Fit for Kingdom Encounters - Exercising Those Spiritual Muscles

Season 2 Episode 3 Carry shells with Esther Hayam, fit for kingdom encounters, exercising those spiritual muscles. Jesus tells us you'll do greater things than me. He gives us power and authority in Jesus' name, so cast out demons, heal the sick, preach that the kingdom of God is near. And yet sometimes as Christians we sort of forget that and this is not in any way criticizing or speaking down any church, culture or church network, only just to say. Let's not spend three hours on a Sunday reading about the disciples doing this stuff or meeting some great people who've done this stuff in other parts of the world. This is our stuff to do. This is our job to do it. Yes. And we just need to get over ourselves and form some ways to do it. And I'm not for this next view. Well hello and welcome back to Carry shells. I'm Catherine Grimes your host and it is always such a pleasure to be with you and to connect with you. This is a very special space for women of faith. We hope that it is going to encourage you, empower you and connect you with women all around the world, ultimately as we share our stories together. Inspiring one another to keep pursuing Jesus. So here in the studio today, I have a lovely lady called Esther Hayam. You may well have come across her name previously. Esther is passionate about communications and making Jesus known. She's best known for her voice on Christian radio. Esther Hayam presents premier Christian radio and she presents their inspirational breakfast show. She also runs a creative consultancy with her husband. She and Jeremy also lead Mojo, Ministers of Jesus out there, which is aiming to equip ordinary believers to do the things Jesus did in their everyday lives. I love that. That's an acronym Esther. Brilliant. Great. Thank you. Welcome. Welcome to Carry shells. It's great to be here as well. So Esther, let's kick off first of all with a little bit about your childhood. I mean, obviously your name is very familiar in Christian radio circles, thanks to your role in presenting inspirational breakfast. I imagine that you regularly connect with individuals face to face online. You're interviewing all the time. It must feel a bit strange to be on the other end. It really is quite strange actually. I haven't done lots of interviews, but I have done a couple. And I actually realise what a gift it is to be a good interviewer. And so, yeah, I'm slightly nervous about being on the other side of the microphone. I'm much prefer being in your shoes. Would you like me to grade you at the end? I'm sure that you'll be a 10 out of 10 interviewer. So tell us more about yourself then. Tell us about your childhood. Who was most influential in your life and what shaped you growing up as a child? Wow. That's a good question. So I was a pretty happy child. I was brought up in a Christian home. My dad's still alive, thanks to me to God and both passionate Christians. And very much sort of running the small village Baptist church where we went as a family for many years. I've got one older sister as well. Anna, you know, lives in Australia. So a little unit of four, quite a small family, really, not a big extended family. But church was literally was our second home. It was just a hundred yards across the road from our house. A little village Baptist church with no minister. So mum and dad would often be the ones. We'd have lots of visiting speakers from Spurgeon's College. And so quite often they would come, you know, they would come for the morning service. We'd host them for lunch. We'd go out for a walk on Toys Hill and then they'd come back for the evening service. Where we would go as well. So me and my sister, even quite a young age, would be sat through relatively dull. You know, village Baptist church evening service. But strangely all of that didn't put me off. I was, I think there's a kid like this in every church. I've definitely observed that growing up. There's always the young kid who sort of gets it quite early on who, you know, answers all the questions. Always at the front doing something and that was me. And I think just because I think I sensed God quite early and I met Jesus early. You know, I remember the moment becoming a Christian at the age of six. Having, you know, having grown up in church but went off to a beach mission, you know, Rishan with my grandma in broadsters when I was six. And probably that was when the penny dropped that you need to ask Jesus into your life. Okay. Okay. So age six. So I did that age six. And I really remember the moment and I really remember the feeling. And then as I got older, I realised that was my first experience of the Holy Spirit. But the church we were in at the time didn't particularly use that language. But that was definitely, you know, my first experience of coming to know Jesus. And so tell us about that feeling then. You said with hindsight you could identify that was the Holy Spirit to a child and through a child's lens. How did it feel? Yeah. I guess it felt, it felt warm. It felt joyful. It felt like something had happened for sure. And I can remember, because I was actually back at home that night and I remember praying the prayer, "Dear Jesus, please come into my life." And I remember then running downstairs to my parents who then rang my grandma who had taken me on the holiday. So I guess that mixture of joy and warmth but also a weightiness to it as well. Yeah. Just something had happened. Yes. And you tangibly knew that. Yeah. That's really lovely, isn't it? Yeah. Even as a six-year-old. Yeah. Well, I'm a real believer probably because of my experience. And what I've noticed in my own children and others as well is kids hear from God. Yes. Kids sense God. They know God. Yes. You know, let's not dismiss any of these spiritual encounters that our children have as being just a kid thing. It's the thing. That's why Jesus tells us to be like little children because he recognizes that kids know God. Yes. Yes. I love it. Preach it. So you obviously had, as you say, you almost grew up in the church. It was your second home. You came to know Jesus age 6. As you developed into your teens, which is a time when for all of us, hormones are raging. There might be lots of potential challenges that come towards us. What for you did your faith mean? Did you continue to pursue God throughout your teens? Or was it a sort of a stickier time for you? Yeah, no, I did continue to pursue God. And I think part of it is my parents were very wise. So I didn't have to do a teenage rebellion because they sort of let me get on with it. So I had stupid hairstyles. I wore stupid clothes. Actually, they were really cool. I was a real indie kid. Late 80s, early 