Follow The Money: EVEN, Duetti, and The New Deal Stack

[Music] I'm Dan Runcy, welcome to Trappitle. For most of the modern music business, the artists have had pretty limited options in terms of what financing look like. They can sign a record deal, they get in advance, maybe they'd fight over their royalty rates, but they hope that the machine would work out in their favor. But in the past 15 years, the menu of options has grown considerably. There are platforms for every type of artist that would try to do any type of thing. If you want to release your music independently and only pay a small flat fee, you can do that. If you want a bit more support and you're willing to share a cut of your future earnings, you can do that too. And if you want to tap into the value of your music without a traditional record label advance, there are several ways to do that too. In this episode, we're going to talk about two companies that are sitting at the center of that shift. Two economic platforms that, in different ways, are giving artists more options than they didn't have before. The first one you'll hear a conversation with Magrad Riga's. He is the CEO and co-founder of Even, which is a director-consumer platform where artists can sell music and products directly to their fans. And we talk about what changes happen when that fan relationship isn't just streamed this song by this thing or something transactional. This is about turning loyalty and community into meaningful revenue. An in full disclosure, trappled adventures, adventure fund that I am the general partner of, is an investor in Even. After you hear my conversation with Mag, you'll hear my talk with Leo Tiban. He is the CEO and co-founder of Dewetty, a company that invests in music rights and also built its own exclusive platform to be able to evaluate music rights deals. Primarily some of the deals that other private equity firms or funds may not be looking at. To date, Dewetty has raised hundreds of millions of dollars to both build its own company and its platform in the technology to do these deals at scale, but to also invest in the assets themselves. So if you're an investor or operator trying to better understand the landscape, if you're an artist or rights holder yourself that is building a business and want to better understand what the options look like for direct sales, deepening your fan ownership or unlocking your own capital, this is an episode made for you. And we get into the infrastructure underneath how music is changing and what it means for the next generation of careers. Let's get into it. This episode of Trappital is presented by Linktree, the Link and Bio tool that lets artists house everything in one place. Streaming links, tour dates, merch videos, audience collections, socials, and more. With 60 integrations across the platforms you already use like TikTok, Instagram, Shopify and Laylo, Linktree allows you to centralize your ecosystem, save time, and optimize your entire online presence from one place. Fans can tap one link and choose their preferred streaming platform, whether it's Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music or any others to easily listen to your releases and make discovery seamless. You can build hype before the release day, with Spotify pre-save links and automatically use those to convert to streaming links when your track goes live. You can also own your audience by collecting fan emails and phone numbers directly through your Linktree and build a list that you control instead of depending on algorithms. You can also see which cities engage most with your music, which links get clicked, and when fans are active, plan your tours and releases smarter. Use code Trappital50 for 50% off your first three months of Linktree Pro. That's T-R-A-P-I-T-A-L-5-O. You can get started at linktree.com or tap the link in our show notes, terms and conditions apply for more info, tap the link in our show notes to view the landing page. If you love listening to Trappital and want to stay ahead in the world of tech, startups and venture capital, equity. TechCrunch's flagship podcast has the Insight Scoot. Every Wednesday and Friday, they dive into the stories that matter most, from expert interviews to in-depth discussions and round table chats with their team of TechCrunch reporters. Whether you're an entrepreneur looking for tips or just curious about what's shaping tomorrow's world, they've got you covered. Tune into equity wherever you get your podcasts. Today we are joined by my guy, Magrad Riegas, the CEO and co-founder of Even. Welcome to Trappital. Man, I'm so honored to be here. I'm also excited. Feels surreal, actually. I appreciate you making the time. And we're talking for good reason. You've had a number of strong announcements to kick off 2026. But let's start with Jay Cole releasing the fall off his latest studio album and having the physical, digital and the pre-sells for his tour coming through even. It feels like a lot of the momentum you've had over the past couple of years is proving we are built for artists that are doing their own thing independently. We are also built for the biggest artist in the world. So this is a pretty cool case study to see come to life. Yeah, I mean, it's incredible. You know, one of the main stuff that comes up, especially with like an artist at this level, I think no one really questions when a little Russell or a Mick Jenkins chooses to use even. But I think something that comes up is like, well, Jay Cole's a superstar and he's working with UMG and inner scope. Why didn't they just do this themselves? And I think the misconception there is tied to people thinking that even is just a storefront. But it's more than that. I think especially as artists are get bigger and are global superstars, there's a lot of moving pieces to