FLASHBACK — Neurodivergent Realities, Rupture & Repair, and Podcast Updates

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You can also mention the code DCPod@signup for a two-month-free grace period on your new Jane account. Hey everyone, you are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world on Patrick Kassel. And I'm Dr. Neff. And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. Thanks for listening. Hey everyone, it's Patrick from Divergent Conversations. Megan Anna and I are embarking upon our seasonal break. It has been a long year for both of us as it has for all of you. We've decided to take our end of the year break a little bit early and re-release some of our favorite episodes from 2025. We really appreciate all of your support. We appreciate all of you who listen, download, share, and continuously send us feedback. We really appreciate our sponsors, Landmark College, and Chain App for Healthcare. You two have been in our corners, basically the entire year. We will see you on the other side. We hope everyone has a healthy, safe, happy new year. All right, everyone. Welcome back after a long extended hiatus and break on Divergent Conversations. We are finally batch recording a new season and doing things very differently going forward. So where was I going with that? I don't know, but thanks for still continuing to follow, engage, support. We got a lot of messages while we were away about all of our re-releases for some of you who have listened to those episodes multiple times and still find a lot of good insight and information and support. So that makes me feel really good about continuing to put this contact out into the world. And Megan and Anna and I are in weird head spaces right now specifically me. So I'm just going to name that. I've saved all of my energy for this next hour and a half. Which feels like a bit of pressure to me. I'm like, uh-oh, like all of your, you're like, you're juicing all of the ounces of energy out of you for this conversation. And that feels like a kind of a little bit of a sacred gift not just to me, but also to our listeners in the sense of, I do know you're in a season of really low energy. And so it's like, okay, here's the one thing I'm going to do today. I appreciate that. And no pressure needed like, weirdly, I feel the pressure where I'm like low energy. Am I going to bring anything to the table? That's where my mind immediately goes. Like, I don't want Megan and Anna to have to deal with a heavy lifting. So to speak. I kind of so like love that about our friendship and our dynamic here is like, that's the reality of being our divergent, right? Is like, you saw me through the fall when I like, I'd very limited energy for work. And you've seen me in intense brain fog when I can like barely put words into cohesive sentences. Like, and I mean, I think it's tough when we're probably both in a downspot. But that's part of being in relationship. That's part of interdependence is like, yeah, you you're low right now. I have a bit more energy. And often, it's the reverse of that. Totally. Yeah, that's such a great reframe for me, which I love about you. That's a that's a really good perspective, honestly. And I think that's so important. Wonderful segue, by the way, into really what we want this next season and series to be about. See, even in your fatigue, you still got the social ligaments. Look to see you go. Thank you. Yes, I do have the social ligaments. I think that's what we want this to be about, right? Like we bounced ideas off of why we wanted to take a break. And we'll talk about that in a second. But we want to be more intentional. We want to take more breaks. You mentioned having more feminine energy in the podcast in terms of how we structure, how we schedule. We wanted to do collections, Megan's word. And I think we wanted to start off with wellness. And we acknowledge that there is so much going on right now in the world, in this country, in the autism spaces, especially. And we want to talk in a nuanced way as we always try to do, and as we're both existing and trying to figure out things for ourselves. That's really well said. Yeah, it's interesting. We have a lot of themes that we talked about and that we'd like to do. Because I think our thinking right now is we'll do like 12 episodes a season and release a few seasons a year. And we definitely want to get into some of the complexity and heaviness that's happening. But we wanted to set the tone with wellness because that's partly why we took the break was I think I reached out to you. And I was like, I am not. It was in middle of all of. So folks who like know neurodivergent insights might know this, folks that don't know is like I did a website migration. My website's very huge. It went terribly horribly wrong. And I like for the first time was like, am I going to have to like close my business? Because I've got four employees at this point. Like we depend a lot on website visits and sales. And that was a very stressful time. And everything was happening. Well, not everything was happening politically like because it keeps happening. But it was it was in a moment where there's a lot happening politically. And I just I was shutting down. I'm like, I can't handle being perceived right now. And I needed a break. And I like reached out. And I knew that was a hard ask. And and then thought through like, what would it look like to embody the things that we want to help other people see around how do we how do we do wellness amidst especially amidst all that that people are navigating right now? Yeah. Yeah. Well said. And I know that was a really, really stressful time for you for so many reasons. With the website migration with all the issue that came with it because I saw a lot of the behind the scenes of it. I mean, and then having the that financial burden plus just the work so hard to create it to see that come like crumbling down at something that wasn't your fault is really frustrating. And you feel kind of powerless in that, you know, as well. And I think it's a fragility. Yeah. Like I counter fragility in a way that like I that I and I hate that feeling. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I can't imagine feeling like am I going to have to close up shop because of something that, you know, should have been pretty routine. And I felt, you know, we can speak candidly. I suppose on here about this experience, but I felt really guilty because I gave you the referral for that. And it felt horrible. You know, you're a you're a friend. And I saw all of this happening behind the scenes. And it really was a painful experience. And it sounds like there were some lessons in it too. Yeah. And I like that's one thing. And I don't mean this in a toxic positive way. I like so. And yeah, you know, in psychology especially around like hard things. Sometimes you talk about meaning making. And I like that to me has always been the thing that helps me is like going to meaning making. And maybe it's sometimes when I've f'd up, like when I've stepped at it and I've done something that I'm feel really guilty or shameful about. It's like, okay, what do I, what's the invitation for me to learn and grow and do better? Because then then there's meaning making in it. That's like the one thing that will calm down my OCD to be honest, because I am so guilt prone and rumination prone. Sure. And same thing with this with this stuff is like, okay, there's gotta be some invitation in here toward growth if I see it. And again, not to bypass like all of the other negative emotions that came with it. But the thing for me, and I think it does connect to this wellness. And even to how we started was interdependence of I've over the last four years, two years, built up a really strong digital walls around me because my nervous system could not handle being perceived, being exposed, the feedback. Even, like I'm always open to Collins, but like just the level of feedback and being perceived was so much for me, but what I realized in that process was, I'd also blocked out like people's kindness and appreciation and I needed community support and I invited it and I like, I like cried from joy and like of this, of like, oh my gosh, people have me and as someone who is very hyper independent, it was such a beautiful breakthrough moment for me of like, okay, there is another way to do this, to do this whole human thing, to do this whole community thing and I think back to you and me, but also back to our community when I think about all we're navigating, like the way forward is gonna be through interdependence, it's gonna be through community, it's gonna be through building like grassroots movement and connections where it's like we've got each other, we've got each other in this. - Absolutely, that's really well said. And it's, you know, I think when we think of wellness, it's interested to see where people's minds go when they first hear that word, but it's holistic, right? Like we have to really take a zoom out approach and look at a lot of the different things that impact us on a cellular level, on a micro level, on a macro level, on a community based level, there's so much that goes into wellness and I think I wanna just applaud you on air as you just said, I don't like being perceived. We're asking for a break because I think that took a lot for you and to say, hey, I wanna shift the way we're gonna do this if we're gonna continue going forward. - Yeah, and yeah. - Do we want to, like, especially, I feel like we're kind of, we're coming out wellness and we're kind of getting into community and connection, which we didn't know how we were gonna start, but I love that actually we're starting on like interdependent community. Do you feel comfortable talking about arcs, change and like the attachment reaction you had and then like how we navigated that? 'Cause I actually think, first of all, I'm really proud of us for how we navigated it and I also think that might be helpful for listeners to hear how, like, rupture and repair can happen. - Yeah, I mean, you did send an email about it after asking me about it. - I did, I, um, did not say your name, but people might have intuitive. - Sure, this person that I spend a lot of time with creating these things with. - The one, the one friend that happened to my wife. - Yeah, of course, I'm happy to talk about it. I don't think we need to go into, like, black and white specifics about like everything, but yes, I think let's talk about what, what that was like for both of us who. - Like, yeah, or go ahead. - Just let the stage go ahead. - Yeah, like, so you get my, like, long ass voice memo and first of all, like, your headspace, like just all of our headspace are just messed up at this point and what happens to you when you get that voice memo? - Okay, I get