Forever War (Trump's Version)

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Use in the code world that check out fastgrowingtrees.com code world. Now's the perfect time to plant. Let's grow together. Use world to save today offers valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply. Welcome back to Potsay of the World. I'm Tommy Vittorne. I'm Ben Rhodes. Man, Spain just kicked the crap. Out of France and the World Cup. I didn't see that coming. I thought France was pretty much going to kind of glide through. Zero wagon. Yes, so I'm not that I consider my soccer knowledge to be considerable, but I definitely don't know what I'm talking about. I've been watching it for about three weeks, so I'm surprised that I'm wrong. But also it doesn't matter anyway, because it's all rigged for Argentina. I believe that. I've come to believe that. It's crazy. When you look at all the replays and clips of bullshit calls, Argentina got outrageous. That Egypt game was kind of nuts. They disallow a goal they call it. For a foul like 90 yards away. It's all very peculiar to me, and even Norway, because I was deep on that bandwagon, and I felt like I had some validity on that bandwagon, because I was in Norway, which by the way was an awesome experience watching them win in a bar, but then watching tens of thousands of Norwegians walk. So Tommy, they walk to where the Royal Palace is, which is right in the center of Oslo. Okay. And they sit in formation and start rowing in middle of night until. We're going to do some rowing talk at the end of the show. Until the royal family comes out. So anyway, but Norway got kind of screwed too. They got totally screwed. I don't get the penalty that was called the disallow that goal. Yeah, the ball, like the whole thing. Just it's heartbreaking. I like Ireland Holland though. He looked like he wasn't taking it too hard. He was out at the clubs in Miami that night. Yeah, he had the stuffed record on the way. The stuffed record with a tequila bottle. He had a good ass time in America. I fully support that guy's moment. Everyone. He deserves it. Yeah. Well, I'm going to be sad to World Cup's over. I'd like genuinely and not sure what I'm going to do with all my time now. I feel like it already ended because I'm an underdog guy. And once you got to the semis, I was like looking around and I guess. I guess I'm rooting for England now. I thought like one underdog might win, but not a single one. Not a single one. I wanted that one team to get through. I guess I'm team England now, but it's not the same. I like to get behind whoever is coming out nowhere. Me too. Me too. Well, it's great to have you back in studio. We missed you. I know, in the flush. Thank you for holding it down. We had a look, you know what I'm saying? But it's. Many was great, but we missed you. We got a great show for you guys today. We're going to have to cover the resumption of the war between the US and Iran. Who could have seen this coming, then? Honestly, barely paused if we're being honest, who sort of was always the war. But when I talk about the Trump administration's confusing and conflicting statements about what's happening, and then tell you guys the backstory of how we got here, there's also some interesting new detail about this crazy Israeli plan to install former Iranian President Makhmoud Akbar Dijad as leader of Iran. I'll tell you about that. We're going to explain about how concerns about security on Air Force One have led to a massive attack on press freedom here in the United States. So that's wonderful. We're going to tell you about a story about a bridge to Canada and the price that we all pay because of government corruption. Then we're going to cover the latest from Venezuela. I have terrorists are using artificial intelligence because we need more upon these things on the show. We heard gifts at NATO, some World Cup talk at the end, and then Ben, you did our interview earlier today, who did you talk to? I talked to Congressman Rocana. People may or may not have seen the news that he was on a trip to the West Bank recently. A few days ago, he was threatened by a group of kind of violent, heavily armed Israeli settlers. The IDF came and instead of dispersing the settlers, a detained US Congressman for the first time in several decades in any country. So we talk about his trip, what happened, what he was trying to achieve there, what he saw there. The reaction to his visit from Prime Minister Netanyahu, but also he had Democrats criticizing him for just going to the West Bank. So we talked about that as well. I was watching him in Fox News yesterday and one of the questions was kind of like, how dare you not do basically the itinerary that the Israeli ambassador to the US recommended you do, like how dare you not meet with families of hostages from October 7th, which I'm not saying is like not something that's totally important and valid to do, but it's like we're letting a foreign ambassador dictate a Congressman's schedule while on a Kodel. What are we talking about? There's so many things that pissed me off about this, which we talk about a little bit. But the first is that even the Democrats, like Josh Gottheimer and the DNFI, the Democratic majority of Israel accused him of going on a publicity stunt. What is every single trip that APEC sponsors where you go and get photos of Netanyahu to issue? You visit some place that Iraq had landed at some point and so they're mad that he went to the West Bank instead of the the photo ops they like. And then they ignore the fact that the West Bank is not Israel. So why should the Israeli ambassador even be the host when you're visiting what is not recognized as Israel's territory? This is under an illegal military occupation. Right. The people kept saying like, well, it's a closed area under military occupation. It's like, yeah, that is the problem actually is sort of the structural challenges you're talking about. And also people are trying to argue, well, he wasn't really detained. He was just held up for 45 minutes by civilians with M4 rifles. Yeah. You guys all try. All you, you know, keyboard warriors out there. I'd like you to go somewhere, get harassed by heavily armed people and then have a foreign military come and not allow you to leave and tell me that you're not detained. I don't know what else that's called. Yeah. And look, I mean, I'm not like it seems like the idea basically was like, look, we're going to wait here until the police come. That's how we're going to resolve this. Fine. But like these random civilians, settlers with guns, held them up for like 45 minutes and it must have been incredibly scary. I'm just going to guess, too, that if let's say Josh Gottheimer, who I mentioned, was in that position, the idea might have been helpful, because they know who Rokhan is and they know the positions he's taken. Speaking of the West Bank, our friend, in front of the show, Jasper and Nathaniel is doing great covers of the West Bank. He's been there for about a month. Check out his sub-stack. It's infinitejaz.substack.com. He was once again basically like with a group of Palestinians who got roughed up and assaulted by a bunch of violent settlers. Jasper's a big dude. He was with Rowe on this trip. Yeah. So Rowe talked about, you know, some, because the other good thing is he talked about the actual Palestinian story that he got. So we didn't just talk about Rowe and he credited Jasper with him taking the trip. Yeah. And look, Jasper's a big dude. Like he's a big jack guy. And this crazy settler was like punching him and kicking him and it like took all of Jasper's restraint not to just beat the fucking breaks off this guy. It's weirdo. But check out his coverage. Infinitejaz is the sub-deck. All right, Ben. Let's talk about Iran. We're back at war. This conflict that was once billed as a three to four week excursion has now gone on for over four months. And Trump is openly saying that now that the ceasefire is over, did it could go on forever? He's calling us the guardian of the Hormuz straight. So we have a brand new forever war in the Middle East. I know you're excited. I can see you by your face. You're pumped about this one. The Guardians of the Galaxy is a little, you know, a little bigger, think bigger. Yeah, I think a little bigger. So check out this super cut before we talk about what happened of the statements that Trump and his team were making when the ceasefire deal was inked and now compared to now. I'm not looking for regime change, although this is regime change. The first regime is gone. The second regime is gone. And I think the third regime is more reasonable, but we'll find out. I got to know them and they're stone cold crazy people. The coolest thing about the progress we've made over the last few weeks is that you see people within the Iranian system, senior leadership, even IRGC officials say, you know what? We may have some animosity, we may have some mistrust, but we recognize the way that we've done business with the United States for 47 years as a mistake. Let's try something else. Look, memorandum of understanding when you're dealing with sleaze bags don't mean much. It's an international waterway. No country has allowed the charged tolls or fees on an international waterway. That's existing international law. I want to be reimbursed because we're protecting a very rich portion of the world with spending money. And so what we've done is we are going to be reimbursed for protection. So I put it out yesterday, I thought it was good. I was called by different people, different countries, kings and amirs, and all of the people that we all know, and we all love. We'd love to do it a different way. We'd love to invest in the United States with billions and billions of dollars. The Gulf states are going to invest a tremendous amount of money into the United States, and that was very satisfactory to me. I think it's actually much better. Before we get the backstory and the proximate causes that got us to this moment, any thoughts on the incoherent mess of statements we just saw there? I think that the lesson we have to take away, which I don't know why people still need to learn this in your 10 of the Trump decade, is that there's like a very thick layer of bullshit that overlays like what is actually happening, that like 80 to 90% of what they say is just complete and utter bullshit on any given day. About the success of the MOU or about the one day they're great and one day they're terrible. - The Iranian friends we made along the way. - Yeah, one day we're standing up with the principal that nobody can toll the thing, and the next day we're trying to toll the thing. The Iranians, it's cool. It's cool how much we're talking to them. - So awesome, how much we're talking to them. - But then they're fucking assholes. And this is the problem with a lot of conventional media that feels like obliged to run these, as if they're kind of credible argumentation for what the Trump approach is, when the reality has not really changed. The Iranians control the street of our moves. This war is a catastrophe. Trump has no answer on the nuclear questions where the stated purpose of the war. The regime has not changed. It's if anything just gotten more hard line. That's been the status quo ante here for months. And we go on this roller coaster ride of rhetoric that really means nothing. - Yeah, he talks so much and so often that he gets a pass for saying the exact opposite thing one day to the