Fleming & Root get England's Test roles. What now for Brook? Could Stokes return?

[MUSIC] There is never a dull week in English cricket. It's a big announcement this week of a new coach, Stephen Fleming and a new captain, Joe Rue. Well, a new old captain in Joe Rue, given that he's done the job more than anybody else already. But there is a heavy kiwi presence at the heart of the English game with Fleming joining McCullum and Tim Southe and Jeet and Patel. And they're not bad role models, I suppose. They're generally pretty good eggs with the odd exceptions. Simon Dool, how are you? Very well, thank you. A lovely introduction, F. Morning to you, Morning to Nessa. Morning to Nessa. Yes, Nessa, you're back from your month-long holiday. Where are you? I had five days off and in those five days you went rogue. There was no like WhatsApp saying Ness in your absence. Do you mind if I do Aaron Finch and talk all things whiteball cricket and franchise cricket? I just got messages, says the pod is not good, not as good without you, Ness. Please hurry back. So I'm back, I'm in Chelmsford, I've got a weekend of 100 action coming up. In London, actually, I got lords tomorrow, Oval Sunday. You're a Manchester for the game tonight. My manager's up for a game later on this evening. I came up from Cardiff, where I was on Wednesday for a game between the Welsh Fire and the Trent Rockets, when there was a plethora of nobles. It makes extraordinarily bad cricket from the home team. Anyway, we're not going to talk that, we're going to talk English, cricket and new coaches and new captors. As I start with Stephen Fleming, I think that was the big news of the week and the search for the coach finally ended. Do you know him as well as anybody? Tell us a bit about Fleming. Yeah, look, I mean, he was my captain through from, I think when Leedjamon lost the job 97, Fleming took over, still relatively young at that stage. I mean, you guys would have played that series in New Zealand and then again, I think now you played the series in England post that. It's a terrific thinker of the game. I think he was New Zealand's best captain. Probably since Jeff Howarth, there was that argument that Howarth was a terrific captain who played a lot of cricket. Sorry, didn't he? Jeff Howarth, but Stephen Fleming's ability to read a game, to understand his players, I think, was one of the biggest things that I took from him. His way of approaching getting players out was quite unique. He was one of the first guys I remember to use his strength. The way we took on the Aussies under his captaincy, the Damian Martin type players that loved to cut. It allowed them to cut. I think he was a couple of few of the players there. There was a lot to like about the way his manner was in and around the team. From a leadership point of view, it was an exceptional captain and a great thinker of the game. I think he transformed that through to his coaching career. He's developed a lot of seriously talented players in that Indian setup coming through the Chennai Super Kings ranks. I think people have said, I mean you guys have an opinion on it, I suppose, he hasn't done Red Bull coaching, but he's been an exceptionally successful coach over a long period of time. I think it's a good appointment. He's close with Brendan. So I think there'll be a nice synergy between the White Ball and the Red Bull setup. I'm sure they would have talked quite a lot leading into the appointment. I wasn't surprised. I think once they sort of ruled Andy Flaher out, to me there was only a couple of other options. He seemed to be right at the top of the list. I think it's a really good appointment. He's got a good knowledge of the county game and a good knowledge of English cricket. He played a lot here and been here a lot as well. I got a message from a mate in New Zealand saying that Fleming and McCullough are tighter than NASA's wallet. I mean, that's not entirely true. I bet you know, he came from as well. That's kind of a good thing. They got to work together. But I also think one of the challenges or one of the weaknesses of the McCullough coaching setup was actually the lack of challenge from time to time. I thought it was a strength initially and that he dragged everybody with him. But what he needed to be was challenge more consistently by the coaches around him as weaknesses started to show and limitations started to show. Obviously the fact that they get on McCullough and Fleming is a good thing. But they're going to have to challenge each other as well, aren't they? They are. I mean, especially next year, obviously next year is both an ashes year and a 50 over World Cup year. So you can't have the two of them against each other. And that's why I think if you have two friends, two people who've played with each other, two one person's captain the other, they're in business together. It's much better to have people of a similar mindset working together and trying to work through those challenges of schedule and when you want broke to be playing and when you want the multi format players to be playing which games are going to be playing in. So but I agree with everything. Dolly said that I played against McCullough against Fleming a lot and he was