First He Loved Bombed Me And Then It Was Over

hey Esther so in the last couple years I had a relationship that was basically an emotional roller coaster of like the best of everything at the beginning and then kind of really just turned into absolutely nothing and now six eight months after stopping contact with this person completely I feel destroyed from it and that I'm like worthless and incredibly replaceable and I know other women have had the same exact experience with this person but also I really truly felt so much hope at the beginning of my relationship with him and I thought that I was different I was special and he really did make me feel that way and I'm not the kind of person who just goes into any relationships or likes that many people it's really pretty hard for me to and I'm 44 now and I started this relationship with him when I was 42 he's 10 years younger than me I was confident and happy at the time but also had given up on finding love and he offered so much and for a minute it felt really great and there was so much promise and then it really started to dissolve in this way and it also dissolves at the same time as my father was dying and he died and then everything really kind of came to a head of like just knowing this person is absolutely wrong for me and not the person I thought he was and it took another year for me to really end things with him three months later he's engaged to a new person and I don't know how to like bounce back and I don't know if I can trust anybody ever again and I want to because I want a partnership I want long-lasting love and that was the main reason I ended things with him because I knew it wasn't going to happen with him and I still want that but I don't know that I can trust anybody anymore fall is here and that means the pumpkin spice latte is back at starbucks it's the one we've been waiting for so whether you're a fan of the original pumpkin spice latte or ready to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai the new iced pumpkin cream matcha or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso you can find your favorite taste of fall only at starbucks fall is here and that means the pumpkin spice latte is back at starbucks it's the one we've been waiting for so whether you're a fan of the original pumpkin spice latte or ready to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai the new iced pumpkin cream matcha or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso you can find your favorite taste of fall only at starbucks wow and the question is I mean how how do I trust myself people the idea I don't know it's hard hmm it's hard to listen to it too yeah yeah yeah yeah it's hard to listen to the parts about feeling worthless you know so yeah and that it's hard to hear that it's so much about him still you know like I've lost myself in that you've lost yourself just that I lost myself in the entirety of that relationship and the idea of it and just let my own like interests and joys and who I am as a person just be very like bottom of the totem pole I understand the principle of what you're saying but I would love to understand the particular like what happens how did you guys meet and then I'll ask you a little bit about who was there before because your sense of trust can't just hinge on one man hmm so give me just a little bit of the story as you have lived it so I met him on a dating app and the context was that was you know about two years after a very long-term 10-year relationship that I had with somebody and I dated some other people since then I kind of just turned about 42 at the time and I was just sort of like well you know what I'm just gonna date on dating apps I'm gonna maybe just have fun with it I'm not gonna care I'm not gonna have expectations I mean not exactly true because I'm not capable of that but I just wanted to be more carefree with it so I opened up to dating younger men and he kind of popped up and then I went to meet him and he was a mutual friend so he knew people in our friend network and so I kind of trusted that a little bit and then at first I just thought it might be fun and he was attractive and he traveled a lot and I just thought a lot and there was a spontaneity to the way that we interacted you know he was very proactive and like very I mean now I guess what I see is a little bit love bombing but he was kind of measured with it at the beginning and it was very like it just felt it felt good it felt comfortable it felt like this kind of interaction I was looking for was a man that I didn't have to work extra hard to know where they how they felt about me he was kind of giving it to me and I was taking it I was like okay I like this I like the way I feel with this person and I knew he had had a lot of previous relationships and but I was trying not to like poo-poo on that and just be like okay maybe this person really does like me and does want to be with me and I kind of just like went with it and enjoyed it and we moved in really fast we just started like talking about not even marriage but kind of alluding to it and even talking about babies at like a very early stage in our relationship maybe like two months in and for me I was like this is scary territory because I'd kind of given up on having children my last relationship ended when I was 38 I was sort of just dating and I was now 42 I was like I don't know if that will happen in a biological sense but he made me kind of think or we together felt excited about that and it was all very fantasy and very beautiful and I just leaned right into it I felt really good about that for the first couple of months and then things kind of changed it shifted so at two months you move in and then right after that things begin to go down yeah maybe a few months after that so he moved in sort of like May and then June July I started to feel things just didn't feel the same and our the intimacy changed our sex life was very intimate very connected I was also like