Flexibility, not Sobriety w/ Maggie & Rodolphe Frerejean-Taittinger, French Bloom

Hey listeners, have you heard of ENO-LITICS? Their data analytics platform for DTC and wholesale depletion data has led their clients to grow revenue three times faster than the industry average. Don't just take my word for it, their client, Rosie Barons, DTC manager of Six Mile Bridge Winery and Possible Robles shared her experience with ENO-LITICS. So Rosie, how has ENO-LITICS helped your business? I think the best thing that ENO-LITICS does for people in the wine sector is help bridge the gap between accessibility and efficiency of information and queries that you may not even know that you had. So for us here at Six Mile Bridge, it really helped us determine which wines I should put into our wine club release simultaneously based on preferred buying through Tasting Roohambits of Consumers. Find out more by visiting ENO-LITICS.com. That's ENO-LITICS.com. To learn more. Welcome to Ex-Shadow. The podcast that navigates the business of wine with unique perspectives and insights with your host Robert Vernick and Peter Young. Welcome to this episode of Ex-Shadow. Today we're going to be digging into the non-alcoholic wine market with the founders of French Bloom. And today our guests are Maggie Fraigeon, Tadanger, the founder and CMO and Rudolph Fraigeon, Tadanger, the founder and CEO of French Bloom. Welcome to the show, guys. Hello. Hey, thank you so much. Can you please give me and Peter a brief overview of your background? Let's start with Maggie, ladies first. Of course. So I'm an American. I'm a foodie at heart. I've always been a major fan of fine wine and champagne. I'm so much that I married a champagne maker. And my background is actually in gastronomy. I had the pleasure of working for the Michelin Guide for about five years. I had the coolest job on Earth. I was managing the international development of the guide. And traveling the world, discovering new cuisines, really focused on doubling the number of destinations that the red guide have covered over those years. And of course, we'll get to that, but really opened up my eyes for a certain reason as to how few choices there were for somebody who doesn't drink alcohol in a start restaurant, for example. And sorry, just care. You don't drink alcohol? I do. I do drink fine wine from time to time. But I think I represent the customers, the new consumers of today or of tomorrow. I drink better quality wine. I just drink a little bit less. And I'm looking for something that meets that expectation. But if we get right to it, I was pregnant. And I was pregnant in 2019. At a time when the Michelin Guide was, they had just acquired the Robert Parker wine advocate. And it was even more important that pairing of the beautiful dish in front of you. And of course, the beverage or wine that accompanied the meal. Awesome. Thank you for the intro. And Rudolf? Hi, everyone. I'm Andy Zosben. I'm a product for Frerjant Eterger. As you can see, I'm French, pretty big accident. So I'm not trying to desk to keep you going to the English. But my background is on the wine maker, like from originally from the bowl of wine making from champagne and from the Tétanger family. And also from Bogon, like from wine, I actually make wine. I'm only the biggest dissident of the family. I create my own kind of maison of champagne with my two bosses in 2005 named Frerjant Frerj. He's a villain, which is specialized in grand crew champagne or kind of like one-bore-or-grower type of wine. You also have a cognac house. It's quite pretty craft. We make cognac originally. And we had this pretty big shift when my wife was was pregnant in 2019. And she can resist crazy ideas of making alcohol free, stocking wine and trying to get to make some complex alcohol free wine, which is all questions today. So I guess that's why you started French bloom was during that time when Maggie was pregnant. And you also co-founded French bloom with model Constance Jeblansky. What role does she play in the company? Of course. So I think right from the beginning I had this idea. And I was convinced that when somebody doesn't drink alcohol for whatever reason, they deserve and they're looking for something at that same level in terms of quality, experience, complexity. And Constance is a great friend of mine from our New York City days. You know, Constance wasn't pregnant at the time. She was in the height of her career traveling the world in an industry such as fashion, like a lot of sectors where networking is so important. But networking often is in the late hours of the evening with a glass of something alcoholic in your hands. And she just felt like she couldn't kind of go out every time. I tend those events that were important and still get up and do the business travel. So you know, right from the beginning when we laid out the project with Rudolf, I was adamant that we focus on quality, but that we also don't make any compromise with regards to naturality. So it had to be organic. You know, we didn't want to add sulfites, no added sugar because when you'd replace a glass of wine, you don't necessarily want to replace it with something that's worse for you, something chemical, you know, high calorie high sugar. And then I think Constance getting to your question, Constance really sort of woke us up to the importance of being extremely intentional when it comes to brand building storytelling. Like let's not just create a product that is an alternative a substitute. Let's try and create a brand, a Maison on its own right. And with that, of course, it's brand building aspirational, but also packaging. Let's try and have something you can be proud to have on your table or bring to somebody for a dinner party. So today Constance, you know, along with us as a co-founder in with regards to communication, she's also very much at the