For Those on the Long Journey: A Recovery Story for ED Awareness Week

Join us as we redefine, reclaim and restore the true meaning of health. Let's dive into the tough conversations about mental health, nutrition, eating disorders, diet culture, and body image. This is Nourish Ending Power. This episode is brought to you by Hilltop Behavioral Health. Specializing in eating disorder treatment, Hilltop offers integrated therapy and nutrition care in one compassionate setting. Their expert team works with you to achieve recovery and avoid the need for higher levels of care. Visit www.hilltopbehavioralhealth.com because healing happens here. Hi everybody, welcome to this week's episode of the Nourish Ending Power podcast. We have a special guest with us today, Johanna Scolio. She is publishing a memoir that actually comes out today, the first day of eating disorders awareness week. It's entitled "When the Water Still Holds Me" letters through the tides of a long-term eating disorder. It is a lyrical personal memoir about living with a long-term eating disorder and finding a gentler path to healing written as a series of letters to people, parts of herself, and systems that shaped her life. It explores grief, harm reduction, recovery, and the quiet resilience of choosing compassion over perfection. She is also in the process of launching a non-profit, a Dragonfly Stream for individuals with long-term or recurring eating disorders focused on a harm reduction mind body spirit approach. Trigger warning, we will be discussing eating disorders, body image, and mental health. Listor discretion is advised. This show is not medical nutrition or mental health treatment and is not a replacement for meeting with the registered dietitian licensed mental health provider or any other medical provider. You can find resources for how to find a provider as well as crisis resources in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. I got emotional with your bio, so I'm really excited to see how I do during today's episode, but thank you so so much for being here. It's always like, I feel like it's always like an honor to have someone who's so that is so willing to be so vulnerable and like share their story with recovery. So we really do just thank you from like the bottom of our hearts for not only writing your book, but for it being able to, you know, come on our podcast and share it again. Well, I really appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. We would say, Jess and I are like the definition of opposites attract and she is the more emotional, like out of the two of us, but your memoir got me when I was reading at the other night and I am I'm not the most emotional person with like things that I read or watch, but I just thought it was so, so beautifully written and could tell that you put so much time and care into it. So just so grateful for the eating disorder community that this is coming out and people will be able to have access to it. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that feedback. It definitely was a project from the heart. A lot of time and energy went into it, but I'm so excited for it to launch and release and for hopefully, you know, individuals to maybe hear parts of their own story in it, you know, those that are on the long journey and then just for others to maybe just get a little bit of a glimpse into an illness and struggle that is often misunderstood. So misunderstood. And I like to, you know, with your whole book, how you have the pieces after each chapter for like reflection, because I feel like you're all of your chapters are very, very heartfelt. So to be able to have something that's not clinical or like textbook and it's right because if clients have something that's textbook, it's like, sure, let me do a reflection, but I feel like you give such specific and I mean, it is real life. But like things, I think clients can actually connect to. So the fact that they then have that reflection piece after each chapter to me, I think will actually be helpful for people more so than like a workbook. Yeah, and that was really my intention is within each chapter. I feel like there's themes that can resonate with those that whether you're on the long journey or you support someone who does or you just struggle with your own inner ties of life that I really wanted something that people could carry forward with them and whether that's, you know, right, when they read it, they reflect upon it and sit down and jot some things down or just think about it or it's something that's always there that they can come back to. Yeah, and vulnerability was such a big theme throughout the memoir and obviously it's incredibly vulnerable to share your story. So how did you reach the point where you felt ready to share your story so openly? Yeah, thanks for asking that. It was definitely a slow progression. If you had asked me 25 years ago, if I would one day write a book and pour everything into it, I would without hesitation have said no. I lived a lot of those early years in denial and then decades in shame and both of those kept me quite trapped on that silence, you know, they say you can just sort of strive in isolation and that was the truth and you know, I got bogged down by the shame and the shame of struggling and struggling for so long and it wasn't necessarily one thing that, you know, made me think, oh, I'm going to write this memoir and put it out into the world and be vulnerable. I think a few years ago when I started to shift my perspective on what recovery means to me, what healing means to me and it not fitting kind of some of the traditional definitions, recognizing the nuance and complexity and personalization of what the meaning of recovery is. I had left the classroom and I had decided to pursue a master's in clinical mental health counseling and at that time I was in a course called