Flavio Briatore on crashgate, Schumacher vs Alonso, and winning the title for ‘a t-shirt maker’

[Music] Hi everyone and welcome to Beyond the Grid with me, Tom Clarkson. We have an absolute cracker of a guest view this week. In fact, during these dark days of the coronavirus, how better to pass the time at home than listening to one of the sport's biggest characters of the last 30 years? The guy I'm talking about doesn't do introductions, so let's start the show by guessing who I'm talking about. Here are a few facts. He's Italian and he grew up in a ski resort 70 miles northeast of Monaco. He started his working life at the Milan Stock Exchange where he met a fashion icon for whom he'd later work. His friends with Donald Trump. He became the commercial boss of the Benetan Formula One team despite having no experience of Formula One whatsoever. And he quickly became Team Principal of Benetan and the rest, as they say, is history. He won world titles with Michael Schumacher in 1994-95. And several more with the rebranded Renault team and Fernando Alonzo in 2005-06. I'm talking, of course, about Flavio Breitori. Flavio occasionally comes to races these days, but we hadn't had a proper chat prior to this podcast since he left Formula One more than ten years ago. It was great to catch up and on this occasion, we met at Flavio's office in Monaco where he runs his various businesses. You might be familiar with the billionaire and crazy pizza brands to name but two. The walls of his office are adorned with pictures of Flavio and Formula One, especially him with Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonzo. His was an incredible F1 career, but you must remember that Flavio sent ripples through F1 when he first arrived. The establishment didn't like him. After all, how could an Italian t-shirt maker beat the might? The Formula One royalty that was Ferrari and Macchiron. Well let's find out what happened. Now those of you who can remember Flavio from his time in Formula One will know that his English is heavily accented. You have to tune into his enunciation. Do that, and I promise that what he has to say is worth it. And to help you, I've split our conversation into bite-sized chunks. I started by asking him about his incredible journey from the fashion business to running the Benetan Formula One team with not only no history in Formula One, but seemingly no interest in it either. At the time, Benetan was being run by Peter Collins or Phil Collins as Flavio called him. The first race was Viglociano Bennett or was Edel Ait. Had you not seen a Formula One race? Prior to that. That was Adelaide 89, doesn't it? And we see only the qualifying. After the qualifying, we fly to New York, so basically, was my first experience to see the car. And what, can you remember what he thought? Nothing. You know, I deleted the time, it was like a camping, if you remember. It was a tent, it was a marquee for the team, etc. I asked Luciano, much, what's spending to do with all this stuff. And I remember at the time, at the time, the cost of Benetan Group to sponsor Formula One was around 7 million pounds. And it was the last money to be the last, because Benetan was the last. And Luciano loved, you know, Luciano, I see Luciano really loved him today. We go back in New York, we were talking a little bit about Formula One, etc. But this was a sick finito. So the trip to New York was to continue your duties, working for Benetan in New York. And I was working for Benetan in New York. And I was the kind of assistant Luciano Benetan in all the travelling. So we travelling in every play from Singapore to Argentina to Malaysia. Luciano was really incredible travelling to open the new shop, etc. Whose idea was it for you to go and run? No, they did, no, they did, no, I'm sure. It was a Luciano Benet idea. After two years, I believe I've seen all these Phoenix situations. Luciano is coming to me again in New York. Now we are more free, because you know, you know, you know, it's a benefit day by day shop, etc. etc. Why, you know, coming to UK, I never been in my life at the time. UK, to help me in this place, in the commercial side, because, you know, we are not happy. We spend a lot of money, we are not as old, we have a whole family. You go there, you tell me, you know, we close. So I go there, I met with Fikonis, and sure, he was not happy, because he did not understand what it was my role. So I stayed there one week to Maruchano, somebody from the office of Benet, or Fikonis, Fikonis, to give me everything I asked about money, cost, etc. So after one week, ten days, I fly to Treviso. I tell Maruchano to Maruchano for me, "Are you close?" Or really change the management, because if people look like he's working for the, is the government company, you know? So Flavia, you had ten days experience of Formula One, and you felt confident enough to say that the management needed changes. But you feel it, you know, you're going one place, where you're going one restaurant, you understand immediately, if it's the energy, if it's working or not. Then you see what's a scramble, nothing. And because Benet so much Italian, you know, if people need the 3 million, and ask 3 million, and it's 5 million, and it's 5 million, you know Formula One. If you give it 10, the people ask you 20, if you give it 20, ask you 40. Did you say the management needed changing with a view? We already thinking I can do that. No, no, no, no, no, at the time, no, because really