really make that machine work. And speed is ends up being the decision maker, you know, launching a storefront and a web store, which is just a front facing element can take weeks and, you know, a good amount of resources and getting the artist buying, getting the label buy in, etc. And for us, even offers that turnkey solution where we're built for the music industry, everything from ingesting content, paying out publishing, paying out to the MLC reporting to billboard or luminate so those sales count towards billboard creating community engagement that bridges those communities together. And that's really why partners are choosing to come to even were honored like this is our third campaign was Jay Cole. It's not the first release. We initially worked with with Cole on the inevitable audio series. The initial intention was never even to do anything with music. It was more so for him to release his audio series and they chose even infrastructure to do so and then from there turned into the tenure anniversary of the album, where they released bonus tracks that weren't available in the initial release. They did a vinyl release to do the live stream at Madison Square Garden. And from there every step of the way we've been able to prove the value of our infrastructure not only to withstand the amount of traffic, but also being able to move very nimble and quickly and and how seamless that works. So the second campaign was a 10 year anniversary and then the latest campaign was with the fall off which essentially is the destination to get all things Jay Cole the fall off whether you're buying the vinyl, the CD. There it's not on retail stores the only way to buy this product is directly from Jay Cole's what store that even his powering he has a mixtape there that's not available anywhere else birthday blizzard 26. And then as of this week they launched the official pre sale sign up for his global tour and again fans are going to one destination to get every part of this roll out. Yeah, I do want to dig into the distinction you made because someone could look at this and say okay, Jay Cole he's been working with their scope for a number of years. What does he get from this type of release working with you all as opposed to let's say another inner scope superstar like Billy Eilish who also has her own website has her own ability to get final inventory to release that put that on her storefront as well. And I know you may not know the details about her operation, but yeah, what are you able to offer them that someone like cold didn't have himself through again is own his own website, inner scope dream fill, etc. Everything starts with how even infrastructure is optimized an example that is inside of the inevitable world which is inevitable that live it's like the sister website to the fall off and it was the initial destination there's a community chat where now that launch didn't November of 2024 there have been fans there every single day 24 seven talking to each other it's essentially think of like a discord but without needing a discord. But call also wanted to launch his own version of like a forum and in a matter of like a day he plugged in what he wanted with our team and next you know he launched what's called bill central it's essentially like a reddit meets forum this is where he's hosted an AMA this is where fans are. You know writing like letters of what he means to them but also just asking questions to each other hey did you get the presale code hey who's going to go to this show hey calls doing this you know trunk sales tour around the US you guys know where he's going to be at next so it's become a destination where it's more than commerce it's truly about engagement and welcoming and creating a safe space for fans we've never had to block a user from both inevitable or the fall off or anywhere across even. Because what we've identified is that fans that show up with intention sign up and then pay for access especially through an accessible lens that goes beyond just the storefront right your traditional Web Store is transactional you show up you buy and you leave a store from powered by even fan show up they engage they buy the engage they buy the engage they engage and then that goes on goes on and goes on and I would like to credit that is the reason why you know colon team. Have chose you know to work with even now for for three campaigns and now with you and G we really needed to prove our value of what we do and what we offer and being able to show that and now you know have a company like you and be to say hey we want it be partners we want you to service all of our global artists if they choose to want to release on the platform. Let's talk more about the U.M.G. partnership because I assume that it is similar with coal this is an opt in where now all the artists have access to it but it's likely a conversation between you the heads of the sub labels under the music group and then the individual artists as well. Yeah yeah exactly that and this deal for clarity to this deal is no different than the deal that we did with United Masters or with the two lost or symphonic or secretly or any of our 3000 labels that we service on the platform it's the same exact framework in the exact same essentially deal where it requires the artist by and right the artist has to say I want to sell directly to my fans. And it requires that buy in because it's you know are slogan it by the art from the artist yes many artists have a labor distributor but if it's not the artist going out to their audience and saying hey I have something really special that I worked on and I want you to get it from me and know where else. It doesn't work right this isn't just you know public marketplace where you can go and find releases we do have elements of that but it's really designed