[Music] This podcast is a production of the Brickyard Network, an extension of the Archie Bray Foundation for the Ceramic Arts. To find out more about our lineup of Ceramic Podcasts, visit BrickyardNetwork.org. [Music] Hey, this is Erin with Cornell Studio Supply located in the gem city of Dayton, Ohio. As a proud sponsor of this episode and the Brickyard Network, we are happy to help you with all your pottery and ceramic sculpture needs by providing the best customer service and world-class workshops. Visit CornellStudioSupply.com for 20% off the largest ceramic book selection of all time. At Cornell Studio Supply, we are owned and operated, for potters, by potters. Hola, it's Rose. I wanted to give you a quick update on what the Ceramic Materials Workshop team has been working on in the workshop. If you haven't heard yet, we started translating our popular online courses into other languages, starting with Spanish. Over the next year, all our courses will be available in Spanish, but right now you can jump right in and start with the middle glazes or self-guided crystal ball. To find out more, head on over to CeramicMaterialsWorkshop.com. Hasta luego, we hope to see you soon! Hello, my name is Kathy King and welcome to the FLEX-SAKE podcast. I'm coming to you from the Harvard Ceramic Program in our fair city, Austin, Massachusetts. I'm here with Rose and Matt Katz of the world famous Ceramic Materials Workshop and they are ready to answer your burning questions about clay and glaze. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of FLEXED UP, where we talk to makers about what they do and how they suffer because one thing is true in Ceramic, no matter how good you are, how much experience you have, we have all FLEXED UP in our studio. Our esteemed guest today is Meredith Host. Hello, Meredith. Thanks for having me. I'm Meredith. Hello, hello. So we're so thrilled that we talked you into this. Lourd you into our dark 10 of despair and sadness. Listen, I was Instagram messaging. I was, you know, gonna get on Facebook for this one. How are you doing? I am good. Happy New Year. I don't know what is gonna air, but it's orange. Probably in the New Year. It's not gonna air in last year. I'm confident. So I feel great with what I just said. Okay. So Meredith, pretend we're on a dating profile of ceramics. Can you tell us in the listeners like just a brief description of, you know, what cone temperature you're firing, sculptural or functional kind of give us an idea of your magic that you make. Yeah, I basically work in the mid range. So cone five six right on sister. I in the past have worked with a mid range porcelain. And then in the last couple of years, switched over to like different speckled stonewares. So more cone five versus the six. And as far as like glazes and whatnot go like I work in the functional realm. So thrown and slip cast pieces mainly thrown right now just because my slip cast body was the porcelain stuff. And I use a lot of commercial glazes, which is kind of a product of a excuse me. I use a lot of under glazes and like printmaking stenciling kind of processes on the surface. So my glazing is kind of unlike, you know, a liner glaze, but then also some clear. Clear is very important to me. And that's kind of my main thing today, I guess, when I was asked to do this, I really thought, you know, there's always stuff that happens in the studio. And I wave my angry fists in the air and say, I'm supposed to be a professional. So are we. I mean, I suppose to be. And you know, I do realize it happens to everyone, which is very, you know, nice to know. But I haven't really had a total flux up where it was just like, can't figure it out and can't, can't move on. I've always, well, actually, maybe that's a life. What are you just saying about your glaze? I don't know. Do you want me to launch into it? I got to say, you know, first of all, we have no, we don't shame commercial glazes here. We love everything process. We've accepted Kathy is one of our own. Our standards are low. No, no, no, but it sounds like there's some trauma in there. So what, would you share your trauma with the world? Let's talk about some glaze screwing up. Actually, this is, it's kind of fun that Kathy, you're here and I'm talking about this because you came way back when, at least this before the internet had a bunch of glaze recipes for all of us try a visiting artist to RIT school for American crafts where I was doing a post back sort of residency. And you brought this whole pamphlet that you drew on and made it super fun with your glaze recipes and, you know, using under glaze and what clear it would work with these stains. And it was a game changer for me, like legit. I was in the process of moving from content reduction to my baby step to content oxidation to try to get some brighter colors. And it helped sort of embrace that cone six for me and launch into that, which has been my life since. So thank you. No, so proud. And the glaze on there that I used for years successfully was kittens clear. I know me too. Keep going. I love that kittens or I did. And I was in the middle of a big project where I was making like a hundred plus plates that were for this wall installation for this museum show that was at the same time as in Seika. It was like a group thing. So