Fleetwood Mac's "Dreams" with Sam Sanders

Oh, one, two, three. Hey, there we go, and live it's us, the guys from one song. We're talking dreams by Fleetwood Mac. It's luxury, Diallo, and our friend Sam Sanders. Watch us carefully break it down here on On Air Fest. K, C, R, W, On Air Fest. And if you love this song, sing along. And what you had. And what you lost. I think you guys know these lyrics. The what you had. Everyone together. Here we go. And what you lost. Wait, are we doing it now? Let's do it. That big-ass chorus. Thunder only happens when it's raining. Players only love you when they're playing. Say, women, they will come. And they will come. And they will go. When the rain washes you clear, you'll know. You'll know. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You'll know. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. All right. On Air Fest. Let's go. Y'all surprised me with that. Oh, thank you. Welcome, y'all. It's great to have you here. It's so fun to see real people. Yes. Welcome to KCRW On Air Fest. Thank you, KCRW. Thank you, On Air Fest. In conjunction with Heartbeat, one song, and our good, good friend, Sam, here. Hi. For those who don't know me, I'm writer, director, actor, and sometimes DJ, Diallo Riddle. And I'm producer, DJ, songwriter, and songwriter. Thank you. And guy who whispers interpolation, luxury. Hello. And new KCRW DJ, every Friday at 10:00 PM. That's right. That's right. Can I just say, as a friend, two masterful episodes already I've heard. And you're doing such a good job. Today, we're so excited to be doing this show in front of a live studio audience at KCRW On Air Fest. We're going to be diving deep into one of the most hauntingly beautiful breakup songs of all time. Any of y'all been in a breakup? Make some noise. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. This is the song that reminds us all that players only love you when they're playing. And women, they come and go. Apparently. Or when they're riding a skateboard with a bottle of ocean spray. That's right. Let's not forget that seminal moment. We're talking one song, and that song is "Dreams" by Fleetwood Mac. Yeah. I can only have those when it's raining. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. You never get tired of this song. And yet, are you a little tired of this song? Never. Never. Never. Never. Well, we're going to break it down. You're going to hear it like you've never, ever heard it before. And here to help us break this song down, as we sang, we've invited a special friend of the pod. He is a big Fleetwood Mac fan. Please welcome award-winning reporter, radio host, and podcaster extraordinaire. Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam Sanders. Thank you for having me. Thank you for coming on the show, Sam. We really appreciate it. Yes. I mean, when y'all asked me, I was like, "Okay. I like these guys." And they were like, "It's going to be Fleetwood Mac." And I was like, "Okay." And then they were like, "It's going to be Dreams." And I said, "Yeah. I'd pay you to do this." It's one of the best songs of all time. One of the best songs of all time. Yes. But there are two songs, favorite Fleetwood Mac songs of all time that you have, right? Oh, yes. You've stated many times. Why? Is it neck and neck between this one? What's the other one? Tell the audience. The other one is "Silver Springs," which I think is the emotional sequel or continuation of "Dreams." And with both songs- She wrote it. She wrote it. She wouldn't let it get on the album. Exactly. She waited for 30 years to get that song. Yeah. She waited for 30 years to get that song on a Fleetwood album and then made him perform it live with her. And you can see the two of them locked in a visual embrace the whole time, and Stevie's like, "I won." Yeah. She kind of won. Yeah. What I love about Dreams and Stevie and Fleetwood Mac is that they are, at their best, the platonic ideal of white chaos, white rage- I like it. Good night, everybody. That's the show. We're going to talk about it. We could. We could in there. They do this thing that I wish all white people did. When they're feeling messy, Fleetwood Mac turned the mess into art. What a great way to live a life. The mess was music. Now they turn it into podcasts. Real quick, Sam, by the way, I heard that that was her after she heard "Go Your Own Way." Oh, yeah. That was the answer to it. Yeah. That was her answer. So those two songs, Dreams and Go Your Own Way- What Tupac had was "Hit 'Em Up." That was her "Hit 'Em Up." Yeah. "Hit 'Em Up." Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's also beautiful. It's like her version of their breakup was Dreams. His version was "Go Your Own Way," and it just proves this universal truth that there are many truths when it comes to a breakup, and all of these truths can be beautiful. Yeah. I don't know. It's like the best way to do a breakup, Fleetwood Mac. Right. Sam, how did your love of Fleetwood Mac begin? I grew up really Pentecostal, and so all of my music appreciation- And education had to kind of come secretly when mom wasn't home, because my dad didn't care. But very early on, VH1 kind of raised me, and behind the music was a big part of my education, and I'll never forget the Fleetwood Mac behind the music. Yes. It's a classic. It's an absolute classic. I was like, "How are these people so messy?" How many of you guys have seen that episode? It's so good. If you remember that show, that's sort of the ultimate episode. Yeah. That's the one. Yeah. I could hear that opening drum lick and I would know right away. Just, oh yeah, I'm in, I'm there. You can talk about it. And I've had the experience of showing young people in my life or playing for them for the first time, Dreams, and you watch the moment when like they realize it's perfect and you're like, oh, this is, this is why we're here on earth, to tell young people about Fleetwood Mac. It really is a perfect song. It's 48 years old, this song, and it still feels fresh. It never gets old. It never gets old. It feels like it's captured a real moment, both in the relationship of Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham. That's the he that we've been mentioning so far. We'll be getting deep into the stories of these people. But it's also the whole band, there's a lot going on. 48 years later, you can still feel the tension in the song and in the beauty of the song. Oh, yeah. And it's a very simple song. When she first wrote it, I think Christine McVeigh was like, this song is too simple. It's three chords. Where is the melody? And it's perfect in its simplicity. So people really think that the drums on this song are particularly haunting. And they're very haunting and hypnotic because they took, I want to say, eight bars of the drums and just looped it. That's