First 90 Days in a Design Leadership Role

[Music] Welcome to Product Design Bits. This is an event series brought to you by the Product Design team, a data dog, where we share insights on how, why and for whom, we will product alongside an invited guest. On this episode, we talk about the first 90 days in a design leadership role with Kim Calorie, Product Design Director at Data Dog, and Maya Von Del Guirin, head of Product Design at AirCall. This episode was recorded live at the Data Dog Paris office with your host, Teodor Ablindu, Product Design Manager at Data Dog. Maya Von Del Guirin is head of Product Design at AirCall, a scale up building a phone system, living and operating 100% in the cloud. Self-made designer and natural leader, she is keen on sharing her knowledge and experience to build strong, confident and creative design teams. She has been working for over 20 years in small to medium organizations, spreading design methodologies to focus on innovative solutions. Welcome to Product Design Bits, Maya. Thanks a lot. We're really happy to be here tonight. Happy to have you as well. I learned today that AirCall office is so close to the Data Dog office, you can actually see it. Yeah, it's just one block away, so that's cool. We actually met today because Maya is often busy giving workshops or traveling, so everything else, all that. So that's yeah, but it was cool to have a small catch up before we seven. So feel more confident about it. Great. Me too. And next, I have the pleasure of introducing a dear colleague of mine. Kim Calorie is the leader of a global design team of Data Dog working on a SaaS based data analytics platform. She's known in her industry for providing dynamic leadership, through mentoring, coaching, creativity and collaboration, and delivering innovative product solutions, the Aline and agile methodologies. Her passion lies in designing, teaching and exploring creative, innovative and fun ways to help people solve problems. A seasoned design leader, Kim has spent over 20 years in the trenches building products for medium and large organizations. Welcome to Product Design Bits, Kim. Thank you. Let's play. You should also know that Kim is based in Austin, Texas. We're very lucky to have her in our Paris office for the week. We should probably also say that you are my manager. She's my boss. I'm very excited to be here all the way from Austin, Texas, but she's definitely the boss in case anyone's wondering. I like to think Kim also is my mentor and my coach. So all of this to say no pressure for this event tonight. Talking to really two great design leaders tonight. It's going to be great. Tonight is all about product design leadership, a topic I'm very interested in having chosen leadership path myself. And more specifically, we'll be focusing on onboarding in the leadership role. My and Kim, you both hold very impressive roles at air call and data dog. Congratulations, and you should be very proud of yourselves. Can you please tell us more about what you were hired to do in your roles? So yeah, I joined air call like four months ago. It seems so long now. So I joined because the company is like like the end of the startup phase and entering the scale of phase. So it's also a way to kind of get be more structured, but also they wanted to focus on improving the design maturity within the company. So today we have a small team of we are six people, one user researcher and product designers. And we are structured based on the product main target users. So they had many experience. So they had mistrater and supervisor of the call center and the agents experience. So the people doing the calls are receiving the calls. So it's really a small team and a lot of challenge to raise for the company. We are based in Paris, some designer around our in France and also team in the Madrid office. So it's worldwide, but less than you Kim. I think we've already spent too much time together. I think we're best friends. So I also have joined data dog just about four months ago as a senior director of design. My scope is over application performance monitoring, digital experience monitoring and logs management and observability pipelines. So try to fit that on a business card. It is a lot of wonderful products that work well for the developer. And I technically was brought in to help scale the organization, improve the user experiences and also bring it enterprise design practices. So my background, it comes from larger to. Hi mom. My experience comes from larger to enterprise size companies. And so bringing some of that as data dogs scales as they went public just around two years ago. So I also came from different size teams throughout my career. I started obviously with one direct report and. I had a job I had 55 reports and. There was like a while moment there and and then here our teams range from sizes anywhere from five to about 30 people. So you know, helping to kind of scale all those different areas within the design org. So you've heard it. So Maya, you manage a smaller design team also a smaller product scope. Kim is on a larger team and like a lot more products. What is the difference when it comes to day day responsibilities when looking at what we call first line management, which is what you do today Maya versus executive line management that you do. Yeah, but for me, every day is like managing the daily design team routines, improving the methodology, but also like keeping sync with my peers like Ed of product manager. And also trying to contribute to the roadmap and influence the strategy strategy to improve the user experience of the product. And I'm also really ends on some projects on the strategic project. I'm also doing design and contributing a lot. So it's really a way to be ends on communicate with the team and the peers and the top management. So I think the main difference is maybe that I'm more ends on design than you. Yes, I am definitely not hands on design at this point. And definitely my last job. I was a design executive at IBM before this and I was definitely not hands on. I think I think my joke here is that there are definitely people that feels though there's no difference between these these roles like first line management and executive management. And I think as companies are larger, they definitely is a difference. I think the action of what you're doing is the same, but how you do it is differently. Like my peers are product management. My peers are development. They are. I'm stuck like glue to them. Whether they love it or not. And you know, we're working on the product strategy. We're working on the culture, the feedback, you know, making sure that we're making good decisions across the products and for the company. And while you're doing that at a first line management, your number one priority, however, is building those products and building that specific team member. And we have to do that at a much larger scale. I'm actually curious to know what skills. Do you think are best for first line versus executive line management? Like where do you draw the difference? Are there special superpowers need to have Kim, maybe for executive line management? I don't think there's any superpowers. I definitely think you have to be comfortable with the uncomfortable at this level. Like you have to be OK, sometimes going to conversations and being the one that says no, you have to be the one that pushes sometimes and opens the space for your designers to be able to actually do what they need to do. And I think that at the end of the day, you still need to have a foundation and design and understand design and be able to with a critical eye, look very quickly in and make some good assessments and pull yourself back out. And that's I think something that you learn over time. Yeah, so I'm having also executive management a bit lower than you, I guess, but yeah, it's also like sometimes as it's a small