I was just this one huge like 24 foot wall piece that I had all these plates in this pattern. I ran out of my kittens like midway and I was like, well, mix it up like no big deal. I had the same bags, same everything and all the sudden. I mean, I did actually test it, which was I'm shocked. I actually did because I was like, this is my workhorse. I know it works. Right. I said it. And it was crazy. Cloudy looked completely not like what I anticipated. Wow. And I was like, Oh, no, I have like 60 more plates for this thing. So I kind of at that point underestimated the ability to test places when you are not in an academic atmosphere or like a residency or somewhere like an art center that has a full glaze kitchen. So it kind of felt like I am in trouble because I have a deadline. So I got to go commercial, I think. And I did. So I went with Amico HF 9 Zingfree Clear, which is amazing. And works. And honestly, I haven't left it since the incident. I also, but I'm also always searching for that like elusive clear that I can that is stable. Zingfree doesn't craze. And also, you know, isn't cloudier bubbles in there. And so, I don't have been stuck in the commercial round because I can't really test. So literally, or you know, I just, you know, buying all those materials just to make little tests that may not work. Wow. Did you? I'm really interested in that because I still use kittens clear, but it's been, you know, revised and changed. And and crazy was the problem that I ran into. But it never went cloudy for me. I mean, on glazy so many people have revised that glaze as well. So did you ever find out what was cursed about that bucket? No. And I read, I was like, okay, I must have flux something up with this mix. You know, and so I did it again. Not the same deal. And I was like, I have to wash my hands of this place. I'm done. No, luckily, I burn it. I did mix them up for the community college that I work out. Slide it under the table. You guys can deal with that. And I was like, actually, I'm going to do it.
it was a little bit better. You know, it's still a little cloudy. I wouldn't say it's crazy, but it's kind of a little bubbly. And it before wasn't. So at any time I see someone using like a mid-range clear that looks good over under glazes, I'm like, "You're not." Yeah, yeah. We have a mutual friend, Shandra Debuse, another amazing potter, and she had told me, not I can't remember where we were, but she was like, "Oh, you should just use the pink stuff. The Amico low fire. That works great at Cone Six as well." Shandra didn't tell me that, so now I'm a little I think it was Shandra told me. I don't know. But anyway, yeah. I just like calling it the pink stuff. I know, right? That's like that chicken nugget pink stuff, right? No. You're telling the story. We hear all the time, which is everybody assumes that a clear is going to be easy. And we have one of our classes is all research projects where students come in and they can tweak. We teach them how to tweak glazes. And I always say the three hardest glazes to work on in this class. Number one is a tomato red. Number two is a crystalline glaze. And number three is a clear gloss. Because you see every single flaw. You see every single variation. You see glazes that are sensitive to thickness and all of those problems. That, you know, the number one, I always say, everybody go and look at your clear gloss, hold it up at an off angle at the light and look at it. And you will see waves and pits that you never knew were there. And you will weep silently to yourself because it's so exhausting. We're not silently. Yeah. The kittens is an interesting recipe. What was it that you did like about that one at the time? Was it the way it would deal with the under glazes? Was it easy to apply? Yeah, I think I got really used to applying it. So I kind of knew I typically brush my clear glaze. So kind of helps fill in some of the areas because of the different layers of screen printing or like stenciling. I find a dip sometimes makes air pockets in those like edges. But I don't know, I got really used to just applying it and knowing exactly how much it needed. And it was super crystal clear. Like not, you know, I didn't instable. I didn't really want and I still don't really want pulling through color with the under glazes. I don't know, I didn't have that cloudy or bubble at all inside. And just change. Yeah, I was so forgiving. I mean, for the most part. And I should mention too that that glaze is the originally it's the Val Cushing will last a night clear from the Val Cushing handbook. And I was in grad school and we were talking about a jerk visiting artist who had named all their glazes after themselves and wouldn't share any recipes with us. So my friend and I decided to name it something and her grandmother's nickname for her was kitten. So that's where I came from. I don't love that. It would be funny if people started calling this glaze that had me king all this time together. I had no idea you had named that glaze. Oh yeah, yeah. Three in the morning. Three in the morning at University of Florida. Yeah. That is funny. My legacy. And now Meredith is ruined it. Ruined it. She just entered you and Val Cushing. Oh my gosh. That's I'm shocked. I prefer the kitten's name for sure. We'll talk to Amico maybe. It'll