Addictions Counseling and we were talking one week about substance use and harm reduction and I was also trying to find my internship and came across a local program that's very much peer support focused again in the substance use, you know, a renavment mental health and I realized, you know, both of those things I thought why are these not more prevalent in in disorder care and something just sparked me and my husband came home from work that afternoon. This was just about a year ago and I said I'm pausing grad school. I may go back to it, I may not but I'm going to write a book and I'm going to launch a nonprofit and I'm going to do both for in disorder awareness week next year and I just kind of hit the ground running and, you know, I think being on the long journey, crossing paths with so many individuals, I think there's not really a voice for those on the long journey and I really wanted to, you know, share my story in the hope that others don't feel so isolated and aren't full of that shame and so the vulnerability came through the writing in a lot of ways. I had an amazing editor who continually encouraged me to dive deeper here, you know, what was happening in your body, what were your emotions and so I credit her to really making this memory of what it was. She really challenged me to, you know, unlock things that have been hidden for a long time or things that, you know, I wasn't thinking that I was going to share and yet there was a lot of power and a lot of healing for myself in writing this. It sounds very therapeutic within it and I like give credit just like you said to your editor because she sounded like she would like took the seat of a therapist for a hot second of like go deeper and like asking these questions so kudos to her but for you, you know, what made so a multi-part question that I'm going to try to stay streamlined because I have issues with them. But so like I'm just curious for you, what made you find your definition of recovery, right? Because Magi and I always find as clinicians that like parents and support systems always have these like specific expectations of recovery and like what it should look like and you know at one point in your memory, you said I am learning to let go of the shame around needing like a meal plan. So like secondary to that of like your definition with recovery, how are you also working towards like your path in accepting that as well? Yeah, great question. So with regard to definition of recovery, you know, for a long time I did have kind of that narrow view of what recovery should look like, whether it was something that I had internalized, something that I heard from loved ones over the years, providers over the years, my own reading of others work over the years and I did think of it as, you know, I kind of use in my book, standing on the short line so no even just sort of thoughts, no behaviors, no, you know, hard days, no struggle. And every time I couldn't, you know, dip my toes in the sand and find myself on the shore, it was this internal message constantly that I was failing, that I wasn't good enough, that I wasn't strong enough and it was really defeating to have that internal message for years, honestly for decades to just feel like, you know, I was weak that this was something, you know, that I was choosing, you know, I got those messages as well. And so it took really, again, it's not like one specific thing I think that shifted my perspective. I think eventually I realized that I needed to turn more compassion towards myself and I think some of that just came from, you know, wisdom and life and growing up. I started to redefine recovery for me and sometimes I like to use the word healing and kind of almost separating it from recovery, but to be personalized and to be values based, I'm a firm believer, I always, you know, really resonated with acceptance and commitment therapy and what my values are. I started years ago, a morning gratitude journal that turned into adding values and intention and kind of focus for the day and it's just a grounding way to start the day and I really just started to view recovery as something that I defined. And I think that for a lot of individuals and again, especially those on the long journey, but anyone where they are is, you know, we can get very trapped in kind of that one one size fits all in that narrow definition of what it means to be recovered and yet I think it's meaning of definition is different for every person and what brings you purpose in your day, joy in your day and it's not to say every day is perfect, but again, I think that, you know, again, it's dependent on each person, what recovery truly means. How would you because I'm thinking of like the role of a parent, right? And putting myself in like that parent shoes of, okay, well, this is my definition. So how would you like guide a parent if that's the right way of wording that to have their own self acceptance with what their child's recovery definition is to allow the kid to lead in that definition and not have the parents trying steam role that their different definition of recovery is where the client needs to go. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And that's a great question. It was kind of the second part when you were speaking to even to the meal plan. But I think in my chapter on harm reduction, I touch upon this quite a bit of again, kind of shifting what individuals think of when they think of recovery. And I think when you're supporting a loved one, sometimes it's allowing yourself to grieve what you thought your loved ones recovery was going to look like and to kind of let go of again, what what use and vision you had for that. And then stepping from that, recognizing and listening to the one that you're supporting, whether it's a child, a spouse, a friend, but being there to walk alongside them, rather than ahead of them and trying to lead them, creating that safe environment for them. But it is really slowing down and it's letting go of what you expect it to look like and accepting it for what it is. And I think a lot of it also is patience. I think a lot of times loved ones want it to be that quote unquote quick fix or you know, you just all of a sudden it should just be easier. And it's something to do with willpower. And I think recognizing that there has to be a lot of grace and empathy and patience and where your loved one is at the time, not saying that they're going to be there forever. You know, I talk a lot in my book about kind of the tides of, you know, the journey and the ebb and flow. And so recognizing that your support has to change as well. You have to be flexible and adaptable. But it's really that that's slowing down and meeting them where they are. I from my own experience, loved ones and providers that did that for me. It was a lot more effective than kind of that push per se. Now I see why you wrote them in more if that was so beautifully said. And I love that you use the word grieving, right? Because then I never not that clinician's always had the answers. But I never thought that the parents were grieving their own idea of what recovery is. And I feel like that's such like a light bulb moment. Because it is, right? It is it is a loss of this is what I'm expecting it to be. And maybe it is, maybe it won't, but I have to be okay with it not being there. And that is a loss. So that is a form of grieving. So I love that. Thanks for teaching me. I appreciate it. Thank you. It also makes me think too. There was a part of the memoir where you wrote a bit about these Friday pizza nights and like the progression of your experience eating pizza and then leading you to like a trip to Italy. And I always talk about as a dietician whether it's like with clients or with parents about like nutrition is like so much in this process about stepping stones. And I think again, it speaks to what we're talking about with like the different expectations of recovery that sometimes you know supports parents, whoever it might be, they may have different expectations than you know the pace that we are currently moving at. So I'm just curious kind of thinking with that example of like the progression you know that you experience with the pizza, what motivated you during those tough times and also for for supports as well like what was the impact of your family support at that time too? Yeah, it's such a wonderful question and I love how you honed in on the progression. I hadn't really thought of it that way because I speak early on about pizza nights and childhood was whether it was unlimited pizza after a soccer practice that we would all you know land on the local pizza joint as a team and just the laughter and the fun that we had or Friday nights as a family when we met at a local place with our cousins and we played for hours in arcade in the back and it really was a time where food had freedom and it was associated with ease and pleasure and connection and then as I got kind of into the throws of my aim disorder, you know I lost that connection in relationship with others and food within that when I talked about some different examples when you know the struggle was really hard and it was hard to eat a piece of pizza whether it was when I was in a season of denial and the person across from me didn't know the struggle and the thoughts that were going on in my mind and how you know compensate and punish myself for days after because of it you know the slice of pizza that kind of brought me to my knees at one point and really you know wanting me to just kind of disappear into the bottom of the ocean because of how hard this struggle was and so you know again kind of that progression when I started to again shift my perspective about what recovery meant for me what healing meant what I wanted my life to be at that time I had recently gotten married and that was a huge part in my recovery just you know my husband and how much of a rock and an anchor he has been in the support but we had planned a trip for kind of slash honey moon slash trip with the kids before they were heading off to college and I wanted to enjoy pizza and Italy I wanted that connection I wanted to you know be able to stop in at the cafe and sit around a table and talk about what we had seen that morning touring around and be present and be involved and I knew that you know going from 10 years of not eating pizza to then all of a sudden and throwing myself in cafe and Italy was not going to allow me to be successful and so it was probably almost six months to eight months before we started at home Friday night pizza night and it was a way for me to kind of practice in a safe space eating pizza you know and again every week it wasn't perfect some weeks were harder than other weeks some weeks it was I can only eat a slice tonight and I'm gonna nourish myself in other ways with things that feel doable other nights it was you know I can have enough pizza that meets the needs that I have but I think the biggest piece that made it successful is it wasn't always easy some of the thoughts were still there but it's I wasn't facing them alone and I had somebody sitting next to me to whether it was you know hold my hand distract me you know just recognize that this was hard but be present with me was a huge piece and so I think that's one of the biggest takeaways for a loved one again of not the pressure not the pushing not it looking a certain way but the progression and being present that's a big piece I think for loved ones is you know being present whether your loved one is sitting there with tear streaming down their face you can't fix that but you sitting next to them is a lot better than them facing it on their own absolutely 100% and then we got to Italy and I enjoyed some