probably one of the best captains if not the best captain. I played against to be honest. It's calm demeanor out there is thinking is man management everything about Flem. I looked at Fleming and was in awe of him at times to be honest. I thought away went about leading that New Zealand and made that New Zealand side incredibly successful. Yes, they have some very fine cricketers, but he was right at the forefront of that sort of of that team and the way he led him. So I think it's a good choice. He doesn't tick every box very rarely do you have someone come in that does tick every single box and the biggest box he doesn't tick obviously. And I don't know if you think how much of an issue you think this is is that he hasn't done any red ball coaching. Is there a difference between white ball coaching? He hasn't done any international coaching either. What is the difference between coaching an IPL side very successfully for a number of years since 2009 to be an international red ball coach. I don't think there's any difference between red ball and white ball. I think coaching is about managing people and getting the best out of people and that doesn't change across formats. In terms of the IPL, I think coaching a franchise like CSK there are some similarities to doing the international job. The one is obviously the scrutiny and the pressure of an IPL franchise because it's a big thing there in India obviously. And every move is scrutinized and debated. And I don't think you're last as long as he did at a franchise like that was 18 years or thereabouts is coach. You don't last as long as that without a being successful and b being able to manage people in the right way. I think there's a subtle difference with the national side. I'd say coaching England to coaching the CSK franchise is the criticism. I mean, I think in India sometimes around the IPL although the moves are very debated and certainly debated kind of by the general population. I think the kind of key pundits are a bit less that they'll offer a bit less scrutiny around the decisions than perhaps happens in England where people just will will criticize if needs be. So I think there's a subtle difference there, but I think the general scrutiny and pressure is not dissimilar from leading a franchise to leading a national team. What about the gone duly sorry. I think that that's where Stephen will be very good. I mean, look, he's worked with us in the media a little bit as well. He's done a bit of television on and off in that time. And I think he will handle the media very, very well. He's very honest. Every time we talk to him during an IPL that CSK he's openly honest. They've won. They've had really bad years. They had a couple of awful years where they could hardly win a game. And he's very upfront. He's guy that will take that responsibility if the team aren't going well. He'll front the media. He'll do that job. And if the team are going well, then he leaves it to those that have done the job on the field, which is exactly what you want, doesn't it? And that's been the McCollum way. I mean, in the IPL as well, do you would you I mean, would you agree that the scrutiny and pressure is similar, but there's just a subtle difference leading a national team where I think the whole country is kind of more invested in how the team is going. And I think also following on from the last 18 months where you know, it was a great sort of hype and excitement wasn't there when Brendan came on board and I think at the time it was. was what England cricket needed. I think England cricket needed someone like Brendan McCullough at the time to unlock the shackles a little bit. I think it was a stale's the wrong word but it was a very uptight environment and almost players fearing for their place in the team and what Brendan was able to do was allow that freedom and at the end the freedom probably cost him the results. But I think for the first 18 months to two years you saw what England cricket could be and from that point on they needed some coaching. They needed some genuine coaching and strategy and maybe a way to move forward after unlocking that the ability that we all knows there. Oh there's so much ability in and around this country from a playing point of view but it just seemed like it was it was very much within and held in and so he unlocked that then the coaching was required and that's where I think they've sort of and the strategy and they felt short a little bit there I think Nass in the last 18 months and that's what has ultimately probably cost Brendan the job. That's now Steven's role to take those players and he mentioned in his sort of statement in the Harry Brook in particular who I think we all believe has got an immense ceiling but has probably gone downhill a little bit in the last 18 months from a test playing point of view. So I think that's going to be Steven's biggest sort of role and probably where he he puts himself at the top level. That's what I was going to ask you, Ritya. I mean firstly the character I think is perfect because I think it had been two. The other candidates was obviously someone I'd just in Langu that was being talked about. I think that would have been two bigger jump to go from the McCullum