the air force is interested in what was being said at a UFO convention. And what was your talk about? I think that I talked about area 51. I think that was a, you know, I do PowerPoint. That would make sense. I'm very 51. And I didn't give away any classify. I mean, afterwards were a lot of questions asked of me that you couldn't answer. You know, because there was projects out there that I was involved with it that I, that I can't talk about now. I mean, there were, there were probably right off hands five that I'm not going to talk about. And I will never talk about. How many special access programs have you been briefed on? Oh, God. There's different types of briefings. There's a, there's a full briefing and the limited briefing. And then there's access only. It's called access only briefings. Fully briefed probably maybe 20. And again, you know, don't hold me to that. Partial briefings. I don't know because I would be working on something in an OSI agent would be working on something and he needed to help on. So he would come to me and give me a partial briefing and I would help him with that. Access briefing is, is when it happened right now. Like you accidentally saw something and they got a brief you in. Or you're the, you're the uncalled counterintelligence officer like area 51. And they call you and say, Hey, we got a, we got a, they give codes and I can't give it the codes because I think some of them are still classroom. They give you code over the phone. Well, you know what that code means. The code like purple red. I'm just making up something. This isn't a real one. Purple red. There's a purple red at such and such. Okay. Now I know that's emergency. You know, I'll get my little book out and look, okay, I gotta get going to that. And I have to get another agent to go with me. So I have to give him limited briefing. Well, I don't even know what I'm getting to. This is an access. So we get out there and we find a crash site. I'm making this up. Okay. Yeah. A crash site. And there's aliens all over the place. And there's toxic materials all over the place. So I have a checklist. Now there's a checklist. And so you think about this. If there's a checklist for what I'm going to, this is obviously happened in the past. So are you referring to some one, the song one briefing? Like the the manual, the special operations protocol manual. Something like that. Something like that. Okay. Something akin to that. Something akin. Okay. So to get back to you're in this parking lot, you've just had this mind blowing briefing. And now you're on your way to, I guess, meet a witness who's a security guard for at Sandia National last. No, no, no, no, no. That, yeah, that was later. Yeah. Right. But when I got the briefing, I went back to the office. Oh, I see. And I went into my boss's office, John. And I said, he said, he laughed. He's just kind of smile. He said, what do you think? I said, is any of that, I use, you can swear it. Any of that shit real? He says, yeah, I said, come on, John, this is a psychological operation against me. And he said, no, it's real. All that stuff is real. And again, I, you know, okay, I'm, I got a job to do. Yeah. Okay. All right. You say it's real. I, in my mind, it's bullshit. Yeah. You know, so then I go and re-interview the witness in Sandia, the Sandia guard. And he explains all this stuff to me. Tells me what happened. Tells me that his, you know, is the radio and his patrol vehicle, the engine shut off at all these things. Same thing I heard in some briefings, I thought. In the description of the craft, saucer like saucer, saucer shaped. And I thought, so I have to do a report and I have to investigate this. And so I invest, and then I go to the people on the base to try to see if like the air traffic controllers, the radar approach control, did they have anything coming in during that time period? Yes. What did they have on radar? They had something unknown, unknown blitch. Okay. The verifies what his information is. What time period? This period. And then, it was a landing, by the way. It was landing. Were there beings? There were beings. Okay. What happened is there's a alarm structure and alarm meaning there's a alarm on it. A structure in this classified area. Okay, and this security guard had to go out and check this area and this alarm went off. So he had to go out to investigate that, you know, why did this alarm go off? And this, this gets more complicated as I talk and we'll talk about Murna Hansen relating in conjunction with this later. But he had to go out and find out when when he got out there, he sees this flying saucer and he's, is this his words, hovering over this bunker and it's a bunker that's built into the ground. And right off to explain what this means is there's a bunker, this bunker and his experimental bunker to house nuclear weapons. And what it is is he opened the blast doors, there's a, there's a platform, an elevator that goes down 60 feet. So they would store the weapon here, put it on a platform, put it down 60 feet. So if a terrorist or the enemy breaks into the bunker, there's nothing in there because it's underground and that's kind of, that was classified, it's not classified anymore. So that's the bunker that he's, that he went out to check on. He sees a flying saucer above it. It lands. When it lands, his engine shuts off. His mobile radio and his portable radio wouldn't work, don't electricity and then we actually know why that happens. And so he gets out of his patrol vehicle, he gets a shotgun, he has a shotgun and a, and a side arm, but he gets a shotgun out of the, the vehicle. And these two entities, as he calls him, gets out of this craft and they're in suits. They have helmets on, metal, a silvery suits. Their arms were disproportionate to their body. They have like heavy boots on, they have some kind of contraptions in both their hands. And they turn and went to the front of the bunker. Well he, you know, he's a security guard. He has a job to do. He chambers around in a shotgun because the, the policy is he can't have a live round in his, is in the chamber. So he chambered as his 12 gauge shotgun. He chambers around. They hear, apparently they hear that and the weapon is taken out of his hand. He says it's taken out of his hand, it's, it's dropped to the ground. He doesn't, he never could explain to me how that happened. It just got out of his hand. And that's his words. Out of my hands. They don't know what to do. Then he went to foresight arm, but he couldn't get it out of the holster. This thing then, the two entities turned around, came back to the craft, got into craft and it took off. Was the craft like, like one of those seamless platforms that comes out of the structure and then returns or? He could never explain how they came out of what they came out of. I see. And we even put him under hypnosis and all he said was they came out of the craft. He doesn't know if the, if the platform fell, he could never explain that. You, you hypnotize him. Yeah. That we have protocol. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We have a psychologist putting through hypnosis. Yes. Did you guys ever resort to, um, inoculating or using chemicals on people through interrogations? I don't think I can talk about that. Fair enough. So this is your first foray, other than Mario Woods happening where you were not briefed into any of the rest and thought that was just maybe crazy. This is your first foray into someone claiming and then I assume this person seemed legitimate and sincere. Oh, absolutely. He was, and he, a former army, he was in the army before. He, uh, I believe he was an MP. He worked around helicopters. So he knew that this wasn't a helicopter. He'd never seen anything like this before. He'd been working for San Diego for, I think, 12 or 14 years, uh, unblemanisch record, uh, PRP, probably as well. Yeah. Personal reliability program. Um, he worked at it. He worked in a, uh, highly classified area before he went on on patrol, uh, which required it was a special access program. So he had to have a special security class. He had all the tickets punched, um, we gave him a polygraph, which was also pretty standard past no deception indicated. So that helped me blend more into understanding the phenomena of, of, of, of UFOs. So what do you tell him? Do you like his, when someone sees military tack, you tell them it's aliens. What happens when someone sees aliens, you tell them it's military? Well, there was another agent, a senior agent involved, also would be when I took the initial report, did the initial investigation, uh, did all the reports and sent them up to headquarters, the senior agent then became involved in that. And he somewhat took over that. Now what he told them him, um, would have had to been in line with what he already had a security clearance for. Remember, Paul Benowitz didn't have a security clearance. Sure. He had an industrial security contract because he did have a contract with the, but the government making, uh, a, a parched for, uh, weapon systems, but this guy had a security clearance. He's, he had, he had all the tickets punched. He worked in a special access program that involved alien technology or examining them. Really? He, he guarded those areas. So it was difficult to tell him what he saw was government because he wouldn't have believed it. So there, there are other ways of, of, of covering that. You would make him sign an, an NDA or read him in, get read him in. And that's what I believe. Again, the senior agent handle, you don't know exactly what I was, I wasn't involved in that. Exactly. There's no. So yeah. When you're briefed at a certain level, you're not gaslighting these people, you're, you're, you're probably more likely to bring them closer into the, yeah. If a pilot, and I had these happened and, and a seven, uh, uh, uh, jet pilot Air Force pilot, a National Guard, it was an Air National Guard, a Mexican National Guard, had an incident where she had contact in the air and on the ground, uh, I handled that whole case, but I couldn't tell him that it was an Air Force. So he, he knew. So what did you tell him? I, I told him he probably encountered a real thing, you know, although it just went away and, and, you know, he, he had to, he wanted to get back and flying status. Because it's something like that happened. They take you off flying status, you know, and so he, he, he, he didn't want it. So I said, you need to sign something that, that you promise you will never talk about it. Okay. I'll sign it. You want to get back up in the air. Yeah. That's the thing about pilots specifically where it's pretty sensitive in terms of reporting. Yeah. And even, even like personal mental health or anything like that just like takes you out of the sky. Um, so when something happens, let's say, cause, cause you've obviously with Paul, with the Paul Benowicz case, you know, you had to keep him going and saying, Hey, this is, yeah, you're right. It is aliens or whatever. Um, so that you would detract him from what really was going on at the base, but when things are of potential alien origin, do you sometimes tell them that it's just advanced tech when a civilian is reporting something like that? Absolutely. Yeah. So would you, would it be safe to assume from a civilian's point of view that the Air Force Office of Special Investigations is essentially what they refer to as the men in black from a civilian point of view? Yeah. Um, in a way. Yeah. But, but, but, but, but the men in black is something entirely different within government structures. Uh, we had a, uh, unit within a 76 or second year intelligence wing at Fort Belvoir. They, they were the dirty tricks people, okay? And, um, they didn't want to kill people or anything like that. But they're the ones, if we, OSI couldn't convince somebody or if we needed something, uh, that we couldn't get, we'd bring in these people and these were the bunch of, uh, we called them the thugs. I mean, they were the knuckle draggers. They were the guys. It would, uh, the, the, the military recruited out of, uh, some place else that, that didn't have the unblemished records. They didn't, they weren't the Harvard grads or the Dartmouth grads. Uh, they were the, uh, rag tag bunch, uh, probably, uh, played football or soccer or rugby. And these guys, uh, had been in a ballroom, bar halls and, and they're the type of guys that did things off the record, so to speak unethically, would you say to some extent? Uh, you know, probably, yeah, yeah, um, but because they're not part of, uh, uh, uh, they're the OSI they you have plausible deniability so that if you know anybody comes back and says hey you sent these thugs over who said they were going to bury us in the desert for talking about this stuff you can just say that wasn't us we have no idea who those people were exactly and almost all of them were sheep dipped if you know what sheep dip is yeah so they were they would have IDs they were postal workers or or whatever IDs they they could get a hold of and they if you checked it would be legitimate some of my have been worked for some construction company or something like that if they were caught yeah now and some were you know caught either by us or by the civilian police and there were ways to get them out of what they they did and it wasn't my job it was the Department of Justice already had been briefed into all this stuff so and I'm not sure how that worked but there were cases where they got caught doing what we told them ask them to do yeah wow it does seem like a lot of skullduggery happens within these organizations to maintain secrecy a lot yeah and that's part of I mean counter intelligence as well like there's a whole other you know when we think of counter intelligence I think not myself but I think when a lot of people think of counter intelligence and especially I think the names that come up are yourself in Luella'sondo in this space yeah you know people often they they immediately go to a disinfo agents and there's there's a whole facet of counter intelligence that definitely deals with miss mal or disinformation yeah but there is also a whole other side of counter intelligence that deals with espionage that deals with other countries foreign adversaries and that type of thing so how would you to the average viewer looking at this scrutinizing you know the counter intelligence being involved in the ufology how would you sort of justify the presence of counter intelligence in regards to UFOs well we the job of the Air Force Office Special Investigations specifically the special projects branch which I worked in and we call them pj's different from pair rescue and when I would say that on the air they say what I meant pj's or pair rescue no special projects that our code was pj our job was protect materials classification class side material special access programs sensitive compartment information under title of 50 prevent that information from getting into the enemy hands and we would do everything in our power to protect that information our job was to protect the classified projects special action special access programs or our sensitive aircraft new aircraft from that technology from getting into the enemy hands and back in the days it was a Soviet Union the the red Chinese North Korean Cuba so we did everything in our powers to do that and that may involve a deception operations which the this probably calls disinformation it's deception operations using misinformation okay that's a job counter intelligence and counter espionage is part of counter intelligence we've ran counter espionage operations against UFO groups because of who was in that group somebody that's not native remember we are a free society the Soviets or Russians are not back in my days it was a Soviets the Soviets could penetrate us because we're an open society and guess what the number one group they always penetrated UFO groups we had Soviet operators in you mufon cause at pro all these different groups to get information and this is what people don't realize is that mufon the reason we a counter intelligence penetrated mufon and at pro and cause these other UFO groups was to keep track of the other hostile intelligence services penetrating them you don't realize you can't realize the number of of not Soviet spies but I would say Soviet influencers that were in these groups not just Soviets that even to Chinese and people within the group and why well believe it or not mufon or at pro got information that the government didn't have john doe see something he doesn't report it to the air force he reports it to a UFO group by phone back then the internet wasn't around and now mufon sends field investigators out to investigate this those fulfill the investigators unless it's something that it's going to affect national security then I'm going to come to the military so we have to have people in a group that know what these investigators are doing in order to report back to us so that's why that complex net west nest uh that we that involves counter intelligence yeah I suppose where people might be a little um I guess put off by that information would be okay you're infiltrating for national security in order to perhaps fend off foreign adversaries from getting access to this information but with the same with the same stroke you're also misrepresenting what happened to a lot of the experiencers a lot of the investigators you know your it's your job also to mitigate that information in a way that protects you know sensitive uh sites or real sightings protect the secret from going out um do you think that that is still an effect today or I mean I would assume so oh absolutely mufon all these different organizations are completely infiltrated and there's nothing that goes on there that isn't overseen by intelligence agencies you would say yeah there's a bill more and every every one of those groups well I'm glad you I'm glad you brought him up um how many bill morris were there when bill more was around a lot of bill morris but he was what he was a person that I recruited I handled him uh that we sent into the he was already members of the group of course and all we asked him to do was report back anything of significant values we call the EIs essential elements of information within intelligence that uh might affect national security but also to disseminate information that came later okay and that's probably the uh one regret if if I had to do it all over again I would not be part of that I was part of providing bill with disinformation to set send in to discredit the uh you a UFO group and um there was somebody else um also doing that within the CIA now and this isn't classified anymore bill more was was being handled