amazing Italian pizza and we don't do a we don't do pizza night quite as often anymore although we did just do it for Valentine's Day this last weekend so it was fun to do again I love that I love pizza in Italy it's best so good I know I know I just want to go back it's so beautiful I love okay so my question for you what kept you motivated like even on the nights when you were like I like where you were like I can't like I can just do a slice or I don't know if I can do this and just like you said and recovery isn't perfect right like we always say to clients like practice makes permanence nothing is perfect so if you can allow yourself to keep moving regardless of what it looked like how did you do that for yourself yeah so great question I think a lot of it had to do with wanting to override the fear fear had ruined my life for so long and it was I want to say easy to fall back into that but that's what I knew and so it got to a place where I didn't want fear to control the decisions I had around food and the way I was living my life the motivation also again going back to values it's something I really go back to often but wanting to be able to travel and experience travel and wanting to be able to you know be present at a dinner and engaged with my husband or friends or you know the kiddos around me and so that was motivating to me it's you know kind of always remembering what my why is in recovery and those are some of the key things and then also just for myself you know being able to I'm gonna say like proof to myself but you know it takes a lot of strength I always say to keep showing up every day and choosing to do the hard things and it can be exhausting mentally and physically exhausting but I want to show myself some of that kindness and love that I could do it and I could make it through and make it through a meal or whatever the situation might be but the motivation really goes back to the continual why why am I on this journey and what do I want moving forward because I know for a long time how much my e-dissorder stole from me and and so I want it to look different beautiful yeah and something we were curious to ask you more about too is you know sometimes people who like to use your words have been on the long journey struggle to believe that healing or recovery is possible and so what would you say to somebody who's listening who maybe feels like it's like quote unquote like too late for them to to find recovery or to find healing yeah I love this question especially because for a long time that's the message I told myself you know there was no hope I was never going to be quote unquote recovered and again it was very much others definitions or what I thought recovery looks like and so I think for those that have been on the long journey whether it's years or decades there's always hope but I would encourage individuals to define for themselves what recovery is I think we can get trapped in a box of what recovery is and we're not and when we're not you know meeting that expectation we can get really disappointed with ourselves frustrated and it can create kind of a cycle and I know for myself those were the seasons when I didn't think I was you know fitting that definition of recovery where there was a lot of inward anger and then you know then the cycle kind of of slipping into the indisorder behaviors from the thoughts really did keep me trapped and I would encourage individuals to maybe you know journal write out think about write it on their mirror but what does recovery healing I'd like to say mean to them and they might be surprised that they're farther along than they thought when they really sit back to think about what creates a meaningful values aligns life for them and I always go back to it doesn't mean that there's not struggling complexity I think all of us as humans whether we struggle with an indisorder or not we're all a work in progress we all have areas you know that we can continue to challenge ourselves on and it really comes back to starting every day with you know what am I going to do today that's going to allow me to live my life yeah and what point to or at a point in your memory in your memoir page 13 to be exact because I was I had Maggie Maggie and I were talking about this I was like I have a question and of course my questions are always so long winded because I am never concise about anything it's the Italian in me and she was like okay how are we going to condense this I was like max I handed to you I have no idea so that's why I like I want to reference the page but there was a point where you were recognizing that like it's not like there was a shift in your mindset that it wasn't the eating disorder that was your strength anymore it was your recovery right so like at what point did you recognize that the mindset shifted from strength in your eating disorder to strength is within your recovery yeah a great question glad that you kind of found that within within the memoir there and we're able to identify the page number but yeah I mean for a long time I feel like my eating disorder was my identity and I you know found a lot of strength in you know meeting all the rules and expectations that my eating disorder imposed on me and really adhering to that and it wasn't a single moment again I think it was small subtle things in recent years again one I think you know choosing a life of purpose and meaning was a big thing I think yeah meaning my husband working with a treatment provider my registered dietitian who I've worked with for almost a decade now and her perspective on again healing recovery what strength is I started to really use kind of the strength that had always been within me and direct it towards something positive and towards recovery and again that strength every day to wake up and to do the hard thing and so it was it was kind of small shifts over the years I