First Strides in Law: Mastering Firm Applications with Sophie Ward

[Music] Hello and welcome to that very bad law podcast where we talk about all things law and life here in Ireland. I'm your host Sophie and in this series we're going to be looking at what it's like to qualify and practice as a solicitor. Each week we're going to dive into a new topic exploring everything from applying to law school to landing your dream job and navigating the intricacies of legal practice. Whether you're a law student, a seasoned practitioner, or simply curious about the legal world, this podcast is your go-to resource for candid conversations, practical advice and a few laughs along the way. [Music] Welcome back to that very bad law podcast and I am so thrilled to have you join me again for another insightful episode. Last week we delved into the world of Lord Grease and what to expect while studying. Building on that foundation, today's episode is all about internship and training contract applications, arguably the most crucial step for aspiring solicitors. Whether you're a law student thinking of applying whilst navigating your way through college or someone changing career paths like I did, this episode is packed with valuable tips on crafting a standout legal CV, writing compelling cover letters and asing those nerve-wracking interviews. So if you're ready to take your next step in your legal career journey, you're in the right place. Joining me on today's episode is Sophie Ward and our Sophie is the early careers lead for Mason Hayes and Curran, which many of you know is a leading Irish firm based in Dublin. Along with Mason Hayes and Curran's graduate committee, she runs the student placement, intern and trainee programs for the firm, as well as learning and development programs for solicitors and NQs. So there is literally not a better person to give you advice on the topic. Let's dive straight in and hear what great tips and advice Sophie has for us. So my name is also Sophie. I am the early careers lead for Mason Hayes and Curran, so I work with our graduate committee, which is made up of partners and myself and we run the student placement program, the intern program and the trainee program. And then I also work with our learning and development team with our kind of associate development program once people qualify as solicitors. Fantastic. Absolutely brilliant. The exact person I need to do this interview with because one of the questions I get asked all the time is about CVs, cover letters, questions, how to tailor things to specific firms, all of that kind of thing. So let's start from the very beginning. At Mason Hayes and Curran, I know you do things a little bit differently, so do you want to talk about maybe just when you open applications kind of how the whole process works here and we'll just start with that. Sure, sure. So at MHC, your right, so we only recruit our trainees via our internship. So we don't do like a separate trainee recruitment process, it's all via the internship. And the reason that we do that is your internship or your traineeship is, you know, it's a very important part of your life. It's a two and a half, three year commitment and then ideally it's longer because you want to stay as an early qualified. So you want to make sure that where your training is the right place for you and we want to make sure that you're the right fit for us as well. So we find the internship is just a great way for both sides to make sure that it's three weeks. So in terms of dates, we typically open our internship applications in early September. It's very straightforward. It's just to see being a cover later in an application form. And then we close them usually six weeks later around mid-October. Interviews typically take place in month after that, so mid-November and we enter everyone know the outcome a week or two after that. So you should know whether you've gotten an internship by the end of the year. And then the internship itself takes place the following June or July. As I said, it's three weeks, so you work with us for three weeks in June or July. You work within a team. You're usually paired with like a mentor, he's a partner, a senior associate, and like a buddy who's a trainer, maybe a nudie qualified associate as well. And it's a really good chance for you to kind of find out what it's like to work in Mason, Hazen, Curran, what it would be like to train here. And just to see if you know if it's the right fit on both sides. So it's really enjoyable. We love having the internship in the office. There's such a good buzzer in the place here. I can attest it. It's a great fun. It's really good fun. That's brilliant. So I think from that it's really clear like, you know, you're drawing your trainees from the internship. So your CV and cover letter for the internship is the equivalent of any kind of training application or any kind of internship application at any firm, I would say corporate or otherwise. They all have the same thing. So let's go through them one by one to begin with if that's okay with you. So let's start with that CV. Now a lot of people get all panicked about whether or not they should write in long form or short form, but let's go to the very, very, very beginning. Let's talk about academics. Do we include academics on our CV? And if so, what is it that you're looking for when people do you want individual modules? Do you want great grade stages? What is it that you're looking for? Yes, so absolutely. You do include academics. They are important. They're considered as part of your application, but they're not the BLN and L. So I do get a lot of questions about, you know, oh, maybe my first year result is as good as I thought it would be or my