FORMER CIA OFFICER: How To Know You’re Being Followed, Earn Anyone's Trust & Secrets From My Family

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Head back to class with the number one gummy supplement brand. Stock up on ollie.com today. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. There's CIA agents all around us. It could be somebody that we know. My job as a mom and my job as a CIA officer intersected all the time. You weren't even able to tell your children. You're teaching them not to lie. At the same time, though, when I'm out there recruiting spies, I'm not entirely truthful with them. I have to get them to trust me as their friend so that they will tell me the secrets. How do you know if you're being followed? You do what we call stair-stepping. How much does somebody get paid to be a spy? Oh, gosh. What is the number one thing you can do to build trust with somebody? We use what we call the recruitment cycle. Do it on me right now. I was very pregnant on my way to meet an agent from a country that was not friends with us. If I had gone into labor, on this train, give birth in a different name, that would have been complicated. And I was worried about missing the meeting with my agent. If you can't attend that meeting, that could put the other agent's life in danger. The adrenaline is flowing. The hair on the back of the neck is up. I asked myself then, why did I do this job? Why did I leave my two little kids home? Have you ever had a situation where you have an agent that gets exposed? There have been many agents caught and killed. What is the scariest thing that you can recall happening during one of these meetings? Here I was in the dark. My wife is convinced that she would make the best CIA agent. And you know what? I'm actually not unconvinced that she wouldn't. That's great. So I wanted to kind of start by asking, how does one become a CIA agent? In my case, I considered the CIA because of the international nexus it had. I really, really wanted to work and live overseas. I had spent time studying overseas. I had spent time studying abroad. I had spent time traveling overseas. So for a profession, I wanted a career that would allow me to do that. And more than just travel for two weeks here and there. So it was the international idea that I really, really was attracted to. So I applied to a lot of different places. I've applied to banks, international banks and nonprofit organizations and the CIA. So and back then, years ago, I didn't really know what I was getting myself into. I applied. I said, oh, this will be great. This is really exciting. But because so little was there was no Internet, first of all, and so little was written about the agency, I didn't know really what I was applying for. It was only when I got in that I realized the importance of the job, the excitement, the challenge, the difficult parts of the job. And then I realized, OK, I am cut out for this because it does take a certain kind of person to be in the clandestine service. Now, there are a lot of people that work for the agency. And various directorates and various components, everything from accounting and lawyers to analysts. But the clandestine service is different. That's where you're undercover. You don't talk about your job. You are really there to recruit spies. I mean, I imagine tens of thousands of people that work for the CIA. And regardless of your position within the CIA, you have to be confidential about what you do. Like nobody can disclose that they work for the CIA. That's not true. There are covert people. I was in the CIA. I was undercover. And in that case, you do not ever talk about your job. Certainly you're undercover. You don't talk about being employed by the CIA. There are many people that are overt that do on their W-2 forms. For example, it says Central Intelligence Agency. But it doesn't make sense and it's not smart to talk about that. Even people who are overt to go around saying, I work for the CIA. If you're a covert CIA agent, not even on your taxes do you say who you work for? No, of course not. No. So who knows outside of your employer? My husband knew. My father knew. My wife knew when I first applied and that's it. Actually, maybe my brothers. So there probably were no more than five people that knew my entire career that I worked for the CIA. So you're allowed to tell certain select family members? Spouse. A spouse. Primarily, yes. And is that still true today? It should be true. Yes, it is true. Now, there are people I'm sure that might not disclose very much to their spouses, but that's a mistake. Wow. The spouses are really a very important part of our work. Yeah. I relied on my spouse enormously. My husband was great. He was the one that, he knew what I was trying to do. He knew the kinds of people I wanted to recruit. So he would be smart about talking to people and then letting me know if that was somebody maybe I was interested, I could be interested in. And it's not right to keep, to lie to your spouses or to skirt around the truth. There are certain people, colleagues and your spouse that you really have to be upfront with. Even in your case, like you weren't even able to tell your children. Nope. You have five children. Right. And none of them knew that you were working for the CIA. None of them knew. My oldest daughter learned when she was in middle school. This is Claire. Claire. By happenstance. Who's in the room with us today. Yeah. She was friends with the daughter of my boss. And they were talking and as middle school girls do. And she told Claire, "Well, you know, your mom works for my dad and they both work for the CIA." That's how Claire found out. The other four learned the night before my retirement party. Because I wanted them to come into headquarters, walk across the seal, and experience that, and join me at my retirement party. So they learned the night before I retired. I think as a parent myself, right, it's incredibly difficult when you're trying to balance the line of like teaching our children to always be truthful, right? And I know as a dad, sometimes I'm a little guilty because I have young kids and, you know, thankfully they can't fully read yet. So if I tell them. Like if they say, "Dad, we want to go to, you know, Kid's Empire, this play place on a, you know, school night at 6:00 PM," I could say, "No, that place is closed." And they're just not at the point yet where they can look it up for themselves. But at the same time, I feel guilty when I tell them to always tell the truth. So there's little like subtle white lies, you know, that I think parents tell with their children as they're growing up. I can't imagine how tough it is to live a completely hidden life. So how is that as a mom? To be living a life that you're not honest with your children about. That's a good question. Going back to the personality characteristics, you have to know, you have to know where that line is and you have to be truthful and you have to teach your kids. It is quite a dichotomy. You're teaching your kids right from wrong. At the same time though, day to