it. That's wild. That's incredible. It worked. It puts you in a trance. We're going to be getting deep, deep, deep into each of those layers. We'll be playing for you the isolated drum tracks and the bass and the vocals. But we'll be getting into that story in particular. Because you're absolutely right. That contributes in big part to the hauntingness, the hypnotic-ness. Yeah. Real quick, I want to ask, how many of you, I'm going to play a video for you real quick. How many of you know this song? Because we've got some younger people here. I see some young faces. How many of you know this song from this viral TikTok video? Wait, wait, that's not the right one. Oh, cut, cut. We can't embarrass my friend like that. Come on. All right. Let's watch the whole thing anyway. God, that's not the video we wanted. I'm so glad you didn't injure yourself. I almost died. I almost died. It was worth it for the comedy. That was beautiful. I've never ridden a skateboard in my life. Wait, can we play the proper? I don't know. Yes, there we go. There's the one. Nathan Apodaca, a.k.a. Dogface. So COVID era. It's so COVID coded. And, like, it speaks to the power of this song. This is a breakup song. This is a heartbreak song. And the boy is just, like, vibing and cruising into it. He's just vibing. That's how good this song is. Drinking his Ocean Spray cranberries. Yes, yes. It's incredible. It's already like a pop culture classic right there. Oh, listen. COVID-coded. Before we dive into the music, we thought we'd have a little fun with a quick round of Fleetwood Mac trivia. First question, are you ready? All right, that's not the first question. First question, true or false, Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham joined Fleetwood Mac almost a decade after the band had been around. yes that is true that is correct and in fact for those who don't know fleetwood mac was a going concern for a decade before lindsey and stevie joined in 1975 and they started as a british blues band and by the way they were good and they were good actually really good that's absolutely green wrote the first uh black magic woman made more famous by uh santana but they had they had hits they had yeah let's play one of them this is one of my favorites even though i just said they were notoriously or well known for being a blues band my one of my favorite tunes which you may recognizes this one, which is on the more chill side. This is Albatross. Before there was Krongbin, there was Albatross. This is what they were playing in Ojai, in every hotel in Ojai. I was going to say, this is like Desert Road riding. It's so Desert Road riding for wealthy people. Play too much of that, people will fall asleep. Soporific. That's a Soporific tune. Dinsmore is 80. John Dinsmore is 80. Okay. John Dinsmore, The Doorsman. All right, well, I got question number two for you, Sam Sanders. Yes. All right, so the band, as we've just been discussing, went through previous incarnations before the famous Five that we know to this day. Yes. Do you know how many guitar players Fleetwood Mac had? In their illustrious career, can you name? I have no idea, but I'm going to say seven. That's a great guess. Super close. Actually, I stopped counting at eight. Okay. But with founder Peter Green, there was also Jeremy Spencer, Bob Welch, Rick Vito, Billy Burnett. Bob Welch. Of course, Lindsey Buckingham. Yes. And Mike Campbell from Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers has come back and forth taking his place when Buckingham has recently been booted and then been reintegrated. Campbell was his replacement for a while. All right, next question, true or false? Christine McVie used to write reviews for a music magazine before she joined Fleetwood Mac. True. Unfortunately, this is false. I told you I was going to nail you, man. He got you. She was already an established musician when she joined the band, so you'll get the next one, I'm sure. And fun fact, her maiden name, do you happen to know this? No. This is for my dad who's in the audience. He loves the fact that Christine's maiden name was Perfect, so she was Christine Perfect. And yet she changed it to McVie. There he is. To me, you hold on. To that last name. Mistake. All right, we got next question coming up here. True or false? Every member of Fleetwood Mac was either divorcing, breaking up, or having an affair with another member of Fleetwood Mac during the rumors era. That is very true. This is very true. Just for those of you who don't know, Stevie and Lindsey had broken up right before the making of the record. Christine and John on keyboards and bass, respectively, the McVies, had divorced. Mick started an affair with Stevie during rumors, the drummer Mick Fleetwood. Cheating on his wife, Jenny, and Patty Boyd in the process, whose sister Patty Boyd was cheating on her husband, George Harrison, left him for Eric Clapton, and that's how we get Layla. What? Yes. Also, there should be a rule. If you are in a band and you're having relationship issues with other folks in the band, you have to stay in the band. Because then you make rumors. Because then you get these beautiful, perfect records. You can't break up. Yeah. Well, you can break up, but you must stay together. It would be wise not to break up for the sake of the art. Yeah. Yeah. Every band should have to stay together throughout the show. Peripheral question, not on our question list, question for you. I've been thinking about this. I'm obsessed with it. Yeah. Is Fleetwood Mac a British band? No. Or are they an American band? They're American. I think they're an American band. America loves Fleetwood Mac more than anybody else. But it was founded in Britain by British people. so was America, kind of, if you think about it. All right. Fair clap back. That's a nice one. That's fair. That's fair. Next question. Were you on Fleetwood Mac in the war? In the Revolutionary War of 1975. It was written. Yeah. All right. Do you know why they called the album Rumors? Well, because of the rumors. It's not. It's very close. Yeah. We'll give it to them. So John McVie, yeah, let's give it to them. 100 points. Four out of five. Four out of five. Someone out here is keeping track. John McVie suggested the album they were making be called Rumors because they were all writing songs about one another without actually admitting it. But he called it out. You can literally go through the entirety, you have the track list. We've got Go Your Own Way, Secondhand News, Never Going Back Again, all Lindsay versus Stevie. Yeah. Stevie claps back. By the way, fun fact, was dating Dunn Henley at the time. Dreams, Silver Springs, I Don't Want to Know, Gold Dust Woman. But Silver Springs didn't make an album until the 90s. That's right. Fair point. Fair point. So that's kind of like an also rant. One of the reasons