Flexibility, Accessibility, Simplicity: Dexter’s Approach to Robotics - Greg Roche – Distalmotion

Welcome to the Sejipot's podcast, Howard Bikeflux. There are multiple verticals when you look at a robotic company that you have to master. AI data science, everyone's talking about that in the integration of those tools and telepresence. So right there you have multiple vectors. We want to be a global player in the soft tissue, multi-port, robotic landscape. And I think we have a unique product that will allow us to do that. You have to find the right people. You know, people for me is everything in a strategy. And what you're doing this is rapidly as we are. You have to balance speed and quality. The new generation of surgeons, you know, and I'm going to say, for the most part, a predominantly will be trying to implement robotics into their practice. We can really provide a difference and allow people to pick and choose what they think is best for the patient. Before we deep dive into this episode, I wanted to take 30 seconds to introduce you to the sponsors of this season of the podcast TTP. TTP is a technical consultancy that has a 35-year track record helping companies transform innovative ideas into market-ready products. They're 300 strong team of scientists, engineers and designers. All under one move can take care of your surgical robotics or imaging technology from an app can sketch all the way through to early stage commercialisation. I was looking enough to get the invite out to their Cambridge facility. They gave me eyes on the number of the projects they're working on, and not only is the facility state of the art, but the main competitive advantage I see with these guys is their people. A group of incredibly smart, focused and friendly guys who do not shy away from a lofty engineering challenge. If you want to learn more about some of the work they've done or to talk more about a project you have in mind, shoot me a message on LinkedIn or visit their website TTP.com to get into touch with one of the team. Hello Greg and welcome to the Surgebox podcast. Thank you. Great to be here and we'll see you again, Henry. Appreciate it. Absolutely. It's an absolute pleasure to have you on here and I'm looking forward to learning a bit more about the story with Dexter. Before we get into that, just give me a breakdown of your background. So, talk me through your career up to this point. Yeah, so maybe a little unique on the educational side. I went to university at Miami-Bohayan followed that up by going to law school so I do have a JD, which is maybe a little unique. Had my first five years were outside of MetTech and technical sales around back when the exchange of data wasn't based on the internet, believe it or not. So, I might be dating myself a little bit but did large data networking for Fortune 500 companies as I was starting my career and then I found I found Striker in 2005. So, I spent for 2005 to 2012 with Striker. In various roles, I started in their endoscopy business. So, I always say, soft tissue robotics is a bit of a coming home for me. I started my career in laparoscopic surgery. So, you know, we're now really accommodating the same surgeries where I started and then I spent two years in their captive finance business. So, running the commercial components of their captive finance or leasing business and also their large account strategy in the US I let from 2010 to 2012. I got 2012, got pulled over to work for Zimmer Bioment. So, I ran the commercial expansion of their surgical business. Did that for five years and took that business from 90 million to about 220 million and then picked up general manager responsibilities for that business and a few other businesses and then, you know, the most applicable experiences I led the launch of the ROSME towards the back half of my career at Zimmer which was from 2012 to 2021. So, nine years and launched that product globally and then had a two-year stent that I would say as a light company in Avaterra which was a German based soft tissue robotic startup and then was lucky enough to connect with a couple board members from distal motion over over the last summer and really found this to be a great and unique fit and started there in November 20 of this of 2020, excuse me, 2023. Awesome. Appreciate you again to that detail. So, I want to push. So, where where was the first time you came across surgical robotics? What space was it in and where was the first time? Yeah, so I mean it definitely was at Zimmer and you know, I had sat in a lot of strategic meetings talking about when, you know, surgical robotics was going to be relevant in the orthopedic space. You know, so that, I mean those discussions were going on, you know, in the early 2010s time frame and obviously you know, striker V8 and acquisition of MECO and therefore, you know, the discussions I would say he did up and Zimmer ended up acquiring a company called Medtech out of Montpellier France which had a neuro robot which was converted to orthopedic. So, it was kind of in that, you know, 14, 15 time for any, but obviously from a commercialization perspective or when we actually launched a product, there was a few years after that. Okay. So, was that acquisition? Was