this is the first time I've had this kind of sexual relationship with somebody and then things just kind of shifted and I tried to talk to him about it I tried to just be like what's the deal and I was met with this intense kind of aggression like oh my last girlfriend just said that same thing and you just don't want me to fuck you anymore so that like just very mean language like that I wasn't used to and I was didn't know he was so prickly whenever I would want to talk about something it just felt like a dismissive aggressive and ultimately like why are you pushing this like stop trying to push this and it was like you're just being insecure you're just you know it's your problem yeah it's my problem and tell me something given that he was a mutual friend or that you had mutual friends and that you know he had that you were what you called a pattern of his and that you were a pattern of his and not nearly that special and chosen or you were chosen to enact the pattern one more time yeah did you did you ever meet or speak with anyone else who knew him uh that had dated him like been with him or just somebody who had did you know this kind of information um in a circle of friend is actually stuff that gets shared quite widely um it doesn't mean you hear it and you listen to it no of course and I may not have either I did I mean some of what he had happened he kind of told me about a little bit so one of my I think he's kind of good at keeping it from some of his friends but in the bigger network there was a lot of talk about and concern and actually somebody reached out to a friend of ours and told told her to tell me not to trust him but they never told me because it was right around the time that my dad died and so I was like I don't know if I'm going to everybody was worried about me and I'm trying to protect me I think but obviously like scared for me um because there's also other stories about physical abuse with past partners some of which he had told me about in the context of our relationship so I kind of felt like okay he's talking about it maybe there's some learning there or whatever um and is the death of your father a big loss yes okay yeah yeah so you've just had a big loss yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah in rapid in rapid succession two major losses yeah And I think that regardless of, like, the information I know about him and some of what I found out about my ex was much later after I was in, like, broke up with him. But one of the things I started to feel when my dad died, it was a real switch. Like, he was angry and aggressive towards me and felt like he didn't have alone time because we were living together. And it was the day after my dad died. And I just didn't understand who the person was I was with, you know. I was like, who are you? Like, you told me you wanted to take care of, we wanted to take care of each other. And here I am in the worst kind of thing in my life and you're complaining about alone time and shouting at me. And also he was physically abusive towards himself when I was still angry with him and I was still hurt by the way he was acting. He would physically, like, hurt himself and hate himself. By doing what? Like, hitting himself in the head and banging his head on the table and. Storming out. And then he would, five minutes later, send me pictures of us or a song or something very, like, emotionally manipulative. Did you use that word then or did that word need maturation till it came up? Definitely needed maturation. I think I understood what was happening a little bit at the time, but I really didn't see it fully. I just also, I know his history is really complicated. He had a lot of deaths in his family. He is from an abusive background. He has had a horrible life in a lot of ways. So I made a lot of excuses for him, I think, that made it hard for me to see what was happening as it was happening. You have a fairly clear understanding of what was going on and who you were with. And you know that it's not personal. I mean, I'm saying it in a simple way, but there's some relief sometimes in knowing it wasn't me. It just could be anybody and the story will be the same. But sometimes we so much want to feel special that we'd rather think it's me and totally undermine our sense of self-worth. But at least we are the protagonist of the story. Yeah. Other than the auxiliary. Yeah. I'm saying it with care because you try to understand him. You try to make excuses for him. You try to be empathic toward him. You try to explain his current behavior because of his past history as if it's a straight line. There are lots of people with hard lives who turn out to be caring and considerate and not nearly that selfish. Yeah. And not nearly completely. And not nearly completely unhinged the moment the other person isn't completely focused on them. Yeah. And the invitation that I have for you is to experience the grief and the loss that your life hasn't followed a certain trajectory as you had imagined, but without taking it on yourself. There is such an attempt to blame, you know, that we so think that we are in charge of this. You say, That was a bad choice. That was not a good relationship. That was somebody who completely seduced me and ensnared me. And I fell for it and I loved it. And I actually still want it. I mean, that felt really great. But I want it from someone for whom it's not just a kind of allure and then a hook. And the next time somebody wants to move in after two months and somebody is promising me the moon, I take it, I listen to it, but with a little bit of a healthy dose of skepticism, of a healthy dose of curiosity of let's see where this goes, of a healthy, you know, slow, slow, right? Yeah. We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes. We begin comes from Quince. Hate to break it to you, but now that it's August, that means summer is almost over. For some of you, that might be a relief. Autumn means cooler weather, which also means it might be time to find some cozy cold weather staples. Enter. Quince Quince specializes in effortless, high quality essentials like ultra soft, organic cotton and premium Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're beautifully tailored, built to last and transition seamlessly from morning meetings to a nice dinner out. 