Followship - A Conversation with Daniel Hamilton

*Music* *Groans* *Groans* *Laughs* You want answers? I think I'm entitled. You want answers? I want the truth! You can't handle the truth! *Music* Jerry, just remember. It's not a lie. If you believe it. *Music* You sit on a throne of lies. *Music* You're listening to the Texas Baptist Crucible Podcast. A podcast dedicated to speaking the truth in love, helping the abused, and giving a voice to people who were harmed in the independent fundamental Baptist movement. *Music* If you enjoy listening to the podcast today, be sure to like, follow, or subscribe, or whatever it is you do on whatever podcast app you found us on. Also, if you feel like it, leave us a rating and a review. If you find the stories you hear here, it's interesting or as fascinating as we do. Or if you're just interested in learning more about the church and ministry we're talking about, be sure to look for the book, the Texas Baptist Crucible, Tales from the Temple, available in paperback and Amazon Kindle and Amazon.com. I'm James Virgin. I lived it, and I'm the host of this podcast. *Music* *Music* Today on the Texas Baptist Crucible Podcast, I have Daniel Hamilton. Toward the end of last year, you might remember we had Anthony Hamilton on here. Well, Daniel is his brother, and he has a lot to say. He warned me going in that his was going to be a long recording, and he was right. But I think it was worth the time. There's a lot of wisdom and common sense in this episode. And a lot of corroborating witness to the spiritual abuse, which was normative at the Long-Jew Baptist Temple. Today, Daniel is going to take us from his early days, how he was born into that mess, and take us all the way through college and his working in an adult Sunday school class. And how he got out of bus ministry, which I was a little bit jealous of, looking back. Well, anyway, rather than tell you all about it ahead of time, let me just turn him loose. And then I'll come back after and maybe have a word or two more. Though probably not a lot more, since I did manage to get a word or two in edgewise during the recording, I enjoyed this conversation. So without further ado, here's Daniel. All right. I want to date with Daniel Hamilton. He's been gracious enough to come on. He's prepared his, what he wants to talk about, and he's already had his brother on Anthony. And I'm just glad to welcome him on today. Daniel, could you tell us for anybody who maybe didn't listen to Anthony's, anybody else who doesn't know how you got to the Long-Jew Baptist Temple, when, how, just start from the beginning? So dad started going to LBT late 70s, 78s, and I felt like that. He was talking to this lady that he was interested in at LBT. But she wasn't quite, that wasn't her type. But if that was, she had a friend, which happened to be my mom, that she felt would become more dad's type. Okay. And so he gave dad her number. And so dad just randomly calls this woman in Missouri. And my mom's number was unlisted. So she just randomly got this number from a total stranger. And it's a guy of all things. And so mom ended up answering the phone. And she's like, how did you get my number? And she ended calling her friend back to verify. And then once verified, my mom was like, don't do this again. Whatever mom and dad began talking and they began having a long distance relationship. They would write letters back and forth to each other late 80 or early 81. Mom came down to the long view. And she stayed with her friend. To me, dad, to go on date with dad to, I'm trying to get the lay of the land and everything. And she live in the environment. And like Anthony had mentioned, she grew up at first back to church in Hamid, Indiana. So she was already familiar with brother, a high list style of preaching and brother, a high list style of doing things. And so she found the LBT and kind of get that same format. She was like, OK, this is fine. It feels OK with it. My dad on the hand, he didn't really grow up in that kind of an environment. So all that stuff was really new to him. He was raised to be, you know, just a good, good old, simple country guy. No, he would help his dad run gas station. I want to go to much in my dad's history because it's, you know, it's here now, whatever. But he was, he had a decision at one point of his life to, his parents end up getting divorced. And so he had a decision, do I stay with my dad and truth taxes and help him on a gas station? And basically we're called to rest of my life. Or do I move my mom and killing California? You have a life of ease basically. And at the young age, he decided to stay with my, to stay with my dad. And he developed a work ethic just a work called that's, that's all he knew. Yes. Just a simple guy. That's what a little bit. When mom came down and they met and they dated, they didn't get married in September of 1981. Over a labor day weekend. And I kind of make this little side joke that my dad's been labelling, ever been labelling fall to every day. Since then, since then. His labours had only begun. I don't know what to tell you. But like Anthony had mentioned, they were the first couple that beat you one married. And that is a parallel that I'm going to go into a little later. I wasn't born until July 84. And so there was that period of them, kind of getting used to being a church on a daily basis. I was helping a church. Other one, I came along. My first impression and it's kind of a two-sided definition was being in prison. Being in the nursery, you know, they would, they have the back then. And they were on the side and it rolled up and it rolled down to keep the baby from falling out. That question. But it's also a sign of the times to come. Yes. And also for people who don't know, BG1, and Gray senior used to joke from the pulpit because he was big on putting your kid in the nursery. He would stop a service if a kid was acting up or crying or whatever. And he would pray in the middle of his sermon while ushers came and ushered you out. And so he was big on kitchen kid in the nursery. Every kid needs to be in jail. And that's what he called it. Being in the nursery. Every kid needs to be behind bars. So I'm just echoing what you were pointing out there that that's where you start. It'll be deep behind bars. I mean, and that's literally how it was going up. Because yeah, there's more easy state within the parameters. There's a little job house per se. And the parameters and you do what you're told to do. Then you're fine. But you ever did something that was outside of those parameters. You will put in solitary confinement. Yeah. Got older and you begin to realize that, hey, you know, why are we having to do this? Why are we having to do that? You need to go sit on the hallway and you do whatever you need to do. You need to go sit in the closet somewhere and be. You need to be in solitary confinement. You need to think about what's going on. And you can't function until you get back into. A little prison bubble that we want you to be in. I'm going up. That taught us how to work as a child. We like 18 minutes and several times. We didn't have to do that. We had to make decisions. You know, do we eat or do we pay type? And to those who don't understand the extent. extent. of piving offering that they expected, you would have an envelope that you would have to put a certain amount of money in as a pie. Then you had like every time it, Faith Farm is the LCA or LBA, others, and there's one of the books that I forgot. But not only do you, and you're supposed to give your pie, but you're also supposed to be giving everything in every single other box that you'd buy, maybe start off, you know, which is actually a lot of money back then. But then at the end of the day, you'll $100, I was saying changes to $1,500, $1,500, which is again, that's a lot of money back then. And so they just didn't stop because they wanted money, and any and every avenue they could get it. So my parents had to make decisions, and you would think that what the church had that much emphasis on giving, that they would be open to have a food pantry, that would be up those members to help supplement them. Now it was you'd have faith in God. Well, I'm sorry, but going up, there were many times that we paid our light bill, and we still went with our power for a fan of five, our budget would be maybe $200 of groceries, on 25 of that, you know, went to Tylan Offens. So you would take up, I've $75, it's been our groceries for a family of five, two weeks. I'm just getting example on numbers. You would think that a church that was that much would want to help, you know, fill in a little bit, and would have a food pantry that would help out people. Yeah. When when BG1 was there at the beginning, he didn't. I think later on, he did have a food pantry, but honestly, it was basically hangers and stuff that was left over from people that didn't want it. Like, okay, it was time to clean out the pantry, and it would be the left over stuff that nobody wanted. And how many beats, cabbage, being a listen, how many is from Satan? I'll just put that out there right now. The devil was in that pantry. Well, going up, Bill Bauer had mentioned about, um, though, the, the discipline system about having three checks, and you would get a swatch at