company is like direct touch point on some specific topics and projects. So I like the fact that you say that you have to be a bit fluids between the know it's not what we want. It's not the vision we have and it's not where the company wants to go better. Okay, but also trying to value why you did something and also sort of value of the design. So it's a bit different because it's again more enzyme and regarding operational project. But I think it's also like being fluid and not to when to value and when to say, okay, I don't want to fight for this. What are your what were your previous experiences that help you land where you are today? So for me, I joined Erkle because we were looking for someone being able to manage like a small to medium team. And also having people, someone who like me work on different type of users. So in the previous company like DelSado, it was also two kind of target users like the installers of automation devices and daily users. So being able to handle two type of users for the same product and make sure that we can access and give value for them. It was also for they were also looking for people who worked on bigger company. So when I work in technical or for instance, what's big company with a lot of process and different ways of working like someone who can handle and not being in a startup. Because that's the company wants to evolve. So also being able to accept that you have different ways of working than like the freedom that a startup could offer. Yeah, so I think that I also came from larger companies and this was a startup and there was specifically an award to have somebody that had those different perspectives to bring to the table to kind of show different opportunities throughout the team. I think in my career, I was super lucky. I've had sponsors, mentors, coaches, allies, all people along the way that have kind of said to me like, yes, keep going or you are messing up. I will not curse. I will not curse. Go this direction instead or when there are tears, they're there to help you clarify that things are going well. And so I've had a past of companies. I've had career jobs. I've worked at Engage Learning, which was library databases. I worked on Rocket Mortgage app, which is a mortgage company in the United States. And we literally changed how you get a mortgage in the United States. And then working at IBM, I was on Watson, the AI Artificial Intelligence products. And it's all three different experiences. You have the developer needs, but all of them have been really cool products that have given me really hard problems. But at the end of the day, the people that I have worked with on all those jobs, the people that I've kept in my network that I can still call upon when I have problems or need perspective. They're all there for me and that's really helped me get to this point. Wonderful. So those were really great, nice introduction, laying the ground. When I was talking to both of you a few months ago, I learned that you both coincidentally started your respective companies in September. So this is what we're going to dig deeper in today, basically talking about design leadership and the onboarding phase. Specifically, I thought that was a great opportunity to dig deeper into this very specific subject. So in chronological order, we're going to talk about onboarding, starting with the preparation for a new leadership role. So after years of working elsewhere for both of you, how did you prepare for a new management role and what was that like? So for me, it was kind of easy because a new VP product joined, like a year ago. And they had a lot of changes in the design teams. So before hiring a new head of design, here I heard a freelancer doing like part-time head of design and it prepared structure of things. So together the VP of Product and the freelancer organized a bit the team and defined what they were expecting for the head of design. So when I joined the company, I had the opportunity to have lunch with the interior in the end of design, let's say. And so I get to know the lucky to know everything about the team, the ways of working, and the expectations also from the bus. So it was really cool to have all those insights and to get to know the team a bit before and what they were expecting. And also the things that I could bring to the team. So it was really good to have this opportunity. Did you prepare at all before? So you got the job, you interviewed, obviously, it was a very tough process or easy process. You got the job. Yeah, I was a bit concerned about being like accepting the team because I heard that all the changes occurred. So yeah, I was like more trying to organize a bit the way I was planning to get in the team and then a bit beyond with the product team. But not much preparation, I like to kind of jump in in the pool to see how it goes. So I got a new job and most people would say, you should read about the company, you should study the company, you should go learn the products. I went on a meditation trip and learned how to horseback ride. No joke, that's what I did. And I tried not to pick up anything related to the company for the entire rig that I had between the two jobs. I think there is an expectation when you're an executive that you have to come in and you bring these things and you got to know it all. And then they burn out and then you wonder why. So I decided to try something different. And so I did, I went and learned how to horseback ride and I learned that I love horseback riding. So if anyone wants to go, I'm your gal. That's awesome. I'm just wondering, is it true what they say that the higher up the chain you go, the more pressure you have right from the start of starting a new company? I would say yes, but you have to try to forget about the pressure. Otherwise, I skimmed said you get like, over one, two or everything and don't put too much pressure on you. I think there's like two sides of that. I mean, here at DataDog, there's still a VP, Steve, he's awesome. He's amazing. He runs the team. And so I still have somebody in the design org to go to to look to. So I'm not actually like, like, my it gets to be the end answer for everyone. Like I still have somebody to go to. So I still have a nice city there. But I will say that I think if no one else puts the pressure on when you come in and there's an executive, you know, you go through lots of interviews. Lots of interviews. So there's a build up that like you're going to actually provide value and it's going to happen soon, right? And, you know, and your designers, they expect you like day one to have something really good to say. I think I let them all down. But, you know, I think, you know, your immediate team is looking for you to be productive very fast. And then the upper, the upper is want to show see that you have influence. You know, within a really good timeframe or, you know, they start asking you like, what are you doing? How are you doing? Should we have more conversations? So you mentioned day one. So you started it was day one. Next thing, you know, one week was over. How was your first week? And at which point did you start creating a learning path? F call on boarding is like amazing. So what we do is that they aggregate all the newbies and everyone start the same day. So we have like two or three sessions amounts. So it's like really collaborative. You feel like you're the band of the newbies, you're part of the team, you know, so it's really cool because everyone has a question. We have like a lot of sessions. So the I'm putting was really amazing for that. So you get to know the project, the context of the company really easily. So that's really cool. And then I discovered this day that two designer joined the same day as me. So it was like a surprise. But that's what's cool. We were like, okay, helping a bit each other at the beginning. So it's cool. But as you said, they expected