to be intentional to really super serve those super fans across the board so yeah it requires an opt in and it's just it's not exclusive as well. A big part of this is we go to none of none of our partners we never said it like exclusivity clauses we want to be Switzerland we want to service a new artist that selling their first five albums and global superstars that are selling their hundreds and thousand album and it's the exact same tool the exact same infrastructure. Let's switch gears a bit to talk about torn because you mentioned the pre sales and I know in the touring business pre sales are a very hot commodity you've had companies like Spotify want to have access to pre sales a lot of credit card companies do cash out what does that look like for even was that a top thing to negotiate especially for artists like Cole who's doing arenas honestly we've never done a pre sell before this is our first time doing a tour pre sale especially at this scale like for this to be our first one you know it was it was interesting but it honestly was something that his team brought to us as an opportunity to explore. You know we have the infrastructure his fans were already engaging through the sites that even is powering so it just made sense to keep it in one place and yeah they they came to us with the idea we showed them how it can work inside of even and it was plugged right back into everything else that we've kind of discussed where our infrastructure is really designed to be turnkey on and now all thing the fall off you go to the fall off calm and it's really designed to be that where yeah I mean it was incredible I I won't lie the night before we launch it so we launched on Monday I didn't get much sleep I was like let's see where this goes and you know I am very confident in what our team has built and the infrastructure where you know it's it's designed for scale so we're curious to see where it goes I think even this is how we built even we had product market bit before we had a business model and now with this pre sale avenue it's something that is now built and other partners can take advantage of and use we haven't built an economic or a business model for yet to be transparent that wasn't necessarily the priority for us it was really just let's show the valley let's see what we can do and then we can walk into those conversations more confident as far as like okay what does this makes sense for even to build out and I think that's the beauty of being a startup in this day and age where like we can move fast we can do the ship things try things and if the demand is there then no one's going to question the you know the economics around it and I think for you all working with the artists like coal on the album release is huge right I believe the numbers I billboard shared was a hundred and ten thousand units sold the finals are fifty dollars each and the CDs are around twenty five and even the digital downloads fifteen okay you can do some back of the envelope map there so several million dollars being pushed through your platform and obviously even as a take rate of that but touring for an artist at that level that is touring and of course the pre sales are only a portion of it but that's how you move from having a GMV that's in the seven figures seven GMV that's in the eight figures right and that's just for one artist in their release so that could be a pretty great business opportunity for you all yeah I think it just has to make sense to the ecosystem right I think we always you know that's a core part of how we build all of our product it's this cannot take away right if when we build product and we make business decisions and the company we always look at is this just taking money from one pool and bringing it the even while there is going to be some instances where that possibly makes sense just because we have a superior product that's not how we're thinking about building in the industry for us it's been very intentional that the product only makes sense if it's adding to the pie if it's adding value and it's giving teams resources to do so so like the intention here isn't like hey we are a better platform to do pre sales signups and engage with fans that's not necessarily our messaging I think for us it's we have it if you want to use it in your existing even campaign but if you have a preferred partner that you already do that with let's plug them into the system and we've done that even a good example of this is we have our own CR and CR and system inside of even it's called even fan connect so think of like SMS sender email sender you can organize your fans and you can send SMS or email blast directly through the platform but we also have direct integrations with community and LayLo and super phone and for us it's really designed to be almost open source like that's really the ultimate vision my my CTO govonder gets nervous when I say that but I think that is the beauty of what we're building you can show up and use even and whatever way you want but if you want to take your data or if you want to bring other parts of your business elsewhere you can do so at any given time and that's the core part of like our ethos and tied back to the name is you feel even you feel fair across the board and for you all maybe to close things out is these partnerships start to grow the types of companies likely want to do them you likely going to get different offers and different pitches I'm sure that a lot of the companies have either tried to invest themselves that is a trend that we often see especially from the major record labels they like to feel like they have a stake in the upside not just from the commercial nature of the partnership but in the actual business that they're helping to push forward to my understanding these companies don't yet whether