next and just this whole of the coherence, but it drives me crazy. And it's like, it's useful, I think, to watch it all cut together. - It's very useful, yeah. - Because you were reminded. So just in terms of how we kind of got to this moment where the war is ramping back up, it seems like there were kind of two things that are worth mentioning. The first was that the Israelis passed along intelligence to Trump that said Iran was trying to kill him. I guess he didn't like that. I wonder about the veracity of the intelligence. - I don't find out. I mean, there are always probably trying to be trying to kill him, but I don't know if there was some new thing. - I don't think so. - That led to the following truth social post. Quote, "1,000 missiles are locked and loaded and aimed at the Islamic Republic of Iran with thousands of more to immediately follow should the Iranian government act on its threat pronounced in many corners of the globe to assassinate or attempt to assassinate the sitting President of the United States, of America, in this case, me, so that was that. But more importantly, the US and Iran, as we've discussed, have been jockeying over who's going to control the strata or who's going forward." Or remember, before this war started, the strata of Hormuz was wide open and had been open for decades, even at times, of great conflict between the US and Iran. But now Iran is asserting control over the straight in preparation for charging tolls in perpetuity. And they've been trying to force ships to sail through a channel that is closest to the Iranian coastline. But the US has been providing support to ships that transit the strata of Hormuz in a channel closer to Oman. The Iranians didn't like that. They started firing at ships in the Omani channel. The US fired back. We had days of airstrikes on targets. And Iranians were firing missiles and drones at US military bases in the Gulf. And here we are. So Iran has points to this really sloppy language in the ceasefire memorandum of understanding to justify their actions and attempts to control the straight. Specifically, Ben, paragraph five of the MOU says, "Upon the signing of this MOU, the Islamic Republic of Iran will make arrangements using its best efforts for the safe passage of commercial vehicles." And then later it says, the Islamic Republic of Iran will conduct dialogue with the Sultanate of Oman to define the future administration and maritime services in the state of Hormuz. The US side obviously says the Iranians do not control the straight because that language, the Iranians say they do. I for one, I'm shocked to that JD Vance Donald Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner and golf buddy Steve Wycoff didn't draft iron clack and diplomatic language. So Ben, regardless, oil features are up like 10% already. The Wall Street Journal reported the resumption of fighting revived trading strategy that Wall Street traders are now calling the Nacho trade, which is an acronym for Not a Chance Hormuz Opens. Goldman Sachs put out a report about efforts to build new pipelines and ports that would allow oil to get around this trade Hormuz, but that's like a 2027, 2028 project. And in the near term, this is the new normal. It's bad, predictable, predicted, but back of war. Yes, I mean, to just take up a couple of those things on these assassination threats and intelligence, I do think that maybe there's some aspiration that people in the Iranian system have to take a shot at Trump someday, maybe. But do I think that Israel came across like a plot that the US intelligence community didn't uncover? And conveniently in the middle of the war that Israel would like to extend-- They foiled something that would be like foiled. Now I will say this. One reason that for most of human history, even when countries were at war with each other, even in like world wars, you did not have assassinations of leaders, is in part, people were concerned about the tit for tat. People might not remember, because it happened, what, four or five months ago, that the United States and Israel assassinated the leader of Iran. I mean, we may not like the Supreme Leader, but a lot of people in Iran do. And I just suggest that it doesn't justify anything. Quite the opposite. The point is that there should be a bright line around doing that. But if you assassinate-- it's not just cost them some money, the leader of the IRGC that Trump assassinated in his first term, like he participated and boasted about the assassination of the Supreme Leader of Iran. You're setting a precedent. And unfortunately, tragically, not just Trump, but any future US president is now in a different space. I mean, we've not talked enough about how extreme that was to just kill the leader of another country, even, again, even an odious leader from our judgment. I also, this loose, thousands of missiles, first of all, Iran is weathered both a lot of missiles and threats to destroy their civilizations. There's no new ideas in that. The true social post are so designed for American audiences and not Iranian ones. It's just so that Trump's lackeys, the dead enders on Fox News, are like, oh, we feel really tough. Because you would love to, yeah. Yeah, we're going to kill some Iranian civilians and maybe we'll kill some more schoolgirls with these weapons. And we'll blow up the missile launcher that we already blew up that they rebuilt already. This is not working militarily. And then the one thing I just say about the straight, the problem they have with this is Iran, look at a map. They're there. They're not going anywhere. So the only way you're actually going to open the straight in perpetuity is through a diplomatic deal with Iran. You can try to muscle as many tankers through for a few months or a few weeks. But Iran's not going anywhere. And they could, two months from now, mine the straight again. They've demonstrated that they can do it. And so the only way this ends in that straight opens in a predictable and open-ended way is for there to be a diplomatic agreement. Yeah, I think Trump and his dumb team thought that this was an economic deal, right? You always hear Jared Kushner be like, we think of diplomacy as a real estate deal. The Iranians did not. They had no, they just like Trump and Kushner and Wycoff, they had no understanding of the nationalism and the pride and like the rage they created. Among the RGC and Iranian leaders are bombing the shit out of them, right? And the fact that they didn't say their ability to get something done. So one thing I'm watching like last time, we saw Trump propose an escort mission like this. Mom had been saw him on the Saudi crown prince, basically shut it down by saying, you cannot fly through our airspace. I don't know if he's weighed in publicly this time, but I did see on Monday, the Saudis bombed a runway in Yemen in Houthi territory to prevent an IRGC plane that was carrying Houthi leaders from landing there. It was a delegation that was coming back from the Supreme Leader's funeral in Iran. They bombed the runway where they were trying to land. I think to prevent them from getting back, but also they said there was a bunch of guns on this plane who fucking knows. But it was just interesting to me, Ben, because the Saudis and the Houthis have had this unofficial truce in their war for about four years. And the nuclear option for Iran would be having the Houthis try to shut down, shipping traffic in the Red Sea. Boy, you want to see an economic calamity. There you go. So this is one to watch. This is the thing is this thing can continue to get worse. I mean, if we return to kind of a much larger scale war in Yemen and then the Houthis are trying to shut down traffic in the Red Sea and they're firing things at the Saudis and their efforts to paralyze the Gulf again, the longer this stays in this state of off and on war, the more risk you're accruing and the more you're perpetuating shortages of stuff not getting to the straight. There's no way out of the diplomacy. They want to believe that we're one runway bombed or one tough night of strikes on Iran from having them capitulate. - What Pete Hegseth's statement away from victory? - Yeah, yeah, exactly. One more press conference or true social. There's a reality and then there's what they're saying. And the reality is not much has changed since Iran weathered our assaults, closed this state and demonstrated the leverage that they have. - And just on the cost of this war, one thing worth noting, the Washington Post have this really good piece. over the weekend as deeply reported exposé over the impact of the war on the Gulf. The headline was "Survivors of Iranian attack that killed six U.S. troops, say generals ignored warnings." And it details the series of failures by Army leaders during the war that included moving soldiers from one place that had air defenses to a smaller one that did not. It was poorly -- this new place they moved them to was poorly defended, easily surveilled. It talked about decisions by military leaders, prematurely asked soldiers to leave bunkers before it was safe. And then even alleges that one of the Brigadier generals in charge of this unit didn't help rescue survivors after they'd been hit and went and hit in a bunker. So it's great reporting. It's worth your time that details the human cost to our service members who are hurt and killed in this conflict. Yeah. And it's a bit of a reminder, just to, you know, wade through the minefield of this discourse. But there's this kind of thing we do where we throw clear and we're like, "Well, obviously, the military did everything right. But Trump's an idiot." Right. I don't know that the military did everything right. That sounds like these guys are fine. And in fact, when I look at the results of this war, I don't know what they did other than blow up a bunch of stuff in Iran. They didn't secure the facilities. They're not telling us, again, for the under time, the truth about how badly the damage is. We don't know how badly these people are injured, who were hurt. We don't know -- we have no idea of like what this strategy is, you know, militarily with the Iranians. Now I'm sorry about that. This is not to impune everybody in the military. I'm talking about the people at the top, you know, who run scent comm and, you know, raisin cane. You know, why are we led to believe that a Pete Hegseth run military is maximally competent. I don't think it is. And I think we're seeing some evidence of that. By the way, the only thing that it would say to me in the category of like, "What do you no longer believe?" How many times does Trump told us that the Gulf is going to spend, you know, like Dr. Evelyn, Austin Powers, like, you know, ten trillion dollars, you know, does anybody believe something? So, this escort plan, having Navy ships escort all these other ships through the strata promos, it went from, we are going to charge some 20% per ship to now -- oh, actually, it's going to be paid for by Gulf countries making investment in the U.S., but he's already trotted all these Gulf leaders to Washington and have them announce that they're going to invest like, right, a trillion. Literally a trillion dollars. They said that. That's the thing that they said. Does do any Americans feel that money? Are you getting that money? Does that exist in the physical world? Only if you work it like in video. If you work it in the AI bubble, sure, you know, that's it. Pots of the world is brought to you by Sundays. Have you ever actually looked at the ingredient list on your dog's food? After the first ingredient, well, good luck. 