Fintech Helping Families Navigate Grief & Money

[MUSIC] Welcome to Money is in Everything. I'm Mary Wisnusky, Cornerstone Advisors, Editor at large, and host of the show that explores early stage ideas that could, if not already, shake up financial services. Today on the show is Ben Holt. He's the founder and CEO of Atticus, a young fintech firm that's built in the state settlement inheritance platform. We chat about a lot of interesting things, including the idea of gifting financial services products like Atticus, and we also explore how inheritance could change as Gen Z ages, and the thinking that goes into designing an app that aims to have users need the product less. As Ben said, we don't want someone hanging out here. We want them to get it done so they can move on with their life. Here's our combo. Ben, welcome to Money is in Everything. Thanks so much for being on the show today. Thanks, Mary. Good to see you. Yeah, good to see you too. I just wanted to get right into it. I have a big smile on my Facebook. We're about to take it to a darker place immediately because of what you're building, but which is a heavy subject, but it's something everyone encounters when, you know, what to do when someone dies. In your case, like guiding individuals through the money process, and I'm just really curious of how you entered this world or decided, hey, this is what I want to, you know, help build a solution for. It's a great question. And yeah, it can get dark. It can feel heavy. I've actually had engineers and fast developers turn down opportunities to join us because they were thinking, oh, this is going to be kind of emotionally difficult to build in this space. But I would say like it's interesting across our team. We really try to have an uplifting view on it and it being something that's beautiful. It does happen to everybody and it's kind of not culturally normal to talk about it across families, which is one of the big problems across the industry, whether it's Pentac or even the legal industry and normalizing some of these conversations. But it can be something that's very beautiful. And that's the way we try to try to approach it and try to make it feel like that for families because they've got so much on their plate already as they go into things emotionally. The biggest thing we could do is try to take off some of the logistical administrative partners. But to jump back to your question, how I got into it, I fell into a track on the estate seven inside through my background and my education actually through college as trust and wealth management. So I went to a school that has the only undergraduate program in the country for trust and wealth management. It's taught through law professors at the law school and it literally puts out 75 85 students per year that go on to be trust officers for the private banks and the trust companies across the country. It's a really niche program. It's really, really cool. It's an insight into kind of how wealth is acquired and how it passes, both from the legalistic sense in terms of how to structure things and tax avoidance. But also in the sense of like how do you pass that down philanthropically or even to other family members and kind of steward the same culture values that may treat our kind of kept as they acquired that. Speaking obviously to our high-knit worth individuals. But I went into a program through school for that. It was working for a smaller boutique family office for a number of years. Then recruited out to about out some of the generational transfer offerings for Bank of America, US Trust, on San Diego. Their business was high retail investment and a lot of brokerage, a lot of lending. They wanted some more of the trust assets. So I did that and then it's on opportunity to fall into the estate settlement side. It built out some software and so yeah, long story short, that's kind of how I fell into to this side. Well Ben, you didn't start with your Q&A of your, that's on your website that you were in the watermelon picking business. Those were my first jobs. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I know, right? Well, it's funny. So my mom's out of the family grew up doing watermelons. My grandfather had a brokerage where they would buy watermelons from Florida, Georgia, South Carolina. As the season would progress and then ultimately picked their own watermelons in North Carolina and then Virginia. But we would sort them out in a warehouse and sell them brokerage style to the grocery store. So when you walk into a grocery store and you see the big cardboard box with all the watermelons in it for many years there, that's what I was doing. It's touching those and throwing them. I spent many, many of summer's throwing watermelons in hot North Carolina summers and I'll tell you what, that will teach someone young to study hard and to work hard and go get a different job so you're not doing it for 40 years. But yeah, a lot of fun doing that. Yeah, and it has a dreamy quality to it as an outsider. I mean, I've picked strawberries for jam for the family, but that was like a one day sort of situation. Then you started this chat by talking about like the beautiful side of this too. And I think that's really important because it's