Five things I wish I knew

Before we start, I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which we are recording today, the "Gatagall of the Oranation" and pay my respects to their elders past and present. I send that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today. Here at Allens, they want you to learn and they want you to enjoy yourself. Call for an interview in Mind Open. I'm an intelligent, celebrating, different. ProBino is a really important element. You play a pretty critical role. The work with G-Troids Reconciliation, sustainability and philanthropy. God, my friends have taught me so much during this experience. God, off the train, now is like, "L Woods arriving at Harvard." I was just like, "This is my moment." If you have a smile on your face and you're willing to get stuck in and apply yourself, then you'll bring so much value. Hello, I'm Kat and my pronouns are she, her. I'm Sam and my pronouns are he, him. And welcome to Allens' Compadential. Welcome back to another episode of Allens Confidential. Today we have an exciting interview with two recent clocks. To share five things they wish they knew before applying and completing their clockship. We're joined by Georgia Coleman and Hugo Mirich. Hi, Hugo. Hi, Georgia. Hi. Hello. Georgia, let's start with you. Tell us a bit about yourself. I'm currently in my final year of a Bachelor of Laws and Strategic Communications degree at UTS. I just recently did the summer clockship over the summer of 24 to 25, rotating through CLD, so commercial disputes and investigations, and MAC, which is my acquisitions and capital markets. And now I'm a senior paralegal in the MAC team doing business development. Awesome. It's great to have you in the MAC team, our objectively the best team at the firm. Obviously. No bias whatsoever. Hugo, can you introduce yourself? I'm in my final year of the JD at Melbourne Uni. I also recently clocked at Allens in the summer one intake, and I've rotated through the best team in the firm, the MAC team as well. And now I'm currently a senior paralegal as well, but doing, seeing a bit of a different side of things in the pool and doing a lot of sort of commercial disputes work as well. As always, we are going to do our little Nightmare fuel story. Hugo, what is your Nightmare fuel? What keeps you up at night? What little fun will have you had? I was at a job I had in, and I did legal firm a few years ago. And it was casual Friday, and I was staying at my partner's house who lives quite close to the city where I was working. And I woke up in the morning, and I'd realised that I'd forgotten to pack pants. So I was stressed. I didn't know what I was going to do. So in our scramble, my partner said, "You can borrow a pair of these pants." And they were a pair of women's suprae cargo pants. So I had to spend the day in the office in casual Friday, walking around in a pair of women's suprae pants. It's the only day I will ever do that, hopefully, ever again. But that was the week my biggest professional blonde, I'll let say, over the last few years. Did anyone clock that they were women's pants? To be honest, there were a few people in the office who were sort of quite fashion inclined, and they actually did come to the first and sitting next to me realise that that was a bit bizarre. As someone who's wearing jeans normally every casual Friday. So a couple of people did notice, and it suddenly spread throughout the office. And it's quickly everyone. No, quickly everyone also started wearing suprae cargo pants. It was a bit of a Regina George moment. Exactly right. I set the trend. Trend set, I'm sure you ate that. I'm good up. George, what about you? The clocks were tasked with hosting the monthly Mac event early this year. How these things work is you get set up with a partner and you discuss your interests and then create a theme. And we had just found out that this partner had just got back from Texas. So we thought, okay, perfect. We'll create like a Texan themed rodeo deck up level 28 and do it all fun and fancy. And I had remembered that back in CLD for a Christmas little event that they had port partners faces on cupcakes with Santa hats. And I thought, wow, this is my time to shine. I'm going to put this partner's face on a cupcake, but with a cowboy hat instead. And so I organized all and they arrived on the morning of the event. And everyone absolutely loves them. But I started getting a few comments of like, oh, like, did you get partner approval? Like how did this kind of happen? Like, and yeah, I never got approval from the partner to put his face on a cupcake. Photoshopped with a cowboy hat on, but he loved it. And yeah, we had a joke that you know you've like made it in the world when someone else puts your face on a cupcake. But yeah, less than that always ask. It's a victimless crime though, because the evidence gets eaten. So who's going to know? So let's jump into the five things that you wish that you knew before clockship season and you started your clockship. So Hugo, I will throw to you first. What is your first tip? My first tip and it's a pretty simple one, but it's one that definitely helped me a lot in terms of navigating the sort of time crunch. That is the application period in the lead up to clockships. And