90s, real indie kid. Me and a girl from school formed a band together. We were playing in pubs and clubs. If you know Tumberjoyles at all, there's a club there called The Forum. The early days, it was like a series of indie gigs in different village halls around the area in different scout clubs. And the Red Alarm Clubs, as we were called, were quite often. Red Alarm Clubs. What a cool name. This is the late 80s. The late 80s indie scene. So you know, it was all about whimsical, fun and three-cord songs and staring at issues and all that sort of thing. So we were so into that scene. Absolutely loved it. And so that was my, you know, one world was that, the kind of indie music scene of late 80s. But at the same time, really passionate about my faith. So I remember there's one moment that I think encapsulates where I was at the age of 17, probably. That we've been playing a gig in somewhere in the area on the Saturday night. And loads of my mates had slept on the floor. Boys and girls, most of them not Christians. And then I got up in the morning on Sunday and tipped toad over them to go and do Sunday school at my church. You know, so there was this kind of, it wasn't two worlds totally separate. It was two worlds colliding. And I was fully inhabiting both of those worlds. And I would love to say that, you know, I was a great evangelist and loads of those teenagers keeping on my floor came to faith. And they didn't as far as I know. I would now advise my 17 year old self to be a bit bolder out there bringing to everyone knew I was a Christian. Everyone knew I went to church. But probably what I liked then was that real confidence to minister in the power of the spirit to speak into some of those situations. So I was nice. I was lovely Esther who, you know, could do a bit of both. But I probably didn't see a breakthrough in the way that now I would love to see. But I was very happy in both of those worlds, you know. And I wanted to do, do your colleagues know that actually your love for music began with the Red Alon clocks? Oh yes, we were officially the 10th best band in Tumberidge Wells according to a poll in the fanzine. So we're going to have to check records after. But I think, you know, that is definitely a theme that has stayed with me right throughout my life really. I love mixing mainstream worlds with the Kingdom worlds. I think, you know, for me, I think I'm actually more alive in settings that aren't totally Christian. I love being in the world. I take seriously that being the world, but not of it. Yes. But I love being in the world. So does that link to things straight into your involvement with Mojo? Let's jump to that. Let's hear you talk a bit more about Mojo. I think when you get to your early 50s, you can look back and see the themes. And you can see the sort of threads that have woven through your life. And my husband Jeremy, we've been married for 23 years. When we met, he'd only just become a Christian. So at the age of 35, 36, having not at all been interested, having very much lived the sort of media, bachelor life in London. And all that came with that, he then came crashing into the Kingdom of God in a very dramatic way. And so when we moved on to the Kingdom of God, had been a Christian for about a year and I've been a Christian pretty much you know all my life. So I think we share and he's also been working in the media as well at a much higher level than I had been and so I think we both have that passion for the world and creative people and people in the comms world and that sense that there's lots of people out there really searching hard as he was really searching hard for meaning and then when you find it in Jesus you know everything changes I think also just backtracking just to leave it. So definitely a theme that went from becoming Christian at the age of six but having been in church my whole life it wasn't until my mid-20s where I really understood the everyday work of the Holy Spirit that I can look back at that conferences I went to spring harvest where I'd have an experience of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. But it wasn't until our brilliant Vicaran London John Peters who's still there at St Mary's Prime St. Square just talked about it's normal it's every day it is the power to live your life as a Christian in everyday life and I was like oh right I think I've been trying to join those dots for 20 years as a Christian and then it was then just you know normal common sense stuff like if you want to speak in tongues you've got to open your mouth and make a noise and it doesn't have to be a holy noise to start off with the Holy Spirit well you know like that flame and I'm like oh right but you're so right I mean just to interject briefly you know it seems so simple doesn't it when we put it like that but actually I think often in the church it becomes this convoluted thing of you know you need you need to seek the Holy Spirit and and you've got to get into a place where you can really understand him and follow him and you know actually you know he is just the Holy Spirit the third person of the Trinity and he's here and he's available so exactly that exactly you know several times I've been you know praying for the gift of tongues all waiting for the Holy Spirit to come but not actually doing anything and you know it doesn't come in the vacuum anyway so it's been that sort of strain of learning how to sort of work hand in hand with the Holy Spirit day to day Jeremy had a very dramatic in filling out the Holy Spirit like the minute he asked Jesus into his life so there's that kind of desire to bring together to join the dots between the mainstream world and the kingdom world and recognizing I suppose that what does that the glue that does that is is the Holy Spirit so Mojo ministers of Jesus out there is really trying to help equip ordinary everyday Christians to use the power of Jesus and they're ordinary everyday lives so that those extraordinary things happen and you know Jesus tells us you'll do greater things than than me he gives us power and authority in Jesus name so cast out demons he'll seek preach that the kingdom of God is is near and yet sometimes as Christians we sort of forget that and this is not in any way criticizing or speaking down any church culture or church network only just to say let's not spend three hours on a Sunday reading about the disciples doing this stuff or meeting some great people who've done this stuff in other parts of the world this is our stuff to do this is our job to do it and we just need to get over ourselves and not for this select view and then what's great is what we've noticed over the last few years we've been doing this people all sort of sidele up to us and say well I prayed