something I'm noticing with like banks, credit unions and fake fintech. It's usually focused on like the, you know, more of the, oh, retirement, you're walking down the beach sort of thing and that that's the future. But you're drilling into something else and you're right, like the cultural norm is not like to embrace or think about death so much or it's, and so you're a billionaire product that is in, it's engaging in the darker subject and the end. And as you said, beautiful subject. And I remember I think this is what maybe brought us together a bit ago, but and I saw that the blog was still up was like your funeral playlist as like, hey, what are your songs? So yeah, let's talk about that. Like how, how you create content to be like, hey, this is not just like darkness. It's also a celebration. I think a lot of people have different approaches on it. And it's really interesting. The timing in which you catch those conversations. And so a conversation between you and I now or the viewers who are listening that don't have this going on versus those that maybe just lost the loved one and what they're, their sensitivity is to it. And you would think that the ones that just lost somebody would be the least likely to want to speak towards this or even have the cheerfulness of like, have got a song recommendation. But it turns out that like when I'm in conversation, so a lot of times it's just a call with a bank partner or even just, you know, a call with some of our customers leads that they're saying, hey, I saw that that article, for instance, and I'd love to add something to it. So that list is backpiled by a lot of of recommendations from people that we actually engage with, which is really cool to see. But yeah, I think everybody approaches it differently. Some people have plans, some people have wills, some people don't in the wills, some people specify like the way they want their funeral to go. You know, some people are like, I don't care. Give me a Viking funeral. Set me out at sea and hit me with a torch and arrow. And like, I'm gone. Don't worry about it. And the others are like, no, I really want to have this scripted kind of experience. And this is what I want. Whether it's the music or this is how large I want it. This is the gathering. This is that I want from a conversation standpoint. This is what I wanted to feel like. So it does vary a lot. And I saw, and I think this is really striking, is that you can gift Atticus to someone. And then got me thinking like, oh, gifting a financial product, financial related product is a very interesting idea. So, you know, hey, do people do that and be like, what made you try this out? The way we started with that, I think was from a conversation with a client or the customer. I never know what to call them. You know, in the text space, we call them users in the banking world at user. And the trust role particularly, like when you're talking behind it, earth and trust management, you're talking about clients that are users. It's like all of a sudden, spend through apps or they've got some, you know, addictions and abusions. It's fine from a conversation standpoint. So we'll call them clients. But we were talking to a customer and they were saying, I've got so many flowers sitting around my house or did they did at the time. And that it felt beautiful. It felt loving. But then all of a sudden, there was this wave of grief that came, you know, two weeks after the passing, when all of the flowers started to wilt and die. And it made them realize, like all of a sudden, the second time how empty the house is or just the second wave of the grief of loss and of death. And it was from that conversation, they said, I wish I had had less flowers. Everybody didn't know what to do. They wanted to bring me something. What I really need is help now. Everybody was there at the funeral. Everybody held my hand as we were going through this process. But no one was there for me afterwards when the real stuff happened, whether there was a bell that needed to pee paid an account that couldn't access because their name wasn't on it. Things of that nature. And they didn't really have anyone to speak to. There was no centralized advisor. There was no attorney that could step in and do some of this. The life insurance was in a different place. And they really needed help from someone just to kind of walk them through it. And that was that was kind of the novel concept towards, like, can this be a gift? Can loved ones gift this to to each other? And absolutely. And so we do see that now. So we enabled that as kind of an offering. And in a lot of times, what we see for that usage is that prior customers of ours will come back and will gift that to a friend or a family member in need when they hear of someone this bastard way because of the value they got from our product. And they know about it. Yeah, well, let's talk about your product because it feels like a guide. And through a process like how long is I know it changes? It depends on like all the legalities. And do you have a will? Do you not? As you already like, hinted toward, but like, what is the range here? Is it like a year plus? It can be. I mean, to speak towards averages, I would say on average, it's like eight to 12 