that a trigger because striker got into the game and it was kind of a reactive, reactive piece of M&A or was this something that was in the works for longer? Yeah, I think, you know, maybe both. You know, look, I think really the hard part with orthopedics was understanding what value, you know, and I think you and I have talked about this before, the value around a product, you know, typically has to solve a problem and I think really what people were struggling with and orthopedics was, what does the robot, what problem does the robot solve? Right? There's very very skilled surgeons as there are, you know, from a laparoscopic perspective. So, is the robot truly bringing value? And I think, make up, you know, that acquisition of make up for striker, it started to show not only that there was high market interest in that, but it actually did bring value. And so, that's when I think the exploratory discussions, you know, became more strategic on how number one, of course, you got to defend your business. I mean, if you don't have something in your portfolio, there's, you know, and there's that big of a gap, it could create pressure in the marketplace. But I think more importantly, for Zua at that time, they wanted to find a product that really added value to the surgeon. And what we saw was it did, I mean, people really changed the way that they perceive how to do a total knee. They're making more patient patient centric cuts, moves, you know, soft tissue balancing and soft tissue preservation became over indexed, which I think is really, really good for the recovery of the patient. So it's kind of two vectors. Obviously, again, you got to be attentive if someone has something that's differentiated and it is proving out to be something that's strategic and smart to do. That's one thing, but also you always have to solve the problem and really drive a positive outcome, which I think breaks the solve. Sure. And I think it's going to be useful to go into this because I find it fascinating the early stage surgical robotics commercialization. So those are very early stage commercialization was a big success and actually exceeded some of the targets. So it talks me, so when you're looking at a commercialization in a brand new field where you've never commercialized a robot, how do you make it successful? And I guess how do you build that commercial structure to take it to market? Well, look, I think, you know, a couple things. So I'll talk maybe first organization link. You know, there's a difference between being a large strategic and, you know, maybe a company that's it and it's earlier component or, you know, so I don't want to say startup because distal motion isn't a startup, you know, it's it's now 12 years of the making, but we don't have the means that a large strategic has relative to commercial expansion. So with with with Zimmer, we had a different philosophy. I mean, we could lean on a large sales organization or the petex sales organization, implement specialization and really ignite a launch in a different way. I think, you know, when you're looking at maybe some of the other companies around the peripheral now on robotics, you have to be deliberate and measured. So you have to know where, you know, you have to apply segmentation strategies. You have to know exactly where you can win. You have to over index in places that you have a right to win. And you have to be, you know, I because I think we've seen a couple lessons learned where people have over indexed on commercial or say let's say sales and marketing and they've had to retract, you know, you have to you have to continually provide value for the company. So you have to do it in a measured way. And I think incremental sustainable repeatable growth is, you know, kind of what companies like distal motion should be focused on in the early stages. Okay, understood. But going back to kind of the Zimmer side of the equation. So early stage companies is one thing, but how did you create in a even in a big strategic because there's other strategics that are struggling mentioning no names. They're struggling to commercialise surgical robots. So how was it that you got that early stage like hype and growth and I guess yeah, Webvenu, how did you get it so quick? Yeah, so number one, I mean, incredible development team, right? So I guess I casually mentioned they took a neural robotic converted it to total knee. That's not easy to do. I just made it sound very easy, but an incredible software team in Montreal that they had acquired through another acquisition to, I mean, just super talented and again, that goes to ultra important to have, you know, very skill development experience development teams behind you, regardless of the size of the company. And then the other pieces, you know, in that particular scenario, I mean, you know, Zimba has an incredible global brand, great implants, which is obviously the adjacent sale to a robot, you know, large market share. So they had all of these kind of tailwinds and you add high growth in robotics. You know, one of the things that I learned there was this side of care component, right? How important enabling new sites of care. So in this particular example, outpatient surgical