heart of our digital marketing strategy. She is a very influential person on social media, very digital first, you know, over a million followers. And she's helping support our communication there. So it took over four years of our and D in several technical innovations to get the quality wanted with French boom. What were the innovations and how do you differ from current techniques of non-opalic wines? So first, it's really a perfect human quest. So everything stopped at the early days of 2020-2021 when we had this crazy idea. And so I think there is a lot of differentiations. The first differentiations we realize at the beginning when we start, we start to de-alcolize wine from a bit everywhere in France. So we've been de-alcolizing wine from Bordeaux, from Bognet, from Champagne, from the south of France. And you know, we realize that the problem is that when you de-alcolize wine, you lose 90, find the old days in 2021. We were losing 90% of the aroma of the wine. Now we are able to reduce this to we only lose 60% of the aroma of the wine, which is still a lot. But the biggest problem we have is when you remove the alcohol of the wine, you remove also the backbone of the wine. So because of that, you have to really rethink completely the method and the modifications. Of course, the first mover in this new category were like the the alcohol fee beers, then also the alcohol fee spirits. They really creates this category of alcohol fee. But when it comes to wine, it's much, much more complex. Wine is about provenance. Wine is about wine making about no-o. It's about climate. It's about so many things was going to make your wine. And so we realize I see one of the biggest learnings. You can take the best wine in the world. You can take a pitruise, I don't know, the greatest bourgain d'etit anywhere. If you're de-alphalising it, it's not going to make a good one. That's a big good starting. And so because of that, we've been starting to sing differently a little bit the same way we make cognac. Actually, I think the cognac making was perhaps one of the biggest learnings we had, even more than the champagne making. Because we had to take a base wine, which is not necessarily drinkable. So you have to take base wine, who are not the same drinkable. And then in order to have the best, the best best base wine to de-alcoholise after. And so the whole idea started here to say that we realize actually first the wine from the south of France, where much better, much stronger, we had much more body, much more shoulder to support the de-alcoholisations. That was a really key point. So very, very soon we decided to go to the south of France, especially to Long-Doc. So we start in Long-Doc for different reasons. A, because Long-Doc is kind of the kingdom of organic wine in France. 40% of the wine in Long-Doc are organic. If I compare with champagne, champagne is only three or four percent of the Appalachians, which is organic. So because we want to have organic base wine, Long-Doc was perfect for that. So only the fact that you have warmer wizards, you can have higher alcohol, level, you can have more body. And so after the de-alcoholisation, you find more texture naturally. And then he was at the Théois. Now we decided slowly to move to Limeu. Limeu is on the high yield of Long-Doc. It's an amazing Théois. It's this is for the best Théois to make alcohol-free complex wine. We believe that if burgundy is the best place to make burgundy wine, burgundy is the best place to make champagne, champagne. We believe that the best place to make complex alcohol-free wine is libu for many reasons. But one of them is it's Mediterranean Théois. In the south of France, we have the big influence of the oceanic Théois from the South. It's actually a Pantico-Chéon, but you also it's at 300 meters on the high yields. You have Chardonnay and Pinot Noir. So we come from that and we know very well how to work with Chardonnay and Pinot Noir. It's kind of like a temple of source. Now to natural wine, so we work on natural wine because there is no sweet fight. So we have to also use this no-hour of vinifications of basically aging wine without sweet fight, where of course you have to play with the east also in order to not get too much oxidation, but having a little bit of oxidative base wine is also a pretty big king for us in the learning to have more texture after the dealcolization. So what we do more and more is we create base wine was very oxidative, were very acidify and were very okie, fully organic and without sweet fight. And so this is kind of like the base of a wine making and we are really the only player in this new category really takes that fully serious. We don't do out of free wine on the side, you know, we just do that fully and we try to really to master that as a new no-hour. Interesting, so it's like it's almost the opposite of champagne in terms of under, if you're taking something bigger, boulder, lots of that when you strip away the alcohol the backbone you're left with that the natural residual sugar of the grape and has more weight to it already. But do you worry about tenons? I'm just curious, like with those bigger wines, because the alcozation process doesn't necessarily take away the tenon though. Yes, I mean the guy is key, so I think base one with not an hour or so is very key. I think base one with not body is key to get back after the alcozation should find that something now to find back some texture. We almost sometimes play or I don't know if you know, Jura wine wine from Jura for me as a geek because I'm first a big one lover and doing a lot of wine way too much. But I become more and more big fan of Jura wine. This is where I take so much pleasure right now. And when I love that those Jura wine is like they really play with the VWLASGE. It keeps the VWLASGE to protect with the East those oxidative base