a lot of their new manager. So pressure again. And yeah, so what I did is I did like kind of interviews, like doing a bit of design process within the company, like one one with the team, what you expect of head off, what would you, how do you see yourself in a couple of days, months, years. And and yeah, try to get all the information of the team and making sure that I could bring something. And also then I expand with my peers like Ed of product and and then with my with my boss. And for next quarter up and to go with the engineers director. So I hope that they are ready for me. You got this. I have faith in you. The day one so little tidbit. I did a lot of user research in my background and interaction design. But I was a user research a lot for many projects. And so I treat like coming onto a company like I use a research project. I'm like, okay, I've got to interview people. I got to take notes. I got to synthesize. I got to find the themes. I got to figure out what I got to fix, where are my opportunities. What should I do. And sometimes I did it too fast to like it. there were days where I would be like, "Okay, I can do this." And then I'd call Pedro and Pedro would be like, "Kim, calm down." And I'd be like, "Oh yeah, okay. "Okay, we gotta keep, we gotta wait." This is when your product manager would tell you, it's great, you're excited, but we're not ready yet. And so you'd have to wait at that a little bit. And so I still do that. I think one of the things is, as an executive, 90 days is not anything yet. And so it's really like at six months, you kind of finish that research project. And you're like, "Okay, I'm starting to actually understand things and can make more change." - I was wondering, first, what were your 30, 60, 90 objectives? When did you set those? - Yeah, so this one was a bit tough to kind of go back through that. And yeah, for me, the first objective was like being adopted by the team, making sure that my team was like confident working with me and that they really feel that I could bring value to them. So it was really important. I also had to hire a lead designer just at the opportunity to do it. And actually I realized when we talked, then we prepared everything that I set myself, my own objectives. Like I really wanted to make sure that the product team then beyond see that the design team will change and will see things differently and we will improve the ways of working and we will take the team to the next level. So it was important to kind of share what we are doing, what we plan to do and show that we are doing more than icons and picking the good colors. And then I had a lot of objectives that by my boss, like trying to help anticipate projects and the needs and trying to also improve the quality, to have a higher level of expectation in terms of design projects and solutions that we could be together with the PM. So it was really important to try to quickly understand how it works and where we could also influence and see how we could improve the ways of working. You mentioned, I have a follow-up question. You mentioned improving the design quality. How did you manage in the 90 days? - I guess it was. - Yeah, it's a good one because there's a user researcher in the team and we really focus also on having a kind of research routine and trying to find a way to improve the ways of doing quicker research to have a better feedback loops and improve that but also working on the deliverables and trying to document a bit more the solutions that we are building to have also like a better quality from the development team and improve the ways of sharing that but also improving the way we share the vision and the product that we want to build by doing prototypes and sharing prototypes across the PM team and the company. So building everything, trying to make a bit more tangible the design. So that's what we focus on. - Digi Manage and the first 90 days, it seems like amazing. - Superb for sure. (laughing) - Yes, well, we started having all these kind of things. So yeah, we have a new design process with a full month's routine including some iteration for user research. We also work on new ways of working like doing prototypes a bit more advanced and so on. So yeah, it's kind of, it's the beginning. We still have a lot of things to do but we're really happy. Well, I'm really proud and happy of what the team like changed and is making today. So yeah, that's was a good start. That's amazing. Like 90 days is definitely not enough and we're gonna talk more about that also as a follow up after but good job. - Thank you. - So my, oh yeah, we're on objective still. Okay, so my objectives. I, anyone that knows me knows I always have goals in mind. Like I always have some objective going. You've get to know me. And so by week one, I had written objectives for myself and the team. Again, remember I took all those notes and summarized them and themed them and then I started talking to all of my manager peers and they said chill out, which was appreciated. And then meeting with RVP Steve, he gave me some very clear objectives around. No, our team was really newly formed. All the teams were micro teams and we were kind of building to this bigger team at my level. And so, you know, we really needed to build that and that's still going. And then also I had to understand the products. I'm in a really large product space that's super technical. And so I started meeting with developers to learn the system architecture because even at the director level, if you don't get down a little deeper, you won't understand why a developer's telling us no. And if we should push back, right? We won't understand if the PM is balancing the market and the possibilities. And so I've been digging in, it's been hurting my head, but it's going really well. I have some fabulous developers that have been going through all of the system architecture of DataDog with me. And it's a slow process, but it's good. And then DataDog also has a bunch of onboarding and training to kind of balance the user perspective and how that actually just works in general. So kind of bringing all that together to kind of understand so that we can actually make moves going forward. - Okay, talking about objectives, do you have any tips on how to write clear objectives? - Unboarding objectives, but this could apply to objectives in general. - Yeah, I'd like to kind of do a kind of small to do list that is like on the first page of my notebook, like things that I want to reach as quickly as possible. So like, for instance, it was a lot about communication, communicating what the design team is doing, beyond the value we could bring beyond just doing deliverables. But yeah, I've got those five items and I still have one to take. So I have to work on it. - Shaf. - When you get to this level and as you move into this level, you always have to be selling yourself. So if no one told you that, start selling yourself more because you're selling yourself short by not. So I actually have a Google doc. No, I will not share it too. That has, from the month I started, like what goals I thought I was hitting, where I thought they were hitting, where they missed, where I changed. For every month already since I've been here. And before I normally do this quarterly to be fair. So I will shift probably in about six months to quarterly, where I start to align with the team and align to where they're going. But right now it's a perspective on just like, am I making some small wins? Am I making some progress? And do I have things that I can push back to the company and say, yeah, look, this is what I'm doing and how I'm helping. - No, that's very interesting. What I'm hearing is that it's not just about writing the clear objectives, but following up, measuring them, having a specific timeline, like for you, Kim, it's quarterly, for example. And Maya, you mentioned, starting small, so that it's