hospitals and ASEs where the patient and the physician have just a much better experience when they go to get a surgery. So, you know, that was one of the areas we focused on. I mean, we're doing the same thing here at DISTALMotion, you know, as we prep for US launch, you know, that is a huge focal area for us because there are so many intrinsic benefits. So again, sometimes you can ride and I think in our market or in Orzapedix, there's a wave of growth. That is going to happen, right? I mean, that is going to happen, but also you could have power or enable surgery in places that benefit either the patient or the physician and that, you know, that's another key part to that strategy we had in the strategy we have at DISTALMotion. Awesome. So moving through, first of all, that Zimba Biomatt and you came to the German company Averterma Medical. So, it tells me a little bit about the journey and some of the lessons learned from that experience. Yeah, so, you know, I always say my two years there, prep me perfectly for this role. You know, and what I would say is an incredible team there. I was really blessed to work with that team for the time that I had. You know, they had made incredible progress on a product, but this goes to show you a Henry that robotics is difficult. It is not easy to do and for, you know, various, various factors. You know, I would say one of my key learnings from that two years, which is one of the reasons I ran towards this DISTALMotion opportunity is being the master of everything is almost impossible. And what do I mean by that? So, the robot, of course, is one. Instrumentation is another. If you have a closed system, you have to excuse me visualization, advance visualization, submitting ICG or potentially multi-special imaging, other types of advanced imaging that allow the human eye to see more than it can naturally, or it would see more than it naturally would. And then, AID, a science, everyone's talking about that in the integration of those tools and telepresence. So, right there, you have multiple vectors. And, you know, I always give the example, I mean, even the best companies in the world can't master all of those things. So, it's truly different, you know, very, very difficult. And again, that's why I loved DISTALMotion. We've chosen to allow the customer to be the master of those vectors by choosing DISTALMotion for the robot and instrumentation. You know, but you can choose your advanced energy or stapling part of it. You can choose what you prefer in visualization or ICG or advanced imaging. You can choose your telepresence part of it. We've happened to partner in a line with Proximy because we think that's going to be great for our infrastructure. But the customer also has a choice. And then, you know, we'll continue to focus on data and analytics, number one, internally to empower the robot, you know, to be more efficient to, you know, allow us to service the customers in the best way possible. But also, if we can get to it, you know, to allow us to provide different points of information inside of care. So, surgeons can make the best decisions possible for the outcomes of those patients. I don't think anyone's totally there yet, but I know that, that, you know, that's where everyone's going. So, a lot of work streams, but, you know, I would say to the team at Avatar, I love my time there. I love the team and really, you know, wish all, but the best for them as they go forward in their journey. Yeah, absolutely. So, so we start a DISTALMotion then. So, what was the reason behind, I guess, the wife joining DISTALMotion? What was it that was attracting you and what was the pull towards DISTALMotion? Yeah, so it's multifactorial. Start with the basics, which is the team. You know, Michael Frederick, who's now our CEO, and it was one of the founders of the company. He did an awesome job in saying no to a lot of things, which is, you know, why I think we have the only small form factor open platform in soft tissue, multi-port robotics, some plan. But that took a lot of strength. It's very easy to try and get in and do multiple things. So, you're, you're trying to serve kind of all constituents. And I think key in DISTALMotion made the right choices early on in the development of this product. You know, to put it where we are today. Also, you know, from a board and investor perspective, we have the right people around the business. We've got, you know, great, great private equity firm. We've got a strategic on the cap tables. You know, a lot of blue chip investors around us, which was fantastic. And then finally, the product. You know, one of the things that I learned at ZIRR, and you know, we focus on simplicity, accessibility, and excellence. And when I say excellence, again, I mentioned that we want to build a world-class robot that can accommodate all surgeries within gynecology, urology, general surgery. We want to make up, you know, best-in-class instruments. But obviously, we also have, you know, the understanding that we have to make it accessible. And so we have to do it at, you know, for markets and sites of care, we're, you know, both logistically, financially and clinically. They can implement these things, right? And then