wine. And since without you you can really play without suing fight to really get to those so that creates those wine where oxidations really play on the edge of the oxidations you know. But since without you really build those reserves one. And so this is where perhaps the champagne method game also includes a game where we cannot like create a blend of different reserves wine from different year. And this is something that we start to really masterize to at French Blue. We start also to use so new oak berries but also food. Bands wine where we keep the wine and thanks to that we can bring much more complexity and death soon wine you know. So especially for Sparkling wine that your extra brew to 0% alcohol and 0% sugar. And a lot of other sparkling non-alcohol wines actually have quite a bit of sugar. The 0% sugar is actually a unique factor in my opinion. So how do you manage to build the body in the wine without those elements? I mean we covered that starting with the bigger bases or anything else in the techniques that you're doing to have you mentioned oxidation and things like that is there anything else you're doing to build a body. So for the extra bit our the extra bit is very special because it's a base of like 30 persons reserve wine from two different year age in barrels. So there is 30 persons of barrels new oak wines that we are going to really body build as much as possible in the town of oak. So we really create this base one where totally ungrinkable. Extreme we have to go to the extreme because we we have to go down 60 persons to find that balance after the earth accusations. So that's one of the techniques I have to say you know as a pioneer we've been tested learn tested learned testing and learn all the time to try to to find the best way you know and so the extra bit and lack of a as they are know how which is very unique and which is a little bit different from the now we've been putting in place at the early days for the blow and rosé. At the early days when we start we've been taking like a base of organic chardonnay wine that we've been real collising it and then we were adding some mood of result we say when we say mood of result we're ready Maggie if forget that to correct my French. So we were adding some chardonnay the chardonnay greatness or plenonouar get must of the rosé to try to get back the sweet the sugar in a little bit like him champagne with a liquor expedition the dosage was made with the most instead of adding sugar you know so we were building on this and we were at the early days we were building back the acidity before the the calculations by adding actually some lemon juice organic lemon juice that we are adding to correct and to bring acidity. Now we we've been learning also from that and now we more and more great base wine one hundred persons base wine and we try to get back the sweetness not by adding most or by adding sugar but by really working the has a wine in barriers and trying to get something very dry but with bringing the foods to say what we're doing in champagne and wine buys a walk of the barriers and to get back the acidity naturally from the wine by also working on this at the early days before everything's you make before the the calculations is really the thing it's really something we've been learning is the more you do makeup after the the calculations the better it is when you do things before the the actually you know so just a clarifying question with the reserve wines and barrels are those wines de-alcoholized when they're in barrel are you aging a wine with alcohol in barrel and then de-alcoholizing it later yeah we do that so we age the wine with alcohol for so for the first vintage blunder blower we've been aging the 2022 for eight months in barrels so in New York barrels and without suit fights so you have to maintain the quality but of course we're going to play on the age of oxidations quite oxidative actually and 2023 that we are going to release right now as we made with the harvest of 23 and then he has been aged a little bit more in barrels but not 100% so we've been able to reduce the sozi you know and we learning more and more to go more and more in terms of precision so to play with the barriers for the wine the food is a wine and the wines that we just age normally without alcohol of course but in the normal still tank all of your wines are sparkling so the initial fermentation I'm assuming is ambient yeast or natural yeast that are happening there for the secondary for to get the sparkling are you using a champagne yeast or are you using something else I'm curious because you mentioned yeast earlier on in the when you're talking about differentiation I'm curious on what you've done around yeast so yeast is a huge subject but we use yeast for the base wine for the base wine because we don't use suit fight so because we don't use suit fight and we make like a cannot fight natural wine process type we use the yeast to protect the wine of the oxidation so it's very hard because you have to keep the wine in barrels and make sure there is no oxygen inside and the yeast cannot protect the wine like in juah actually by creating a vallage to protect the wine unfortunately I really wish to say that we do a second fermentation like in champagne in the bottom with yeast and doing the magical champagne but we cannot do that because if we do that then we are going to have some alcohol so one of the technique we have been working we actually working on which I find really interesting is to try to use during the fermentation try to use the carbonation for the the oxidative carbon that you create from the fermentation during the first fermentation and try to take it back to capture it you know and to liquid liquidify this and then to be reusing when you carbonate the wine so this is kind of life one of the method we've been working on it because