achievable. But that's where you see that she comes home, user research and the more like different. Let's a bit less structure, maybe. But yeah, I think it's important to have a kind of set your own objectives and try to follow them, but in a structure or less structure way, but also as you said, communicate them. It's like trying to show what you're doing and the value you bring to the company. - I think the other addition to that is that the goals that I have so far are for me. They're not being shared out. Relates to the team, like they're just about getting need where I need to be and getting the team where I think they need to be. So they're kind of evolving, whereas in six months to a year, that will change, right? Then my goals are the team's goals and passing that, and talking about revenue and different things that are more important across the board. But right now it's about kind of getting up to speed. - Writing goals and objectives is an art. It can be tough. - Yeah. - I also want to learn about any structured methods you use during the time to accelerate your learning. So it's not always about learning, but also trying to get operational. And so I did the 101 interviews at the beginning, like doing a bit of research on how it works. And I had my notebook and I was doing sketch notes about interactions and, okay, so this guy works with him and this one impacts this part of the product and all that. So that was kind of small map that I did and I'm still updating actually. So it's really interesting for me. And I like to say that I've got a kind of prototype approach. So I was working with the design team and saying, okay, we should try new ways of working. So let's try this. We do some tests for a week or two. We give feedbacks, we iterate, and then we, it's becoming better. We are happy about it. We do a review one month after and then we share, hey, this is our new ways of working. So try to follow this, try to give the essence out about it. So it's also trying to, like, test and learn. we still have the. the team and getting everyone involved in the processes that we are building. So I already shared about user research. I think the other thing is that it's about making the three in the box whole. We'll call it community, but you know, getting the dev and the product managers and the designers really aligned and working together for the end goal all the time. So I call it three in the box. There are different names for it. But I met with one on one with all of those people for multiple weeks. And then I was like, Hey, you know what? We're going to try this all together. We're going to put three people in the room, getting three people's executive calendars to match is probably the hardest game you will ever have at this level. Even when they have executive assistants, which no, I do not. And so I will tell you though, and then they were like, they got there and they're like, now what? And I was like, it's going to be amazing. Just wait. I was like, I'm going to give you an agenda. And they're like, Oh, okay, do we have homework? I was like, potentially. You know, but really getting them to the point where they see that meeting is such an important thing that they want to come to it and be there to help all the way down the line. So from an executive perspective, I have to make the space for the design. I'm just trying to do the best thing that I can do. And I'm just trying to do the best thing that I can do. So, my you took the prototyping approach to accelerate your learning came you took the research approach to accelerate your learning very nice design already centric approaches to use. What were some of the opportunities you saw during this, you know, quick learning pass. And so once you started accelerating your learning by using prototyping techniques and research techniques over some of the opportunities. So the opportunity that I see is like expanding quickly to be on the design team. So it was really designed some trick at the beginning and then having the PMs involved with us in the process. And when I joined their call, it was like almost like a get my ticket to the design and that we are we have like anticipation. We have like almost a quarter upfront insights of what is expecting for the next quarter. We have a beginning of a clear road map shared in details with designers. So we have the ability to like stop focusing on the small things and probably to work on a bit more strategic aspect on the project. And I'm really happy because now we are starting a new project with the beginning of the year and designer involved really like upfront from the beginning from the first spark of an idea. So that was like the real challenge that I would have expected when I join and I'm happy that I'd be opportunity to do it quickly. So what do you think was your biggest win in your first 90 days? Oh, it's the fact that we have a weekly project update with the full product team and once a month is a design update. So it's like, hey, you've got small topics. Maybe we shall like 10 or 15 minutes with you. But now we're just going to talk about design. So this is what we did last month. We are demonstrating prototypes or new ways of working new methodology on project. And we are also showing what we plan to do. So just remind PM's if you forgot something. You may not be on time for this time. So you will may have to wait for the next one. So for me to us really the biggest win trying to be more organized as a design team. But also being able to share it with the product team where we belong. Yeah, what about you Kim any opportunities you saw during your first 90 days? Yeah, I mean, I think that I was still learning the products. So my design teams are running. They were doing well for the most part. They didn't have any major like nobody was screaming, you know, which was good. And so when you're an executive, you come in with a team. Okay, so they're okay. Where's the, you know, where's the bigger, you know, opportunity. So of course, we saw opportunities around hiring and, you know, making sure the teams were balanced things like that. So we worked on that. But in addition to those kind of things, taking that larger view, I was able to see that there was an opportunity around design management. And my last company, I ran a group, I co-eran a group with another person that we, we taught like skills to designers on how to be design management at first level. So they really understand that level. And I brought this up and they were like, yep, we know. And then there was a partner, Paul, who was like, yes, let's do it. And so we started the wonderful world of design management, which meets our eight weeks. And we're kind of, I call them teachable moments, you know, we're doing topics that are appropriate to that time period, you know, for wherever they're at. But also some things that they don't even know they might need or want to learn about. And then there were other things that I saw as opportunities around the feedback culture of data dog and like giving critical feedback in different ways and different methods. And I took a different approach with that one. I really started to understand the data dog way of doing OKRs. And we actually now have an OKR for 2023 around feedback culture and kind of looking at it broadly and really including the entire team, instead of kind of taking a myopic like team approach to that one, stepping back and looking at the whole organization. Can you actually talk a little bit more about the wonderful world of management and who's invited to those sessions and if you want to share. Sure, it's the wonderful world of design management. We don't just let anyone in. But everyone's welcome. The design management is specifically focused for people that are upcoming in management like or have maybe like a single like a lead that might have a single report. But basically you have to have on paper someone reporting