simplicity, and this is a big one. You know, and again, a learning from my time at ZIRR, you know, Distributions product is based around the workflow of the surgeon. So you implement the technology into the surgeon's workflow, whereas some of the other, you know, closed-ended systems, you know, I see the surgeon has to work around the workflow, the robot. And that's very, very different. And again, when you talk about implementing tech into a workflow, it needs to be simple. Again, it doesn't mean the device is uncomplicated. I think I've said that publicly, a bunch. It just means that it has to integrate simply both for the surgeon and the team supporting the surgeon in that operating environment. Okay. So I guess I'd love to find that like, why would a surgeon choose to use distal motion over some of the other providers that are out there? Yeah. So there's, I mean, we probably don't have enough time on the podcast to talk through all the reasons why I think why. But you know, again, I'll just kind of stick to the themes and maybe some of the differences. So we have a very small format robot, right? So when you talk about accessibility, smaller O-overs, different sites that care. So in the US, in countries like the UK, Switzerland, where they have alpacet surgery centers, you know, we can, we believe we can, we can logistically serve those sites of care based on that form factor. The other component is we have a sterile console, which is very unique to distal motion. So when you talk about accessibility and I'll use in Gwendolyn, hernia as an example, the surgeon can use all the benefits of robotic technology. So suturing, dissection, working in confined space with wrist and instruments, which is what makes lap laparoscopy very, very difficult. So you can be incredibly efficient. But we have a lot of surgeons that actually will move over and apply the mesh in those particular cases laparoscopically, which is incredibly efficient, right? So they, they can basically blend the best of both worlds or what they think is best for that particular surgery. And also what they think is most efficient for that particular surgery. So that's really unique. If you look at any of the other systems and people breaking, you know, coming in and out of scrub, to do different things, whether it be fire, fire, fire in a stapler, if it's not integrated on that device or an energy device, it's pretty cumbersome. So it's, you know, incredibly unique. Logistically, we have a single use. So it's from at speed and efficiency, not having to sterilize or at least having the ability not to sterilize, is incredibly valuable. The other piece, and again, a learning back from my initial launches with with Zimmer, some of the facilities that just don't have the capacity or the financial capacity to hold the inventory required to do these high-volume robotic procedures. So there is basically what we think we're solving for, we're solving for clinical components. So bringing something in that integrates into the workflow that allows the surgeon still to be connected to the patient, also massive benefits there from a training perspective as well. And then you have this accessibility perspective. So you can't bring some of these larger form factor robots into an outpatient surgical hospital or ASC or even some of the smaller ORs into European setting or US setting where you get into regional hospitals. So we think we make it accessible there and then find financially accessible, right? Trying to drive down that cost per procedure and the total capital outlay or cost per service, we want to try and be disrupted that there as well. So a lot of different variables where we think we can really provide a difference and allow people to pick and choose what they think is best for the patient. Interesting. And this is a common theme of course some of the other podcasts as well but you've mentioned a couple of times already. The centers of care are changing within the market and surgical robots need to fit into these future of the ASC and the future of the outpatient setting. So can you tell me a little bit more about what's driving this transition to the outpatient into the ASC and then how dextrified it is into that? Yeah, so I think for what we talked about before, I mean if we think about especially with these higher volume lower Q and E types of procedures, I'm going to a brick and mortar hospital or a large academic can be very cumbersome on a patient. It's not easy to maneuver or operate through those facilities, experiences just a little bit different. And so there's a quick in and out relative to the patient, the experience is much better, it's less invasive. And quite frankly, I think they're probably leaning towards that. The physician the same thing, right? And again, it doesn't mean that a large hospital isn't an efficient environment but you can drive greater efficiencies when you're in these different sites of care. So I think patient and physician experience is kind of two of those factors and I also think just efficiency around costs, right? So you're doing more with less and again you're able to serve, maybe a greater population of patients just because of the infrastructure is maybe a little bit more nimble and