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So whether you're a fan of the original pumpkin, pumpkin spice latte or ready to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai, the new iced pumpkin cream matcha or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso, you can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. So where's the pattern in you? Where's the constant factor? Yeah, I was just talking to my therapist about it earlier about trying to understand like, you know, like who I am in in those relationships. And like, sometimes I wonder, am I also the person bringing a similar dynamic, but I just don't have the recognition of it. Like maybe a sort of I'm all about it. I want enmeshment. But then I withdraw at the minute that something feels hard or difficult or I don't know what to do with it. And like, I can't sit with it. And I is that a question mark or a description? I think it's both because I don't I don't know. Like, I think for such a long time, I thought, well, I'm not like that. I'm not afraid of like conversation and I'm not. But I think there was a dynamic that existed in my long term relationship where I think I was the one that was more like. Dismissive and angry and frustrated, and I was like, took a lot of things out on him. But I always thought that it was because he was just, you know, he was doing things. To bother me, but I didn't look at myself, you know, and so I I did see that dynamic a lot for and I tried to understand myself a lot and who I was towards him and why he might have felt the way he felt, you know, I'm still trying to understand that, to be honest. And I think maybe what I, you know, I did was then swing the other way because I like saw this other person is just somebody that wasn't afraid to like be with me and just. To say I'm fully committed, I'm doing all this stuff. And but then I just I didn't then bring my whole self there. I didn't kind of like acknowledge when things didn't feel right and express it or I did. And then once I met with something difficult, I stopped, you know, I started becoming smaller and less communicative and like in a way that I saw my ex was towards me, you know, and so I was. So you've been on both sides of the same dynamic. Yeah. And every time you say I am this way because of the other person, I'm this way because you. You can also say you are this way because I. Yeah. Yeah. Because relationships are a figure eight. Yeah. Yeah. The more I withdraw and the more you what? I think like the more I withdrew, but still wanted a lot at the same time. I don't know. How does it show up? How does it show up when you withdraw while you want a lot? I mean, you you you make it look like it's fine. It's fine. I don't need anything. But underneath, if if you went really granular about it, you know, relationships are lived in the. So I always imagine if I am a camera on the wall, what am I seeing here? How does this thing play out for you? You're describing a very entrenched dynamic with dad. You didn't mention mom at all. But with dad, you know, you're the daughter of the house. You're the fourth. You have a bit of a leeway that your brothers don't have. You want his attention. You want his affection. But in effect, you learn to. To become as removed as him. Yeah. So that if you don't get the attention or the affection, he won't even notice it. Because in fact, you're acting like him with the expectations of you. Yes. One would see if I look at you on the outside, what I see is someone who is removed and reserved and maybe even avoidant like him. If I do a scan. And I go on the inside, I see someone who's longing, who's yearning, who would love to know what she means to him, who would love to get close to him. But neither does she tell him and neither does he know. And part of her doesn't tell him because she doesn't think she would get it. Because she doesn't think he's capable of it. But she continues to hope for it. And so there is an inside and there is an outside. And there is an inside and there is an outside. And there is what she shows that is based on what she thinks that he can handle. Yeah. That's the figure eight. How does that resonate with you, what I just described? I mean, it sounds exactly right. I would say there's also like a way of putting like a smile on it too, of like being still, you know, like withdrawn, seeming kind of like disconnected and not available. But also like maybe passive aggressive towards the person, like not telling them how I feel or having to figure out the most elaborate scenario to make sure I kind of express it to them in a way that they can handle, that they can manage, that it's like I'm having to kind of control the scenario. And I think of moments like that with my ex. So you have to package it. I have to package it very, very carefully. You package it. And at the same time. At the same time, you resent having to package it. Yes. Yeah. So you're presenting it with a smile, but in fact, your teeth would like to bite. Yeah. Exactly. I feel very angry that I have to work so hard to bring a conversation to somebody in a way that isn't going to ruffle their feathers. But I don't know how else to do it because I try other ways. Or maybe I have it. I didn't try enough. But it's like I get to a boiling point. So it's like I withdraw. And sometimes I've done this in friendships, you know, where I feel maybe hurt by them or I don't know how to deal with what I feel. So I just kind of go into myself. And then I get more and more frustrated. And I can just spin my own wheels of like overthinking and feeling like, well, they don't care about me. This person doesn't really love me. This