to you and then it's all focused on first line. So no managers reporting to managers in there, no leadership. You know, I needed to be a really safe space for them to learn but also to ask the uncomfortable questions, which in design management exists more than you realize. And so yeah, they we did some activities at first around the heroes journey of what a design manager should look like. It was like a workshop activity and we took that feedback with the feedback from the leadership team and we now have an entire backlog for the year of topics that we're going to go over every two weeks. Very cool. I'm part of these sessions and I can say that they're very helpful and useful the company and and by the way, all of these tips related to writing goals and objectives and also accelerating your learning. Would you agree that they can be applied to a change of role within the same company and not necessarily a complete change of jobs. Yeah, I mean, looking back at my last job, I changed many jobs, right? I didn't start as a design executive there. I was there for seven years. And so I changed roles and I kind of learned as I went and I think it's a process, right? Like you're kind of you're learning what you want. The company is learning what they want from you and you're always matchmaking. I just want to make a tender joke like somebody's always swiping like. But you know, it's yeah, at the end of the day, you have these, I you know, I call them impact statements. And yes, I have a blog on that. If you want to learn more about how to write impact statements, but you know, if you can write impact statements about your work at any level. I guarantee you people will listen to what you have to say more. Any tips on writing really good impact statements. I have all examples on LinkedIn for you because my designers told me I was being too fluffy when I explained it at one point in my career. And so I have literal examples, but it's about actually taking all of your work and making it tangible to understand this is the moment when you have to think like a product owner, right? It's the moment when you have to make it tangible and not just say, I made great designs isn't it fabulous? You know, this is the moment where you need to say. I actually, it's a one of my impact statements that's out there is that I had the largest diversity number for all of the design organization and IBM for the last two years. And I quoted a percentage. This is a podcast. So I'll be good. But there's a percentage out there. And so that statement holds a lot more weight than saying, I helped diversity. Like sure, but what did you do? And the other way to look at it is a lot of people like to say, well, I did two projects or I did two things, you know, and that's a number. So they think that's good. But you're missing the impact of that right? It's more like, you know, we saw 10% uptick in our revenue because I fixed this feature and changed it this way right. And so from a managed perspective, we've two levels right we have the teams impact we have our own. impact and then we have like the bridge impact which is like the bonus of the team and you together you get impact statements there and I could go into how guys and women say those things differently but I'll wait because I think you're gonna ask me that later. Or maybe Q&A also people that interested in even more but looking back where the first 90 days critical for you do you think that the onboarding phase is even more critical in a design leadership space? Well for me like the onboarding part was a bit frustrating at the beginning because it was when you reach a company you cannot like start everything from scratch you have to finish the ongoing project so it was like okay we have this project to finish and it was like here for a long time and there is a high level of expectation but I you maybe not confident into the solution that has been done but you have to help and finish that and then you can start the new project from the beginning so this was really like something tough for me at the beginning and also like as I said like having two new people starting the same day as me so now you know that you have to ramp up like really quickly on the product and the objectives and the things to do and try to make sure that they get everything to start also as in a good condition so it was really hard for me at that time where their expectations high also yeah also so yeah how did you manage them? In fact I include them into helping me ramping up and sharing it and also trying to get to have them involved with the PM getting the insight so we can cross a check or every information that we had so it was also a way to work that way so yeah trying to get them also impact by the fact that I'm new and getting them to help me too so it was hard at the beginning but then we find a quick way to do it and find key topics to work on so it was really good so I think the 90 days is super important but I'm going to tell you something that no one told me until I became an executive which was that if you have executive sponsors in your life sponsors are just people that actually help keep you going like they tell you like you're doing great and I'm gonna help you go get that job because you're that's you right these are the people that he wants surrounding them they were like I have to tell you something now Kim and I was like what's that like three months into the job you're gonna want to quit and I was like why do you know something about this job and they're like no all executives do this and I was like what and so then I started talking to my like my executive friends and they're like oh yeah it's true and I was like what's why I was like explain this to me but there's like this disconnect right as an executive this is your community you're leaving and you're starting a new community and like you have to find your space and you have to find what works well and so it makes sense when they set it that way but they could have set it a little nicer to me but it does I think it is super important for you to like find that space for yourself and find that space within the company and I'll say it probably takes more than 90 days to do that but those 90 days help onboard you now I'd like to talk more about objectives actually and we're very curious to know what are your design objectives for 2023 since we're in January and started a freshman year yeah so yeah of course continue walking like doing cross collaboration with the PM and and beyond the engineer team it's something really important to me but also like make a bit more well try to find a way to ease the user research operation like today recruiting people at their call is a bit complicated so we need to find a way to improve that and again I've quick feedback loops so that's really something that we want to improve figmuffiles organization and design ops part and all that's like ways of working trying to build a single source of truth make it clear accessible to anyone that's something really important and there is something important to me is that I plan and I said to my boss we have to do this so every two months I want to have a couple of days with the design team and do creative stuff get a bit out of the operational daily work and trying to ramp up build something creating new features whatever and we will try to have this starting February help and yeah and I've got a strong objective for my boss is like is like really into user journey so I'm happy about it but we are small team and we have a lot of work but I'm definitely need to find a way to build those user journey that's really an objective for me and also I want to keep on communicate but more at a company level but what we are doing as a designers and yeah and so many things to do and it's just the beginning of the year I find it so cool to learn about people's objectives it's like peeking at someone else's backyard