go for it. It's fine. Doesn't have quite ring to it. Right. Exactly. For that that that haziness that you see and it's a problem with clears is what we call phase separation. And phase separation is is possible in all glazes. It's worse a little bit in cone six glazes. But what happens is you literally form two different compositions of glass and one of them is opaque. And it's that same effect that makes floating blues all streaky and cool. That's exactly that same condition. But in a clear you can get it if the silica levels go a little bit too high. And it sort of makes that phase separation happen. So everything get like it looks milky or hazy. And that becomes a big problem. It's a pretty simple fix. You just need to if you did want to test you take the silica levels down. And that's it. It's just the flint. That's all it takes is just keep make a series of tests. We take the flint levels down. It's got a lot. This recipe's got 30 almost 33% silica. So there's a lot of room. But for for a clear like if it solves your problems as long you know with with us with mixing glazes it's always the cost question. Yeah. Well that's part of the issue right. Like I'm like well this one works great. This commercial glaze however it is not affordable. I use a lot of it right. And so ultimately like I do mix my liner glazes. I have a glaze that I kind of you know found a recipe in grad school and like revamped a lit like a little bit added some like zirco packs or whatever. And it's my toilet bowl white glazed that was my liner that I still use. And then you know a few other the EM satin base with stains like that's currently what I'm using for liner glaze. So I do mix stuff and it is you know cost effective when you know it's going to work and you buy what you need and not have to like have a whole glaze kitchen per se you know or you know chemical lab. So I don't know I feel like I know that testing's involved but I want something just to be like here's the new cone six clear that's amazing. Yeah that's a little bit trickier because there's so many variables out and play of how people use it and what clay body they're using it on and how thick and everybody's got different interpretations of even what a layer is like you said you're brushing your brushing kittens were you are you adding anything for brush ability or you're just doing the straight recipe. No I was just doing the straight recipe it wow. Brushed pretty well. I don't know I know complaints from me from that one. I don't know that that's actually pretty crazy because you know the whole difference between quote unquote brushing glazes and dipping glazes is usually just adding CMC because CMC is the reason why it makes it brushable is that what it's actually doing is that it's keeping the bisqueer from absorbing the water and so like you know like everybody's had that glaze in their life where you're like oh you dip your brush in there and you drag it across the bisqueer it just dries up before you finish one brush stroke and that's because the bisqueers soaking up the water and CMC basically holds the water in the glaze so you could just keep brushing and brushing but kittens has a bunch of gursy boring in it and gursy boring has some bentonite and things that help make it a little bit more brushable but I'm impressed that that was brushable without any CMC or any additions. Yeah I think I did add there was probably 2% bentonite also in there. Yeah. I also with my like porcelain stuff like I found I could not glaze in one day so I was lining letting it sit overnight and I called the like apparatus in my studio the fan vortex where I would put it in the back shoe rack shelf and then have fans from all different directions blasting them all and then I could glaze the outsides with the clear and I would still do that after kittens failed me you know with the commercial glaze I still would have to do interior one day exterior the next so wow. Interesting. What what temperature are you visking to? Yeah that's my question. Wow with that porcelain it was 04 which maybe was a little I don't know it helped with pinholing and then my that combed five like the speckled stonewares I'm doing like 08 and they both would require the overnight drying the stoneware doesn't it's all the porcelain that I would have to really base. That's what I was wondering. Crawling and you know stuff just popping off the outside. Well but and what you're what that is really facing is the huge problem that sort of most people are ignoring which is the absorption of your bisqueer and how glazes apply based on absorption of your bisqueer so like why you have to do the drying step is because you saturated the bisqueer during the first step and then it doesn't have the same absorption when you go to the outside so the same glaze will literally apply differently on one side or the other and like a lot of the problems you know that you're getting on the porcelain is porcelain said to have very high absorption rates so you'll get a lot of like thick applications and crawling it's basically always a thickness problem no matter what people say it's a thickness issue. You see an under glazed crawls it's also a thickness issue. Yes that happens with my black if I like on rims and things and I was I brought that up before like I was one.