leaving start results aren't really reflective of who or how I can do academically. And that's something that's absolutely taken into account, I think, across the firms. You know, some people flourish really well in that structured leaving search environment where you've got your teachers kind of following up with you. I know I did. And then when you get into college it's so different and it's such a culture shock and I don't think students are prepared for it often. I don't think they kind of get the preparation, you know, as part of second-use builder, anything like that. So it can be a real change to go from having that structure then to being autonomous and having a lot of independence and kind of being responsible for your own deadlines and all that. And people can really struggle in their first year. So that's something that's absolutely understood. And you know, the reverse is also true. Some people struggle a bit with the leaving search with, you know, the structured environment. Sometimes it can be difficult. It can be a difficult time of life as well. You're a teenager, there's a lot going on. And then when they get to college that, you know, that autonomy and that independence really sees them and they can flourish. So that's absolutely kept in mind as well when people are looking at academics. So it's the first thing I wanted to say if you are concerned about your academics, please do go ahead and apply. Even if you don't get through that year, you might get through the next year or the year after and it's all really good practice. In terms of what to include, and some firms will have kind of different requirements. So someone asks for your transcripts, someone just asks for your overall grade. I'd say if it's not clearly laid out, make sure that you include your overall grade today and your, you know, your leaving search or equivalent points, most firms will look for that. I think all firms really. I would say if there are, there's no need to include like all your grades or all your modules, but if there are modules that you're particularly proud of, maybe where you did really well, or maybe, you know, like a project you were involved in, or a MOOC course or something like that, that can be really good to include as well into your education just to kind of round it out. And yeah, I would say, I would say that's kind of the high level. And then, you know, if you want to include, if you want to go a bit deeper, I'd suggest kind of maybe attaching it separately. There's no need to kind of fill out your CV just entirely with your academics, and include them, but it shouldn't be your full CV. Yeah, I think, you know, individual module grades, if they've been specifically asked for, are, you know, that's what you need to do. But otherwise, you know, you're taking up a lot of real estate on that CV, just listing out, oh, I got 63 in this and I got 70 in this or I got 50 something in this. Yes, yes. So absolutely, hey, you're on that one. And just to clarify there, then the leaving set result, that is something that you would include in a CV, if you're applying for an internship or a training ship, most likely because you don't have a lot of work experience, or perhaps you're still kind of in college. And so you maybe don't have your full degree grade yet. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Most firms would ask for it either as part of the application form or that it being included on your CV, and it is just to give an indication of your academic abilities, but as I said, it's not the beyond end of. Okay, so next up, work experience. I'm assuming that's going to take up the bulk of our CV. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk through maybe to begin with what kind of things you would include on your work experience, you know, part-time jobs, volunteering, that sort of thing. Yeah. And then maybe break down how you would present that. Sure. So in terms of what to include, the first thing I'd say is most experience is relevant. So sometimes people get caught up in the fact that they don't have any legal experience yet. At the stage in your career, you're not expected to have legal experience. If you do, that's great, but most people don't, and that's absolutely fine. That's the reason you're kind of looking for an internship, you're looking to gain that experience. So don't worry too much about that. I would say the skills that you pick up in your part-time jobs, and I know this is so true for me and for most people, teamwork, prioritization, especially if you're managing, you know, a full-time college degree and a part-time job working with members of the public, keeping your head in stressful situations, all that sort of thing. It's so, so helpful for when you get a builder. And I would say as well, even just the ability to manage a college degree and a part-time job, when I finished my degree and you know, I finished my part-time job and I went into full-time employment, I was like, this is fantastic. Monday to Friday, 9 to 530, this is the life. You can really kind of help with your time management and your prioritization, that sort of thing. So that's the first thing I'd say is do include it. You know, retail, hospitality, admin, whatever it might be. In terms of what to include from each job, what I usually recommend here is take a look at the advertisement for the job that you're applying to. So it could be a student placement or an internship or a training ship. Most firms will lay out the skills that they're looking for from applicants and work backwards from that. So if a firm is looking for really good attention to detail, have a think about your part-time jobs and where you learn that skill and include that as, you know, as an example. If