we believe by doing this you still doing natural fermentation so we're working on that so far we are not doing this because it's very hard to take this new innovations we're working with some company specialized to try to capture the carbonate during the first fermentation but so so far we just basically we take those base wine we work the modifications then we de-acalyze the wine and when we de-acalyze the wine then we carbonate at six bar of pressures like a champagne this clear and because we've been able to also go at six bar of pressures I was really a target it was very difficult because after we pasteurize the wine we are forced to pasteurize the wine because again we don't use sulfide we don't have the alcohol and as you know the alcohol and the sulfide are fantastic preservative but because we don't want to add any type of chemical preservative we want to keep the wine as natural as possible the pasteurizations for us is the best method because the pasteurizations kind of keep the wine natural in the past we used to do the pasteurizations by warming the bottle at 80 degree but the problem is like by doing this we are cooking the wine and the bottle was sometimes exploding at six bar of pressure so because of that the pressure needs to be lower now we do a flush pasteurization so thanks to that we can keep a high level of pressure off so I'm curious obviously taking the great cost aside do your non-alcoholic wines cost more to produce or less to produce than regular champagne or sparkling wine so if you had to do alcohol versus non-alcoholic sparkling wine which one's more expensive to produce from your perspective I mean of course champagne belonged to champagne champagne is is very different from what we are doing you know we are not in champagne first and we speak about another terroir we speak about the terroir flimous we certainly is a birthplace of the first sparkling wine one hundred and yes before champagne which is quite amazing this is actually for the little story, don't pay any on himself, when to the abe of Saint-Fyllaire Grimou to learn how to make the first sparking wine and to of course improve this method very much in Champagne, but that was called the ancestral method from the blockade of Flimou. So Limou has a very interesting terror and of course the price is different in Champagne from Limou, but yes it's very costly because yes we have to create a base wine and then we have to do a civil method of the alcoholization, we have to keep the wine so yeah it's it's costly. So how much wine does French bloom produce today? So last year we produce Al-Ferminion Bottles. Okay and clearly you believe in the market for non-alcoholic wines, how big do you think that market can become? That's a very interesting question actually because when we start there are no markets for premium alcohol-free product, we are the leader of the premium alcohol-free product, we create this new segment. I don't know why people thought that alcohol-free has to be like very cheap which is not at all the case, you know we realize that the customers are really willing to pay some premiums for quality, for experience, they are willing to pay for brand also which are not just an alternative, that's really one of the first step. So the non-alcoholic category is a really fast growing category, it was about a 10 billion dollar markets around 2020, now it's about 20 billion dollar markets, the size of the markets and we believe the market will be around 30 billion dollar markets by 2030. So it's a really fast growing market, I'm including on those figures all the out of the BS of course which are huge and of course all the out of free spirits which are also growing fast. The non-alcoholic premium spacking-wide which we are leading actually was a very niche market, we believe this market today is around half a billion dollars, that's kind of the size of the markets, this is where we believe the market is but we believe this market's cool potential in the gold in the next five years. Yeah we believe it's a really fast growing category, the premium out of free spacking-wide, especially since it's in the categories that we know the best, we believe that the out of free spacking-wide category is a very interesting category because you can play also with layers, you know lack force, the alcohol free beer, you have layers, and the layer of having acidity, having a different, for me the holy grail in this new category is the steel wine. We are still a little bit far, I believe in depth of quality, to be able to crack the game of making like very complex alcohol free steel wine. But I'm pretty sure in the next three, four years you're going to start to see some very good alcohol free steel wine, the head wine, the white wine. But just starting wine, give us more possibility in terms of layers that lack force, the beer. Got it. And for the non-alcohol wine market in particular, do you see the interest differ regionally versus globally versus everywhere? So it's funny because when we first started developing French bloom, we thought initially it would be for people like myself who were pregnant at the time or the sober community or everybody said you're going to kill it in the Middle East, you know Saudi Arabia and Dubai. But interestingly enough, we've seen these last few years that the most powerful trend today, it's not sobriety, it's flexibility. And I really believe that consumers aren't saying no to alcohol, they're saying not always, not all the time. And I'm telling you this because three and a half years after our first bottles were released into the market, our biggest markets are champagne markets, sparkling wine markets. And that's because our consumers do drink wine, fine wine, and champagne and sometimes cocktails. They're just looking to moderate to reduce their consumption. So that means that France, my god, who would