42: Focusing your Financial Plan: Career Deep Dive (feat. Mitch Sasonoff)

Welcome to the show, I'm Gunnar Conley and on the Compounding Change podcast we talk about how small action creates big results. Here on the show I interview change makers, go getters, authors and more to give you a genuine insight into what it takes to succeed but more importantly how to live with purpose. Joining me today, Mitchell Sassinoff, a financial advisor with Northwestern Mutual Wealth Management Company and predominantly working out of their downtown delview office. In his most recent year, Mitchell was a million dollar round table qualifier. He was voted 2020 rising star of the year and is currently ranked within the top 50 advisors in the country for his tenure in the business. In his off time, he enjoys running and training for half marathons and his close friends and family call him "Beryl". His goal with working with clients is to develop long lasting relationships and friendships and his mission is simple. Be present, be authentic and add value. Today's episode is a career deep dive into what Mitchell does at Northwestern Mutual. This is definitely in the personal finance section of our podcast episodes so if you are interested in listening to more of those, we did a three part series last summer and recently interviewed Nick Riley with one day advice. Stick around to the end of this show for a preview trailer of our last career deep dive with Ed Reese. Without further ado, let's jump right in. [Music] Mitch, why do people call you "Beryl"? Thanks, Gunner. Yeah. Happy to be a part of the podcast. It's an interesting story so growing up, my brothers and close family and friends, they used to make fun of me a lot for having a fairly large chest and it's not by any means. I'm super strong or super muscular or anything like that but they started calling me "Beryl" and at first I wasn't a huge fan of the nickname but I ended up sticking. Now my close friends and family call me "Beryl" and it's just a running joke in our family. I love it. That's rather unique so that's perfect. Awesome. Tell me a little bit more about Northwestern Mutual and what brought you to the company. I started at Northwestern Mutual almost four, five years back and I think when I graduated and was looking at firms to join in the industry, I had interviewed with a lot of the major wealth management firms here in the area. Stanley, Merrill Lynch, UBS, Freestone Capital, Brighton Jones, just to name a few. It actually, how I got introduced to Northwestern Mutual was my cousin. My cousin was an intern at the time. He was still going to UW and he had made an introduction to one of our managing partners here in the area. I didn't think much of it at the time. I went in for a couple interviews and lo and behold, continued to go through the process and ended up. ended up joining the firm. That was right out of school and joined Northwestern Mutual. You obviously interviewed at a few different firms. Actually, a lot of different firms. It sounds like you have a cousin that worked there. What specifically about Northwestern Mutual? Tilt the scales for you to want to work there as opposed to any of those other firms? Good question. I think in my interview process, I think coming right out of school, I think one of the biggest deterrence when we were in the industry, when interviewing with a lot of the major banks and financial institutions here in the city, was there a lot of account minimums. I can distinctly remember the first question that I was always asked at every interview was, "Do you know five to ten people with a million dollars of money to manage?" Oh, weird. Yeah. Coming right out of school, I could probably count maybe five on my hand with people that had a million bucks in the bank or a million bucks to manage. Let alone, I don't think any of those people would have done business with me. I thought it would have been a very difficult path to go down. I think more importantly, as I got longer into the industry and the more I've started to understand the way that Northwestern Mutual operates as a company, I think one of the things that I'm really proud about is that they're a mutual company. What that means is that we don't have any shareholders. We're not a publicly traded company on any exchange. We're owned by our clients. Especially when dealing with other people's money, I think it's really important to have the clients' best interest at heart and not trying to please shareholders or stakeholders on Wall Street to that regard. Being a mutually owned company is extremely important. I'd say maybe the third part of third reason, what kind of led me to Northwestern Mutuals, they were seemingly will come like air quotes less barriers to entry. And what I mean by that is Northwestern Mutual was founded about 150, 160 years ago actually in the Midwest, so in Wisconsin, where the average income over there is somewhere between 60 to 70,000 as a household. And here in the Northwest, the average income or median income is about 170, 180,000 as a household. And so again, coming right out of school, I didn't know a bunch of people that had a bunch of money to manage right away, but at that same token, I think I wanted to make financial planning accessible to everybody that I came across regardless if they made a million bucks or if they're making 100,000 in the Midwest. No, absolutely, I like that. I like how accessible it is and to your point, Northwest, the Pacific Northwest. People make a lot more money over here. So like walk me through when you are sitting down with a client for the first time, what is the general goal of basically your job? Like what are you assisting your clients in? How are you helping them with their finances? Yeah, so I think the first kind of step or step process that we take