a firm is looking for good prioritization, if you can think back to, maybe a really busy time and a part-time job that you've had or when you had a lot of different demands on your time via volunteering and college and all that sort of thing, include that your CV. So just make sure that your CV reflects the role that you're applying for and what the firm is looking for. And even if the firm doesn't kind of explicitly list it out, I'd say just Google, you know, what skills does a trainee need, what skills does an intern need, Google's great. Yeah. Or if you are going to a law firm, absolutely go up and introduce yourself and ask those sort of questions because hearing it from the trainees themselves is really, really helpful to you. Yeah, I often get CVs sent in kind of, oh, can you look at this please and all they've done is kind of bullet point jobs that they have to do all tasks that they have to do. So here you're kind of telling me to explicitly call out the skills that you learned. Is that right? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I definitely see a lot of people where they're two steps to three where they're going, oh, I did this. And I did this really well, blah, blah, blah. But they're just not quite putting the actual words down on paper where they're saying this was great teamwork or this was a great example of, you know, critical thinking or whatever it might be. Exactly. Yeah. And when you think about it, you know, the reviewers are looking at potentially hundreds of CVs, so you have to make it easy for them to wait for a word and you know, they can find what they're looking for. So, spell it out. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that sometimes it feels really silly to put all that information down because you're like, God, surely they can read this and see if you're looking at 100 CVs in an hour or whatever it might be, you're just kind of going right buzzword, buzzword. I'm seeing this. And then that will give you pause probably to go back and go, oh, actually, okay, that is interesting. Yes. Yeah. Definitely. And so in a CV, how long would a typical CV be? And as a result, kind of how many different work experiences would you put down on that CV? So typically, I'd say that the typical CV would be one to two pages, no more than two pages, especially at the, you know, the earlier stage of your career. In terms of how many roles to put down, I'd say probably no more than four or five. You know, you don't want to kind of overwhelm your viewers as well. So if you've, you know, if you've had a few different part-time jobs and you've maybe gone abroad in summers and worked in different areas and that sort of thing, I'd say have a think back and think about the roles that you think are most applicable to what you're applying for and make sure those are highlighted. If you're trying to avoid gaps in your CV or something like that, you can always put a bit of a button that's like, you know, additional experience and just have the titles and the dates. But again, I wouldn't say that's that important at this stage in your career because most people aren't working full-time and they're studying and there are going to be gaps. Yeah. No, absolutely. And that really helps answer another question which I get, which is how on earth do you tailor a CV to a firm? Because often it's very easy with cover letters. You know, you're writing a descriptive piece whereas a CV, a lot of people think it's just facts, boom, boom, boom. But like you've just said there, you know, if you've got more than five pieces of work experience, like which one is the most relevant, where did you pick up skills that you're finding on that firm's website? Yeah. And kind of, I always think as well, a good handy tool for that is LinkedIn. Going on LinkedIn and seeing, you know, you can now see who's got skills attributed to them and what skills they might be, the partners, that sort of thing. Once you've got that work experience written, what comes next? So in terms of the layout, it's really up to the individual. The kind of, I suppose the most common one I'd see and this might just be what's, you know, what people are used to seeing. It doesn't mean everyone has to do the same as usually education's first. And it's usually just, you know, a couple of lines you've maybe leaving cert and your undergrad or your postgrad if that's where you're at. And then next would be work experience usually. Following that, extra curriculars would be very common. So that can include things like volunteering, societies, you might be involved in sports, you know, that you might be involved in on a part-time basis. And all that kind of thing that really helps to brand out your application and show a bit more about you as a person. And then what I'd usually recommend after that is maybe a small achievement section. So this is just, it's actually quite nice to do. You sit back and have a think about, you know, what really stands out to me over the last few years that I'm particularly proud of. And it doesn't have to be only academics. You know, if you wanted to include a really good grade that you got or a prize that you wanted something absolutely that's the place for it. But it can also be an experience that you've had. And, you know, it could be some volunteering that you've done that you were recognised for. You know, if you were maybe elected a member of a committee or if you were, you know, a prefected school or something like that. It's just a nice place to list four or five things that you're particularly proud of. And so again, if your viewer is looking at your CV, they can kind of spot that quite quickly as well. And so I always think that's quite a nice little thing to include. And