Vibe era to the just in Langu incredible intensity kicking over bins in the headingly dressing room sort of era. So I think he sits perfectly in the middle of that but what about from what you know of him and his time at CSK and how he was as a player would he be a technical coach. That's the other thing that's been leveled at the McCullum era was that there wasn't much technical coaching going in or will he have to bring in people that are more technical coaches. A little bit of both I mean as a serious earlier he has developed I mean what CSK have done so well over a long period of time is they've sort of bought this academy players through. They've developed young talent to players and Chennai over a long period of time. Now some of those have gone on to play at other franchises, good to see many auctions and major auctions and the likes because they had a vastly experienced team. So although those younger guys couldn't get through but he had a major role in developing a lot of that young talent that's come through the CSK sort of lower ranks academies and that sort of thing. So technically I think very very sound really understands betting. I mean you guys that we talked about you played against them. I think if he wasn't captain I think Stephen Fleming would have averaged mid to late 40s with the bat. I think we didn't quite see the best of him as a batter because he had such a high role as the captain of New Zealand and did a brilliant job of it but technically very very sound and and I think when you talk to Matthew Hayden for instance Fuff Duplacese who's been a lot of time there. Those sort of guys Murley VJ in the earlier days as well. They were so you know so adamant that Stephen had helped them enormously from a technical point of view and just understanding the game as well. So I think that's where he can take the thing from team forward and the combination with Joe is going to be an interesting one because Stephen was sort of at that place where he's probably New Zealand's best player which Joe is England's best player and takes on the captaincy role as well. So that's going to be the interesting dynamic I guess. I'm working and I mean my first question was what's more important to England cricket? Joe roots runs or Joe roots captaincy and you guys are probably way more equipped to answer that. Well come on to Joe root in a minute I just I mean because that's another topic in itself. Yeah interesting one. There's a couple of issues I want to just finish up around Fleming. I mean I made the quip at the start of this podcast about the number of Kiwis that are in there. I don't have a problem with Kiwis being in there by the way. But is it a problem that there are so few English coaches in there and English candidates I understand that they spoke to eight and nine people or interviewed eight and nine people for the role amongst them Jonathan Trot Richard Dawson and Garrett Batty's name was in there as well. But surely one of Stephen Fleming's jobs has to be that the next time this coaching job comes up that there is not the amount of head scratching going on around who are the possible English candidates. We have to build a stronger culture of English coaching around around the national setup don't we just I mean you know you I'm you know we've got McCullum Fleming, Jeet and Patel, Tim Southey what is going on the fact that you know we haven't got enough for as many English candidates in there. Is that a coaching is that Brendan's was that Brendan's job to bring in his coaching stuff because I think there's a there's an issue one on issue but there's something the ECB should be looking at. If they have point Stephen Fleming which they have now they should be saying to him your second and command must be English. So whether that is saying to him one of your jobs here is to is to create within your coaching setup a stronger English quality to it all so that there is a natural progression there when Stephen Fleming and Brendan McCullum moved. I'm not saying you you give it to an English coach but there has to be strong candidates in that conversation surely. Yeah I'd slightly disagree I would just say I've always just said pick the best people. Some of those could be but it's surely happened some English candidates. Unleashable Fleming's job is to come in as Brendan McCullum found out in the end and what did Brendan say when the results go against you that's when that's when you go and Stephen Fleming's job is to win games of test match cricket for England and the best way to do that and you know his job is not to worry about am the English coaches there are that's the ECB's job and the ECB need to maneuver it so I mean that we're doing the 100 at the moment am any EC am the English coaches are in the 100 they always seem to go for overseas coaches now you sold off some of the ownership of the 100 so it's up to the owners to decide who they want but I do see your point in the you can at times like English coaches have been sent out to the IPL to sit on the bench and to learn I do think there are opportunities to go and sit in and around the England dressing room and learn from some of these coaches but I do think their job is to pick the best coaches the best technical