the end of the week into the week. I was kind of a person's best friend. Okay. It wasn't because I was good either. I saw him a lot. Oh, I hear you. I got honest a lot. For whatever reason, it was like a game to me. On Monday, if I got to say plus, then I knew I could act upon Tuesday. I could get a check, but then, you know, I could go maybe Wednesday, I get a little check, and but then Thursday Friday, and you had to get checked pluses, both days, and then I'd be okay. You would think after a while of getting in trouble, and get in spainte, and by the way, when you got spanked at school, you got it twice as hard at home. Yeah. And so I don't know what my mindset was to where I played it like as a game, because it wasn't really a game. I got in trouble a lot. I struggled a little bit in school. I looked about, I have a, my mom had gotten us while those school books that collected different memories of each grade. That I would call it in each grade, but I look back at my grades and I'm like, dude, what were you thinking? Can you stop fooling around? Stop being in the knucklehead. Yeah. Good grades. You know, just do what you're supposed to do, but whatever reason I don't know. The teacher that stands out to me the most is actually a teacher that has been mentioned a lot. I mean, I was Miss Rainey. Miss Rainey was that teacher? Didn't know you were size. I mean, you could be a 7 foot, 350 pound jacked jacked up muscles, everything, and she could still verbally knock you down the size with the ball. She just had that holy spirit power about her in that sweet calm, but demanding voice that you're not getting out of it. You just listen. Yeah. You're, there's nothing you can do to get out of that. But that was kind of like elementary for me. You don't really know what's going on. You have no idea what's going on. You just concentrate on your schoolwork and just do what you're supposed to do. But when I got into seventh grade, I think besides the fact of struggling with lockers and lock of combinations and stuff, you kind of go to Scott to see like, hey, what's what's really going on? Will the bill Nelson had a huge impact on me because while other teachers would give me the merits for being late to class, because I struggled with dealing with the lock of combination, he wouldn't give me the merits, but he would show me how to do it every single time. He took time out of his day as a teacher to show me how you eat. And those lock of combinations was like quick tonight to me. I just didn't get it. Yeah. I mean, some people get it on the thigh. Not me. I still have problems with them. So here's what I remember about Bill Nelson because he showed up as a student right toward the end of my time there. So he wouldn't have graduated until later and then become an LCA student or teacher later. What I remember about him though that he is that he was a genuine good guy. There was that there was anything mean about him. This kindness. Yes, the epitome of kindness. He may hog different. He may do. May have done things differently, but yeah, absolutely. A lot of things just hindsight 2020 and I know I get that. But if the church really did care about its people and really did care about anybody, this is my opinion. You want to run buses, run human buses, treat your people right. Amen. They came from they came from St. Port. So you know early Sunday morning, they leave 2, 33 o'clock in the morning, Sunday morning, to go pick up people in St. Port to come take them back to Longview. And then they'll go off the beach on this school. They would have to stay all day for the Sunday morning and Sunday night service. Then they would go home. That means those guys who were driving those those ladies and those guys who were on the bus. They're not coming back to Longview till like 24 hours later. With little to no sleep and then you expect guys to drive a bus and even a smaller vehicle and you expect nothing to happen. Seriously, what's wrong with what's wrong with them going to the Sunday morning service, going to be Sunday school and then going back to St. Port. So they can get back at a decent time to become home and go to sleep. What's so long about that? So I can I can bear witness to what you're saying. There were not just once, but multiple times. In fact, probably dozens of times when I was forced to drive a bus all day on a Sunday and I had worked. So here's my schedule. Go to work. Go to school. Friday morning, sleeping the afternoon. Go to work at 10 o'clock Friday night. Get off bus around all day. Maybe get three or four hour sleep. Go back to work Saturday night. Get off in time to run the bus all day Sunday. Drive the bus all day Sunday. And then the following, you know, the the Sunday night and these guys are coming home in a personal car. I know because I've heard of this talk about it. Like what 12, 1 in the morning. I mean, it was late. They had been driving all day long. They have they're they're all sleep deprived. Not just the driver. So of course, everybody else is asleep and in the driver, he goes to sleep and it's it's a it's a it's a tragedy. It should never have happened because they were placed in a position. Yep. Yeah. I see. I mean, I know it's easy. I started 20, but again, if you truly and honestly cared about your people, like they claimed that they did, then that should have been fixed. Amen. I'm gonna go back. I'm sorry. I missed a couple of stories. Was my I'll go back to listen. You can jump all around. Well, I had everything. Someone organized, but I forgot a couple things. When we were young, I learned Christmas time. Christmas was most of the time was a whole time the year for us. We just I had the mommy to have a Christmas project. You remember one time there were two ladies in the church that I mean, we were planning on not having any presents. My mom decorated the living room for Christmas. We had dad being our Santa dad. He had his Christmas outfit on and he wasn't really much of a fan of, but he played on anyway. Like, we were all planning for nothing, but dad still went through the Christmas story. Like, nothing will turn out just just like any other time. We're gonna go knock on the door. Again, we live on the south side of Longview at this point. And it's I think like eight or nine o'clock at night, something like that. You don't really answer your door that late at night on the south side. And just doing the fall. season when it's dark outside because you don't know who wants to be but there were two ladies and Chatton with the LBT. I want to say one of them was Miss Rainey. I'm not sure the other person. I think he was Miss self but I'm not I'm not 100% positive. That would make sense because they're sisters. Oh really okay well that's that's possible. Okay but they they can't buy and they drove in the vehicle knocked on the door and they brought in now just one but they brought in bags, trash bags, big gallon trash bags filled with pleasant wraps and not just for us but for mom and dad too. Yes and it was it was just one of those times where we got something that we knew what was going to happen. So there were good there were kind people there. Shout out Jason. Jason so. Yeah so there were good kind people there in the midst of all that nonsense. Another story so I'm Christmas time but this is something that happened to my dad. My dad worked for MetroCAD company back in the day. Okay he spent six a.m. shift. Kind of not a good shift to work. There would be times where he would finish his shift and he would find a knife in the passenger back seat because you don't know who you're picking up. You don't know what your mind that they're in. And so there were thousands there there was hundreds of times to I believe the Holy Spirit was riding along with him that was protecting him because you you picked up some people that are not really in the right mindset. But this one particular time that had finished his shift six o'clock in the morning he's cleaning his cab out. He's getting all his money. His bag of money and everything again turned in and he's getting the gears of the back seat and he finds a lot of money in the back seat. Now this is one of Christmas time. Again we're not going to have any money for Christmas you know something happened and we're just won't going to have it. And so I died being an honest person that he is. He takes out water money and he goes for his boss and there wasn't like five or 10 there was 20s and hundreds. It was a lot of money. And so he goes for his boss and he goes hey I found this water money. What did I do with it? Because it is Christmas season someone could have accidentally left this money in the car and I could be someone else money for Christmas for the kids. Yeah. And so his boss is like well you find it you you keep it and that it was like well you sure about and that was in his boss is okay fine. I hold on to it for a couple days. If nobody claims it you can have it. So he comes on and he tells us to story and we're like please do a Jesus don't let anyone claim it. I know. I'm a clear. Let him. We'll let him. We'll let him. We'll claim it like two days later that goes in the work and his boss goes he goes no be claimed it. So nice. We were able to have a good Christmas that year because God just dropped money in the back seat. But also my dad struggled. He