I want to go back in New York. I am already the offer from Donald Trump to, to, to working in America. Hang on a minute, stop. Donald Trump, asked you to work for him. Yeah. In what capacity? Well, capacity was in the commercial side in the New Casino in Atlantic City. We have a discussion. And you know, a place with Donald Trump, we have a, I remember I take Luciano Benet on to Sidona, poor. I remember I remember I remember in 1991 and 1992. You know, just Donald bought the plaza. And remember we are sitting in the office of Donald, the Donald and Luciano just bought the plaza. I connected Luciano Benet and Donald because sure was something, something supposed to be doing together, but you know, at the time Donald was not in the politics, was in any place. And after that, I am always very good relationship with him, and at the moment he needs the side for doing their practice in Italy, he won me. After if you wanted to show you the video, he won me, I mean, I know my nobody has, I want Flambio Bariatore. Don't Trump, that's amazing. That's amazing story. After, after, so yeah, yeah. So basically after I left and after, we spoke interviews, I remember interviews, I was the guy was in charge of Benet on formula, but I was speaking in language, was Luciano, was the brother, he decided to talk about my opinion, this place, all you close it, because the register, you know, says Luciano, register. In five years time he was, he put 70, 80 million and the result is being like that because he was no vision about the driver, about the young driver. I mean, the question is, ah, the good driver is not coming to us because we are not enough money. The good engineer is not coming to us because we are not going to pay. I talk about why you know tell Benet about that, they close it. If you don't have the money to do that in the meantime, you spend seven million pounds of Benet, you tell them, you tell them, you mean that they mean and call it if you are not in the same line. You're in Pita Collins, no? Yeah, we Pita. Yeah. Because Pita was, the classical motor racing fans and this and that, winning was not in the mind because we just set up the people, the Benet having, was not, nothing to do with winning and if you talk about, okay, maybe we need different driver, you've been on a demonic for the driver, maybe we need the instructor of a better engineering, ah, we don't have the money. It's always a decision, let me tell you. So, was your message to Benet on, if I had to go to get more in it or out of it? No, no, no, it was simply, well, I was not interested, okay, I'm done for favor because you know, for me, family, Benet, it's time, my family, you know, I told Wiluciano every month that Wiluciano was with him him two by two weeks ago. So, the idea was, I knocked, I, the set up you have is the disaster. You have any pressure to this people, these people we've whatever fit to do and no motivation, no energy, nothing. So, we left like that, okay? One month later Wiluciano back in New York, we walked in New York in 15 minutes and you know, probably it's been a night, if you go a few months in London, forget a London, this place is not in London, he's a three hour London, he's a foggy with this, he's a disaster. But in London, Wiluciano was different, we talk about London, it's not in London, it's in the middle of nothing. So, at the time I was living in New York, I had the house in the, in the Carimane, you have, I put him at the right place. So again, tell me, give me a favour. I go back down. How long did it take you to feel that you had your feet under the table and that you knew what the business of Formula One and did you feel that you had the acceptance of, I don't know, the other team principles, Bernie? No, Bernie was really after this understanding about Peter Collins. Bernie, we're talking a lot about Bernie because Bernie seemed very commercial orientating. Bernie was thinking about, you know, Flavio is not the guy talking hour about the clutch, about the gearbox, so he didn't be called nobody care. We're talking about why we spend the business, why we found more sponsor, what we didn't do to attract the sponsor, why can we do it in the races, etc., etc. to have more enjoying life to people's sponsor. Why we didn't bring in the sponsor, the sponsor because it's dangerous, the sport is dangerous, we had the star, we have Senna, we have a, we have a Nigel Manson, we have, at the time really we have a pilot with the big boats, you know, we have a really men, you know. Now we have people of 17th, I mean the car, at the time you're talking about the gear, you're talking about the, the irritant, it's about the PK, Nigel Manson. Do you think you taught Bernie a little bit about the commercial side? You don't need to teach anybody, but at least we have the same idea in million times, you know. Million times we discussed with Bernie and not forget Luciano Bennett was always really, really present with me. I was talking with him twice a week and Luciano Bennett's amazing all the time idea about the market and this and that and that. Luciano Bennett was finally the team was there. So sometimes we finished six, sometimes we finished seven, sometimes we finished three, and after we have the race winning in Japan, you know, in Japan for us was very super important. So at the time I was stronger again because in my, my job was okay, it's not so difficult. So Flavio was now a team boss, but how was he accepted by his F1 counterparts? It's