by both because bill more had contacts uh within the Soviet Union uh he knew scientists within the Soviet Academy of Science and he was communicating with him so the CIA was involved in that and we were involved in the other side of it what bill was doing if there he was a very important asset uh to us and there was another person that um was actually feeding the disinformation uh to bill more that went to these groups um it it always I was always hesitant about that but you know I have a job to do he had the job to do and we did it we did our job we were told to do this and we did what we were told to do so that's the only part of of that that I I I still regret I did everything by the book before that I think we could have probably not I think we could have changed what would you have done differently I wouldn't have I wouldn't have targeted people within the group because those people within that group uh and then there was only one occasion I'm talking about uh these these two people were legitimately collecting really really good information from a person who had a a close encounter um in Nevada and um not far from close to Dallas Tested Training Range and We were, we, and I was part of it, was trying to convince, first of all, we tried to convince these two investigators that they're not, you know, they shouldn't be reporting. They shouldn't listen to this person. We've already investigated him. He's a liar. Just forget it. Well, they knew he wasn't, and we knew he was. So they had this other agent, would had to put more pressure on these two investigators with their Mufon. It was Mufon, out of Nevada. They're very good people, too, and to try to convince them that they're not to listen to that guy. And I don't, I think, I think at the end, they won, we lost, because they didn't buy anything that we were saying. And sometimes we weren't always successful in deception operations. I can tell you right now, we try our best, but there were only certain things we can do. Even if we brought in the thugs from the 7602nd Intel, we, you know, they, we had to operate under the law, mostly under the law. I mean, there were stretches you could, you could do things, but, you know, I never went above and beyond the law. I mean, I, I, I, I knew what our limits were. And there were times when we went right up and said, listen, this is it. We can't do anything more. Whatever they do, they're on their own. And I can say, we don't know, we didn't always win. We have it. I mean, just even the, the notion of being fed misinformation or being, you know, having that information injected into a group. And then, you know, someone like Bill Moore in 89 at that famous move on symposium where he confessed to, you know, being part of that, I mean, that itself tarnishes, you know, not only his reputation, but also the organization's reputation. And we don't know what information is to be believed from that point on. So I, I would say that you did succeed. Um, there's, you know, although perhaps those people believed or didn't believe or refused to believe what you were telling them, I think at the end of the day, the damage is done. Because as you know, encounter intelligence, I'm sure you don't have to prove something. You just have to say it enough times and then people repeat it. In terms of, you know, let's look at, let's take a look at the 80s because there's a lot of stuff that came out in terms of like declassified or classified document leaks, namely the majestic 12 stuff. A lot of the stuff that came, you know, to Jamie Shanderra and to, you know, I mean, to a lot of researchers, tables, and then this came out, um, who am I thinking of here? Timothy, um, Timothy Good, Timothy Good and Ryan Woods, you know, had, had a lot of work on the MJ 12 documents as well. I don't even know how to ask this. That part of the MJ 12 document was there a part of that that you or anyone you know of your organization was involved in putting out there. And if so, specifically, which part? Well, I can't answer whether other people in the organization was involved and I'm sure they were. I wasn't involved in it. The first time I saw that document was when, which document, particularly the MJ 12 that Jamie Shanderra, okay, there's a, there's a lot more to that than than just him getting that document. He got some, he was in Washington, D.C. a two weeks before meeting with somebody because Jamie was part of another operation. He was an asset that was being used by the Naval Investigative Service, which is now a Naval Criminal Investigative Service. Back then it was just NIS. And they were, they were, and I'm not going to go into that details, but he was, he went back to Washington. He went back to the botanical gardens. He met there and they told him some things. A two weeks later or roughly two weeks later, he gets the document in the mail. Stappmark, Albuquerque in New Mexico. But that is another thing. That's a fake marking because when FBI did analysis on it, they said, this isn't a postal marking, but that's beside the point. Anyways, he gets it. What I'm getting, I didn't go through the mail system. It was placed in his box. I see it was dead dropped. Yeah, dead dropped. And so he gets this, he immediately contacts Bill Moore and Bill says, well, don't do anything with it. You know, let me see it and analyze it. And then at some time, some other time, I, he shows it to me. Bill Moore shows it to me, but he shows me a copy. Now, and we're in San Francisco, okay? Bill Moore meets me there and we, we were doing something entirely different, but Bill says, I got something I want you to look at, but we can't do it here. We have to go someplace private. I said, well, what is it? He said, it's a document. I said, where'd you get it? He said, they got it from Jamie. He doesn't give me the whole details. Anyways, I said, well, go to the hotel room. He shows it to me. I immediately take it from him. I said, Bill, this is classified. What the hell did you get it from? He said, oh, it's a copy of a copy. I said, where's the original? Jamie has it. So I take it. I see that document being, I'm an OSI, I'm a federal age. I see that because it shows classification on it. So I said, okay, so I'm in San Francisco, the closest facility around a military facility is Travis Air Force Base in Fairfield. So I go out to the OSI office there. And I said, I see this from somebody, you need to package it. Do the package in the stop secret. You got to go through the Armed Forces Curious System to get it to wherever. Anyways, when you want us to do with it, I said, well, I want you to mail it to me at Curtlyn. So they do that. I sent it to headquarters. When I go back, four or five days later, I get it. I package it and send it to headquarters. I never hear anything more. I call, I call, I said, hey, geez, you get the, oh, I know they got the package because I have to go through an Armed Forces Curious System because it's the top secret code word. Yeah. I said, and the guy I talk to, his last name is Benjamin. I said, hey, Benji, we calling Benji. Benji, did you get that package? Yeah. He said, he said, I put it through the channel and it's been a month, probably, and I haven't heard anything back from it. I said, so what are they going to do? I don't know, a lot of my hands. So I go and I thought, well, maybe the investigative side of it, the guy's investigating espionage or handling it. So I get a whole of one of them. I said, what are you doing at the document? He says, it's been passed on. I said, well, what are they going to do with it? He said, I don't know. But you don't need to know, Dodie. It's okay. I was out of it. Then I, you know, I'm somewhat intelligent. I went to college. I could figure out what two and two is. I thought, that's a disinformation. That's a deception operation that just occurred. Do you think that was from CIA or from your department? Well, there's a, there's a, a special office within the Defense Intelligence Agency, also the Central Intelligence Agency. It's named differently within the DIA and it's not classified anymore, a special means committee. The special means committee creates documents for mostly counter-espionage operations. Right. Yeah. Passage material. Yeah. You run a counter-enterespinage operation. You have to give it a little real stuff in order for the Soviets to believe it or whoever you're targeting. Sure. And so they do that. Wow. So I kind of figured that probably can't amount of there. I don't know for a fact. Sure. Yeah. Now, when, when this was all being investigated back in '87 and '88, the FBI pretty much targeted the DIA, but the DIA denies it. So I don't know. The FBI had helped in, didn't the FBI go to the, go to OSI in, in determining that it was bogus? Now, well, that's, that's where the crux is, because whether it's real or not, I mean, they're going to [BLANK_AUDIO] and I at outright either way. - There was a meeting when, and I found this out years later, not then, not during the year. - Sure. - I was sitting at a UFO convention and one of the current law, he was chief of counterintelligence for OSI, he showed up towards the end of this UFO convention. And I actually went to the airport and got him and brought him there. And anyways, we were sitting and talking, and he's, and the subject came up of Ryan Wood's doctor as the father. And he said, "Wow, I never thought that stuff would end up where it ended up." And I said, "Colonel, I said, that's stuff real?" He said, "Richard, how many counter espionage operations did you run?" I said, "Well, quite a few." You realize you have to give them the real stuff, some of the real stuff. And that's all I said to me. So the Mj12 documents contain some legitimate information, mixed in with some bullshit information. - But none of that you can confirm. - I can't because I didn't, yeah, I was in awe of it. Just like, it's just like when Linda Howe incident happened. I don't know if you want to talk about that. - Sure, if you want to, if you want to talk about it. - We don't know who Linda Howe is. She, was it any of me now, she's a friend of mine. I was tasked with an operation to bring her in and breathe her on something because of what she was doing. - The documentary, she was working on HBO. - And so this is actually what happened. About a week before she was doing the Albuquerque, oh, so I already knew that she was coming to Albuquerque. And they told me, you need me to make appointment and we're gonna send you something and we want her to read this. I said, "Okay." So, she's already contacted Jerry Miller, who was part of this. And so, I ended up going and picking her up. Oh, the day before, the afternoon before, this was to occur, we had a place to interview her. And there was a two-way mirror and she was, everything was gonna be recorded. Audio and video, video. And I get a package in from the Armed Forces Courier. I opened it and I kinda looked through it but I didn't really read everything. The day of her meeting, just before I went out to pick her up to bring her to the gate 'cause she had to be cleared in. I read it, I went through the document and I said, "Holy cow, this is presidential briefing document." But the counterintelligent officer in me says, "I wanna know how much of this is real." So, anyway, she comes in, I give her the spiel. I said, "You can read this, you can't take notes, "you can't photograph it," and so she reads it. And she asked me, "How long do I have?" I said, "You can read it in a couple of different times." So, she took her probably 35, 40 minutes. She read everything several times. I took it back, I put it back in the desk. I packaged it up. I sent it back to headquarters. And that's my beginning of using her as a source of information. Now, I find out later that they were gonna do this operation against her, and it's being handled in headquarters. I'm not with me. I was just a field agent handling what they asked me to handle. I wasn't actually the case agent. That was being done in headquarters. She was to do a documentary for HBO on UFOs. And she had information that she obtained from an Air Force officer who worked at the Pentagon. My job was to get the name of that officer. So, we could run a case against him because he disclosed classified information to her. So, that's why I handled Linda, and she was a tough cook. I was totally unsuccessful. I never got anything from her. She's very smart. She would give me other information, but names, I never get that from her. Yeah, Linda's tenacious, to say the least. Yeah, that's a good word for her. Yeah. Okay, but getting back to it. The information that she was reading, you don't know. I actually only had access to it for that short period of time because I had to send it back. I read it. I read the document. I read the same thing she read. And I thought it was amazing what they were giving her. But I thought, it can't be real. I mean, some of it probably is. Now, over the years, I've learned that some of that is real and then some of it isn't. So, what have you created that isn't real? I create, we mean during my time in OSI. I didn't create anything. No material. No, I would not be allowed to do that. No, so you know, but what information did you pass on? Okay. That was given to you that you know for a fact wasn't real that people took us through. Oh, okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. There was an incident involving a civilian that saw something, it was actually an experimental craft. It was the first prototype of the Aurora, which was being developed at the same time that the F117 was at Tonapai, that same time period. This guy saw this and I had to give him information on a UFO, I made, we made up, OSI made up the story about a UFO that occurred, sighting of occurred the same time he saw this real craft. So, everything I gave him about that UFO was false. I mean, everything, it came down from headquarters. I even probably abolished a lot of that stuff to convince him and he was thoroughly convinced. And then I had him sign an NDA. Wow. So, that was one of, I mean, I probably did it. Well, I know I did it other times. This is a funny story about Nellis test and training range while we were out there, when I was out there at Groom Lake. Back in those days, in the late '70s and '80s, prostitution was legal in Nevada. Most counties had Nye County, which most of the testing range encompassed Nye County, a little bit of Lincoln and a little bit of Clark. Our job was to go out and recruit every single prostitute around the Nellis test and range and pay them to inform us when an Air Force person came in and talked about anything dealing with their job. - Wow. - And we did that. And I tell you what, the best sources of information are those prostitutes. - No way. - Because we actually ran a case against a pilot. - Because of? - He came in, he used one particular prostitute all the time. He was a major and he was flying the 117. - Oh wow. - And he would come in and try to impress her by telling her stories about the F-119, and he was doing 117, 119. And that could do all these strange things and even we could chase flying saucers with him and all this stuff. - Well, when we visited, what she called us, we had a special phone number. She called us as she said, "I got some information for you." So she was at prompt. - Were they paid? - Oh, well paid. - So in the Air Force paid prostitutes? - Yeah, well paid, but not for anything just for the information. So I go out there with another agent and we go in and she says, she gives us his name and she tells us everything he said. And I said, he told you this stuff, yeah. I don't know if it's any of it's true, and they don't know it. I said, okay. I said, how often does he come in here? She said, once every couple of weeks, well, they could only get off every, whatever it was. I don't know, I don't remember now. Periodically, he would come in. I said, does he make an appointment? And she said, yeah. I said, next time he calls and make a appointment, let's, no, we're gonna put a, we're gonna bug the room. And so she doesn't, we bug it and we get, and he's, she's just asking him questions. Hey, remember he's told me about that. Plain it you guys are flying out there and the flying saucers and stuff and then he went on Like 20 some minutes talking about it So she calls us and says hey, you know, he left and I turned it off like you told us to and we could about get it And then we go pay him a visit at the dormit tonapa, you know, and it's funny He's in this dorm and you know, he's officer built he's a major And he has a sweet and then I knock on the door he opens it in his face just well Hmm, he do I said you know, especially in Victoria's OSI and he talked to you He says, okay, I said but not here you're gonna go with me We're gonna go over the OSI office which we had one at tonapa He says you want me to bring anything with me? I said no, just your ID just you know so Put him in the vehicle. He's We get him in the office tape put him in the interrogation room and what you do is you put him in there And there's a camera and they know the cameras on and we sit him there and we look what him will let him wait Because this is gonna be a interrogation. It's not gonna be an interview And that's guys married. Mm-hmm. That's two children So we come in and I come in with the eight other agent. I sit down. I said Major He said, I know you're gonna talk about I said shut your mouth. Don't even talk to me yet He's I said when I ask you a question you can answer it Hey sir you sir and I tell him I kind of give him a preamble Not mentioning the thing directly. Sure. I said, you know, you're a major in the United States Air Force You've been a pilot for whatever it was 14, 15 years. You're flying one of the most expensive and most classified aircraft the Air Force has and You're married, right? You got two kids Your wife's at Edwards Air Force Base. You're here And you can't keep it in your pants He starts crying. Yeah, it's not funny, but he starts crying He said, okay, I said but but but before I ask any questions I have to read this to you. It's your article 31. That's a fifth amendment in the military I read him as you know right to me silent and all that stuff And I pulled in the document. I said you just sign there in the bottom that you acknowledge it and he does I said so now we're gonna talk if you want to talk But remember what's going to happen if you don't talk to me when you leave that room But you don't have to talk to me. Yeah, and he talked. Yeah, of course he made it everything. Yeah, he took off line status He's sending back to Edwards and he he Eventually he just took him off that program I don't know really what happened. I mean, I think he went back to flying