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Squarespace provides everything you need to bring more of your dream to life, whether that means building a website or adding a professional email service. Don't wait to claim your name, invest in your dream domain today. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com/world to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain, that's squarespace.com/world. One of the things, so a few weeks back, we learned about this Israeli plan to install a former Iranian president, Makhmoud Akmiddinajad, as president after the conflict started. For those unfamiliar with Akmiddinajad, not a great guy, well-known for human rights abuses, stealing elections, boosting Iran's nuclear program and denying the Holocaust, so not the kind of person. Not the obvious choice for Israel in this case. The New York Times had a bunch of new details about the scheme and how they recruited him as an asset that just felt right up your alley, Ben. Israel used its ties with Viktor Orban and the Hungarian government to get a university in Budapest to invite Akmiddinajad. I love it to do a climate change conference because he's just a vig, because he cares. He cares. But obviously, this was covered to facilitate this clandestine meeting with the head up Assad. Israeli operatives also met with Akmiddinajad during a visit he made to Guatemala. We think they probably did for, again, a conference about the environment. Their plan to free Akmiddinajad was to bomb his compound, kill his guards, send Masad agents, and I think a pujo to pick him up and then take him to a safe house. But I think Akmiddinajad did not stay at this safe house, apparently. He did feel very safe. Quickly disillusioned by the rescue operation. And now he's under house arrest. Akmiddinajad is, he was last seen at the Supreme Leader's funeral, surrounded by a bunch of guards. It seemed like very much a decision to kind of show off what had happened to him. So Ben, I guess my takeaway was, look, say what you want about the Masad, like the Pager operation. I think you and I talked about the questionable morality of having thousands of Pagers blow up all across Lebanon and potentially kill kids and the people all around them. But it was a creative, technical endeavor, right. It was impressive in the sense that they were able to pull this off, make a fake Pager company, right? This seems like completely ham-handed and stupid and half-assed and like I have no sympathy for Akmiddinajad. But that boy is that guy fucked. Yeah, he's a bit like, are you 1984 guy? Like when Winston Smith gets released from, you know, the detention and he just knows he's got- He's dead, yeah. He's a bit of a dead man. So first of all, it is notable, the Budapest Stangle, because, you know, Orbán and Netanyahu's ties were super close. I wrote about this in my last, or second book, you know, Netanyahu's political consultants on this 2009 campaign. Lo and behold, they came, Orbán's political consultant on this 2010 campaign, interesting. And when Orbán, a people hired Blackube, same former Masega as a spy on me, to try to like do sting operations and, you know, project veritas, we're going to record, you know, source-linked people talking about how they don't like picked Orbán, where they leak it. Oh, they leaked it to the Jerusalem posts and then Orbán picked it up. The symbiotic nature of, not just Orbán, but kind of the European far right in Israel, is very notable. It's also very seemingly strange, because Orbán is also kind of an anti-Semite. But it just shows you that Netanyahu and a lot of his defenders don't care about anti-Semitism. So long as the people, you know, they can tell the anti-Semitic stuff they want to their far right base in their European politics, as long as they allow, you know, things like this to happen. Right. Then that's fine. People say it's kind of like what I was saying about, you know, Sentcom. There's this veneer of competence around the Masad. When what we have seen them being able to do is kill people. Like they, you know, they want to blow people up. They can find them and kill them. But their capacity to actually like build something. I mean, under what scenario was Okhmadi Jodg going to leave this safe house and assume power run? Right. Right. The question is with what army? Yeah. Apparently we're supposed to be this Kurdish operation, which also never- Think about how insane that is. Like what game of risk are these guys playing in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv that that a Kurdish army is going to come down from, you know, the North and meet up with Okhmadi Jodg and but storm the, you know, the parliament or something like, it's so nuts. And I just, I beg people, like we've, you and I have been in these rooms. Like, these people are not as all, I'm nip it at least. as you think they are. And if you need any proof of that, just look at the outcome of every dumb fucking war they start. Yeah. That's a great segue to this story about this intelligence that Israel passed along about the Iranian threat on Trump's life. So that intelligence that came from the Israelis along with Trump deciding to ramp back up the war against Iran while he was abroad in Turkey at NATO led to him to make a security decision, which was to fly back to the UK on his way to the US. On the old Air Force one, and not the new Qatari bribe version of Air Force one that he flew to Turkey. He Trump said we're sending it ahead so the troops can tour it in the base in the UK. He made up the bullshit. But the New York Times reported that the decision was made because the new plane is still lacking in security measures, especially missile defense systems. These reports reportedly outraged Trump. And then just two days later, a bunch of New York Times journalists were like home at night on a Friday night and they got surfed subpoenas from I assume FBI agents demanding that they testify in front of a grand jury on the next Wednesday in like what five days. So they were issued and these subpoenas were issued by FBI director Cash Patel. After he apparently spent eight hours working out of the White House on Friday focused on this briefing. You know, I assume, you know, Steven Miller and like the political staff. So on Monday, Hegseth also announced that the Pentagon and the DOJ have created a joint task force to identify and prosecute leakers. So Ben, I can look at this story and on some level kind of understand why you, look, this is a national security leak that I could imagine an administration being upset about. Now I would argue that I think the lack of defensive capabilities on the Qatari bribe Air Force one were pretty well known and also was widely discussed, widely discussed. Also widely discussed was what people assumed would be the time frame required to install those on this plane. It seems like they did a rush job and they just refurbished it to the tune of a couple hundred billion dollars for taxpayers like us to pay and then off we go, Trump was riding on the thing internationally. But in practice, like what this is is a massive attack on press freedom that skipped all the normal steps in a national security leak investigation and went straight to how do we intimidate and potentially prosecute these journalists. And that is a very new and real thing because I know there are people out there who will like, well, actually us and say, well, Obama had like eight espionage act leak investigations or whatever. But it's like normally what happens there is you use every other means possible to figure out who, you know, like broke the law. The Bush government employee broke the law in leaking the information. You'll go after the journalist. First of all, it's interesting to me that they made this decision. Somebody in the Secret Service and people that look at threat assessments, I've been in the Summer's conversations. We used to have pretty intense conversations that obviously involves a lot of intelligence gathering around say the President decided to fly to Afghanistan where you knew there was an active threat potentially to Air Force One. And someone approved this plane without the countermeasures flying to Turkey and then didn't approve it leaving Turkey. So something happened like some intel came in. Maybe it was bogus intel too. I don't know. But clearly there was a shift. Well, that shift is clearly going to get the attention of journalists. So it's no surprise that people noticed that the President chose to fly on a different plane. I do want to say something about the leak investigation point that you made because I think anybody that listens with any regularity this podcast knows how much you and I are willing to talk about wrestle with, reckon with things we thought should have done differently. This is wildly different in very important ways. If you have an open leak investigation because there's national security information that is made public. And the way these things normally go, as you said, is these investigations grind on for years. You and I got fucked by some of these investigations even though we did nothing wrong because they cast such a wide net. They talked to anybody and everybody that had access to that information before they even think about looking at journalists. It disappears from the White House. It's all in the DOJ back in the days when DOJ had independence and just like or US attorneys or US attorneys who sometimes like Rod Rosenstein was the US attorney investigated the leak investigation of the Stuxnet issue in the Obama years. I think I was a very conservative Republican who you were not like safe because you worked for the administration and DOJ was doing the investigation was exact opposite. If you can't say or if you're so intent on kind of virtue signaling or like settling some score you feel like you have with like Obama, did you can't see the difference between the president of the United States getting really mad about a story. And the same fucking day his FBI director cancelling his trip to see his girlfriend play a country concert in a parking lot somewhere and sitting up in like the situation. That's my favorite detail. I think the whole story say this. Sitting there for eight hours and then within like what 24, 48 hours you've got reporters getting like the thread and like that. That has not happened. And so like let's focus on the thing that matters here which is the president of the United States directing the FBI director to run an investigation out of the White House that immediately targets journalists, not the people that handle the classified information and the information about decision-maker and Air Force One is a total new Rubicon that was just crossed in this country. And it should scare people. It's it's it's fucking prudence behavior. It's incredibly chilling. Also there was a reporter that her name is escaping me at the Washington Post who had her devices searched not long back because of some leak investigation about a story I forgot what it was. But yeah, I mean it really does sound like there was direct coordination between the White House and cashmatell on this story. And then they literally summoned the guy to work out of the White House workspace to prepare this thing and turn it on fast. One to watch and very scary for these reporters. Ben, let's do a little corruption watch here. So this one I