in taking our clients through and what the process looks like is really called a discovery call or discovery meeting. Where the objective of that call is to really outline any goals, objectives, figure out what is important to our clients, but more importantly where they're at today and where they see themselves going over the next couple of years. And so our process is very unique in the sense that we don't charge for the financial planning meeting. We don't charge for the analysis that we build out. And our team is only compensated to our clients decide to work with us in any degree or some form. And so I think what makes that unique is that if at the end of that first call, we make a mutual, what we'll call a discovery that it doesn't make sense for us to get back together. Or maybe there isn't an area where we could be of resource will part ways. And if there is, you know, what we'll get back together and run an audit and analysis of the things that they're currently doing and showing them, you know, hey, if you guys continue on the same path that you're at. And some of the things that you are doing, you know, this is where it leaves you. And I think again, what's unique about that is we use that analysis and foundation to craft our recommendations and more importantly show them how we can help long term. Nice. Okay. So when you're working with a young professional, what are you kind of looking at? What are you seeing? What kind of trends all the above? So I think the first thing in working with anybody, I think is identifying a plan and having an actual financial plan. So taking a look at what benefits that might have through their employer, what accounts that they have, you know, that they've set up on their own, maybe family or friends have helped them set up with. And helping them really understand how all the different moving pieces work together. And again, to what I mentioned earlier on our call, I think financial planning stems from any goals and objectives that the client does have. And so, you know, I think everybody knows they should diversify, they should invest, they should save. But I think when comparing yourself to other people, you know, the thing that we should be comparing ourselves to is what we want to achieve or what our clients want to achieve. Not what other people want. So I think helping them understand where they're at relative to the things that they are doing and where that leaves them. I think is the first step in going through that process. Nice. Okay. So with a young person, then, you know, like all of the clients that you're working with the young professionals, would you say buying a house is something that's really high on their list of priorities? Yeah, definitely. I would say for most people that are under the age of 30, I'd say that's probably like the largest financial objective outside of, you know, saving for other things like retirement. Nice. Okay. So if I'm in that mode, then how do I balance saving for retirement and, you know, saving for obviously purchasing a house in the future? Yeah. So I think one of one of my favorite books that I've read by Stephen Covey, the seven habits of highly successful people, he always talks about thinking with the end in mind. And so I think for for a lot of people, when there is lack of clarity around goals or objectives around what it might take to be able to retire or what it might take to achieve the down payment or what it might take to achieve to send, you know, kids off to school. I think sometimes there might be this fuzzy logic of, hey, you know, we're feeling okay, just stuff and money into different accounts. And so the first step that we take with clients is identifying what, what that goal looks like to them and what they see themselves doing long term. And again, what we'll use that analysis in foundation to help craft recommendations, whether it is around buying property, whether it is around retirement. And again, I think it is that balance of having some money going to the shorter term accounts versus, you know, having money going into longer term accounts as well. Okay, so with the new client then, what is the most egregious thing that you often see in terms of managing their money? You know, I think oftentimes I'll hear, I want to retire when I'm 40 or all here, you know, hey, what about GameStop? What about other things? You know, Bitcoin I think is thrown in there a lot when when dealing with folks that are under the age of, you know, 30 I'd say and they're obviously outliers, you know, the, you know, the higher you go. But I'd say those are some of kind of the outliers or the things that we hear when dealing with folks that are under the age of 30. Okay, so it sounds like the GameStop AMC, although short squeeze, you don't advise your clients to jump into that. No, no, not at all. So earlier you were talking about how, you know, Northwestern Mutual is a mutually owned company, meaning that your, your clients technically own the company. What other aspects of Northwestern Mutual are unique and draw you toward work in there? I think one of the things that makes Northwestern Mutual extremely unique is that it's actually around like I said, 150, 160 year old company. So, you know, as you think about the history and the evolution of everything that's happened over the last 150 years, you know, you can think about the Great Depression, the World Wars, you know, the oil embargo, you know, the dot com bubble 2008, 2009 and now most recently, the pandemic. Northwestern Mutual one has been around through all of that in a state of strong company, but they're actually one of two companies currently within the United States that are triple a rated from all of the major financial strength rating institutions. And the financial strength rating institutions, they