designed to serve those types of procedures. Why dextrified it? Again, just all the things that we talked about before, size, flexibility around instrumentation, the ability for a surgeon to flex in between the surgical field. So if they need to do something, they can get quickly to the patient. You don't need multiple surgical texts assisting. You can work with one that you don't need another physician in the sterile field. So again, you can be more nimble with the system. Cost is a factor as well. And again, we hope to be disrupted there. And I shouldn't even say cost, I should say value. But really focused on allowing them to be, hit those, and then implementation, again, making it easy for them to implement the technology and not disrupt it to their workflow as well. But all three of those things kind of the clinical logistical, financial verticals all have to be solved for that to be right. One final comment, the procedures are moving there. The highest growth in the procedures we cover are going into these sites of care. In fact, of our total team in the US, which is roughly five, five million procedures and the vehicles we call on three billion of those are in outpatient surgical hospitals today. But the highest growth is in the outpatient surgery center. So, you know, I think there's a balance, but there's surprisingly a lot of volume, a lot of under, you know, and there's not a lot of penetration in those sites that cares for all the reason, you know, we just, I just imagine. So can some of these bigger mainframe robotics companies compete in the air season, the outpatient setting, or are they going to struggle? Yeah, I mean, look, I think everyone can remove the financial barriers with the right strategies. You know, but I think it's going to be very difficult to solve for just quick mass, right? It's size and, and, you know, sterilization requirements and instrumentation and all of those things factor in. So, you know, I'm not to say they can't do it, but that's where I believe distal motion has tremendous lag up, at least that, you know, initially, as we prepare for US launch. Okay. So what's your vision for this company? Where do you want to take it? Where do you see it in the future? Yeah, look, I mean, we're obviously getting ready for a huge market launch in the US. You know, but I think, you know, to kind of go back to our mission, you know, around accessibility of robotic surgery, you know, we think we have a formula to really drive to the benefit of the patient, really drive robotics into, again, new sites of care and into different procedures. You know, again, I've commented before that dexteries is really made for to serve these high volume low-acuity surgeries. We can always flex up. I mean, I use the example we do tons of prostatectomy and defrectomy. And we've done colorectal and we've done whipples. And, you know, we've done all the complex, but it was made to serve these these huge volume of surgeries that aren't being done robotically for one reason or another today. And so I actually think we compliment a lot of the things that are happening already in the trends in robotics. And we'll allow that to, you know, allow us to be a, you know, a market leader and maybe a very unique space of the robotic market. But yeah, I mean, look, we want to be a global player in the soft tissue, multi-port, robotic landscape. For sure. For sure. I'm into up to today's episodes to bring you a word about one of our sponsors, Fundamental VR. If you go back to season one, you'll find a great episode which events at the CEO of Fundamental on all the reasons why training in the virtual world can shorten the learning care and reduce training burden and costs. Improve competency at scale with interactive digital twins of your surgical robot or medical device in a high fidelity virtual environment. Drive commercial success with Fundamental VR's virtual reality solutions. So scaling up for a US market launch then you say it's going to be a big market launch. So what are the kind of activities you're doing and how are you trying to prepare for going to market in the US? Yeah, I mean, look, getting ready for any market takes quite a bit of work, but we started our hiring. You know, and I would say the one thing that we know is we want to make sure we delight every customer. So our priority hires are, you know, clinical hires, their service, logistics. So to make sure that we can get a product to a customer that we can support them in the right way. And again, like I said, we're going to be very deliberate from a commercial perspective. You know, we want to make sure that we're doing this the right way to build a sustainable, profitable business. So so being really deliberate about that market release, how do you select the initial sites who are going to be, I guess, the first delivery sites for four decks doing the US? Yeah, well, I mean, I think the one maybe one thing is obvious, which is they have to do already in Guinalgernia. That, but for me, it's a combination. We want to obviously showcase that we can drive high utilization. We want to make sure that we're aligned with the right academic facilities for training and education. So I think it's a combination of things and the