want to tell you a story about Canada, a corrupt billionaire, and a hockey legend named Gordy Howe. You ready? Yeah. So okay, there's a brand new six lane bridge spanning the Detroit River linking Detroit to Windsor Canada. It's been ready to go and you know have people going across it since June 9th. It's named after Gordy Howe, Canadian hockey legend who played most of his career at the Detroit Red Wings. I think he was a big fighter, no? Yeah, yeah. Gordy Howe. It's some of the old school pictures when they didn't at Helmets, too. It's fucking wild. These guys skinned around. No helmet. No helmet. Kazi. No helmet. Very few teeth. Very few teeth. Yeah, just very good player to help a player. Don't cross that guy. So the opening of this bridge was delayed for weeks because the US and Canada were wrestling over the financial term. So the back story and this thing is Detroit to Windsor, that border crossing is really important. Nearly one quarter of trade via truck go between the US and Canada moves through that Detroit area crossing. It's like hundreds of millions of dollars a day and around a hundred billion a year. For years, there have been only two options for getting across the Detroit River. There's a tunnel owned jointly by Detroit and Windsor. Then there's this privately owned bridge, the ambassador bridge. It's, yes, very weird that this bridge is owned by one family. And the bridge is especially important because trucks can't fit in the tunnel, so they all have to go over the bridge. And it's super shitty. And so as cross-border trade continued to grow, especially after NAFTA, the Canadians in particular were increasingly desperate to find some other means of getting stuff across the border. And they were fought to the nail by this billionaire troll family that owned the ambassador bridge. This got notorious Detroit slum lord named Maddie Maroon, who's also a major Republican donor. And so Maroon, he obviously didn't want competition for his bridge. He was willing to fight dirty to prevent it. Long, interesting story there that we won't go into. Finally, Canada offers to pay for the bridge itself at the cost of $4.7 billion and then recoup the cost via tolls, which seemed like a great deal, including to Trump in his first term. Then you fast forward to this year, Matthew Maroon, the son of the aforementioned and now dead Maddie Maroon, donated $1 billion to Trump's a Trump-aligned super PAC. Then he met with Commerce Secretary Howard Letnick a couple weeks later. And then hours after that meeting, Trump posted this insane screed on true social that you probably remember that included a claim that China was going to terminate all hockey being played in Canada. Do you remember this? I don't remember that. And get rid of the Stanley Cup I think. Oh, I do, but now I'm going to say that. And that one also said, quote, I will not allow the bridge to open until the United States is fully compensated for everything we've given them. And also importantly, Canada treats United States with the fairness and respect that we deserve. And we'll start negotiations immediately with all that we have given them. We should own perhaps at least one half of this asset, right? So that brings us to June. The opening ceremony, this bridge is canceled. Trump goes for one chance to shake Canada down on this bridge project that they paid for in full. Finally, they cut a deal that says Canada, the US will split the net proceeds of tolls with the US for 15 years. Meaning Canada will still get repaid because those costs will get recovered before any net profits. And then the US will have to approve increasing tolls by 10% or cutting tolls below comparable bridges, right? So they have this provision for their billionaire donor that just says this new bridge can't undercut the prices. He's charging without US approval. So Trump goes on social media, brags about this, but in Canada, it has become political fodder. So here's conservative leader, Pierre Paulier, followed by Mark Carney, who I just want to warn those who are watching not listening. He's wearing kind of an unfortunate cowboy look that you just have to get past. Let's watch. Canada paid for the entire $6.4 billion price tag. We even fund the infrastructure on the American side of the river, all with the understanding that we would collect 100% of the tolls until we recouped our money. Carney just agreed to give half the tolls to a Michigan economic development body that did not pay a dime to build the thing. This is our our grandmaster negotiator, Carney's approach of elbows up when he thinks the president is not looking and sucking up to his face is not working. - The word net does a lot of work in this. We are sharing after Canada has paid back. So we get the revenues, then the servicing of the cost of the bridge and paying the debt of the bridge and then what's left over, there's a split of that for 15 years. That's not gonna be a lot of net to split. So look, it's a good deal for Canada. - It's just an interesting story about how corruption has real world implications, economic implications for people in Detroit and Canada. I saw that all of the Senate candidates in Michigan have actually been making content about this issue and trying to highlight it and make a part of their campaign. We'll see if they're successful. But hopefully our guy had a duel on saying it. - A duel has made a great video on it. So it's an interesting story, something to watch, and just the latest kind of little sprinkling corruption that we've learned about. God knows what we have. - Again, for people not watching the YouTube, the cowboy look was a little weird. But Pierre, Paulia, like, why is he walking? - Yeah. - Like, I get when sometimes you're, I mean, why is he on the go for this video that he's doing? Like, it's just a little disorienting. Look, the one takeaway you have to have from this, 'cause it does matter a lot. The amount of trade that goes across these bridge crossings in places like Michigan and Canada is extraordinary. The main takeaway is, in this administration, if you point a camera at something and pause it, you find something like this. Like, if this is happening on this bridge, it's happening on how many trade deals, it's happening on how many export controls and chips getting sold around the world. Like, these guys are treating the entire United States in all of these ancillary pieces of commerce and trade. Like, a big fucking fruit to squeeze all the juice out of so they can get rich, so their donors can get rich, so they can get contributions to things. It's just a big shakedown operation. It's kind of how, by the way, it's how, like, certain, really corrupt countries in the world have run, where there's not a, like Russia. Like, there's not a bridge built in Russia that, you know, doesn't have to, like, some kickback for, you know, either Putin or some friend of his or some oligarch or some local official or whatever. Like, this is now what the United States is like. - Yeah, the story is just like, the reason the story was interesting is it's just like, one of countless stories like this, some we've heard of the majority we've been like. - No, that's the point. The majority we haven't heard of. And I also love the fact that, like, there's a similar cast that showed, like Howard Lottenick is always showing how things like this. - His kids are often there. - Yeah, his kids are there, Whitcoff, Kushner, like, there's just this kind of inner circle of grifters and corrupt, like, crooks, basically. Like, running the U.S. government, like a mafia family. And, you know, it's like a nice bridge you got there. Like, and how much can we squeeze out of this? - Yeah, I think what's amazing is how brazen it is. I mean, right before we started recording, a New York Times story posted with the headline, Trump paid $2 million by South Korean company facing trade and segregation. - Exactly. - It's just like, there's so many things. - Cut 'em a check. It was like, it was described as a non-refundable development fee in his financial disclosure report. He's not even trying to hide it. People will be writing about this corruption for like a hundred years. 'Cause we are just seeing, I mean, the expression holds. Like, this is a tip of an iceberg. Like, the amount of stuff happening. And why is there a trillion-dollar Pentagon budget? Up, oh, it's like 60%. Like, well, 'cause it's like a huge trough that they can, you know, that's the easiest money to get. - The Trump boys are investing in all of these companies that are connected. - Everything's being monetized by Trump. - Yeah. (upbeat music) - Podsave the world is brought to you by hymns. ED is more common than guys talk about. The good news. Getting real treatment is simple. And through hymns, it's 100% online. hymns connects you with licensed healthcare providers online, giving you simple access to legitimate ED treatment options from home. No awkward appointments, no pharmacy lines. Just complete a simple online intake and a provider will review your information to determine if treatment is right for you. If prescribed, your treatment ships directly to your door. 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Becoming a built member means earning points on every housing payment, no matter where you live. Built points can be redeemed for lots of stuff, flight totals, lift rides, Amazon.com purchases, future housing payments, and much more. If they really do have a ton of ways you can redeem the built points, there's fitness classes, like soul cycle or berries, they have Amazon.com purchases, lift rides, gift cards, it tons and tons of brands, there's student loan balances, you can write down. There's a million different ways to use your built points. And built to new AI neighborhood council here doesn't just answer questions, it executes tasks. From paying your rent and handling a lift to book and dinner reservations across 50,000 partners, it handles your to-do list while automatically applying your member benefits. Here's what you do. First, download the built app. Second, link any credit or debit card to the app so it purchases at your local spots, become even more rewarding. And third, ask the neighborhood council here to do the app pretty much anything, and it'll alert you about exclusive member benefits near your home. And for the homeowner's out there, built works for mortgages too. Your housing payment is one of your biggest monthly expenses, so why wouldn't you want to earn points on it? Download the built app and join the membership for where you live at joinbuilt.com/world. That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash world. Use our links so they know we sent you. (upbeat music) All right, we want to check in on Venezuela and update you guys on the latest in the earthquake recovery and also just like what is life like in a country that is being run from Washington by Marco Rubio literally. So the latest death toll is nearly 4,500 people have been killed and over 16,000 have been injured, but as many as 50,000 people could be missing still so that it's almost certainly a pretty drastic undercount. The Trump administration is pledged $300 million in aid. It's being funneled through organizations like the Red Cross and the UN to Damshane Bend that we don't have an entity and organization within the government that does disaster relief in aid in situations like this. - Wow. If someone could come up with an idea for how to do that, we would be glad Elon Musk could think