long ass voice memo. I think it was, like, seven minutes long. - Or do you've told me before, like, do not send me longer than two minute voice memo? Was I cannot do that? - I can't typically, like, listen and process it, you know, to a lot of audio messaging. So after two minutes, that's usually my cutoff, but I listen to the whole thing. I was like, damn, did I just really listen to seven minute voice memo? So I listen to the memo. I'm out with some friends. Maybe we are partaking in some alcoholic beverages. Maybe not, I don't, but nevertheless, not an excuse for my reaction whatsoever, but that was definitely the headspace that was it. And I think I got the voice memo that was like, hey, I think I don't remember how you phrased it. I would need to remember that correctly, but it was something like about taking a break, right, from diverging conversations. And I think you even mentioned, like, when I see it pop up on my calendar, it's really stressful. It's really overwhelming. It causes me a lot of angst in a lot of ways. And I was just like, whoa, in my immediate reaction, it was like attachment wound, abandonment, insecurity, right? What I was experiencing was like Megan Anna. And I'm gonna prioritize saying Megan Anna for the rest of this season. I just want everyone to hear that. Megan Anna is apparently gonna prioritize and bless cursing because I already heard you say F up. And I'm gonna prioritize saying your name the way you want it, you want it stated. I experience like Megan Anna doesn't want to do this with me and doesn't like me. That is what happens so viscerally for me. I was like, they are telling me that this project, that we kind of, I wouldn't say, put blood sweat and tears into, but. - We put a lot into it. - A lot into it. - Yeah. - Is something that they are no longer interested in being a part of. And that just hurts so bad in that moment. And it was more about, I think I was grieving the loss of friendship and not really so much of project because ultimately project is great and I'm glad of what we've, I'm proud of what we've created honestly in the last two years. But if it came to an end today, I would be, there would be some grief, but it would be more about the grief of the connection and the relationship. That would be the heaviest heading grief for me. - Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And once you said that, 'cause like, and then it kind of, which happened with the attachment. - Yeah, it like became about like a technical thing and then I was like, whoa, I don't feel recognized here. And like then we were texting, which is, and it was, this is like the only time we had a text exchange where like I started to feel some heat in my body. - And I feel so much better so. - I felt from the responses. - Yeah. - Yeah. And but then I think we caught it pretty quickly and we got on the phone. 'Cause and then it was like, we were able to get to like, okay, what is happening here? Because it's obviously not about this conversation. It's happening at the surface. And I think this is what's so important about like attachment wounds is. So if we were to map this out, I expressed a need. - Yeah. - And I didn't, I didn't think on attachment impact it would have for you. Like in part of, this is my weird stuff is I just, I have this pervasive narrative that like, I'm not that important. So like it would not even occur to me that like, I could activate an attachment wound in you. Which is like a weird, I realize that's a really weird thing to say, especially 'cause we've talked about attachment. I know these things. - Sure. - So that's not even in my mind. - Right. - You experienced attachment wound, your defenses come online, 'cause that's what happens to all of us when our attachment system. And I think us being us and us having the connection, we were able to catch it and be like, what's going on? But so often this is what spirals, someone expresses a need, attachment, injury, defenses come up. And then that activates the other person's defenses. And then you're often a rupture that no one understands and it's so painful, it's so painful. - It was painful for me. And I think if I can speak for you, you probably would say it was painful for you in the 30 minutes that it took place. So if that had been prolonged, or we never repaired-- - Never repaired? Can you imagine if our friendship ended in that way? - No, that would have been 99% my fault in that moment. And I would have felt so guilty and ashamed of that for reacting in a way that is just not typically me. And I'm experiencing a lot of grief right now, as is. So like I'm getting emotional thinking about this. But yeah, I would have had a really hard time living with myself for the next couple of months, you know? - So you would have, that's interesting. You, 'cause I feel like for some of us our defenses would come up and the narrative would become one of anger, like Megan Anna is so unfair. But you would have, it would have been like, I fucked up. - Mm-hmm. Oh, you cursed. I-- - Yeah. - This is what you're happy. - Great. I would have went straight, shame spiral, because I have enough insight and awareness to understand that. That was my emotion that I was projecting onto you. And it wasn't fair for me to do that in that moment. There was obviously other context that we could have talked through in a different way, but that reaction was mine. And not yours to receive, especially as you are going through the shit that you are going through. So yeah, I would have went straight, shame spiral, like I would have, like, and my attachment ruptures typically end in, like, significant shame spiral, but also significant, like pulling away. And not just pulling away from our ability to repair, but just pulling away from life, like existing. And, or so in, like, deep dark, depression and self-hated. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I relate to that deeply of-- And there's also this-- I'm lately been wondering if it's, like, kind of connected to OCD, but also, like, feels like an autistic thing. So, there's some question on a measure. I think of, like, basically, the idea of, if something is a little bit tainted, it's ruined. So, like, if there's a scuff on a boot, it's like, oh, those boots are ruined, or there's a stain on a shirt, that's ruined. And I've got some of that, that thinking. And it's easy for that to creep into friendships, but it's especially bad when it's like, I've been the one to do something wrong. And it's like, well, I ruined that friendship. So, I just need to throw it away and start over from scratch, where I can be the perfect relational being. [BLANK_AUDIO] not hurt that person at all, which, of course, never happens. But there is that mindset of like, well, that's ruined now. So that goes away. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. So anyway, fast forward to now. That was like two months ago, right? Maybe two months, four months early in March. I don't know. You're feeling like I felt so much closer to you afterwards. Same because we could work through it and we understood it. And we're like, wow, our brains are fascinating. And it's, you know, it's another good prime example, right? Where I hate talking on the phone. As I just said, like, I hate voice memos. Generally hate audio processing because it's so hard for me. Talking on the phone really helped us, like, immediately repair that opposed to we continue texting back and forth. I think things would have like, things would not have ended well. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. It would not. And that's such a good reminder of like, okay, when people are getting into a hot exchange, first of all, what is it actually about? Is it about the thing? Or is there a story and an injury happening underneath the thing? Yeah. And then like, how do you get back to connection? Right. Yeah, for sure. Because I think for a lot of you listening, you might think like, oh man, I've had this experience so many times that I could see myself in it. Or I've talked about it with the person and it never repaired. And I think there is a risk of that sometimes happening, right? I've like, free and post rupture. You even might have that like repair conversation, but really maybe people aren't in the same space and able to give the same energy and desire to the repair. Yeah. And that's painful. And that's something to grieve when it's like, there's been a rupture. And you can't do all the work. A person can only meet you halfway. And such a big piece of it is this meta awareness piece we're talking about of, can we get to the conversation underneath the conversation? And when there's not the capacity for that, it does make repair a lot harder because we get pulled back into the content. And, and then that makes it so much more difficult to do that repair work. And we can't, if someone can't meet us there, they can't meet us there. And that's painful. Great. And you met me halfway in that situation because I kept saying via text like knowing that you were getting hotter and hotter like via text. Can we please just talk about this on the phone? Like I feel like some of this is getting really misconstrued. But at first, you were like, no, I'll just talk to you when I get, when you get back from Ireland in like a month and I was like, yeah, that's my attachment about this. Like that was my attachment stuff, right? So I've talked about being avoidant. So I felt hurt in that moment. Then it was like, you're like, I'll sort this like go to Ireland. We'll sort this. Like, yeah, that was my avoidant. That was my avoidant coming out. And then eventually you were like, no, let's, let's do that. And I just felt so like you said, honestly, so much closer to you. And Ariel had asked me when I came back in the room. She was like, are you okay? And I didn't really give her the context in that moment. But I know that like I would not have been able to sleep that night if we didn't actually speak regardless of what the outcome was going to be. I knew like, if it was if we left that conversation in that text form, I was going to ruminate that and obsess on that all freaking night. Yeah. And I would have like, I would have had stress dreams. And I would have, so I would have been this, okay, I'm not proud about this. But like I would have been I think ruminating in like a bit of anger of like and kind of done some of the victim mindset stuff. And then I would have been like, I would have aimed that up. And I would have been getting angry and angry or at you. Right. And then I would have probably built a really unfair narrative in my head around that, which would have then made that repair work so much more to dig out of. Then like catching it right away and hopping on and getting to the conversation underneath. Yep. Agreed. So. So wellness tip