why I kept it off the air, he was like, no, not that one. Too much. But let's not forget that we had Christine McVie as a songwriter. The third songwriter, breaking up with her husband, John on bass, wrote Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow, is about John. Wow. It's not about Bill Clinton and a better tomorrow. It's about John McVie. Oh Daddy is about Mick leaving Jenny, the aforementioned Mick Fleetwood leaving the Jenny Boyd, that other relationship. And then she wrote You Make Love and Fun, not about John McVie, but about her affair with the band's lighting director. What? That's right. That's right. Lighting directors. What were their signs? Hooking it up. Hooking it up. I see you, Jack. Okay. What were their horoscope signs? That's a great question. I don't know. I have to know. If anyone knows, just yell it out. Would that solve everything? Because I have a theory. All right. Last one, Sam. That's a hard one. It's a hard one. True or false, this song was originally called Spinners because Stevie Nicks thought it sounded like a song by The Spinners. Really? Sure. No. It's true. Oh, wow. It's true. Luxury, can we hear? Yes. So Stevie Nicks, apparently, she first wrote this song. She was vibing on the two-chord vamp that we'll be talking about a little bit later. Yeah. And in her mind, she's like, oh, that, yeah, that kind of reminds me of that Spinners tune, which I will now play for you. Let's see if we think that there's any connection between them. The Spinners. Huh. You know what? I get it. I love when this happens. My favorite of this happening. Yeah. When Prince was about to record Purple Rain, he called Journey to be like, I think this song, the chords sound too much like Faithfully. Like Faithfully. And Journey was like, it's okay, dude, make your song. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Good answer. Also, I love this tangent. Dave Grohl says that all of his drumming from Nevermind was just the Gap Band. The Gap Band. Fucking amazing. But I thought when you brought up Prince, I thought you were going to mention the fact that he's probably the person playing keyboards on Stevie Nicks' Stand Back. Really? Oh, he is? On, yeah, Stand Back. Yeah, that's him. She heard Little Red Corvette and they like, she was like, I love this song. And then they connected and like Prince ran to the studio and laid down all these keyboard parts like that. Laid it down. Laid it down, though. Leave it there. And when you go back and listen to Stand Back now, you're like, I can hear the Prince. Yeah. The Prince influences. Let's get our tally. You got three. You are officially a Fleetwood Mac fan. Should we call you a Big Mac? What do we call that? Oh, Fleet Heads? Fleet Heads? Call me a Rumor. Oh. Yeah. Everybody's like, oh, nice one. Yeah. Yeah. All right, guys, so if you're new to Fleetwood Mac, as you might have guessed from the trivia questions, this is a band with quite the storied and, yes, dramatic career. So in the Rumors era, the lineup consisted of, as we've mentioned, founding member Mick Fleetwood on drums, John McVie on bass, and for those of you who didn't know this, that's where the name comes from, Fleetwood and Mac, as in McVie. So that was the rhythm section. When John brought in his wife, Christine Perfect, a.k.a. McVie, it was all British, and I guess the crossover into Americana happened when Lindsey and Stevie joined. Lindsey, according to the tale, they had just recorded Silver Springs, and he saw Mick Fleetwood, and Mick Fleetwood happened to be, I believe, listening to Silver Springs, and he liked the sound of it. He said, oh, that's my tune, if you dig it, you know, I'm glad you like it, and then later got a phone call from Mick saying, would you like to join the band, and famously said, I would love to, but only if you bring my girlfriend. Wow. So Lindsey and Stevie were a pack and a package deal, and that's how we have the iconic lineup that we know and love to this day. Why isn't there a reality show that recreates those dynamics? Like, you bring musicians who the judges know have been, like, sleeping together? Do you find, do you find couples, I'm sorry, do we find couples that are fucking and then make them do music? Can I say that on a fair play? You just did. It happened. You just did. I'll start using my Warren Olney voice. Or do you find, like, great musicians that get them to sleep together? Both. There's two houses. Then after the season, you flip the houses and you make it all crazier. Did you get, like, people sleeping together who are really bad musicians? Yes. I love it. Yes. So the five of these wonderful individuals recorded rumors at the record plant in Sausalito over the course of a year, and things were tense, to put it mildly. As we've mentioned before, everyone's relationships were falling apart, and they were literally writing songs about each other. While still showing up to sing beautiful harmonies together. So when we get back, we're going to take a quick break. But when we get back, we're going to hear not only Stevie's beautiful isolated vocals, the amazing musicianship, we will also hear Sam tell us why this song has stood the test of time. When we get back. Welcome back to One Song. We're about to dive into the stems of dreams. Pinned by Stevie Nicks. The story goes, she wrote it all in one afternoon, tucked away in Sly Stone's room at the record plant. While the rest of the band was recording, Stevie sat alone in that room with a keyboard and came up with this hypnotic spell of a song. Stevie said, quote, I found a drum pattern, switched my little cassette player on, and wrote dreams in about 10 minutes. Isn't that always the way? It's always like, yeah, I wrote that, you know, we wrote that last song. It was a thriller. Also, the room was wild. She said it was a black and red room with a sunken pit in the middle. And a bed. It was a piano and a big black velvet bed with Victorian drapes. What? The 70s loved a sunken pit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like all the relationships in Fleetwood Mac. Sunken pits. The sunken place, exactly. We don't have that first demo, do we? We don't have that first demo, unfortunately, but you did allude to this great quote. We do know that it was very simple. And wonderfully, Christine McVie says, when Stevie first played me on the piano, it was just like, just three chords and one note in the left hand. And I thought, this is really, boring uh but then the lindsey genius came into play so lindsey helped her develop the song and this by the way just to remind everybody not only had they broken up but like stevie broke his heart and the song was about him yeah so he's like i'll help you this is a big act of artistic generosity to participate in like turning this two chord thing that christine was rolling her