had another provider who said to me you know there's a reason you're still here and that really stuck with me and it's something that I still think of often and you know I think you can think of it on the surface level for just what it is but underneath that is you know again what what is my purpose and to find strength within whether it's you know starting this nonprofit which I'm really you know passionate about pouring into my family friendships and what's important to me I love that you brought purpose up because I mean I love everything that you said but that last part really just stuck out to me because I feel like that's one of the things identity and purpose what keeps people in their eating disorder right because you do see yourself as this thing right because even if you know I work with clients and we go backwards and we're like okay who's the first person that you heard this phrase from right if they're narrative in their head is like I'm just not good enough because my body or I always have to lose weight whatever it might be they're like okay well that was from a doctor but then for so long it went from doctor to themselves so since like it all of a sudden transition to their own words they do then say well this is me so then it is hard to differentiate that and so then figuring out how to make that separation finding your purpose helps them because then you recognize that you're not just good enough in my air quotes for an eat like because of your eating disorder there's so much more for you and in you to provide to people and so like I love that you brought that up and that you also identified the different purposes that you hold right a good friend like all the different pieces there because I think people also like believe you can only have like one purpose and like a friendship or a significant other or a family member can't be a purpose for them or like an identity for them so I just thank you for them because I think that's really like so crucial for people to hear. Yeah the identity piece definitely I think for me a lot of it was the perfectionist you know in some ways perfectionism has served me well but in a lot of ways it kept me very trapped in the identity that I associated with my eating disorder because movement had to be perfect eating had to be perfect you know kind of how I moved through my day was very rigid because I had this vision of what perfection was and it bogged me down and so being able to recognize the imperfections and not being hard on myself was a big shift in my identity as well. Yeah absolutely. There was another part of your memoir that really stuck out to me and enver context so my dad coach high school basketball my old high school for many years and throughout that time I and I still do but I was volunteering through the high school and would attend a religious retreat a couple times a year and would like support the high school students and everything and so even though it was like a religious retreat in nature there was a lot of like therapeutic elements like came up with it and so him and I would have conversations about I'm like you know you have to give these students athletes grace like you don't know what they're going through everybody's going through hard things like we said you know and I'm like and people around us are so impactful to us right we don't realize especially at young ages so the part in the memoir where you wrote like some guidance for coaches absolutely loved that I was you know so floored when I saw that and then you know I know you included in some more for teachers as well so I'm just curious of like what encouraged you to include that in and then any you know additional advice that you would have for some of these people who are you know in these different roles yeah thank you so I'm going to preface it by saying you know I was an educator for 15 plus years before stepping away some of my fondest and greatest joys from a professional standpoint came from my time in the classroom also did a lot of coaching I've coached youth all the way through college athletes and so you know those were two areas where I wanted to bring attention to in the memoir and so I did you know have a whole chapter specific to them want to start by saying both teachers and coaches have such an incredible impact on youth it's such a sacred field and position it's also a unique position because oftentimes you know you spend so much time with students or your athletes sometimes more than you know the parent and so you really you get to see kind of all the different parts and you know I've had you know the opportunity to really when I was in a school kind of the part of the memoir where I identified teachers that wasn't from my experience like as a child and you know teachers that taught me but really my time in the classroom and just some of the observations I had and again so much respect for teachers they pour so much time energy love dedication into the profession and what they do and sometimes unintentionally not wanting to cause harm some of the messages whether they are within the classroom itself or just you know between co-workers in the hallway and be absorbed by the students around them and I observe that you know quite a bit my time in different schools over the years and so you know it's just some of the key takeaways I had was recognizing that you're a role model and you know my experiences with elementary but they're very literal they're very concrete tend to be and so you know what you model what you say they take to heart and I used one example of picking my kids up from a PE class and seeing them doing a relay race where they were bringing back food items and placing them under healthy and unhealthy categories and then a couple hours later listening to students you know flipping over and talking about the food in front of them and so again you know not an