fair to say that in particular, he and Ron Dennis, the boss of McLaren, had very different management styles and that was bound to lead to the odd clash. Because everybody is calm, you know, I remember Ron Dennis was talking like you don't understand, always you don't understand, you don't understand, you don't understand. I imagine you and Ron came at the sport from completely opposite directions. You know, Ron is only one, if only a while along with everybody, including Frank Williams. Many time Frank is, I was in Benetton, if you're talking about Comer, if you're talking about sponsor, if you're talking about cost, you remember he was only one, Thomas, we're doing the show, it's supposed to do it 30, 40% less and make the people enjoy more because more the car are together, similar, more we are the fight between drivers, the people want to see the fight between drivers. So we Frank is with everybody, we just, only Ron, Ron, because Ron is a person at the time, I don't know, I don't know, very arrogant, you know, very arrogant, and this amount is superior, you know, like, it's not, it's not. the guy arriving in the right place in the right time, and big dap pe mech rane, congratulations with him, he may have much more money, not anybody at the time, only Ferrari was closed. And you recognize that everybody is arriving form a one without background in the stomach, or the motor racing, fair. It's not like that. What I've run on understand is managing people is the job. And after that your division, your technique is not the chairman of American Express, not be allowed to be chairman of the Lamborghini, may not be different. The product in that Formula One is not a car. What I told you, a Formula One is a prototype, because you have 300, 3,200 design to build up a Formula car. It's a product, and you need to make sure it's quick, but it's not a car. You know, people don't want a car. It's not a car at all. It's something unique. And to building this product, I call it a waste product, you need 3,000, 500. It's one product you're building, because what is your cost in the first car, no? And after that you're doing the replica. But I never see you need to be a expert in the car to building a Formula One. That's it to do. It's not all the mechanics of the driver, no? What kind of a manager of people were you in terms of, do you think people within the team were frightened of you? No. I think the people in the team realized I was completely different skill of the management, and this was when they started having fun working with you. Brostez. Because you do completely different respect to anybody. Not forget, I think so if I'm more sponsored Formula One, we are in one moment, we have a more sponsored in the team, and remember once the pastime was coming to my office, it turned me up on the sticker, you know? Because for this engineer, the sticker in the car every. I told him, "Okay, take out the sticker, you know not the monitor race, you choose. Car with the sticker or car without sticker in a race. You just tell me what you guys prefer to do." And what about the side of that sticker? No, but with Pat as well, we have a very strong team. You know, at the time, my bedroom was in the office because doing a two hour a day back and four was impossible. So I spent a lot of time in the office. So we kept in the morning, I got to the cantina 6 o'clock with the mechanic when the people start and finished at 1, 130. Normally we have dinner in the cantina and for this the cantina was very good because I was eating every day in the cantina. With the guys, getting to know everybody. Flavio clearly knew a thing or two about man management, but one of his other great skills was recognizing what he didn't know about F1 in the early days. He sought the advice of people like then F1's Sarr Bernie Eccleston, although he admits that both Bernie and FIA president Max Mosley weren't best pleased when Benetton became a championship winning machine. Because for Bernie, for Max, to have a Benetton winning was a disaster. Why was that? Because if Benetton winning against Ferrari, against McLaren against everybody was not really if you have a championship, food championship, like Leicester won last year and two years ago I mean, for the football, if you want Manchester United, you want Chelsea, you want this and that was better. Plus Benetton was a T-Shionmaker. We are having formal one. Five years was four, five years and in '94, if you start fighting to win in the championship, you know. I don't think so. And we win so badly, so good, remember. So stopping us to four of our race. But he was stopping us to make the race more interesting. But for us, it was a disaster because for the team, for Michael, for me, was really, really a disaster. Do you think you paved the way for Red Bulls to come in and do what they did? Are there parallels between what you did and what Red Bull are doing now? Because you say you're a T-Shionmaker, some people say, well, Red Bulls are a T-Shionmaker, copy us. Red Bull are having formal one, not to the mind to copy Mercedes or copy Ferrari. The model was Benetton. And I had Christian to have the engine, you know. When we put the eye down the deal with Christian to have a, you know, in Red Bull, because I always write the team. Because that was little bit like us. So we had T-Shionmaker, these people was making a product, a drink. There's no doubt that one driver in particular helped put both Benetton and Flavio