that's making sure that you've tidied up and finished up your resume before the application period opens. Because sort of reflecting back on that whole sort of clockship application chaos, you know, you're doing cover letters, you're doing application questions, you're doing psychometric testing. There's so much sort of going on. And it was really valuable for me to think about, what could I control? And what could I sort of arrange and organize before the craziness sort of begins? And regardless of where you're applying to or how many places you're applying to, invariably you're going to have to submit a resume or you're going to have to do a varying into your resume through questions in one way or another. So trying to control that, trying to get that in order and thinking about all that sort of stuff before the application period opens was really helpful for me and meant that I could, you know, sort of make sure I spend enough time with the applications themselves rather than tidying up my resume in that time. Yeah, it's a good way of thinking about it. And it gives you something that you feel like you have a little bit more control over because I know it starts to feel a little bit overwhelming pretty quickly. Georgia, did you have anything to add to that? I would, yeah, I would completely agree in the fact that you know clockships are coming up. And we'll hopefully you do. And the application process is around the same time every year. So if you can spend, yeah, a couple of, you know, hours on it before they open, then it will really benefit you in the application process and knowing how to manage your time. Preparation is key as we keep hearing. And hopefully we did a recent episode on how to set yourself up for success before clockship periods. So maybe I'll listen to that as well. Georgia, let's flip it over to you. What's your first tip? I think it's really important to actually spend some time getting to know yourself and what you can bring to the firm and like just being yourself. I think it's so easy to always compare yourself to everyone else and focus on what you aren't doing. You know, there will be so many people that you'll be up against who are absolutely incredible and have done all these amazing things and play all these instruments and speak so many different languages and been on exchange and volunteered at X, Y and Z everywhere. But I think not getting overwhelmed by what everyone else has done and really focus on what you bring. I promise you'll find something. You'll find a niche that you have. And if you don't have a niche, maybe talk to those who are closest to you and they can help you out and point you in the right direction. Or think of things that aren't typically legal, maybe Hobbies outside of work. Everyone loves to talk about a hobby and yeah, that could be your niche. Is it so important to just be able to bring yourself to work and that's what they're really looking for? So I would really encourage you to find what you bring and what you can bring to the firm because Owens will love that and they will really appreciate your individuality because yeah, as they say, we don't have an Owens type and everyone is welcome. You had a pretty similar tip that you shared with us. Did you want to speak on that as well? Yeah, of course, it's sort of a continuation of that point when it comes to finding your niche. I think it's really important to try and work out what your strengths are or your particular attributes based on the experiences that you have and see how you can try and align them or fit those within the expertise or the strengths of the particular firm that you're applying for. So if you have particular work experience, say in taxation as an example, if you're looking at a firm that's really strong in a tax practice area, see how you can try and utilize that experience in your application throughout the interview process to show a real distinct and keen interest in a particular area of the firm because that can be your niche, but it comes across super genuine because you can actually have tangible experience that you can speak to rather than some research and a foreign issue that you don't really properly understand. And I think on that point as well, it's actually absolutely okay if you don't get know what your legal niche is. This still rings true to both huger and Georgia's points is that you are absolutely okay and we say this all the time to sit in your interview and say, look, you know what, I have an experience enough yet to make a decision about what practice area I want to go into, but I have a passing interest in these practice areas, but I'm also open to listening to different people from different groups, to me about their experience and figuring it out along the way. And your interview is equally as receptive to that kind of response because again, it is just being genuine about yourself and what you know so far and what you've experienced so far. Georgia, I'll throw you next. What was your next tip? Never underestimate the power of a coffee catch up or just a catch up in general with anyone from the firm. The more you get to know about the different practice groups, I still like yet to figure them all out, but it can really help you with your decision of where