for a colleague in my job and her back got healed we're like brilliant tell everybody tell everybody in your church this is our stuff to do Jesus has definitely and explicitly given it's this job to do and so we've just found some simple ways to help you know get our confidence in doing that so the next time your colleague comes in with a bad back you go oh I can pray for that if you like and it will feel as normal as offering them a cup of tea because you've had to go at experimenting how to do that out of your everyday contexts so typically what we'll do is take people away from a weekend or even just for a day go to a place where you don't know anyone or you don't know you don't know which are the poor bits which are the rich bits which are the cool bits which are the you know we go out we're led by this spirit sometimes we get some music going so there's a kind of you know a bit of a thing that people gather around but not always sometimes we'll just go out and choose sitting coffee shops and see if the spirit is leading us to chat to people sometimes someone decide to get up and you know do a two minute sermon one guy came out with this and bought a little foldable table and a you know a game of drafts and sort of left the other chair empty so that people could join in so we find ways to just loosen ourselves up a bit be open to the spirit and there's always an encounter there's always an encounter effectively a little bit like almost a live workshop yes exactly that I see yes these these people have come for the day they've signed up and they've said yes I'm willing I'm wanting to go out and exercise the Holy Spirit you know he's in me and I want to see him work yeah and then you provide that opportunity for them to do that and presumably encourage them as well to be spontaneous to look for the opportunities to be led by the spirit and have a go and and so of course you know the prayer is well that people in black burn or brighten or or Hastings wherever we've gone people get blessed and get pointed to Jesus that there's a kingdom encounter there that's what we want but actually their main aim isn't to evangelise that town the main aim is that Catherine comes out with us has an experience where she's just gone out of her comfort zone a bit and gone oh Holy Spirit you were there Jesus you did something you know I'd love to tell you that the Holy Spirit comes in power and the whole of Dover is saved when we go out on a Sunday afternoon it doesn't always happen like that but people go oh I heard from God so for example my friend Becky came out with us on one of our early trips up to Brixton I think it was in London where we used to live strangely and on the way out we'll always sort of say anyone hearing anything from God you know sometimes we'll use the treasure hunting model from Bethel which you may be familiar with where you just say we pray together and we say God give us some clues who are you going to speak to today and it might be woman in a red coat or bloke standing via bus stop or that sort of thing and Becky went oh I just sense somebody probably a woman whose name begins with B I don't think she'd ever practiced hearing from God like that before so that was new for her the whole afternoon we went out and about lots of stories I could tell you about that but it was on the way home in Victoria station we'd been doing quite a lot of music that day because there were quite a few musicians with us and we just broke out into I can't remember if it was a worship song it was a worship song not a Christmas cowl anyway we started singing this song and this girl is walking across the concourse at Victoria station which you may know is quite big and open and she stopped and she took her headphones off and sort of looked at us quizzically she went why were no other people singing a worship song in Victoria station and it turned out she sort of had been a question but sort of walked away from the faith a little bit and she got chatting to Becky and Becky says what's your name and she says Bernadette and Becky goes oh how funny there's the bee there's the bee I've been waiting you know God told me I would speak to somebody who's named begin with bee and I think that's you and I think he just wants to encourage you and she went that is exactly what I needed to hear so that really not only met that girl who but actually it also met Becky in that sense of saying I can be empowered and I can step out of faith okay so Mojo then you're saying is about empowerment you are wanting Christians to recognise the power that is already there but to step into that reality yes yes I got to come out with a next-time gathering you've already got it I'm already saying that it's so small you know in some ways because we're in the early days of this ministry and love talking about it and meeting church leaders to encourage them to you know maybe have a go and you kind of obviously is the leader of something you always felt you're having to justify it so you kind of part of me really wants to tell these amazing stories of legs growing and all that kind of thing and you know please Jesus we want to see that happen too but actually it's also those small things that Becky now knows she hears from God accurately and when she goes out in faith and acts on that word something happens I think these tiny little everyday lessons are absolutely central to what we're doing there and if you're listening and you know that you sometimes hear those little words from God but you but you also feel unsure about acting on them because what if it's just me and what if it's not it's God Jesus is speaking to you have a go at walking out in that word of faith and see what happens it's these tiny little everyday lessons that I think are so important because cumulatively they build into living a life of faith in which kingdom encounters happen and people come to know Jesus that's what we want which which is amazing isn't it frankly we all want to point to Jesus and we want to seize every opportunity possible and to have the boldness to do that because frankly it doesn't matter what person A B C next to us thinks it's Jesus we're doing it for isn't it but these are muscles that can be built and they are things that can be exercised so you know if you want to lose your belly flab which I do so I'm doing my little exercises in the morning spiritual belly flab I love it yeah there are spiritual exercises we can do so that we just feel that bit fitter because everything matters doesn't it the encounter and the vast matters that share with your colleague even if it's on teams that's another story a little story yeah yeah yeah please do no no no I love stories so another thing we're doing as an expression of mojo but more in