ill-intended activity but just what the students took from that really has a lasting impact and so you know to teachers it really was you know the language that you use providing an inclusive classroom allowing students to have you know opportunities to eat if they're hungry that was another thing is that you know I know schools are very scheduled but sometimes students are rushed through meals teachers make comments about you know you shouldn't have that in your lunch box and so just little things like that just being really aware of your role as an influencer in these children's lives and then kind of shifting from there to coaches you know I did have some examples of the messages I received as an athlete you know I was an athlete and that was a huge part of who I was as as a child and was so grateful for all the opportunities I had as an athlete but it also was very amissed and might even disorder that compulsive need to move and you know one example I had was a college coach popping his head in and calling me a gym rat when I was in college and didn't realize you know on the surface it looked like I was just dedicated and committed and not recognizing that that was really a compulsive behavior I was engaging in and so a lot of my messages that I shared to coaches very similar kind of to teachers I think the overarching theme is to know your athlete as a whole person not just as an academic student or just not as an athlete but who they are as a person asking questions being really aware again coaches you serve as role models as well so what you do what you say makes a huge difference again kind of that no pain no gain mindset I think can be really dangerous as well you know allowing rest days making sure your athletes are fueling all of those different pieces not ignoring red flags and it doesn't mean maybe as a coach or teacher you feel like you know you aren't equipped with you know how to start those conversations but not ignoring them so whether you use a school supports you know service or as a coach you know you reach out to their caregiver but I just think that again I kind of use teachers and coaches as a sam bar I mean they allow our youth to thrive and to grow and they have that strong foundation and yet it's a role that you know it's quite a privilege and there's a lot kind of within it that they can help students and athletes yeah thank you thank you for including that because I think yeah it's stuck out to me so much and I think that's something just overall about your memoir and I know you had kind of mentioned this earlier but that there's just so many different aspects where people can take things away whether they're seeing themselves within your journey at different parts or you know whether they're kind of connecting with well you know I do have influence when it comes to other people and I can take this you know guidance and and impact somebody else with that yeah that's my hope against not only for those that you know struggle it's for those that support them and those like you said that are in different different roles and I think you know sometimes this coaches and teachers you know your your job is so busy and there's so many different places you have up in the air but at the core again really being in tune with those that are in your care is so imperative yeah and I I don't think people always realize how impactful their words can be or like just like you're saying like that one gym activity or like that relay you might not realize what you're doing or like how someone's going to take that but that made me really sad to hear that like that was happening so like it is also just you know language and Maggie and I like I harp on language all the time and like Maggie and I always talking about it but it is important right because once again kids are sponges and so if you're not really paying attention to that and if you're not taking into consideration you know like how is this going to affect people you know it something with good intent can become very negative exactly and even when it's indirect like I said if you're not even directly talking to a student but you're having a conversation with the coworker about the diet you started last week I mean students are around and they hear those messages and then they start to question you know because they look up to you I mean students and athletes look up to their coaches and teachers and so it really is a role that is an honor to be in but just makes you have to be extra hyper aware of the language you use absolutely I wanted to ask you too because we're both clinicians who have been in the field for almost 10 years each and always open to learning and growing too and so I'm curious any advice you would have for clinicians working with clients today based on your experiences yeah thank you I've had the privilege of working with some incredibly gifted clinicians over the years and I say you know the privilege because I know for a lot of individuals who struggle you know getting care there's a lot of barriers to that and so I feel very fortunate that I've had the ability to work with providers and seasoned providers in even disorder spaces who you know have a lot of knowledge and a lot of experience I think some of my you know kind of what comes to mind when I think of you know things to consider one is kind of that continual growth so you know never to become stagnant but to continually learn whether that's listening to podcasts reading books doing research the field is always growing and expanding and so I think you know always learning is a huge piece of it I think my answer is going to be a little bit specific to kind of those on the long journey and supporting those on the long journey because again I feel like sometimes that's where some of that growth can happen for clinicians I think whether it's from their own schooling or just you know from their