coaches the best coaches that the players want to work with and to win games of cricket for England and the bigger pictures for the ECB and obviously in English cricket a lot of the candidates go off into the media and there are other opportunities and also recently the facts tell you that the best coaches have been the ones that have been most successful whether it be Fletcher, Flower, Bayless and they've been you know foreign coaches so I think Fleming's job is just to start winning test matches again well it's to start as well at some point and it's on holiday now for the next three months shouldn't it be here well the process was probably it you know I mean I think we've all talked about the fact that if they were going to let Brendan go it probably should have happened straight after the ashes and we wouldn't be at this point now the way it happened after the New Zealand series whether that was an opportunity for him to try and keep his job and and clearly that didn't go well so they've left themselves in a little bit of a hole when you're asking a international coach with a family and to upsticks within two or three weeks and move himself to the UK I think is probably was probably a bridge too far I've heard that he might be in and around the Pakistan test matches and just allow Marcus just gothic to do the job for the interim time is that correct but have you heard that that's going to be the case? I mean I think he's probably going to take the opportunity to have a look and see what's more and I don't actually have I have a problem with that I'd much prefer to get right on it but it's quite similar isn't it nasty 1999 when Duncan Fletcher was appointed and he he had a job to finish with Glamorgan so we had a shambolic summer on the your cap wait for Duncan Fletcher to come in and turn it all around six words in the right order but just just look like the right names but yeah listen it it I was going to say it's very similar not not just that but also Duncan was worried about his test match coaching because he'd never played test match cricket so he was a bit more worried about red ball cricket than white ball cricket and then like you say Duncan was had this job and he was very loyal down at the Glamorgan but he was involved behind the scenes there were funcals with me there were meetings at old traffic when the wheels were coming off and he was very very involved so I'm sure Flemish and it's actually not the decision of Stephen Fleming Stephen Fleming is offered the job he says yep I'd like to take the job but I've spent X amount of years 18 years away with the IPL I have promised my family the next three or four months is that okay So the decision really is Rob Key. And when once Fleming says that, Rob Key, that has to say, "No, that's not okay. "This is the job. You take it next week "and you're there for the Pakistan series." Or, "No, that's fine." So Rob Key feels that's absolutely fine. But I do think with all these other decisions, surely Fleming must have been involved in who's gonna be the next captain in Europe. And surely Fleming will be a huge part of all the decision making. You do want selection. Now you don't want players coming in now that Fleming sort of sit in their game. I'm not so sure about that. So every single decision right from now, from Fleming's appointment, he has to have a massive saying and massively involved in. And even if he's not there in person, he needs to be running the show from a distance. - So how does it work with a New England system then from a coach's point of view? Now that Steven's been appointed, does he choose all of his backroom staff? Would the ECB have these contracts in place with Triscoffick with the Juden Patel? With, I mean, I know Tim Sallies was a series by series contract. It wasn't actually a full-time ECB gig. All of those, all of the staff, under Steven Fleming, how does it normally work in an ECB situation? - I think it's a bit of both, isn't it? It's the conversation. I don't actually know the ins and outs of each. Each person's contractual arrangements, but that's gonna be a conversation, isn't it, between Rob E and Steven Fleming clearly. With the split coaches now, which is what we've gone to, it's never really worked for England before, but I believe in split coaches, just because of the scheduling and the challenges. But the key to that split coaching arrangement is first of the person who sits above them, Rob Key, allowing each of these coaches a kind of even chance of success, if you like. And then underneath each of those coaches, to build the support staff that they will work with, 'cause again, even England's schedule, I think it's very tough to just have the same people across formats. I think each coach needs to build his own team. So I think that will be part of the conversation between Key and Fleming as they look to reorder that staff. And there is an opportunity, therefore, for some of those English candidates, whether it's Troc Dawson, Arathbatti, whoever, to maybe be brought in under Fleming under McCullum, whatever to start to build slightly distinct staffs with an element of an English field to them. [MUSIC] Hi there, I'm Pete Graves. And while you're enjoying this show, I just wanted