also at the end of it, you can sit back and be like, wow, look at me. Yeah, no, I think that's so good. I've actually never thought to put a separate achievements behind me. Maybe like, or if I had a specific academic achievement, I'd just put it in with my academics. But that's actually a really lovely way to kind of take a pause, like you say, reflect yourself a little bit on what you've done. Because I think sometimes it's so easy to compare yourself to so many other people. And you think, you're behind or you're not doing as well as everyone else. But actually, you know, the majority of people are doing so much. And they are achieving a lot. And I think that's a really nice way to kind of finish off a CV, especially for you writing it. That's really nice. Yes. I know I couldn't agree more. And I think, you know, you're so right. It is so easy to look around and be like, oh my god, everyone's just knocking at the park. And I'm, you know, I feel a bit behind or whatever. But, you know, I do have to say, and I know I said this to you earlier, like the applications that we get in the quality is just incredible. Like, you know, everyone is putting in so much work and they're really, really great. And I think it can be easy to kind of get lost in that. And sometimes it's just really nice to take a step back and look at what you've done and put yourself in the back and say, well done me. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so important, especially, you know, a lot of people when they go through applications, you know, they might get a few rejections or they might kind of get that experience for the first time because perhaps it's the first time they've applied to a job or perhaps it's just something that, you know, is new to them. And I think that can be really difficult and that can be really hard to take, especially if you have been a high achiever or you're someone who has got, you know, a part-time role that you've applied for in the past. So definitely, you know, not being perturbed by that and still seeing what you've done as really great, I think is so lovely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think, you know, rejections are, you know, just part of life as you go through life. You know, every so often, you'll go for something and you won't get it. But the important thing is just not letting it knock you back too far and, you know, keep in going and people sometimes apply two, three, four times before they get what they want. But things do work in the end. So yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love that. All right. That's the CV ticked off done. Let's move on to the cover letter because even though a lot of other firms perhaps wouldn't ask specifically for a cover letter, a lot of what they do ask, you know, why this firm, why corporate law or why criminal law or whatever it might be, is what you would include in a cover letter. So let's break it down. What are we starting with as our cover letter? Okay. So with the cover letter, the first thing I would always recommend is absolutely tailor it to the firm you're applying to. Don't have, you know, a kind of fill in the blanks cover letter and taking the time to release sit back and have a proper think about why you want to work in law, why this firm is attractive to you, why you might want to train there, is so important and it can really, really help an application stand out. And I think I totally understand when you're applying, you know, you're applying for, you know, 10, 20 internships, 20 ship student placements, it can get overwhelming and it's so tempting to just have a base that you can work off. But, you know, if you think about it from the other perspective, reviewers might be looking at a hundred CVs. So putting in that extra bit of work can really help get yours over the line. I'm sorry, cover letters as well. In terms of what to include, I suppose where to start, an Alinj Doctorate paragraph is nice. So just a bit about yourself, you don't need to go into too much detail. That's what the CV is for. Why you want to study law or why you study law is always a good hook, you know, it shows a bit about your motivation and your interest in the area, why you want to train or why you're interested in the particular firm. In terms of that, I'd always recommend have a good look around the firm's website. If you're interested in things like, you know, CSR or a Green Committee or, you know, diversity, that kind of thing, a lot of that is on the firm's website. So it's a good way to kind of get an idea of the culture. And again, if you're interested in a particular area of law, like commercial, real estate financial services, have a good read of their pages and their department, you know, information that's publicly available on their website. I'd also say, keep an eye on the news and that's just, you know, the news that's out there, you can Google news or the news that the firm's might put out there themselves. And if there's anything that really grabs your eye that you think, oh, that's so interesting, you know, that could be a good thing to include in your cover letter. And again, just to show that you've done your research. So why law, why you want to train it or why you're interested in, you know, pursuing a career at that particular firm. And then I think something that's always nice to include in a cover letter is a bit about yourself towards the end. So it could be, you know, an experience that you've had that's a little unusual, a hobby that you have that's a little different. And, you know, it could be really anything that you want to get across, but it's just a really nice way for the reviewers to be able to get a sense of you as a person outside of, you know, a cover