number one. Get to the, like catch catch it when your attachment system is activated. Yep. Get to the conversation underneath. Yep. And if it's safe to do so and there's capacity there, like connect with the person, but not on the like content conversation, whatever it is. I feel like it might be helpful. I'm not going to go into details. I just feel like it might be helpful to people like, what do you mean by content? Yeah. If you came about for us, it became about finances in the podcast and like who contributed what? And so that was the content conversation that like, so if we'd stayed at that content, we weren't actually talking about what was happening. That's that was just, that was the vehicle that our attachment stuff was using. And for a lot of you, like you've heard me talk about, I mean, I think we both talk about our money stuff on here at times, but money is so triggering for me. It brings me back to like gambling addiction days. It brings me back to like self worth shit. Like it's so shame based in so many ways. So like, yeah, if we would have stayed in that content, we never really would have gotten to the real like me of the issue or the or what was actually happening for both of us behind the scenes. Yeah. And that's what happens often with these dynamics is you get pulled into some content. And yes, it's kind of about the content, but it's typically like, typically that's just like the signal to whatever's happening underneath for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, wellness tip one gets the story beneath. No one is happening. And then like if capacity like connect because, and so this is also, and this was part of the reflection because yeah, that newsletter where I wrote about this was because of the climate we're all living in. People's nervous systems are activated where a lot of us like our threat signals are all over the place for good reason, but it means that there's going to be more misunderstandings because our nervous system is looking for threat signals. So something like, I want to take a pause for the podcast or a partner being like, no, I don't want to go on that walk with you right now. Like, which maybe at normal base level might be okay. Like if our nervous systems are looking for threats, we're going to start seeing attachment threats from like neutral, neutral stimuli. Absolutely. Yeah. You've kind of talked about this a bit in your, some recent content that you've put out to like getting past the content phase and not focusing in on that content phase in regards to how you even react or people react on social media and search situations, right? So. Yeah. I think so. Wait, say more about what you mean? Yeah, I think you were maybe I'm misremembering it and it could totally be. I thought you had made some content recently about like getting past initial like meaning because there can be so much like disagreement and arguing and autism and advocacy spaces. Yeah. Like sometimes we have to like give each other grace and like permission to be accountable and responsive and apologetic to. Yeah. Like kind of zooming out. Yeah, always, this is kind of like my thing about jerk. It's like always zooming out from the content to be like, what is happening here? And what's going to anchor us in understanding? So yeah, the essay I wrote this last weekend was on. It was a, it was definitely a very Megan Anna like ideation happy place of connecting many different theories, but the idea of putting out a neurodivergent identity development model of like when we're integrating this new identity, especially if we're white, especially if we are later in life identified, there's kind of a typical developmental arc that happens. Right. And when we're in the early phases, like an immersion phase of like I feel so connected to autistic pride and I feel so seen in this, it can be easy when we're in that space to comment in ways that where we might be missing things where we might hurt other people. Like, for example, you know, saying things like when RFK is saying terrible things, he's not talking about me as an autistic person, he's talking about others, like that kind of, which you've also, you also talked about in social media, how that's actually really painful to divide ourselves in that way. Yeah, yeah, maybe we'll do an episode on this. Yeah, probably should. I mean, it connects to today's, if today's theme is wellness through interconnection, like it connects of how to, like we as a community right now, there's so many painful things happening. And part of what I'm saying, I'm not on there a lot, but part of what I'm seeing is a lot of fracturing. And that's what happens, but it's how do we as a community come together, pull together and also like show the world a different way of being. For sure. 100%. Yeah, it was that identity arc newsletter you put out and made some posts about and I thought that was really good. And just the, I'm the acknowledgement that as you go through your, maybe potential discovery phases are going to be different like layers to that as well and different developments and things you might want to walk back or things you wouldn't say. I think I've said it on here too, like I totally like at first bought into like the to kryptonite super power narrative and trope. - And faster. or to now, I would never say those things. - Yeah. - But four years ago, five years ago, I was like, I didn't really know any differently at the time and I thought I was doing the right thing. - And that's developmentally appropriate, which is why I love models. 