firmly on the F1 map. His name? Michael Schumacher. First I asked Flavio about what made the German so special, then he went on to explain how he got his hands on Schumacher in 1991 and how he dealt with accusations of favoritism towards Michael from his teammates. You know, Michael is a special, I mean, a special messie. If you're talking about football, one messie special Ronaldo, if you take him on football. He's a special driver, he's a special person because it was not only a super driver, but a motivating everybody. You know, you have a driver who comes in driving the car. Michael was there talking with the engineers, dinner with the engineers, stay with the engineers, spend time with the engineers. I remember Michael a lot of time in the factory, you know. But when we knew nothing about it, because my agenda was Schumacher's tomorrow, he's zero after tomorrow. A lot of day I was Schumacher's in the factory, he's coming to the office. So what do you do? You don't know anything about the engineers, etc. I mean. So he turned on invited to him? I don't know. The team was the house of Michael. So this was fantastic because you see him around with the mechanic talking. We need to put one piece of overnight. We need to deliver it to wherever Barcelona. the mechanic, all the people in the first will do it. A čud neppo jerop 17.30. do financijev Perola il je pež Mitglい? Esem lahko, da on bawalt je skvantna Autogi h Hem. Anglični je vse naval baru. 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V seču seču je načekeljdo, da je je načekeljdo, da je načekeljdo v seču. Zabimo, je načekeljdo, da je načekeljdo, da je načekeljdo v seču. Zabimo, je načekeljdo v seču. Zabimo, je načekeljdo v seču, da je načekeljdo v seču. race is sixteen. So, I mean, we are good enough to do the job, you know. But it was always suspicious about the event. And master. But after, you know, in then, somebody equalized everything. So, we miss in three or four races. And we won the first championship. Anyway, we do serve to win the first championship. We lost the constructor. But we won the Michael championship. Mind you that Adelaide was, I'm sure it's the way Michael wouldn't have wanted to win it that way. Is that fair? It's not Michael to win the race. It's a demo in lost race. I mean, it's not Michael won the race because Michael had the accent, okay? It is a demo in lost race. It's a guy who doesn't understand to me. And this point is not the photo Michael, the photo demo. Well, I think there are some people out there who would say that Michael turned in on. Yeah, but if the money was not there because you know, Michael had the accent and the maybe Damon didn't know. I mean, maybe Damon didn't know. I sure would be the legend. You just wait after you pass him. But what's your take on Michael? You've talked about his brilliance as a driver, his brilliance as a team player. But I mean, you know, Adelaide, okay, you say it was Damon's fault, but still it, it not a demo fault. It demo lost the race. Okay, Damon lost the race. But but Michael did perhaps turn in on him. I think that's a miracle. Michael, Michael, done everything he need to do in this case. Do you think he went too far? No, but to further punishing. And you see, in Adelaide, maybe we need punishing Michael, but Max, the most to punishing again because first of persecution, I see. He's done so much rubbish before. He couldn't do it again. Exactly. This is the history. It's clear. But then when he goes to Hareth in 1997 and turns in on Vielner, I mean, for all the brilliance of Michael Schumacher, do you accept that there were flaws there and that he was impetuous and that Michael was, Michael was very, very, very competitive. And Michael was very aggressive driver, okay. Sometimes he put the mistake as well because Michael under pressure was like every driver, you know, put the mistake. We know that he was really unnecessary at the time with we, you know. But you know, when you're racing, everybody has a different style. The people were complaining about what's happening. George was stopping, and the body was complaining. He was stopping for me. The more the perfect driver to see the driving the car. So you need as well some driver, me, Formula One. I remember at the time of the Niger Master, saying, you know, Senna and Prost, you remember when I paid in Japan, okay. Niger. But Formula One is a gladiator formula. It's the more power, pineapple of the motor sport, etc., etc. Sometimes it's dangerous sport because still very dangerous sport. But the people love it as well when you have a fighting between drivers accident. And it's part of the game, your guys. If your race is clean, perfect, you know, talking, you know, riding, you know, talking about that. That's, you're looking for the controversial at the time. I remember every time with the controversy, you have a finishing the race, you have 50 people in your neck. If you know a controversy, you've been easy in nobody car. Do you think what he did in Adelaide was just a reflection of the pressure? 