british eyes at and turning it into the masterpiece that we know it today and we'll be getting into that in just a moment in great detail um what either of you make a song with an x i don't think so that's just too intimate i mean you can be so vulnerable sing it damn it it could be a power trip it's true yeah you take control yeah it'd be like an abba situation actually that's literally what abba was sing it yeah we are going to now play for you an early version of the song as it was known at the time as spinners this is an early take as according to the story they ran about 24 takes and then the last one they thought was perfect so we're going to hear a little bit of i don't know which take this is but you will recognize some things and some things will sound a little bit different that's pretty fully formed as a song but it's just three layers of music and just sort of like because it's fun for us obsessives there's one like lyric that ended up changing later so i'll play it for you see if you can identify the lyric that changed right crystal changes crystal vision is so like iconic it also feels like this version is really just hanging on two chords lindsey's final version that's three it feels like it barely does the third one we're going to get into that but you're nailing you're nailing part of it but part of the magic of i think what the whole band was able to contribute to the core idea which was so solid yeah is to give it it was really that third chord that made it cohesive feeling yes but i will also weigh in and say that maybe it's the dj and me these drums sound way more prominent um than the drums that eventually filled it like this honestly feels like a disco remix of yeah it's super hypnotic and you're right it's a little less pop sounding and more dance floor but there's no bass there's no bass quite yet well let's get into the stem so mick fleetwood plays the drums plays the congas i've forgotten the congas in this song oh i love the congas they're pretty buried but they're there all right so let's start with um the kick and snare was recorded separately from the hi-hat and i'll explain to you what that means the hi-hat and the toms and then you alluded to it there's a whole story about the hypnoticness that was amped up with a very clever ahead of its time recording technique but here's mick fleetwood so that's both tracks but here's just he overdubbed the hi-hats and snare and was just playing kick and snare separately and then they merged them together for the final and it's super sparse super simple let me tell you you mentioned it so let's just jump into it that loop in 1977 if you wanted to have a loop yeah like what today would be a drum machine or a splice loop yeah and you throw it in there and you copy and paste it yeah back then copy and paste meant cutting with like you got 20 feet of magnetic audio tape yeah you got 20 feet of magnetic audio tape you got eight guys around the studio to get that 20 feet because they had to pull it tight so they had microphone stands and they were like their arms were up and they're holding their breath for four and a half minutes recording one eight bar loop of mick fleetwood getting it perfectly for eight bars wow and then that was that's the basis of the entire song yeah so this is in 1977 this is kind of it's a hip-hop technique it's a breakbeat i also love the opening it's like it's telling you get the fuck up you're about to hear dreams every time i hear it i'm like sonar it's off let's go let's go there aren't too many other songs that start off like that i know that song in one second yeah it's a signature motif yeah and that was overdubbed i believe because for the four and a half minutes you just have this bedrock yeah bat boom bat and then he went in mick fleetwood went in and overdubbed all the fills that are so iconic and they give it the interest so that it isn't just simply a hypnotic beat hypnotic is great but hypnotic after a while is soporific it's back to albatross land which is great too great song sleepy too you got that word that's a great word very impressed so a lot of by the way full credit we on our show on one song we like to give full credit to what we call unsung heroes heroes so ken calais wrote this great book called making rumors super detailed super nerd fest i highly recommend it it's just about the making of this record and that's how we get some of the detail about eight dudes and microphone stands and 20 feet like those details that we know and love on this show all came from him so he's a co-producer and the father of colby kaya as well by the way i was wondering yeah i kept seeing that name okay same dude same family yeah yeah one of the things i like the most about the drums of this are the are the congas play that for me because i didn't even because because i because i if you listen i mean like those congas and i do believe it's pronounced congas thank you melissa is it congas melissa taught us to say congas correctly it's not congas california congas can we hear a play some congas it's mixed in with some other stuff it's one of these tracks that's a little bit mixed up but you'll hear them in the background along with um i believe some organ and some cool lindsey weird sounds but how hard is it coming oh there it is super background there it is that's in the song yeah so that's a b3 organ played by christine mcvee that's what the high sound is yeah but then those little swells that are coming in and out are lindsey playing guitar with his fingers finger picking because he doesn't use a pick so that's why it gives it a very soft feeling and it's all going through like a leslie speaker i never heard the congas so much that's so funny because maybe because i have been a drummer i always notice those congas in there yeah and you'll you'll hear them now that you know that they're there they're louder in some parts than others yes for sure yeah really post second verse uh okay let's talk about the uh what's there do you just say him and b3 well they're both in there let's start with the roads though i believe it's stevie playing the record credits it's one of those things where two names are on there so like who did what is not always clear i'm pretty sure though given that christine mcvee has talked about the origins of the song it was weird to her that there was just this f bass note the whole time you'll hear that christine is playing two chords the whole time the entire time but she's interestingly not moving the bass along with it you'll hear it and it'll make sense here it comes stevie nicks fender roads see how the chord goes up but the bass is still so we're already in super hypnotic lands and that's the whole song by the way so good in the chorus she changes it's beautiful because it's like it's it's it's never given you resolution it's no