experience they kind of have one way maybe of supporting somebody and when you're supporting somebody on a long journey sometimes it looks very different and so what's been helpful for me with providers are those providers that include me that's a big piece you know I think for a long time I didn't feel like I could trust myself or had wisdom because it felt more like I was being talked to versus kind of included in conversations and so some more of that like collaborative approach with those you're working with some autonomy as well and so recognizing that you may have kind of a vision for what the next school should be or for what should be being worked on at this time or where you know this client should be but turning some of that over to what do you want to be working on right now what feels important to you are really questions that have been valuable to me the slowing down piece is another huge piece you know I've had fantastic providers who are willing to work at a slow pace and I think when you're on the long journey sometimes you know it feels like you're never going to get near this shore but it keeps you know it has kept me from being at the bottom of the ocean and so sometimes it's being able to slow down with somebody and recognize that you might have a goal and you you know with a client who maybe has not been struggling so long it might be a goal that you have for a couple weeks with somebody that's been on the long journey it might be a goal that you work on for months and being okay with that that's a big piece as well and then I feel like I always come back to kind of Karl Rogers and just that empathy that unconditional positive regard that genuineness and always holding hope I think that was a big piece along the way is the providers whether they outright said it or I just knew from their words and actions that they had endless hope not necessarily in you know whatever recovery might be but they had hoped in me as a person met more than I think they knew at that time so those are just some things that kind of initially come to mind thank you really helpful yeah thank you so much for that I know we have so many like questions to ask and I know that we're we're going to need you back I know we've already asked but we're going to need you back because we have more I would love it but one question I really wanted to make sure that we got in today's episode and I know I kind of like hijacked to start talking about your not profit and then I completely hijacked and started talking about other things about your memoir so I do want to circle back to that and I just wanted you know two things the dragonfly and I know like I'm a big believer in symbols so like for your nonprofit you know what inspired that name like is dragonfly like a symbol for you in any way and like what what made you go down that path a little deeper because I know you like kind of highlighted on that in the beginning but I wanted to hear more about it yeah so a dragonfly's dream so yes I also love symbolism hence why my whole book is full of that of horse and symbolism but the dragonfly really has you know kind of two meanings for me initially it has to do with my grants so my grandma was such a significant part of my life forever she was always present involved just an incredible person and so when she developed cancer and was kind of on a slow progression when I went to say goodbye to her kind of in her final weeks me and my siblings we kind of each got a time alone with her and she said to me you know she obviously had seen my struggle from the beginning I still was not in a great place at that time and you know she never outright spoke kind of the word eating disorder over all the years that just wasn't her nature even though I knew her support was always there but in that moment when I was saying goodbye to her she said to me you know I know you can overcome this Joanna you're strong enough I really hope you know my dream for you is that you find joy and love in this lifetime and you know that was the last conversation we had and then you know I'm gonna get emotional this is the one chapter a dragonfly dream to come to the end of the book and every time I read it I end up crying and you know in the months that followed I just caught dragonflies you know whether it was you know across the window of my car when I stepped outside when I was on a walk and I just happened to mention it to my sister one day and she said the same and it was always kind of when I wanted to pick up the phone to call my grams and so we both you know kind of associated her spirit of being the dragonfly and it made sense she loved being outdoors she loved gardening she was you know strong but yet graceful you know resilient so it made sense that that was what we associated with my grandma my sister actually she got married after my grandma had passed and she had a dragonfly that she woke into the bottom of her wedding dress and so when I decided to start a nonprofit I wanted to tie in the dragonfly symbol and then the other symbolism meeting that comes with it not personal but dragonflies really represent transformation and change they spend most their lives underwater kind of in darkness growing but in quiet ways unseen ways until they come towards the light come towards the surface and then kind of skim across the surface and so they represent that unseen quiet resilience and so it seemed fitting that not only did it honor my grandma but it also you know really was empowering of what I wanted the nonprofit to symbolize and represent of the strength within everybody and the light within everybody so kind of merged those two together to create the name dragonfly stream I love it my my grandma we see as a butterfly so and it was like oh I love that very similar where was like my aunt started seeing butterflies we start like my sister and I started seeing them and