and like seeing like hey what are they up to that's great good good luck it's a long list but yeah I'm sure I didn't bring my book for you guys but I mean higher level right we have that OCR for feedback culture for the year that I'm held responsible and that has key results every quarter that we're working towards to meet and there's a lot in each one I've claimed we're going to do trainings and activities to learn how to do critique and Pedro is going to do all of it for me but just kidding Pedro's got it all done already every quarter though we have you know different key results that we're going to try to hit for that and so that's going to be very exciting and a big objective the other one that I always have for my teams which has already started to sprinkle into my teams is just we need to leverage I'll say data in some way better whether it be you know metric data whether it be research data like we just we want that intertwined into the process more and so anytime I see opportunities I'm going to try to push that that's always an objective for me so obviously for you as well Kim that's a lot of objectives and you just mention Pedro will do it I'm sure other designers will do it I will also be very involved in your objective so how do you build your what do you even call it community of people community your stakeholders that will help you with your objectives and like where do you see your impact being as the owner of that objective so because Pedro is awesome my boss here he made sure that we wrote like success criteria what success would look like well we would get at the end of the year thank god so he made sure that we did a very thorough process so I have the answers for those questions I think we'll hit half of it so I think the key to being an executive is knowing that you're pointing way too high and being okay with it but we have to rally the team you know I am a little bit much as you can see the handle and so I'm like this with my team as well on purpose right I want our team to be excited about it I want our team to want to do it and if we can't get that buy in from the leadership which I've done the work for the leadership level right now it's for the team level then we have failed I have failed right we need to see progress but progress in my world is an executive oh I can't do visuals because this is a podcast so progress is you know it could be a small little step can be a progress for us to see it's a different way of people thinking it's a different way of people doing something just a tiny little change maybe a different agenda maybe they start the clock different maybe they have a facilitator maybe they're they've got a critique agenda you know maybe they're going to do live critiques in addition to written critiques so I truly believe what's got me here to this day is small wins I am all about the small wins I like big wins I can't remember the last time I got a big win you know everything is about the small wins and so when I look at my objectives I'm looking for those small wins and when my teams have the small wins I mean I think you guys already know like I go crazy and slack I'm like oh my god and they're like and this is not that big of the other like yes it is it's a small win let's do it you know we have to celebrate too I think to make objectives valuable and to make us keep going on them what about what about you Maya how do you measure the success of your objectives you know I know it's like more about like feelings and sharing and making sure that everyone kind of understand it but sometimes I like like you know what I we talked about the value of the team so when a project cannot start if the designer is not in the room I'm happy this is like a win and a way to measure the success of the impact that we are having so it's also this kind of little details and little little win that we could have that are really valuable to me that that's great and we wouldn't be able to end tonight without touching upon a very important subject, gender diversity in tech, and especially in design leadership. So you're both woman and leadership roles. And in a very engineering driven company, do you have any biases? And do you feel like there are certain expectations as a woman executive? - Well, for me, before joining the F. Colour, I heard a lot about equity and a lot of topics that were raised and I was a bit concerned, is it like about having good communication on every social network or is it really true? But it's the first time that I really see a company where we have a lot of women and leadership. It's really interesting to me. And I really feel like, well, it's not half-half, of course. The engineer part is way more male-oriented than female. But it's like, yeah, for me, it's really a good. It's the first time that I see as much women as in the company and having like executive role, so that's really cool. And for me, I didn't have any like a lot of bias by being a woman. I small like my bias, I'm more here because I'm a self-made designer. And in France, it's a bit complex when you don't have any degrees and not have any diploma that makes you like official executive leadership in design. So it's more that's kind of biased that I could have than being a woman. It's more like, yeah, so sometimes I say to myself, oh, you have to stick to the table with your peers, or even the meeting is over, we keep on talking, stay here. And then now, okay, you don't have to do too much, you don't have to be bad, but sometimes, you know, like women are sweet and nice. And you have to also sometimes show that you can end old, conflicted situation, hard things and take decision and trying to be a bit, yeah, like that, a bit bossy. Is it, yeah, but even if I don't like it, I really feel that we could do things like in a sweet way. But yeah, so for me, I don't see really difference being a woman, but it's more like my bias, my own bias is more like because I'm a self-made designer. I don't think where we want to be with gender balance in the US in most companies. Data Dog being one of them that it's an initiative they're on and I think they're working hard at it. Thanks, Data Dog, you brought me in. But I think there's still opportunity to grow there. I think that when you look at executives as women across the United States, I've done a lot of interviewing and some of the answers were amazing to me. So I thought you might enjoy these. One interview said, "You've never had 150 reports so you can't be an executive." And I said, "Design hasn't been around long enough for any woman to have 150 reports so you're basically telling me that you don't want a woman for this job." And he said, "Yes." And I said, "Okay, thanks. Have a great day. Have fun." So you still, and these things surprised me. I was one of four women in my graduating college course for my undergrad. So it's not new to me to not have women around me. But I was very lucky at the same time. I grew up in a timeframe where women were kind of being promoted and around me. And so I've had some awesome women leaders that have worked with me. But I feel like we've gone a little backwards recently in promoting them in fairness, and also just supporting them, you know. But on the other side of quite a lot, because of all that, I hold on my own bias as well. And so I think sometimes I assume things that what people will do. So I told you I would share my personal story. I'll share my personal story. I have, I technically have cancer. And when I was going through this interview process, I was scared, shitless, that if they found out I had cancer, they would not hire me because there's an assumption that comes with cancer. I'm three years past, chill out, we're fine, team, we're fine. You know, that, you know, they wouldn't hire me. They would look at me differently, you know. And I know plenty of women that won't tell people that they're pregnant, you know, because they can't, you