our local area rather than going out is a thing called prayer works which is just a team of Christians from different local churches and every week we go out and we've got blue hoodies with prayer works on we deliver cards to every home in our town we put it up on Facebook we've got a WhatsApp number that people can message in with with prayer requests so that again it's just providing another context where we're just out there saying we've got something to give you we've got something to give you as Christians 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Lovely and you know as you were saying that as well Esther I was thinking there's two things that strike me and I'd love us to draw out a bit more and the first thing was you talked at the beginning about that verse John 1412 yes and you said this is Jesus's words very truly I tell you whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing and they will do even greater things than these. Now let's ask you what what is your take on that verse when Jesus says you will do greater things than these are you talking about quantity or are you talking about a qualitative sort of approach because this has been debated for some time hasn't it but from what you said to me with Mojo it feels like it's not greater than Jesus in the sense of saying more powerful but actually it's a greater quantity because it's every individual everywhere who is carrying his Holy Spirit. Yeah I mean I know theologian and and it is mind blowing I mean again it sort of illustrates that beautiful humility that Jesus carried in his life on even though he was the literal actual son of God you know creator of the universe and all the rest of it so I think it's just such a beautiful insight into his his character when he says that but I also think it is a promise to us and I thought we shouldn't limit ourselves but it is very possible that Jesus meant you will do greater things in power as well although that is mind blowing to believe I haven't seen that yet in my own life I think there's also he's also speaking to scale isn't he? Yes that all of us you know with Jesus living in us you know the scale of that is incredible the exponential scale of every believer living out that promise is extraordinary so I suppose it is both and let's believe that mountains will move and people will be raised from the dead and demons will flee in Jesus name we've slightly forgotten how to do that as the church in the west and we've got to wake up to it so I think it's both and but what's so interesting isn't it whenever we speak out that verse I think we quite often slightly shudder don't we think surely he doesn't mean that surely he doesn't mean greater and I suppose the challenge to is is maybe he does maybe he does maybe he does yeah yeah no I like your take on it thank you and I think the other thing then that strikes me is you're talking about mojo and you're saying you know it transcends age first of all which is wonderful but actually it also transcends another facet doesn't it in terms of people's careers and and what they're doing so I know before you and I met one of the things I asked you was are there any themes that you really want to bring out and one thing you said to me was talking more about that so-called sacred secular divide which I think is very widespread in the church actually worldwide that there is this perception isn't there that actually to be a pastor to be a minister to be a vicar to be a full-time missionary is seen as valid and holy and serving God but actually if I'm a lawyer you know in my everyday work or I'm a construction worker or I'm grooming dogs for a living whatever it is actually that's not so valid that's not an opportunity to be missional now you and I know are completely like no this is so wrong so tell us more about that from your perspective yeah I mean it's a really noble and valid thing to lead a church or a Christian ministry and you know I talk to absolutely incredible people every day who who are doing that so it's not criticizing that only to say that I also think our models of church are going to have to change and are going to have to change and we're going to see less people in full-time Christian ministry and more people are having to do a hybrid thing and I think that's a good thing because again part of the thing behind Mojo is that actually we've got into a church culture where and I've heard this from church leaders who sort of slightly feel like there's this unspoken thing that I turn up I do a good sermon I entertain you for an hour and a half we get good band-ins you know if it's a swanky church we get some good lights on if it's not you that kind of there's this you know this thing that you come and fill up on something that's that feels good but actually you go home undisturbed what I'm saying is I think the model is changing whereby we don't come and consume some good stuff on a Sunday and then get on with our life and pay our mortgages the rest of the week and I know we talk about that quite a lot but I feel still think our church model leads into a bit of dependency and actually you know we talk quite a lot about our role as leading Mojo and our role as we see church leaders is to be the kind of the coach the coach for a team the coach is not on the pitch yeah you're you're there in players of your football team you're seven players in your netball team or I have no idea how many people play in a rugby team it seems to be about 45 but you know the players on the pitch are you and me in our everyday lives and actually what we need our church leaders to do is it's coach us and encourage us to get out there we're doing the stuff you know not not just my normal at the front of the church on a Sunday morning so I think there is a need to recognise that the real stuff of the kingdom is not just happening our churches it's happening on our streets in our football teams in the pub in our workplaces in our families that don't know Jesus yet and so that's really important to really grasp that living our everyday lives is where the kingdom is coming yes and so we've got to do it so yeah I really believe that the actual work of the kingdom coming is in our everyday lives but I think it's also reflected in the wider culture as well and it's really interesting to me that at this year alone in the world of music for example you've had Stormzy who's definitely not afraid to drop an f-bomb in his lyrics but is also not afraid to stand up with the Britta wards in front of thousands you know beamed all over the world and whilst accepting his award read out a song and say I am here for Jesus my king you know absolutely genuine 100% genuine you know the other side of the musical spectrum you've got Mumford and sons at