to let you know that we are back with another round of Transfer Talk. We'll be talking about who's on the move, where they're going, what they could bring to your team. So if you don't already, please like and subscribe. You can watch three-sky TV on YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you soon. [MUSIC] Well, it's probably a good moment to turn on to Joe Rue, then because obviously Fleming has got a fair few things in his intrate of sort out. The first one was around the conversation, around the captaincy. The gone for Rue overbroke. I mean, the choices were pretty thin. I described Joe as the least worst option. I think he's the right choice, but it's not necessarily an appealing choice. No, listen, I'm sitting here now thinking, what does Harry Brook think right now? Vice captain of the test match side. When Stokes was disciplined and banned for a game, they couldn't give it to him. It's sort of made out. It's an interim thing. We're going to give it to Joe Rue in this time of trouble. And now Stokes has gone for good. They have to make a decision. And your Vice captain is overlooked. Now whether Harry wanted it or not, with a schedule, and that's a different thing. Forget the schedule and forget World Cup year and dashes. But specifically, did he want the job? And if not, why not? As I've always said, it's the best job in English cricket. But English test match captain, he would have it across four months. Been England cricket captain, best job in English cricket. Why didn't he want it? If he did want it, why was he overlooked? And then he's got to look at himself and say, why was I overlooked? Because actually asked, and you may disagree with this. And I know this is one subject we're not quite in the same page with, is that I think Harry Brook is a very good captain. When I watch him in Whiteboard cricket, he's now taken him to number one in the T20 rankings. He's just beaten India in the 50 over series. It's affected his batting in a good way. He looks really the responsibility, but with the flare and all these shots, he's got, he has a great body language on the field. You watch him, you know, who's in charge of England's Whiteboard? Quickly he's become England's Whiteboard captain and he's doing it very well. But obviously with him, are all these off-field antics and that sort of immaturity that you need the mature Harry Brook to come out. And it's been lacking. And that's why I'm a little bit disappointed in Harry himself that I think there's a very good captain in there. And I think it's a missed opportunity. And one of the things in Fleming's intray will be to sit with Harry Brook and dolly mentioned the batting side of it. But actually saying we've had to go back to someone that may not actually want to do it. The lad that will do anything for English cricket in Joe Roo is doing it again for English cricket because we couldn't trust you to do the job that sought yourself out, Harry, because I think you should be the next England test cricket captain. Well, I think to Harry Brook playing under Fleming will be a good thing because Harry Brook has only ever known Brenda McCollum as a coach. They obviously get on fantastically well, Brook and McCollum. And my view was that you had to leave Brook with the Whiteboard leadership. But I think actually playing under a different coach would be a good thing. It might just broaden its horizons and giving him a sense that there are other ways to go about things. Because as I say, he's only ever known Brenda McCollum. I wouldn't have given it Brooke. I would have left Harry Brook to lead England's Whiteboard cricket. And therefore, you couldn't give it Jacob Bethel because he's 22, although Stephen Fleming himself was only 23 when he took over the New Zealand job. But I think Bethel's got too much to prove and it's too soon. And that leaves you with Joe Roo, which is-- and that's why I describe it as the least worst option. It's not the kind of option that's jumping out at you. But given the alternatives, I think that's where I would have gone as well. Can I ask you? You wouldn't have given it to Brooke. Is that because you don't think Harry Brook is a good captain or you don't think he's mature enough to be England test match captain? You're not Ray Harry Brook as a captain. I rate his tactical feel for the game, but I think captain's is about far more than that. I think actually the tactical feel to the game is not unimportant. You need to have a tactical feel for the game. But I think captain's in leadership is about so much more than that. It's about getting the best out of your players. It's having a feel for driving an organization forward. And I don't think he's shown enough of that yet. And I also think as a three-format player, captaining across three formats is simply too much. He is along with Joffa Archer, I suppose, and Jacob Bethel at the moment. How many three-format players are there? There are not many. He's one. He's leading across two. I think if you give him as you describe the most high profile, the most precious job of all leading the test match team, I think that's too much. So you put all that together, a combination of too much of a workload and a burden and a responsibility on him. Plus