was a hard worker but he was very fixated on what he thought was right and wrong. And there were times where something was said and he would go I don't agree with that. I don't like that. I'm going to quit my job. Well with a family that's not really a good thing to do. He kind of struggled with that a little bit and cost some little attention about that. But I'm saying not to say this my dad had found a job with pink or ten security and he loved it. I mean people with the work every night and he had his uniform that he would wear. It was like gray striped pants. I white putting up shirt that was found in press and he had a badge and he had all these things just to make him get I think he had a hat that he wore. So it really boosts his ego. He loved it. And things were going great. I mean we thought you know what this is going to be the job that dad stays with it. He loves it. He enjoys it. But then it came to a time that there was a promotion that came up and they were going to promote him to supervise him. But in order for him to take that promotion he had to take over a post as Charles Brewery on Con Street. Okay. That basically was producing alcohol or making alcohol make it beer. And so you know how that went over. Yes. I don't remember if he talked to I don't even know why. But for whatever reason he got advice from future or brother Bob, one of them. And he had asked him about if he should he take this position and they told him as I was no don't take that position. You will be getting paid for protecting beer and beer was bad. And he's like well I'm not really you know Charles Brewery is that really paying me. People tend to see me. It's indirectly. It's not a direct scenario. It's an indirect scenario. And plus you're providing for your family. And it came with a nice way. So he would be able to make give more money to the church. You know bad is that one to make his thing. It was made a made a real bit more money out of that. But for whatever reason, they had talked and did not talked him into not taking the position. And so he went to his boss the next day and said that he wanted to take the position. And his boss is like is he the take the position or quit or take take the position or you'll be demoted or something like that. So that pretty much ended that life there. Now I tell that story again because there's a parallel that was happened in my life later on. At my time, we'll see for one. But it's just that type of control. And it's crazy to me because they would have benefited. I mean, they would have had more, I mean, Dan wouldn't will make substantially a lot of money. But he would have been making it a little bit more money. They've been getting a little bit more money to the church. So they would have benefited. Yes. And I just want to say something right now for those who maybe don't know how things worked in OBT. It's amazing to me. I have a pastor. I've been a pastor for a lot of years. I've pastored been a pastor at two different churches. I can't imagine having the mentality that members need to come ask me about their job decisions. Like what? Why do they have to ask me? Like, you know, you're a grownup. Make your job decisions. But it was the structure there wasn't it. He felt like he needed to go in and ask the man of God before he made a decision like that. And let the man of God quote unquote, run his life that way. And so basically, yeah, you're just what you're bearing witness to is the fact that church members there handed their lives over to the pastor. So yeah, go ahead. I'm gonna get into the bus ministry later on. But I'm gonna give a little back take on the bed of my bus ministry. When I was four years old, we had a bus captain, don't really want to mention her name. That's not bad. But she started she wanted us to start riding the bus when we was like three years old. And my mom said no, not to your foreword. And that was riding the bus two church and riding the bus, bus home phone church. So once I turned four years old, I was basically involved in the riding on both being on a bus. So instead of your parents taking you to church, you rode the bus. Right. Was this for just just for numbers because you lived on that bus route? I have no had to be had to be had to be for numbers. Oh, um, and then and then six years old six or seven like five some months. I think it was I would ride with the bus captain and we would visit the bus route and then at the end of lunch time, we'd go to McDonald's and I'll get like a happy meal or something. But I mean, you look back and go well, that's a cool environment. And I got to see how other people were living and how good I had it. Even though we were poor, I actually got to see it in young age. How actually good I had it because I did have a mom and a dad. Yes, they struggled. And yes, they have did discussions and yes, they have their times to where mom and dad would go take a ride and have a conversation about something. But they still stayed together. They were on the bus on seeing families that they were divorced at the young age or appeared with the voice and now you got a steppan in the picture. The child doesn't agree with the steppan and they're just causing a different kind of conflict and a different kind of situation that child didn't really ask to be in. It could be a home where there's no father and no mother in the home and the grandma grandpa that was raising kids. You look back and like yeah I grew up poor but then when I started being involved in the bus ministry at six and I saw what poor was I actually had it pretty good. I was actually pretty blessed. Yeah but in my teenage years I started my let's see where I was at. Say 12, 13 something like that. We had a long morning business where we used Das Lamaura and he would take us to certain places that were certain longs that we had and we moved the old and we would have to pay seven dollars for the loose to use of Islam or and for the gas. You can't teach enough responsibility. Sure which means it's good but my first I'm a very first job. I was going for a hamburger factory and I was there before I did that I was I moved for the school all time as a janitor before a handle factory came along and I would move for the school to help pay my school bill. Now I wasn't the four time janitor but I just helped the janitor and how that went was I would help him from the time that I was let out of class my very last class would let me out to 30 to 45 something like that and I would help the janitor clean from three to four or five and we'd clean the entire school all the bathrooms cleaning the windows clean the toilets all that kind of stuff and throughout the day I would get a notification while I'm in class hey someone clogged the toilet at such a such bathroom we need you to come down and clean it well in order for me to pay I would come down the all come down the office right my time down on the sheet I would go see what the problem was and then I'd come back and tell the secretary of the lady hey I'm going to be here working on the 30 minutes 45 minutes whatever and so she would write that time down if it took any longer than that and she would go to the restroom or as that not going to door and see where I'm at and see why it's taken so long and so if it feels bigger than what I figured it would be then there would pay the janitor down and the janitor would see where I was at and be okay well it's this fellow but I would get this cleaned up but my hours that I was working a week maybe 12 15 hours a week you take that and then a wage back then $5 an hour whatever but whatever I was working it went towards my school and that begs the question because just like me working for the school when it's given us came around even though I did work part-time that paycheck that I work it still went to the church instead of your school bill yeah so how does that go into play and I asked that question I asked my person but I said a question at one time I was like look because I decided my check back to the church I'm like this $77 I'm making this week so you take that $77 a week times forward because you got paid once a week or however it was you know that's $300 some dollars three four hundred some dollars mark maybe so you take one week out I'm like a hundred bucks short on my school bill so if you're going to take that paycheck and you're going to put it towards the give it all who's going to cover that last hundred dollars that I'm short so just to be clear just or just so make make sure everybody is clear on this as a teenager working to pay your own school bill on give it all Sunday they would withhold your check for the church and then you had to make that up too that's that's incredible they were withholding you were basically worked to go to school and they would withhold that on give it all Sunday from you it's called slave labor yeah and I when I heard story um I believe it was for the math is about his pay not the getting paid off I'm sorry that's a sad yeah just three else two on the end I forgot about Justin I'm sure there was many many other people that would be able to say the exact same thing it was pretty much everybody yep that the next thing again we're going to go back to the church about caring about people if you truly care about people then you would do what you