100%. This was an impression. It's been a long old year. We have a, we spend that one week in Adelaide. And we never talking about race, we talking about everything else. Michael just had to win because was the best driver. We had the best car, simple. Everybody tried to make us lose in the championship. We succeeded. This was a fantastic for me, for the team, for Michael. Because the team know, if you're cheating or whatever, you see the team after we go back, the people know. They need to question. They people know. And Ross Pat Rory, when we're talking about this traction control, I ask because I don't know myself. I don't know if we have something. And when we have a child in the office, I was clear. And after Mark pick up again, you know, was no stop. Whatever child he said, Mark in top of Charlie, this and that and that. And this was really kind of persecution to us. Michael Schumacher, of course, ended up leaving Benetan and joining Ferrari, where he was joined by the likes of fellow Benetan men, Ross Braun and Rory Bern, to create a super team. So can we talk about the impact of Schumacher leaving on Benetan? Okay, you had that wonderful season in 95. You must have felt, Michael, we've just dominated. What have I got to do to keep you? Why did he go to Ferrari? And were you worried from the outset that he'd take Ross and Rory and this is part of the, I know Michael want to be in Ferrari. I believe every racer, every formal one racer, I want to learn in Ferrari, for millions of years. When he said that, I was not surprised because we won. Michael with us, we won two championship very quickly. Okay, in five years we won two, three years. I think so he was feeling was too easy and we want to be Benetan and we want to have the challenge in Ferrari. Plus was the money. The salary Ferrari offered to him was impossible for me to measure. How much more? I don't remember. Double. Was it double? No, no. In then, you know, we keep it good relationship. When you won the first race in Ferrari was the first to go to the garage to compete with him, but it's part of the day. And we're looking as well to find out the one you're driving. After, you know, we're Benetan, we're renovated from Fernando Ronson. You never, you know, happen. You know, people want to go there, go there. And after sure Ferrari pick up a few people from Benetan because it was normal. Ross and Rory, Rory was the first one. But take five years, it is before we did the championship, you know, a long time. If Michael was saying in Benetan, we win another one to championship. This is what they tell him to one. Michael, you young, now you're in the money. Let's take two more years with two championship and that's you go to Ferrari and you charge more because you are four time championship and not two time. You know, this was life. Now, you mentioned Fernando Alonzo. It took you a while to find another young driver, wasn't it? So Michael leaves you at the end of '95 and Alonzo only sort of comes along. Not first. It was six years ago because I know he called me young, because I believe young is very quick driver and maybe one environment I've been at home was that expression I not in Ferrari. But I put a mistake. Super driver, super guys. But really was no performing. I can't believe to perform. And the car was very good at the time. And the same was a gear. A gear of a ten to the carier. He may have a physical problem still about the accident. He may have a situation anyway. Was one year of transaction after I mean the after I left because I was in Wurz and Pizichela, so at the point of when Michael got to Ferrari, say that one, two years and after I sold my 20% to Benito and that's something else. Flavio managed plenty of drivers, including the likes of Mart Weber, but it was only with Fernando Alonzo that he achieved a level of success that was similar to what he'd managed with Schumacher. I started by asking him which of these two giants was the best. Before we got on to talking about Renault, the team that Bennettan became and Alonzo's decision to leave Renault former Claren in 2007. Can we talk about Alonzo then? I mean very bluntly who was better? Fernando Alonzo or Michael Schumacher? You know, it's better than me, Mr. Ronaldo. I don't know. Maybe Fernando is Spanish, but is less emotional than a Michael. Michael is with the sure relationship with the mechanic, Michael was pushing everybody to the limit. But Fernando's well. Fernando is a kind of, you know, a road rider, you know, he's never give up, you know, he's always barking behind you, etc., etc. And for me, my Spanish was racing Imola. We won the race. a microfinish second, 2005, brilliant race. Remember? You see, these two champions were basically similar. They were 2005. And for 15 or 20 laps, Michael was in the gearbox of Fernando. Fernando put zero mistake. Michael put zero mistake was amazing, amazing race. Always I had this race in my mind. Me was a very similar driver. Very similar. How hard was it for you to make Fernando a test driver in 2002? He joins Renau, you had Gents and Button and Yano Trullian. This was my decision, Michael. And I have all the young guys on the British press against me because you guys believe that Gents was a great driver. Gents was a very good, my only desire. I know Fernando, I feel that Fernando was not a washroom market. So at the time, it was only the possibility to fire, not fire, because we ended the contra. I know Renau the contra, Gents, so. And I put Michael in the car. Fernando. Fernando in the car. Against everybody. Including the team. Because the team, we have the British people in the team. A Gents from Button was really a new star, etc., etc. But I was one moment, Gents was not performing well to mesh soon. You know, the party, etc., etc. I'm going to play devil's advocate. I think surely you can see that in 2002 Gents' performances were very good. No, I'm not sure. But I