status, but not anything classified it I guess you had to have the prostitute as well sign NDAs. Oh, yeah, in that case They don't know. Yeah, we do, but they're not liable to really talk about it They keep their mouth shut. Yeah, they're good. They're good at keeping secrets. They're very good. I would have been sick Yeah, and that wasn't just that was one of many sure cases that we we so quite successful Very very successful. Yeah, I said that therefore spent a lot of money in the prostitution around but we never we've never got anything from information. Yeah On the books at least. Yeah Okay, so towards the End of the eighties now we've you know, we've gone through So many things in terms of documents coming forward prominent researchers being sort of outed as as You know part of a disinformation campaign um Lot is going on in ufology But then in 1988 there is a TV special which you're on um the UFO cover up on on TV and well Your hidden under the alias falcon if i'm not mistaken and then there's also um Uh What was it it was condor? uh was the other was the other person and you pop Collins that's silence. That's right and You go on there talking about a lot of really interesting things now. I want to know Did that come from Your own volition or was that Was that an order to do something like that? Where did that come from where did the the where the impetus Well number one that wasn't live That was recorded a year before right Uh, and that was part of another operation And that came from OSI yeah, I've came from OSI so they were because that's the that was 87 not eighty oh 87 my bad and it was so strange because you know you're basically making public What You were the same information that you were giving to Paul Benowitz What was the call there why go from hey, we're gonna You were gonna you know keep this contains and control the situation to now go public with this thing like uh, what was the reason what um OSI was trying to This that was part of an OSI and FBI investigation. They were trying trying to draw somebody out I see and they were hoping that what I said now at the time I did that interview I didn't know about what was going to happen a year later. Actually it was like 15 months before The October 87 interview All right, boom boom the movie. Yeah when it came out when it came out when yeah, so I didn't know uh that all that the lid was gonna get blown. No, yeah, and and so They were hoping and I wasn't involved in this part of it. They were hoping to draw out somebody that they were looking for That had Disclosed classified information to somebody else and so I had a script Okay, and were you aware of what parts of that script were fabricated Confabulated in which parts were maybe real Most of what I said was um Was real Uh, but there was some probably misinformation in there and what I don't remember You know, I don't remember okay the strawberry ice cream probably no the strawberry ice cream was real I mean strawberry really got absolutely the strawberry ice cream Go back and ask Linda howl Okay, Linda howl had the um she interviewed and the uh the captain that lived with evil one okay from 47 And he used the the strawberry ice cream he that that was started back in 1980 When Linda howl heard that from the captain And what was the reason to include that I feel like that feels like this information it does and is that why yeah Because it's so it's gonna believe it. It's so about landish. We're just gonna throw that in there. Yeah wow um So that was officially authorized it was a it was a project it was a Is was there a name to that project? Oh, I'm sure there was but I don't recall it. I don't know what the name is now and then the whole idea of like the aviary And that sort of that was what was that about Well, the aviary was created by Jamie Shanderra and um and and and others. I can't even think of her name Uh Tracy Um Okay, what was it? What's her name? Anyways, that was created by them Mm-hmm because of of the uh The working group that I was a part of That uh howl put off kit green uh scott uh Uh What's his name uh Senator Pell's aid Um and and others that we would meet Richard Helms was actually the falcon. He was a The part of control. I was just a a really low person on a On a totem pole so to speak and I I did a lot of fetching things for them and and the security clearances and stuff for them when they had meetings and Jamie Shanderra got wind of that And he named these people The aviary we we found out about that after the after you know, it was out in the public. They think uh Uh fill class. Yeah fill class was Interesting stuff uh what's also interesting and this is something I wanted to mention and not something I've ever talked about before but um so in There is evidence that I have That shows um you from a davicopper field. Yes. His father Was stationed in Roswell. I have a picture of his ID from 1945 uh i wrote Roswell Air Force Base, and he was counterintelligence. - Hello. - At Roswell. - I didn't know that. - Now I have, yeah, not a lot of people do. Nobody does, actually, but I did some digging 'cause I have, I just thought this was an interesting overlap as well, being is that the most recognizable deception artist of our time, David Copperfield, had a father who may or may not have been part of the Roswell cover-up. - It was the driving force for David's show in Vegas for many, many years, which involved the UFO and alien, like he had this whole Vegas show. And what started that was him going through his father's things when his father passed and finding his ID. - Never do that. - Yeah, so there's his ID. And if you see here, it says Squadron C6. And that's not an actual squadron that flew. - Wow. - Yeah, so the last name's different, obviously. It's not Pearl and Field now. - Yeah. - That's amazing. - Interesting. - Very interesting. - Yeah, so he might have known more than, I believe his mother was also stationed there near Roswell, and so yeah. - Interesting, interesting tidbits. - Very interesting. Were you ever tasked, you know, because we hear this, you know, whether it's, you know, I interviewed John Ramirez, who was here as well, who's, you know, XCIA, Louis Alazondo. And we know for a fact now that you're never fully an X information agent, you know what I mean? Were there ever instances where you were called upon? And I'm not going to, you know, ask you for specifics that those are classified, but were there ever instances that you were called upon after you left the OSI that had to do with UFOs? - Yes. - Okay. Would that be prior to 2015 or after? - Prior. - Prior, never after? - No, never after. - Okay, and this was between 2002, 2003 and 2015, somewhere there where you would. - I left government service in 1988. I was recalled in 1991 to work on a project and again in '94. And then after 2002, I was a contract and employee for a while. - You were a contract employee for the OSI? - Just leave it at US intelligence. And it had to do with the UFO topic. - Not all of it. I would say 50/50. - Was that in a monitoring capacity or in a sort of, did you have to inject yourself into this in order to, you know, throw some information into the mix that perhaps wasn't true? - No. - No? - I worked for Dr. Putoff from '94 to 2007. - I see. - And so-- - I see, I understand. - I understand, okay. Someone else was interested in how putoffs work. Okay. Wow, interesting. Would Hal be aware of that, you think? - Yeah. - Oh yeah. - Oh yeah. - Smart guy. - It's very smart. - Brilliant person. - Yeah, can't put much past him. - No. - How many sacs do you think he was right into? - Oh, God. You know, it was so much, when I first started working for him, I didn't have a, it took for a while for me to get a DARPA clearance, okay? And he would be working on things in his own skiff and I would, he would tease me, but he would never tell me. But when I got the clearance, I was only on a need to know. There were times when I would go into the skiff and there would be a meeting and we'd sit and talk and then there would, you know, we'd talk for an hour, the scientist and his other texts. And then he'd say, Rick, bye. And I'd leave. And then we're working on something that I didn't have access to. I just didn't have a know. But I would say dozens and probably more. He had, and this is a secret, but he had, or proprietary, 'cause a lot of things I can't talk about. He had, in a certain area of the lab, pieces of extraterrestrial material that he was trying to figure out. - And is that part of the reason why you were contracted? - Partially. - No, partially. It was because of my counterintelligence work and what I could do and what I could, because a lot of what I did was I went out to talk to people. He sent me out, did interview people that had some connections. I interviewed, you know, we went to South Dakota and I went to South Dakota with some other people from the lab to dug up something because in 1958, I think it was, I can't remember a year, but in the 50s or early 60s, you have all the crash on his ranchers land. And he never told anybody about it. He buried it. - No way. - Yeah, he buried it. And his grandson is the one that got a hold of somebody who got a hold of somebody, who got a hold of Dr. Putoff. And then I was the one that went to South Dakota to try to find what did you bury? And the only thing that the grandson knew because his grandfather was dead and his father was dead, this is just a grandson. - Yeah. - And it was that it was buried in this one area that there's nothing grows around it. And they water it and water it and nothing grows. So this was the place. So we, that's about all I can talk about. - Did you see anything? - We saw a lot. - You saw what they took out of the ground? - Somebody, somebody saw what was taken out of the ground and it went someplace, but at that time, it was thrown over to the government. - Right, Pat. - No, this was in, no, I went to probably Groom Lake, I guess. - So this was in 2002, I think. - Okay. - Wow. - No, 2000. - And the crash would have happened in the 50s or early 60s? - Yeah. - Yeah. - Is that near, was that near any type of radar base? - It was south, west corner of the state, south of the Keystone, it was just, yeah. - So, I don't, there's L's worth air force base, it's still there, it was a couple of hundred miles from there, but was, - I think it was actually near, no. Later on, a minimum site. - Okay. - But, it didn't have, didn't have one there. - Well, that's really interesting, so you weren't, so you were right into that program, you were right into that recovery, then I guess. - I was right into it, yeah. - Well, partially, I didn't handle anything, I didn't analyze anything. I just set everything up, and then other people came in and didn't. - So you had partial access? - Yeah, just limited. - Limited. - And how many limited partial accesses have you had to other crashes? Would you say? - Four? - I guess. - But that was, that was, during my OSI career, that was, yeah, that was in the seventies and eighties. - So you had quite a few. - I was actually at one crash site. I was there, but the crash happened years before, but they found it, they discovered it. And I went there as part of a team to do the counterintelligence work regarding the people who found the way the crash site. But this crash site was in 60 some time into sixties. - And it was undiscovered. And a mining exploration team from some company was doing work in this shaft and they found it in this mine shaft. And now that's another, I mean, I don't know anything other than they found it. And what, when we went there-- - You went on site. - We went on site. It was assumed because of a lot of factors that the other investigators, not me, because of where it was, that this thing had crashed here outside this mine shaft [BLANK_AUDIO] miners didn't know what to do with it. So they put it in the mineshaft. And, you know, they had it in there and I don't know why they never reported it to anybody or maybe they did. There's no record that I know. Or maybe they're way record, you know, don't hold me to that because we went there and they had found it in the shaft. - And they extracted it? - They extracted it out. The government, the dark team did it, that started. Especially the down aircraft recovery team did it. And they pulled it out and, you know, they, it took them, I don't think they even got inside of it until they got it to Tonapal. And now jump ahead, when I was out there, this is before I went to Tonapal, I mean, to, now let's test the training range, I checked on that while I was there. And they had, they still had that craft there. - The desk? - It did the desk, yeah, it was a desk. And it was a small one. It was not that big. It was, you saw it? - Yeah, I saw the craft. Yeah, it was there at the crash site. And I saw them pull it out. And it was, it was, it was, it was, probably five feet in diameter. So they, but they couldn't get into it. They can't, they couldn't find an opening. - It was like a solid. - Yep. Well, they did eventually, but not during that time, when I was there, I didn't see anybody. - How long did it take them to get in? - I don't know. Like I said, that was, 1980, '81. I was there '84. They had got it open four years, maybe three or four years. I don't know exactly how they did that. - Plasma cutters, or something. And what I don't know is whether they found bodies in there. They would have had them in many bodies. I mean, they might have had a big two feet tall. - That was very small. - It was like a drone ship or something. - It could very well be. I think, I think somebody told me that was probably a scout ship that crashed for some reason. There was damage. It's funny because they couldn't get in it, but the part of it was indented. You know, I guess when they hit the ground, or I don't know exactly how, but there was part of it that was indented. So, you know, of course I don't know technology, like others do, but why did it take them so long? I mean, we had diamond cutters and source of things back in those days, but they obviously got it open. But I don't know what they found in there. I was never privy to that. - Was that the first time you saw with your own eyes of UFO? Was that the last? - No. - Let's go, tell me about another UFO you saw. - While I was at, I can't, I gotta be very careful. While I was at the story I gave you earlier about being on call and getting a call I did, but you're my partner went out to a place outside the Dallas test and training range up near Warm Springs. There had been a crash. And that's about all I can say, talk about it, because there's a lot of other things that happened that could very well still be classified. - Were there beings involved? - Yes. - You saw the beings? - I didn't see the beings, no. - You saw the crash. - The beings were, well, let me say this, when I got there-- - Who's cleaned out? - No, the bodies were covered. - Oh, I see. - So I didn't actually, I can't say, you know, I'd say, yeah, I saw the body, well, no, they're covered. So I'm not gonna say that because I didn't see the bodies. I don't know what they, they looked probably fight, at least five foot. I'm just looking at-- - Yeah, you assumed that those were alien bodies. - Yeah, I assume they were alien bodies. Yeah, they were covered up. The other agent that came later that had access to everything in a world about that, he took over, man. I was just, remember I was a duty on call and I went out there initially. I set up the counterintelligence ring we, as we called it, the highway, the state trooper, and the night county sheriff's deputy that was unseen because-- - You had to debrief them and-- - Yeah, I did all that stuff. And the contracted a trucking company out of Hawthorne, Nevada, to come and put it on a flatbed. I guess we didn't have one, we got government in him. And I had to make that arrangements with that trucking company. And I had to make sure that the driver, this is funny. When I was making the arrangements, this is Hawthorne. And there's an army base there at Hawthorne, in Nevada. It's a depot where they make bombs. And so this trucking company worked out there a lot. - So you still classified scenarios as sensitive, yeah. - So I said, I need a driver that had been in the military and they can take orders. And the woman that was coordinating this with said, why? Because I just need it. Or we'll have to go to another trucking company. She said, we take bombs all the time out to Hawthorne and I said, listen man, this is what I need. So I get this guy. He's the foreman of a certain section of the trucking company. He, I go there and I sit him down. I said, you're gonna pick something up and you're gonna take it from here day there. And he said, okay. I said, you know, you can't ask questions. My lips are sealed. I said, so you agreed to do this. You agreed to sign this, he said, I've done it before. I said, you've done it before. He said, yeah, he's talking about these round things. And I said, what do you mean round things? He said, well, before I took picked up a round thing and took it out to the base. Okay, you're the guy. - Wow. - You're the guy I want. And so he went and did the thing, it was. - You watch it happen? - No, no, no, the other agent that was in charge today. I did all this setup. - All the paperwork stuff, all the setup. - I did not, I was not there during that time. - That's what counterintelligence does. They funnel all the information. You create the classifications. You talk to, you debrief the people, give them cover stories, tell the agents what to tell the press, like that type of thing, right? - Exactly. And the craft itself, that's the other guys. - Did you have conversations with those guys? - I would have to coordinate, yeah, it would be coordination. - I mean, philosophical conversations. Did you guys speak about the origins? Did you guys speak about what you think it is? Like off-record, like, of course. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And were they able to give you information that you would never even thought of? Or did they seem legitimately like really well versed in this topic, like they had information that was really pertinent to this, like origin or reason, or, you know, whom, why, where, what, like all these speculative things that we talk about, did you get access to some of that? - No. - Through those conversations? - We would talk philosophically, but I didn't have a need to know. - Right, so it was all-- - That information, and I tell you what. Within intelligence community, I don't care if you're my best friend. You might be able to take a bullet for me. You know, we're guns, too, remember? But I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna tell you something. - Yeah, you're not gonna break here. - No, yeah. - I'm not gonna do that. And that's the way it was. We would talk philosophically-- - You talk with aliens. - About, yeah, you know, these guys, I bet you there are. There's a base on Mars, or, you know, we, or maybe Venus isn't what it, you know, things like that, we would talk about where they come from. Maybe they're coming from Mars. Maybe they're coming from Pluto, and you know, things like that we would talk about, but they would never say, you know, they, they came from, you know, epsilon ready, or some, you know, no, they would never say that. - Okay. - Man, does that, was that feel like seeing something like that? - Well, going all the way back to my briefing, and not believing any of it, every single time I was exposed to an exotrustral craft or something to do with an exotrustral being, it's strength in my belief that, yeah, everything that I was briefed on is fact. - What did that feel like? - Scary, in a way, because one of the things that people don't like to talk about, and I don't like to talk about it in great details, is I was brought up at Catholic. I went to Progyll School, I was an older boy, I believed in God, you know, I did my prayers, and did my, you know, my, you know, confertunity in everything. And I spent some time in a monastery before I even went to high school. So I had a strong religious belief. Now, one of the questions that people always ask me, and I ask myself, itself is, okay, God created the universe. So I guess he created the aliens too. Did he? Some of the things we learned or learned to how I was written about Iba I, he claims that they put a, even on a humanoid on a planet 2,000 years ago, was that Jesus? You know, these questions I have, if I always had, and when, when I had the briefing, I have to, you know, okay, wait a minute. Is this for real? Okay, it's for real. Are these things made by God? This is something I think about, and other people have too. And if you connect the dots, could it affect the way other people believe in their religion? And that's something I really don't like to get into. I mean, I, I've settled myself, but there were other people out there that, you know, the, the revelation that this guy, several years ago, did on a UFO convention that some of the extraterrestrial characters are similar to Tibetan characters. What does that mean? That they lived here on Earth? Are they, they created Tibetans? Or, you know, there's all these questions that, that people have to think about. Yeah, it is, it is pretty, it does get pretty existential when you start thinking about that and thinking about, you know, the, what that means for us here, why we're here, why they want to be here with us or why their presence is here. And I'm looking at the list as I speak to you here of like these different, these different names. And I, I have no idea what to make of this. Like personally, I, I don't know what to make of any of this, what to make of, because, you know, as you can probably assume someone who's very well versed in counterintelligence, I'm a magician, probably the most skeptical person out there, in terms of, you know, understanding methodory, in terms of, you know, all the, all the methods on how to obtain information secretly or how to misdirect and all of this. You know, I'm giving all this everything you're telling me and it's a melting pot of a thousand different things. With all the years that you have, you know, built into this and all the information that you've gathered, all the secret things that you've seen that you can't talk about and the people you've spoken with and the projects you've worked on, is there one overarching thing that neatly packages everything I'll, you know, passport to Magonia, Jacques Vallet, control system, or are we dealing with like a thousand separate things? Separate things. You think so? I think the one, the one thing that convinced me beyond anything else that I had access to was listening to this Air Force Sergeant, a female who was abducted countless times, went through literally torture by these extraterrestrials, having marks on her hands. He took her fingernails off or toenails off. She was bleeding from her vaginal area almost every, after every abductions, bleeding from the eye, ruption or ear drum ones. And then a lot of things that we did in a surveillance capacity to confirm what she says, that convinced me that there are, they weren't humans doing this to her. They were extraterrestrials. Now, were the extraterrestrials interdimensional? I don't know. You know, there's an argument can be made, but there were, there were non-humans doing this to her. And I wish I could tell you how we know. But believe me, the government knows that these were extraterrestrials that were doing this to her. You surveilled it? There was, we actually did. We had a, we knew based on a lot of things that I can't talk about, methods and sources I can't ever talk about. But we knew when they were going to do this to her. She lived in an apartment complex outside Kirtland Air Force Base. She was stationed in Kirtland. And she lived in a two-story, real small apartment. And she, her bedroom was upstairs. And we knew that she would be taken during a time period. And we set up a surveillance. And that's about all I can say. That's a fact. And she's a whistleblower. And she would be the number one person I would put in front of a camera if I was a member of Congress. She is a legitimate whistleblower. She's, she retired from the military. She's a grandmother now. She taught school for some some time. She lives around the DC area. I'm sorry, she lives around the Baltimore area. But she has been interviewed by many of the US representatives and and at least two senators and some of their staff. So she's a legitimate. Whoa. Now the problem is what happens when she tells her story. You know, Steven Greer is a friend, a nice person. I've worked with him before. But his his a mentality regarding they can't be hostile. It is absolutely out out the window. And I've told him this to his face. As a Steven, you're lying on faulty information. You're being misinformed. And I'm telling you from a listen to me, I'm a counterintelligence officer. People within your circle are misinforming you because there are hardstyle extraterrestrials out there. And that's the ones we have to worry about. And you've seen this firsthand. I saw this firsthand. I have so many questions that you can answer. Well, well, I've seen her sitting in front of me talking about this. You know, as far as firsthand, no, we I wasn't there when she was doing all this stuff. But you saw the surveillance images or sorry, the surveillance apparatus, whatever that was, whether they filmed it or whether they, I don't know, but you saw that. How was involved with it? Yes. You were involved with it with like setting up the surveillance. Yes. And you had enough to go on. First of all, how you knew that was going to happen is a whole other discussion that I'm sure you can't have. No, and because I didn't know what the protocol was. All the technical stuff. But they knew. Yeah. We had Air Force Intel. We had FBI. We had OSI. We had NSA all part of this because in order to, if you can imagine, in order to understand something that's alien to us, we have to have the top technical people within the NSA and these other agencies involved to create something to build something. Plus there were contractors involved in this too. So this is a multi-pronged, multi-faceted, multi-departmented, sting operation in order to capture this on some type of media that you can then review. And it was successful. Yes. That was successful. There were some that weren't, but that was successful. We're obviously, she was made aware and she was part of this operation. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I mean, did you get to interview her after? Yeah. We thwarted the, she wasn't abducted that night. You thwarted it. Yeah. We prevented it based on all this stuff. And we got her out and we got her to a safe location because there was always doubt not in my mind, but other people's minds. Sure. There was an FBI agent working on this and he didn't believe words. He said, even after a pilot, he was just, I don't believe any of this stuff. But after that night, he sat in a, I'm not exaggerating a bit. He sat in a room when we had her out at the it wasn't all this office, it was a very secure facility out of the bay because we didn't know if these things were coming after. But we were in a protected area at the bay. It was a sandy laboratory area. And this FBI agent sat in a room crying because he doubted her. He said, all this time, all these eight months or whatever it was, I doubted her and she's telling the truth. She felt bad. So I believed her. He didn't. He was always he was always skeptical about everything. Rightfully so I think. Yeah, right. Rightfully so. And he had a lot of background. You know, he was a Vietnam that he was in a special or the steady operation group. I don't know if you know what that is in Vietnam. The guys worked behind the lines. You know, they drop them off in Laos and you know, for a hundred days or whatever it was. And he went through a lot this guy. And he is a tough rugged FBI agent. But he had a, you know, he it changed him. It actually changed because I worked with him after that on other cases, including the Paul Benowitz case. And he was a different person. As as I saw in other people who worked that operation, they they I think a lot of them were scared. I mean, if you see something that's literally out of this world and your mind can't comprehend it. Because if you if you go into something and you just like a child, the experiments with child, putting them in a hostile, not a hostile environment, a strange way, they can't comprehend, you know, and humans are saying, you know, we were the same way. We can't comprehend what we're seeing or how how we're going to rectify it. When you give it in regardless of training, because we went through a lot of training, a really good training in intelligence operations course. I mean, they would put you in a situation, not UFO situations or anything like that. But they would put you in situations where there's no no win. But they made you go all the way up to the end. And you figure you're going to die in the exercise or something. But they do this over and over and over and over again. Trust in circulation. Yeah. Exactly. I was just going to say that stress and accumulation. So when you're out doing the job in the real field, nothing's going to bother. Nothing's going to scare you. But you're regardless. I mean, that much scares me. But after that, seeing what I saw or listening to her tell her stories, you know, I'm thinking, wow, sure. That doesn't happen to my girlfriend or that then I wasn't married or my mother or my sister. I mean, why are they picking on her? And, you know, all these that you worried about yourself. And why they pick her? That's the question that I don't know the answer to. I'm sure maybe the government does. Are they on here? Yeah, they're here. Which ones are they? The, the, Epiloids of the, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. The insect ones, quadiloids. The ones that look like insects. Yeah. Those were the ones that were. But this is a complicated part of it. They are able to manipulate your observation of them. I mean, sure. They can manipulate mine. Can they manipulate the camera? I don't know. I never thought of that. So was there something that you saw in that operation? I can't talk about what I saw. But I can tell you they're real. Can I? Okay. So they're not the, other, the quadiloids. These ones. Yeah. The aliens, the insect, humanoid types. Yes. And it says they have a high IQ. Why would something with a high IQ be so violent? That's trying to get inside an alien mind and we can't do that. I'm going to show you something. You can have this. This is yours. Okay. Okay. Wow. Is that like something you've seen before? I can't say. Was that in pictures in a document, not, not in real life? Is that the same thing that was involved here? Or was that different? I better not say. Okay. No, I'm not going to say. Okay. Is that going to be on your area? That hasn't been made public. Okay. Yeah. You're going to make it public. Not anytime. Okay. No, I better not say that. Yeah. Yeah. So if I didn't make it public, you could confirm or deny. Okay. Well, maybe one day. That's, did we take a break? Let's take a break. All right. That's a good time for a break. Okay. I mean, where to transition from something like that? It's just so jarring to hear that. I've never once heard of an abduction being thwarted. I think that's a new one for me. We hear about abutions. We hear about people trying to film them unsuccessfully. Something always goes wrong, Murphy's Law, some type of, you know, whether that's people at Skinwalker Ranch filming stuff and things going haywire. But never had it occurred to me that other than the instances of people saying, you know, sort of the Lord's name or something, like you hear about stories like that and that sort of fends them off. Is that, is there any merit to that? Well, there, there was part of that. She, she was religious. And she, she wore a, say, Christopher's cross. And but that didn't, that didn't stop anything. Yeah. They didn't seem to. And there's a lot more. She, she, she would argue with them. This is in the beginning. Okay. We're going back months and months and months. Yeah. When she first came to us, which, we didn't believe her. It's a truth. We didn't believe her. She would tell us that she would have arguments with them because of God. And, and they kept asking who, who is God? Who is God? Who is this human God? And, you know, she couldn't explain, so, but she would pray. And afterwards, she would say, why are they doing this to me? And again, the government, the Air Force, let's, let's say this, the abduction started and she was, she didn't come to us right away. She was going to the base hospital or the sick. Yeah. And she didn't know what it was. She thought she was having dreams or, you know, whatever it was. But she was having, you know, fingernails were taking that. Well, they thought they were, she was doing it to herself, you know, self-mutilation. She was in a very sensitive career field. And so, they were careful. She had PRP. So, they were very careful of that, what she claims happened to her. So, they took her off the job and put her in another, and just like administrative office within her squadron. And that upset her because, you know, she liked the job she was doing. But these things were getting worse and worse. Finally, this doctor based physician who is an internist who had been co-opted by us because of other things, saw her. And he immediately called us, and that's how she became involved through the was eye. He said, you need to interview this girl, this sergeant. I said, okay. So, me and this female agent, interviewer. And she never mentioned aliens or anything like that. Okay, nothing like that. She's saying this phenomenon is occurring to her, where somebody is taking her and doing all these things to her. Now, at that, at that time, she was living on the base. She had moved off the base yet. She was still living on the base. And I thought, well, you know, she lived in an all female, back then, they weren't co-ed. She lived in a female dorm, only females in there. And there's security, you know, keeping the men out. So to speak. This is like a house mother. Sure. I said, "Well, who's getting in your room? How would they get in your room?" I don't know. She says, "We just couldn't understand. And why were they doing this to you?" At that point, it was a fingernails and a toenails that were removed. - Being removed. - All of them were just-- - No, no, no, just one. Or they would cut them, and it would take one off, and they'd scrape the under the skin after the nail has been removed. And so we checked with the Bay, "Why would anybody be in?" Maybe somebody had a fetish. There were perverts. - Deviant behavior. - Deviant behavior, some guy like toenails, and we had all sorts of, we had our own sex. On the OSI, remember, had an investigative side, a criminal investigation side. These guys investigated rapes. We get those experts in. They have no idea, I never heard of that. Guys have people have fetishes and perversions, but nothing about moving nails or anything like that. So we couldn't figure it out, you know. And so then it would go four or five months or nothing and then it would happen again. And like I said, initially it's just fingernails. She did have her at one point, a eardrum punctured, right eardrum. And then then it started getting worse. Then she went in one night to the emergency room, the base hospital emergency room, just bleeding from the vaginal area. She had holes poked between her and her left foot between her big toe and her first toe. Like somebody put a rod in there, but it wasn't bleeding. So, you know, the guy in the emergency room, of course, he's just a regular doctor. He couldn't figure it out. He calls OSI, the criminal people, because he said she'd been raped. - Yeah. - So they went through the whole rape protocol, you know, called in agonocologist and the agonocologist said, "No, she didn't have sex. Somebody inserted something into her vaginal area." So at that time they admitted her because they were thoroughly convinced she was doing this to herself, self-mutilation. So she was at a hospital for, I don't know how long. We interviewed her, I think twice, maybe three times or she was at a hospital. She was so upset because she said, "I'm not doing it to myself. I'm not doing it to myself." So then she sent her down to shepherd air force base in which tall falls. That's the air force psychiatric hospital down there. So they sent her down there to be thoroughly evaluated because they're saying she's nuts. So I don't know how, I don't remember how long she was down there, but a while I, you know, a couple months or something. Anyway, she comes back because the psychiatrist says, there's nothing wrong with her. She's not, in fact, I read the psychiatric report from this psychiatrist. In fact, we had OSI at shepherd air force base go talk to this psychiatrist who wrote this. - Yeah, to make sure that he was like. - It was a sound, or she, yeah. - She said she's not doing it to herself. It's not self-mutilation. Some outside entity is doing this. This is in her report. And so we get it back and I thought, wow. Well, then we think, well, she has a boyfriend that she doesn't, and they're experimenting, doing, you know. She thinks each other, you know, because in some relationships