'Cause it's not like shame on you, Patrick. It's like, of course you did. That's the developmental arc way is you go from, like not knowing anything about this. Like, oh my gosh, my whole life makes sense and kind of an idealized. And that's something, so I had a conversation with Cali last week, the Black Spectrum Scholar and one thing that they said was have self-compassion for wherever you are in the developmental arc and in that context, she was speaking on racism, but it would also apply to like ableism. - Yeah. - And love that of, we actually can't make progress in being anti-racist or anti-abolist from a place of shame. We have to do it from a place of self-compassion. And if we see it as this is a developmental arc, then I can more easily have compassion for wherever I am on that arc. - 100%, and that ties directly into wellness. And I think that arc, right? That ability to have self-compassion whether it's anti-racism, anti-abolism, whatever arc that is, if you're in that shame space, you're much less likely to be involved in community because you're probably less, less likely to put opinion or statement or fact or thought out there because you're so concerned about how it is going to be received opposed to being able to be accountable, apologetic and learned from mistake, which I think is super important as we're going through some of this trajectory too, is like being accountable, being apologetic and truly learning from mistake, because I think so often we are gonna say something that we're like, oh, that wasn't exactly landing the way that I intended for it to land. - And that's where it gets into the accountability piece and the learning of shame shuts us down. - Right. - And then we're not very helpful to the people we've hurt when that happens. - Yep, so wellness. I think this is a good gateway into whatever this series is gonna look like and should we talk about that for a minute? - Yes, we should do that. - Look at, see, social arguments, you still got it. - One thing that I didn't have deeply and craint in who I am, yeah. - Yeah, I don't know how you, like I like marvel at people who can do that 'cause it's not my strength. - I'm doing more on like peripheral, keeping an eye on the time. - Yeah. - Keeping it up, keeping my one active brain cell on conversation. - So. - You do it, you feel engaged to me. Like I feel immersed in it. - And I can tell when I feel immersed in conversation and I feel like we're both in it. - We say this so often when we haven't seen each other in person for a while. And then we like drop into conversation and it makes me just feel really connected to you. - Same, same. - Like texting. - I've been in New Zealand, I've been in Ireland, we've been texting, but like. - Yeah. - Yeah. - So that's actually also like maybe part of wellness and community is like thinking through how we connect 'cause I think it's actually really easy. I avoid synchronous meetings like the plague. It's like. But then when they happen, like even with my team, it's actually I need to work on this 'cause I do a lot of async meetings where I just send a video. And then when I actually meet with them, I'm like we will generate ideas from that that wouldn't have been generated otherwise. Or like you and me, we do stay pretty connected. We text I think pretty much every day. But this felt experience right now is so qualitatively different. And like I feel a different energy, a different groundedness in my body. And so, but I'm always gonna have so much demand avoidance if I have a meeting on my schedule. So being able to remind myself, yeah, I'm gonna have demand avoidance when it's this kind of social interaction. And I also actually know that that kind of social interaction is really important for my wellness. - Yeah, it is one of those both ends for me as well. I avoid meetings as much as humanly possible. And when I see them on my calendar, I think of every way I can get out of them. I actually can't, I'll guess this morning. It's like I don't want it. I can't do this right now. Because it was with people I didn't really know and it would have been a different back and forth. I would have had to drive the ship a lot more. I just wasn't in that headspace this morning. But like I do have to remind myself too, even with my team meetings with my staff at resilient mind counseling, like I dread meetings. But then when we're all in one space, I'm like, it's kind of nice to see everyone's face and like actually be able to speak to you in this capacity. So, yeah, self-to. - We don't always want to do the things that are good for us. I think that's a good thing for us to like have a mind. - Yeah. - Right. - That's, yeah. I mean, take it from two licensed mental health professionals when we can tell you that it's really sometimes hard to practice what we preach. - So I actually, I have a like colleague, it's interesting. We actually went to the same doctoral program in psychology and he, like he was diagnosed in childhood. So, and it was kind of a big deal for an autistic person to be going through a doctoral program in psychology. So we briefly knew each other then, but we've reconnected since. And he is a framework. I love, I shared this. He, I posted it to neurodivergent insights. And he is, I think this