the fact that I don't think he should have it right now. And I'm not giving it in. Do not think people can change. I mean, I hate talking about myself. I hate talking about myself. But all these things were leveled at me when I went into the interview for the England Cricket Capsoncy job. I know what was said to various people at the ECB. Stay clear of this individual. He's an angry youth. He doesn't think of other players in the dressing room. He will let you down. People, I had to change because I became England Cricket Captain. I agree. He is not a team. Yeah. I think people can develop and change. And you have to give people the opportunity to do that. And he's got that opportunity right now. He is leading England in T20 Cricket, which is about the only side that is functioning well at the moment. And he's leading in England in ODI Cricket. And we've got a 50-over-wheel cup next year. So it's not as though I don't think Harry Brooks should be leading some elements of England's cricket. He's got, he's captaining two of the teams. And they're two important teams. And there's a World Cup coming. I don't believe that adding to that burden right now is a sensible thing. I think playing under Fleming will give him a different perspective and will allow that growth and maturity that you're talking about. So that in a year or two's time, if you then need to look at that job again, then there might be an opportunity for him to do it. Yeah, I agree in both ways to be honest. I think it would be very, very good learning under Stephen Fleming from a captain's leadership point of view. And just his man management will do Harry Brook, I think the world are good. I think it's some possible nass at the moment in World Cricket to Captain all three formats. I just think that the work load, so from your point then, would you have him leave the T20 or leave the 50 over stuff when they're going so well? Do you honestly think it's possible to kept an all three formats at international level with the the scheduling? On the maize that. And maybe it's all future, future tours planning. And I never know with the ECB how far ahead and what all these things are said. The two things on the maize that one is with schedules is that they still play ludicrous games of cricket in a format that there is no World Cup. So or just before the ashes last time they're playing a white ball series in New Zealand randomly or this summer you would have, you know, it's a World Cup coming up and you have five T20s against India and three ODIs. It's like that's the wrong way round. So firstly I think that needs to be looked at. But from now onwards, because the next World Cup is a 50 over World Cup, we are predominantly playing 50 over games and then we'll look at the T20. And secondly, you're captain, Harry Brook, you're captaining in the 50 over side and you're captaining the test match side, because next year I'm not downgrading anything else. Next year the two most important thing for English fans are the 50 over World Cup in South Africa, Zimbabwe, Nimbria and the ashes. And the T20 side they can do what they want. Jacob Beffel, future planning, we talk about future planning, we go choose future planning with leaders. Jacob Beffel, you take that T20 side and do that for a little while. So I do think you have to think out the box a little bit. Is it that difficult? I mean, Graham Smith at a very young age did everything. Michael Atherton at a very young age did everything. We've all done it, captaining your country for a World Cup and an ashes. We've all done it. It's like, yeah, there's certain players, players are in one part world and you will miss the odd game. But for me, I'm still old school with your England cricket captain. And leave all the other stuff. Leave the, you know, for Fleming to sort out all the selection and all the bits that you have to do. But just rock up and captain you side. I think schedules of vastly different to how they were when we were around. They added format of T20, just the amount of international cricket. There is the amount of. Yeah, cricket out there. We're touring. We're sitting on our back sides, mate. We were there playing cricket, captaining counties. I know, but if you look at England's touring, shout your list winter, for example, you know, that they're in Australia for Whiteball cricket in November. They're in South Africa for tests and then Whiteball cricket over Christmas and New Year. They're in Bangladesh, then for tests in February. They got a one-off test match against Australia. It's a wholly different kind of a scheduling to how it was where you'd have, you know, one major tour when we were playing with a bit of test cricket and a bit of Whiteball cricket thrown in. Anyway, that's a different issue. What he's got to. Another Fleming's challenge is how to replace Ben Stokes, a fast bowling all-rounder. They're not. Well, there's no light for light replacement, necessarily for Stokes. My view is that they'll have to pick a spinning in English conditions. They'll have to pick a spinning all-rounder to enable them to keep four seam bowlers in there. How do you see that? Well, we watched Round Armoured last night. To me, he needs a lot of work on his bowling. But how do