day, when I'm out there recruiting spies, I'm not entirely truthful with them. I have to make sure that they, or I have to get them to trust me. Trust me as their friend, so that they will tell me the secrets. I have to essentially work them, work the system, work the people in the room that I'm trying to recruit to get them to confide in me. So it's night and day. It's really very different. You have to know where that line is. When my kids were young and I was reading them books, I would fall asleep or skip pages as I was reading them a book to get to the end because I was tired and they do it now. Then they get older and they realize, wait just a minute, I know that story. I've heard this part of the story before. Yeah, and it's not, so you want to raise your children to be good citizens, good citizens of the world, to listen to other people, to tell the truth, to be kind. And some of those same traits are not going to be the ones that you discuss with your agents. It's very different. And it's not like you told them mommy's going to be home tomorrow morning, knowing that you weren't going to be home for a week, right? And your children thought that you were an ambassador. Yeah. An ambassador for the education. A diplomat. A diplomat. A diplomat, right. Okay, so. For the government, for the State Department. For the State Department. Involved in political and economic issues. And they knew that I was working. And they knew if I was not there at home, I was at work. So they didn't really question too much. Mom was at work. When they were younger, growing up, you know, like any of us, mom and dad go to work. They come home. That's their life. You know, I think a lot of parents or just a lot of people in general. Even if you don't have children, we all struggle with work-life balance, right? And I think a lot of us take whatever has happened at our workplace, whether you run your own business, whether you work for somebody. And we're thinking about these problems at home, right? Even if it's checking your emails after hours, or you're still thinking about that conversation that you had with a coworker, or you're dealing with some sort of a stress. And it's hard to unplug. How do you differentiate between an agent? agent, versus an agent. the mother, the wife, do you find those identities clashing at times? What is your advice? The interesting thing about my job was that it was turned off when I went home because we couldn't bring any work home, obviously. Let me clarify. I couldn't bring work home. I certainly didn't talk to my husband about it or certainly didn't talk to my kids, didn't talk to the neighbors. Now, it wasn't turned off in that I still had to go out and meet agents. I still had to go out to receptions and try to recruit new people. So my job as a mom and my job as a CIA officer intersected all the time. They were two, I'll say, 24-7 jobs, no doubt about it. My job as an undercover officer, I was always, always looking for people that might have access to intelligence, whether I was at the grocery store, whether I was at a reception, as I said, whether I was at a school. Barbecue, always looking for that. I was also meeting agents at night, weekends, wherever. But as a mom, of course, that's a 24-7 job. You're always having to make sure your kids are taken care of, fed, nurtured, taught things, driven here, driven there. I have so many examples of where my life, my lives, these two lives intersected constantly. For example, I was very pregnant. Uh, very pregnant, almost nine months pregnant, traveling across several countries. I was on my way to meet an agent. Uh, it was an agent that I recruited probably about 12 months before. She was from a country that was not friends with us. Meeting her, we were getting great intelligence from her. So they were very important meetings. And for her security, I was traveling in alias. I was not using my real name. I had a little bit of documentation in this alias, this fake name, essentially. But to her, I was almost nine months pregnant. And if I had gone into labor on this train and had to get off and go into a hospital without any documentation of my true name, give birth in a different name, that would have been complicated. I was worried about that. And I was worried about missing my agent's meeting, meeting with my agent, if I was in fact in the hospital, because that would have put her at risk. This whole, uh, these two lives constantly intersected. I was, um, off. Often using my kids to create these fake play dates because I wanted to meet and talk and get to know maybe the father or the mother. So I would invite them over with their kids, make my kids play with their kids while I could talk to the mother, father for my own reasons. Again, the intersection. So there was no real time where, um, I could separate the two. Now, at the same time, because I was undercover, I didn't talk about my job or we didn't, you know, discuss it with, you know, anybody at home, but it was always thinking, always thinking, oh, would that person be of interest for me from a work standpoint? Or how do I get a doctor's appointment for my daughter, uh, quickly if I needed to? Could I do that when I was having, when I had a meeting scheduled with an agent? Those meetings are pre-planned. We schedule those long time in advance. And many times to meet an agent, I can't just certainly can't just call the agent and say, oh, sorry, I can't make that day. We're going to make another day. It's pre-planned and it's very sensitive and difficult to get to. Well, what if I had a doctor's appointment with my, one of my children or one of my children needed me at that particular time? That's comp, it was complicated. This podcast is brought to you by Factor. Between content travel, back-to-back shoots and running the studio, my eating habits really took a backseat. I knew I had to stop settling for the convenient, nice option that was in front of me and start giving my body the clean, wholesome feel that it actually needs to thrive. That's where Factor comes in and makes eating right. So effortless, even when you're completely on the go. Factor makes chef crafted, dietitian designed, ready to eat meals. So you don't have to choose between real food and convenience. Factor meals are ready in two minutes and require no prep. And no cleanup. So even on the days your schedule is completely full and out of control, eating well is still achievable. 