don't just rank, rank financial companies, but they rank all types of companies. And so Northwestern Mutual is one, the other company is Microsoft here here in Bellevue and in Redmond. Wow, okay, that's a fun fact for you. But, okay, so, you know, obviously we've had the pandemic there. How has that kind of like changed the way that you've assisted clients in planning for the future? Yeah, that's, that's, that's a great question. I think there was a lot of uncertainty with the pandemic in 2020. I think one of the things that people realize is that having an actual financial plan versus just an investment strategy is something that they could rely upon or that they were missing. And so, you know, we're working here at Northwestern Mutual. I think something that's unique is that we don't have any of our own investment products. So we don't manufacture any of our own investment products, but working at Northwestern Mutual, what that means is that we have exclusive access to the things that Northwestern Mutual offers. Yeah, we're not captive to anything that we use. And so, what, what that means is when we're dealing with clients and creating financial plans, we can act in a fiduciary capacity and suit, suit different clients for, you know, the different stages that they're at in life. And to that point, an interesting statistic for you is Vanguard actually did a study that in working with an advisor typically will add somewhere between three to four percent on an annual basis yet yet half of that percentage or rate of return actually comes from behavioral coaching. So I think this is really unique as we look at finances for everybody and, you know, developing financial plans for people, you know, on March 23rd, last year, about $300 billion net left the market, which was the highest and second highest from the '08 '09 crash. And so I think, you know, when we're thinking about developing clients, developing plans with our clients, you know, it's helping them think through, you know, hey, what, what does this ultimately do for our portfolios long term? What is this due to our financial plan? You know, should we be putting more money into the market? Should we be taking it out? I think having that sounding board is extremely, extremely helpful. And we use the analysis and plan that we've built for our clients to make those recommendations. Okay, so like behavioral coaching then is basically to assist them in proper decision making of when it might be the right time to buy when it might be the right time to sell. Is that kind of the right way to think about it? Yeah, I would say so. I mean, at the end of the day, my crystal ball is extremely as murky as the next person. So I don't know what the market's going to do and by no means are we trying to time the market. But I think having a financial plan in a foundation that you can rely on as it pertains to your overall strategy is something that is helpful. All right, Mitch, so tell me a little bit more about like your process, A to Z working in Northwestern, Rachel, when you have a new client. Yeah. So I think as I shared earlier, our process all starts with what is what calls like a discovery meeting or discovery call where where the primary goal and objective of meeting somebody for the first time is to outline their goals, objectives, have a clear understanding of where they are today, but more importantly, where they see themselves. And figure out what tools and strategies have they been using up until this point. And so I'd say there are really two common trends or themes that I see in meeting with people of all different circumstances, walks of life, different age groups. And the first common theme that I hear is I'll often meet somebody for the first time and they'll say, hey, Mitch, I'm feeling all good. I'm feeling all set. I'm actually all taken care of. And more often than not, when we dive a little bit deeper into this, this sentiment, we typically will find it's a result of a comparison. So, you know, hey, maybe Gunner is doing better than peers or family at this stage in life, or maybe he is doing better than co-workers at this stage in life. And sometimes the troubles with comparisons and obviously with Instagram and social media these days, it's very easy to compare yourself to other people, but it doesn't outline what you're trying to achieve when you want to achieve it. You know, just as you know, you bought real estate property and other people have other financial goals, you know, your goals shouldn't be tied to what other people are doing. And so, I'd say the first kind of common trend we'll see is that people often think they're all good or they're all set relative to comparisons that they make, you know, whether it's peers or on social media. And so, really, we want to help clients understand what's important to them, but more importantly, how they're tracking towards their own goals. So, I'd say that's the first common trend and then I'd say the second common trend or theme that we see is that people have what I call as like a fragmented financial picture. And so, you know, like I mentioned earlier, everybody knows they should be saving, making investments, utilizing the 401K, you know, they have some company benefits here, they have some accounts over here. Maybe they have some real estate off on the side, but they don't really have a clear understanding of how everything ties together and how everything is either working to or against the common objective of whatever it is that's important to them. And so, our primary goal in working with clients in that degree is helping them not only identify any gaps overlaps or inefficiencies as it pertains to their current plan, but helping them understand how all of the accounts work together. And whatever it is that they're trying to achieve, you