wondering if I'd burnished it, you know, by handling it too much. Go ahead, man. Well, rims, let's get serious about rims. Rims are a huge, oh, can they just got set? Oh my God. This is why we need a video podcast and get some Kathy's face. Cause I get excited about talking about glazing rims. I think that's all sad. No, rims are a huge problem because we have to talk about how what we call the aspect ratio, which is the volume of clay that can absorb water versus the surface area that it has to cover. And rims are a huge problem because it's, you've got exposure on the inside of a mug, the outside of the mug and the upper rim, but you only have a very limited amount of bisque where that can absorb water. So it saturates very, very quickly and you'll tend to get inconsistent coatings on those rims unless you dry it carefully or, you know, sort of stack extra layers on the rim if you're brushing or anything like that. And so yeah, rims can be a huge, huge challenge. But no, to the, to the under glazes, yeah, absolutely. And under glazes, you know, they're really, their variations on a slip or an on go, depending on how you want to get with that, with just like a ton of stain in them to get to that color. And cause it's essentially a slip like, well, with any ceramic material, we have shrinkage issues and the more something shrinks and the thicker it is, the more it's going to tend to pull away. And so with those under glazes, yeah, you have to be careful of that layering and they all change from batch to batch and someone will be thicker and someone will be thinner and getting them where you want them is trained. And you use a lot. Like, I mean, that's what we really haven't touched on. It's like you are a crazy, amazing decorator and you're, you're using a bit of everything. Yeah, I, I do love my under glazed. Thank you, Amico velvet. Yeah, and I'm like the brighter the better I want saturated gumball colors, bring it. Yeah. And I'm not using them in like a watercolor painterly way. I am like making them as opaque and bold as possible. So, you know, there's certain ones that I can get away with two layers, but a lot of them are three layers. And sometimes I, you know, it's a rare occasion. I think when I mentioned them crawling, it sounded like it happened all the time, but it's just a random piece in the kiln. Well, just one will just, you can tell that the under glazed kind of pulled and there's just this bare spot and it's ugly and I will try to patch because I'm all about layering. So, you know, put another glaze over it or I'm going to dammit. And you're applying that at leather hard, yes, Meredith? Yeah, leather hard. And then yeah, they're all bisc'd on. And I try to on the under glazed before he lays it. Correct. Pro level advice. If we've never said that before, bisque or under glazed as people, it will make your application better. Oh, yeah, I've been known to like if I realize it's something else, like a piece needed something more under glazed, I'll rebiscate before I glaze. Cause it's a testify. I hate that I have to rebisc, but I know it's going to be way better in the long run to do. It will make your glaze application so much better. And all of the problems that people see, if like, oh, the glaze isn't really coating on the under glazed and, you know, it gets really inconsistent, bisque, your under glazed and things will go on better. It, there can still be variation, but. And I found like with a couple of colors, like, um, it, okay, this is not a technical term, but I feel like it like eats up the glaze like I have to do thicker coats on certain colors. Or else it will be kind of dry in that area, which is odd, but. Yeah. Like the more refractory color, like the pinks and the yellows, that damn teddy bear brown. I don't use that teddy bear brown. Well, no, I don't know. Now. Wait, talk, talk to me about this. I'm not sure. So you're, you're saying that some of them are getting better when thicker that they're just that refractory? Like, so, so chartreuse, for example, it's just straight chartreuse. Or if I use it when mixing other colors, I usually, so I can get away with two coats of under glazed with the chartreuse because it's, doesn't necessarily change anything. It's pretty opaque at two coats. But when I glaze it, I usually, if I have like a chartreuse dot, I, after I glaze normally, I will put another blob of glaze on top of that chartreuse dot because for some reason, it always is thinner. And I mean, it's probably absorption, right? Or something, I don't know. But if I don't put that little extra on there, it gets kind of