have ever thought France is the largest market for French bloom. I think you can tell from the name French bloom that we didn't create it for the French market. We wanted it to be easily exportable and easy to pronounce and other markets. But France is our largest market followed by the United States, which probably doesn't come as a surprise because it is a rather mature market in the non-alcoholic space. But then very much aligned to other champagne markets, UK, Japan, it's very successful in Japan, Australia, Belgium, Germany, and that was of course a large surprise. Our consumers are younger, they're between the ages of about 25 to 45. They skew a little bit more female, but they all share typically an appreciation for sparkling wine with and without alcohol. And so you kept the name French bloom for the French market. Sometimes people like change the names. The blast for me. Yes, yes, we did. And especially in the wine element of non-alcohol, definitely still wines have yet to take off sparkling a little bit more mature. But do you think that the market needs some catalyst in order to really take off and become a big ingrained part of the market? You're perfectly correct. I think that beer really sort of laid the way over these last 15 years, 15 years ago, non-alcoholic beer was undrinkable. Today it's at that same level and close to the quality. And that's a direct result to the tens of billions of euro or dollars that have been invested by the industry in terms of R&D. So for me, you know, research and development is really everything. The moment that we start to have wines and whether it be flat wines or sparkling wines at that same level of complexity, I think that it's really going to take off. And we're finally starting to get there. You know, for French bloom, it's a quest. It's a strive for constant improvement and perfection. And if I'm straight with you, you know, the first production of French bloom is nowhere where we are today and thank God for that. You know, we're on the 10th version of our Blanc. We're on the 9th version of our rosé. Every production we're trying to push the needle. We're making technical innovations and advancements and we're integrating that into the production of the wine. So I think the moment that the quality is there, which it's starting to be, I'm confident that you're going to start to see it in more restaurants, hotels. And it's really, you know, being driven by the customers. The demand for the customers are there because the quality wasn't there resorting to other non-alcoholic products. Like, take myself, for example, I drink beer for the first time when I was pregnant. It was non-alcoholic beer. But I'm not a beer girl. Like, I was always a champagne girl. So again, like so instead of maybe a consumer's going to a beer or a cocktail, they'll be replacing that favorite glass of wine with a non-alcoholic wine as soon as the quality's there. And so how do you think about distribution for non-alcoholic wines? Do you think they should be sold through wine margins, retailers, both or through a specific non-alcoholic beverage channel? One of the learning we have right now is we realize that the best distributors are the wine distributors, especially the champagne distributor, especially for French Blume, I guess. But we've been trying so much to disrupt the game at the early days. We saw that we could go directly, we could drop the old distributions, but actually especially in the US, and it says that the distributors, the old-school distributors from wine inspirates are still the best when it comes to building a brand in restaurants and hotels, because they do have the networks, they do have the distributions. In some markets, for example, like in Dynast, we're walking with some guys who just do out-of-free products. A few markets like this, like Belgium or so, but most of our distributors are top distributors from alcohol. We are very lucky also because about nine months ago, we have LVMH, who just invests in two French Blume, so they have a minority stock in the capital, but they're really helping us, they're helping us in terms of distribution, some few markets like UK and Furesers, like Nordics, and they're helping us in the US and Canada, and they're helping us also by having an amazing distribution network through the Maison Mache, and the Mache from Dior to Louis Vuitton, and so being served in all the their top-like stuff is really great. They're helping us in terms of air and air, also, because they've been working on that since a long time, and it's great for us to have LVMH on our side, that bring a lot of legitimate teams into the category. As you probably know, we just sign the formula one, or so. We just need the announcement this morning, so we are very proud of that. French Blume would be an official partner of the formula one, which is extraordinary. So, thanks to that, we can really create this leader of this new category. That seems to make a lot of sense, given the premium price point, and probably very similar talking points, just without the alcohol, obviously, that you're going through champagne distribution channels, because they'll be able to replicate that kind of new onsite you're looking to get. Yes, absolutely. I also want to add that it also makes so much sense, because we need salespeople who are speaking to the similiés, who are able to taste with the F&B director, and typically we see French Blume listed in the sparkling wine section, typically just below the champagne and sparkling wine, often at about 80% of the price point of the house champagne. So, again, as you perfectly said, it makes a lot of sense. You know, wine is a very, very conservative religion, especially in France. and in Italy it's extremely conservative. And I have to say that there is a lot of very dogmatic people who are sometimes very old-school sommelier who could