of something. All the political ramifications are kind of playing out real time. There are countless agonizing stories about Venezuelans who are like, you know, interviewed by a reporter next to a pile of rubble. They were hoping the government would come and help them rescue their loved one. That loved one is no longer alive. They're hoping for help now for just like body recovery operations and President Delce Rodriguez, she did herself no favors by sporting a $1,300 ski jacket while out visiting with victims, so that didn't go for very well. And there's always like the times at a story that said, quote, you know, repression turns to rage after quakes in Venezuela. It's about people just like openly criticizing the government and losing their fear. So we'll see if this becomes a political problem. And then speaking of Trump and the times at a big story about how Marco Rubio, a Secretary of State Marco Rubio, it's literally running Venezuela from Washington. He's not visited the country since the Delta Force operation did oppose Maduro. But he decides how Venezuela's money is spent. What businesses can operate there? He's even vetting some of Delce Rodriguez's social media and media appearances. It's like that level of micromanagement, which is I think what all of us assumed was happening on some level, but to read the level of micromanagement in black and white was still kind of shocking to me. Yeah, but might take away from that. Story is to what end? Marco Rubio's ego is being satiated, but is life any better for Venezuela? Oh, no, I don't know. The government is repressive and corrupt. It's just now corrupt in a way that probably benefits some of Trump's cronies. Are Americans better off for this? Are you better off? Like, are the prices down at the pump? Because of some windfall of Venezuela and oil, no. And so I kind of don't like this. You know, wow, like we're running it with Marco's text chain. Well, running what? Like, can anyone detail? Give me a list of how things are better for Americans or Venezuelans because Marco Rubio is able to prove Delci Rodriguez's social media and media appearances. Has he freed everybody who's in jail for political crimes? Has he set an election date for like a free and fair in election Venezuela? Like, like, what are we getting for this? Other than the kind of ego of a late 19th century gunboat diplomacy colonial enterprise? It's just crazy that we have a, there's a vice-roy. I mean, Rubio is literally the vice-roy Venezuela and he's sitting in Washington. But they can't even articulate like what? Because Delci Rodriguez is a communist, you know, and a repressive one at that. And a corrupt figure. So they can't even explain to us whose interest this is in. The detailed I rest on is approving business deals because that problem. tells me that there's like Trump you know Florida cronies like people that hang around Marlago who want to like you know to build infrastructure in Venezuela and they're getting contracts and Marcos like suggesting Delcy approved. Right. It's it's it's it's no different than the Canadian bridge right. It's just a bribe. It's the same thing. It's an avenue for bribes. All right Ben switching gears here because there's not enough anxiety in your life already. We wanted to talk about how terrorists are using artificial intelligence. This comes via a research paper by the University of Cambridge titled God has helped us in Seoul AI. How the terrorist group Boko Haram uses frontier AI. So the New York Times got a first look at this paper. I wrote it up the papers now online. The paper itself includes interviews with 27 former Boko Haram soldiers and commanders who talk about using these LLMs like Claude and Chatchee PT and Grok. But what's interesting is they're using it to actually improve their tactics on the battlefield. It's not just like AI for propaganda recruitment stuff. It's like day-to-day operations. The report says specifically the group uses AI to plan attacks, design explosive devices, service and troubleshoot weapons and improve operations security. ISIS has provided AI training for Boko Haram. I guess both groups have dedicated AI units. A couple quotes that jumped out of me Ben from some of these Boko Haram members. Quote. We mostly use it three ways. The first one is to learn how to assemble and use guns and how to manufacture bombs. The second one is for surveillance and how to improve our surveillance strategies to monitor what is happening in our camps and also better understand our enemy and prepare attacks. The third one is to make plans like when we come up with new ideas on how to attack. We ask it for tactics on how to make it work in practice and to be successful. Another person said before the bomb explosion was not that big but then they studied it. AI told us what chemicals to put in that made the explosive heavier. So chilling stuff for what it's worth. This is describing activity from 2023 and 2024. All the spokespeople who are asked to respond to the time story got very defensive and they said well the models are more powerful now but it's all everything is so much safer. I don't know that I believe any of that. I guess we'll find out. Ben would you make of this kind of nightmare story and what it tells us? It is a nightmare story and it's eminently predictable in the sense that when you first had that quote unquote chat GPT moment when it was released for the first time like one of the very first things people started to talk about in kind of security circles is well wait a second why couldn't this develop the recipe for biological pathogens or got forbid dirty bombs or all the way down to the more tactical level just things like how do you create better explosives or how can we get better targeting for some extremist group or some dictatorial leader and this is what happens when you build technologies without developing the guard rails because you've convinced yourself that you're either in some race against the Chinese or you know you've got frontier companies that need to get as big an IPO as possible so they have to move as fast as possible without regulating or self-regulating because we are building a technology that I don't know how many people are asking for Tommy and not many people in my life are asking for it without regulating it without legislation without any international discussion about things like this and how you can guard against it and by the way in the reporting suggests that we're using you know American models but even if even if open AI and inthropic if chat GPT and clawed for instance have a better you know trigger to say I can't tell you about that like if you open source any bit of this these models the replica AI is you're going to be able to do the same thing right so in the same way that there's a dark web there's a dark internet so if you want to you know buy and sell arms or drugs or God forbid you know engage in human trafficking and pedophilia like people of a dark internet there will be a dark AI and we're just not even having conversations about regulating it all the conversations are about you know the the scale of investments and the IPO for you know the stock market yeah the stock market yeah and this is happening this is going to happen yeah I would the other day I just jumped on the phone with this guy name Hanza Chaudhary from the future of life institute this this organization they're like trying to raise awareness about technologies like AI or like nuclear weapons and just sort of steer us all away from the extreme risk towards you know behaviors that actually benefit humanity and I was just struck by how many different policy touchpoints they're trying to work on in DC there is like securing the AI tech the chips and then the models themselves because like you know you worry about China just stealing the model weights it's another way they can just you know leapfrog us there's like the sort of soft cyber abuse use cases which is like using AI to supercharge phishing and trying to get your password or financial scams or disinformation then there's like the major cyber operation which we saw with the mythos model the cloud model which is using it to find zero day exploits go after governments go after big companies then there's the integration of AI into military systems which raises huge questions about you know targeting for example right like you're hearing people say well with AI we can we can generate thousands of targets per day and no one's really asking the question like is there any moral version of war where you're bombing thousands of targets a day like is that yeah effective or targets equals good that's crazy there are all the debates on China that you just mentioned and then the scariest one to me Ben is the is the bio threats because AI hopefully will help us cure diseases and find new drugs and all these good things but like that same exact technology can make it easier for people to build dangerous biological pathogens and do it faster and maybe even make something novel like something that doesn't currently exist and like we will the the process for catching up to that kind of development is just going to be inherently always be slower than the process for developing this stuff yeah and and look to be clear just so we're not all negative at everything here I get it like there this this technology is going to be developed it's going to have some benefits you know I think curing disease is going to be very high up on that list I'd like to see what it can help do with clean energy and deal in climate change the the issue I have is like the manner in which you develop the technology we I don't think we've seen a technology if we take the people's words for it who are developing it a technology that exists transformative that is being developed entirely in private hands with no guard real no government involvement really whatsoever the proprietary information and all the tech companies far exceeds what governments you know about it no guardrails no regulatory framework around it no legislative regulatory framework around it no dialogue between the United States and China the two AI superpowers and and it's inevitably going to lead to all of these issues I mean just to I'll we can continue to talk about this because it's such an important issue and other shows I'll just pick up on one for instance if you're running one of these companies your interest is like beating your competitor because that's what capitalism is about I'll add one to your list like who who's vetting the employees do you know easy it would probably be for the Chinese or Russians to try to I won't name a company because I'm not trying to put a spot on but like you know we want to get somebody in the door and oh you know if you're working in national lab associated with the US nuclear weapons you know you get pretty vetted before you enter that facility are they vetting who they're hiring like like just all there's a million questions like this you know Nicole Pearl Roth who is spent like a decade of the New York Times working on cybersecurity digital espionage all this stuff has an entire series out right now about the North Koreans training people to be like expert coders and then getting them hired at major companies as IT employees so they have like godlike access to these systems exactly and apparently these companies are like well actually you know we don't want to fire this guy he's like a really good employee you know but they're they're just this