Marcus Mumford has always been a Christian and Christians have gone don't you know that Marcus Mumford is a Christian now on his new album he's got something that's you know absolutely a worship song and you know very unafraid to bring biblical quotations and real spiritual themes into his music so you've got this kind of blending of the world's coming already in culture and I used to for 10 years I ran a movie night at my church called the Ministry of Movies only playing mainstream films a recent mainstream releases you know and there's as a much spiritual food or you know spiritual questions in a big mainstream movie as there is there is oh yeah all asking these questions all the time I'm asking these questions the human condition is the big fascination of all of us and Jesus it's in the middle of those questions so for me whether it was indie music as a teenager or mainstream movies as an adult you know we've got to kind of recognise that God is at work in the creative outpouring so lots of people who don't know him yet or don't know the thing that we're doing yes yes definitely and when we're doing it we do music nights as well, Mojo Music which is doing acoustic sing-alongs in our local pubs and most of the time we don't occasionally we drop in a worship song particularly if it's a worship song that kind of doesn't specifically mention Jesus you know there are moments in there when people are singing along and it could be an oasis song and you just sort of feel oh the spirit is here you know they don't know their worshiping but they are and the prayer is there as they sense oh that felt good what was that you know on the other flip side you know recognising though while I've always felt a call to mainstream media you know my work for the last five years has been for you know very much a Christian radio station with a Christian audience and in a way I try and flip it the other way while I'm on air is encouraging Christians that there is stuff in mainstream culture and mainstream news and mainstream jobs. So it goes both ways for me making sure Christians you know feel confident to engage with mainstream media and then finding you know what's good in the mainstream. So that's been really interesting to hear how passionate Mojo is about getting people out into the everyday recognizing who they are in Christ and wanting to exercise that. I suppose my question would be Esther for the sake of listeners and for you and I here as well you know let's talk about how as women can we actually do that practically what does that look like for us in everyday life because it's all well and good are sitting here and saying passionately yes you know Jesus has said we could do greater things in in quantity in in power you know we believe that and we want to to see that realized but it's that gap isn't it between wanting it to happen and making it happen. How are women in in our everyday do you think we can see that become a reality? So I think the first thing is you know really enlarge our understanding of who we are in Christ. We are daughters of the most high god we are princesses in the kingdom we are seated in the heavenly places we've been given authority to do these things and maybe particularly as women perhaps maybe younger women are getting this quicker than we are perhaps women in middle age you know we've spent a lot of time looking after people being good girls you know mining our peas and cues I think there's still a big discussion around making sure women you know use their voice and and recognize how valuable their voices so there's a big piece of work to do for us as individuals is recognizing what we've been given in Christ and you know at a spiritual personal internal level let's recognize who we are let's really you know meditate on that and affirm each other in that that's you know because of Jesus living in us because of the Holy Spirit we are different we are different we're inhabiting a different reality and so then our role in our everyday lives is to open the door to the kingdom you know whether we're caring for little kids or caring for elderly parents whether we're out in the work in the juggle of it all you know let's be active in and you know I have to remind myself of this every single day as well if I'm shopping in the supermarket I'm here with the presence of Jesus Lord is there an encounter that you want me to help happen today and honestly some of the time I've only got two minutes and I've got a shopping list and I've got to get back for something and I'm not open to what the Spirit is doing I've got to be absolutely honest about that but even if 20% of the time we can take a moment to open ourselves to the Spirit and say what are you doing here Lord and is there something I can do a good friend of mine whose kids are a little bit older than ours and so when my kids are a little you know she was quite a role model and a mentor to me and that was always her prayer so wherever I am I try and say holy Spirit what you're doing and is there anything you want me to do to help and I think even that simple prayer opens us back up to the opportunity but what does that mean practically so I think often practically I don't know we quite often teach when we're doing these trainings you know have your ear open to the Spirit as well as to the conversation that you're in yeah so if you're at work and somebody is talking about how stressed they are how much they've got to do again it's just taking that pause Holy Spirit is this a moment to offer something and sometimes it won't be sometimes that person won't be open so yeah so practically it's keeping that third year open the ear of your the spirit open Holy Spirit so I think you want me to do your colleagues talking about how stressed they are how many deadlines they've got taking you moment to say is this is this a moment Lord and maybe it is a moment to say do you know what one of my feel stressed I just try and take a moment to pray would you like me to pray for you because prayer is so powerful isn't it prayer is always something we can offer to others yeah it's very rarely do they say that exactly very often they they will say yes yes please yeah yeah so I think there is that you know offering what we've got again you know simple your colleagues got a dodgy knee because they've put it out at tennis you know why not why not for to pray they might think you're a weirdo the worst they're going to say is arm right thank you or they might go yeah go on then and a simple putting your hand on their knee always as permission you know praying it doesn't have to be long no Jesus would you heal Ben's knee by a Holy Spirit yeah quite often when we talk about healing prayer and try and teach on it Christians will say what if it