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No, we're talking about an agent who's recruited, who is essentially committing treason for their own country. So let's clarify this. So you were, I've heard you say CIA officer and I say agent. Are those the same things? No, not at all. Okay. So I'm sorry. So you're a CIA officer. You applied to the CIA. You got hired. You worked for the CIA. Right. But then now we're talking about people. You recruit as well. Those are foreigners. They're agents. Okay. Oh, so those are agents. I see. Are they employed by the CIA or are they getting paid? They're getting paid. They're usually getting paid by us. I see. They're foreigners essentially committing treason against their country. I see. They have access to intelligence that our country needs to keep us safe. It could be anything from, you know, any terrorism issues or any kind of foreign policy issues. Anybody can highlight or anything. So agents are not people that thought that they were going to go work for the CIA. Well, they're not simply everyday people. They're people with access to intelligence. So it could be somebody who is in senior levels of their government. Somebody with the plans and intentions of a foreign government, plans and intentions to hurt us, to hurt the U.S. So there's CIA agents all around us and we just, it could be somebody that we know. They'll be overseas generally. They're overseas, right? Because we recruit, we work with them. We work overseas. We recruit people who have access to foreign governments. That's who we recruit. So there could be CIA officers around us. So we could, any one of us could have a CIA officer in our friend circle, could be at our PTA meeting, right? Perhaps. You never know. And you never know. Hopefully they're not disclosing that they work for the CIA because that puts them at risk and it puts their family at risk and it puts the agents that they recruit at risk. A, how do you identify somebody that would, be a good agent, and then B, what would be. a tactic that you would use to build a relationship or even get access to such a person? So we are trained and we use what we call the recruitment cycle. First, we have to find people. You have to find someone that has access to intelligence, access to the important things that our president, our National Security Council, that we need, that we want, our administration wants. It could be somebody at your school. It could be somebody you happen to run into at the grocery store. And you start talking to them. While you're living in a foreign place then. Right. It's not going to be in America. We're not going to be in America, right. These are going to be foreigners. You only recruit foreigners. So you're living in countries that you're trying to get information from or meet an agent that has access to you. It might not be anybody just from that country because they're foreigners. There are people from China, Iran, Russia that live everywhere, right? So it could be individuals from that country. If we're not friends with that country, or it could be foreigners that are in that country from other places. I see. So you first have to determine whether they have access to the intelligence by talking to them. But then you have to determine if they're the right kind of person that might spy for you. So we do a lot of assessment as you're, as I'm talking to somebody over coffee or in the park or over barbecue at my kid's school. How did you even identify that person as a person of interest? It could be just by chance. It could be by chance. Just by talking, because I'm out there all the time, I'm working, I'm socializing, I'm talking to people. So give me an example. Like someone says, "Oh, I happen to be the accountant of this prime minister," or something like that. Well, that's the beauty of this job. You elicit this information. You don't expect to talk to somebody at a grocery store line and they tell you that they're the accountant of somebody important. Right. But you start to just chat with somebody. So you don't have to. You don't have to have like a target list of like, "I need to get to these five people." It could be— Generally. Okay. But there's two ways. Either it's just by chance. I may be at a diplomatic reception, for example, and I'm working in the room. What do I mean by that? I talk to somebody. We chat a little bit. In 10 seconds, 20 seconds, I'll know whether that person's of interest to keep talking to. Maybe they're a British accountant to somebody in the British government. I'm not interested, right? UK, we're friends. I'm not going to spy on them. Then I talk to somebody else who says they're from the—they're in the Chinese embassy. Maybe I'll talk a little bit longer with them. So it could be by chance. Or it could be our headquarters analysts know of person A who's going to be at this spot at this time or is traveling from point A to point B, and we find a way to interject ourselves. And we know that that person is of interest. And so we now want to pursue that person. We know that. But it's not just that they have the access. They have to have the right— They have to have the right traits, the right personality traits. Are they trustworthy? I find out it's just by listening information from them. What are their hobbies? What do they like to do? Are they willing to take risks, but are they willing to take smart risks, calculated risks? We're having a conversation, and you tell me that you are a family man, that you really don't socialize with anybody else because all your interests are with your family, and you don't really know anybody else. That's what I'm saying. Maybe you're a little bit of an introvert. All you want to do is, "Okay, that might work. That might work." Then you tell me that, however, maybe you like to travel to maybe the islands, and all you want to do is go to the islands. Okay. That's great. And I'm building this profile of you. Maybe I find out that you like to read as well. You go to the islands and you like to read. Okay. That's interesting. But I know for a fact that you have interest or you have access to intelligence. That's something that, okay, that's good. That's established. Right. But I want to know if you're going to really be willing to talk about that. And over a period of time, you don't. Every time I try to get to where, "What are your thoughts on this or that from a foreign policy standpoint?" You clam up. Okay. All right. You trust me. You like me. We socialize, but you're not willing to cross that line. That's fine. But for example, not people, but for example, I could interact with the best case officer in the world from another country, but then I'm not going to spy for them. Right? I have the access, but there's not a line that I will cross. So you're going to determine that in a little bit over a period of time. Right. Or it might be that you have some concerns. Maybe you've got somebody who needs medical attention and you don't have the money for it. Maybe that's a motivational. I see. I have to look for the motivation. The weak spot, some way in. Absolutely. There's got to be some motivation for you to be willing to risk your career, risk your life perhaps, and talk to me. It's not going to only be money. If it's only money, if all you care about is money, that's not good enough. That's not something that's going to be sustainable. What would it be beyond money? It could be a concern for somebody in your family that needs help, medical help. It could be your country is just not going in the right direction, you don't believe in what your country is standing for. You believe in the democratic principles of the US for example. So what percentage of people that you've identified could be a good source of