resolution you're nailing that low fender note is hanging tension on the floor which is just a note of no resolution there's no five it wants to go to three i like where you go with this yeah and you're just hanging there saying yeah that's heartbreak bit i'm glad you said that stay in it no resolution no resolution you'll never be resolved you'll never be resolved we won't keep saying this all the time this is structurally it's such a weird song because like usually like a song like this would have like some crazy bridge that was like almost like a different song but like this song literally it starts she sings the verse they go to the chorus it starts over she's singing the chorus it starts over she's singing the chorus it starts over she sings one more verse one more chorus like when you finish that first verse the song is halfway over both literally and figuratively it's like about 202 and the song's like 404 so like yeah it's just enough and like you said it's left unresolved totally unresolved let's move to the chorus and here's some more unresolved and there's a drone that gets added uh i'll just play it for you and then we'll talk about it that's yeah you hear it she's sort of switched she's like the high part of the five yeah the bass note is now changing it's going on chord is not changing yeah she just flipped what she keeps the same and that's essentially the whole of you can hear like her anguish is like girl let me do this there's more than two chords in the world let me do this and then finally because we've all been alluding to it there's this really crucial bridge so this is the setup for what will be the punchline will come later so to speak but this bridge is the moment as you were saying the midpoint of the song first chorus bridge middle eight eight bars first second chorus that's the whole song very simple and it's the same two chords the whole time in this bridge in the roads she just keeps doing the same thing and that f is still nagging it's like this nagging it's like her she won't go away he won't go away that f is just nagging and persistent yeah so that's that's the setup we'll resolve that in a moment because somebody saved the day another unsung hero of the song gives us the third chord that only briefly appears in the bridge but it's not there yet and in the what's interesting about going back to the demo is in the demo it didn't exist yet either so our unsung hero is a band member who's like i'm gonna play one different note just momentarily breaking up this unresolved tension and then we'll get right back into it for the last half of the song yeah yeah well let's listen to some uh christine mcvee on uh interestingly enough you may not have noticed she plays the vibraphone in the pre-chorus i'll play you a little bit of that by itself and then i'll build for context and then we already teased this a little bit before but then you can hear her b3 organ playing in that section let me see if i can find you like a new a new version of it here we go that high note is is the b3 organ high organ vibraphone it's like the roy aires episode it's super roy aires it's also 1977 these are the instruments of the of the era well and also like the beauty of that song is that like all of it works so well together you don't hear the pieces you just hear this wonderful wall of fleetwood mac yeah it's so it washes over it washes over you and if you were if you would ask any fan of that song name all the instruments you hear in this song they couldn't do it yeah they couldn't do it that's the beauty of it yeah so let's go back to lindsey for a moment because as mentioned before when stevie handed her demo to him and played it for him for the first time and some of his contributions were very simple at first it was just a basic acoustic guitar not dissimilar to what i played at the top of our show but gradually over time because they it was 1977 and it was lots of money for the budget so many months of overdubs they were in sausalita but they also did some in la and what emerged was this really beautiful strange swells and bends that are sound more than they are like clearly a guitar i'll play some of that for you and of course you'll recognize it because it makes the song very early on what it is melodically i should say before the vocals come in this is the melody it's very like it's foggy no well he's playing guitar but he's playing with his fingers okay and between that and some other treatments i believe there's a tremolo i believe there's my there's certainly a leslie there's all of these effects basically on the guitar guitar that contribute to it not sounding very guitar it sounds like sausalito sounds very foggy like sausalito i'm norcal that's super good can i say yeah man if there was one thing that that made me not listen to this song yeah it was probably this time really didn't like that i love that part oh here's the thing uh i grew up in atlanta this one element sounded like country music i was gonna say it's very national and i ran to the other when they would do the grammys they would like present like the country war my mom was always like bathroom break wow why were we such haters but in our defense country fans of the south were not into us see i love a good steel guitar moment i'm all about that no no i love it i'm like no i like it no i like it have you heard a shibuzi let's give a little more shine to lindsey because of the beautiful things he did in the pre-chorus which is where we heard that vibraphone before he does this and as always i'll build after i play it by itself he makes it walk so we get to that third chord we're going fg to a minor and then back we're teasing the a minor yes yes we're teasing the a minor and i promised you to build you know what's so interesting as that happened i was like that sounds like a train wreck but it's in the song what he's doing is building he's rising the chords are going up basically yeah and so is um in the vibes so is chris but stevie is not and so there's a little bit of a rub which is why i love doing the show yeah because for music producers and songwriters out there the demonstration that some of the most iconic songs of all time yeah have like things that are imperfections imperfections yeah technically not wrong but like to your ear here i'll just play with you what i'm talking about here's the roads and then when i add those other things you'll be like is that right because she's just playing the two chords but these guys are rising it sounds great there's nothing wrong with it at all what do they in interesting we're in it's kind of f major seven yeah to g6 ish in the chorus but there's also like that e drone going on in there which makes it the f minor seventh basically it's super tense chords yes that cycle through one bar per chord the whole song without resolving