know, thinking again with the end in mind. From your experience, what is one of the most powerful investment vehicles that a young person should be taking advantage of right now? I think one of the most powerful vehicles that a person should be utilizing currently if they can is the Roth IRA or to that degree if their company offers a Roth 401K provision. And I know you talked a little bit about this on the podcast or the previous podcast, but with everything going on with the stimulus checks, the amount of debt that the United States is in, we'll get into this a little bit later, but we think that taxes are going to go up. Again, we don't have a clarity around what they're going to go to or if they are, but there's a high degree or high certainty that they may go up in the future. And so getting money into accounts at lower tax rates today and then having it grow without tax for the rest of your life and being completely accessible tax free is extremely powerful when when playing the long term tax game. Right. So for the purposes of this show, if you hadn't already listened to some of the previous stuff that we've taken care of or that we've released. Obviously, the Roth IRA is nice because it's in a retirement investment vehicle where you can you can invest money at the current taxable rate basically because it's already been taxed money that you have it's already been taxed you can invest it now and then it becomes tax tax free when you deduct it when you're in retirement as opposed to the 401K, which you don't penny taxes on that money and you said, you know, you invest it right now. And then when you take it out, you pay taxes on that at whatever tax rate that you're currently at. So the from my understanding the industry kind of expertise and opinion on this whole thing is that you should probably take advantage of anything with the word Roth in front of it because if you're paying taxes on it now, you're likely paying less because when you are retired, especially if you're starting in your 20s, you're most likely going to be in a much higher tax bracket. Yes, and no. So I think great points that yes, you know, today if you forecast yourself making more money down the road, you will most likely be in a higher tax bracket. And so getting money into those accounts with paying your current tax rate today and then it growing without tax and being tax free the rest of your life is important. But I think one of the unique distinctions with the 401K is that when you pull money out of a traditional 401K or traditional IRA in retirement, the tax rate or the taxable rate that you're going to be owing at that given rate is dictated on how much you're pulling out. And how much the government says that tax rate is at that given date in the future. And so the trouble with with a lot of that right now or with what we see and where we see tax rates going is that I don't know if you're going to be in a 40% tax bracket or 50% tax bracket. The highest tax bracket in the United States was in the is in the 40s and it was right around 90%. And so there was a joke, you know, it was like, why would you work past a certain amount because you're giving, you know, 90 cents away to the government and you're keeping 10. So I think again, playing that long term tax game is really important today, but also, you know, having a plan around what, you know, having a plan and understanding where you should be putting money today to be most efficient. It is helpful. Yeah, and so we, you mentioned it there earlier, Roth 401K. And I've heard of this before, obviously in my profession, we're not offered 401Ks because I'm a 1099 contract to the employee. It's completely different thing. So I'm shaky on my understanding of the Roth 401K from my limited knowledge. Typically it is offered, but you have to opt, opt into it. Is that kind of how that works? Yeah, so it's typically offered, typically offered with, with most companies. If, if you don't know, I would check like the benefits or I would check with HR. But the underlying investments inside of your 401K as it pertains to company benefits would most likely be the exact same. The distinction there would be if the money is either taxed today in going into the traditional 401K or if it is not, excuse me, if it's taxed today going into the Roth 401K or if it's not taxed today going into the traditional 401K. Got it. So when you're working with clients, are you basically focusing on whatever is best for them and when you're making a recommendation on whether to go traditional or Roth 401K? Yeah, and I think too that that's also why like long term tax planning can be helpful in having a plan in a foundation built out because for a lot of clients, you know, here in Seattle or in Bellevue that do make over 140,000, they can't use a Roth IRA. And so, you know, depending on income levels, you know, we need to think through, does it make sense for them to be paying, you know, at the 30, 35% tax bracket to get money into a Roth 401K today or doesn't make more sense to be strategic, you know, take the tax deduction on the traditional 401K and then save that more money or save that money more efficiently moving forward. So that gets into long term tax planning and Roth conversions, which we could get to it a later session session, but yeah, it's helping clients identify, you know, where they're at with their income, but more importantly where they see themselves, you know, over the next 5, 10 years and helping them make a decision on, you know, what's best for them currently. Nice. Okay, so it is tax season. So it's kind of a topic on everybody's mind when you are assisting clients, what are some of the current trends in tax law, obviously we have a new administration here federally, same, same governor obviously here in Washington, but what are you