you want to clock and actually finding going back to the point about your niche. If you meet up with people before the interview process, you can gain like an insight into the firm and what we do and then you can bring that up in your interview. I guess show that you have initiative and things like that. I think also when if you do clock at Alan's, continuing those coffee catch ups because it makes the world of difference when you know people's faces in the office and being able to have a genuine conversation and a smile really goes a long way and makes work so much more fun and more enjoyable. Like Sam and I met years ago at uni and seeing him, I was like, oh my gosh, familiar face. So keeping up your connections and knowing the power of your network at work is really important. A great way to organize these catch ups is when you meet someone at a event, ask their LinkedIn that's completely not weird. Everyone does it and you can send them a message the next day and say, you know, look, it was so lovely to me. You I found our conversation really interesting and I'd love to have another chat. And if you don't have time for a million coffee catch ups because I know it is quite a stressful process, then you can always just hop on a call and have a 15 minute chat and don't be disheartened if someone's not available. Everyone has very busy schedules and if re-scheduling isn't an option, having a quick chat on the phone is also so beneficial and really great. And Hugo, how have you reflected sort of building your networks in throughout, I guess, before you started clocking, did you pick up that networking pace then or did you pick it up while you were clocking how have you gone about that side of your clock shift? Yeah, for sure. I think that anybody who says they're a born network, a cry struggle to believe, I think it's a skill that you sort of practice and you can develop over time. And I think that, you know, relying on your sort of university societies and student clubs are really helpful for that because you might think, oh, you know, I won't attend this sort of networking event, I won't attend this sort of seminar, but every time you do it and you just have one or two conversations, you're just slowly building your skills, your ability to sort of converse and engage with your firm representatives and people, lawyers and the like. And I think that, you know, sort of at the start of the year, I sort of made a real pact with myself to try and be as involved and engage in those sorts of events. And I could sort of see the progress over time in my own sort of ability to engage in converse. And I think that meant that as I approached the whole interview process, I was a bit more comfortable in having, you know, conversations with lawyers when probably up until that point, I really hadn't had many of those sorts of engagements. So I guess my advice would be is that it's a skill that's learned and it can be, I think, quite easily learned. It's just a matter of, you know, sort of throwing yourself a little bit in the deep end and trying to do it as consistently as possible in the lead up to the sort of application period. That resonates very much with me. I think I've said very similar things quite a few times since I've started because, yeah, networking, getting to know people is very much part of being in this world. And the thing is, is that people actually really do want to share their experiences. And now looking back on it, I realized that, you know, if someone would have come up to me at one of the networking evenings and ask, hey, can I organize to catch up with you? I'd be like, yeah, absolutely. I'd love to. Let's move on to the next tip, Pugo. My next tip would be that acceptances and rejections are not a perfect science. I think that it's very easy in the sort of law school bubble to be having conversations with your friends who are also applying for clerkships. And, you know, if one person hears positive news and the others hears negative news to immediately undertake some sort of comparative exercise and go, but this person has this when, but then I've got this work experience, but I've done this volunteering. The reality of the process is that there's hundreds of students applying and as good as the processes are for making sure, you know, great applicants and going great places, people will fall through the cracks and, you know, people are unlucky and that's just the reality of it. And it can be really hard to not take that personally. But I think it was really important just to remember throughout the process that, yeah, it's not a perfect science. People do fall through the cracks and that's just not a reflection or an indictment on your, you know, ability to be a fantastic commercial lawyer. It's just a reality of the very sort of difficult and complex process. And remember that at the end of the day, if you are unsuccessful in getting a clerkship, it's not the end of the world. There are so many other footpaths into private practice. If you're super interested in the firm as well, there are so many other ways into the firm further down in your career. And, George, do you have anything to add? Yeah, I was going to say, I think it's actually worthwhile preparing for rejection and completely normalizing