they find. How do I find someone to really work hard on his bowling between now and the ashes next year so that he can be a Redball bowl? I think he's highly talented with the bat and I think in that sort of position, you'd say, there's no reason why. I think then pick the bowling. The quick bowling all-rounders as well that can actually better, but at 6.78 you can kind of have any three different players, right? But if Round Armoured can take one of those spots, if his bowling is good enough, he to me is the best batsman of the spinning, of the spin bowling all-rounders that you're talking about. But how in eight months, nine months time can they make sure he is ready to go to bowl 15-20 overs in a test match day and good enough to land it in the right spot more often than not. That would be the challenge there. Outside of that, you've got better qualified spinners who don't bat quite as well. So it's a tough one to look at where they go. I would personally work really, really hard on Rehan Armoured because I think he has a future. Bad none for Chorri Bashier, isn't it? I can't see how in the absence of Stokes, Chorri Bashier gets in the side because you're going on that extra seamer in England, so your point is an excellent one, I think. You're a fan of Calvin Harris and you'd go ahead of Chorri Bashier. I think he's the best Red Bull. Sorry, I had a round on it. I think he's the best Red Bull leg spinner that there is and he's a fantastic slipkatcher and can bat pretty well. So I'd certainly have him in the conversation for sure. As you say, that's the way around Stokes. I think it's an opportunity there for at that point to say, Chorri Bashier, thank you very much. You go for a spin bowling all round, which enables you then to keep the four fast balls, which is essentially where you win test matches in England in any event. Who are the options? Who are the two rolling all rounder options? I mean, a broad depends where you are, isn't it? In India, if you need three spinners, then it's a whole different conversation and how you reshape the team, but I was just thinking particularly for the three test matches coming up against Pakistan and maybe down the line. Do you think with Root has kept in the fact that he and Ben are unbelievably tight and the ashes on the horizon. What do you think? What do we go through at Trembridge, those two days? I mean, the fan affair of the announcement midball, mid spell, mid session, mid test is all going to be switched around and turn around. Listen, one thing you're, I guess you're in charge of is when you retire and I guess on the back of that, one thing you're in charge of is when you unretire. Ben's done it before in Whiteball cricket, so who knows that was such a fanfare for that retirement. Ben, you always have to make sure mentally more than anything, you know, I do want to come back. If you're done, you're usually done, your body, your mind tells you I'm done, but who knows what's in the future. I think England has got a plan for life without stokes and then be surprised if he suddenly picks up the phone or Joe picks up the phone and says, "Ashes, you know, lol, lol." Grant, well, one person we haven't heard from actually throughout all this is Rob Key, the invisible man, but he is speaking this morning at lords at 10 o'clock. I just reiterate that this podcast is being recorded. What is it now? Oh, 937. 937, 20 minutes before Rob Key speaks, well, for the first time in a long time. So this is predating whatever he says. Was he not on a holiday with you, Ness? That you're golfing together. Thankfully not. But by the way, Dull, I noted the other, how lucky are you on that 100 fantasy league? How lucky are you? You are ahead of me and you only had me. I had Sam Curran as captain this week. My absolute banker. You had him as vice captain. And I turned up with the oval and the news was that Sam Curran isn't playing. Can we just sort of make the point here? When you say I had Sam Curran as captain as in yourself, do you mean the bloke that picks your team? Had Sam Curran as captain for you. Well, is it about time we gave Simon some credit here for picking your team? That's a lie. I'm going for four in a row. So watch out. I'm at about 80 points behind you. I was so disappointed yesterday. So I need to get my team captain Sophie Mollanyou hadn't got a wicket. I know. And he bowed at last five and got two wickets. I was throwing things at my telly. What's your back? Who's he kept in this weakness? I've gone. I think I've gone ash gardener. I should tell you just because the deadline is still about six hours away. But I think I've gone ash gardener as well. I think I've gone then. Affiton, you don't do all this nonsense, do you? Well, I was tempted to put it in AI this year and see what right button was. I couldn't even bother to do that. Great to see you. Good luck in the next game wherever. I've got what have I got? Nottingham. Sorry, Birmingham tomorrow, Nottingham Sunday, hittingly Tuesday, Manchester Wednesday. Fantastic. Nashur and London, I'm the greatest ground of them all. I'll preffered this afternoon. Looking forward to that. And we will be back probably ahead head of the Pakistan series to do another podcast just before that. [MUSIC]