know, oh my God, you're gonna take time off. And that would be terrible. And so I think that there's, that we put on ourselves. And I think that, you know, sometimes it's true, sometimes it's not, but I'm hoping we get to a better place where like, you can just say that and it's okay. We work past it. - Yeah, thank you for sharing your personal stories. It's interesting to see the difference between the US and France and how women and executive roles could be seen. And perhaps for you, my, it's more your perspective working at smaller French companies. - Yeah, yeah, it's true because like, sometimes I try to be like, candidate in bigger French companies. And it's like, you don't have your diploma. Okay, thanks. Next. So I was like, okay, I'm feel happy that maybe I don't want to work in that place. I really need like a place where I can feel like, it's kind of open-minded and making sure that we can value also like your 20 years of experience, feeling cold. But I think it's like trying to find the value of everyone and the things that I think that everyone can bring something. I don't get to get involved in the team and in the product. And yeah, so I think it's a bit sad in France that we are still like, diploma oriented. - Yeah, I agree. On both parts, like the US and France could use some learnings and improving, but we're right on track. Hopefully we're moving towards the right steps. So talking more about the future, how are you helping to hire and support women leaders in tech? - Well, for me, it's like, yeah, trying to have everyone like on the same table stack. Like, don't care if it's a man or a woman in front of me. It's just like trying to value the expertise and experience. And I'm also really interested in air call approach. We have a lot of groups to promote to like mentor. So groups for women and equity, but also for different queer, like queer call and black collective as Jan and initiate alliance. We even have a book club that is like really cool. So you have a book like talking about every minority that we can have and we can also like, express rule like book reading, a bit more, maybe the difference minorities. So it's really cool. So I think that there is really something in air call that is really valuable and that feel really attached to that point of view. Wonderful initiatives. - Yeah, so every initiative we have all of those, but they have some dog nickname for them because data dog is extremely good at naming things. But I would say also, I feel it is part of my executive job to try to help more in this area. I think there was a long time in my career where I was like, what, I don't need to do this. It's good, we're good. There's somebody there. And then I got up here and I was like, oh, I guess I need to help or like I should help or. And I didn't used to talk about it much and I didn't used to push people. Like if you say girl around me and it's for someone under the, over the age of 18, I'll remind you that they're named a woman. Like and I will do that in every conversation. Ask my parents, they're really loving that. So I think, you know, part of it is talking more, making a space. I will take a meeting with anyone on my calendar around the topic now and I will listen and I'm now taking it to the executive team and giving them feedback and they asked for, you know, more information in this area, which is good. And I try to mentor and coach those equally, right? But also if there's people that want on this topic, I try to take them on to the best of my ability and try to help them. I think the one thing I saw growing up in my career was that everybody always said, well, here, we're gonna mentor you to be a leader. And it was always a man. And I said, but I don't want to be a leader like you. I want to be a leader like me. And so I'm trying really hard to help mentor coach people just who they are and giving them the skills to do the job and let them find their space. - That's beautiful. Thank you for everything you do. For the design, the women design leadership space specifically. I would like to open the floor now for questions. Okay. - Questions. Any questions in the audience or remote? - Okay. So I have several questions, but I think I will sort some of them. But I think what is interesting, is that you said that you was feeling pressure from your designer that was already here and now you are on their bus and you have to tell us what to do. But did you. Did you feel that you was putting pressure on them when you came? And if they was waiting something from you? Yeah, that's something that I hope that I didn't put too much pressure on them. And that's why, like, the first week I said to one of our. The first week, what do you expect of me? How can I make your life easier? How can I value what you're doing? What do you want to be later on and trying to get all for me as like a. These are also like the kind of objectives that I want for you. And I will help you on these topics. And now you have to help me also getting on board and getting to do a great product. So it was like a pressure also to me. That's this way of managing a team. We'll suit them or not. And yeah, trying to make sure that they are happy about being here and trying to build really a strong team altogether. But it was like pressure for me and I hope not too much pressure on them. Yeah, I think that when you start, you know, I don't use the word executive, right? Like Everest. It's like, "I'm just a designer. Like, it's okay." And then there are days where you need the reminder that like they're looking at you as if you're over here and that you have something to offer them and that you have answers and that you've got connections. And so you have to kind of remember also to play that role for them so that you don't break them out, right? Like, "It's okay. We're just doing this thing and we're going to get through it and I'm not judging you right now. I'm not going to come and, you know, tear you apart." And I think finding that place to give feedback and listen is really important. I think that helps kind of balance it. Yeah. And maybe another question is that when you came and you did all that on-bounding stuff, what was in your point of view in your opinion? The first bus thing you did, the first time you did something like executive person. Maybe one point on my team's point of view is like starting aggregating all the two things they have on their own and trying to make it like one to do, like a team to do and trying to define this. So this was more like a manager trying to get things a bit more organized. And then also like with my boss, like starting sharing my first impression on the team's ways of working and expectations also. So for me, it was like getting to know a bit more from the project and making sure that here understand that I can have a view on what's going on or not sometimes because it was a bit blurry. But yeah, trying to communicate with them also like in a transparent way is the VP of product. And then saying, OK, I've got an understanding on this part. I need more information, but also trying to be transparent with him. So he can also help me ramping up. So trying to be honest and say, yeah, I'm missing information. I need your help from him and my team. I'm here to help you. And we're going to do it all together as a team. I think I have layers of that answer. I think, you know, for my boss, it was when I came back and said, you know, these are the things I'm seeing here are my recommendations. And here's why from my experience, if you skip these things, this is where you're going to be in six to eight months. And so that was very powerful for him. I think I have two layers. I have, you know, to my leadership level and then I have my team level. And the moment I think my leadership, probably my first leadership was when I got them a priority list for the first time from all of the executive team. We did a lot of