kind of seeing in terms of taxes, you tax laws and regulations. So, you know, I'm definitely not a CPA, so I don't help. Yeah, caveat, caveat, I'm not a CPA, my brother is. So we have a CPA in the family. Transparenly, we don't do any tax filings. I mean, obviously Northwisher Mitchell has all the financial documents that we send the clients at the end of the year, but one of the new taxes that's going to be coming out here in 2022 is a new Washington long term care tax. And in transparently not a lot of people are familiar with it. It was on the ballot in 2019, but this is a hot topic for a lot of high income earners here in the state of Washington in specific that we're helping educate around. Okay, what is that? What did you said long term care tax? How does that work? So, starting on January 1st of 2022, Washington will be the first state in the country to implement a state funded long term care program. And I guess for all of the listeners, what long term care is is it's needing assistance with the daily activities of living. So, whether that is bathing, dressing, eating, walking. It's needing assistance typically with two or three out of those major major daily activities of living. And one of the reasons that the tax is going into effect is Washington, I believe within within the next five years is expected to spend about $4 billion a year in long term care assistance for individuals. So, what it is is it's a 0.58% payroll deduction from all wages and W2 wages. So, for individuals in the tech world, it's salary, it's bonus, it's stock compensation. And so roughly it's about $5,600 bucks per every $100,000 that you make. And I guess the unique thing about this tax is that one, it is subject or it's not capped at any percentage. So, it could go up in the future. But there's a limited opt out window for when individuals can opt out of this tax. Is there a specific income limit that makes you ineligible to use that benefit? 0.58% payroll tax applies to every W2 employee in the state of Washington. And you're automatically enrolled starting January 1st of 2022. The reasons that clients are choosing to opt out is depending on income and length until, you know, quote unquote, you would be, you know, let's say using long term care or needing long term care help. If you're not here in the state of Washington or if you haven't invested the actual benefit, you would be ineligible to actually claim any of that benefit. So, hopefully that's making some sense. Yeah, yeah. So, basically you're saying that it might be a good idea to opt out if you don't plan on living here in Washington for the rest of your life, essentially. That too. But I think also, you know, again, for the average, we'll call it like W2 family, you know, here in the state of Washington making somewhere between, you know, 150 to maybe 250,000. That's a lot of tax each and every year between now until they decide to stop working. And the thing is the tax could go up as well. So right now it's at 0.58%, but if the tax goes up to, you know, 1% that that could be a fair amount of tax dollars moving forward in the future for the family. Gotcha. Okay. Well, that's pretty good to know. You probably run into scenarios where people maybe don't have a plan and they think they do have a plan and they think that they kind of have things figured out. Yeah, I'd say I often will run across people that have have an investment plan that they don't have a financial plan, which is clearly articulating and in helping them understand how everything is working together, you know, zooming out 30,000 foot overview. And so to, to, can I guess to answer the first question that you asked, which was what does the process look like that first meeting is identifying goals and objectives, you know, where they're at, where they see themselves going. And if it makes sense to get back together for a second meeting that that's when we'll run an audit and analysis of the things that they're currently doing showing them, hey, if you stay on the same path, this is where this leaves you. And if you were to work together with our team and implement the recommendations, this is how things would look differently. And so I think that's a very eye opening process for clients and for individuals that maybe aren't do it yourself first or even that individuals that are do it yourself first, but it helps provide an overall foundation for everything that they're doing financially. I like that one of the things that I have come to realize, especially as I've gotten more busy with work and hobbies and stuff like that is that just because you probably could figure out how to do something doesn't mean that you should be the one that knows and becomes the expert on it. You know, you mentioned DIYers there do it yourself first, I'm sure you run into that a lot with finance and you know investments where people they want to be an armchair expert with it, but on the same token, it's probably a lot better for their long term strategy to allow somebody that's in it every single day to kind of assist them and point them in the right direction. I would agree and I think that applies to virtually every professional career path. I mean, I could probably learn how to buy and sell homes just like you do, but transparently that's not my wheelhouse or I could probably learn how to clean my own teeth, but I'm not a dentist right. Exactly. Yeah, I agree. I think having having a team or having somebody that that's in it every day and helping educate you around a lot of the landscape and the changes that are happening in the industry is important and as new things come up and evolve. I think again, as you get busy as you start a family and you have kids, I think you know one of the things that you know people aren't talking about finances at the dinner table on