other thing, which is what we just spent a ton of time on. We want to show we can do it at a new site of care. So that that is a huge part of our initial launches is, you know, partnering and working commercially with, you know, some of the large outpatient and ASC conglomerates or companies to prove with them that this, you know, this is the right thing to do for all, you know, all the constituents that we've talked about earlier. So kind of a three-pronged, you know, three-pronged strategy. So what are going to be the biggest challenges to this market release? What are some of the big barriers that lay ahead of you and what have you got to, I guess, overcome come into the US? Yeah, I mean, look outside of one company that hasn't been done in our space. You know, I know there's, you know, in and other robotic disciplines it has been done, but it hasn't been done in our space. So, I think just that inherently in itself presents a challenge. You know, as I said, I think we really complement the market leader in the US and in what they're trying to accomplish. So I think that is a benefit for us. But just building anything to scale. You know, I think this probably would resonate with you. And deeply, you have to find the right people. And when you're doing this as rapidly as we are, you have to balance speed and quality. And again, that's sometimes really, really difficult. You know, it's very easy to index to just put a body in a seat and we cannot do that. And then the second step is obviously building a high quality organization that knows how to serve, serve the customers in a highly complex environment. And that goes for everything. It's not just clinically, it's how you deliver the product. It's how you serve the customer. It's how you build an organization for the future. - Sure. And definitely treating the customers is one of the big things I know when we've worked together previously, it's been very focused on the customers, the customers, the king, the customers, the one who you're preparing for when you go to market. So we've covered so far your market launch into the US, which is upcoming, but Dex has been in the market now for a little while and you've just covered 1000 cases, which for any of our boss' companies and achievement and a great number to get to. So talk to me about how Europe's gone and I guess things have gone so far. - Yep, yeah. So great question. You know, one of the things, and again, you even see it with some of the launches that are coming out from more mature companies. I think there's a period of time where you're really trying to assess. And number one, make sure you have the technical components of the device, really, really rock solid. And when I say that, not from a safety perspective, but from a consistency perspective. So hardware and software, everything is harmonious and we're really at that point where we know we have a great, safe, effective product in every procedure. The other thing is, you know, where do we have a right to be great? And so, you know, we've done obviously in those 1000 procedures, we've done procedures across the spectrum in general surgery, gynecology, neurology. So now we know where we can really delight the customers. So that's one component. So I would say we've really started to commercialize mid last year. And then, now we have, well, where are we going? What are we doing? We are using Europe to drive our US indication strategy. So a lot of the accounts that you'll see are involved in the pivotal studies that we'll be presenting to the FDA. And that's very intentional in the procedures where we think we have the greatest right to satisfy both the customer and the patients. But also, we're really proving and testing out our segmentation. And again, I mentioned the word deliberate. We're also doing this in Europe. We're being very deliberate. You know, and again, we'll likely hit the gas a little bit later, but we're being very deliberate. So we're only commercialized in three countries in Europe, which is Switzerland, Germany and France. And we will start to expand that over time. But we have proved to ourselves, again, that there is this great need to make robotics accessible. Not only from a hospital perspective, we found hospitals, one of our largest customers in France. You know, never had the ability to acquire another robotic technology for, you know, again, all the reasons that we discussed. But we also have several customers that have multiple robots. But can't find ways to make it accessible, you know, in general surgery or gynecology or some of these other disciplines. And we've been able to come in and offer a complimentary technology to what they're already doing. You know, and again, for all of the benefits that we discussed, it's been really nice. So we see, you know, really, we've proven out what our beliefs were in segmentation like going out and doing it. And having our customers tell us, yes, this is absolutely the place to be focused. And this is where we think you fit best. So it's been a great, yeah, great success so far. And, you know, we really continued to hit all the metrics that we expect to hit with our launch there. - Great. And I would say that I, do you think that it's more surgeons