slack excitement over that. And then my team probably still out on my team. Probably are still curious what the heck I'm doing. I think they see moments. You can ask them, but I think they see moments, but I don't think the impact is there for them yet. We have a question online. How did you realize you are meant to be a leader? Hey, I can take this because I've done different talks and I've answered this question multiple times. I've been a boss since I came out of the womb. My mom and dad will tell you this. I have always said like, I'm going to run teams and I take after my dad who run who ran teams. I always tell the story of like, you're, do you have in France that take your kids to work day? So I went to take your kids to work day and I saw my dad and I came home and I said, I'm going to be my dad. My mom said, well, what did you see him do? I said, he tells people what to do. And she was like, that sounds about right. And then I combined it with design. But no, I actually started in teaching. I mean, I went to school for interaction design and I've taught almost every grade level. I ran a team department at the college level. And so the foundation of everything I do is around teaching. And so I actually find leadership just another form of teaching. For me, I think it's more like my background. So as a self-made designer, I had the opportunity to meet people who like help me grow and become more experienced and all that. So having this kind of career paths, getting to know people, like experts and having great experience, teaching me the way to become better and better. And it's something that I finally wanted to share with everyone. So I was like, OK, so now I want to help people getting better and trying to facilitate the work and being happy with the fact that we all deliver something as a team. So yeah, for me, it was more like based on the way I enter into the work and the ways of working with the amazing people that trust me. And that helped me become a leader. I have a lot of questions. My first question is, when do you imagine that your impact will be visible and that you will be embedded in the team and that everything that you want to put in place? Like you would be like rightfully the leader that you want to be in your organization. This is my first question and my second question is, I'm a design ups manager. So I'm very interested in how you see collaboration with design ups. And I leave the third questions for later. Yeah, for me, it's like, so I still have a small team. So I'm having a lot of one on once. And the first question is always how is it going? It's not about the project and making sure that people are feel happier, but the work, maybe a bit personal life also. But make sure that we have a good balance and all that. For me, it's like when people say, you know, I'm happy that you join. And now we are doing things in a better way. And when we start also like getting involved and saying, I've seen that, I like it. But maybe we could go beyond and move forward on that topic. So for me, it's really like where I see that I've got an impact on my team. So I think that, let's see if I got this first question right. It's about impact, right? I think that culture is very, very important to me as a team. And if the team is starting to work together as a larger team, because remember, they were separated before. So bringing them together is a step in the process. My last time I was there for seven years, it probably took me six years to feel like I was like in the groove to be really honest with you. I do think it takes about two years to be honest to get to where you know all the right people and the products. And you've got the team jelly, even if you're changing the team members. But in that process along the way, I don't think it takes you two years to show all of that. I think again, it's about six to 12 months in my opinion. And then about the partnership with the design ops. I've already mentioned Pedro. Pedro's are awesome design ops. So he's here. But I think working with your design ops is only going to make your team stronger. They are the core of everything you're doing, especially the large company. And you can go around design ops. And then it's going to be painful. I had a team do that once they went around design ops or before design ops existed. Back to that 20 years experience. But but in general, I think the teams have to it has to be a partnership. I think when it fails with design ops is when it becomes just a gift. And then the team is just taking. I think that's when it becomes bad. It has to be a two a street, my opinion. Yeah. So we're small team. We don't have any design ops today. So a bit the design ops of the team. But it's something that we really want to well, I hope if the take situation evolves that we will have a design ops soon because for me, it's really key to have someone like helping the team. Being consistent and being able to share our beyond the design team and getting more structured. And for me, it's like saving a lot of times to do like creative time and and explorations and and being more organized. I agree with you that it shouldn't be like her. like a service of the design. And it's really more like we'll walk together part of the team and doing it all together. So for me, it's facilitating and structuring things. So it's really key. But as a real team member, I think we have time for two more questions. There's one online that I'll ask really quick and then I'll jump to. After making the jump from ICT leadership, did you miss the day-to-day design work? How did you get to scratch that creative pitch? No, it is. I'm a lucky that I have a small team so I can still be on. And I don't know how you do. (laughs) I sometimes need to deep dive in a figure where I do crazy things and yeah, be still a bit contributing about the design. So I'll let you answer this one. - So design is different at this point, right? So what I design is different at this level, I do get really excited to make like figmas of a work chart. I know that doesn't sound very exciting to you, but it is really exciting. Sometimes I have to visually make them just to make my, you know, happiness. But I think the thing about being a design executive is that like say there's a product strategy coming up and we recommend a workshop. I might stay more involved to help make sure the direction of that workshop and how that workshop is handled and the activities. Are going down. And so, you know, that kind of like, oh, like I'm involved, that's cool. But am I like in figma and a figma file anymore? No, I really am not. When did that change? Again, I've been a manager for a very long time. But when I was being an IC, it was all about prototyping. I was in mostly interaction or research, right? So I told you I'm doing research all the time. So that I'm still doing. And then the interaction design was really about like trying things and seeing if they work. And so if you're my team members, this is a secret about me. Like I love when they're like, look, I tried this thing and look how cool it is. Like that somehow like gets me so excited that it's almost feels like I'm still scratching that in that way or when they fail. I love when they fail and I can help them like learn from that. I'm like, yes, like that. Like I come home, my poor husband. I'm like, I have to tell you this story. And he's like, oh God, help me. And he's a really good sport about it. But I'm like, I got to tell you about how they failed. And then what I told him and then like, look what they did with it. It wasn't even where I was headed. Like they did something cooler than that. That is magical to me. - Thank you so much, Kim and Maya for sharing with us today. And first of all, especially thank you for everything you do for the design leadership space. Give me a big round of applause for Kim and Maya. Thank you. (audience applauding) (upbeat music)