then it was like super Italian but like we all like one night my cousins my dad and her sisters like we all got together we started making zeppelies and one of them literally turned out looking like a butterfly like it had a little center like two like bigger parts on the sides and my sisters like oh my god this looks like a butterfly and like all the females started crying which like shocker and we were like why is everyone crying and then and it all came to us that like everyone has been seeing butterflies but no one talked about it yeah so like the that yeah that's why I started crying because I was like I understand it yeah it's yeah it's so proud of this is always nearby exactly 100% yeah I love that what would you say the kind of hope for the nonprofit is yeah I love that so initially so the vision and mission is to create a pure lead harbor so really pure lead not a replacement for clinical support but I think there is a lot of value in pure lead spaces so a pure lead harbor grounded in harm reduction kind of the key theme mind body spirit connection and kind of that pursuit of hope and freedom and so initially we're starting with support groups so one in person pure lead support group here in the rally area where I am and then hoping within you know what that kind of settle for a month or two and then starting a virtual support group as well so that we can reach more individuals very specific for adults who identify as being on the long journey you know I'm not putting like a timeframe on that I think you know everyone knows themself well enough but a space that is again often overlooked but really needed I've done a lot of support groups over the years and a lot of value within coming together but sometimes you know feeling like I was either the oldest one there or the one that had struggled the longest not being able to you know identify to a lot of the conversation so I wanted to create a space where people feel seen that have been on the long journey and so that's kind of the anchor right now of the nonprofit it being a little bit structured I think that's the teacher in me but I want it to be a space that integrates whether it's like a gentle stretch mindfulness at the beginning some you know creative aspects whether it's reflections on poetry or art and then kind of what you would expect in a typical support group of being able to come together but I want people to leave each week really feeling like they've had that hour of grounding and then something positive to take with them in the week ahead and then long-term my intention is to provide need-based scholarships for individuals again I feel like yeah you know I've had such a gift of being able to work with incredible providers and I wanted to give that back to those who may not have access and so being able to provide scholarships is another piece of the nonprofit and then really my long-term vision I'm not sure the timeframe on this would be to start peer-led harm reduction based day program so for you know myself who has done you know kind of traditional treatment numerous times again the gift in that but recognizing you know the kind of clinical one-size-fits-all approach to treatment didn't necessarily I want to say work but you know I was I want to create a space that just looks different and so that's long-term vision for the nonprofit as well well when all these really hit the ground running especially that virtual support group will let a girl know I'm sending I will I love that that's awesome yeah amazing yeah and so this episode is coming out on the day that your memoir is also being published which is so exciting like hopefully listeners can tell Jessica and I you know really loved it and found it to be so beautiful and well written so can you tell our listeners how they can get a copy can you tell us where we can connect with you and find you yeah wonderful so it's gonna be available on Amazon initially so that will be the main place so you can search for when the water still holds me and it will come up on Amazon and there is a paperback that releases on Monday and then the ebook releases on Tuesday and so both options there are available and then I have social media so you can find me Facebook and Instagram I have one for the nonprofit so a drag and fly stream kind of as a handle for both of those and then shimmering sea glass is what I use for the book and when you read the book you'll understand the sea glass metaphor but the shimmering sea glass is where you can find me on Instagram and Facebook as well and then I do have websites for both so a drag and fly stream.com for the nonprofit and then shimmeringcglass.com for the book and for you know kind of events and conferences awesome amazing thank you thank you so much for your time your insights and we will be posting and reposting all that information as well so listeners will be able to get connected with you too. Thank you thank you so much Jessica Maggie it really was a delight to be here today with both of you I appreciate your time and what you do with this podcast in this community. Oh my gosh you kidding me thank you for coming like you know Maggie and I you know we were so excited to start this but if it if it's not for you know individuals like you who actually say like yeah let me come on we wouldn't be able to do what we do so thank you for joining us today we really appreciate it yeah no it was a pleasure awesome and get ready for round two because we got more questions for you so come in there love it I'll be back ready. Well thank you everyone for tuning in today and go to amazon please go and purchase the book and we will catch you in the next one bye guys bye thank you so much for listening to this episode of nourish and empower podcasts we hope this episode helped you redefine reclaim and restore what health means to you. 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