gay or even, even heterol, inserting something into the whole cavities, it can be, you know, a game or something. So we kind of thought that and we brought her in for an interview and we, as she admitted, having a boyfriend and having sex, she wasn't a virgin or anything like that. But her boyfriend belonged to this squadron, I can't remember the name of that. They left T.D.Y. or temporary duty all the time. I mean, he'd come back for a while and he'd go, I think he'd installed equipment or something like that. Anyways. So then we interviewed him and doing anything like that. We made him do a polygraph. I mean, no, he never, her, he never harmed her. But he said, he said at night, you know, he would spend a night with her and, you know, after sex or something and then he'd be able to sleep. She'd, she'd talk in her sleep or she'd scream in her sleep. Or she'd wake up and yell and scream. And many times he said this happened. And he thought, well, somebody's in here or somebody's, now he was going to her dorm room and I was supposed to happen, you know, so he thought that maybe somebody was trying to catch him doing something. And that's one reason why they moved, she moved off base. But why she made Sergeant moved off base. So these all things, all these factors are building up and building up. So we, we're at the point, we know what to do. When, so finally we asked her to take a polygraph. And she took a polygraph, she passed it. And then we had to, now this is something I can't go on a great deal to deal with. But we have this intelligent service has this hypnotic polygraph system that very, very rarely is used where you put somebody on the hypnosis and the polygraph them. Okay, and the technique I can't go into, I'm not a polygraph examiner, but there's certain people who have to do this. I mean, they just can't be a regular polygraph examiner. And most of ours were psychologists. Okay, anyways, she went through that and passed because according to them, not me, but according to them, when you're at a hypnosis, you can't lie. So that you can't, you can't cheat a polygraph. You can't cheat a polygraph, yeah. So that sent the flag up and headquarters and everybody in DIA. And that's when the full wrath of the government came in on her side. Well, and then that's where the sting operation began to get set up. Did they already have a protocol in place that they were going to act on? Yeah, so they already had something that was like kind of field tested. Yeah, but I don't know anything about that. I was never involved any of that. Sure, but they came in, all right, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna set this up and do this this way. Briefed her on that and then it happened. Well, let me go back a little bit. One of the things they wanted, when she moved to off base apartment, it was just outside the base, that quarter mile out of the base in apartment complex. They wanted us to place co-work devices in the place. Now we don't do that. We have a technical service to do that. Without her knowing. Without her knowing. Do you think if she knew, it wouldn't work? Well, they do, they did. They think that's the way they think. That like if she knew, they knew. Yeah, but it's a device that we can't ever use this in court. We can't use it against her in any kind of administrative here. It's something that we're gonna collect and keep and never tell her, okay? Now we do that a lot in a lot of cases. In FISA warrants, if they're non-criminal FISA warrants, if I get a FISA warrant for your house, I'll place bugs in there, but it's only for counterintelligence collection. I'll go and get them out. To never be used. Never being used in court. We go to a federal court and get a criminal warrant, then that can be used against her. Yeah, wiretaps and stuff. Wiretaps and stuff. Yeah, titled three fours or fives. Anyways, so we did that. We did what headquarters wanted us to do or OSI technicals. And this is video and audio recording? No, it's just, I think it's just audio first. I think it was just audio. Video came later, but I think it was just audio initially. And I think they put in something else later. But anyways, the audio recorded everything. And, well, I can't go into details. But you can hear the beings. You can hear voices. You hear voices more than hers. More than what? Male, female. Indistinguishable. Indistinguishable. I don't, you know, I only heard a small portion, maybe to say. Oh my gosh, what was that like hearing that? Well, is that frightening? Yeah, because it was echoing. It was like, it was like somebody was talking through one of those, you know, those cheek later. No, just a cheerleader, you know, cone. Yeah, the old time cheerleader, not that electric ones. Like a tin can. any sort of voice. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's a good, good, good point. And, um, and then, of course, they analyzed all that, the, the, the tech people, I didn't do any of that. And then, later, they put, put the, the, the camera in, but it verified everything, everything she's was selling us is there. And that's why there's a lot of other steps that were taken, a lot of other people came in, a lot of other equipment was used and, you know, sources of methods. I'm not going to go into how clear is that footage. Um, I never saw a video. I saw the audio. I heard the audio. I didn't see the video. Okay. But the audio was very convincing to me. There was more, the thing about it is it was like she was in a room full of people with these talking through cones. It wasn't just one voice. And I, I thought, well, they're speaking English. English. Yeah. Speaking broken English. How clear was this clearing English? Is you and I speak? Are you speaking? Maybe I don't know. It's, it was English. And well, let me go back. We, what we, uh, after we put the bug in and we heard this, they wanted us to go in and do a surreptitious search for any recording devices. Okay. So they hear the voices. Okay. She's making them up. She has a tape recorder or something. Okay. So we did. Well, not me, but OSI did, you know, our experts went in and they can go in and put everything back. If this was like this, they'll put it back. You know, they'll take pictures everything and they went in and they didn't find it. They, she had a, a real, a real one of these old Sony real, the real tape recorders. Yeah. Like that. And, and that's it. She had a radio, you know, regular radio, uh, AMFM radio. She didn't have anything else in there. But this, they took the tapes and listened. It was recording. It wasn't projecting anything. She didn't have anything that projected the audio, you know, you know, she's trying to record herself. Yeah. No, she wasn't doing anything. She wasn't using that at all. I see. So they, you know, we sent that up the headquarters, they're saying, I know, these voices are English. You know, they, what do you think of the English human? Uh, why is she, why are they talking English to her? You know, why are they doing it through her brain? Mine, all these things, questions that people that I would be asking to. And because when I first heard that small portion of I thought, she said an orgy. What did they say? They were telling her things, telling her to do things like what your arm, spread your legs, things like that. Oh my gosh. Lift your arm. Oh, they, I forgot. They did things in her armpits too. I forgot that they did that. They were doing this in her room, in her room. No, they, well, yeah, initially in a room. Now, here's, I can't go into a lot of details, but this is before she was taking some place. Okay. So she, everything up to that point was done there in her room on the base, her dorm room in her apartment, or the apartment upstairs in the bedroom. And after we did what we did, after we, you know, interviewed her, because we, we eventually said, listen, listen to this tape. Oh, we've recorded you. We recorded you. And I said, well, first of all, we said, listen, we're investigating this and we did something and we want to tell you about it. Well, she kind of figured out something. She's smart. And, and I said, listen to this. And she'd listen. She said, oh, yeah, that was them. I said, and dummy, dumb, dumb, dumb, person like me on that dumb. But why are they speaking anything? I asked her. She says, I don't know. Ask them. You know, I don't know why they're, you know, why are they speaking in English? She says, I said, they always speak in English. She said, yeah. I said, she said, I don't understand the alien. Why would he? Well, I understand that. But I'm, I was saying, why are they verbally saying that? And not maybe in your mind, like the way we think. She said, I don't know, but they've done that too. I hear them in my head as she says. So we thought, okay, whatever. Now what did we do? But then we missed opportunities and they took her. They would take her out through her window to a craft. And then she would go someplace and then they'd bring her back through her window. Like Linda Cortillo type thing. And she would be in a room. She was in a bubble. She says a bubble. It was a bubble around room, around room. And she was on a table in the bubble. And these, she saw then these ugly, she saw the actual insecticides come in and they come right up to her. And this, this is a time that she's hearing them in her head. They're not moving there, but they're, they're badgering her. They're saying, who is God? Who is this God? I don't like to say that. But what's his name? Where's he live? And things like that that she's asking because she's praying. She's, she's, when she's abducted, she's praying. I think I said that, didn't I? Well, she, she is confused. And then there's, and then in this room, in this bubble, they're doing all these things to her, you know, examining her and more evasive all the time, more evasive. And then she would lose consciousness and find out, find yourself in the bed or in her bed in her apartment. The only thing I could say is there are some people during this time that we're thinking that these extraterrestrials couldn't, couldn't be in the same environment with a human. And that's why they come in this bubble. They had to keep her alive. They had to have oxygen and whatever. But when they, when out, they, they, they were in their own environment. I don't know if I, I know somebody, one of the DIA guys, I talked about that. Apparently, they have other cases that they worked on that I didn't had no knowledge of. So that's why the government will, above and beyond, to do something to help her. And they did. To this day. I don't know. I, I'm sure. She's, I, I spoke to her in Washington DC in 2022. And she's a different person. I mean, she hasn't had any abductions in, you know, 30, 30 years or whatever it was. That's a terrifying. Yeah, terrifying. And, and, but to know, like, I mean, it's just so strange. The, like, what method was used to thwart them? How did they, was it guns? Was it sound? Was it, like, lights? What, how did they get them out of there? How did they stop it from happening? I can't. I can't, wouldn't that be really important information for people out there to know in case they wanted to stop it? It's not guns. It's nothing like that. It's a technology. It's a frequency. It's just technology. Interesting. I don't know. I'm not the same. You don't know the method. I know how to use it, but I don't know what's behind it. Okay. Interesting. Okay. All right. We'll, we'll move from that, but we'll put a pin in that for whenever she decides to come forward. Maybe we'll have you back and talk about it. Well, I have her back too. Maybe have both of you in the diner. Yeah. That would be great. Once she talks, man, that, I mean, she's going to be wanted by everybody. Of course. Of course. But I probably have an inside with her. I mean, all I did for her, all we did, and just me, but all of a sudden, for me, that, and it's still as I, but the entire realm of the government, I mean, she had NSA and everybody working to, to, to swerve this. It's really alarming. Because you know what's hard, Rick, in this topic for me, is, and I'm sure you've come across this as well. You have to walk a line where one side of you says, okay, either this person is telling me the objective truth of extra trust, real visitation, of whether it's mutilation or whether it's just experimentation, whatever that is, or I am actively indulging in someone's potential psychosis. And that's the line that I always find very difficult. Because on one hand, I want to be, I want to be the person who people can trust to come to and say these things and who feel safe and secure in, in, in saying them. But on the other side, if this is all invented, then I'm actually not doing the right thing. I'm, I'm, I'm gaslighting and I'm, I'm making this worse somehow, you know, by, by allowing them to sort of perpetuate this potential, you know, psychotic episode. And so, you know, something like that, I'm sure affected you in that same way where like, you know, there's a lot of times where I'm sure you couldn't tell if it was real or not, even today. I'm sure with people telling you stories, how do you discern, right? But then that gave you some objective truth. Did that change how you felt about previous abduction cases? Absolutely, absolutely. And, and she was one of the truly convincing cases. We had others that were not convincing. Right. That, that, I mean, you could, one of the, one of the things that was developed, I have to be careful, is the way to evaluate, there's something, a widget, I'll call it a widget, that you telling me you're abducted, I bring that widget in, and that, that widget will tell me whether you're telling the truth. Not a lie detector, anything like that. It's something else that you just have to, it's too scientific for me to of human origin. Yeah. Well, I'm not going to say. Well, because I watched the movie a disclosure day. Have you seen this movie? Yes. Yes. So in there, there's a widget. Yep. Is that not unlike the widget you're referring to? I'm not going to say. Okay. But because I found it very strange in that movie that that was brought in, because I'm like, we don't really hear about things like that at all. Everything else in the movie seemed to track, whether it's the psychic overlay or the, the sort of lingering psychic abilities that someone has after having an experience, the screen memories, the childhood abductions, there's so many things in that movie that really track and, and cut deep for, you know, people who follow experiences. But that one thing stood out to me. I was like, what the heck's this? Maybe he got some insight information. Do you think that's the case? I think he did. Yeah. I, I think, yeah. 100%. 100% there's some things in there that he's gotten. He was briefed on. He was briefed on. He was read in. Absolutely. Absolutely. In that specific movie? Yeah. That movie. Okay. Well, is the widget one of them? But there are, yeah, I'll say the bougie is true. I, I, they can't do anything to me. But there's a lot. I heard from the very reliable source that 18 minutes was cut out at film because the government says you can't, you can't possibly show that. Now, I don't know if it's 18. I had some says six minutes and some says 18. There's some sections cut out because if you, I watch it twice because there's reasons why I watch it twice. And I analyze, there's, they jump. You can almost tell where it's cut. Where they cut the thing? Yeah, because I, you know, I'm not, I've never edited anything. But I've been on movie sets and I know, you know, I know what was filmed and then what was cut later and what scene was, you know, so yeah, I'm, I'm positive. Now, Spielberg will, we'll say it's sensors or something. But sensors don't care about UFOs. I mean, if it's sex or something, you know, perverted, maybe, you know, cut it, but sensors? Nah. Yeah. And what I found interesting too is that normally movies depicting some type of government faction or department will have to acknowledge them in the credits. They didn't. They didn't. I thought that was really interesting because even a movie like Alio, which talks about, you know, there's space force in there and that, you know, we are very grateful for space force and the Air Force and the Department of Defense and Yadayata. So what's the reason why they wouldn't? Because they're so real that they don't, I don't know. I don't want to touch it. What part, what, and what part of the movie do you think was cut out? Where do you think, where do you feel that that was cut out? The ending was. Oh, so the ending was the thing. She was supposed, I, well, this is what I was told. Yes, sure. What source told you this? Somebody in a company, a universal, somebody else. No, I'll turn, I'll turn. Oh, his company. Yeah, his come. Spielberg's company. Yeah, somebody said there was more to the ending than was so that maybe that's what it was cut out. She was supposed to say more and she was supposed to go into, she was supposed to say it and then the alien voices to clip. Yeah, yeah. At the end, and they didn't do that. Wow. Because I, I think like many people felt the shortcoming of that ending. Like it was just so abrupt and strange that they would end it there. I was like, that's, I stayed for the end credit, so it's got to be more here. Yeah, me too. Yeah, but, but, yeah, this, I think the ending, and then there's, when, when he first got into the alien head thing to try to talk, they cut some of that out. I think at the beginning, they also cut it out, some things out. And you're saying they cut it not for time or anything, but for, I'm saying. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I'm just saying others have told me. You, you, you think I was there, but others are told. I mean, it's on the internet. I mean, he's like, people, they was saying they cut it out for this. They cut it out. I don't know. Yeah. But my friend who works there said, yeah, there's, they, they, they did cut out some, and they always cut out film, you know, but yeah, I was scanning all the, uh, the sort of images that the new station was playing simultaneously. I was like, maybe there's something in here that they, you know, soft disclosure that they left in. Well, as I understand, there's a few people out there, and I'm actually going to go visit one next week, uh, who saw a longer version. Oh. And he surprisingly told me this, uh, he said, oh, they cut a lot out of that. I said, yeah, that's a rumor. He goes, well, I'm not telling you rumor. I saw a longer version. I said, you saw a longer version. He said, yeah, I said, I got to come out and see you. Where did you see it? At a special show week? He was for the government too. Really? Was this showing in California? Yeah. Palm Springs area. You know, was it? Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. You know, I know they had a screening there. Yep. And I know there was some, uh, there's some private jets landing. Mm-hmm. Two DARPA guys, at least two DARPA guys and Air Force Colonel. Cause it happened during contact in the desert. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So that, okay, I'm going to have to talk to somebody. Yeah. I'm going to tune next time. That's interesting. Um, okay. I want to talk about something a little more trippy since we've gotten into some really trippy things. Um, now, you know, there is, there's so much I'd love to talk to you about, including, you know, Serpo, including more about Project Aquarius and, I mean, Dolce Bay, like all this, all this stuff is, uh, very fascinating. But one thing that I came across that I thought was really interesting is I had, um, I think a, a mutual friend on here. John Stewart. Hi, no, John. Yeah. Good friends, John. Yeah. John's a good guy. I like John. Yeah. You know, the internet gives him a hard time, not entirely undeserved. I think, I think, uh, you know, John's definitely going to watch this. Uh, but I, uh, I do think John sort of pokes the bear. So to speak, he's got a lot of gumption. He's somebody who, you know, his background is just riddled with someone who kicks indoors and doesn't really, you know, he's boisterous. He's, he's all of these things, um, which I think credit to him, uh, gets him into places and into conversations that most don't get, uh, into. Um, and so one of these stories is the story of this Carthusian monk in an Northern Vermont or something. Yeah. Yeah. And the story is, if, if the people at home haven't watched this, the story is as follows, uh, that he had someone reach out to this monastery because this monastery was found by remote viewers during, you know, the whole Stargate era, or maybe a little prior or after. Um, but they remote viewed the monastery as being, as housing people who will help them communicate with the being that they had at S4, all right, Area 51, Groom Lake, or Papus. And so they ended up going there. A Carthusian monastery, by the way, is like one of the most sacred, there's only one in the United States. And, uh, these people take a vow of silence, their whole existence is to do nothing but contemplate. Like God, they have the right to refuse being called upon by the church. Like that's how coveted these people are. And because of this, you know, they have a lot of wisdom and a lot of, you know, sort of this higher connection potentially. And they were eventually brought in and flown to the secret undisclosed location to communicate with this being. It is my understanding through conversations with John that you may have also had some small part in this or an interest, a vested interest in this story. And is that safe to say? Yes. Yeah. I knew of an operation that was occurring at Groom Lake. I didn't know it was Cuthersian monks, okay? I knew there was a project that they were bringing people in to S2 Annex, which is where we call it the creature containment facility. They had special facilities for these extraterrestrials that we found or gain, I don't know how we got them, because a lot of them had a half special environments to live. And that these people that they brought in, again, I didn't know at the time in 80s that they were Cuthersian monks, that they were able to communicate with them. Now, that's it. That's 1980s era, okay? Was that a project you were read into? I was partially read into it, yes, because one of the, one of the vans that they weren't flown in to Groom Lake. They were a bust or they had a van. The government used a van from Nellis, they flew into Las Vegas, now head to Harry Reid Airport, and then they would bust them up to Nellis and they would spend a night at Nellis and something was going, I don't know what happened at Nellis, and then they would chuck them out there. Well, one of them got an accident, and up there, I think, just south and near Rachel anyways. And we knew that they were very important officials. We didn't know who they were. And so, you know, the accident happened, the highway patrols there investigating it. We had to go up and earn a face with a highway patrol. So, I knew that they were some special and we actually got another van from Groom Lake to come out to pick them up and then take them out there. So, that's my involvement with this. I knew, and then one of the agents, Harrison was his name, who was actually involved in this kind of intelligence operation for S-2 Annex, he knew what was going on. And he had to give me limited access because of what I did. And I, because I came back and I said, okay, how do you want me to, there's certain codes we have to use in reports? How do you want me to code this? And he goes, well, they're going up to S-2 Annex and they're going to be interpreters. It's okay. Well, not interpreters. Sure. In a sense of what we could write down would be interpreters. That's it. Now jump ahead. Many, many 30, some 40 years. The story came out that from another person, within John's realm of circles, so to speak, that told him the story that there were two Carthusian monks that had special gifts to be able to communicate with these extraterrestrials. And apparently, I mean, again, there's a lot of whole, I mean, a lot of things we can't put together here. But these two were still alive. They were living at this monastery. And like you said, it's a very closed monastery. It's like they were hermits. They, they, it looks like a bunker. Exactly. They, they, they, they, they, you can't visit the place. We, we went up, tried to visit the place. They, they're, it's hard. Who's we, you and John? No, me and another guy went up there. And at the bottom of the hill, they have a gift shop. And they make, they have gift shop, they make a honey, they have, they make other things amongst the li, you know, to, to, to, to, to, to sustain. And, but you, we tried to get access to, we knew their names, the brother, John and brother. But we didn't think more about him. And they said, no, you can't, they don't have visitors. Once a year, they can have a family member visit them. But these two don't have any family. And they're very old. And they're in, you know, like a hospice up there or something. So we could never get up there. But what we noticed was that there was a Vermont State trooper that would patrol from the gate where the gift house, gift shop was up the road and down. I don't know. That's odd. State troopers are trolling a private. Why's that? Well, we, we went to this local state police barracks and they basically said, get out of here, you know, none of your business what we do. And so we did, you know, good. And we did records. Freedom of records checks. You call them Vermont. And all we got back was that somebody pays that over time. It doesn't say who somebody pays the troopers over time. Because what they're doing is over time pay. Yes, sure. And that's it. That's all we got. We didn't want to have anything else. No names. I think we got the troopers names. I think I'm not sure. But that's it. We couldn't get up. We got up there. But this other person who worked at Area 51, his name is Gene, who actually was a director of security at Area 51 back in the 80s, told the story of of these two monks that they were in fact gifted. Now, where they got gifted from, you know, we some people surmise that they might have gone to the Vatican and the Vatican had special powers or they knew or whatever. I don't know. Or maybe just through the vow of silence itself, you know, how if you dampen one sense, the other senses might start to crease. That's a possibility. Anyways, they were the ones that were able to communicate with this particular species of extraterrestrial, which species. I'm not sure. I think the grays, one of the grays. And these grays told us all this information. And that's part of the film that John is talking about the alien interview. The alien interview. You feel like that film is real? Oh, yeah, I know it is because the guy that smuggled it out spoke. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, I gave him to Victor. The Air Force Sergeant that smuggled it out. He worked in the audio visual lab groomlake. He had access to where he could copy that. Right. Yeah, you would have to. Yeah, the video or whatever, how they did that. I think it was on. And it was during a time they were sort of digitizing everything. Yeah, digitizing exactly. And so he was able to smuggle it out, keep it and eventually give it to Victor. And then the story of Victor, you don't think that that could be passage material? No, but he spoke to us a couple different times, the technician. And he, and he doesn't want his name because he still feels, well, he could still be prosecuted. I don't know. I thought I was just coach class. I've heard from patient. There's no I'm a set of limitations on that. Yeah, but I mean, you'd have to admit to something else. I know, but you know, he infatically told us that that's what he did. And that's why John knows what the chain of events was. Sure. Was. And so you're convinced without a doubt that is a real alien that I am. I am. Yes. Any other video online that you would say that is without a doubt real, whether UFO or alien. There's a couple, which ones I'd have to show. I don't have them right here. Okay, well, we can I have some that I will give to you. Okay, it's think it's pretty sure is real. Okay, not the skinny Bob. Nothing like that. I'd have to see it. Okay, because there's two different ones named skinny Bob. But yeah, okay, I'd have to the one. The most famous foot of bake one was the one where that you see the military officers holding this doll. It was a doll. It was a joke, yes, Lee. Somebody took a picture and now they're claiming it was an extraterrestrial. Oh, yes. - Yes, yes, it was a doll, yeah, yeah. - It has a doll. - Anyways, yeah, we can, what about there's this video where it seems like it's a crash site or something. Maybe in the '40s, it's sort of sepia, brownish, hues. And there looks to be on a stretcher like a tiny body and like military officials, it's very brief. Do you know this one? - No, I don't. - Okay, I'll show that to you afterwards. - Yeah, cool, okay. Well, yeah, I don't know where I sit with that. That's a weird one because on one hand, I, you know, you look at that video and parts of it are, you know, alarming because it, you know, it looks like a being that's in distress and being sort of tampered. But the other part of me is like, this kind of looks like a puppet, this kind, but again, I don't know what an alien looks like or how it moves, right? So maybe that's the only way I can describe it. But when I see it, I see it, you know, kind of doing this here. - Right, a puppet, yeah. - Yeah, it feels like it's puppetry, which leads me to believe that maybe at the very least, like this was made to replicate a real video, you know, and I think John, I think that's where he sits as well. - Right, yeah. - You don't think that that was the case? - No, I don't think so. Like this guy smuggled out a real video of something that was recreated. He just unknowingly smuggled out the recreation. You don't think that that is a possibility? - I guess that's a possibility. But I go back to, I know the facility. I've been at the facility. I saw a close circuit, watch it a close circuit in the television camera of an alien inside. I went in there to interview somebody. I wasn't supposed to see this. I was in there watching this and I asked the guy that I was supposed to be interviewed. I said, "What's that?" He said, "Oh, they're talking to one of the visitors, they call them visitors." And I watched, you know, I watched maybe, you know, 20 seconds, 25 seconds of it. And then this colonel comes in and he says, "Can I help you?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm here to interview you." And so he said, "You're not cleared for here, sir. You need to get out of here." I wasn't cleared for there. But I didn't know that they were doing this. So I know that they do that. - Yeah, they weren't trying to pull one over on you. They didn't know you were there. - No, so I had to get out. And then when I got out, he said, "Where do you work?" I said, "I'm all aside." And I showed him I was, he said, "I'll be there, Brian." I guess he assumed I was cleared, but I wasn't. So what I had to do, when you give access to something, I was not cleared for it. Yeah, I had to report it and all these seizures. I went back to the office and I told my boss, I said, "I told him what happened." And he said, "What did you see?" And I told him. He said, "Fill out of form 18." And it's like a form that I had not knowledge that I had access to something. - On authorized, yeah. - And he said, "I'll sign off out of it." And I dealt with it again. He had to counsel me or something. There's a couple of forms you have to fill out. So I know that that happens. I saw it. - And it was the same thing. - Similar. - Okay. - It was a similar thing. I mean, I can't say-- - Big head, large eyes. - Yeah, big head, large, but it was in like a, one of these swings that you'd put somebody that was disabled in, you know these swings. It was in a swing, like a harness. And it had straps around him. His head looked exactly like that one. And I didn't see the people. I didn't see the whoever was in the room. But it was moving like it was talking. But, you know, I said, "Oh, he had. " - Short, period of time to watch. - Well, I don't want to watch all of it. But because it really perked my interest, I thought, "Oh shit, they got him in here." Yeah, I thought, "Okay." I knew what the facility was, but I never, you know, I wasn't, it wasn't always I, it was responsible for that area. It wasn't me, but I knew it was there. Now I know what they had there, at least one. - You've had so many interesting encounters. I wish I had more. (laughing) - It was never enough. - Never enough. - But you talk about it so flippantly, like how do you get to that point? I feel like a lot of people, you know, I don't know. I don't know how I would process all that information, I guess. And I'm just kind of, it's not every day that you get to, you know, see something like that, and then even know how to process it. Like, I don't even know how I would process it. - Well, first of all, you didn't go through all the pre-equices to get becoming an intelligence officer. You didn't go through all the psychological testing. You didn't go through the intelligence operations course that prepares you for the unknown. So that helped, but I'm a human being. And yeah, there was a lot of things that I saw that I can't explain. The briefing that I had in 1979 that I didn't believe, but then I realized it was real. Some other things that I had access to, to this day, I'm not sure what I saw. I mean, I saw it, you know, my own eyes, and there were other people with me when they saw it, but I can't explain it. And so, yeah, there's a lot of things that I can't explain that I saw, and there's things that I did that I was told to do, and I did it because that's my job. I'm following orders that I wish I didn't do, or I wish I didn't see. And a lot of that was abductions. Because after the sergeant's abduction in all her case, it was very difficult to believe anybody, unless they had, you know, really, really, really good proofs. And there was a case, another case I was involved in. I wasn't, I wasn't a case agent for it. I just had very, very, very limited access to it. Another female, she was a dependent wife of a captain. She wasn't in here before she was dependent wife. You know what that means? And yeah, she, your mother. And so, she had an experience that I took the initial report on, that made us believe that she was having an affair, and was covering the affair with this supposed, but it didn't turn out that way. I mean, like I said, I only had a little part of it. Did you really, really part of it? Did you bring in the widget? Brought into it, they brought into widget. And they confirmed it. That confirmed a she was telling the truth. The facts to the case, if we have time. We have plenty of time. Okay, she's driving, she leaves Kirtlin, she's driving on the Interstate 25 to Colorado. Her, I don't know, some relatives live in Colorado. She has her, I don't know, a small child, I think seven, month or eight month old child in the back seat in a car seat. She's driving, she gets near Springer in Mexico, which is, you know, about 40 miles from the Colorado state line. Okay. And the car, she has problems with the car. She pulls off the side of the road. It's just before the first exit going into Springer into Mexico, a little down. And all of a sudden, the car lights up. She feels dizzy, and she loses time. She wakes up at Eagle Nest Lake, which is 70 miles away to the west. She doesn't have her child with her. She doesn't know where she is. She doesn't know what happened six hours later. Well, fortunately, and in Mexico, say, Trooper saw the vehicle side of the road, pulls up, looks in, sees a baby, doesn't see anybody around, you know, and takes care of the child. But then he does his investigation and finds that this woman, you know, runs the plate and finds out this woman is, is supposed to be in a car. He calls back to the base and gets a hold of the husband who had been working or something, a captain, and said, no, my wife left to go to, I think Pablo Calarero, to visit relatives. And they said, well, we found your baby in a car, but we can't find her. Where would she be? Thun. A fisherman jumped up at the Eagle Nest Lake as big lake in Northern Mexico. He finds her walking along the shoreline of this lake, and he asked her, man, what's wrong? And she's all excited, crying. I don't know where my baby is. Where'd you come from? My car, my car. So him and another fisherman are looking all over for a car, I thought that there's only one way down a road. They can't find a car. So they call, we didn't have 9-1-1 back in those days. - Was 4-1-1, wasn't it? - No, it was 0. - I was 0. - Operator. - Well, he had to go to a place to call. He left somebody in charge of her, and drives to this gas station, seven miles away. You know, calls. And so the law enforcement is in there as a state police. They come down there. Well, they know her name, because the other trooper over in Springer found the vehicle. And so they take her in a, they immediately take her to a hospital. and the closest host. was in Raton, New Mexico right up near the state line. That's close to the hospital. 