information do you think are actually willing to become spies? You could start with 100 people and you might find one that in the end will A have the access and B suitable from a personality standpoint. And the suitability, you might be suitable now and you might be a good candidate to recruit now. In fact, you are recruitable. But we constantly have to watch over the period of the relationship, we vet constantly. Maybe something's changed in your life and you are no longer willing to meet me. Maybe you've become scared. Maybe you become cavalier. Maybe you become careless. So we have to constantly watch that. So it's not just that I'm going to recruit you and you're going to be great and I'm done with my job. Absolutely not. It's constant checking, constant vetting to determine if you are still. It's a risky business, Dara. You can't assume that that person is going to be the right person forever. How much time will you spend trying to build a relationship with someone to see if they will be a spy? Depends on the kind of person you're talking to, right? It could be hopefully not years, but it certainly could be months. Then there's the odd instance where you might have a walk-in. We call them a walk-in. Somebody who comes to the embassy to sell their information, 99% of the time it's somebody who's just a walk-in. A wacko wants to sell information. But there might be that golden nugget, somebody, maybe a defector, who they have something that they want to sell you. That would be what? Instantaneous, right? We're going to vet them, but that would be no time at all. But generally, it's going to take months to develop that relationship where I can trust you. I know what you tell me is going to be accurate and you can trust me to protect you. Once I determine that though, then the relationship goes into. And I've recruited you. Then I'm training you. Now I have to train you to be a spy. I have to train you to elicit the information that I want. And how do you even get in the room with somebody that you're trying to build a relationship with? Let's say it's somebody specific, and it may not be that I may not be the best person. Maybe it's somebody else in our office that has the language skills, perhaps, or somebody who naturally would be in that environment, but they often call us case officers jacks of all trades. And we'll all of a sudden take up tennis if that's where they are all the time, or we'll be interested in tigers, and this person we know is a tiger fanatic. So you have to pivot. You have to be able to talk about anything and everything, essentially. It might take a little bit of research, but you have to be able to be legitimately interested in what they're interested in. That's what it takes. It's a lot of work, a lot of prep work to go into a meeting before I go to that conference, before I know that person's going to be. I'm going to know what that person likes, what that person's interested in. I'm going to know about that person's family. Not to be creepy, but I'm going to bump, bump that person over a coffee during a break in the conference, and I'll know a couple of things to mention that will get their attention. This podcast is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Now you guys can imagine that my schedule is pretty nonstop between long days on set running Dhar Mann Studios. I don't want to be chasing my kids around all at home. All I want to do is collapse into my bed at night and get a full restful night's sleep. Also, I run pretty hot, especially during the summer, and I'm used to waking up five different times a night, drenched in sweat, just trying to find a cool spot in my old and uncomfortable sheets. That's why I'm super excited to partner with Cozy Earth. 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Or Sam, who never goes anywhere without her roommate knowing exactly where she is. Some journeys are meant to be shared. Share your ride in real time with Share My Trip on Uber. I want to date with Rawls, Carty says. Rawls? Rucker asks. This is the love story of real hinge couple Carty and Rucker. Written and read by me, Nicola Dinan. This used to happen to me all the time, right? You go to these networking events. It's hard to strike conversation with people. Of course. How do you strike conversation? And you know a little bit that we're all here for sort of a certain reason, right? That is working the room. And there are people that can't do it, don't want to do it, more of a wallflower. They just maybe just stand there and drink their coffee. But if that's your personality, this job is not for you. You have to literally go up to people and start a conversation. And it's not hard. If you have any. any kind of social skills, you can go up and say, hey, where are you from? Or how long are you here? Or it's called working the room. And I'm sure, Dar, you do it all the time. But you're right. It's a certain kind of person that can do that. And interestingly enough, it takes no time to get that person to talk about themselves. So I go into a room and I go up and I introduce myself. And I'll say one or two things or one or two questions. Yeah. Hi, I'm Ann. Hey, Ann. How are you? Good. Your name is. I'm Dar. Oh, Dar. Nice to meet you. So, Dar, how long have you been here? Oh, I've just been here for 15 minutes. I'm just waiting for my wife. Oh, really? Oh, gosh. Where are you going from here? We have plans to take the kids somewhere fun, yeah. Oh, gosh. Oh, I miss my kids. I've got a few kids at home. Gosh. Are your kids young? Yeah, they're five, four, and six months. Five, six months? Yeah. Girls or boys? All girls. Oh, you're kidding. Oh, how cute. Yeah. Do you want to have more kids? Because I. I've got a lot of kids myself. Oh, yeah. That's my dream. I want to have a big family, yeah. Oh, that's neat. That's neat. Wow. That's great. Are they in school or. Yeah, two of them are. Oh. Not the six-month-old, obviously. Oh, wow. Yeah. Trying to delay that as long as I can to keep her at home. Do they all get along? All the girls get along? Oh, my gosh. Yeah, they're obsessed. I mean, but they're sisters, so, of course, like the five- and four-year-old fight a little bit, but. Have you lived in this area long? No, we're actually just visiting, yeah. Oh, gosh. Do you have family in the area? Yeah. No, we just kind of come here for a little. A little outing sometimes. Oh, neat. Yeah. That's great. Dar, I've learned a lot about you in the last 20 seconds. Oh, that's true, actually. And how would you, like, actually get to, like, getting my contact information or keeping in touch, though? Okay, you're getting ready to leave. Your wife's going to come here in a few minutes. Yeah. Or I'm going to stop talking to you because I'm going to go talk to this person over here. Right. So, hey, I'd love to, you know, chat some more. Do you have a card? Can I get your card? Easy. No, sorry. I don't really exchange contact information with people I don't know. Oh, okay. Well, let me give you. Let me write down my number. I'll let me give you my number because you might be here again. We could