letter. And before you get to interview stage, so something like that to round it off is always nice. And then the last thing I would say is proofread and get someone else to prove it. Yes. Oh, you know, yourself, when you're looking at the same document for Ayra's, or even, you know, for me sometimes if I'm going to send an email to, you know, it's an important email and I'll proofread it and I'll proofread it and I'll be like, "Yeah, perfect." And then I'll hit send and immediately you're like, "Oh no!" Oh yeah, and you're like, "Can I retract it?" "Can I retract it?" And I spell my name wrong. So having someone else just take a look at it is very, very helpful as well. that's my last tip is just get someone else to throw an eye over it. Yeah, that's so great. I remember someone once saying that like your CV is the facts about you and your cover letter is telling the story of the sum of those facts so it's kind of explaining, you know, like he was saying before maybe you didn't do great on the leaving sir but maybe you described that as you know once I found myself in college I was able to really flourish and blow out a team all of these great things so it's kind of just giving that descriptive background of yourself towards the firm. I love that. I think that's so nice and that's such a simple, I think people over complicate cover letters because oftentimes when you apply for a part-time job you only need a CV you might not need to do a cover letter. Yeah and it might be a bit daunting for some people but just breaking it down into those kind of three separate blocks is a really nice way to approach it I think. Yeah and just very quickly are we going for the traditional address at the top, "Dear Sir Maam, what is it that we're looking for in terms of the actual layout of this cover letter?" Oh, interesting. I don't know. I suppose I can't speak for all firms. I don't think we'd be too fussy about that sort of thing so if you want to do the traditional layout absolutely go ahead and most applications are online now so you know you're not sending in a letter so if you want to leave the address out and give yourself a bit more space again go ahead. I would say it's important if you are addressing it to someone to address it to the right person and so you know take your time to do your research and find it maybe who's on the graduate committee or who's the partner who's leading the kind of graduate committee that sort of thing and that can just show that you've put in a little bit of extra work but no I don't think there'd be too much fuss about that. Yeah, it's quite old school isn't it? Yeah, now I can't speak for all firms but that's my sense. Yeah, no that's fantastic. Okay so we've got through the application stage. Yeah, happy days. We've made it to interview and this is where I think the next big scary thing obviously takes place. Yeah, you've got to go into the firm, you've got to talk to a partner or someone from HR and you've got to sell yourself in somewhere or another. So let's go through just some of maybe let's just go with five of your top tips for interviewing. I mean it doesn't have to be five if you do as many as you want. I'm not going to count. Three hours later. But let's just work through you know what are those things you get asked time and time again? What do you look for when a candidate comes in and how can they best prepare for an interview? Yeah absolutely. Okay so I suppose my number one tip for interview is prepare. So put in a few hours of work, really research the firm, you know research. If you know the partners that you're meeting do a bit of research on their practice area. If not just have a good idea of you know the firm overall they're kind of top practice areas. If they've been in the news lately, you know any big deals that they've done lately or anything along those lines that Stan Zeich be able to talk about them. I would say as well do a bit of research into the firm's culture. And so again you can do that through having a look on their website. Most firms will have like you know a bagel sort of page they might have a page on CSR and that sort of thing a great place to find out about that as well as Instagram. A lot of firms will kind of update their Instagrams with more internal employee events that they might have done so it's a great way to take a look and see what it's like to actually work there. I would say as well so that's the preparation I'd recommend and also commercial awareness is something that does tend to be asked of age so keep an eye on the news coming up to the interview in a few weeks beforehand any big legislative changes or anything that you've noticed from kind of a business perspective. You know law firms are a business so it's important that you have an interest in business and that you're keeping an eye on these things and be able to talk about them. So I'd say preparation is just so so important. I think as well knowing your CV and your cover letter inside of night. As you said your past the application process you're coming into the interview and sometimes the CV and cover letter can seem way behind you you know it's in the distance I've done with that but you know if you're being interviewed by a partner or someone from HR they're looking at your CV and it might just be the second or third time they've seen it type of thing so they are probably going to run through it and ask you a few questions from it so it's very important to be able to talk about anything that's on your CV or in your cover letter and that you're confident speaking about it as well. So don't write oh I have this real passionate interest in this regulation that came out in your cover letter and then when they ask you about what? Yeah avoid