pervasive problem and like they have no idea how how deep it goes yeah so I just it's indicative of there's many things like this right and and again I don't in some ways like the companies are doing what companies do in capitalism like the government to step in like I'm not I'm actually not even just picking on Sim Alman here other you know it's the US government and is not performing its function in regular to regulating a transform of technology because it's totally dysfunctional and corrupt yeah and and there's no international community we we in any normal times there would be UN convened summits with every country in the world like we be in like round 20 of them those negotiations if this happened 20 years ago yeah it's crazy if that's not and oh yeah we pick on open air sometimes and because Sam Alman is annoying mostly and because he seems so duplicitous but you know for everything you're worried about what they're doing like Grok is there a far more response and like well Mehta has been you know Mehta released back in you know not that long ago they were loved ones were like we're gonna release our model and that the Chinese pop up with you deep seek and you're like hey yeah like thank you for doing that so there's a lot of there's not there's not one villain to the story at the overall villain is just that we can't control ourselves we can't we we can't slow this thing down and put some rules around yeah all right but so the when we were in the Obama world in the Obama administration our track record was not perfect when it came to gifting foreign heads of state gifts so Obama gave British Prime Minister Gordon Brown. DVDs, ones that were formatted to play only in North America. Well, yeah. And Brown gave Obam a pen holder carved from timber from a Victorian era anti-slave ship. Yeah. So they gave it a little more thought on that. We gave the queen an iPod. So we tend to tread lightly on the subject. iPods are coming back, do you see this, by the way? No. There's a good Gen Z, like, you know, we're going in all-- Stay after your phone. Yeah, that's good. But even I was a little surprised when I read about Turkish president type, Erdogan's gift to all the other NATO leaders who came to the summit in Ankara. Check out this video. It's from Slovakia's president. He's opening up his gift from Erdogan. Let's watch. He's opening up a box there. And inside we see a huge gun with a note. And then I believe there are six bullets next to it. This is the more, I think, the official photo of the gun in ammo that was presented to the leaders at the NATO summit. It's quite beautiful. So this is a personally engraved vintage Turkish pistol. It's a 357 magnum with six live rounds. Because obviously you don't gift someone an empty gun. That's just rude. And so hilariously, though, Ben, this meant for a bunch of these European leaders, they had to figure out what to do with these things to avoid running a file of gun laws in their own countries. For example, Belgium's prime minister realized that he had transported a firearm across international lines after he'd landed back home and had to, like, hand it to the cops. Ursula von der Leyen, the European Commission President, said thanks. And then I think donated it to a military museum. Other leaders had to leave their guns at their embassies in Turkey with, like, plans to decommission them. According to the Guardian, Canada's Mark Karni, quote, took his revolver with him, but left the ammunition in Turkey. They did not explain why. So fun fact here, Turkey's now the third biggest exporter of small arms in the world to this bit of marketing from Erdogan. But what do you make of the gift here? Is there a subtle message? The inclusion of bullets is quite extraordinary to me, because you could actually take the gift and immediately shoot some. Yeah, you can kill somebody, yeah. So look, it's not the gift I'd go for. It doesn't scream peace or defense of alliance to me. But the inclusion of ammunition is wild to me. How quaint that there are countries with gun laws that you can bring in? And I will tell you what came into my mind, though, which, again, we're getting old enough that we keep revisiting things from the internet. But do you remember the Olympics, that Turkish guy, who looked like an aging middle-aged man, and he was in the shooting competition, and he was just holding out like a six-shooter, like sideways, totally. People Google that, Turkish gun Olympics. Did you see what I'm talking about? 'Cause it looks like that's kind of what Erdogan was gifting. Everyone else had like perfect form and was posing and like sniping targets. And this guy looked like he had like a heater in his mouth. He was just like popping off like side-style. Yeah, so it did bring that back to me. That's the good that I take away from this. But yeah, like it's just, the world doesn't feel, it's kind of not what you want happening at the NATO summit. You want like a Doves release or something. Yeah, everyone's an odd duck. All right, finally, the World Cup is almost over. Again, we talked about the Spain France game. On Wednesday, the day this comes out, England is gonna play Argentina rigged. You were in Norway for some of the games. So we talked about the Norway fans doing the Viking row. Folks might have seen this. They did it in stadiums. They did it on the street. They did it on escalators. They did all over the place. Ben, did you see the one fan who refused to join in? I did. I did. Okay, I consumed all the Norway kind of stuff. I love this guy. His name is Emil Honors Lappin. Here's how he explained himself in an interview with Sky News. Let's watch. This is Emil Honors Lappin. In the middle of a crowd of rowing fans, but he went viral for refusing to join in a little earlier. I asked him why? First of all, I just find it really stupid. That's the thing I thought when they came up with it that it was stupid of the Norway, and I didn't want to do it. And then it. Hope it's a lot of what the Iceland were doing. And it's factually wrong. They didn't row. They sailed over the Atlantic. I love these oars in the background. Like this guy's pro. He knows rowing. Yeah. I mean, I appreciate it. I always appreciate someone who's not going to just go with the crowd. And just say, can they say, you know? At the same time, like it was just kind of fun to pretend row. I mean, I think people seem like they have a good time. Norway fans were having a blast. Like, I'm not sure the historical accuracy was the point. Like, you know, they were just digging it. But, hey, man, you do you. And if you want to correct the record on how they got to Iceland, like, that's totally fine. I get it. Point taken. Point taken. Point taken. We got you. Last week, then, also, I talked with Medi about the controversy around Flow Balagin, one of the great American players. He got a red card. He was supposed to have to sit out the game against Belgium. And then Trump called the president. I wrote a sub stack about this. I know you did. And Medi actually called it out on the show. And then, Trump calls the head of FIFA. The problem is magically solved. Flow Balagin gets to play against Belgium. It doesn't matter. You know, for the results of the game, we got our asses kicked, so it didn't really matter. But it was pretty sketchy and pretty shady. Check out this in new detail on how it all went down. This is from Dan Patrick on the Dan Patrick show. When that decision was made to lift the automatic ban, which is an unprecedented action, it was done by one person and one person only from what I'm told. One Mohammed Al Kamali of the United Arab Emirates. The committee was neither informed nor consulted. The UAE is a top tier relation to the Trump family's business interest and government relationships. This was one person who made this decision. So when President Trump said he is the one that made this happen, he probably did. But my source said that this came from the chairman Mohammed Al Kamali of the United Arab Emirates. So the committee wasn't even told of this. The least surprising news ever. It's the least surprising thing that the United Arab Emirates might have somebody in the middle of a corruption scandal associated with both Donald Trump and international sports. Like what a shocker. You know, it's exactly, what is amazing about the Trump era is just how easy it is to predict how things went down. Because this is what I thought, I mean, again, anybody who knows, like, where is the corruption? It's the gulf. If Trump went something fixed there, who's he going to go through and sure enough, it's the Emirati chair of some fake committee for, you know, his sycophantic FIFA president friend. I will say Tommy, to do a little sports media criticism, good, by the way, good for Dan Patrick, because I, on my podcast, I had a lot of sports podcasts, so I'm not even going to call any of them out because it's not worth it. But like, I heard some people like actively running away from the importance of the story, you know, like, hey, like we, I mean, you know, you know, Trump did that thing, but like, we don't need to talk about that. I can't believe it wasn't that important. And, and I sense people being afraid of their audience, you know, I get you don't like to mix sports and politics, but fucking President United States, like clearly intervenes. I can tell you who was interested in that story. Every other sports fit soccer fan in the world, every human being alive, every human being on earth, following the world cup. And so we can't like pretend like, and by the way, like I'll be the smart, like the liberal that people get mad at, like, no, I don't think Trump did one good thing. Like he would have, if we had won, which I won, us to do, he would have fucked it up because everybody in the world would have been like, they cheated. And that's the only reason they won. Well, my takeaway was I didn't think it should be a red card. I thought it was a bad call. Oh, yeah. I, I, obviously what Trump did is sketchy, but honestly, like I was less grossed out by him because on some level, like, presidents advocate for their countries, FIFA is a disgusting, utterly corrupt, gotten to its core organization. And this will be something that is hung around their neck forever. And like, I think the, the pushback you hear is like, FIFA is so corrupt, you know, there's all the DOJ, there's the DOJ indictments from 2015 or the allegations of, you know, taking bribes to give various countries like Russia or Qatar, the, the world cup location, that it's almost like kind of washes over you because it's such a broken organization. But I actually think this was mediated, too. I think this is actually different because it impacted the play of the game during the cup. Not like who gets a sponsorship deal. Well, that's the thing. And, you know, we, like, you know, I mean, it may, it took me back to being a kid and learning about like the ways in which the Soviets used to fuck around with like the Olympic judges and stuff, you know, like, when you get into the, because I, do I think you should have gotten a red card? No. I also don't think, you know, I think Egypt got screwed. I think. Absolutely. I don't, I bitch about, I'm insane. People just go look at my Twitter feed, which the majority of my Twitter feed for the last six months has been complaining about calls against the nicks. And it got so out of hand that I actually went back and like deleted some, I was embarrassed to have someone like searching the volume by, so like I get it, like complaining about calls, bitching about calls. But like, I would like the integrity of sports to be settled on the field. And I feel bad, you know, for our guys, because they become villains internationally, and they didn't, I don't blame any of them, you know? Yeah, it sucked. And then, you know, Belgium rubbed it in our face by doing like the Trump dance every time they scored and stuff, which was pretty funny. We just looked bad, not a great outcome all around. All right. take a quick break. But when we come back, you're going to hear Ben's interview with Congressman Rokana about his time in the West Bank getting detained by settlers and all things that he observed while he was there. So stick around for that. Positive world is brought to you by Helix. I got a Helix mattress. I forgot the exact mattress model because who the hell remembers those things? I remember mine. It's a Don Lux and it's great. That's a beautiful model. Here's what I tell you about my bed. Don. It is so comfortable. New day. Every single person who ever comes to my house. Well, rest in the sleep on that bed. Says that's the best goddamn mattress I've ever slept on. Sun shining. I feel amazing. Take the Helix sleep quiz. They're going to match you with the perfect mattress based on your personal preferences and your sleep needs. They've over 20 mattress models. So you can find the perfect model for you. 