need to do to take care of your people that's right with me if they didn't really care about you it was a thought it was a facade that they put on that's all it was um but and team was teenager of course our Saturdays are so much well Sunday I was in a couple of singing groups not uh I mean I'm not a great singer I love this thing but sometimes I probably shouldn't um you should always sing I found it's not later that the Tinkwater I was in and I was in a men's group and then there was a teen ensemble group that I think I was in um I didn't know this at the time but I found out later that they would always have my mic on like either off or on one is that right I'm up there praising the Lord with my voice uh-huh you're listening to me from doing that because I don't sound as good as somebody else then why am I even up there it just show uh yeah that's right if they really they believe people hear in a joyful noise to the Lord then they wouldn't be cutting everyone's mic down low so oh yeah he's up there it's a good show he's up to sing but we're gonna have this mic on a one or two or maybe off because he doesn't really he doesn't really belong there but we want him to feel like he's already something even though he's really not it's that fakeness but I just I just went along with it um just again you that went along with it or you were the one that got in trouble that's right and they wouldn't go to the pan and the pan was always pushed off the side I remember seeing there's a teenager that they would go to certain teenagers and they would and an adult would ask the teenager to do something and that teenager would say no and then a adult would claim that Bob Gray said for them to do that stop you want a hog lost at the beginning with hey what do you know would your preacher tell you to do something that's like God saying it that's what I heard just the other day yeah but I believe a lot of times those people that wanted you to do something they just said that to add a little bit of power to their name yeah they were taking Bob's name in vain yeah and that's right where's the bg29 or something yeah that's that's what it was and and if you ever went against what that individual said and you said no or something then here comes preacher coming around the corner you better do what he tells you to do blah blah blah blah blah blah what's wrong with going to the parent going hey for the son so and so and so preacher had asked her son to say to hear he's not being obedient he should be sitting here like preacher watching too but they never did that and the reason why was it because the parent would go well it's my child I want my child to sit here I told my child to sit here they didn't know that flash they just wanted everybody to agree with everybody they didn't want to clash with the parents because a lot of times the parents would have no child sit in a specific spot where they could keep an eye on for a specific reason and it didn't matter what he really else wanted I mean yeah and mom and dad wanted us to sit somewhere we would sit with mom and dad told us it's it it doesn't work bad when anyone else said and I preach out a problem with that or if an adult had a problem with that then they should go to the parent absolutely the parent is the one who's actually parenting the child and actually paying for the child not the preacher what occurs to me right now as I'm listening to this as I'm editing this is just how absurd is the notion that the pastor of the church should have any opinion at all as to where anyone sits at the auditorium I just I can't I can't get my mind around it the pastor is very concerned about where individual people are sitting to the point that other people are going to him about it. It's just bizarre. Anyway, and it's just it's ridiculous. She just want to eliminate the parent because you don't believe the parent has the qualifications to pay it. Well, you know, learn things along the way. It's it is craziness. On Thursday for teenagers, they were supposed to go so winning on Thursday night, be on the team, but it's a teenager that's what's supposed to do. And you had teen zoning on Saturday. Well, when I got a job on a heavy factory, and I'm paying my way through school, I'm making a little bit of money because I'm working more hours. So I'm paying my way through. So I put the entity not a part of LBTO, or I put the entity. So I got my entire paycheck. Well, with the exception of what the government told, obviously. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no. I quite they didn't have to give it all some days. Oh, man, that'd be bad. They would take it and put you on jail or that was a case. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, when without worked for hand, real factory was in the back, I'm cooking the hamburgers and I had this big open grill and had this hand made spatula. It was basically a pair of bicegrips. There was like welded shut onto a metal spatula. Like the handle of the spatula was gone, but they took a bit of bicegrips or something and they planted onto this metal spatula. And they wow. God to stay. And that was your spatula. That was how you flick hamburgers. And I would have as many as 50, 75, 100 patties on this open grill at one time. An open flame. There would be several big bottles that we you'd have of water and you'd have to spray the grill to kind of calm it down a little bit sometimes. Sure. Yeah. But still you wanted the hamburger goes to cook. She didn't want to douse the fire. You want to kind of dump it. It happened to be on on Wednesday nights. I think I was I think I was off on Wednesday night. Those nights, I would work Thursday night instead of going on teen sewinging. Okay. And it was okay. I mean, nobody really said anything about it. It wasn't a big deal until a couple of teenagers were like, if it's if it's wrong for us to miss teen sewinging just to work, then what's wrong with that? You got to be fair here. Right. Right. And honestly, they had a point that a started point because I mean, I was being my way through school and that was kind of the exception to the rule. If you want to call it because I'm paying money school, you know, work. And what it's what I know, it's I had to in order for me to go to school. Again, if you want to be obedient to the rules that they established, then you need to follow what the rules said. They didn't mind enforcement all the other walls and sub sub walls and substandard stuff that ages made up. So let's be real. Let's be fair. And so what is in at some point was like, okay, what he can do is he can work from be the seven seven thirty. And then when I pick him up, we can go sewing and then I'll just take him home. Okay. My song winning, if you want to call it that, was from seven thirty to nine every every every Thursday. And I just want to put this in in your work clothes. And my work clothes, because they would go to school. Yeah. And for me, and I was nasty. I'm a sweater. I stepped outside 60, 70 degrees. I just sweat. So you can understand it as a young child going to school, changing my clothes into pee clothes, being out on the hot sun because Texas hates us. Especially daughter summer class in sweaty. Now, I haven't been able to shower change or anything because straight from school, I'm going to work and I'm changing to my work clothes. Yeah. Of course, I was my hands and I did the best I could be clean, but I'm still nasty. Yeah. And then from that point, from work, I'm going in with both Zinn sitting in his car for about an hour and a half, just to go to the morning. And then I was able to go home. Yeah. I feel, I mean, I appreciate what he's doing to try to help me out. But in the same thing, it's like, why would you add that much pressure on people? Why would people do that much? You know, especially when I wasn't working because I wanted to. Uh-huh. And a little bit extra money on the side helped out. But I was mainly working because I had to pay my way through school. Yeah. High school. Just like, yeah, high school. Yeah. Just like Anthony had mentioned him, they're working to go bail. And I don't know what kind of scenario he went through as far as on those nights. But that that we're showing ahead of you had shut down. They won't get as much business as they need it. And so I ended up getting a job at ABC Auto in the warehouse. And I started doing that. I started working doing this some of the time. It was like 17. There was me, my brother and another friend of ours. We worked together at ABC Auto and we would from 8 a.m. till until sometimes till 9 30 10 o'clock at night. Because my dad was a delivery driver from ABC Auto. He would work overnight. And they had a position that was called bullers. There were people that go through and they would pull the auto pulse that was needed in order for the driver to leave and get all this stuff he needed. They were short one of two pullers because one left because they were sick or didn't show up to work or whatever. Or if they had a bigger load that day, we technically would get off at five. But we would stay to help the pullers pull stuff that they needed to get the drivers out so they can get started at a decent time. So they had a time somewhere or some time we would go in at 8 o'clock in the morning. But then when we get off till 9 