that if you absolutely. So I think as well you know you've done your preparation you know your CV inside of the night and your cover letter well you know about the firm all that sort of thing and no and be able to articulate why you would like to train or intern or have a student placement in that firm and so what it is about that particular firm that drew you that kind of you know sparked your interest and it doesn't have to be at the exclusive you know no other firms have interested me at all but it's only you but you know why what it is about that firm that kind of drew you in and just be able to show again that you've done your research in that area and and I suppose the last thing I'd say is keep in mind that your interviewers are fully aware that this is nerve-wracking for most people for a lot of people it might be it's not a familiar environment coming into a big corporate office they might not have been in office like that before or if they have maybe just once or twice it's intimidating meeting you know partners or people from the firm and it's totally okay to be nervous yeah that is something that the interview is absolutely you know they've been in your shoes they totally understand and so I would say keep that in mind they want you to do well and take a deep breath before you go in my denomances three deep breaths but I eat just one yeah just one just one more day yeah it's all I've got time for anyway I'm just gonna go in now yeah exactly um and just yeah just just keep that in mind it's okay to be nervous you know it shows that you care about the role so it's it's not going to preclude you or anything like that yeah and I think you've just said something that really important which is the interviewer wants you to succeed yeah you've made it this far you've got through the CV and cover letter they've already decided you know your grades are good enough we're interested in the work experience you've done before we're interested in knowing you as a person yep and one thing I always say to people is you know let your personality shine through yes don't just be what you think they want because law firms are looking for a diverse range of people right 100% be yourself and I think we did a few interviews with our own interns for um for like social media and our website and stuff a few years ago and that was the one thing that they all said about the interview experience was to be yourself and 100% and you know that's that's all you can do and I think it's absolutely the best way to to go forward and just just be yourself yeah yeah that's brilliant oh I love I'm getting like goose bumps if this is just so wonderful I mean it's not it's a terrifying experience but no it can't be done exactly and once you turn you can leave go get yourself a coffee chill out for a second yeah and then obviously you'll find out probably I'd say within a week or two yeah obviously you've got a very specific vibe in the firm that's kind of who you are and what the firm is but what is it that you generally would look for when you look at applicants coming into your firm yeah um so I think you're kind of taking a look at what makes a good trainee and when you're looking at internship applications so you're not you know we're recruiting for our internship and you know most terms of your accruation for the internship but with a view to a longer term relationship there and so I think and that you know I I suppose I would always recommend speaking to trainees about this because they really know what skills they have that have helped them in their career and but definitely you know being a good team player being able to work as part of a team being able to develop good relationships with your colleagues that's really really important and you know law firms made up of teams and departments and you know people working well together that's what makes a firm successful and so having those skills is great and and I would say as well from kind of a practical perspective good attention to detail and so again that's why I'd always always recommend proofreading getting your hands free of free I'm good attention to detail when I've got five spelling shifts give this paragraph you're like yeah yeah exactly so you know it's something small but it is something that's very important for a legal professional as that's good and strong attention to detail and I would say evidence of you know a good work ethic and someone who's happy to get stuck in so again that can be part-time jobs and could be volunteering anything like that the show so you're kind of happy to maybe do something that's you know I suppose if you're thinking about a traineeship you're reheating and at a different departments you're meeting new people all the time you're you know you're in one department you're settled in you're happy and told you know everyone and all of a sudden you're in a new department so you have to be able to kind of manage change and deal with things through you know maybe a little different from time to time absolutely and so yeah I'd say those three things are important and you know the above you've obviously got your kind of practical ones the your research and all that sort of thing but again you get a lot of training on that once you're actually in your traineeship and most firms will have a good library department and a good knowledge department that can help trainees to learn how to do legal research really well and really efficiently so yeah yeah that's so good it as well like what you've just said there you know you're talking these kind of broad skills that you can pick up you're not it's not one specific type of person which I think is really important like obviously the legal profession is becoming far more diverse