it's universal too lost or united masters rather these companies don't have an equity stake in even but how do you keep that going and moving forward especially as those opportunities likely continue to grow I mean look we've been blessed to have incredible partners on on the investment side we have incredible investors who understand the vision of even and you know we do a lot of due diligence and who we bring into our cap table and and a big part of it is we want to be Switzerland we know what we built and we know the power of the product that we've built and this should be available to everyone and to the whole ecosystem so you know when I say that the deal that we did with you mg is no different than the deal that we do with the united masters or with the to lost we're very transparent with the way that our deals are set up and the way that even generates revenue and I think for us it's really designed to keep it that way and if anything were to change at any point like it's something that we would of course make a statement notify our partners but as of right now we're excited to have the boys partners and help them add a new line item to their pnl and I think in time as those conversations develop we can have those conversations but no we thought all over Twitter and social you know I think there was two questions one did you mg just acquire even the answer is no and did you mg invest in even and the answer is all four no we're grateful and we're honored to have them as partners they've been incredible to work with among all of our other partners and we want to continue to help our partners offer more tools and resources so their artists can grow their businesses and I think everyone shares that same sentiment across the board and we're just honored to play a small role in it the general public misunderstanding your business model is a right of passage in this industry because many of those same people that probably made that statement also think that Spotify pays artists also thinks that ticket master sets the prices for the tickets at the artist sell themselves right of course of course and you know I think we have a responsibility to that audience whether it's fans or whether it's artists you know I think I we don't shy away from it it was interesting last night lorothal calls me and he's like mag what's going on with all this thing on Twitter and I was like well look you should read the press release first because I think it'll give you some context and then of course I'll answer any questions and that's what I mostly what I did yesterday is just like answering questions I think they're naturally like our announcements with some of our other indie distributors and indie labels didn't get the same attention so I think a lot of people just said well why didn't you announce all of your other partners well I well we did we were just a smaller company than we are today but what I when I do think is really special is I think there's something to be said that even was a tool that was first available to independent artists and it's still like still available to independent artists and it's something that a major label and a major partner wanted access to so just speaks volumes to this is a model that the independent sector has owned and has really developed so I think it's a huge complement and it's something that artists continue to double down on but we we rather do it through the work then press release or public statements I think the work should speak for itself and you know we don't want to be all talk we really want to show and highlight the work that we do talk we really want to show and highlight those stories and we love the fact that it's artists really speaking out and talking about even in their experience with even I think that that that makes me in the team feel really good right if press releases drove income directly there would be a lot of companies in this industry that would be a much stronger position but you don't have to respond to that we can pause it there I appreciate you as always thanks for coming out man thank you so much if you love listening to trappital I want to put you on to another podcast that I think you'll really enjoy it's called one song it's hosted by diallo riddle and luxury each episode unpax one iconic track they break down the original musical stems so you can hear how the song was built while also diving into the creative choices and cultural forces that shape the song if you're into how music media and culture intersect this show is very much in that way you'll hear songs you already love in a completely new way check out one song wherever you get your podcasts let's take a break for a chart metric stat of the week speaking of j-coll his song no role models from 2014 forced Hills Drive that song not only is the best performing j-coll song on streaming and is big as single to date it is one of the best streaming songs of the 2010s looking at some data on Spotify for songs that were released in 2014 the top songs are Ed Sheeran photograph Ed Sheeran thinking out loud and then j-coll no role models this is by total Spotify streams both of those songs have around 3.3 billion streams and j-colls currently has 2.8 billion streams it also has more total streams and daily streams right now than uptown funk which was the number one song on billboards 2015 year end hot 100 list it also has more than maroon 5s sugar and it is literally neck and neck right now with Taylor Swift's blank space in terms of daily streams no role models does have more total streams part of that is because Taylor Swift was late in terms of adding her music to Spotify compared to Cole and other artists but still I don't think people realize how big and how popular and how sustaining no role models is for Cole noxious for hip hop but for all songs of