coming away from laposcopy and coming towards Dexter who want to try and get into the robotics field but don't necessarily want to have to relearn all that skill set. Or there also the interest from the people who are coming off the mainframe robotics who have been out in the market a while and actually being drawn towards Dexter because it's getting back towards them or the, I guess, the core of what they trained for. What's driving that? - Yeah, I mean, I, well, I think you have a wave of, you know, surgeons coming out of residency fellowship that are trained in robotics, right? So you have this, you know, the new generation of surgeons, you know, and I'm gonna say for the most part or predominantly we'll be trying to implement robotics into their practice. But, you know, when we talk about the benefits of robotics and the ability to use risted instruments to, you know, to raise the bar when it comes to suturing, dissection, working in confined space because that's where laparoscopic procedures get very difficult. I think you will see some conversion. And the other thing is, as I mean, again, we learned this with Prost-detectomy, you know, converting from open to robotics is also a great opportunity as well. So you, you, again, if the system is not overly complicated from an adaptation perspective, you could bring, you know, that group along as well. So we actually think we, you know, will serve the surgeons that are coming out. And again, there are barriers why people don't have robotics that aren't just clinical. So they, you know, maybe they can't afford it, they don't have the ability to, you know, logistically to put in one of the current systems that are out there. But then, from a clinical perspective, again, easy uptake, you know, as I mentioned, from a training perspective, you know, the surgeon can be in the sterile field. And so, but also the resident or fellow can be in the sterile field. So you, you now see that just a more genuine exchange from in a training environment. So we can get, you know, not only the surgeons that are teaching have a better opportunity to get closer to that resident or fellow, but we actually think the uptick or speed of learning for Dexter may be faster because they're gonna have exposure both in the sterile field and on the console, which, you know, is it as easy when you look at some of the other systems? So a lot, I guess a lot there, but we've got a, you know, a lot of tailwinds that are gonna help us. But at the end of the day, Henry, I think we, everyone would agree, competitor or not. The goal is to raise the level of care and give the surgeons the best tools and surgery, to help that surgeon get the most optimal out-to-knot. And that's what soft tissue robotics does. You know, that risted instrumentation, three division, all those things, allow the surgeon to really have, you know, the best tools for those procedures. - For sure. And it's not as common in soft tissue for everyone to be talking about leveling up the field as a whole. There's a certain sector I look at, Vasquez surgery, new Vasquez surgery, where they're all talking about bringing up the field together, but you don't really hear about it in the soft tissue space quite as much. But this year is gonna be very, very interesting in terms of commercialization. Do you think it's gonna be a really messy, vassal ground, or do you think it's going to be something where the surgeon's just gonna be really happy that they've got options now? - I think optionality is always good. I mean, optionality from a innovation perspective is fantastic because I think it really drives us as companies to continue to iterate and innovate. I think from a financial perspective, it's gonna be great for the customer. And I think, again, from this empowerment or enablement perspective, it will be very good allowing, you know, end customers or hospitals to offer robotics to patients in different places. So, I don't, you know, again, I think we all agree that robotics is here to stay. I think you see huge trends and kind of growth in these spaces, especially the procedures and general surgery and gynecology that were focused on. So, yeah, I think it's gonna be great for the US market. And, you know, without, you know, I know you didn't mention any names and I, you know, we don't need to. I think different technologies for different, You're a problem. statements, right? And, and, you know, some of the technologies that you talked about, you mentioned, Moon specifically, I mean, you know, that, that is a solo assisted surgery. That's not really a robotic surgery, in my opinion, you know, from a RISDED instrument perspective by that definition. But there are going to be, you know, people that need that type of technology. And then when you want to get into the intraceurgical types of stuff, you know, meeting that RISDED instruments, you know, three-efficient components, you know, that's, you know, that's a robotic, you know, there are a couple solutions there. And, you know, where are we driving the surgeries? What are we going to do? So, I think optionality and competition is healthy. And I think the market can support several players, you know, so I don't think, I don't think there's any issues