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Okay, I'm very pleased to be joined by Congressman Roh Kanna from Silicon Valley, who serves an Armed Services Committee, the select committee on the strategic competition between the United States and China, and on the oversight and accountability committee. Roh, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me, Ben. Okay, so you know, you know, I've been in touch. You just got back from a trip to the West Bank that drew a lot of attention. I want to just start with your decision to visit the West Bank, where you were detained by Israeli settlers in the idea of which we'll get to. But, you know, my experience in politics is that most visits to that part of the world are basically, you know, an Israeli government kind of facilitated tour of what the Israeli government wants you to see, maybe occasionally you go to Ramallah in the West Bank and see the Palestinian Authority. What led you to make this decision to center your visit more on the West Bank and the conditions there than the more conventional type of an approach that most members of Congress take? Honestly, I was inspired by your insights and Jasper Nathaniel's insights and Jasper is a journalist on the ground who has done protective presence, which is protecting some of the Palestinian villages from settler violence. And you and him, and a young guy works when he came caske, he said, the only way you're going to really see this is if you have a tour on the West Bank you go there and you actually Palestinians lead it, go into Palestinian homes, go see Hebron from Palestinian eyes, go talk to Palestinian Americans. And so that's what I wanted to do. And it's interesting that what's really upset, if you look at some of these Israeli government statements, was really upset them is that I did not coordinate with them. Of course, we notified them that I was going notify the American embassy, but they're just not used to this idea that an American politician would dare go to the West Bank on a Palestinian lead tour and not make the obligatory stops in Israel. Yeah, no, and I think it bears saying because I've seen some of the criticism which we'll get to that the West Bank is not Israel. So you're visiting what is supposed to be under international law, Palestinian territory. But I do want to let's talk about the incident that you experienced while you were there. We've had Jasper and Nathaniel on two and obviously he's been very powerful in his journals and people should check him out, follow him on sub-stack. He's been recording a lot of these types of incidents that happened to you. Now, you are a sitting member of Congress. You had a video that you posted online this weekend in which armed Israeli settlers blocked your convoy, the IDF showed up and basically ended up detaining you instead of dispersing the settlers. What happened? Can you walk us through what your experience was? So this was the one part of the tour that actually was not Palestinian lead. It was led by Nadav of breaking the silence. And Nadav is a former IDF officer who believes that the occupation is unjust and started breaking the silence to help Israel and the occupation. And he's taken people there many times before. In fact, just four or five months ago, he took members of Congress there, Congressman Castin and Congresswoman Rosa Deloro. And so we went to Zoonata Village. This is a village that has been destroyed by Yanan Levy who is an extremist settler and as an outpost, which is illegal even under Israeli law. It's a settlement that even Israel recognizes is illegal. And Yanan Levy was caught on camera murdering Ottawa, Palestinian. And so they raised this village. And we were taking pictures of the elementary school that he had raised. Suddenly a two hoodlums in the around 21-22, one brandishing in M4. And I'm told, get in the van, get in the van. We all get in the van. And they have parked their car outside right in front of our van. So we can't leave. And our cursing at us, wiping our windows, videotaping us, and then the IDF comes 20, 30 minutes later. I say, okay, thank you. We're going to be free here to go. And the IDF actually says, no, we're on the side of the settlers. And we think you're in an illegal area. Now, even the IDF has acknowledged it wasn't an illegal area. But we have to wait 75 minutes. And finally, we get someone on the American embassy, a great career official, David Brownstein, who contacts the Israeli government and the police come. And we are let out. But if we were Palestinians, we would have 100% sure faced some violence. The fact that we were Americans, there were probably a little bit more careful. They said, we don't care. And they didn't care enough to let us go. And did anybody apologize to you for this? I thought what I came back to the Israeli government would do kind of what Netanyahu did, which is say, these are juvenile delinquents. And then maybe just say, I'm sorry this happened to Americans. It's not typical of what happens. This was not reflective on who we are. And we apologize to not just me, but they to other Americans and the New York Times' photojournalist and others who were in our delegation. But instead, they have basically said, well, I didn't coordinate the trip. They've said that it wasn't a detention because they we weren't held at gunpoint. Yeah, we weren't held at gunpoint. But having people brandish their guns and block the only road out of the Zoonata village, you could call a false imprisonment detention. You know, if one person said it's just like being delayed in traffic. I mean, so it's just mind-boggling how they have been describing the incident. Let's play the clip of Prime Minister Netanyahu and how he responded to this on Meet the Press when he was asked about what happened. You know, I want to play that and then get your reaction to the Prime Minister. In the West Bank in Judean Siberia, we've had thousands, thousands of attempted attacks and warnings against terrorist activities against innocent Israelis, families, mother with their children driving along the road. They're stopped by terrorists and they killed them. There is a vigilante effort not by the settler community. They're 99.9 percent, you know, a law-biting citizens. They work, they serve in the army and so on. There are 150 juvenile delinquents that are not part of that community. They come from the other parts of Israel and we are working to put them under the law. But I think if we put things in perspective, we should see that we have thousands of attacks. Israel, unlike our neighbors, is a democracy and a country of law and we act against those who break the law. So I'm going to lead a bit with a question here. But is the structural dynamic he describes, which is that this is like a hotbed of terrorism with a handful of juvenile delinquents? Is that a reality you experience? Not just in your detention, but in what you saw in general during your visit to the West Bank? Well, he's right that it's a hotbed of terrorism against the Palestinians. I mean, the people who are being terrorized are the Palestinians. Umel Care, the village, I was at a home of Salman. I remember it's all vividly in settlers rattling the windows of his home, throwing things at his home, his 18-year-old daughter saying, I can't study. I need to go somewhere else. And this happening night after night after night. And then they planted an Israeli flag over a Palestinian home. I was in one of the rich areas of Palestine where Palestinian Americans were living who had done very well here, worth millions of dollars here, having beautiful homes there. And they said to me, we are still treated as brown Palestinians with no standing. One father talked in tears about his 14-year-old who was killed by the IDF and how he still has the room unchanged in his house. In other, uh, Jamun talked about how the settlers came and vandalized to his home, destroyed his car, beat a lady in the car, and no justice. Went to a school where there was a school shooting. And I saw the blood of 14 year old who had died. Now we have school shootings in America. The difference is even though we don't agree on gun policy, we all agree 99% at least that the school shooter should be brought to justice. Here the principal was not consulted about the shooting. No one in the school was asked about the shooting. I said, "What happened to the school shooter?" Principal said, "I don't know." The IDF or the police never asked him. It is awful. You can't imagine it unless you experience it. The only people in the West Bank that I saw who were being terrorized were the Palestinians by these extreme settlers and by the IDF. - And I just wanna ask you, you know, you get detained like that as an American member of Congress, which, you know, I can't imagine happening just, you know, just about anywhere in the world at this point. But you also know that you go to work in a building where people vote regularly to either through direct financing and assistance or through military sales to arm this government where they're, you know, regularly resolutions expressing support for this Israeli government where, you know, this idea that they're a democracy, including a democracy, I guess, that, you know, governs people who have second-class citizenship if that and places like the West Bank or under military occupation. What is that like to recognize that you are, you know, at least briefly victimized by the impunity that the Congress where you work has kind of supported with this blank check of support? - I was ironic because I voted in the past for the aid that led to arguing my own detention. I mean, I, of course, voted against the aid after October 7th and voted against the $220 billion to let me out. But before that, I was a member of Congress who'd vote every year for the $3 billion aid. And now it's literally leading to the detention of Americans and to the detention of Palestinians, Palestinian Americans. But it's relevant now because this week we're gonna have a vote on the massive amendment to zero out the aid, which I