until our unsung hero yeah our unsung hero comes into play and that's my man johnny mcvee who starts out innocently enough with two notes johnny play us the two notes little eighth note anticipation little fills but that's it that's how he keeps himself awake for four and a half minutes of the two notes i'll give you some drums just so we get the and can i just say the bass is i you know we always say on the show fight me it's the best part of the song this is the best part of the the bass does a thing in the second verse that i absolutely love oh man i feel like you're you're building up to that well i'm building up to the bridge and what happens in the bridge we're building up to that in this whole episode it's been a three it's been a teamwork to get this bridge idea to this moment yeah yeah you've arrived at the right time i'm ready if you've just tuned in what the hell was that we're all in the same room the whole time yeah i don't know what i was saying but i do know this when we get to the bridge we've been hearing just those two chords i'll play you stevie she's playing this still playing that stevie with a nagging f naggy naggy naggy but i'll play what john plays and then i'll put them together so john goes up to the octave in the bridge and right here he goes to a but that's it resolves that's it for a second one quarter note and then da da da he's like you think you're over this heartbreak you're not he's playing this a note just for the one quarter note and then he returns to briefly but i'll in the mix i'll bring back those other instruments it has this magical effect yeah of you momentarily can breathe out it's like when you've been arguing with somebody and then you briefly have like a moment where you like start laughing together oh yeah that tension was released for a second that's actually not the part i was thinking about oh really there's another part in the second verse oh i know what you're talking about do you know what i'm talking about and he kind of rides with her a little bit also hearing this play especially when the bass comes in you realize this song is always faster than you remember it yeah it's 120 bpm yeah it moves it feels like a 112 right it's a disco beat and a disco tempo yeah and this is like a heartbreak song like it's a love ballad but like it moves it's moving it's moving it's pulsating that drives you man it's relentless yeah like stevie here's the part i think you're talking about yeah and i will tease a little stevie just because it's pleasant you're right you gotta you gotta hear with her john is basically playing what she's singing so i'll play it alone and then we'll hear it together here it is love that little part love that little part hell yeah john do you want to hear it do you want to hear i don't know why i said it like that but it does get me amped i love that but you can hear how they participate how they how they collab in this little moment that's a good bass player that's a city listens to the vocal it's so good isn't it that's good and he only does it once in the whole song yeah such restraint such restraint i know i would have been like just do the whole song would have been way less special he can't do more of that because that would take you out of the trance fugue state of the song yes no i know trust me they rejected my my suggestions there's a dance break in the middle and we modulate up a half step then there's a flash mob that baby is talking he's not even one okay honestly what makes this song really stand out uh for me is the powerhouse vocal performance to me it's what it's it's such a huge part of what makes it a multi-generational hit we have stevie's isolated vocals and let me say when we opened the stems we were surprised that the first thing we heard was not her singing but it was stevie humming can you play some maybe the uber fans already knew this i never noticed it i don't think i know you'll never hear it again without noticing this at the very beginning before the verse she does this i never noticed that she does that twice and then she sings verse one and it sounds like this here we go now here you go again you say you want your freedom Who am I to keep you down? Lindsay does a thing right here. It's only right that you should play the way you feel it. But listen carefully to the sound. I hate stopping things in the middle. Believe me, that was painful. But we should talk. We should talk before we move on. Thoughts, feelings. I saw some people just really feeling it right now. This is the beauty of a really great vocalist. They sing what is actually a difficult performance, but they sing it so smoothly that you think you can sing it. I don't know what you're talking about. The really amazing thing about this song, as soon as anybody hears it, in the first listen, by the second chorus, you want to sing it too. Her voice is inviting you to sing along with her, which is wild because no one can sing like her. She is one of the truly greatest vocalists. And she has such a distinctive voice. The quality is, you can't, all of this breakdown is useless when you get to the human voice. It just is Stevie Nicks, and it has a unique, you can use words like rasp, and you can use words like witchiness. But you can't really nail down any, there's a language for it. No, the language is spite. If you listen to the vocals, and think about the context in which she's singing this, she is singing, a song about her ex, that her ex helped her fit. Yes, arranged. Then the other girl in the band was like, "I don't like your damn song anyway." And the whole time she's singing it, with lungs of steel, and the wings of an angel. She is steely with spite. I hear it, I hear it. To build on what you were saying too about the first two, it's A, A, B, C of the first four lines. The first two are roughly the same melody. And it hooks you in because it's simple. Yeah. ♪ Da da da da da da da da da da da da da ♪ I can do that. It's called conjunct, when the notes are so close together, and they're sequential. But then, what does she do next? ♪ Da da da da da da da da ♪ And you're like, "Whoa, how do I do that?" Your average layperson cannot hit that. Yeah. ♪ It's only right ♪ And she doesn't struggle at all. When she's walking up to that jump, she's just like, ♪ Da da da da da da da da ♪ And she's like, "How'd you do that?" It's spite. Yeah, just get up there. Spite is the answer. I just also want to say, you have to remember, when the band went to hire them, they were hiring one person. They thought they were hiring Lindsay. And the fact that Stevie-- And then Stevie was the star. And then Stevie's just like-- He literally said, "You have to hire her, too." Where Buckingham Nixon had been the album, but she stole the show. She stole the show. As we move on to the pre-- Pre-chorus. Yeah, let's keep