the entire decade on streaming let's get back to the episode thank you again to mag for coming on and joining us on this episode towards the end of the conversation there he did talk about larusel giving him a call to talk about the u-m-g and even partnership I do want to talk a little bit about larusel here if you're not familiar he is a rapper from the leo he's built up a pretty strong social media following and has gotten some big partnerships features and collaborations through his work and doing it all independently he recently signed a management deal with rock nation which will be interested to see moving forward he posted a pretty cool video of him and jz talking about their new partnership with jzc's in him as well one thing that always stuck out to me about larusel is that he would host one thing that always stuck out to me about larusel is how he handles his dtc director consumer business he hosts his own concerts in his backyard he is the definition of selling music out of the trunk but his trunk is the platform that he uses through even where he is sold albums for over $10,000 to kai reerving Gary V and they've spent that amount of money because they want to support it is very similar to that proud to pay campaign that nipsy hustle had gotten famous for when he had the $100 mix tape in 2013 and then ran it back in 2015 with $1,000 mix tape now you have larusel selling his album for $10,000 plus granted to be clear that is not the set price that he's saying he's giving people the option to pay but it just shows the continuation of that vision and what that looks like moving forward so it's been cool to see and again for a platform like even it can be a home to larusel it can be a home to j col Brent fias and future artists of all stages at universal music group as well so that'll be interesting to track moving forward now let's segue into my conversation with leo teban the CEO of duetty hope you enjoy it all right today we're joined by leo teban the CEO and co founder of duetty welcome to trappital thank you Dan thanks for having me on big fan I feel like I should start calling you the money man because every time I turn around there's a new tranche of money coming your way you announce the year with a new fund raise $200 million and it was a mix of equity, securitization, credit as well and since you've now done this a few times it'll be good to get an idea for how do you structure your business in terms of how these funds are raised but also what they go towards how do they fuel everything that you do it duetty yeah no absolutely duetty has two kind of core functions number one is that we are building a pretty sophisticated platforms a lot of data engineering and data forecasting and marketing capabilities and management capabilities to look at different catalogs right on the master side as well as on the public music publishing side focus them underwrite them invest in them and then manage them once we get involved the second piece is that we actually need funding for the acquisition itself right like we need we need resources to to affect the acquisition and pay and artists and songwriters when we when we acquire songs from them and so these are really the two big functions for what we do and so for that we really need to raise different types of capital right like when we announced the $200 million raise in January that included $50 million of equity and $150 million of that the equity funding and we've raised over a hundred millions since we started three and a half years ago is really primarily not exclusively but primarily focused on building the platform side which means investing teams investing marketing we have some great parties and a lot of other things that we do to put the world out there of what we do and the second piece that that is exclusively focused on financing the acquisition themselves and acquiring the songs and the masters and the work is dreams from creators out there would you include the credit with that piece as well yeah there's different pockets of capital that capital that are suitable for different stages of the song lifecycle so for example songs that are maybe younger right and we we are looking at songs and masters that are as the youngest two years old right which is pretty young in terms of the data that you have and your ability to focus them these are riskier right and so it's a different way to do it and so it's a different type of debt investors that can get comfortable with that type of collateral right in from their perspective and on the other side if you think about you know songs that have four or five six years and beyond of data of you know our ability to predict also maybe size come sometimes into play right and the artist profile overall then that addresses a different type of the kind of investor universe with folks that are kind of willing to maybe they're a little bit more risk of hers but frankly they're also willing to provide capital that maybe better terms right for the way they ultimately for the folks we walk with right that makes sense and especially those two groups you mentioned if you're looking at songs two to four years old that's definitely a different asset class in a song that's five to eight years old but even within those two classes those feel like very different asset classes then some of the other investment firms that are investing in back catalog that is 10 20 30 plus years old and they're often looking at deals themselves individual deals that are tens of millions of dollars so maybe you could walk through just how different the product is that you two the two types of private equity companies and firms are putting out there just given the asset classes on the surface similar but there's so different no absolutely the idea is really a company we're not a fund what does that