30 10 o'clock at night and we just worked the entire day. And we didn't care. We loved working. The boss over the warehouse was like, you guys, you all need to stop this. You all making the labor board come down on me. You all work at too many hours. Yeah, working hours a week. But when school year came around, we were doing it three o'clock in the afternoon and we would work till 9 9 30 10 something like that. And then dad would take us home or the friend that we worked with his parents would take us home and we just paid him gas money. I think that was a arrangement something like that. Anyway, I've always loved music. I tell the story of myself now. When I was younger on Sundays, they would play a, I want to say it was 107.3. They would play a show. There was a top 40s. So what I would do is I would take a tape recorder and I would record. I would lay my tape recorder on top of the radio and I would have it record everything the entire day. You are talking by language now because this is the 80s. I know you're not the 80s. I'm the 80s. And this is what we did back in the day. We would put the tape recorder on the radio. Yes. So we could replay it on the bus on the school bus. Go ahead. I didn't replay on school bus. I would play it in my house. But I had those headphones. There was like the material headphones. The squishy squishy. There was really, really itchy. But I like to pair that. So I would listen to that whenever I had to be time. There's a couple of Sundays to where I would say that I was sick and to be sick. So I can listen to my whole thing live. And that's a deal for me. I got in trouble one time because dad had to come early for something. And he goes, what do you listen to in there? And I'm like, um, yeah, I got in trouble that morning. And it really got me in trouble also because I would send my mom club for a certain time. But I would forget instead of moving the notch to a sound like me, me, me, me. I forgot I left it on the bit. I'm not with it. Radio station. So my low clock is going off. It's going off to, I don't know, I'm gonna pick a song. I'm really curious what it looks like daily again. And I had a lot because I wasn't heavy sleeper. So yeah, I got in the lot of trouble for that too. So I've, but I've always been a music guy. I've always loved music. So at some point when I was working at 80's, I started out as a stalker, just putting stuff on the shelf, break pads, rotors, alterators, starters, bug plugs, whatever. They are then moving me to the shipping and receiving the area to walk in cool and defects and back there I'm like it's only separate arena and that was like the first time that I really got Introduced into the rock and heavy metal scene. There was guys out. They were My boss left country never been a fantasy country. I'm sorry You don't have a dog named blue in other words But we went great used to do a guy to dog named blue. Yeah Okay Of course, I'm no BT ensemble music singing piano organ or violin or something like that maybe yeah Bill Gator Bill Gator is worldly Yeah, but that you mentioned that you let that is real funny you mentioned though Because Bill Gator music was bad But if we had to see music it was okay for us to sing it. Yes, that's a fact What's good for the girls just get to the gano if his music is bad then we shouldn't really be singing his music at all Right Because music was really that bad. Yeah, I mean if we really Um, but doing that time I'm walking back there I would hear I forgot about the ACDC. I would hear Pantella. I would hear a service garden I would hear Metallica. God, so I'm trying to think of other groups back in the day back then They're still out. It's kind of open up was done I a difference out of music Then I'm like man, this is actually pretty good stuff Mm-hmm and I'm like But one of my songs that I really appreciate Metallica one of those songs that they're seeing is master puppets If you really sit down and you really think about it It's not Bad and evil like you think it is It's about addiction and how addiction can control you Uh-huh. How would have people? Yep, and so that and the song the other song they sing called one Tell us an amazing story about a soldier and it does get political so I'm not gonna get into that But it tells the story of a this based on a movie But it tells the story about this soldier going to war. I'll go I'll go back even further than that since we're on the subject Black Sabbath song Aussie Osborne song I guess they he released it with both of them war pigs That song is positively biblical It is it has a biblical message And now that you've mentioned out of Aussie Osborne, I'm gonna skip ahead a little bit But whenever I would go to work as sip a one on the loop, I'm a way to work I would always play crazy train With Aussie Osborne on all my on the way to work every two just what are my windows Uh-huh, right I was enjoying all the radio world Which is a song about it's a song about peace Why can't we have peace in the world? Yeah Again you hit the nail on the head. It's about control And another thing that anyone that no one else has ever mentioned was The bookstore inside because Jesus in a New Testament he was flipping tables And the marketplace don't Sell stuff in the marketplace And then all of a sudden Jesus comes soon start flipping tables But then you think okay temple bookstore Why are they there They sort of take the books and stuff like that I'm not 100 percent But I'm pretty sure if Jesus was around he probably would be smashing stuff in the demo bookstore Flip of those tables. Yes Is it was just about money? It was more money to bring in for the church Yeah, and they chose which read and they chose what you could listen to I mean they had candy and man's and stuff like that But then it was all about control because they chose what you could read and what you could listen to Mm-hmm, and if you did support the bookstore then you won't listen to the right kind of material You know don't go to more dowels don't go anywhere else if you want any biblical stuff Go to buy it from the temple bookstore So just to put a and an exclamation point on what you just said there to go to lifeway back in the day It's like it was like going okay So I joke about Baptist going into a liquor store and looking both ways before they duck in Lifeway would have been the same way because there was so much material that was sold there that was so terrible So you know liberal and Bible perversions and everything that the first time after I'd left LBT when I bought a Bible that wasn't King James. I was like cloked with a hood duck in my way in the lifeway This is after I left LBT but it was like Lifeway was as bad as the liquor store I was like you you're Committing the unforgivable sin by going to a good deal Yeah, I will agree that some movies probably shouldn't be shown And and I would agree that if you want to use the analogy that if you go and you watch a movie that's good You'll give it to an institution that's portraying all the bad movies if you want to use that An analogy for you not going to movies studio. Then yes, that's fine. That's your opinion But don't make it don't make it a law for everybody else Actually exactly at the end of the day There is nowhere you can spend money Where it's not going to be used for something later that you don't agree with So it's kind of like You know support what you want to Yeah But again the belt control If we can control them and it's like that control and it's not prisoned bubble If we can just control them and keep them in that prison bubble That there'll be all is for the public for the keeping for the rest of their life What does it mean, Andrew? I didn't really try to rock the bow very much I tried to be able to be in you know, I tried to do what was right Of course in spanked a lot you know That that kind of sunk in eventually and so I kind of was obedient so I wouldn't be Um, I wouldn't give myself a trouble So when I became a senior in high school, I kind of grew into this Followed to mindset I was a follower Because that's what they groomed you to be they groomed you to be a follower absolutely So when I went into go see preacher It wasn't hey preacher. I think I should do this For hey preacher I think I should do that it was preacher. What do you think I should do? Right because this time it's been you do this you do this you do this and you do this and you do this and you do this and you do this and you do this and you do this and now you have an opportunity to Think and I put in the quotation marks think for yourself and all of a sudden you have to make a decision on what you want to do And you've never had that opportunity before So when I went to preacher It was hey, what do you think I should do? I have no idea All this time it's you do this you do this you do this you do this you do this you do this you do this you do this you do this you do And then all of a sudden it's like what am I supposed to do? Mm-hmm. I don't know I love people I love serving people I love helping people I love being around people Mm-hmm So he goes well you would be a great assistant pastor so I think you should take part of theology I'm like Okay, I mean cool sweet Mm-hmm. Okay, continue on tell me what to do just just tell me was I was still working for ABC Auto But I'll go to