person doesn't really want to know me. And if I do. I want to tell them how I felt in my relationship with them I have to be very incredibly mindful of how I bring it to them but sometimes I just want to be really blunt and honest but I don't I worry that that's will you know fuck things up with people so I'm like I can't do that I've got to just like really think about it and really take my time and process which isn't terribly bad but it's sometimes I don't feel like it's always the most truthful right what would happen if you told them what you feel in a more unfiltered way are you afraid of your anger do you think they would leave they would prove to you that they really don't care probably and you have to constantly put everything into cosmetic but then you resent the fact that you have to so lose your authenticity in order to preserve your attachment that it's like they like you but who is it they like yeah they like a you that they don't know because you can't really tell them what you feel yeah exactly is there one person at this moment where you are in that very dynamic um yeah I mean I felt like it with my friends um sometimes I feel like I'm not going to feel like I can't always be myself I mean after all of this stuff happened I was very very very low and I had a lot of horrible thoughts and sometimes I felt like being honest about those scared people and made them retreat and I felt isolated so I do have a fear that if I'm really honest I'm either gonna like frustrate people or scare or scare people and I had a recent dynamic with um I don't know if it's quite the same but I this guy that I sort of started talking to and through friends was very full on I went and saw him and hung out with him and then it just sort of changed very quickly and and I had my reservations in the beginning of when I first started talking to him and some of my friends were like well you thought you knew that it was gonna or you had feelings that it wasn't gonna be great and I was like yeah but I don't want to be proved right you know like I have so much skepticism and fear going into situations but I also try to also remain super open and how did you interpret that when you say they proved me right basically they said you knew you heard them say you knew it so therefore why are you so disappointed you knew it what's the surprise yeah you knew it what's the surprise move on that's how I feel about it when it's said to me like that it's kind of like well you knew that now you know so let it go yeah and then you say oh you would like to say we can have two buckets apart the part of you that says what you actually say and the other one in that of what you wish well what I'd like to say is well no fuck that like there's a part of me that wants to like speak up and tell this person like hey why do you treat people like this that you date and like there's a part of me that is like the fighter but then there's also like the part of me that like listens to everyone else it's like oh don't you know don't give this person the energy they don't deserve it and so I'm like okay fine I'll just move on but there's this part of me that's like over here being like no like realize who you are in this world in this dynamic with other people and like what would you have wanted to bring to him I would have wanted to tell you like you know I don't understand what this dynamic was why you were so full-on in the beginning and I mean I don't know if you've heard of it but I would definitely be like you know you came to me with all this like affection and texting and discussion but then when I was in your your reality and I was there and I wanted to spend more time with you and I was honest about that you kind of retreated and became distant and that's confusing and I found that confusing to be around and I don't want that so good luck to you but I'm just telling you because that's how it felt to experience that and I don't want that you as a person and why do you need your friend's permission for that I don't but I just I mean it's like I don't need my their permission for it but I guess there's a societal thing of like you know there's like so much shitty dating culture and like men feel bashed by women I don't know lately which I think they deserve to be honest but like I don't know I guess I don't want to be seen also I hear my ex my recent ex I think he has a very terrible view of women and so I hear in my head how he's like oh she's gonna claim gaslighting and she's gonna like he would talk about other women um so there's this real like societal thing where it's like women are too sensitive women are too like you know they expect too much or um I don't know I think there's like something and I don't want to be lumped into that kind of like oh look here's this girl telling me how I should be as a man you know right and it is a deliberation there's a part of you that says I would love for you him to know how that felt on the other side there's a part of you that says I don't think he would get it why bother which is what your friends are kind of saying to you too yeah certain people are curious and eager to learn and to get feedback and some people won't just send it right back in your face and that's kind of what your friends are opting on is they're protecting you and they're basically saying you know don't put energy on this and a part of you says but it's unjust I want some sense of justice and then you make your deliberation it's like I can bring it to him but then you know if he wants to he can toss me to the category of angry women who are blaming men for all their woes but look at them and you know right if they were so great they wouldn't be there single at 42 right I mean we can really turn this into a real fist fight right yeah yeah another part of you may just say I really enjoyed meeting you and it was too bad that it took such a turn you know the piece is why are you saying this to him hoping for what if you need him to acknowledge something