doesn't happen that's a real concern for us and I totally understand that am I going to over promise an under deliver if I offer to pray for someone and nothing happens I really don't think that's an issue for most of our non-Christian friends they're so surprised you've offered in the first place their expectations are on the floor anyway because they don't really believe that God heals and that doesn't matter because if you believe and you're doing it in the name of Jesus you know there's every possibility that something might happen I don't actually think people are that bothered about when something happens or not because they've spent 45 quid on reiki the week before and maybe that didn't happen either so I think we've got to get over ourselves on that and just start to offer it prayer works prayer is the one simple thing we've got to offer and I think let's just be 10% bolder in offering that a good friend of mine Lizzie who's part of the Mojo community is an officer in the Met police and she she just told me a story she moved teams recently she'd been leading a team she's moved teams she spent a whole evening writing goodbye cards to her team and each of them had a scripture in and what have you and she got beautiful response from people on that and then also what her leaving do the number of people who talked about you know Lizzie praying for this or that or the other people notice you know it's such a simple thing that's amazing so she really left a legacy yeah left a legacy behind and we can do that yeah um the the lesson I left from Lizzie was as well be honest about who you are be honest about the fact that you have a faith and it can just be as simple as what to do at the weekend I went to church on Sunday and you maybe don't need to say anything else for for a number of months but the people know who you are people are watching you they do watch your values yes and then just just looking out for those moments when you can pray or minister or just share a bit of wisdom sometimes you know in the workplace it might just be standing up for someone yeah actually you know saying something different to the narrative that's going around these are all such simple things it doesn't feel like it's rocket science does it but I think we do need to encourage each other to do that because that's what's standing up for Jesus and bringing Kingdom encounters into your everyday life it's all about what it looks like yes yes so let's just recap very briefly then for the sake of our listeners Esther and for me to be honest was saying that we want to be really rooted in our identity in Christ we want the watching world to know who we are we want to take every opportunity to pray for and reach out to those around us but in doing that we want to simultaneously have that third year open to the Holy Spirit yeah yes and sometimes sorry just a quick extra one sometimes it's just practical help as well you know actually someone stressed I'm going to help you with that someone needs a babysitter can you do that you know actually showing up in practical terms yes being a servant isn't it really looking for those opportunities where you can show love and compassion yeah definitely so Esther time is running away with us and I would love to ask you a little bit more about your experiences with radio yeah what is it that you love most about your job and have you seen God do unexpected things during your time with premier radio so what I love about live radio and what I love about the work I do at premier is that I think I'm a gatherer I'm a gatherer of people you know one of the things I love doing is is creating live moments where people can gather around it and I think for me live radio the fact that Betty is listening in Harrogate and Bob is listening in London and you know someone else is we had listens in Germany today actually getting in touch so for me that sort of sense that we are creating a live moment that we're all sharing it you know for me that is that's the dopamine here that's the drug that's the joy of like oh we're all in this together listening to me get my words wrong or you know what which of happens often or just those moments where you know someone shares something so powerful that you can sort of you can hear the crackle in the air it's the crackle of the Holy Spirit isn't it you know when you get those moments and yet you can sort of hear the the echo of it it's quite hard to define but I think we know it when we're in it you know and so the the possibility to create that every morning is a real is a real joy and and that's what keeps me coming back for more. I was going to say is that what gets you after the morning is that bad? I'm not a naughty person by nature by nature. What time do you have to rise? When I go to London I'm up at quarter to five so it's not crazy crazy but it's you know it's early enough. Four forty five. Yeah yeah I do have an afternoon nap where it's possible. So that's the joy for me that sense that we're we're gathering we're connecting in something and I think yeah see human beings need those live moments but you know right back to our caveman days round the fire you know that we need we need that. We're made for connection. We're made for connection absolutely so creating that live moment and and I almost have like an embarrassment of riches because by nine o'clock in the morning I've typically done four interviews with great fascinating people and my mission really for the breakfast show is that someone listening, waking up in the morning, will always start with a devotional time, you know, focused ourselves on God. And then it's like, what's going on in the world? Can I provide you with an expert on what's happening in Gaza, what's happening in Ukraine, what's happening in politics, what's happening in culture? Can I have a conversation with someone who's an expert in that so that you're equipped, again, for those moments on the bus in your office, or you've actually got a biblical perspective on what's happening, you know. So again, you must see yourself like a coach in a way that you're providing that information, you're providing that opportunity and you're just chipping them on. Yeah, because I want to equip people. Again, that comes back to that. I want you to be equipped if you've listened that you can go out in the world confident that you know what's happening and you've got something to bring to the conversation. Now more than ever, when there's such a negative narrative going on, you know, world conflict politicians don't care. They're all enough for themselves. All right, you know, it's the people of God we've got to have a different narrative. We've got to understand what's going on. We've got to have a different narrative that brings