school Working ABC Auto and then at some point I quit working for ABC Auto because I wasn't making enough money to make it to pay my ways to do college Okay, so what year did you graduate LCA? Okay, and then you immediately enrolled in text maps college The September September of 2003 yet So in tuta what was this around the same time as Billy Bob Herner? Graduated really well one year younger than me so he graduated Gotcha, okay, gotcha, okay I say this now, but Justin Williams was actually one of my favorite history teachers But I've ever had only saying when I was a senior in high school he taught our history class And our final exam you would have this list of Questions that you had to answer that would be part of your final He taught history and so his thing was I want you to pick three separate scenarios. in history that if they happened opposite, how would they affect the world now? As a scenario, for example, we want World War II. What would be like at that point if we lost World War II? She wanted to think a little bit and add some philosophy to use the material and kind of use little imagination. We want you to think, what would the way it would be like if we stay out of it now? What would be like if we lost World War I? You know, what would the world be like if Japan never attacked Paul Halber? Comes nails like that. Yeah. And that was good. And what that creating was, then the volume to use your noodle, to use your brain in a way you've never done before because all this other time, everything was just jammed into you. Now all of a sudden, you have an opportunity to use your god-given mindset of imagination. So yeah. And so what you're telling me when I'm hearing is that Justin Rios obviously learned from Kurt Mathis and now I have on my list of people who actually wanted students to learn how to think for themselves in the upper grades, 'cause I don't want to throw any shade toward Miss Rady. She was in elementary school, but in the upper grades, that runs my list up to two who actually wants you to learn to think for yourselves. And so I'm glad you gave that witness right there. And I'll remember if there's my senior year or my junior year, I don't remember, but it was one of those years. The history final was writing three essays. I mean, they will massive essays. They will like 75, 100 word essays, but three separate essays, or we just picked a scenario and that really changed my mindset. And really got me thinking outside the box a little bit, but I graduated from high school 'cause started going to college. I'm going towards a partial theology major quit ABCO 'cause I wasn't making enough money. I'm starting working for simple one, working in a media department on how I ate. And it was nice, but again, my shift was like two to eight or two to seven. So I'm working five, six hours a day. Still not having a lot of money. If you go towards my school. And there were times that I would stay later, but like 12 or one, around the time that I would get off work and would continue work for pizza hot. And he'd come by and pick me up and take me home sometimes. But there were times that I would stay later to help them stock a truck if they were short handed, or if the truck came in late or whatever. So I would stay two to like 12 or one, just to help them out. And then at some point, I guess the meat department manager wasn't in pleasure with what I was doing and didn't like how the job I was doing. And so Mr. Simmons, the store director, came up to me one day and goes, "Well, what do you think about working overnight?" You'd get, I think he said like a 25 or 50 cent extra hour and he would give 40 hours, 40 plus hours a week. And I'm like, "Man, that's great. More hours, more pay." Yeah, yeah, it's no sign me up. - Yeah. - I didn't realize the difficulty of working overnight. And that was a big step to me because. It's a whole new ball game. - Yeah. - That then when I first started working overnight, energy joining stuff like that hadn't really come into play yet. They did come a couple years down the road. I was shugging my undo. - Mound-do. - I was taking Ijwen. I think it was called Vidwen. - Yes. - Oh, no. - I was taking that kind of stuff just to. 'Cause you had to stay in the world. Yeah. - Yeah. - You had to stay away. - Yeah, Viver's caffeine. - You had to do what you had to do. - Sure. - Those people guys that I knew that would take EC powder because BC powder had caffeine in it also. - Wow, I didn't know that. - And it helped with your playing too. And so people would just do what they had to do to get just goodbye. And they were kind of, I remember on a Sunday night stocking that there would be guys that mean to be clearly the thing, but it's just a bunch of guys working. There would be guys stocking like I'll two, I'll three. And they were like being the boxes just stocking, just as they would do absolutely anything and everything just to stay awake. Because they just went on the school doing the day. They had to go to work once they got off work and they had classes a following day. And they routine the rotation that you would see and went from day to day to day to day to day. And I've been, I was, I had worked overnight for a long time. You've heard the stories, like you had mentioned from this class this morning, Monday morning class, the limit amount of time, people would get to sleep and being in college, if you got any sleep on Sunday, that was a luxury. - Absolutely. - It was almost like, where did you come from? Did I lose time somewhere? Did I forget to do something? Did I over sleep somewhere? Where was it snowing so now, Pat? That's exactly how it was. - We were also fed, and I don't know if I ever brought this out before, we were fed this total BS, this beautiful stupidity, that the man of God, Bob Gray senior, was a great man. He was a great man. He was a great man. The man of God, Bob Gray senior, he barely slept at all. He went on five hours sleep a night, if he even got that, and he thrived on it. And if we wanted to be men of God, then we didn't need, we were a bunch of lazy devils, if we thought we needed more sleep than that. And it was a bunch of total, and I want to make sure that I enunciate this clearly, BS, because your body needs sleep. And the only reason they wanted you to do without sleep is because it's a control tactic. - Exactly. - Yeah. - 100%. - 100%. So I was working overnight for several years. At the same school starts, the same school schedule as many other guys worked. And a lot of times we look at the guys at a schedule that they worked. And I think sometimes you forget about the lady, the schedules, their ladies worked also, because they were sometimes on bus routes. And then they had to work from three to midnight, I believe was the cutoff. So they would be on bus routes up until midnight. And if they had to be on a bus and a street court at three o'clock in the morning, I mean, you get off work at midnight, you barely have any time to sleep beyond Monday, Saturday. So, you know, a lot of times we look at the things that the guys went through, which was horrendous to begin with. But we forget about the ladies who had to work that second shift on a Saturday, being on bus route all day, and then had to go to work and then going on bus route all day Sunday. That gets glazed over sometimes, because a lot of times the second shift people, they kind of get forgotten in the mix. Now, it's on any other day that they would go off at midnight. They would come home or they'd go home or they'd go back to the dorm room, get cleaned up, and they'd be in bed by one thirty-two o'clock and get up at six thirty-seven to start their day. They'd get a four and a half, four and a half hour nap. That still would not sleep for somebody to make it, repeatedly on a daily basis. It's not. Go by your statement, that's even still less than what the preacher was saying than every man's hitting. That's even underneath what he's said. So if anything, he's downgrading himself, making himself look bad, but I tried to make us look bad, because we're getting wet by the sleep and what he's actually getting. So as it turns out, he was the lazy devil. By his own statement, by his own words, that he tried to slow us. He was basically calling himself lazy. Yeah. But working overnight, working weekends, those were small, particular weekends, that I remember, it was a big day weekend, or what the deal was, but I was on my way home from work, and just finished working the weekend in school, everything, and coming home on the morning, on my way to school, and I was coming down High Street, because the membership point on 80, it's going to apply street, to take a left on the add-on, and I was going to stay with my parents, and I was doing an awful bad at that point. At some point, I just blacked out, and I did two vehicles. I was in a 87 tours, and you go back and you do research, they didn't plan any airbags and the toruses until the early 90s. Okay. Oh, when I hear the vehicle in front of me, it was like a pancake, because there were two vehicles at the turn of. Hi, and I have the long there were two vehicles that already stopped I Blacked out so I just kept going I Hit the middle vehicle and in that middle vehicle hit the vehicle in front Now the vehicle in front didn't sustain very much damage