believe it. Michael, Gents was a super driver. Fernando was what we were looking for to grow again the team. Renau, like we done it. We done the same movie with two different actors. Gents was super. Gents was a nice guy. Really lovely guy. For the first time we had an amazing, good-pressing UK. Because whatever Gents was done, it was terrific. And I changed Gents was no more terrific. And I put Fernando. And I remember the press conference that only the future time we played wrong wrong. I feel sorry for Gents. I'm sure he found another one, the team he found another one, the team he knew immediately. And we put Fernando. How different was the vibe at the time between Beneton and Renau? The same, same people. But did the pressure or having a manufacturer being owned by a manufacturer as opposed to a T-shirt manufacturer? As you described them. Was the vibe different? It was much better than the Manufator especially Manufator never won a championship. Because you know, Renau never won nothing. This was clear. So sure, Manufator was completely different. If I go to Trevisor to see Lucia Roberto via the office, you see the shop, the tricot and the sweater. And go to Renau was a technical area. Fantastic. You know, we have a fantastic people in the engine. We have fantastic people. And my big problem there was connecting the engine people with the chassis people. So we create an event every week. We have an event from London to go to Paris. And the one week the Paris people are coming to. So what I try to do because the competition between the English and between the chassis, you know, the chassis is good engine shit. The engine is good, the chassis shit. I stop on this. This was a big job to stop that. I spend a lot of time in Paris. And I try to explain to everybody if you want to win, it's not the best chassis. I told them, "I know what the best chassis. I know what the best engine. I just want the packaging win in the race." After leaving the best engine to Ferrari and leaving the best chassis to Red Bull, I won the best. I won just a combination between the two two win in the race. So we create a very good relationship between the French and the English. Respect to the first reason we arrived in Manicourt, was the English design, the frog and the one inside. In the motto, it was a disaster. And the management of the Renault, the management for 44, the design top. Super top support. Very shatty on the people was very excited to operate it with us. So it was a fantastic team. And the team was really a complicity between the older player, motorist chassis, you know, chassis engineering and brief. It was an ideal, fantastic game. Can you compare the success you had in 2005/06 with Alonzo and Renault to the success you had with Schumacher in '94/'95? I was different game, you know. The first of you had the manufacturing, everybody respecting us. But you were still the underdogs. You didn't have the same budget as a lot of the other teams out there. You know, have the budget. There was, where you'd tell somebody to give the budget to somebody. What did you guys spend it on the budget immediately? I never give the budget 20 body. I am less sure. But I am less because we don't need the budget of Ferrari to win. So every time we have the budget for doing the normal season. And after every time somebody ever request me budget for doing something different, I want to understand what it is. And after the size, if I give the money or not, because at that age, engineering is very peculiar. We need this for this and that because this is the car, but I thought it was very fantastic. A quick is the car, if you had this. You know, looking at that, just for you to get it. Come back with something better. You know, I was looking always a performance. Have you learned your money? Yeah, less money to everybody, I agree. But do you have enough money to win the championship? Is it a coincidence that you only won two championships on the bounce at Bennett on two championships on the bounce at Renault? Is that. No, there are not without four championships. But I'm going to give it to you. Sure, that's fair point. But two seasons of success. Do you feel the sort of cyclical nature of Formula One meant that you only had two seasons in you? No, but you know, Bennett. What would it have taken you to win in 2007? No, Bennett, if Michael decided to go to Ferrari two-estated, we won another one two championships. And I know. Had Alonso decided to stay with you for 2007, do you think you would have won that championship? I never said. I go to McLaren. Again, this. I was not happy because this was really. This was not. It was a show me to go to Ferrari. This was Fernando to go to McLaren. Fernando, no, for me, the more. McLaren was never in my dream to be in McLaren, and not in the same thing, he went to go to McLaren. Especially, I tell him, you have the new guy. And the new guy was who is Hamilton. But the new guy is in the pocket of the Rodenis, like you and me. And they promise you, you go there, you're the fighting, and the guy is protected by Rodenis. And what was Fernando's reaction when he said. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I think so at the point, nobody, including Rodenis, understood a quick was Hamilton. Because he's Rodenis. Understand, a quick was Hamilton, you know, spend a month or money pay Fernando. Because if I know in my house, I have a driver, create it in my house. So, quick, why I need another one, you know. It did what it would be, probably. How involved did you get in the breakdown of the relationship between Alonso and McLaren? Well, because you were his manager, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My teacher Rodenis had done everything by himself, you know, you know, you're not that bad, man. You've done everything by himself, you know. He's just watching, and he's done everything by himself. It got pretty nasty though, didn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this is the reason why I know nothing. I just watch, because I know. I bet. After two days, when you see the change of tire was done by first by Hamilton, and second by then, also, this is not because they know Fernando. And after that, that would be Bimbo, Bambamba. What about Fernando going to Red Bull? That was mooted. So, so, for end of 2000. Well, we never, we never did sure about it, Bull. Really? Because at the end of 2007, obviously, Fernando has to go somewhere. He comes back to Renault, and. But there was, wasn't there? I remember there was a lot of talk at the time of him going to Red Bull. We never, I think Christian Horner even mentioned it. No, quite recently. No, honestly. I tell you whatever it is. No, no, no. Fernando, our point, again, was Ferrari. That was his next destination. And was nothing. Red Bull, we never. Okay. Red Bull, with Christian Horner, I had been to a danger. And I hope it is a danger. Because I believe as well, if you have a Red Bull with the same engine, you're checking everybody in our team. And everybody was against, again, you know, this was brilliant. do this and after we connect it with Nissan, Nissan Raming board. No, I never see, we never go close to have a call to be told. Looking at Fernando now, how up to speed is he with Formula One? Fernando is very, you know, Fernando in the last year of Formula One was very unhappy guy. Now he's happy. Indio, this race is enjoying. I mean, he's happy. We talked with him, he's always minding happy. Formula One, who cried was very, the last year to years, was really, the car was not competitive, the engine was not competitive, I have no patience to wait. The organization McLaren was really not the best organization in the world as well. So now McLaren is done better, but Land is happy because he's doing, you see, he's driving from the sand to 24 hour and a month, he's a race car. You know, they say anything is move, everything is four tires or two tires, two wheels is doing. You know Formula One, you know how the Japanese operate, mild seven, all those deals that you put together. When Fernando was being outspoken about Honda on the radio, GP2 engine for example, you must have been aware that the ramifications of that were going to haunt him. Sure, but this was wrong. Because whatever you do, you know, we have the problem, we have as well the problem if we microrecourse what, you know, because the cause what really never invest in money to make sure, this is the reason I signed with him, you know, because I know because I was going nowhere, you know. But again, the Japanese are driving, I have a very good example of me, the Japanese in Honda. And for me the Japanese take time, my sure arrive, you know, he's doing the marathon, you know, take time, drive to the end. My, I noticed I was only the engine, that I noticed I was all the team was, I was a disaster. The team was really a disaster after the team. We told the travel, remember, to do Indianapolis, want to do that. I mean, was that a distraction and the body was concentrated at the point. Flavio remains close to Fernando. So it was very interesting to hear what he had to say, especially on talks of a comeback in 2021. Do you think he still got it? If he did come back next year, do you think he still got what it takes? It's a road rider, 100%. Yeah. What opportunities do you think they will be? We see. Yeah. We see. I don't know, honestly, I don't know. I know he's a lot of contraspire and the people moving up and down, we see. Where would you like to see him? I do not see if Fernando wanted to do the, at least 50% of the possibility where you start the race to win in the race. So we're looking, do you think we're just looking at the top three teams? He's not so many, you know? Yeah, yeah. You remember the said that you have to allow yourself. For all of his success in F1, and that's four drivers titles and three constructors titles, Flavio attracted his fair share of controversy. He fronted the breakaway team's championship in 2009, but that came after the decade defining Singapore Grand Prix. Where one of Flavio's drivers, Nelson P.K. Jr. crashed his car deliberately in an effort to help Alonso win the race. Flavio was banned from F1 after that, although his ban was overturned later on. Here's how Flavio reflects on that race now. For me, the most important, I was, for the first time, I was luckily enough by the World Council of the Formula Ma. Because this is Mickey Mouse World Council. This is Max Decide, everybody tell us. He's not next race, he's not at the pass anymore. The wife stays chill, and he's coming to London, etc. I was completely screwed by the grand jury in Paris. For me, it's enough. I was screwed up with the deal with Max. When he decided to ban them, after one hour call, he called him, he didn't know he was sitting together, and now he's been hit by the way. Max, we met in the way, I was taking court. It was all the public relations of FIA because FIA was sure to win in