hope into the situation. And you know, that's why we're doing Cari Shell's Esther because we want these stories of hope. We want these stories, you know, of reality, but with God in the centre of that reality, to go out across the world and to be a counterbalance against that negativity that bad news, that's our role, isn't it? And it's one to share that whole. And it's so easy, you know, scrolling through your social media feed or listening on the bus. My daughter came home from school the other day and she just had this sort of stream of misinformation. She wasn't necessarily believing it, but she said, "Oh, you know, I heard that immigrants are wanting to change the flag and we're on the brink of world war three." I'm like, "Where are you getting this stuff from?" So not only is there this sort of narrative of despair, there's this stream of misinformation. Yes. So, like, "We're taking our AI as well, presumably." Yeah. And so we can get caught up in that. Yeah. So, you know, taking those poor moments, getting yourselves informed, making sure we're looking at stuff through the lens of the Bible and with the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. Yes. You know, imagine if, you know, I don't know how many people listen every morning, but you know, it can be as many as a hundred thousand people listening. If some of those people are equipped to go back out into the world with a slightly different narrative on a slightly different lens, then that's my job done. For the day anyway. Good, good for you. Good equipment. Yeah. But in terms of seeing God do extraordinary things, I think again, you know, it's often about just those moments, a little moment of truth and a moment of someone revealing how God has been at work in their life. And very occasionally, I don't do this very often because I've always got my eye on, you know, how does this sound to somebody who isn't a Christian, but maybe that's why I did this the other morning. I was interviewing a really, oh, the veteran preacher, Jeff Lucas, he actually joined me for the whole show. And I think I asked him, he used the word grace and I was like, Jeff, for somebody who doesn't really know what that means, you know, what do you mean by grace? And of course, because it's a great preacher and a great evangelist. He did like a two-minute thing on what grace was. And in that moment, I thought somebody might be hearing this for the first time. And I don't think I've ever done this in five years of presenting the show. I went, if you're listening and you don't know Jesus and you actually haven't given your life to Jesus, let's just do that now, shall we? And so, Jeff, then did a beautiful prayer of, you know, I need to be precise. I don't know if anybody came to Jesus that day, but that felt like a recent example of God slightly invading, you know, my plans for the day. But I love that because, you know, that's being attuned to His Spirit, isn't it? You know, allowing that spontaneity to come in. And as you say, interrupt our plans, you know, and maybe you won't know the side of heaven, but one day you will. Yeah, actually, I really do. You know what, there was a moment 10, 30 a.m. there I was listening to the radio and suddenly I got it, you know, yeah, amazing. I think as far another really key moment was actually the early days of the Ukraine conflict, when the world was slightly reeling from, as this actually happened, as Russia just got in with tanks and 100,000 troops. And our brilliant news team, who are really brilliant and really hard working, they were able to get a pastor from Ukraine on, you know, within days of happening. And that, again, that's the connection thing, that's the creating a moment, where you could hear from someone saying, this is what's happening. This is how it feels. This is how we need you to pray. And I know lots of ministries were doing brilliant things to sort of do Zoom prayer meetings and all that kind of thing, but to play my part in that, where you connect people up to say, you know, this is the body of Christ. This is the family of God supporting each other and connecting with each other. That is the power of radio, live radio to do that. Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. And you know, obviously being that presenter and consistently, not only, filtering and giving that information, but actually letting your faith shine through, that means that in private as well as an individual, you need to be pursuing Jesus. So as to just give us a glimpse of what it looks like for you, do you have any disciplines, do you have any specific recommendations or tips that you could give us in the way that you weren't choosing to pursue Jesus? That's such a lovely question. So I have always, I mean, I've been, what about 53 now? I've had a Christian at six. I can't do the maths on not enough cups of coffee, but I've been a Christian for over 40 years and I've always been really, really bad at daily rhythms. I think I'm not a very having forming person, so I'm really bad at that. Maybe that is why God's got me in Christian radios first. I do actually have a Christian diet and a pair of worship. I really, again, I'm because of a very community focused person, I'm an extrovert by nature, so I love, I love doing prayer and worship and a Bible with people. So fortunately my husband is a Christian, my kids as well, so we try and worship together as a family quite a lot, but recently God has, he has been talking to me about making sure I'm fit, so I actually have been doing physical exercise in the morning, but trying to make sure I'm getting some spiritual exercise in as well. And Friday mornings are my, they're sort of a bit of a holy time because I don't do the show. So I can sleep a little bit longer, sometimes a lot longer, and I'm trying to really get a rhythm of properly reflecting on my wake. Again, I get access to a lot of wisdom every single day. Absolutely. But sometimes I'm on to the next thing already, you know, so actually trying to make sure I take time on a Friday morning to get my notebook out, get my Bible out, get my cup of coffee, if it's nice weather, sit in the garden and go, 'Right God, what have you been doing this week? What have I noticed? Help me, help me take a bit more notice of what you've been showing me?' And so that's, that's been really good practice for me, in a way it's actually writing it, writing it out, writing it down, looking back through, even like looking back through the running orders of the show and going, 'Oh yeah, there's some real wisdom there.' And so because I'm somebody who juggles a lot, you know, every day is quite packed, trying to put that discipline in now of reflecting, and hearing from God and saying, 'Okay, noticing.' That's