certainly chit-chat some more. Yeah, I guess we live in this, like, multi-level marketing world where I just feel like if someone is coming up to me too nice, they're trying to sell me something. Okay, that's very true. Right. Yeah. Right. But you were talking to me quite a bit about your kids and your ages. Yeah, you can learn information, but, like, I don't know how you can actually get to the point of, like, let's keep in touch after this. And I think that is a struggle for a good point. I think, though, Dar, that most people would be willing to. Not you. You're a much more. Maybe I'm a little bit more guarded. You're absolutely more guarded because you've been around, you're in the public eye anyway, you know. Right. So you certainly are going to be more guarded. Generally, people aren't. It's quite interesting. On an airplane or an airport. Now, they may not exchange phone numbers right away. It's certainly not after only five minutes or 20 seconds. But generally, you can get information from people. And not that long of a time. It's a funny story, but I don't know if you ever heard this. There was this girl who was trying to get to this very successful guy that was a stockbroker. Okay. And she found out that his father was a yoga instructor. And she found out all kinds of information about the guy that she was trying to get to. He liked certain types of books. I think he was into tennis. And so she ended up going to this yoga class. She ended up taking this yoga class for a few days. And she was like, I'm going to go to this yoga class. For a few months. From the dad. With the dad. Just building a relationship with the dad. And then as a dad would be like, hey, what are you into? She would say all the interests from the son's LinkedIn interests, right? Just so the dad would click and say, oh my gosh, you have so much in common with my son. Anyways, eventually the dad goes, hey, you should actually meet my son. And she actually went on a date with him. They got into a relationship. Is this a true story? This is a true story. Oh my goodness. We actually retold it as a story on the internet. That is a perfect, that's exactly how it could work. And you know, I'm wondering, like, is that manipulation or is that just research? I don't know. It could be a little bit of both. But in the end, it worked out positively, right? Well, I don't know what their relationship status is today. I mean, you know, if I found out that I guess somebody had gone through that extent to like get to meet me, I don't know. I mean, it could come across as creepy and it could come across as like, wow, this person's actually like quite smart and tried really hard. I could see it both ways. Yeah, it could go both ways. It could go both ways. In our world, at the end of the day, we are going to recruit people if they want to be recruited. And that's critical. I mean, we don't use any kind of untoward means to get them to work for us. So, and that's kind of an important thing to note, too, that when I will, before I actually recruit that person, I'm going to know that they're going to say yes. Because we've developed a relationship mutually, that we have a lot of mutual trust there. I know they've got to ask me questions. I know they've got access. So, I know that they will say yes. Otherwise, what's the point? Listen to them. Listen to them. You know, if somebody has a concern, a worry, they're scared, uncertain about something, you listen to them, Dar. You listen to what they're saying. Do they want your advice? Perhaps. But more importantly, they want somebody to listen to them. And their life, generally, is going to be complicated. And if they're considering spying for you, who else can they talk to except you? Because you understand them. You understand their life. You understand what you're asking them to do. If they feel that they can listen to you and that you're really listening, which goes back to one of the characteristics that's critical in meeting people, getting to know people, getting people to spy for you, it's listening. So, you've found a person that you've now built rapport with, that you know has access to information. Yes. And at what point do you have that conversation? How does that conversation go? It's not going to be one conversation. I'm going to know that they're going to say yes. So, we've had a relationship. It's gone on for a number of months. I know their family. They've met my family. We trust each other. Oh, you actually have them meet your— Initially, right. Okay. This is called the developmental phase, where— Okay. That must be scary, like involving your children, your husband, or this person is not a threat. They're not an agent. We're not targeting it, right? They're certainly not a threat. But it's somebody that I want to possibly recruit. Yeah. Okay? So, that's how I've gotten to become friends with them. I've gotten them to trust me. They meet my family. I meet their family. I mean, that's—you know family is important. And if I get to know their children, their spouse, there's something that's really comforting in that. Yeah. And then, we do things together. We—now, during this relationship, perhaps I've asked them to provide— Yeah. Their analysis on something. Perhaps I've asked them for their thoughts, for some work that I've done. So, they're starting to give me some secrets. Maybe not hardcore secrets, but— I see. They're starting to give me some information. This is going to go on a little bit longer. I'm going to ask them for a little bit more. So, it's almost when they're willing to do those little things, then you can go another step, another step. Now, they're saying, "Hey, this is a relationship that they're getting maybe some remuneration out of, and I'm—I'm getting what I need. Okay, let's have a—let's talk this out. Let's work this out." Maybe it's a—from a professional standpoint, it's a nice quid pro quo. Now, as—this has gone on a little bit where they've realized that they're giving me things that I've asked for. Like they have sort of violated their— Absolutely. Maybe employee agreement or trust with their— Absolutely. Right. With their own government. Okay. So, they know they're kind of in hot water already, like— I'm going to make it sound like it's mutually beneficial, which it really is. I'm getting—I'm benefiting. They're benefiting. They're benefiting, and it's for the right reasons. Again, I'm not going to threaten anything. I'm not asking them to—I'm certainly—if they're not willing to do it, then it's not going to happen. So, over time, I've seen that they are willing to do it, and then it continues from there. And so, at some point— Okay. And do you have to get permission? Like, are you having conversation— My management, of course. —from your management? Absolutely. And how are you having conversations with your management? In our office. Is that—okay. So, in our office, we're—we're usually in an embassy, and that's—I'm glad you mentioned that because this is not, it's not just one person. person. It's not just me. The case officer doing this all on their own. We have a great, we'll