court. In France, FIA, lost everything. Whenever our lost everything, any pay me, 15,000 was symbolic, because I asked one million, give me 15,000. But my Flavio Breator, in the end, was screened up completely by the grand jury. And not by the World Council, because the World Council, we know it was Max Papi, and Max Ternot, no, yes, yes. And the World Council was a lot of people against the decision to ban me from Formula One. Max was too strong. Are we ever going to see you in Formula One again? No, for what? I'm happy, I'm happy because I've done a lot in Formula One, and make a lot of money in Formula One. This was, I'm happy. I've been at the Sond-minade, I've been at the J-Sond-minade, I've been to the J-Sond-minade. Did you buy a minority? Did you buy a minority because you were hoping BAT? British American tobacco would buy it from you. No, no, no, no. I've been at it because my minority was a friend of mine, I was in bankruptcy. This was a minority. That was what '96, wasn't it? And then the Lijiay opportunity? Lijiay, but Lijiay because I need the engine Renault in the car, if not we, that's the quality of the car, to team only with the engine Renault. That was in '94, wasn't it? So that's how you ended up with the Renault engine at Benatone in '99. I bought Lijiay, I think it was a very good job. Again, every race after the race, my car was taken pieces by Charlie and everybody, this was Max again, because it was Benatone and people from Lijiay, I decided to have Benatone to have Lijiay, everybody done it, like Frank Williams done before, but Frank was fine. Frank was done the front-wing, everything. And every race we have, our car, Lijiay, was taken pieces. To check, we should have the same, the same, the same, the Benatone, every race. But the last one, our team was the last one to leave in the race because of the inspection by fear every race. And we won one race with Lijiay, a miracle, with a French rival, a Monte Carlo. All of you, Panas, 1996. I sold it to Prost. And we sold to Prost and he said it was four or 15th in the championship and after the mechanism. So I mean the different to managing the same product. A Prost was French, with the support of the government everybody, I was no French, I don't have the support to anybody, and then by myself. I felt we couldn't end the conversation there. So I brought him up to the here and now, to Formula 1 2020. I was fascinated to get his views on the current grid, starting with Lewis Hamilton, and how he felt about the prospect of the British driver, equalling Schumacher's record of seven world titles. Michael was fighting with the big guy. We said no, we said no. You know, Michael, you need to recognize him, Michael arrived, the client was tough. You told him a nice young man, you're talking about Sen. Now, the competition you have to drive, to the driver. The competition he doesn't expect before. My Hamilton, again, if the body put the pressure to him, he's woke away. So if a Verstappen or a Leclerc can get close enough to him, lay for everybody. When Schumacher has some body cross, he put the mistake. Fernando, everybody put the mistake. If he drives a taxi driver with the outside of the car, he's winning everything because it's super driver, he's fantastic. He's only Hamilton, he's too strong for Formula 1. He's Hamilton and Verstappen. What do you feel about Leclerc? Leclerc is young, he's big boss because he's demonstrating. If I was in Ferrari, I'd put the crack already two years ago to replace the raccoon. Because you're not with the raccoon, you won't know where. You'll never be nothing with him. At the time, I'd take the list of put the crack. The crack is really strong guys. So you could say we've got three stars then. According to you, we've got Leclerc, we've got Verstappen, we've got Hamilton. Leclerc is not recognizable now. Verstappen, for me, is the more incredible driver. He's fantastic in the way overtaking, in the way he's staring, in the way he's agradieto. She thinks he's better than his dad. I tell the dad, he's not with me. The name is the same, but the drivers are completely different. I wish I had this one in the car. I tell the father, I tell him, "Jesus Christ, I wish I had your son in the car and not you." And you're said, "Did he agree or not?" That's right, 100%. Well, Flavia, it's been a wonderful chat. Thank you very much for your time. Good to see you again. All right, so. Imagine Max Verstappen as Michael Schumacher's teammate, Abenaton in 1994. Now there's a thought. Some fabulous insights from Flavia over there. I'm not sure he's going to be on roll. Dennis' Christmas card list this year, but then again, you don't get the impression that he ever was, do you? This conversation reminded me how much I miss Flavio in Formula One. He was controversial, yes, but he was different and I liked that about him. He was a heavyweight team boss who had a presence and he caught people's attention for both good and bad. Flavio, thanks for your time, it was great to catch up. Well that's it for this week, I hope you enjoyed the show and please remember to rate and review us and if you haven't yet subscribed to Beyond the Grid, we're on Apple, Spotify and all of your favourite podcast apps and we'll be back next week with another great conversation with a guest from the world of Formula One. And we promise we'll do our best to keep these conversations flowing even in this difficult time. 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