really beautiful, as you say, just noticing, choosing to notice, choosing to pause in the madness of modern life for us, and choosing to hear and reflect. I think that's something we can all choose to do, can't we? But it is a choice. It is a choice, and it's a discipline and you know, I am really, I'm a funny thing, one of my favourite questions to people I'm interviewing is quite often, yeah, can I even drop on your quiet time with God? What's it like? It's really interesting when people laugh at us. Let's flip that. Yeah, let's flip that. And I don't know, I just, I just remember one of the, the loveliest moments recently was, I think I was probably reflecting on the amount of juggling and the amount of platespinning that I have, and I just sort of remember slightly asking God, 'How do you hold it all together?' And I don't often, I've never heard the audible voice of God, but I did sense God's saying, 'Because I'm God, they really made me laugh!' I'm like, 'I don't know, OK, come on with God!' And by time with them, I was like, 'Yeah, yeah, you've got this, you've got this down, we have still learning how to keep up.' I'm betting he had a chuckle with me. So, yeah, don't make me laugh. And just kind of, you know, that is all the questions we have, all the challenges we might have, all the big questions we can throw at God, and sometimes the answer is, 'Because I'm God!' Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And that, that seems a really good place, actually, for us to ramp our fester. So, I'm going to ask you one last question, just to throw in there as an extra. We talked about the fact that Carrey Tellers is about looking for those treasures in our lives. Now, you've given us a really detailed glimpse of your passion for Mojo, of the way that God is using you in your premier role there as well. Let me just ask you, again, from a personal lens, looking back at your life and with the benefit of hindsight, able to see how God has been that thread throughout your life. Can you just pinpoint any times when there's been real moments of struggle for you and you've overcome through God's help and what that's looked like? It's interesting, isn't it? Because it lots of ways my life's should have been very boring, you know, I haven't, thanks for being to God, I haven't been through big experiences of struggle with physical health or mental health or grief, you know, so although I've lived long enough life now, I'm very grateful for the journey that I've had. But even so, it's in those, I remember, it's good to have your heart broken, isn't it? What sort of I was in your life? And I definitely had an experience of that just before I met my husband, actually. And that was a time when I properly had to sort of lay it all down. These plans, these hopes, this experience, the sense of humiliation, you know, all of that going, that is nothing compared to you. God and so now I know that life is about you. Just being really challenged by God about, you know, when Paul says, "I can't remember where I would have to Google it," everything else is dross compared to knowing Jesus. God really challenged me on those things you dream of, those ambitions that you have Esther. They're good, they're natural desires that I put in you, but actually they are nothing. They are the drops on their head to what you've done. Are you prepared just to live for me? But that to be enough and sort of, you know, loving through the tears and the tissues and the. Okay, yes it is. So God's challenged me as much as He's comforted me. And I think that is also where it's at, isn't it? You know, Isaiah 58 tells you, "Your healing comes when you go, so when you go out of your suffering, out of your pain, out of your disappointment, that's when your healing comes." And I don't say that lightly because I know for anyone listening who's got severe struggles going on, you know, you'll be thinking, "I've got nothing left in the tank, how can I possibly go and minister out of that?" You can because that's what God tells us to do. And as we go, our healing comes and God's power comes. And you're equipped through that weakness as well, you know, you've been interested with that particular scenario, which actually gives you the unique gift of empathy to offer to others in that. And vulnerability is powerful, isn't it? To wrap up, then Esther, say, "First of all, a massive thank you for coming and sharing your stories with us. It's been really inspiring to hear you." And I do feel like I'd love to go with Mojo. Come on, I really would. Can I ask you to pray for us by wrapping up? Holy Spirit, thank you that you are present. Thank you that you've been present in this lovely life-giving conversation with Catherine. Thank you that your Holy Spirit is present to who ever's listening right now, whether you're listening in your car or going off to sleep or out on a lovely walk or having a cup of coffee, the Spirit of the Lord God is present with you now. And I just say, let's open ourselves up to what the Holy Spirit is doing in you. What has it done in you through this conversation? You know, just take anything that has been fluff and padding away and just bring the message that you want to bring to this person listening right now. Knowing that the Holy Spirit is in you and is with you and is ready to show you how Jesus wants to work in your life today. Whoever you're going to meet today, whether it's a family member or a stranger on the street or a colleague, he has the word of life for you and for the people that you're going to meet today. So, Holy Spirit, help us to open our third ear, our spirit ear so that we can hear how you want to use us today to bring those kingdom encounters where the door between heaven and earth opens up and your presence is felt and your work is done. Thank you that you've equipped each one of us with everything we need to live the life that you're calling us to live and help us to go and do that. Hand in hand with you only through your Spirit and only in your name Jesus for the glory of our Father God. Amen. Amen. Thank you so much for listening in to Carri Shales today with me, your host Catherine Grimes and our beautiful guest and a big thank you to all the women who make Carri Shales podcast possible for your generous support, you know who you are and we are eternally grateful. A big thank you goes out to David Campion of Open Sky Media for editing and producing this episode and this is where you come in. If you have enjoyed listening to this episode, please help us by growing the Carri Shales community of women of faith. You can leave a review or a rating, pass the stories on and look for the stories in your own life as well. Thank you and look forward to talking with you next time. you