mean it means that when you raise equity capital and as I mentioned we've raised a lot of it that money sit on our balance sheet and we can use it to hire a team and develop products and services internally that's very different than a fund when they raise equity the vast majority of that money is earmarked only for the acquisition themselves and so their ability to raise and develop and build systems and infrastructures is less so than what we have and so that goes back to kind of the answer to your question which is that the only way that you can actually do the type of deals that we do right that are as you said maybe smaller than some of these other mega funds that are out there is that you really need to have a very robust data and infrastructure that allows you to do that and also that allows you to really dig deeper efficiently right and and also kind of makes certain assumptions and kind of simplify the entire acquisition process so you can frankly do a bunch of them every month and as we we announced we're doing over 80 deals a month right now in order to kind of get to enough volume which justify kind of the size and scope of our platform I assume that a lot of that needs to be automated in some way to be able to do 80 deals a month to three deals a day can you talk about what parts of that process are more automated versus what parts of the process may still need some human touch on the due diligence side yeah absolutely I think I think first and foremost what we're not automating and what's the most important thing for us is that the conversations we're having with artists with song artists with creators are always with members of our team that have a very deep understanding of the music market and of the needs of creators right like that's that's the first touch point and we do have a pretty intense process of hand loading and of explaining what's going on at every single stage and we never want to be in a situation where the the the episode the songwriter is dealing with a bots or machines or anything like that this is a very nuanced and and and a pretty difficult process sometimes right from many different reasons and so whatever you sell a $20,000 catalog or a $2 million or a $10 million catalog we want to make sure that there's a member of our team that's talking to you and walk you through every step of the way so that part that type of the process is not automated and we we are strong believers in the human element here at the same time we have to automate a lot of other parts right and so those humans that go through our members of our team that are going going through all these different aspects and and kind of think through each and every deal they do have a lot of kind of tools at their disposal right going from even identifying the artist the songwriter's the songs that that could be relevant for the way they and what our investors kind of looking for and through the prediction analysis putting prices giving a range of different options all the way through once the acquisition actually takes place how do we make sure we collect all the all the world is that out you how do we make sure we find the right marketing opportunities for the for the songs and the masters that we're involved with and so that change and and one of your recent reports you had your music economics report but then you also co-release that new index with billboard as well one thing that stuck out you talked about the expected growth of the sub one million dollar transactions for music rights but also the sub five million dollar transactions or music rights as well and because you do a number of these deals maybe just to give the audience an idea what does a sample deal look like you already spoke a little bit about the catalog age itself but what does a sample or typical deal look like. Yeah so I would say that we've said publicly as well we've done over 11 hundred deals so far the majority of those have been with artists and songwriters and producers that decided not to sell everything they decided to maybe sell a few tracks many parts of tracks and it's really you know our I would say the typical case that we see right where we operate a really of creators that are still I would say the prime of their career right there there maybe in their 20s or 30s they're creating their out there they're doing stuff and it's really all about finding a different type of financing and marketing and support solution right which we provide as well as part of the view that we we do to really kind of help them move into the next stage in their career right so I would say that's the typical case and what we see what we see the most and with that being said the other case as rights folks with you know great tracks and and compositions from the 90s and the two 30 2000s that you know maybe do and did not achieve kind of a level of a notoriety of of of a multi multi million dollar catalog but think now is a good time to to get some equality there but the typical case as I said is off of someone who is still pretty much in the game creating and looking for and another liquidity solution and with these artists or songwriters are looking for liquidity solutions do you find like they're often evaluating duetty compared to other world multi financing options are they also looking at the next label deal creator funds do you feel like there's a common pattern in terms of if they're looking at duetty they're probably looking at this other type of opportunity. Yes I would say the sub kind of low seven figures right those folks would be probably considering duetty versus other type of financing and marketing options and so ultimately it can get to a place where you know you can do a duet deal which means that let's say you have and I'm kind of simplifying 10 tracks from a few years ago and so you can go