there. Well, that's good to hear that you think you can support several players after having just one player for such a long time. So it's, it's interesting to hear that. Where do you think this is going from an M&A perspective? So there's a couple of market conversations going on at the minute about some of the big guys acquiring some of the smaller and mid-sized companies and surgical robotics to be able to get in and compete for some of their core businesses and robotics in the future. So where is M&A going and where do you see it? Yeah, I mean, look, I think it continues to be proven that innovation can, you know, as maybe a bit more rapid outside, you know, of, like, you know, some of the larger companies. And when I see innovation, I'm talking kind of initial innovation to, you know, all of those companies are very innovative in their own ways. But, you know, there's, there's a lot more bureaucracy. You know, when you get to, you know, kind of the innovation that you need around robotic surgery, specifically in our field, I think it will continue. I mean, from a digital motion perspective, I would just say, we're golden. We have our head down. We're building a company to scale. I mean, that is, you know, we're not really thinking about that. We're thinking about how to put, you know, how to put a company out there that can be, make a difference globally. You know, that can be a major competitor in the global markets and right now for us specifically in the US and Europe. And then again, you know, come, come late 2526, other markets, other, other growth markets. So, you know, I, I, I would say I think it's always an opportunity. I think there are definitely given what's happened in the last six months needs from some of the larger companies to fill holes. But for, you know, for us, again, we think we fill a market need and we're very, very focused right now on that. Yeah, fair enough. I guess being in the position you in, you'll get a sentiment for kind of the interest levels from these. So have you seen an uptick ever since, I guess, the big market release of that big 800 pound gorilla? Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's a couple of interesting things there. I mean, you know, they obviously have a, um, an endoscopy or visualization standalone tower, you know, that was mentioned and, um, you know, there's, there's other kinds of nuances and technology. But no, I mean, look, I, I don't think there's many anymore uptick. I mean, I think the launch is what people expected it to be, you know, they got a great product. Um, you know, they continue to do things. Um, you know, that, that help and bolster their business. Um, but I, I think everyone really has a good sense of where the market is. Um, so I don't think anything radically changed, at least for me when that, we, you know, when that was launched, I mean, I, I think that's what I expected them to launch. Um, you know, so, so I'm, I'm, you know, my guess is, uh, you know, the companies in and around or the compete maybe in, in adjacent things, uh, with them probably felt the same way. Yeah. Brilliant stuff. So final questions round off our conversation today. So let's talk about the future of surgical robotics as a whole. So where do you think it's heading and where do you think the market is going? Yeah. I mean, look, as I said, I think there's tremendous tailwind, um, from a lot of different perspectives. So as, as you, you know, there are more market entrances, I do think it's, you know, you talk, you know, people always talk about hundreds of players and robotics. When you start to parse out the different specialties, you know, so when you think about multi-port soft tissue, there's really not that many, um, you know, that have the ability to expand globally, uh, so that, so the, the market is pretty small, but I, I see continued expansion, um, geographically, I see continued expansion from a side of care perspective, and I can, uh, I see continued expansion procedurally. So I think there's, there is going to be those three tailwinds and that from a, as I mentioned, a teaching and training perspective, at least the research that we've done, you know, everyone's vested, um, you know, the large academic facilities, you know, medical training, everyone's invested in implementing these types of technology into their educational programs. And I think that the federalists of residents are actually leading in on, on, being in those types of programs a long term. So, uh, you know, I had someone tell me the other day, they have 56 operating routes. They have nine, nine robots, uh, in those, so the way I look at the market is, okay, you know, if they, there are a lot of OARS that are right now not served by, uh, robotics. And I think by 2030, 2032, that's going to be more like half of those 54. So instead of going out, you know, it's, you know, you're really going to see, I think, a large infusion in some of these technologies, like distal motion are going to enable, um, you know, hospitals in physicians to, you know, have a greater adoption. So I think that the future is very, very bright. Awesome. Well, Greg, thank you so much for being against on the search of what's podcast. It's been a pleasure to have you.