come back to after every meeting and before every meeting, talk to our colleagues. We have our brainstorming sessions. We really have, it's great. So there's a thing called surveillance detection routes. There's ways to go from point A to point B. There are very clear cut ways to determine whether you're being followed by somebody on foot, whether you're being followed by somebody in a vehicle. And every single time that we go to any meeting, we watch for that. What are those clear ways? There's a lot of techniques. For example, when you're walking in a city, you do what we call a stair stepping. So as you're turning corners, you're going to determine if you're being followed. If you see the same person once, twice, three times, it's over time and distance. You see the same thing. You might have, there might be static surveillance or someone who's just sitting on a street corner, but then you see that same person maybe in a different way. And then you see that same person maybe in a different, wearing something different at another street corner. It's something that takes a lot of practice. We, from a vehicle standpoint, you might see the same vehicle two or three times. It's actually just twice is all we really need. The surveillance, presumably they're really good, right? They're good at their job. They're good at surveilling you. Well, I'm going along. I leave point A and I'm going to point B where I'm going to do my operation. And I've got a route that I've already determined that it's a route that I should be able to pick up surveillance. The way that I'm moving. Okay. Well, if I do anything that's unusual, like run a red light or almost run a yellow light or slow down, the people surveilling me are going to say that person wants to get. And you don't want them to know that you're on. You have to look completely normal for them so that they say, Oh, you're not doing anything. A good surveillance team. If they know that I'm CIA, for example, or they have, they assume, or they think that I'm doing something operational that I'm not doing, they're going to say, Oh, you're not doing anything. And they're going to be doing an operational act. They're going to be following me. So I am out doing these surveillance detection routes with no operational act involved. I just do the same thing every day. After a while, they're going to get bored and they're just going to pull back. And that's when I do my act. So it's a matter of lulling them into a boredom essentially so that they pull back and they don't watch me as much, or they just assume I'm out doing grocery shopping. Yeah. If we were being followed and we know we're being followed, then we call off the act, the operational act. If we don't have an operational act, if we're not trying to meet an agent, for example, we just carry on our business, right? It doesn't really matter. And then we go back to our office and we note, this is the surveillance we saw. This is where we saw it. And this is what the surveillance looked like. We keep a log of it all. You have identified a person. You've built trust with this person. You've even gotten some information from this person. Now, before you can make any sort of offer, now you're going to the embassy, you're meeting with your management, you're getting approval that, hey, this is why I think this person is a good candidate. Now you're ready to make some sort of a formal offer. What does that look like? I've been talking to my management all through this whole relationship. Maybe it's the six, seven, eight months that I've been meeting this person. And so all along, it's not just my management in the office, it's headquarters. Our headquarters is very involved in, is this person legitimate? Is this person trustworthy? Does this person really have the access that he or she needs? Yeah. She says they have. So we've determined all that. We've determined this is a great candidate. And by this time, the person wants more. The person wants to continue this relationship. And so I, it's not like, okay, this offer comes out of the blue. We say, okay, you know, I'd like to continue meeting you on a regular basis. For your safety, the meeting, the relationship has to become clandestine, which means we will no longer socialize. And they've, it's come to the point where they're okay with that. They're a little bit nervous now. They're giving me information that they probably shouldn't be giving me. Before you've even made some sort of. Right. It's gotten to that point. Okay. It's gotten. So you'll get so far to get information. I see. And will you say like, I have this information now, or like, how do you take it to that next step? Or you just have such a relationship already that it feels like a natural. It's very natural. It's a natural progression. And if it, if it wasn't at some point before that, if I got the sense that they weren't willing to give me things I've asked for, cause I've asked for a specific, I've asked specific questions. They've come back with specific answers. So they're the, let's just say something simple. Like they were the, they're the assistant to the, uh, foreign minister. That's huge. That's huge, right? Where's that foreign minister traveling? Oh, well, you know, why are they going to meet with that other government? What are they going to be talking about? Oh, you'll ask questions. Oh, very specific questions. That's what we want to know. That's the intelligence. What's the point of risking a meeting with this individual and risking their asking for, for details if it wasn't for something worthwhile? And what if that person says, well, why do you want to know? Is do you just like immediately pull back and realize your families are friends? Like you're so, oh, sure. This is we've, every time we meet for coffee every week or twice a week, we meet for lunch and we're talking about foreign policy. We're talking about issues that are going on with their country and my country. And it's all very natural. I see. It's all very natural. And then by the time that they're going to be recruited and I, I have it, I, you know, they sign on the dotted line. It's already been, they've already done, they've already crossed that line. And are you paying them in cash or okay. And whatever the local currency is. And at that point, do they understand that you were recruiting them the whole time and you're not who you say you are? Or they might say, oh, they might, but again, it's going to be mutually beneficial, right? They're not, if they don't want to talk to me about secrets, then they're not going to be recruited and we will agree to just kind of go our separate ways. And has anyone ever gotten to the point where they're just like, wait, you're telling me that your name is not Bethany. And like you're, are those even your children? Like this was all the game. Well, at some, at some, but again, it goes to, um, do they trust you? I mean, obviously they're not going to meet a fake family, right? They're going to meet your real family and they're going to trust you. It has to be fundamentally legitimately a really good