that's one way if you don't need him to acknowledge anything you just need to feel like you said something because it's you and your conscience then you say it but that's a different set of expectations yeah then you don't look for his understanding and acceptance of your experience as a way to to right the wrong right um and your friends when they say you knew it they're not really saying maybe some say you knew it therefore why are you making a big deal of this and some say you knew it and don't let this person take more away from you in a way if you put more energy there it they will it's more frustration and more hurt on you and honestly in this jungle of dating it's very difficult to know when what and which is the right response let alone from you to the man you date then for the women and the friends and the male friends it's very difficult to know when what and which is the right response let alone from you to the the damn friends all the friends that are around you and you're going to hear a range of responses and those responses are partly dictated by their own experiences partly by how they see you partly by what you're telling them that day and the tone in which you tell it to them and so you you get a a full spectrum here we are in the midst of our session there is still so much to talk about so stay with us on any journey using uber it helps to know you're getting into the right car pin verification adds an extra step to make sure your ride is your ride before the trip begins your app gives you a unique pin just tell it to your driver and they'll enter it in their app before the ride can start hey what's your pin two five three eight that way you know you're in the right car taking the right trip and your driver knows you're the right passenger make sure your ride is your ride with pin verification from uber one more way uber is putting safety at every turn learn more on the uber app right now when you buy more carpet at the home depot you save more during our buy more save more event going on now upgrade your carpeting with the top brands and save up to 15 off installed carpet projects installation starting at just 49 cents per square foot select from a wide assortment of carpet to fit your room lifestyle and budget during the buy more save more event at the home depot valid august 27th through september 13th 2026 base price for standard installations only excludes traffic master and stock carpet for licenses See homedepot.com slash license numbers. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling? Smart move. Another smart move? Getting help from one of State Farm's 19,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling, just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. But I'm still wondering, what would happen if you actually went, not to this guy, but to the friends, and you said, you know, when you say that, I know you mean really well, but at the same time, it did hurt me. Or I did, you know, I just find these openings very alluring, and then you just kind of suddenly get shut down. And it's really a shock to my system. I've experienced that with a lot of intensity. I'm just telling you, you don't have to do anything. I'll figure this out. I'm an adult, you know. But it almost feels better for me if you don't try to make me feel better so that I have the permission to feel bad. Yeah. And that is a situation that exists often in friendship. Don't make me feel better. Give me the space to feel bad in your presence, and then I'll get over it. Yeah. Yeah, I was just talking actually this morning to my therapist about that. Slightly different thing, but like another friend trying to get me to reframe how I feel about it. And I was like, at some point I will reframe, but right now I just want to feel bummed about this situation. And she was like, I get it. I hear you. So I do feel like there's ways in which I'm trying to do that more for myself and that dynamic to shift a little bit. And also doing that for myself, you know, because sometimes I can get caught in a like, oh, I just have to like pivot this so quickly. And I don't let myself just feel what I feel for a minute. Right. Before you get angry. Yeah. Before you get into the trap between do I preserve the relationship or do I preserve my experience? Yeah, true. Right? It's really you're going back and forth between, do I prioritize my authenticity, my experience, or do I prioritize our relationship and our connection? And at times they feel like they can't exist side by side. Though in the example you just gave me, they existed perfectly fine. There was a good example of, yeah, I just need to feel bummed out. I don't need to. I am. I feel bummed out and I appreciate your effort to want to perk me up but I'm not there yet. Is that okay with you? Can you handle me down? Well, I think to be fair, you know, I mean, not to be fair, it's not a way to preface it, but my friends, you know, it was really hard going through what I went through and I haven't even told you some of the other details of how my ex was bad and my friends had to come to my, not my rescue, but they had to be like the person to tell me things about him. While I was still with him. Tell me. What happened? I mean, give me what's important for us to know. I mean, it was a month after my father died and he went to New Orleans and he was planning all these trips with his friends and then he came back and word got through that he had been texting with this woman and was alluding to the fact that he was in a complicated situation, which was about me. And I challenged him on that. And so one of my friends came to me with that. I was like, oh, my God, I'm going to be like, oh, my God, I'm going to be like that. I had a lot of friends saying that he was going to go to their house and he said awful things about people. I don't even want to repeat it, but it's just he was threatening them in this really disturbing way. And it really scared me. And that was within about a month or