'Cause she was delirious. - Delirious and suffering from pain all over her body. So they take her up there. And fortunately, the baby was taken there too to the needle, needle care or the pediatric care unit there. So they examined her and said, "Well, man, you've been raped." And she said, "Oh, no, I was in my class." She tells the story. Well, jump the next afternoon, the captain comes to our office with her and tells us a story. And I take the, you know, I'm there and listen to the captain and she's out in a waiting room. She's not in back, 'cause my area was all secure. I listened to him, I said, "This is what she told you?" Yeah, I said, and she was raped by somebody. Yeah, I said, "Well, why do you think it's UFO related?" She says she was taken out of a vehicle into the, into the flying saucer. Okay, I don't believe it. It's okay. So I said, "Well, whatever you heard, but I have to have a female agent." So we had him, but the one was out. We had to wait a while. When we get her back there, we get the female agent and she tells us a story. Just as I told you that she's driving and she pulls off and the lacar lights up and she doesn't know where she went and she wakes up on the shoreline of this lake. And she panics because her baby's not there. And I said, "Well, what happens?" No, I don't know. I said, "Who raped you?" I don't know. I said, "But you knew you were raped?" No, I don't know, that's what the doctor told me. I said, "Okay." So, "Okay, you raped, that's off base." That's onions kind of let the state police handle that. You know, we're gonna, so we coordinate with state police and they say, "Yeah, we got investigators doing that." We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna, so they think the two fishermen might be involved in this. - Right. - They, you know, they, back then they didn't have DNA but they have-- - Brought them in for questioning. - They have secretions. If you were a secretor of something, you can tell. Well, she didn't have any cement in her. - Yeah. - So they cleared them, I guess. And so then we started delving into it. Well, I didn't, another agent comes in and takes the case. So that's all I was involved in that. But months later, I was told by this other agent, female agent, that it was legitimate. She just came out in my office and she says, "Do you remember the certain case?" Yeah, legitimate and walked out. - Well. - So that was my limited briefing and excess. - Wow, so it really happened. - What's your best guess is to why, and it's mostly women. Why the abduction's take place? - They're interested in our body structures. Their bodies, their biologics are entirely different than ours. Their makeup of our skin, their skin, everything's different. Eyes are different, they're interested in us. And they're interested in how we populate, how we can move, how our eyes move, what we see, when we, all these things they're interested in. And this is me, this is Rick Dodie talking. This isn't something I read out of some vacuum. - Sure. - I think that they're so interested in us that they want to experiment with us, but they don't want to harm us. And that's why all these abductions are occurring and from different species, and they're just trying to examine us as we would them. We have, and now I'm talking from experience, we have extraterrestrials and captivity. I know that, I saw one, at least one. I know that there were others. There were, I think 24, six, no, 30. There were 30 environmental cages or facilities that could house them, different types of environment. Some were the extraterrestrials, or breathing a little bit of methane. And so all this is happening, I know it. And so we're experimenting, during the figure out what these things are, we have dead bodies of them in crash sites. We're doing autopsies on them. I know that from people like Kit Greene and others that worked for the Institute for Armed Forces Institute for Pathology. - Kit Greene, did autopsies? - Well, he saw the aftermaths, red reports. I'll show you a picture of Kit Greene to me here afterwards. And so I know what I know, and I know that that's what they're interested in. Now, technically of what they're doing and how they're doing it and what they're doing with it, I don't know, I would know. And I don't know what we're doing with their stuff because I don't have a need to know that. And I've never was in a position to have access to that type of information. - You know, well, it's as good as guests as any, I think. - Yeah, exactly. You know, well, they want to know us. They don't want to know why we're, and again, you look at it in a different way, the Linda Howe way. And God bless Linda Howe, she's a heck of an investigator and they're fantastic, for the Lord. That they've been here before us, or they put us here, maybe they were here before us. I, this is Rick Dody talking only. I thoroughly believe we had a civilization on Earth beings of years ago. And that they killed themselves with nuclear weapons because you can go to places, and I've been there, in Malaysia, in one place in Australia, where there's remnants of radiation that has gone through their life, their half-life and full-life, which is means and means of years. And you can find that stuff. Well, we didn't have radiation, nuclear weapons, means and millions of years ago. - And that couldn't be some type of like a radiated element like that's like plutonium or uranium or something. - I think the experts are saying, some of these trace elements that they found were isotopes from. - Explosion. - I and I's radiation that we would have used in making a nuclear weapon. - Hello. Interesting. - And so I think, at some point, I think there was a reset-- - There was a reset. - There was a life on Earth years. And maybe they went someplace, and maybe they went into another dimension, maybe they do live in another dimension. Underground or the bottom of the ocean. - Yeah. - I have interviewed and they've been on Gaia, interviewed subring commanders that will swear that there's civilizations on the bottom of the ocean. - Have you looked into the 4chan whistleblower as it were, the guy who came out and talked about mobile construction units in the ocean, namely off the coast of in the Bahamas. - Bahamas, yeah. - Yeah, what do you make of that? - That's possible. - You've never had any crossover to like naval intelligence in that regard. - One particular case that I worked was with naval intelligence. Well, I'm sorry too. One that Jamie Shanderer's stuff that I talked about earlier. And then this other case, about what this. I got to be careful, yeah, I can say. This guy was a crew member on a submarine in probably 70s, I don't know. Yeah, it would have been in the 70s. They went someplace. They found something. He took a piece, a widget. And he took it and he got out of the Navy and he lived in Albuquerque, New Mexico. He worked on Kirtland Air Force Base as a civilian for a contractor. And he gave this widget to the contractor to try to figure out what it was. And naval intelligence had gotten in for me. I can't go in all that, but they knew all about this. And they came, double-curking and said, "We need to go find this guy. We need to go, you know, bully man. We need to get the FBI involved 'cause this is a being now." I said, "Okay, we're federal agents and we could still do things, but we're just like to have FBI with us." Especially if it involves espionage because that's their building. So, you know, I get Jerry Brown, the guy I interface with the FBI, we go out to the base. I mean, yeah, to the base to contract the office. I can't tell you the contractor. And he is there. We walk in and he's standing there in front of us. Just happened to be walking out of this lab. And we calling by name and I said, "Yeah, you're so-and-so." And we all pull out our credentials, the FBI's, the OSI and NCIS, or NIS, we need to talk to you. He said, "They got it inside there, it's over there." So he said, "That's just first words." So, NCIS says, "Well, that's not good enough. Come on in here." So we went into the office in the coffee shop where he in, talked to him, and then we took him over to the OSI office and then he did all the interrogation and stuff. that. So that's the case. What happened to the widget? The government took it. Well, no, as you know what? I think they just kept it there at that lab because they're cleared for it. Oh, yeah. The lab was already. Yeah. So they just probably created some whatever the widget was. Yeah. Trying to figure out what the widget was. Yeah. That's the only other case that I worked with the naval intelligence. Yeah. Well, it's interesting too, because you have you have stories of the naval, the department of naval intelligence as well, not just the office of naval intelligence. And the department comes up with you know, Bob Lazar. And it comes up a few other places. I know John Stewart had done some due diligence on finding other instances of that being mentioned. Right. Have you ever run into the department of off of naval intelligence? Never. No, office of naval intelligence is the only thing that I ever ran it. And other than those two cases, I'm sorry, there was one other case where we were, no, we didn't have anything to do with you. Was it an SB Dodge case? And when I was involved in that. And we interfaced a little bit with that. Yeah, but never the department. No, you never heard of it. Nope. Not during my time. I never heard of it. Not during your time. But afterwards, you've heard of it because I heard of it through Bob Lazar and everything else. Okay. Okay. Oh, one more thing. I'm going to, I'm going to bring up some questions. We have audience questions that we like to bring up. Sure. They were, you know, told a viewer arrival 12 hours ago and they had limited time to ask questions. But, you know, the question board filled up as you can imagine. I bet. Yeah. But before we get there, I wanted to, I wanted to ask you about Lou Elizondo. There was mention some space force talk that you had run into Lou there. Is that accurate? Yeah, he called me a long time ago, uh, uh, in 2021 or 22. And we talked on a phone and he was wondering if I, he asked me if I was still working. And I said, no, which I wasn't. I was, I mean, other than the these and the guy and things. And he said, would you be interested in working for a space force and in the Conantosious office? I said, what? And I don't know who he is. Okay. At that point. Yeah. I said, no, I'm not interested. I said, I know a colonel up there. And I said, did he give you my name? He said, well, I can't say that. And, uh, so that was it. And then if another person from space force called me, you know, weeks later or something and asked me about working, uh, if I was interested in doing some field work, if I could so get my security clearance back, he said, I, I understand you spoke with and he gave me a name of somebody. Well, this was a bed of 2022. I'm sorry. Uh, I said, yeah, I just was up there. In, in January 2022, I was called up to Washington to the defense, uh, IG's office. Uh, they wanted to talk to me about some of the cases I ran, uh, as an OSI agent. And I said, sure. You know, do I get my security clearance back? Uh, oops. And I said, he said, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can talk about it. And it gave me a report. They passed a report to me. And the report is heavily redacted. He said, you do recognize this report. And I'm looking at it and I go and I look and I said, yeah, that's the report I did in, in 1981, but I said, I don't remember everything in here. Do you got one that's not redacted? He said, no, OSI won't give it to us. It's still classified. I said, why did you give me this? He said, we just need to know about it. I said, well, I can tell you what I remember. It's nothing about what we spoke of here. And I told him what I could, could remember. Well, then in, uh, that person's name was given to me from that person from a space force. And, and, and I came, I went back there in September of 2022 and they had an unreacted report that I talked to them about. So that's, uh, that's, that's, that's all. And I never worked for space force. I never promised the work for space force. So what space force is interest in wanting to work, uh, in, in, in wanting to hire you potentially for counterintelligence. I never got that far. But I mean, you, you can surmise. Well, I think, I think they want, they, they wanted to, uh, contract me to do what I did before as a contractor, uh, and, um, cover up UFO stuff. Yeah. Spying people for UFO. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's what I think. Again, I don't know. I can assume that too, because otherwise, you know, go get someone who's, you know, uh, green around the gills or whatever, and, you know, um, yeah. So that's really interesting. And what are these here? We have project capstone, white, Auburn, blue, med lap star, candid sky. Those are all cases that I, uh, briefly spoke about here. Sureing. Okay. You can't say which one's wish. And these are all the cases. Those are all the case files that I did that we can. Oh, I'll tell you, I tell you that's been on the internet for, yeah, about four years and a million people's for you. In fact, the for you monitor of a woman, uh, fault. I think her name is fault. No, what's I called me up and said, you don't know what you've done. I said, uh, well, you'll get some, but they're heavily redacted. Of course. In fact, this one here, 82 is right here. You, you can get that one. It's 87 page of nothing. There's not, not even the page numbers are really simple. Oh, wow. It's just stupid. It's just all redacted. It's all redacted. And, and I'd say that one probably is, it should be that's it. But there's some that are redacted that are bullshit. They should wait. Why should that one be redacted? Because it involves something very, very, very sensitive and it would disclose sources and methods. And it would, uh, in general, national security. And it has to do with aliens. Definitely. Whoa. Are we talking treaty level stuff? I don't know about treaties, but I don't believe in we ever had a treaty with them. But that's be, but there's some here that are are redacted that should never be redacted. I mean, maybe, yeah, some of the things that a pilot, most of that's a lot of that, not most of it. Some of it involves pilots. Yeah. Um, pilots flying classified missions, seeing UFOs. And the fact that their mission was classified, uh, you can't talk about that. And they, they had a close encounter. They had a, yeah, you know, they saw the UFO chase them or they chased it or they shot it down or there's just true and error. They actually shot down something, but it minted itself and it flew back. It was like, uh, uh, this, this is way before Transformers movie ever came out. But you had, I mean, you know, I, as a kid, I had one of those, you know, and, um, this, this pilot, and I can't go into great details. It was flying a classified mission and he's, he's covering for this other aircraft. And, uh, this is in the United States. I can tell you they're flying out of the Groom Lake area. And this thing comes up, uh, a flying saucer comes up and almost hits his cockpit. I mean, just, as it can't be almost, just goes right over it. It really pisses him off. So he banks and he goes after it and he's protecting this other flying, highly classified craft and it goes down and he goes down and shoots it, he shoots at it with his, uh, side to wonder missile. Uh, two of them and it hits it and it crashes. Now, he's in a jet so he can't, you know, he's laying land. So he's circling it. And this thing, he says, it prepared itself and it flew away. And it reminded me of the transformer, you know, movies. Yeah. I like those things. But, but something like that was in that report. And, yeah, I guess that that would be classified, um, the, the details. And there's a lot more to that than I can't talk about. There's, uh, is there a lot of alien encounters in these? Uh, a few, there's a few. There's, there's one that's, uh, probably the best story is, uh, you want to hear? Yeah, please. This Air Force pilot, um, loves, uh, fishing. So he's up in a lake, uh, Northern and Mexico lakes, all the way to place, uh, fishing, uh, just him. He's camping too. He, he sets up his, a tent and, you know, he's camping as there's a stream and then there's a lake, very small lake. And he's fishing. And there's a clearing. Uh, he's in a brewery. Would it area except for the lake and then off to his, uh, north, uh, yeah, northwood is a clearing. And one morning he gets up and he eats his breakfast and he goes and throws pulled in and he's, he hears a sound. He, he says, I've never heard the sound before. He said it's like a pulsing, boom, boom, boom, boom, sound. And he looks, and it looks he thought something, it's like something shooting down something, maybe a pulse ray or something. And that's what he's thinking. He's a pilot. He's an Air Force pilot. He flies a seven Ds as jets. And so he sees it and it starts to come down and it's something's pulsating under it. This is flying saucer. So he immediately goes over and he has a camera. In fact, one of those Polaroids. Polaroids, he has in his tent 'cause he always takes pictures of his fish. He gets his Polaroid camera and he comes out because then he drops his pole. He goes over to the clearing to the tree line to take pictures of this. And he said from the tent to the tree line this may be 60, 70 yards, you know. He gets over and he's waiting and he starts taking pictures. And next thing you know, there's two beans right next to him. He says, "Scared him, he dropped his camera." And these things were like seven foot tall. They had helmets on, he couldn't see their face and he goes into the whole details of what they did. And he thought, "Oh my God, they're gonna abduct me." That's what he's thinking. Now, this is interesting because he wasn't briefed into UFOs of what a pilot would normally get training and they do to get some of that. He didn't know about about abductions but that came into his mind and that was interesting the interview and interrogation later about why he thought that. But anyways, he looks and these things are, and then he starts hearing voices in his head and he thought they're communicating with me. So he sits down and he never could explain why he sat down but he sat down on the ground and he doesn't know how long this occurred but when he woke up, he was in the sleeping bag in his tent. It was dark. He knows that he got up at seven in the morning. He knows he made breakfast and had a campfire and he went fishing and it was like 15 or 20 minutes after some fishing that this happened. So he figured it was about 8.30 in the morning and when he looked at his clock, it was 21.30, 9.30 at PM. He doesn't know what happened and he