because there's a bigger SUV the middle vehicle And it's still kind of frustrated me a little bit that the middle vehicle had a late she was driving I Mid-A's on the Civic's events today and this is this a small vehicle like a hatchback Uh, but this lady was pregnant. Oh, basically when I fell asleep at the will I smashed her in the middle of two vehicles Just because just because I Was just so exhausted and so tired Not blacked out. I could have killed two people Yeah Just because I was so busy doing everything that they wanted to do and you felt morally obligated to do everything that they wanted you to do and And to be sleep deprived and I will say this that driving while sleep deprived is Is more dangerous than driving while intoxicated and They while they were adamant that like for example your dad shouldn't even work as a security guard It stroves brewery because they served alcohol and that's wicked at the same time there they are putting a moral Obligation on people in other words with the voice of God Using God's name to enforce a moral obligation on you and not just you but a lot of people To be in a position where you were more dangerous than a drunk driver while you were out on the road Yeah, absolutely Yeah Lucky lucky for me the mom and the baby were okay Thank God didn't they throw anything but can you imagine how I would have I mean I felt bad to begin with Can you imagine me being charged and going to jail for Was it unintended manslaughter or something? Yeah, yeah and kill the lady, you know pregnant baby Yeah, just because I'm doing what I believe was a right thing to do. Yes Yes, and that brings and that brings me to my next story to the next thing connecting point And you know this for a fact by what other people have said how did they push the guy to get to a CD All of it's it and in first isn't really doesn't really describe a No, he were told to period about it. Yeah Got it every week Once I got my driver's license and I was driving everywhere. I got it. I got it Like every day every week, but this one particular time I had this person come with me. I'm not my own business name She came up to me and he goes you got your CD or license yet and it was a month or two after my call And I just had it. I pulled a BG on him. Yeah Grab film and I put him against the wall and I said seriously You want me to get my CD or license? Do you realize that I woke up a night? Do you seriously want me to drive a bus for the kids and Work overnight do you seriously want a someone who's sleep deprived to drive a bus for the kids and Take that chance. I fall asleep at the wheel and hoat and A bus full of kids I Said just two months ago. I was in a call every felt because I felt sick with the wheel Mm-hmm and I could have killed him. I could have killed those two people I could have killed a mama and her baby because I fell asleep with the wheel Do you seriously want me to drive a bus and to be behind the wheel? Do you want that on your conscience? Because me as opposed is an individual don't Mm-hmm. I let him go and he walked away. I never got any grief about that Good for you I Could tell how that the temperature I'm using a temperature kind of change About that I bet I was a follower and I would do whatever they want me to do everything was gravy Mm-hmm, but as soon as I put my foot down and said something I did something all of a sudden Well, let's just leave him alone. Let's just we're gonna do something with him Because my it wasn't college my dating wasn't that great Just being honest, but when I did I was dating somebody probably be like oh, yeah He's a great guy great guy guy guy, but ever since that scenario happened It was even more challenging for me to fight some of them that would even give me the time of day everything changed It slipped I Was still I was still into school Good so I got a question your accident while you were asleep when you fell asleep at the wheel Is that before or after the accident that took the life of Bill Nelson? After it was way after Well, okay the accident that was a bill had I was Seven eighth grade maybe Okay, I had I was in the middle of going to school. I was in college. So it's like oh four oh five. Yeah Me no no it was no three I played in high school in authority so it was like maybe Six oh something like okay, I'm working on getting to bed Because I called a lot with the most people when I'm a fixer tell you why I Me too If there's a little bit to mind that you had in class because I'll be honest with you I never did finish and I was in school for a while after that after that after my call actually I took myself out of a lot of things that I was doing and I just said doing them Yeah, I was still in school. I was still out of your college, but I'm like but I said I'm not I'm a I'm not in a bus route I'm not in the bus ministry. I'll substitute and I'll do more in the Sunnest School Ministry I'll substitute and I'll do more in music. I'll substitute and I'll do more in the other ministry, but I'm not doing bus for the street I'm not I'm not doing that. I'll visit I was I was visiting after they had happened at the beginning I was helping the sixth grade boys and I was in a Sunnest School. All right, and I forget the guy I was working on I helped underneath but I was like the God of the World of Black hat I was the God of handing bad kids So you were bad cop basically I was a balance. I was a big guy The Sunday school baltzer Thompson for kids who are like fifth and sixth grade so if you can't handle is that age You know But in the beginning and and I'll get to let him get to this one this story I found out that the main reason why a lot of children who wrote buses That acted up while the teacher was teaching or while the open assembly area was going on It wasn't because they were bad kids Maybe one out of ten maybe a half to one I ten maybe But most of the problems while they were acted out like that was because of a home problem Either one they didn't get the attention that they believe they needed as a child which is legitimately Yeah, the step-hand didn't treat them how they Thought they should be treated. Okay, why are you wrong? You have children who are acting out not because they're bad They're all bad kids They just lacked the natural attention that a child would need makes perfect sense. Yes, so These children Growing up in an environment like that You know how do they how do you expect them to be successful? They won't really bad kids They want kids that that that's your goal to Be a kid and to be be a good and all of a sudden your part is church that demands you to sit there Sit down and shut up Mm-hmm as a child So it played an emotional I am most all encyclological effect on these kids. Yeah, I Didn't really realize But After after my after my accident I went to brother Bob and I was having struggled dating to were dating - and I was getting up on I think 24-25 something like that. I was still single. I mean, I want to get married I was telling Carlos, but I wanted to get married. I wanted date. I wanted to have a fiance. I wanted a family one day And so I went to brother Bob and I was like hey, can I be moved doing a dog class so I can be around a lot of single adults Oh yeah, yeah, that's fine. That's good. That'd be perfect. Yeah, that'd be fantastic. So at this point is he the pastor of the church because senior has left? Yeah, I think so. Okay. I think look has been pastor. Um, if not, it's in the works in the transition. Okay. Um, so what about had put me in with another mentioned of me? I have who stuck for this guy, a very sincere honest guy. You probably would recognize him if I mentioned some of the things that he did. He was the most real individual that I've ever met in my life. But he loves reaching. Street reaching? Yes, he would be out on the streets every Friday and also Friday. Then matter how hard or how cold it would be, he would be out there straight preaching. And he just reached. Um, he worked for the church and he was a janitor, but I started helping him. And on Saturdays, I would, I would drive to, I would visit the people and halls there on Marshal that was in his son's school class and he would visit the hall for long view and clay water. These are all the dull, bust people. And then on Sunday, it was Sunday came along. I would lead the singing for him. I would sing and he would preach the son's school lesson. Okay. When I say, he's a son's school lesson, he was in the fellowship hall. Uh-huh. And he had a microphone. But I'm gonna tell you something. He really didn't need a microphone. He got robbed up on a point, people in the auditorium that was here in pre, there was here in preacher, preacher, but about kids to school last, they would hear what we were, but he, what he was saying. Uh-huh. So he's getting excited about something, but it said to me, helped him work with kids. I was working with the, with adults. Um, and I, and I helped in that position for a long time, to the point where I believe that if something were to happen to him, that I was gonna take over his son's school class because I love the people. They were awesome people. They were great people. Yeah. I mean, when he preached with their faces off and they would just be like, "Mass preacher brother, we love you." He didn't, but he's just, he's just, he's so far