relationship. What if they say no. Now, are you worried about, oh, your cover might be blown? No. So again, I know they're not going to say no. So you have a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Otherwise, why, why have you, have you gotten that far? I've gotten the sense before that they aren't going to be willing to do this. Then I pull out. Okay. We, we just see to the less we don't, I just don't all of a sudden, I'm not going to see you again. We see to the less it's not, you know, I'm busy and then I'm going to move out of the country anyway, eventually. So by the time we've got to this point, I know they're going to say yes. Oh, so when you're in that country, you know, that you're just there for a limited stay. A few years, usually. All our tours are usually two to three years. Okay. And so during this meeting is probably they're nervous, like they're right. What is that situation? So it's a very short meeting. Okay. We've, we've prearranged the time and the place. I have my agenda. The first thing I'm going to do, are they, did you encounter any concerns coming here to this meeting? Cause they've had to do a circuitous route. They may have had only a few minutes to leave their, their colleagues to come to the meeting. So do they feel that they're at risk? Were they followed? Because I've been, I've trained them to watch for their surveillance, to watch if they've had any surveillance. So how's their security? How much time do they have? And then get to the intelligence right away. It's not a social meeting. It's not a meeting where, you know, tell me, you know, I'm going to, there might be a few minutes of, you know, how's your spouse? How's your, you know, I know one of their kids maybe, you know, had a birthday, very brief. Okay. And then we get into the meeting. The meeting may only last 10 minutes, maybe 12 minutes. And how do you separate like that friendship from like this new relationship? Because I'm, right now it's about protecting them. Okay. They know that they can trust me to do, to, to keep them safe. And part of that is keeping these meetings short. I ensured them that they, that I've been careful getting to that meeting, that then they also, that I'm training them to do the right thing, to be, there and to make sure that they're not being followed to get there. Yeah. The scariest thing that I can recall, I have not luckily had any, uh, untoward issues happen. The one, again, I'm going to say it's because of preparation. And this is actually in my book, uh, a time that I was very nervous was when I was meeting an agent, an agent that had been with us for a couple of years. So it was a real solid, solid guy. We were meeting at night because of course covered darkness that always helps. And it was a car pickup meeting. So I was driving from point A to point B where I pick them up. We travel, you know, 10, 12 minutes, maybe less than that to a spot. And I would collect intelligence from him and then we reverse it. The issue was that the car I was in had diplomatic plates. And so obviously I would not pick an agent up in a diplomatic plated car. So I had to drive from point A to a spot where I had already cased it out. It wasn't like, oh, this looks like a good place to stop. This was all pre-planned. Stopped at this location that was, uh, kind of off the road a little bit, changed the plates. I took plates from that I had in underneath my, uh, the driver's seat that were local plates, got out of the car, took the diplomatic plates off, put the local plates on, got back in the car, went a little bit further, picked up my agent, had our meeting, and then did the meeting. The whole thing reversed. So what made me nervous about that was here I was in the dark behind my my car, removing license plates. It didn't, it wasn't normal. So for those few minutes or a few seconds, really, I was very, very vulnerable. If anybody happened to see it, I would, it would have been very hard to explain. Or if I got stopped and I had two sets of license plates, it would have been difficult. So those are the moments that the adrenaline is flowing that, you know, the hair on the back of the neck is up. But again, it was done for the safety of the agent. Everything's about precision. You have to be like in the exact moment. Yeah. I know as a parent, you know, I'm constantly worried about my children. And in this case, you know, you have five children and you have agents that you're also probably constantly worried about. How do you manage, you know, worrying about so many different people? The mom part was tough because, well, again, I'm sure a lot of moms and parents are like this, but, you know, I was always worried about not being there enough for my kids, you know, was I, because I was a working mom, but it was more than being a working mom. I was gone in the evenings. I was gone maybe parts of the day. I was missing events. Was I not there when they really needed me? Was I not, even when I was home, was I not paying attention to things they said? Or when we were traveling or just out on a weekend jaunt, was I too worried about looking at people around me and looking at who I might want to talk to and not paying attention to them? So I always had those concerns and those worries. I was maybe even questioning my life as a mom, you know, was I doing the right thing? When I was pregnant, for example, was I risking the baby's health because I was off doing this or doing that? So it's not anything that I ever got over. It was always something that was there. I think that's just part of the concern. And the frustrating, not frustrating, but the, well, frustrating part was that I was worried about my agents. Of course I was worried about my agents and their life because I had put, I was putting them at risk. I was putting them at risk. For what? Asking them to spy for me, essentially. Yes, they were agreeable to it, but nonetheless, I was worried about their lives and their families and their careers and worried that everything I did might put them even at a higher risk. So I think in all, it was just an enormous amount of pressure. However, I would never have given anything up. You know, I had these kids. I didn't have to know doing anything less. You had to do it full, like full throttle. Bring this back full circle. So after 27 years of being undercover, how do you finally tell your children what you do for a living? Well, so they knew when I retired and they learned, they were young, Dar. They were, they were all in middle school, high school, elementary school, and they were proud of me, sort of, but they were little kids. Walk me through that conversation though, like the first time of them knowing. So I was going into it. I was going to headquarters for my retirement party the next day and I was bringing my family. My husband, of course, was going to come and the kids. That's when I told them that I had worked for the CIA the whole time. I'm your child. How do you explain that? Like mom has been lying to you. Mom was actually not a diplomat. Mom was a CIA officer and they were, they thought it was neat, but