and that it will say 30 years ago and as a result like there's no one way to be a good trainee but like you say there are certain skills which will just be a little bit more beneficial yeah absolutely and you know what their skills that are helpful in any job for you in any role and so I think you know good from a trainee perspective but also whatever you decide to pursue those kind of skills will come in handy wherever and absolutely you're so right about internships and traineeships and early careers in general becoming more diverse. You know, it's reflecting Irish society as it should. So it's really, really great to see. [MUSIC] When applying for an internship or training contract, obviously you are applying through CBN cover letter or an application form. But we've kind of touched on LinkedIn and reaching out to trainees. How important is your network as someone in your early career starting out? It is important. I would say, you know, the earlier you start developing those networking skills, the better, because they are important as you grow in your career. Your network becomes, you know, when you're solicitor, senior associate, a partner, your network is very important. But even in your earlier career, having that network of people, that kind of peer network to bounce things off and, you know, chat about your career development and all that sort of thing. Like, I know myself with my friends from my undergrad, we're all still in touch and if one of us has an interview coming up or something, what kind of help you to the right. So having that network is great, even just from a personal perspective, but also from a business perspective. I would say in your early careers, you know, your network, a lot of the firms now would have very kind of structured streamlined application processes. So things now are viewed very much on merit and that's both to help with the volume of applications and also, as of first, you know, things, things should be viewed on merit. So having a strong network maybe won't necessarily help you hand an interview or anything like that, but where it will come in handy is having a good understanding of, you know, culture and different firms and also having a good understanding of what life is actually like as a lawyer. So, you know, if you happen to know a lawyer in your life or, you know, if you go to a law fair and you meet up with, you know, a trainee and you want to connect on a dinner, something like that and maybe go for a coffee, building that sort of network and those mentorship opportunities is really important just in terms of your own growth and developing the skills that you need as a legal professional going forward. So absolutely, I'd say the earlier you can start the better and it doesn't have to be, I think people sometimes think of networking as, you know, going to big events and like shaking people's hands and it's all very slow and all that sort of stuff, but it can be going to law fairs, getting involved in societies, it doesn't even have to be a legal society, you know, just kind of learning those skills and learning how to interact with a lot of different people and take good longer relationships is very, very helpful. Yeah, absolutely and I think, you know, we wouldn't be here now if I hadn't kept in contact with you after the internship, but I think like you say, you know, it doesn't necessarily secure you the interview or get you in the door in that way, but you know, that longer-term partnership is so important, but it's a skill that you develop like any other skill. It's not something everyone is just naturally able to do or is born to do. And I know for some people, you know, socialising can be very out of their comfort zone. Yeah. So, you know, like you say, start small, you can just go to law fairs, maybe introduce yourself to one person or another. Do you often use LinkedIn when you're looking at CVs and internships for your internships? LinkedIn for early higher recruitment, I wouldn't say so much. I would usually kind of, you know, connect with our interns and our trainees and we'd have an active network in that way, but usually when people are applying for an internship with us, I would just base it on their application. So I wouldn't kind of take a look at their LinkedIn. But that being said, I think LinkedIn is, it's incredible. I mean, they just bring out something new every week and marketing team. I swear that they'd have their own LinkedIn team just to kind of keep up with it. But it's such a powerful tool and it's so helpful for an applicant. If you want to find out a bit more about a firm, a lot of firms are very active on LinkedIn. I know we have like a LinkedIn news, that goes out every week that anyone can sign up for and I'm sure other firms might have something similar as well. And you know, it's a great way to kind of connect with people as well. If you're thinking about, if you're looking at a few firms and you're not sure, maybe which ones you want to apply for, you can always send a connection request to a trainee and ask if you can grab a coffee and that's where you think so. It's a really, really helpful way to build your network when you're starting off. Yeah, brilliant. I do get a lot of fear. Like, oh, I haven't been posting on LinkedIn very much. You think that's going to affect my application. So I just wanted to get that out of, you know, you're not expected to have a full blown LinkedIn updating every day and everything you're doing. So we're really just focusing on that CV and cover letter whilst you're applying for those internships. We've spoken through a lot of the CV and cover letter and the experience that you're going to have. One question I do get asked a lot is, if you want exams, do you look