two after my dad died. So I was like pushing him. But I was also just so fragile still that I didn't I didn't know what to do with it all. I was just really shocked by most of it. And I didn't tell my friends. The stuff that he the way that he was. I didn't tell them until after I split up with him. But it was scary. It was very scary. But I know that they knew he wasn't safe at that point. And so I think they were really trying to protect me and trying to be part of my life, but didn't know how to, like, do that well. So I think, you know, they've had experienced a little bit of their own, like, trauma with me. Maybe a hard word, but I think they were really scared, you know, for me. And have you ever said that to them? Yeah, I have. Okay. I have. I talked to some of them, especially the ones that were like right at the middle ground of all that, that I understood what they were trying to do. And I, yeah, so I just think they that's where I think they're just so they're very protective. They are like my I've known them since I was 13 years old. So they just want me to be. You know, healthy and happy. So I get their motivation to reframe and to make me think about it healthier. But sometimes I I'm not there yet. Do you tell them how much you appreciate it? Yeah, I do. Maybe not enough, but I do. I try to. You can never do too much. Yeah. In that department, because if a friend sees you go back to someone who is. Lying, threatening, cheating, dominating, controlling, using their power maneuvers, banging their heads to elicit your rescuing, your PT to disarm you, and you're in that entire escalation and then they see you go back. It's it's scary. Well, that's why I didn't really tell them about that. Yeah, part of his. Yeah. But then you don't tell them because you feel there's some because, you know, and you know better and you're ashamed because you don't want to tell them. But you feel like maybe you are so smart and you are so capable and you are going to change them and you are going to stop them and you are so unique. And what you had together was so special. It can't be that it was just one big mirage. And so. There is a kind of a grandiosity of thinking. That matches the grandiosity of the narcissistic abuse. Yeah. It's I can handle this in a crazy way. No, you can't. It's not that you can't. You shouldn't. Yeah. It's not a way to live. Neither for him nor for you, but it's not a way to live. So being there is worse than not being there. But in that moment, it feels the reverse. Yeah. It's a real. Distortion. And it's very powerful and it kind of completely blinds you of the reality that you are in and the worse it gets and the less you want to tell your friends what he said, what he's going to do, and you don't want to tell them because then he's he looks even more dangerous and threatening and crazy and then you being with him looks even more that there's something really the matter with you. And so this is how these kind of cycles perpetuate themselves because the shame that you have about being there is now becoming the fuel for the secret of the people who could help you not be there. Does that capture it? Yeah. Yeah. And it's taken. Every month that I have not had any contact with him, I understand a different layer each time of that dynamic and that that what you said about the, you know, grandiosity that matches the narcissism, you know, and the narcissistic abuse and just like realizing all of that stuff and all the shame that I kind of carried and I had my own reasons for being in it. And getting whatever it was that I was getting from it, you know, meaning I just think I was, you know, I did, there's, I still felt this, this tiny portion of like love and specialness to a degree. And I think that was part of his dynamic with me is that I think he could sense that I was. not wanting to put up with it. up with it and then he would just double down in some ways but then in both ways you know double down in the the love kind of and then double down in also the like the confusion yeah and the meaning yeah exactly and so I just and I that's when I really feel like I very much lost like all sense of my own intuition and thought process yeah yeah it has that effect yeah The kind of back and forth between elevating you and making you feel like you're the only one who can understand him and you're so special and so special. And then basically, literally dropping you on the other side of the nothingness and the meaninglessness and the demeaning has the effect of robbing a person of their identity. There is another form sometimes that we have of wanting to feel special that sometimes makes us think that we can handle things that in fact we shouldn't have to learn to handle. That's true. That's a different perspective of the word special. I can take it. Mm-hmm. And then when your friends say, you can take it, you're pissed. Yeah, right. Because you want to be able to say, I can take it, but you would like them to be able to say, lean on us. You don't have to be strong, resistant, hardcore, who can take it all the time. Yeah. And so you go back and forth. And this conversation ends with three dots at the end of a sentence. Not with a nice bow and not with a conclusion. But hopefully with a little more clarity. Yeah. And what else? I think clarity and compassion is something I've been thinking a lot about. Compassion and asking for compassion, but giving it to myself, but also just living in the world with more compassion and holding on to that. That more in a very real way. I think I've just lip service to it. It doesn't work. Yeah. Okay. Cool. All right. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you very much. This was an Esther calling. A one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40- or 50-minute phone call. Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Mulligan, Jamie Muller, and Julian Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul. 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