be really against the Arthur III category. And so, you know, when we started the early days, we had a lot of barriers from actually those sommelier who, well, I cannot say, oh, it's against my religions, you know, you cannot do that, you cannot do Arthur III. And there is a very funny parallel that I always like to be described with the first champagne, you know, in the 18th century when the first monk were like making champagne, everybody was saying, oh, you cannot do champagne, champagne is against the religions, the devil, you know, but the demand of the markets builds a category. And it is actually the demand what people want who makes a category. And the sommelier are forced now to know the category. It's becoming a real shift in terms of consumptions. And so, the demand is becoming a real big wave, you know, and so, through the demand, the category has been drilled. Where now, even the one-over and the sommelier, they understand that. So, you sell your wine online as well. How important is the director consumer market for you? Oh, yeah, the director consumer is extremely key for French bloom. We do about 20% of our sales online on our own website around the world, including the United States. And we feel like it's a privilege because I think if you compare it to maybe the traditional wine and spirits industry, if you're doing 3% or 5% director consumer, you're probably doing pretty well. So, for us to know our end consumers, our final customers, to be able to engage with them, to be able to, you know, get direct feedback and integrate it into our products is wonderful. And of course, understanding data as well. And, you know, how new versions of each production are pleasing a repeat customer. It's been really key. So, you talked about the customers for non-alcohol wines. Do you think they're very different for the French bloom customers? I mean, obviously, there's a premium side of it. But, or do you think that there's a fundamentally different makeup for the premium non-alcohol customers versus the average non-alcohol customer? We in 2024 did a study with Neilson IQ in the United States, for example. At the end of last year, in order to understand a little bit of what drives that non-alcoholic customer in general, and especially non-alcoholic wines. And there we learned that the number one reason for purchasing a bottle of non-alcoholic wine, for example, in a shop in a retail, was for conscious hosting. So, it was, I'm hosting tonight and somebody in my dinner party or someone in my group is not drinking. I want them to feel like they can experience this, this meal in this moment, just like everybody else around the table. The second reason was health and wellness, you know, for my health journey, and then the third was driving. And I like to believe that for that first, the kind of conscious hosting, I truly believe, because I hear it all the time, that there's an alignment there for French bloom. French bloom is about kibbutliality. It's about bringing people together. It's about not excluding anybody. There's this inviting nature to the product and to the brand. And of course, we all know sparkling wine is to be celebrated. So I think that there we have, let's say, a similar motive. But what I like to believe in what we've been seeing this last year, especially with the launch of our prestige collection with the QV, and our first vintage, as well as our extra brute, is I think we're also starting to bring some of those wine lovers to enjoy non-alcoholic sparkling wine. I think that they can find, and I hope that you, and if you've, I don't know if you've tried it yet, I would love to ensure that we can taste together soon. But I think that you can find that three-dimensional nature of what you're looking for in a fine wine, of course, with the nose, with the palate, but also with the length. And I think we're starting to finally really approach that complexity and that pleasure that you can find with the alcoholic counterpart. So I'd say our differentiating in terms of customers is we're really starting to have those wine lovers and we're going to be part of the French bloom consumer base. And then we also, interestingly enough, have started to see a real peak in this sort of professional performance-based customers, so individuals who, I'm not talking about necessarily a professional athlete, but I mean individuals who are in, let's say, executives who are in their professional life, whether it's finance or tech or entertainment or anything, but who simply just can't perform at the level that they're expected every single day and consume alcohol every night that they're entertaining clients. So again, we know our end customer, we see a lot of big names and sea suites that we all know in this room that are perhaps moderating or going dry during the week and then enjoying about of the wine during the weekend. So I'd say wine lovers and professionals are where we're really starting to see kind of a difference in clientele. And how do you go about reaching out to your customer base? I mean, are there any tactics that you've had to employ that are different than maybe other wines in the space? I'll start from sort of the end consumer. We definitely began with sort of a digital first approach. My co-founder, as I mentioned earlier, is a taste maker, is a key opinion leader, is very connected on social media. So I think when we saw that, we, she did a teaser six months before our launch and we hadn't planned to actually launch French Blument in France. We were going to begin in the UK because God forbid, you know, launch a non-alcoholic sparkly wine in the land of Champagne. And somebody saw this post from kind of one of the most exclusive epistaries, it's called the Grand Epistérie, part of the Beaumarsche in Paris. And so she saw this teaser post and said, "You have to start with us. We want the exclusivity