for people who have started them? Do you care if people have started them or not? Are you interested in them having done one or two or is that something that can come after the internship? And do you have any rules around, you know, sittings or rules around, you know, which ones they can take when? Yeah. So from an FU1 perspective, and this would vary quite a bit from firm to firm. So if we're just recruiting for a summer internship with a view to securing trainees going forward, I would say FU1s aren't, you know, we're not looking for people who've completed the FU1s or started the FU1s or anything like that. Wherever you are in your journey is fine. If you haven't started yet, if you've done them all, that's all fine. Some firms would recruit specifically for years. So they might, you know, when a recruitment drive for say, 2025 trainees, and in that case, they might ask that you have a certain number of completed by the time you apply. And that's just to make sure that, you know, you're not trying to do eight in one setting. And, you know, if I've heard of it, I wouldn't recommend it. I wouldn't recommend it. So I would say it is very specific to what you're applying for. And I suppose it's just something to kind of keep in mind when you are looking at applying. You know, if you're, say it's 2024, and you'd like to start your traineeship in 2026, starting to think about your FU1s now. We always recommend people take at least 18 months to do them. And, you know, if you want to try and do them in two settings, absolutely go ahead, but give yourself some breathing room for the last thing you want to do is commit to a traineeship that starts in 2025 and put yourself under a huge amount of pressure if you don't need to. So I would say just kind of have a good think about it and decide when you want to start your traineeship and factor in at least 18 months to see your FU1s. And that kind of brings on that point where it's quite normal, you know, after you finish college to take a year or a year and a half to do the FU1s, maybe do travelling, all of that kind of thing, before you come into the firm, you know, I think I see a lot of people going, you know, I'm 2324 and I don't have a training contract starting the moment I graduate. I'm just there going, "Why am I 27?" And I'm like, "Oh my goodness." But then, you know, the average agent black hole is 30, like it's up there. It's not, you know, young 20-year-olds running around doing amazing. So I think, you know, what you've just said there about, take your time, take that 18 months, but just be aware, you know, if you are starting in 2026, perhaps if you're doing a pre-seat that might cut out that much prior because you might not get results or that might just be, you know, if something goes wrong, yes, something comes up, you need to use that. It's something to have a conversation with your firm about, is that right? Yes, absolutely. And if you're kind of coming into, say, the year before, you've 12 months to go before you're supposed to start and you're not where you thought you'd be, the more notice you can give your firm the better. So, you know, give someone an HR call, someone an audit career as a call, just explain where you're at and see if anything can be done around, you know, maybe moving your training contract around a little bit. And a lot of firms would be quite strict around the start dates just because they have to manage them year to year. But as I said, the more notice you can give the better and people do understand as well that things happen, sometimes that are out of people's control. So, yeah. Yeah. So, I think we've kind of spoken through most of that kind of journey and that early application. I don't think there's any other questions that I specifically had to ask you. So maybe we could just finish up with some last bits of advice or just something, you know, you wish you could tell people when they were applying. Yeah. Yeah, just that nice little finish off. Yeah. Absolutely. So, there's two things that I'd like to say. The first is, you know, if you're worried about applying or you think for whatever reason, something about you isn't good enough, go ahead and apply. You know, there may be one area where you think you could improve, but there's no date in other areas you're absolutely excelling and no one's perfect across the board. So go ahead and apply and even if you don't get through in the first round, apply the next year and keep applying because, you know, the more practice you get, the better. Absolutely. And I suppose the other thing I'd say is, you know, in your early career stage, there's a lot of focus on securing the internships, securing the traineeship, you know, your career. And I totally understand that, but I think as well it's important to really enjoy it. You know, do a few internships if you can meet people really, you know, have a good time. It's such an exciting time in your career. You know, it starts and you have it all in front of you. So I think absolutely be focused 100% but also make sure that you take the time to really enjoy what you're doing and just have fun as well. And so concludes episode two and I want to express my sincere gratitude to Sophie Ward for her invaluable insights. Crafting a strong CV, writing a compelling cover letter and acing an interview are essential skills for anyone pursuing a legal career. Remember refining these skills is an ongoing process that evolves throughout your professional journey. On our next episode, we delve into the world of everyone ex-exploring their history, structure and everything you need to know to prepare effectively to pass. And I look forward to welcoming you back then. Thank you for tuning in and until next time, take care.