feels like a very autistic thing. The ability to just like conceptualize ideas in ways that are like, oh yeah, now that makes sense. But he talks about self-care as like two types. They're self-soothing. So like when we're like inactive distress or sensory overwhelm, it's the things like it feels good. So maybe that might be binge watching Netflix. It might be like sensory soothing. It might be, I mean, for me it'd be a hot shower and no showers are like hated for some autistic people. So self-soothing, it's easy to do. It feels good to do it. And then there's self-nourishment, which we have a little bit more friction around doing, but it's the things that's good for us. So it might be like making that green smoothie trying to get more nutrient-dense food into us, doing the movement, prioritizing sleep. And I just find that framework for self-care so helpful. And then the idea is like, if we have too much of one and out of the other, then we might fill off balance. So the question of like, okay, which like, maybe I need more self-soothing in my life or actually maybe I've gone so much to self-soothing and I actually need some self-nourishment. Like I'm actually gonna meet with Patrick and see my friend, even though I've got to manta boy to write that kind of thing. - That's a great framework. I like that a lot. Yeah, that self-soothing piece comes much more naturally for me, for sure. I think I default into it. - Same. - Sometimes to the point where it's like, this is maybe becoming problematic for this week or this month, but I just allow it to be that way. - I mean, this is a month, I think a lot of us need a lot of self-soothing. And you especially. - Yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure. So, with that self-nourishment piece, really trying to keep that in perspective, when we look at our calendars, or when we think about what we say yes and no to, and it goes back to like something you say a lot, and I can't remember how you frame it. It's like that cost-benefit analysis piece you've talked about like with, okay, if I go do this activity with the family, it's a high values event. It's gonna cost me a significant amount, right? It's kind of in that regard, looking at it from that lens for self-nourishment for me sometimes. When I'm like, okay, I should go take the dog for a walk around the neighborhood and get out of my house 'cause I haven't left the house in five days. And like, I resist it, I resist it, I resist it. And then I do it for like 20 minutes, and I'm like, did you feel a little bit better? Fuck it. You're right, yeah. And so that feedback loop, which I would also tap and put in the meta-awareness bucket is so important because especially if it is a higher friction activity, there's not gonna be as much momentum or motivation to do it. So then when it's like, okay, that did feel better. So something for me like I recently got a walking treadmill, and my default would be to use while I work. My default would be like, I had some more comfortable on the couch, but I know my energy is better if I use the walking treadmill. I know I feel better. And so, and then when I am having that resistance, I'll remind myself, okay, yesterday you were in the spot and you did it and you felt better. - Right, that's a good way to like, reframe back to that and anchor back into that too, to like say like, okay, like here's some actual evidence. You did feel better literally yesterday when you did this thing. - Yeah. - Yeah, I like that as well. So, okay, now I'm feeling the antsy time or we are gonna wrap this conversation up. So I have two thoughts. One, I wanna like hear what you're hoping for that we'll explore in this series. That's one. And then two, I thought maybe I'd mention sub-stack 'cause we've been talking about community so much in our thoughts around that. Which one do you wanna-- - Wait, do you turn the episode out? Is that what's happening? - No, no, first, first, I'm saying we have two things, two bullet list things to talk about until my brain is not itchy. And then we can close the episode. - I'm sure that 'cause it's always a fun experience for me. - It is a fun experience. Hi, if you like us, go. like us. Okay, so yes, number one, what am I hoping to get out of this? It's not even just about the wellness. Yeah, I think I just want to have I'm excited to kind of do this podcast in a way that is kind of the epitome of like what wellness is in a lot of ways, which is boundary setting. I I'm asking for what you need doing things in a way that maximizes your energy. So things like if we're going to batch seasons in like a week and a half, two weeks and then have extended time off, I am personally excited for that to say like, oh yes, I love batching for that reason. Also, I want to really honor what you want and need. And for me, wellness is sometimes that like doing for others and friendship and acknowledging like what someone you care about wants and needs in in relationship. That for me is really important. And then I like just tangible tips, strategies, action tips that I'll never implement in my own life, but it's fun to talk about. It's fun to give other people advice. Yeah, I'll leave these these meetings. Yeah, you know what, that was a really good point. And then in the couch watching Lord of the Rings are basketball. I feel like such a contradiction being in the like, I guess I am pretty much in the wellness space of like, yeah, like a lot of the stuff I totally struggled to implement. I struggled to implement it consistently, I would say. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, which is very ADHD. And then we have to again, having self-compassion like for that. Yeah, that is going to be hard. 100%. I mean, I love what you said about like just embodying the wellness and almost treating it as like a living lab. I love that kind of stuff where it's like, let's try this and talk about it and reflect on it. I didn't like community wasn't the first thing that came into my mind when we were like, let's talk about neurodivergent wellness, but I love that it did because it has been on my mind a lot this year. Yeah. And so I'm just kind of excited. This conversations felt really alive and I'm just excited to see what comes of it. I don't yet have a bullet list of like, okay, we'll do an episode on this, this and this, but I'm sure it'll come. So yeah, I'm just excited that we're having this conversation right now because it really matters. And one of the things we talked about was we're not going to do guests for the season, which you and I both have noticed that feels like a we appreciate it. We learn so much from our guests and it is a heavier cognitive energetic lift for both of us. Yeah. So I'm excited just to like, nerd out and talk with you a lot over the next two weeks. Keep texting me like, you're going to get sick of me. You're going to get sick of me. I'm like, okay. Did I? Yeah. You've said that. Oh, well, my it's because I'm like really in a like boppy energy right now and you're not. And if I was low and someone I was in relationship had a lot of energy, that to me would be sensory overwhelming. I appreciate your, your trying to look out for me from that perspective. I don't know. Am I ever in a boppy energy? Just curiosity was maybe in more than now, but not probably like up up. I don't, yeah, I don't know that I've seen you up up. Me neither. It would be nice. Maybe, maybe it'll rub off. Maybe my boppy energy will rub off on you. So over the last couple of years, we've been like, we should do this, we should do this, we should do this for divergent conversations. And one of them is like, do we start a Patreon, do we, and do we start a whole like a big community. And then my brain always wants to make it bigger. And then we don't do anything. We're really fun to work together. But I like, I've part of another thing that came up with like the website migration was I was just like, I just want to get on substack because it feels like a different culture. It feels, if my website's going to go down, like it feels, I don't know, I just, I just felt the pull. And I've really enjoyed the community and the culture there. And so one quote that I've shared quite a bit, I can't remember if I've said it here yet or not, probably not because we haven't recorded. It's from Adrian Marie Brown. I'm reading emergent strategy right now, which is all about transferational justice and community. And there's a quote in there about what if instead of building mile wide inch deep communities, we built inch wild inch wide mile deep communities. So I think a lot about community. And I know a lot of folks I think have had interest in like divergent conversations. And where do I continue this conversation? So, but we've also both been very burnt out. So anyways, we've talked about starting a substack where we're not exactly sure what it'll look like, but where it would be a place where people could continue the conversation in community. So it's not just them listening to us have a conversation. Yeah. And I think that feels like almost the most natural transition point in this in this like container. Because like you said, we floated a lot of ideas around some of them, we like kind of quarter the way maybe started a little bit and then didn't start. So it does feel like a natural place for for these conversations and connections and communities to continue to grow. Because it's really hard for both Megan and I to respond to messages on Instagram or on email or all of the places. And although we really appreciate all of the love and support and acknowledgement and questions and all the things, it's just too many places to be checking and responding. And so it would be much easier to do so in a nice like cultivated curated community in that way. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. So we are so glad to be back and we're glad that you're with us listening and supporting and hopefully staying as safe as possible right now and diverging conversation episodes are on all major platforms and YouTube on Fridays. And you can like download subscribe and share. Hey, it's Dr. Neff here. This season we are clearly talking about Autistic Burnout, a topic that neurodivergent insights has covered extensively. So if you would like more resources to supplement your learning, we've put together page where we've curated all of our Autistic Burnout resources, freed and paid resources. We have lots of articles on Autistic Burnout. We have a upcoming free email course. It's going to be released soon. We have workbooks on Autistic Burnout. So if you'd like to check out our resources again, both free and paid, you can go to neurodivergentinsights.com/burnout-resources. It's linked below and in the show notes. I hope you don't need these resources, but if you do, they are there for you.