immediately." So we began a little bit on digital storytelling and authentic founding story as well, which is true. We actually really needed this product. And I think a lot of people can see themselves in our story. And now we're really starting to go a bit further with regards to partnerships. You know, French Blument was part of the new bar for the Coachella, these last three years. We were served at Coachella in concessions over the, you know, one of the biggest music festivals around the world. We also had a first this year with, we were at the French Open, served to, so the partnership there. And then now, of course, with our, this paramount 10-year partnership with the Formula One as their first ever official non-alcoholic sparkly wine. You can imagine that it's going to be a fantastic tool to recruit, to recruit new consumers. And I think we all know that the Formula One of, today is not the F1 of seven or ten years ago. The fan base has completely evolved and transformed. It's, you know, three out of four new F1 fans are women. 50% of the new fans are Gen Z. So they're younger, they're skewing more female, largely due to, of course, the successful Netflix series. That's been on, I think, for the last seven years. But, you know, who would have thought that French Blument would be able to recruit maybe a younger clientele or continue to have that feminine clientele through a Formula One partnership, but we're really thrilled and excited to start. And so will you be on the podium with a Gerrard Baum like Ferrari Trento was? So I think we're going to leave the podium for Moet Chandel for good reason. But you can't expect to see French Blument served in all of the paddocks in, you know, many of the concessions as well, all 24 races for the next 10 years. That's awesome. And so what have been the most effective marketing techniques that you've used to promote French Blument? I kind of shared this just earlier, but for me, the authentic storytelling that founder story is so important in a startup, in a new, especially for a new category. And we were so lucky and privileged that it's real. A lot of brands, they have to kind of come up with it after the product and the branding is done. Here, it was created for a real need. Different needs. I think that I imagined some listeners can see themselves of, oh my God, when I was pregnant. I had nothing to drink. I was drinking apple juice or kiddy, I don't know, Gatorade or what now, Ginger Beer. Others can see themselves in constant story. Maybe you're not a fashion model traveling the world, but my God, we're all working a lot. You know, we're all wearing many hats. We do a business travel. We have long days. We still want to network at night. We want to see friends. We want to be a good partner. So I think that many of us, when you start to understand the need for moderating, the need for a non-alcoholic option that's at that same level, I think everybody's like, oh yeah, it's kind of a naha moment. Like, of course. And why wasn't there a product like this before? And then lastly, I'd say that it's been really important for people to discover French bloom at those really top tier restaurants, hotels and shops. You know, a few examples in the United States is some of our first customers were La Providence that the now newly three Michelin star restaurant in LA, Judd Sink, the new three star Korean restaurant in New York City. So I think in terms of the gastronomic world, they embraced it because they needed it. We read a statistic the other day that like in star restaurants, one out of two consumers at lunch don't drink any alcohol. And about 20% of customers in the evening at star restaurants also don't. So of course, they need something in order to have an offer that's going to compliment the food. And also in terms of grocery stores, one of our first clients was Air One. Air One, of course, the extremely successful, my god, groceries in the West Coast. And now soon in New York, I just saw within one week we were the number one selling wine within the Air One shop. So it was a great discovery awareness tool as well. Well, and in terms of messaging to customers, what have you seen resonate? Is it the no alcohol part? Is it a low calorie part or is it something else? I think the messaging resonates differently based on the different groups, the different audiences, also based on the different regions, especially in the United States. I think the no sugar added or no sugar, even with our extra brute. the organic, the no additives, no preservatives really resonate in California, which probably doesn't surprise. I think it's less important on the East Coast if I generalize completely. But for me, we love to use the term alcohol-free. We don't think that French bloom is lesser than or a negative and non-alcoholic, we're free of alcohol. And the fact that it doesn't have alcohol shouldn't be a minus, it shouldn't be a less than, it's actually a plus. A completely agreeable theory is we've had French bloom we first make wine. And the fact that alcohol-free is secondary first. And I think that that's pretty the key aspect of it is try to real like a three-dimensional experience of wine, you know. And again, it's not just because it's without some fights, organic, it's not that it's first wine, where you have provenance inside, where you know how, where you have a full experience, you know. And really a quest of making complex alcohol-free wine is very important is we want to be much more than just an alternative. We want to be a new type of wine, where complexity is far more than for the experience is key. And that you're not just drinking it because you know, you have nothing else to drink in, because you are puny, so rejected from the party. But actually, because you want to be at the same level, that's really the purpose, the mission of French bloom is try to get