on Friday night, it's you know, hey, are we getting little Johnny off to talk to practice the next morning. So I agree. I like that. I like that. Okay, to kind of close out here, what kind of advice would you give somebody in their early 20s? Let's just say like they're graduating university and they are getting their first job. What should be one of the very first things that they do in terms of financial planning, perhaps without just speaking to you, let's say like I do it yourself or like what should they do immediately? I think if you're working for any company that offers some form of retirement benefits, I think it's first understanding what benefits you have and how they work. So if it's you know putting 5% of your income to get a 5% match, I think that's the first thing that you should look at is what what free money is on the table for you. And if you dive a little bit deeper into that, you know, understanding if you have things like a Roth provision or a Roth 401k with your company benefits, I think that's kind of the first step. And the most common thing that people will look to, I think other other basic or other kind of fundamental building blocks of planning is one making sure you have an emergency fund. This is really more of an emotional thing than it is, I'd say like a mathematical thing. I typically will tell clients or recommend clients have somewhere between three to six months of their fixed living expenses. So not salary or net income, but what they typically will spend on a monthly basis just so that hey, if something comes up financially or if they get sick or hurt. And they can't go to work for a couple months that they have some funds to make sure that the bills are paid and the lights are staying on. I would say there's probably like the second thing. And then really depending on where you're at in your life, whether you have kids, whether you're married, whether you're single, I think really, really depends on kind of is the next step. But I think first and foremost, it's identifying, hey, what company benefits do you have? Make sure you have an emergency fund. And then once that and I'd say a budget is really in check, I think developing a plan around your goals and what you're trying to achieve when would be the next step that I would take. I like that. The one of the things that you phrase there was that it's more of an emotional thing. And then also, you know, I've heard the safety net millions of times be used as an example of something that you should have in case you lost your job. But getting injured is something that I've never thought of and I should probably kind of keep that in mind because you know, at least for my job, I know that if I were to hurt my legs or something, and it wouldn't be so easy for me to show property that might actually seriously affect my ability to produce income. And I got a mortgage I got to pay. So I will definitely keep that in mind. Yeah. And I think too to, you know, like with with like an emergency fund, a lot of people have heard the term high interest sealed savings account. I'm a fan of it. Again, it's nothing that's going to knock your socks off from like a rate of return standpoint. But you know, a lot of the big banks, Wells Fargo, you know, Bank of America chase their savings accounts offer very, very minimal rates of return and with where interest rates are at right now, I don't forecast them going up much higher. So if you can use a high interest sealed savings account in addition to having a separate account would be another thing that I would would look to if if you're looking to maybe optimize your emergency fund. I like it. I like it. Well, thanks a lot, Mitch. I appreciate you coming on the show. Thanks, Gunner. It was awesome. Awesome being here. Thanks again for listening to another episode of the compounding change podcast, the number one podcast for young adults navigating the professional world. Now let's take a look at a preview trailer of our episode with Ed Reese. That's episode 38 of the show. Do what you want to do right now. Just do it. Just go. It might be wrong. Just go. Right. What I see are too many 20 somethings that are afraid to do it or don't think it'll be successful enough or think about what their parents want or what their friends think they should be doing all of that. It will likely take you longer to get an observable measure of success externally. But you'll find what you want. What what you're all about much faster. And I know so many people that never went down that path and it's one of those things and if you don't go down it early, you're unlikely to ever go down. You know, once kids come along, once you're married and you have kids in a mortgage, good luck taking those kind of chances. You know, so when you're when you're in your 20s, you have this opportunity to give it a run. Right. And I feel so grateful that that I did like I I genuinely thought I wanted to teach until I taught I genuinely thought I wanted to be a camp director until I was one. I genuinely thought a lot of things I tested them out. Right. And it wasn't that being a teacher or a camp director or a tour guide in Alaska or anything is wrong. It's just I found out their elements of it that weren't right for me. Once again, that's episode 38 of the compounding change podcast. If you haven't already, please subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening to us right now. And if you're feeling extra nice today, please write us that review on the Apple podcasts app. This is how more great listeners like yourself will hear of the compounding change podcast community. And we couldn't do it without our faithful listeners. You can find me on Instagram @realtorgunner linked in by searching Gunner Thai Conley Twitter @gunner Thai Conley until next time. Thanks again.