they were not, they didn't have this reaction that was so, oh, wow, that's cool, mom. That's great. That's great. I think they just thought it was my job. It was my work. And it was when they were older and now certainly, but as they got older, they realized what that meant. CIA was a serious job. And I think back then when they were in middle school, elementary, my oldest thought it was a little bit more cool perhaps, but they didn't realize all it, all it meant. And they didn't know what I was doing all day long every day or when I was on my trips. They didn't know that I was on street corners meeting with agents and they didn't know what collecting and intelligence really meant. Now though, they do, they appreciate it far more. And do you regret, you know, being away from your children so much? No, there was, I, there was a time that I was gone for about four months when I was in Sarajevo and that was tough. My, I only had two kids at the time. They were young three and my youngest, my youngest at the time, he turned one when I was gone. And it was tough because I was not in a place where I could talk to them every day. Communication was very limited. It was a very kind of barren life. I was supporting the military. So we were not living in a luxurious situation. I asked myself then, well, what was I thinking? What was I doing? Why did I do this job? After, you know, a week or two of crying myself to sleep most nights, I realized, you know, I'm where I'm supposed to be. It was, it's important. My kids were being well taken care of by their dad, my husband. It was going to be okay. There were moments that had, that, that happened. And I remember, I remember, I remember, I remember, I remember, I remember, I remember, I remember, I remember. But again, it was feeling that what I was doing was important, not just fun. You don't just do it because it's fun. You do it because it's worthwhile and it's important that I was in the right place. I often thought, you know, this life I had with my kids traveling all over the world and the job I had, yes, I wasn't there all the time, but look at that life that they led and the opportunities they had. And I was there a job you have in the life. They're incredible. They're extraordinary opportunities and they will always have those. And so my, here's one thing that I, I often think is sad. My kids, if you ask them, where are you from? They can't answer you because they're not from anywhere. They've been moved around every few years. Is that a bad thing? Okay. It could be kind of sad, but the opportunities that my kids have had and where they've gone and how they've been, how we've coalesced as a family, because when we go from one place to the next, it's just us. We go to someplace. We don't know anybody. We don't, we don't have any friends. We don't know the neighbors, but we have each other. And then over a little bit of time, you know, they've everybody makes their friends. Oh, then we have to leave again. And so we start all over again, but we always have each other. So that's really something important. Yeah. It's all about perspective and it's about being together and what I love about, you know, what you're doing now. And I think what makes this interview so special is like very few people often get to hear the perspective. Of somebody who's worked in your profession and somebody who has been away from their children as much and has lived the life that you have. That's why I was so one of the many reasons I was so excited to meet you and, and have this conversation. So what is the purpose or your intention behind sharing your story? When I first was writing things down, just kind of writing memories down about where I was and what we did. It was for my kids. I wrote initially to have a five kids. In part, my father, my mother passed away when I was my twenties, so young. And my dad wrote a memoir about his life with my mom and it was unbelievable. And he had a bound, made four copies for myself and my three brothers. It was such a gift. I thought, you know, that that's really something I'll always have. My children will have my grant. So I want to do the same thing for my kids. So I'm writing it all down about the people we met, the places we went, and my feelings through it all, my feelings about when I left or what I was doing or my questions. So they would really understand that. And then as I started talking to some people about this, they said, you know, more than just your kids would be interested in that story because it's about being a mom and having this really unique job. So I decided to write it and publish it. And a lot of it, I prayed a lot about it too. And it really came out and then it just happened. And then even after that, I have this really nice book and people are reading it and people want to read it. Tell us about the book. What is it called? It's called Wife, Mother, Spy, An Extraordinary Life Filled With Ordinary Days. The more I think about that, it really says it all. My days were ordinary. I was taking care of kids. I was making dinners. I was helping them with homework. I was going to work, coming home from work. But it was extraordinary in that it allowed us to do amazing things as a family, to go amazing places. And allowed me to have this really useful, important job when I was at work. I wasn't just making widgets. I was actually doing something that was helping protect our country. And so having this amazing job and then this amazing family was the extraordinary part. That's amazing. And is the book out now? The book is out. It's on Amazon and Barnes & Noble. It's out for everybody to read. My whole story is out there. Okay. Amazing. And I thought it'd be fun. It's an end with how would you determine if I would be a good spy or not? Or what are your thoughts? Do you think I would be a good spy or not? So, Dar, not now because you're out in the public too much. And a good CIA, I mean, a spy is to recruit or an CIA officer? Oh, no. A spy to recruit. Oh, a spy to recruit. Well, I'd have to know, do you have access to information of interest? I might. Information that would help our country stay safe. That is something that I'm not certain of yet. It seems like you would be, you're more, you have more of a industry, corporate marketing kind of knowledge. Maybe not so, maybe you don't have the secrets that I'd be looking for. Yeah. Or I mean the personality traits. Personality wise, I think you might be. I think you're very, you're calm. You're methodical in how you speak. You've got great answers. You listen. Those are great characteristics. Amazing. Awesome. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. And this has been such a pleasure talking to you. Make sure everybody to go check out her bug. Thanks, Star, for the invitations. Mm-hmm, 2538. Make sure your ride is your ride. With PIN verification from Uber, one more way Uber is putting safety at every turn. Saying how you feel out loud is terrifying, but that's what Hinge's new free audiobook, No Ordinary Love, is all about. 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