support. And Greg Kassar is the chair of the Progressive Caucus actually talks about what happened to me and other Americans saying how can we vote for aid? And while I don't want to make this about me, I'm glad it's got an attention. I'm hoping that we'll actually get to show the Palestinian videos and that that's what's gonna become the topic of conversation. I will just say factually that someone pointed this out that the last time a member of Congress was overseas and either shot at or detained by people who had guns was in 1978 with Leo Ryan in the Jonestown massacre in Guyana. And so this is not a common occurrence. And you would think that Israel would be profoundly apologetic instead of hunkering down in their corner and trying to justify what happened. - Yeah, I wanna talk about the Democratic Party here too though, because not that surprising that you had certain Israeli and Republican voices in this country criticizing you, but I also saw the Democratic majority for Israel, the DMFI, which is kind of like a APAC light that spends a lot of money to under like pro-Israel Democrats come out and attack you and essentially call this like a publicity stunt. There wasn't, you know. I saw Josh Gottheimer, a colleague of yours in the Democratic Caucus of the House, you know, come out and say you went somewhere you shouldn't have. And at the same time, we see these primary results where, you know, there are a lot of reasons why we've seen five incumbents defeated in primaries, but, you know, a through line in all those is that the challengers to those incumbents took a different position on support for Israel. When you see those kinds of attacks from your colleagues in the Democratic Party, do you talk to those people privately, do you reach out to them? What is that like? - I haven't seen Josh. I know Josh. Well, we came into Congress together. We usually have a pretty good rapport. I was surprised by him. And I was surprised by Kathy Manning. We had a decent rapport. I would have just thought they would say, look, this violence shouldn't have happened. And we're glad Congress were kind of safe. We disagree with his views. We don't think that this was deliberate on Israel's part. It was a mess, but we understand settler violence is bad. But, you know, their attack on me is not just an attack on my policy positions on Israel. I've said genocide or the facts on the ground or apartheid. They want to discredit my character. They want to say he's a liar. He's just in this for publicity. He's just doing this to further his own ambitions. He has no credibility because they're threatened by the narrative. And they know as a Indian American of Hindu faith who's not Muslim, who was a supporter of Israel for many years in Congress, who represents Silicon Valley, who worked as a junior person for the Obama administration, that they can't just paint me as fringe. They can't just say, oh, this guy's out in left field. And so what they're trying to do is show that, yeah, this guy's not in the mainstream. He's not to be trusted to discredit my criticisms of Israel. And it's a very cynical strategy. But it's why members of Congress are reluctant to speak out. It's not just the impact money. It's the assault that you face in terms of your character and your values. Now, what we've seen, though, is politically, at least in some of these primaries being attacked by some of these folks, actually, is one of the biggest markers to the progressive base and young people that you're willing to fight. And it's almost a badge of honor. Yeah, what frustrated me is I can accept a policy differences. There was like a willful effort to discredit even the idea of visiting the West Bank. As if that's somehow, it's a publicity stunt to go to the West Bank, but not to go and get your picture taken with beaming and y'all or something. By the way, in Rubin, no one in order I think it is, but no one's like Rahm Emanuel, that's a publicity stunt to go to Tel Aviv and give a speech to run in 2028, right? Whereas he was explicitly giving a speech outlining his vision. No one's calling that a publicity stunt. But going to the West Bank is so foreign to these folks. How can you do it? And the reason they're attacking me is they don't want other people to do it. They want people to see the Palestinians and what's going on there. I, you know, this is clearly going to be a huge issue. It already is in this cycle. It's going to be in the presidential primary. I saw Hakeem Jeffries come out today in support of, you know, he would not support an anti-military assistance to Israel. So what do you make of that, having a leadership that feels so out of step with where most Democrats are? Yeah, I was disappointed and surprised. Obviously I'm going to support it. I'm a co-lead of that amendment with, with Massey. I will say I came at least, you know, he reached out to me and a day after the whole incident happened. It was very, very supportive. But I, I think that the party is not understanding where the base is and they're underestimating how important an issue this is. I'm not sure. Clearveldez, Bradlander, certainly Derralisa, Millott, Annelelia, or Adam Hamawi would have won their races if it weren't for this issue. Not saying they don't have other great attributes to them, but this was one of the biggest issues. And the reason it's become a big issue is people are saying, if you, if you can't be honest about what we're seeing with our own eyes and willing to take on this power structure, how can we trust you? So it's become a character test. Not just a question of the details of, are you for calling it a genocide or apartheid? Are you willing to take on power to fight for a more just world? And I think a lot of the, our political base is just out of touch about where the party is on this, where the, where the base of the party is. Yeah, no, I clearly it's, it's also a threshold test of whether you're willing to take on powerful interests like a pack or whether you're willing to say what's happening in the world. I do want to get into the politics of the policy because, you know, you were there looking at the West Bank and obviously experienced settler violence. You've talked about the need to, you know, ban military assistance. What about the settler issue in particular? What, what, what kind of policies do you think could be used to, to introduce some accountability for this violence and to try to create some leverage over what is seemingly an unaccountable situation in the West Bank of settlers feeling like they have impunity? Well, we, we should have sanctions on the banks. We should have sanctions on the construction companies. Sanctions on the government officials pushing this policy. Right now, as you know, they're subsidizing basically the settlement. So if you're Israeli and even if you don't have a sense of the greater Israel, you can get just cheaper land and free childcare and government assistance if you move to the settlements and there needs to be an end to that. But on a very immediate basis, a new administration should come in and say within a hundred days, here's the people we want to rest it. You know, on levy, there are a number of these other extreme settlers or terrorizing folks. Here are the outposts that we expect IDF to destroy within a hundred days. But not some kind of dialogue or peace plan. This is what the United States expects you to do because the Palestinians that I met, they first just need to stop being terrorized. They need to stop feeling that they could be subject any whim, any moment to the whims of a settler. And we have all this, I guess this is the thing that I saw on the ground. We have all these grandiose ideas of will it be a two-state solution or a Confederacy? Will it be, how do we get to peace and what do we do with Hamas? And right now a lot of these folks, they just want to live a normal life. And they see the United States is not having lifted a finger to make that possible. And what they want is to see some action to stop their harassment and threats on a daily basis. Well, the last thing I would ask you then is, is there something that a Palestinian that you met with said to you or that you saw in terms of their experience that stuck with you that you'd want to share with people about what life is like in the West Bank? Well, share two things. I mean, I will share walking down the street of Hebron where shop owners were pointing up top and saying here's where they throw the middle parts and the rotten vegetables. And then when we put a stronger barricade so that the settlers above ground level couldn't throw that at us, they started urinating on us and putting acid on us. And I just saw how dehumanizing, how utterly dehumanizing. And then the fathers, a couple of fathers I met, who's killed children were either detained or killed and felt totally powerless. They'd go to one of them whose son was detained in American citizen, so there was no trial. He was detained for 10 months. He went in looking like a normal healthy kid came out totally emaciated and scarred from Florida. But I'll tell you what struck me because they invited me into their homes. They were so warm. I was there in some parts with Jasper's Jewish American and Kam Kasky, a young Jewish American Parkland survivor. And they welcomed us. They gave us a moblub, this delicious dish and they hugged Kam and they hugged Jasper. And all they had for us was love and decency and warmth. And I said, no bitterness towards Jewish Americans. There was one time there was an Israeli Nadav with us, no bitterness towards Israeli. They just want peace. They want a better life. And that gave me hope because I was inspired by Kam and Jasper and the commitment. I mean Jasper's living pulling his body on the line every night as a Jewish American for protecting Palestinians, Kam is, you know, he's always pushing me saying, I'm not strong enough on the issue is anytime I equivocate in the slightest, he'll send me a long email, he's 25 years old. So they see the possibility of peace and the Palestinians, I believe, won't hold bitterness. They're not going to be resentful. There is a large population that would embrace that. And so that's what gave me hope that something better is possible. And I'm not wanting to romanticize the younger generation. But on this issue, they certainly have it much more right than past generations have. Well, that's a great note to end on. Rokana, thank you so much for the trip you took and for coming on to share some reflections on it. So we'll continue to watch what you're doing. People should follow what you're doing on social media and other spaces and we'll keep in touch. Thank you, Ben. Thank you for your work on this. Thanks again to Congressman Conner for joining the show. That's it for us this week. But we're going to have a bonus pod for you guys later in the week. Ben and I are going to go hang out with some blobby friends out and ask them a security conference. See if they'll let us in. I kind of think they might be trolling us. Yeah, I'm not sure about it. Yeah, exactly. It'll be fun. Yeah, no biggie. It's a lot. And it's nice to, yeah, who doesn't want to be in Colorado this year exactly. Let's say the world is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by a loan of Minkowski, Michael Goldsmith and Inisha Bonnergy. Our team includes Matt DeGroat, then Heffko, Jordan Cantor, Kenny Moffett, David Tolls and Ryan Young. Her staff is proudly unionized with the writers' guild of America East.