that. I don't know many people that weren't rejected by at least one firm. And so I think we all never know what goes on behind, you know, the people that are making these decisions for that year. And so you can't try to overcomplicate it and you can't try and put a reason on why you didn't get something. It might have not been your fault at all. And it was just the way the cookie crumbled. So I think, yeah, just knowing that you probably will be rejected. And that's completely okay. Because everything happens for a reason. And the firm that is right for you will be there. And even, yeah, echoing what Sam said, if you don't get a clerkship, there are so many other ways to get into commercial law if you are really passionate about it. And that will shine through throughout your career. Yeah. And I think I might also add a little addendum to this one. Because I think it is really, really important to take a very pragmatic approach to the whole process. But that is to find people that are also going through the process with you that are there to support and not as a point of comparison. And that can make all of the difference. Because to be quite honest, like your mom and your dad, your brother, your sister, if they haven't gone through it before, they're not really going to understand what it means to you. But if you've got other people that you're going through it with, they're feeling the same things as you. Very important to have a little little support network that can sympathize with exactly what you're doing at the time. And if I consider add to that point as well, just in terms of like leaning on your friends or people who are going through the process around you, it's also perfectly okay to sort of set boundaries with those people to say, you know what, maybe I don't want to talk about I do want to keep to myself. Because some people really do not want to be talking about it because that can sort of make the whole process even more anxiety, inducing or stressful. So sort of have an idea about how do you want to approach it? Do you want to lean on your friends? Do you want to keep to yourself? Do you want somewhere in between and communicate to your friends? Because you know, they'll be understanding and there's no right way or wrong way to go about it. Every approach is perfectly valid. Georgia, what's your last tip for us? I think one of the most important things that you can be going into the Clarkship season and the Clarkship in general is having an open mind and like pushing yourself outside your comfort zone and doing things that you might not have done unless you like did the Clarkship. I think I put Mac as one of my top preferences because frankly I was a bit scared of it and you know I didn't know what an SPA was or DD like it's a bit like everyone talks about it so much and you're like oh my gosh I haven't done commercial or I don't know what you're talking about and so I found it quite intimidating and I thought okay if there's five weeks in your life where you can try this out it's now so put it down and like give it your best shot and you never know you might end up loving it and that's kind of exactly what happened so I'm so glad that I did push myself and put it as my top preferences and yeah now as I said I'm paralegaling in the Mac team and then loving it even more so I think you will never know what you don't all do like until you try it out and finding out that you don't like something is just as beneficial as finding out that you completely love something so I would encourage you to have an open mind and maybe do something that you wouldn't normally do because it is five weeks and if you love it you love it and if you don't you don't and yeah you have some time to figure things out you go did you have anything to add to that? Yeah look you know I can play at least sort of echo those sentiments I think it and especially if you're doing you know potentially have any opportunity to do multiple Clarkships considering opportunities to do different practice areas could be you know a way to go about it just to get a sort of a broad perspective of what's involved in a commercial law firm and the different sides to things but at the same time there I definitely know people and to be honest I'll tell you one of them myself where had a particular area in mind and just sort of stuck to your guns and sort of done that throughout the process as well so again like there's no no rhyme or reason but I completely agree that having that open mind from the outset is is is it great? Yeah I think even UCM have done a complete 180 in terms of where you've ended up versus what teams you you thought you were going to end up in from personal experience I always thought coming into the Clarkship I would be some you know litigator and take the journey to becoming a barrister and here I am settled in mergers and acquisitions so keep an eye on everyone thank you so much Hugo and thank you so much Georgia hopefully you found those five tips really useful best of luck for your Clarkship applications as we were last year we will be releasing episodes to sort of support your whole application process and let you get to know the firm a little bit more and so we look forward to seeing you in the next episode of Alan's Confidential.