going. Keep noticing how few notes there are. Pre-chorus is, again, three notes, about 80% of the time. And you're also not getting a lot of rhymes. You're getting a handful of near rhymes. But you don't even notice. You're so-- Between the chords being cycling through the two-bar loop, you're essentially distracted because of her voice, because of the spite in her voice, because of the lyrical-- There's all these other things, but it's not really rhyming, and it's not really repeating melodies very much. Without further ado, let's get into the pre. ♪ In the stillness of remembering what you had ♪ Let me throw in the backgrounds. ♪ And what you lost ♪ ♪ And what you had ♪ And there's a big stack coming up. ♪ And what you lost ♪ ♪ Oh, thunder only happens when it's raining ♪ Fun fact, no fewer than two people, as we were rehearsing the song, were like, "Are you sure that's the right note?" Because I wasn't really nailing it. But it's really in the stack. It's a three-part harmony. Well, and then there's a moment when she's walking up to the chorus where that high note is lingering on the five, which is not a note you would think to hang on, given this chord progression, but it works. And it's like this siren call. It's incredible. It's momentarily-- Yeah, there are moments-- This is a three-part harmony that's basically-- I think it's root, third, fifth. But a handful of times we diverge from that, like you're saying. We get a jazz moment. Yeah. Or a gospel moment. Yeah. And it's all Stevie, right? No, it's not. I was just going to say, perfect. Thank you for teaming up. The blend-- We do this. The blend is the three songwriters in the band. It's Stevie, Lindsey, and Christine. Christine. Christine, RIP, you know-- Yeah, passed away a couple of years ago, I believe. So Christine McVie is singing the third. But live, I think she sings the lead. In case you were wondering, I thought that fact was important enough to stop the show and spend nearly five minutes on it. We live in the weeds on this show. It's true, it is a weedy show, to be fair. Hearing you introduce the chorus, it reminds me of my favorite reality of this song, like the most popular lyric of the song is a lie. It can thunder when it's not raining. Wait, what? I've thought about this. No, I'm so glad you brought this up. That's a lie. Not true. That's a lie. Not true. Team Lindsey on that one. I'm from Texas. We have like just like weird weather all the time. It just be like thunder for no goddamn reason. It never dawned on me. Yeah, but it's such a it's it's delivered so beautifully. Do you think they noticed that that was the case? And therefore, I'm sure Lindsey knows it was like steamy. It's just like, fuck you. No, because maybe singing the song. There you go with your illogical lies again. Only because it's one of those songs where like the title of the song is not the chorus. Exactly. Theoretically, the chorus might have been thunder only happens when it's raining. Maybe they're about to press it and send it out the door. And someone was like, wait a second. Hold on. This is going to throw some people because it's a lie. It's a lie. You know, maybe maybe players love things other than playing. We don't know. Who knows? Dreams just distract them with dreams. That'll distract everybody. Does she sing the word dreams? It comes up once. I think twice. I'm going to say in the second verse. Have you any dreams? She brings up dreams of something. Have you any dreams you'd like to sell? Dreams of loneliness. Yeah, so that's not the chorus. That's not the chorus. You can do that, though. It's okay. Do you guys want to hear one more? Let's get into our chorus and then into the end of the song with that last little bend. Let's do it. Oh, thunder only happens when it's raining. Let's give you a little bit of isolated Chris and Stevie. See, I'm vindicated. That's what I was singing. Yeah. I'm vindicated. Say when they will come and they will go. Nobody attacked me. Hearing the way they sing this. It's very country, my dude. It's super country. I didn't want to say it because I can tell the audience has already turned against me. The three-part harmonies are country. The three-part harmonies are country, and so is the guitar, right? It sounded like gospel country. Yes. Also, the way they sing "Women," it's like, "Women, they will come and they will go." Did you hear that? Women. Women. Women. They will come and they will go. They come and they go. It's going to be a George Strait song. I didn't have the Pentecostal upbringing. Play it again. Play it again, play it again. Listen for it. Say women. Women. Okay. All right. Women. Okay. Women. Women. I hear that. Oh, she heard it. She's singing it right to Lizzie. Yeah, she heard somebody say that. Women. Women. We're going to have to sweat up here, my God. I know. It's the hot light. That concludes our stem portion. That's what we got. That's the stem portion. It's a good stem portion. Yes, give it up. Give it up for the fabulous. Fabulous five, son. We're all feeling the feels here. We've heard the stems. Tell us, Luxury, how do the song splits break down? 100% Stephanie Lynn Nix. There you go. She didn't share anything. Good for her. It's just her song. Good for her. Sam, after going through these stems with us today and really immersing yourself in dreams, what do you think the legacy of Dreams by Fleetwood Mac is? The legacy of Dreams and the legacy of Fleetwood Mac as a band from the very start was finding creative and collaborative partners that you trust enough to create with through every emotional arc. Everyone. I think we have not had a band like that since. I know so many bands from my youth that had a good run and broke up because they were fighting or had a good run but broke up because one of them broke the other's heart. Fleetwood Mac. Fleetwood Mac said we will go through the breakups and the fights and the animosity and we will still make music together and we will still help each other perfect their songs and we'll perform them together for decades. That is such a beautiful way to approach your art and to approach collaboration with anybody else. That is the pinnacle of artistic trust. I trust you enough to be happy around you and sad around you and to sleep with you and to not sleep with you. And to love you and to hate you and still make songs with you. No one does that anymore. And when I think of the ways in which conflict musically has changed in our modern era, like imagine if today artists who had beef with each other said, I'm not going to put you down. I'm not going to fight with you. We're going to make music together. Imagine if Drake and Kendrick had to look each other in the eye and perform a song together. To look at each other in the eye and like imagine Kendrick saying to Drake, here's how you make that diss line