there. And I think we slowly getting there. But also, I guess the prime point is also important. It's premium and ultra premium. And you know, we want people to be proud of that when they they come to a party. And of course, perhaps it's a little bit elitist what I'm saying. But coming from Champagne, each house of Champagne, he's cannot for club. Don Perignon is a very different club from the detergent, detergent is a different club from a, I don't know, from boom or radar, you know. And we are building our own club with French bloom. And that's key. Also, again, we want people to be proud of receiving this bottle of French bloom and also being proud to be served by in a restaurant, by sommelier or glass of French bloom. So it's a full experience starts there where we building a new form of statutory to. And so you mentioned that quality could be one of the big catalysts for the whole industry. But what are the key trends for non-alcoholic wine that you're watching over the next two to three years? I have two trends. The first is something that I observed over these last few years. It's the pairing. So I think we all love, of course, our wine pairing. More and more though, we're also seeing the rise of the non-alcoholic pairing. But what interests me perhaps the most, so it's actually perfect for French bloom customers who are flexi drinkers. It's called the moderate pairing. It's something that I've seen rise very fast in his last two years. An example is, it's a Wednesday lunch. I'm at a one-star restaurant. I'm having four courses. Perhaps I would like a glass of wine or two. But I'm going back to the office. I'm not going to have those four glasses at the sommelier will propose. So I'm going to take the moderate pairing and it's actually now just becoming the pairing. So what I mean is it's wine or alcoholic drinks, typically wine, but mixed in with non-alcoholic drinks or non-alcoholic wine like French bloom. And I think that that's extremely exciting because it's also opening us up to ensuring that again, it's not a lesser than. And you can really experience that same level of pleasure and complexity and emotion without alcohol. And then the second one is it's actually not just for non-alcoholic wine, but in general. It's mirrored cocktails, so what I mean is I love the idea and we're seeing it more finely in France. And I know that it's already been around a bit in the United States, but it's so three versions of the same cocktail. So I can have my favorite cocktail without alcohol with low alcohol or full-proof alcohol. And it's still the same glass, the same experience, often and hopefully that same level of reconstitive experience that same taste. But the level of alcohol is just kind of secondary. I can choose how I'm feeling at that moment. I love that and I must add that French bloom actually, especially our blanc and rosé, our court of core range is starting to be worked in quite a few cocktails. The structure of the blanc works especially well and we have mixologists tell us that all the time. So why not also have French bloom in a no alcohol, a low alcohol and also a full alcohol cocktail. That sounds great. My wife's a huge consumer of spritzes. And there's actually quite a few good. Yeah. Absolutely. We do a fantastic non alcohol experts. Oh great. So we want to wrap up that episode on a personal note and we are curious what is your most cherished wine in your personal cellar and when do you plan on drinking it? Doesn't have to be non alcohol. It's just curious as you were both wide lovers. For me, it's a 2005 frasional frère, Qvey de Houssard. So as you've heard my husband, I have to plug him a little bit, but it's true. My husband makes beautiful wines, champagne in Avise. And when we first started dating in I think 2012, it was his first vintage, his 2005, a blanc de blanc. Absolutely gorgeous. That aged very well. I have one bottle left and I'm excited to open it up at our 10 year wedding anniversary, which will be this next June. Great. And of course, I love champagne that I'm going to try because my wife here, you'd be very, it was lovely to say, I'm not sure, but I will say, "Groge de Père 2015." I don't know if you know a bit about "Groge de Père," but it's a wine that I find magical and it's very unique. And I also love, I don't know if you know a bit, "Groge de Père," it's kind of the south of France wine extraordinary. And when do you plan on drinking it? Soon with you guys, when you come to France, we love also our white burgundy. We have a big lover of white burgundy. Of course, we don't drink only French wine. We're a big wine lover, actually. We are a big wine lover. And all the team at French Bouve are wine lover. We are now here to give any lessons. We are first wine lover and French Bouve is definitely a part of these six times. Great. We thank you both for sharing so much information about French Bouve and the premium side of non-alcoholic wine and something that's trying to really replicate or make its own kind of three-dimensional palette and you're having these gastro-malic experiences. And we'd love hearing the story, the origin of it and how you went about it. We appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. It was really great speaking. It was a pleasure. Hey listeners, if you love the show, support it by buying a show notes book. They not only compile two years of episodes, but also organizes them into themes for better learning. They can be an inspiration to listen to or relisten to an episode or provide a quick reference of the key learnings from a show. Go to xchatto.com and click on the store page for easy links to buy. Thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us. If you loved this episode of xchatto, we'd love for you to subscribe. Great. And give a review on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. Until next time, cheers.