from with you. But, but there he was, he was a good guy. He was in a nursing home. This is really a great guy, but when, when, when, when Bilboat first, um, became pastor, he kind of instituted and began to get into um, the environment of helping the community and helping people at church that needed help financially. Okay. If I'm saying I would really give him credit for, I'm on the thousands of things that he's done that was wrong. The one thing that I said that I believe that he did right was he actually formulated a food pantry that wasn't just like leftovers of leftovers. Okay. Actually, food like the church would purchase produce and meat and stuff from, I think East Texas food bank or something. And we would provide the food to people in the community who needed help, who needed food. So he was actually giving back to the community. He did that little um, uh, me with me helping this individual. He was also in charge of, I'm gonna get this wrong, but I'll describe it. There have been benevolent ministry. Yeah, people that need his help with their bills and stuff. Now the pastor that they did about kind of disagree with the little bit. Okay. Um, day, of course, you had to have your driver's license or ID and you had to bring a bill that said that the amount that you owed, which I'm okay with. I'm fine. Yeah. Sure. Obviously, because you know, as a nonprofit organization, you have paperwork that you have to fill out. So, and you have to get records. So I get that. But the next thing is they had to um, be at the Sonny Moor and Sonny Night Service. That's not feasible for everybody. No, it's not. Sometimes people had to work Sonny Moor and all Sonny Night. Just to, I mean, these are not, these are not people that are in the church that go to church on a regular basis. These are people who are outside of the church doing, hey, I need help. So part of the process of them getting the help that they need, which by the way, and I'm going to be honest with you, wasn't always guaranteed. Okay. This point, it wasn't always guaranteed. Okay. They had to feel their misacquartifications before anything was done. And how went that? Because nothing there's done by grace. It's all of works. Go ahead. Um, they had times where this person with me was somebody on a Wednesday afternoon. And he would mean with, you know, three or four separate families. And we'd go through the process. And he'd tell them how, you know, you know, part of our policy is a B C D whatever part of what Daniel said was lost here. But what he was saying was that the people were told ultimately that even if they met the criteria, there was no guarantee they were going to get the help that they needed. And for the reason that, well, Daniel is about to explain to us that reason. He, they're going to get the help that you need because ultimately, it wasn't anything extra that church would give. Similarly, it depends upon how much people in the church would give at the end of the service. See what would happen after we treat you in the invitation. What happened? There's a baptism or whatever. Afterwards, there'd be what's called a cleaning's offering. And brother Bob would go, hey, we have one family that we need to help tonight or we have two family that needs a help. So we need to help tonight. Oh, there's three families who we need to help tonight. You know, if there's four or five families, they'd be like, Hey, you know, probably we really need to dig deep. And we really need to help these families out tonight. And what happened was us, who was at the beginning, who would just walk around with often plates and people would pull out, Johnny or a tin or five dollar bills or whatever. And that's how people would be helped. And whatever money that was brought to the table was brought it was given, that's the amount of families that they will be able to help that week. So if the total amount that they needed was a thousand dollars, as for say, but they only was able to raise five hundred dollars. What happens? There were two, there was only a couple families that fulfilled all those qualifications. They still don't get the help they need, even though they're going to assess, because ultimately it went down to how much the people gave at the end of the service. Guy, I got you. They were times that I would go and I'd visit my, the sonnest group teacher on Wednesday and he would just be finished. I'm dealing with three or four families, getting them through the process and he'll get down and he'd see me and I could see his demeanor and his face was just distraught and discouraged and just like, I don't know. And so I'd go, Hey man, what's going on? Because that's normally not him. He's normally upbeat. He's only happy. He's not be giddy. But there were times where he would look at me and go, I mean, this guy's in his 50s. He's called me brother Daniel. You know, brother Daniel. I don't see how the church is going to be able to help all these people. I'm going to be will. I don't know how the church is going to be able to do it. I don't know whether there's the amount or whatever the case was, but I saw that man. No, being a, my being a janitor, looking for LBT, you didn't get paid a lot of money. You didn't get paid working for LBT to begin with unless you were higher up on the hierarchy. Right. And unless you want the upper S line, all the little people didn't really get that much. No, they didn't. But I saw that man take money out of his pocket and would give and would help people. He would physically take money out of his pocket, the little bit of money he had. And he would do what he could to help people. Because he believed that other that they wouldn't get help any other way. There was just no way. I don't know if the L was just so high or whatever the scenario was. And there'd be other times to wear same demeanor and I would see him and then you go, well, you got this big need. And I don't know how things are going to work out. I'll give X amount of dollars to go towards it. And I would say, hey, You know, let me go across the street. Let me, let me, let me put my budget together real quick and my paycheck would hit while I was a super one 'cause I'm still a super one at this time. Let me see what I can do. And I would give at that point money to Hill to help go towards the goal of health or family, whether it was food, or go to the school, you see or whatever, just that time of point because he knew that need will just hit great. The best giving you did by the way, go ahead. - Yeah, 'cause you actually help people. - Yes. - And the thing that I will give credit to VG the second was having something like that in place. It was a point in time when the benevolence passed to left and went to go help his sons, his sons chose and I'll get to that scenario a little bit. At that ministry kind of just joined, dwindled up and just died. So there's nothing else to take to take that place. - That was part one of my conversation with Daniel Hamilton. Daniel at this point is still going strong and still has a lot of things to say about his experience there. Thus far, it has been stupendous. He's covered some very important aspects of what was normal to us at the time. But in retrospect, was abusive and terrible. By the way, the sonny school teacher he speaks so highly of, dexter lenders. He's no longer there. But I thought his name deserved to be mentioned in a positive light. It was stood out to me the most in this part one of this conversation was the sleep deprivation. And how it endangered not just the lives of students and church members, but people in the community as well. I thought that was a powerful witness when Daniel told about his car accident because he dozed off at the wheel trying to meet the expectations of the man of God. I dare say that those expectations led to a reckless endangerment of people's lives on a regular basis. And I can bear witness to this as well. People regularly drove in a sleep deprived state trying to keep up with what was demanded of them by Bob Gray senior. And for what? Why were we risking our own lives and the lives of others by getting behind the wheel, often of a sonny school bus in a physical state in which we had no business behind the wheel? We were driving impaired. And we were doing it for what? The glory of Bob, of course. How dare we do otherwise. Daniel is going to continue his narrative next week. On Tuesday, I will be dropping part two of what it would look like if the staff members of the entity formerly known as the Longview Baptist Temple ever actually got right with God. I'm borrowing their language there. If they were to ever repent and mend their ways, what would that look like if you haven't listened to part one yet? Be sure to do that. It's called a reckoning, part one. If you know someone you think would be helped by this episode, be sure to send them a link like share, comment, follow, do all the things. Order some jerky from Jay Boz jerky on Facebook. Jay Space B a W S space jerky. Give Jeremy something to do during the off season. Coming up, I have Doug Petersma, followed by a mystery guest and a second conversation with Jamie Andrews in which we're going to dive deeper into how the culture of LBT was the perfect culture for sexual abuse to take place. Thank you for listening today. Be kind. [Music] one.