about me better. we'd all be better and richer for it right i think and so like i don't know i i listen our mp3 collections are poor for that having that right yeah i totally agree yeah and so like i listen to fleetwood mac and listen to dreams and i enjoy the music and i think it's sonically beautiful but i think it's even more beautiful for the story it tells about um emotional endurance with creative partners we need more of that luxury i want to ask you the same question what's the legacy of dreams i mean that was really well said i will say that one thing that strikes me thinking about stevie nicks is how she never went on to like have you know children or kind of music was her dreams is her baby music and songwriting is her family and creativity is what she is in the world and she's made a lot of sacrifices perhaps she doesn't think that i don't want to like push that on her that you know her value is only clearly we are richer on this earth because stevie nicks has chosen music over everything but there must be part of her that feels that that choice has led to things that she didn't do and that she doesn't have in her life we can only wonder she seems quite happy but it's such a sacrifice she sacrificed everything for her music yeah what about you i had a pre-written answer i'm tossing it out no seriously this conversation is but i after immersing for like you know the last couple of days and weeks i think this is a little bit out out of there lindsey and stevie were in a relationship and they were like they were hippies you know like they were living in san francisco and i think i read somewhere where he said i think if we hadn't started making music together we would have lasted as a couple but the fact is is that they went from being extremely broke to extremely famous in six months which you know to throw that into a relationship i and it may not be fair to them but i see them almost as like these avatars for like that hippie generation that fell in love in 68 and 69 and then they try to make music together and then by the mid 70s and i always thought of the 70s as sort of a weary decade anyway like you can hear sort of like a weariness of like the the the the free love and the drugs and everything has started to take its toll six and seven years on and you can see all of that in microcosm in this group you know people who fell in love with the blues and rock and they started making music but then all of the excesses by 1975 and 76 and 77 have started to take their toll so whenever i think of that generation of of of free love and and and the hippies i always do sort of think we saw it a little bit more here earlier on their fest you you sort of get this sense of like yeah that that wasn't sustainable you know the the parts of it that were that were beyond the the the intellectualism all that stuff it wasn't sustainable and i i sort of see that in microcosm well and the part of their story that lingered the most was the story of the unsustainability like the story of the heartbreak that's what lingers of them not the stuff before right you know it's beautiful in this tragic way being vulnerable and throwing that pain into the music is what has made this music uh generally very time there's something everybody write songs with their exes do it that is the lesson that is there's almost something on the nose about how this song perfectly embodies and remains 50 years later a song that is unresolved about an unresolved couple in an unresolved situation with unresolved chords and yeah the it's almost too on the nose and perfect musically what they did in the song but it is demonstrates the effectiveness that we are still talking about it and it still has the magic that it has literally half a century later this is half a century old oh yeah okay well before we end the show sam we want to play a game with you we already played again a second game uh it's called what's one song here are the rules we'll ask you a question you'll give us a one song answer you have a minute to respond to as many of these questions as you can so please don't overthink it answer as quickly as possible let's begin what's one song that never fails to make you emotional i'm a millennial robin's dancing on my own oh nice always what's one song you wish you could have been in the studio for hey yeah what a weird fucking song they broke up the time singers are estranged what's once truly what's one song that's uh taught you something about yourself herbie hancock's recording of the jazz standard my ship go and listen to it what's one song that you think is underrated you're just talking with a lot of those songs are actually good i was not expecting name one name one wow did not see that what's one what's one song you low-key know all the words to that's just nice and slow that was great singing all those words that's a great song what's one song that you'll always dance to no matter where you are boom boom all right thanks for being here everybody give it up for sam sanders this is so much fun this was a blast i love this i hope we can do this again with you again you know we'll figure out a way let's do tusk next time okay underrated album good underrated album okay well listen uh thank you so much sam as always you can find our team on instagram and tiktok you can find me on instagram at diallo d-i-a-l-l-o and on tiktok at diallo riddle you can find me on instagram at l-u-x-x-u-r-y or on tiktok at luxury xx and where can we find you sir at sam sanders only instagram i don't get the tiktok i think me too yeah it's too much but i will also say that you can follow our podcast on tiktok and instagram at one song podcast for exclusive content you can also watch full episodes of one song on youtube and spotify just search for one song podcast we'd love it if you like and subscribe also be sure to check out the one song spotify playlist for all of the songs we discuss in our episodes you can find the link in our episode description and if you've made it this far you're officially part of the one song nation show us some love give us a thumbs up and we'll miss five stars leave a review and send this episode to a fellow music fan it helps to keep the show running uh that is it for us today where's your catchphrase oh gosh i forgot luxury help us in this thing hi producer dj songwriter and musicologist luxury and i'm actor writer director and sometimes dj diallo riddle and this has been one song we'll see you next time this episode was produced by melissa duenas our video editor is casey simonson our associate producer is jeremy bimbo mixing by michael harman and engineering by eric hicks production supervision by rizak boykin additional production support from z taylor this show is executive produced by kevin hart mike stein brian smiley eric eddings eric wild and leslie guam