and decide to do a duet deal and then maybe you use you sell only five tracks and you keep five and the five tracks you saw you do need to get comfortable if that's the right solution for you that you sell them in perpetuity but you're probably going to make to get a nice amount of money for it right and equally you can go and do an advance if you do an advance with with a record label or maybe with a new financing company and there's a few out there you probably need to put the entire 10 records that you have under the advance arrangement which means that should it will be maybe for a shorter time frame but you need to kind of separate yourself from the catalog from the entirety of the catalog for a number of years right so it's kind of like comparing apples to oranges a little bit and so you know I think I think that's what we're trying to do right we're trying to provide another option and another kind of point of reference for people to kind of think through as the trying to make the decision the final I would say if you compare what we do versus an advance or kind of a kind of a more pure financing deal is that we as I briefly said we invest a lot in marketing and management of the catalog once we get involved and so and why do we do that we do that frankly because it benefits us if we own something we want to promote it we want to market it we want to make sure that it's there and more and more people can can continue to listen and so and usually if you compare that to an advance or loan solution because it's shorter term whoever is giving you that loan or advance it's probably going to be less incentivized if at all to invest in the long term marketing of that record right and so that's another I think really important consideration for folks that yeah there it's a perpetuity deal which is not for everyone but the flip side is the flip side is because we're becoming long term owner of pieces of that kind of we are actually investing on our own time there's no marketing budget to anything like that to make sure that it's being promoted appropriately and given the transaction size of these deals in general is there a particular type of marketing that you lean a bit more towards whether it's performance marketing or direct response YouTube channels what does that look like for you all. Yeah exactly so I think I think you know just given the breath and the number of artists and creators we walk with first and foremost we're talking about digital first solutions and you mentioned performance marketing you mentioned YouTube channel management and a lot of other things that we do and so that that comes first right and so we're trying to figure out ways to scale and have really kind of a data driven marketing muscle right that is is spread out and can actually help a lot of folks that walk with us. To see more streams and we do that with different ways we have a ton of playlist that we run and manage and we spend a lot of time looking at what audiences would be interested in in order to build playlist that we think can do really well commercially. But we also go further than that right and we have for example a very robust reenix program whereby we actively pitch songs that are in our catalogs whether it's on the master's have on the composition side for new artists to kind of have a look at those and and potentially creator remix of course with the appropriate approvals and kind of almost a breed kind of new life and expose that particular track or composition into new all the way to the end of the process. And then we have a very successful composition into new audiences another another example that's been very successful is walking with influencers and there again it has to be very data driven because what we found is the most successful strategy is to look for those tracks that started to trend where it's on tick to a point real so other platforms and then invest very heavily very quickly with influencers and kind of spread the world. So that kind of initial trend can kind of grow to something about bigger and we've done it in multiple different occasions and it's been very very successful. And speak of influencers themselves obviously they are a channel to market the assets you own but is there any future interest on your roadmap of financing them specifically given the income streams that they have access to whether it's their own YouTube their add sense their own revenue streams that are predictable or other. Forms of multimedia entertainment that may have some similar economics to what you all currently offer with music specifically yeah. Yeah so right now the show the answer is we're not looking at any of that right I don't know what the future holds but I think in the next couple few years our focus is is pretty much music where we believe that this is a very unique and interesting kind of vertical to to specializing and we think there's a lot more to do. Before we start spreading ourselves into into other under sectors of the economy that that's our focus for now which makes sense well we are appreciate you coming on sharing this thank you very much. And that is a wrap for today thank you again to magrad regas thank you to Leo Tiban for both of you joining us on this episode thank you again to our sponsors who help make this episode possible thank you to G and Eric for everything that you do on the audio and video site to help make. Thank you for listening like we always say if there's one person you know that would really enjoy trappable and get a lot out of it then send them a link to the show word amount is still the best way to grow and we are available on all platforms and if you have a moment leave a comment leave a review that helps the algorithm do its thing and make sure that trappable reaches the right people thanks again talk to you next time.