a drier, rougher surface on just that particular color. Is it the under glaze that has a rougher surface or it, the glaze when you go over it? The glaze is like thinner. The glaze it feels thinner. Yeah. And like, so it kind of creates, you know, not like a fully glazed surface that's kind of rough. Yeah. I mean, I haven't heard of glaze eating under glazes, but, you know, it's happening. So yeah, totally happens. What I said, not technical. I used to call who lights glaze pearls. So there you go. I don't know. Those sound better than who lights. He loves those little glaze curls. I mean, I don't love them, but I like it. Okay. So there's a couple of reasons why that could be happening. You different, different, you know, like we said that the under glazes are really just stains in some sort of suspension. And definitely stains have such different chemistries. It's unbelievable. I was like, oh, it's just a stain, but like there are different ways that they get to stain compositions. And some of them are more refractive than others. So that is one possibility that the stain is refractory. And then that is interacting with the glaze a bit and not melting it. But you said with two coats, you got enough of a coating with it. So you got a good color coat with two, but it just won't put the glaze on or the glaze won't stick to it. No, that all the time. So that's an interesting variable because that goes back to, you know, one of the things talking about why it's so important to bisque your, your, your under glazes on is because, right, the quality of your glaze application is based on the absorption rate of your bisque. So if you use one clay body and you bisto one temperature, it all has the same absorption rate. Well, the second you put an under glaze on, it's a slip. And that's a different clay, which has a different absorption rate. Okay. And so the thing that people miss is like why you tend to get like thin coatings on under glazes is generally because that's got a different absorption rate. So it's like drawing less water in less glaze to it to that case. So that's one possibility. And that's generally what happens. And when you bisquit, it more normalizes the absorption rate between the under glaze and play body. But there is a chance, the fact that you say that it's short truce, I think I have short truce here. I have to look at it and profiling. But that I'm pretty sure that that is a chrome based color. And that is refractory. And that may be the problem of whether or not the refractor. Let's see, short truce is a 10 vanadium chrome. There you go. And that that that could just be drying out. I actually, I should say I look at Corley correction. I am looking at the sharp, the stain sold as short truce from Mason. I cannot say whether Amico is using that same stain for their short truce, but we're good. Translare. So yeah, that's interesting because yeah, that chrome, chrome is refractory. Chrome, you know, we always talk about so many materials or fluxes. Chrome is the opposite. Chrome raises your temperature and vanadium in there doesn't help either. So that's fascinating. But yeah, absolutely that extra layer, that extra dip, the extra dots, watch out everybody for your under glazes because it's a trap. Wait. Getting those inconsistent coatings, getting those inconsistent coatings is a real thing that everybody's like, oh, the under glazed brush is so easily. And I just, I just, you know, slapped my glaze on like I did my painting. And then I just glaze right on it. And they're really, again, people don't think about. We assume that just because you can brush it on and it's sold like, oh, it'll all work together and like, well, yeah, it won't fall off. And it'll be a nice bright color, but so much of the problems that we see with under glazed painting and then putting a glaze coat on top is those variations in application. And that really can be, can be a huge problem. So when you biscuit it, it'll, it'll solve a lot. Not everything. It'll solve a lot. And thinking of your design aesthetic, one, I was just thinking about one of the reasons I fell in love with Meredith Hose to rigidly was at that time. And I don't know if this is still applicable. You had a giant toilet paper collection of different, because you were studying the patterns. Yeah, all the patterns and the dots come from my collection of toilet paper and paper towel patterns. So, yeah, everything based in the polka dot really. And I mean, just last week I found a new sample for the collection. Nice. I don't know. I mean, I probably have 200 plus random paper products in bags.