was obscured. He goes over to the tree line where he dropped his camera. Polar, it was still there, Polar was still there. And he knew he took two pictures of the craft. He thought he had taken one of them. Well, the pictures of the craft were there. You know, they pop out and they're on the ground. One had been, you know, when you don't take the picture, it's kind of smudged. One was unrecognizable but one wasn't. - Very clear. - Very clear. Well, he comes into the OS, he calls the OSI office Monday. This happened on, I think, a Sunday, Saturday Sunday. He calls the OSI office, he says I need to come in to talk to somebody and this is what he said. All of the phones are what calls are recorded. And there's just a clerk that takes the call to the secretary, the town of Asian. I need to come in and talk to somebody that handles UFOs. That's our flying saucers and the secretary says, okay, what happened? I think I was abducted and I need to talk to somebody. I'm a captain and I see Sarah Forrest and she said, well, it's just a minute. So she puts on the agent that's duty agent. - Yeah. - Now they counterintelligence. - Oh, okay. - So that agent, then I just get to the office and I just sit down and I'm in the security. It takes me back. I had to unlock everything to get there. And my intercom race is Richard, you got a call on nine, whatever. I'm big enough to see how this is special. He said, don't do me help you. - Yeah, do you have enough flying saucers? And I think he's a cook, 'cause I get these. I said, well, yeah, what would you see one? Yeah, I saw one. I took a picture of one. I'm a captain in the United States Air Force. And when he talked, I thought he was boy, this is a boy shit call. I said, okay. I said, where are you stationed at? He said, I'm stationed at Kirkland. I said, okay. I said, well, why don't you come down to the OSI office? And he said, I thought I had to make a appointment. I said, just come down to the OSI office, I'll look at it. So he comes down and he, you know, an hour later, whatever it was, he comes in. He's an uniform. I said, I have a seat, captain. I said, what happened? And he tells me the whole story that I just told you. I saw his picture, he pulls the cross. And it's a picture of something, it wasn't on the ground, it was hovering. But there's distortion under it. Hmm. Like something's blocking, you know, the something's blocking the view of the other side. Like a pulse or something. I said, where did you, and 80,000, my story? And I said, wow. I said, we did you have missing time? And he said, yeah, about 10 hours. I said, hmm, okay. We'll need to, we'll need to start an investigation on this. And we did. And you know, number one, he's a Captain United States Air Force. He's a pilot. He passed the polygraph. He passed the hypnosis. He has a picture, he has evidence. Yeah. So we go back up there like four, five days later. It's a 250 miles north of, we're curling. But we went up there myself and, and another agent and him. We followed him up there. He took us to, you had to park and walk a distance down to where he was at. His tent was still there. I said, well, we walked down. I said, somebody's camping. He said, I wasn't my tent. I said, you left your tent? He said, I got, I had to get out of here. Perfect quickly. So his fish and pole was still down by the water. So everything he told us, yeah, check out evidence is there. So I said, what, where did you wake up? He said, I woke up on a tent and my sleep bag. So we took the sleep bag as evidence. You know, and we took his clothes. I said, we need to close it. You were wearing, you know, trace evidence and stuff. And he did. And so that was a legitimate incident. And that's, that's one of these cases here. That's absolutely real. Wow, I feel like that one can be unredacted. Oh, absolutely, most of it can be because it's anecdotal. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. If you don't provide the photo or anything else, I mean, it's just anecdotal, interesting, interesting. Okay, I'm going to, I got a camera back here. I'm going to turn it on so that we can film this thing. And we'll get to some questions. Okay. How are you feeling? Good. All right. For those in the know, if you're a member here, you get access to our discord and on that when we have guests here alerted maybe 12 hours in advance about the guest. And you have an opportunity to ask the guest a question. Well, this time, I think, I think the prompt was enough for 10 minutes before it started getting flooded. So clearly sparking some interest here. And we're going to get to the first question. So thank you to everybody who asked questions. Sorry, I couldn't get through all of them. But here we go. Okay, some of these we've actually answered. So I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to skimpass them. This is an interesting one. And this one, what is your conviction on the portal somewhere in the US that Cooltard alludes to Ross Coldtard talked about? I think a portal in perhaps Sonoma or that area. What's your conviction level? Well, this goes back to a rather long story about time travel. But make it as short as I can. I was involved in a counterintelligence operation. A Sandia National Avertories had a operation where they were experimenting with time travel, trying to, trying to create time travel. And it was being done there at Curtlyn and also out in Nevada test site. Well, they had advertisements in different magazines. Of course, the internet wasn't around back in that days. And so this person responded to Sandia Lab and said, I'm a time travel and I can prove it. We did a full investigation. This guy went down to Arizona near Sedona and said, I can walk through a time portal and then come back out. Sandia went down there. We all went down there. This guy we thought was full of it. But he actually walked through something and to the best of my knowledge, you know, although I didn't do a lot of follow-up on this. He's never returned. Do you saw this? I saw this. You saw him walk into a portal. I saw him walk through a crevice in Iraq. It was a rock-faced, and it was a small crevice. And he walked through that crevice. And it was in anything, nothing on the other side. It was being filmed. fit in the crevice? He barely fit in the crevice. And we were some distance away from him. And then somebody said, well, okay, he's in there. And so we waited. We, you know, his story was he was going to go in and then come back out and bring something from. And I don't remember what was from the past or the future. I don't remember that. And he never came out. At least the longest, we were there for hours and hours and he never came out. We went down there, I was saying to you, I was going down there and, and other contractors and looked at the crevice and figured, you know, how did he get out of here? And it seems so silly to me that one can just call the, the most, you know, secured sort of facilities that are doing the most sensitive, technical, technological advancements that, you know, US Department of Defense has ever seen and could just claim they're a time traveler. And you'll, you'll, you know, send out people and have a budget approved to go follow these people who just claim these things. Well, I gave you the short version. Oh, I see. There was a lot of background checks on this guy. We did background background background. And that this was makes it really interesting. The only, the only date of birth for that name of that person that we could find and we have even back in the 80s, we had, you know, the defense index of indices. We had the FBI, the IRL, everything. We, we searched everything with somebody it was born in 18, 1879. And I think it was, someplace, I think it was Billings of Montana, but someplace else. I think it was Montana. That's the only name we could find that fit that person. And so was that who he was claiming to be? He was claiming to be that person. And he gave us all sorts of, I mean, and again, I wasn't the main person that investigated him. Other agents did that. So I don't know everything that was done. But, you know, I had a report that I'd read. They went out to where he claimed he lived in Barstow, California. They checked his residence. They checked where he supposedly worked. He claimed he'd worked in some place in Ben Oregon in 1934 or something like that, some, some date. They went up there. The company didn't exist anymore. Nobody knew anything about. So there was no checking. He couldn't check. He claimed he was something in 1920. I can't remember something about 1920 where he was in New York or on a ship or something and they couldn't find anything. There was something else that they found that verified that name. I think it was in a ship manifest from Cuba to to New York in 19 something, 1907 or something, a name. How strange. But they did all that stuff. So in somebody, you know, I guess Sandy Labs decided they were going to hire him. If you can do this, and they did a lot of background, they did a lot of examination of him, psychological and physical and all that. And that's something they did. I wasn't involved in that. Was there any other instances of time travel that you were maybe briefed on? Yes, but that was part of the Sandy Labs experiments and I'm pretty sure that's still probably proprietary. But there were I think two cases where there was legitimate evidence of something traveling. What's your back in time? I think it was, yeah. Which back in time is interesting. What's your conviction level on looking glass? I don't know enough about it. I just know what I've read in open sources, but I don't know anything. Never come across any type of device that peers into time. Oh, yeah, the widget. Let's go back to the widget. We got a widget from our friends or visitors. Well, like the yellow book. Yeah, yellow book. So that's the yellow book. And that's your high conviction on that? That's my only. I mean, I've heard other people talk, but me personally, I didn't experience anything regarding time travels. Other than what I saw during the experiments that were happening at other places like in Nevada Test Site, there was an underground facility that he's huge magnets and he was shooting things through the magnets. Again, I'm not a scientist. So I'm just lay, lay persons explaining what I saw. And I saw one time and they were doing an experiment, something opened. And a scientist was just standing next to me. I said, "What's that?" He said, "You just saw the fabric of space opening." Well, for a split, I mean, it wasn't like it opened just for a split second. I mean, or whatever second. But that's, I saw that. And so they, in 1980s, they were able to do that. So just imagine what they could do now. I can't. We spoke about this at dinner yesterday, but with the exponential growth of technology and how fast that's moving, what looks like the South Bomber in 2010 to the people in 1980 might look futuristic. But what 30 years from now looks like would be indistinguishable from alien tech? I believe. I think that anything we see that's 30 years advanced with the exponential growth, including AI and everything else. I mean, I don't even think we could imagine what that might look like in 30 years. Did you, have you ever heard of a linecaster incident? No. Landcaster Pennsylvania? You never heard of that? There's a story that was written in a book and Bill Moore had to book. It's an old, old book. I was written in an 18, you know, something. Anyways, Lancaster, Pennsylvania during the Civil War. There was a photographer that was at a battlefield. I think he was Union, for sure he was Union. Anyway, because I had the big cameras and they took this picture of the battlefield. But in the background of that picture, you would see a jet which looked to me like a B1B bomber. How would that happen? And so, I mean, there was a guy that spoke to UFO conventional way back about 2005 or 2006 about that picture. But all he had was that picture. There's no explanation, no evidence of the real, you know, nobody has it. It's a picture of a picture of a picture. Yeah, you see those photos pop up where like, oh, is this a time traveler? Is that type of stuff? How did, how did that plane get there? Yeah, that's interesting. All right, let's get to the next question. Thanks for answering that. This is a good one from Chris in Austin, Texas. He asks, what was the most serious UAP incident or a slashing counter that you were briefed on? I think, you know, speaking about that, Air Force captain, yeah. Yeah, probably, yeah, that was probably be the, yeah, the, the most serious. There was another incident. I wasn't, again, directly involved in it that happened actually within the Nellis test and range. That was incredible. And I actually have the statement from the guy that sent me this, he was actually there and it happened in the 70s. It happened in 19, well, yeah, if you read that and you read the, a certain Air Force person that came out saying that he was involved in some incident, this is a story that was, I talked about on Gaia four years before this particular Air Force guy came out to public. So, and what exactly goes on here? This, there was an Air Force team out at Nellis test and training range that was going from one place to another in a ran across the next address from walking along the road. Right. Whoa. And the panic, the vehicle shut down. They, they had a radio in their vehicle and they tried to call for help. They finally got a, got a worker. That wasn't a policeman or anything or a camel dude, but to report it with that unit was reported to to OSI, that kind of follows the same story that another person who we've talked about. But this happened and, you know, and the same time period that he's talking about. But this is verified. - This isn't like, I mean, you've heard of the Jason Sands. - Jason Sands, that's what I'm talking about. - Yeah. - I don't want to name, you mentioned his name so. - Yeah, so that's similar. - Similar. - Or, Jason got it from here. - I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. - But, yeah, in and around the same timeframe area as well. - Yeah, same. - Being as well described. - Being blue skinned, or, yeah, wow. - But if you go to a guy at, I think it was episode 80 or something. This was told. - Right. - And that's two years before Jason Sands came out. - I see. I see. So you're saying that there might be some type of overlap in the absence of this serial. - Maybe they just had a different incident. I'm not saying Jason Lyon, I'm just saying it. - Yeah. - Doesn't fit. - Yeah, one of the stories is already out there. So it definitely takes away from some of the credibility. - Right. - Yeah, okay. Fair enough. I think, I think we have one more here. Actually, let me ask you one last question. See if you want to, maybe a bit of a game. Can you give me two truths in a lie? - Two truths in a lie. - And I won't attempt to guess anything. And we'll just leave it at that. So you can say, whatever. - Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, we actually played this game and it tells us this operation, of course. - Interesting. - It's each other for a psychological test. Yeah. I'm not going to tell you, okay. - Don't tell me anything, just-- - Okay. In 1980, I was driving from New Mexico. I was stationed in Mexico. I was driving from one place to another to pick up a good friend of mine. He came in at a airport that wasn't an Albuquerque airport. Okay. And along the way, after I picked him up, I was in Santa Fe. I was coming back in Interstate 25. And he said, he pointed to Sandy Acrest, which is a big mountain there. I don't know if you've been to Albuquerque but. And he said, there's a tram that goes up there, right? I said, yeah, yeah, there's a tram, an important tram. He said, can you take me up there? I said, sure, so as we turn to go up that road, we see the tram going up and above the tram was this object following the tram up to the top of the mountain. Okay. In about 1965, I wrestled in high school. And I was at a, we were wrestling our, our rival school and the wrestling programs for the school was really a rival. You know, one match we'd beat then, they'd beat us. And as you, if you know about wrestling, you start at lower weights and you work up. And I was at 130 pound class and I was wrestling the, he was a runner up the state the year earlier. And we were tied at that point 'cause we had other matches and I wrestled this guy and I beat him on one, I beat him at almost, 'cause three minute rounds, the third round, I came within a second opinion. I get the predicament, which is a point and I win by one point. In, let me see, this would have been in 2015. No, 2014, I went to Laos. I was involved with this group that was still looking for POWs in Laos and I was a Laos with this group of people to go to a certain location, to try to find evidence of whether these POWs that were at this site was called MSI-85, was any remnants of it or because the site has been excavated by the military before. So I went there with this group and we found some, that remains, but we found some evidence of something that had occurred there. Those are my three stories. - Amazing, thank you for sharing that. I'll let the audience decide. Maybe leave your comments below one, two, or three. Which one is the lie? - Lastly, I just wanna leave you with this. Richard Dodie, how do you wanna be remembered? - Oh, wow. Well, I wanna remember, as a person who did their duty during my government service, I was in a regular Air Force. I had distinguished duty in a regular Air Force. I went to intelligence for a number of years. I did my duty. I did what I was told to do, how I was told to do it and when I was told to do it. So, I know there's a lot of animosity out there of what I did, especially during the pub. Then it was case, which really didn't go into a lot, details on it. There's a lot more to that story. But I wanna remember, as being a person who did their job, did their duties to their country. And then afterwards, I served also in trying to get this, story out, disclose your out. That's why I'm here. That's why I've done over 200 episodes in Gaia. That's why I'm open to podcasters or I made videos or I have the dirty chronicles out there. I'm telling this story as much as I can without disclosing classified information or jeopardizing national security. That's why how I wanna be remembered. - Thank you so much for sharing all that. I really appreciate your time. I appreciate you coming out here and visiting us and sharing your stories with my audience. And I can't wait to see how this is received, to be honest. There's a lot here. Thank you for your time, Richard. - You're a very welcome, Chris. (dramatic music)