Like really? Do you feel have it all? Oh yeah, I can't. I can't rid of that. I know. Right? I just spray that. That's to be a display wall. That would be fun. I feel like I need a like grant to do that or something. It's a money to frame that stuff. Well, the wild part is like you're looking at all, you know, white on white, you know, or you know, essentially it's just white. And then you turn it into like this explosion of color and layering and you know, texture on occasion. Like the change from something like a femoral throwaway into something permanent. And then also this like color change. I don't know, a lot of time people ask, "Do you ever get contacted from the companies?" And I'm like, "No." And I, you know, they're like patent stuff. I'm like, "Well, I mean, what I found is like if a dot is just slightly like an eighth or sixteenth of an inch different, it's a whole different pattern." And I'm doing two rounds of like retracing. So I'm like, "I think I'm okay. I'm in good faith. I'm okay." So that, that brownie sponsorship isn't going to happen then. I can rename all the patterns so that, you know, I kind of, I know some of the brands, but not all of them because when you find them at like a restaurant, you don't know what they're using. But I do rename them. So they're usually, you know, it's like dot dot circle or dot dot bus. Use dot dot in front of every other, you know, word just to kind of help title things and know what I'm looking for. Yeah. Definitely legally defensible. I think, I think we need to go out to a restaurant with Meredith because she could look at the napkins and we can flip over the plates. It'd be an interesting conversation. Yeah, for sure. And then I'm also doing other layers on top of, you know, the glaze with decaling of those patterns as well. And I don't know we have time, but one kind of flux up with a decal. And this was not my doing. This was the kill. Oh, of course, of course, go on. Us at the point. I didn't know until I opened and I was like, how man the power went out, you know, open it up and the it had cut just as my cover coat on all the decals was burning out. So they had this like weird like cola root beer looking film on the surface where their cover coat was. You could see my cut lines. And the decal was still there, but it had caught it right at that moment. And I'm like, oh, you know, luckily I was able to salvage it. I acetone it off and re decaled it fired. But it was the weirdest moment to catch, I guess. In a firing and my shock when I opened the killer, I was like, what the hell happened? I don't use brown. What are you using for your decals? I get them printed now from a company in California, art decal enterprises. They're screen printed. So the cover coat does burn out completely unlike some of the digital ones. And I know as I'm getting one color, I'm not doing anything photographic. So it has worked well for me. You don't have to be crazy careful with cutting them because that edge usually disappears. But I mean, the amount of decals I still have from each batch I've ordered is kind of wild. And I spend jokingly say, but maybe it's true I spend half my life cutting out decals. Yeah, and storing them all and making sure that, you know, summer when I ordered like 10 years ago that I'm still working on, you know, and then updating certain patterns get used more. But, you know, there is a shelf life, I guess. Like I also keep them kind of in sealed up and with like those silica gel packets to absorb. Oh, that's a great tip because I've had them dry out. That's a great tip. I also do that with my under glazed tissue transfers. I keep them in like ziploc containers. You know, like kind of like a low bin so that they're not folded. And I put those packets in there too. That helps. Meredith, I think we've come to today as you're doing everything right. It's just life getting you down. Oh my god. You get the official designation pro dang. Doesn't feel like it most days, but I appreciate it. That's all of us. Like even the best factories can have 5 to 10% loss. And like it's just it's ceramics. Yeah. Okay. I do like hearing that. Don't like 5 to 10% loss, but I guess it could be universal, right? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. One of the hardest things that we deal with is like everyone expects these things to work perfectly. And especially people coming to ceramics as an artistic practice. I don't know, I look at you side-eyed painters. We're like, yeah, you just buy it from a tube and you slap it on there and it holds. Like, yeah, you're not going through any chemical process. But like we have a process and heat. And that's the benefit that we get in ceramics, that we get to form things and shape them. But like, yeah, things are going to go wrong. There is no such thing as anything that's going to be perfect. I guess the one, the one guilt to get in, you know, our motto for the show here is you kind of have to test everything. So you get the rose test test, Ed Monashman. Yeah. I'm guilty of not testing sometimes. And I'm like, it works for them. It's going to work for me. It's a bummer to have to test, but it's worth it at the end of the day, but you are doing a lot of things well and you're thinking about your process well. And that's very exciting. Well, thank you. Wow. And with that star on your forehead, Meredith, I know we've got to let, we've got to let you go. But thank you so much for being with us. This was awesome. Well, thanks for the conversation. It made me feel better. Thank you. That's what we're here for. All right. Well, folks, that's it for this week's episode of For Flux Sake. I'd like to thank the listeners who submitted questions this week. And if you want your question answered on the show, shoot us an email at for
[email protected]. So join us next time and win in your studio. Remember what Rose always says. Always remember to test test test. This is a test of the emergency glazed system.
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