months. There are certain legal things that keep the time gate process. So as an example, one of the big things is that, and it makes sense, like, from a government and legal standpoint, is that you want to time gate it to that in a state doesn't close too quickly. So that any potential creditors of the state have the ability to get assets from So let's say that, I don't know, and ant or ant, like is out there, it's not a parent, but they're there, they had some plumbing worked on or electrical work done and then they passed. How does the plumber, how does the electrical, contractor learn of the passing, how do they submit a claim, how do they get money from that estate so that they're not just out. And so from a legal standpoint, there's time gating where you can't start the process towards a certain amount of days, typically like 30 days after the date of death. And then you can't close from a statute of limitations standpoint till it varies, three and a half, four and a half, six months based upon the types of assets or the state that they're living in. But beyond that, there's a lot of logistical things like closing the accounts and just tidying up the loose ends. We did a big study a while back and on average, executors were spending around 500 hours working to get through this process. And so whether that's in a few months or over the course of a year, it varies. It gets more complicated when you've got multiple beneficiaries. Adult children are still very much children, siblings that have brought up are still very much, children when their parents pass and becomes a lot of arguments, not always negative and contentious sometimes. And you have litigation or mediation with legal parties. But you also have disagreement due to the emotional sense of assets and the connections they each of the beneficiaries might have. So let's say it's a family farm. Let's say it's the matriarch's house that the second, third generation have come and done Christmas app for the last 30 years. How are you going to sell that house? Half the family wants to keep it. The other half doesn't. The logistical side of if you're going to keep it, who's going to pay for it? Property taxes and maintenance and cutting the grass. If there's all sorts of decisions, and when you're emotional, there could be a lot of disagreements. And so that was slow the process down. Our goal at Atticus is to automate as much as possible, increase transparency, decrease the cost, decrease the amount of time spent, having some of these conversations. We could step in with tack and facilitate, a best means resolution. But a lot of times, it really is just dependent upon the family taking the time to marinate on the ideas. One of their options, learn what has to happen from a logistical standpoint, and then ultimately make those decisions and act upon it. Have you found-- are you using Gen AI in your product design? Or do you see it? Yes. Yeah, AI is. Yeah, it's fascinating. It's changing daily. That's the topic that I don't know. I could spend hours thinking through and talking through. We aren't using it. I think there's huge potential for it to be used more. We were slow to adopt on some of this because a lot of the early AI in my opinion was really, like you said, Gen AI. So generative, like content, creating content. And what you saw with a lot of founders or a lot of startups was, let's go blast a lot of SEO articles. And things of that sense, we've always taken the approach of wanting our users to need our product less or to read our content less. A lot of our team came from TurboTax. And it was a very similar mindset there. It's different than building an app like Instagram where you're trying to increase time and app how many daily active users, monthly active users. TurboTax is like the more simple it is, the more adoption you're going to get. And the more simple it is, the less you need it. You might have 10,000 screens, but let's hope it only takes five or 10 minutes to get to the tax-fibre process. And so it's the same kind of connection with us. How do we decrease the amount of time that a user needs to engage with our platform? So from a generative standpoint, we've never been of the mindset of like, let's just create more content. Let's try to reduce a lot of that. We'll use Gen AI conversational need to try to soften the tone. One certain things are come up with a talk speak to accelerate some of our copywriting. More so, I'm excited for the deeper LLM kind of things that are happening now around MCPs or agent to agent. All these agent work flows where we can actually start stitching systems together to achieve different things. So as an example, maybe you're an executor and you need to contact time order cable to close a relative's account. Companies out there, not typical to any individual, companies out there aren't really incentivized to invest money into optimizing the experience of offloading customers. And so it gravitate towards being difficult and frictional. How do you close an account? What are the paperwork you need to submit? How do I know that Mary is authorized to close a Jones account when I can't talk to Jen. How do I know this is a legitimate? That's certificate. How do I know this is a legitimate paper? How do we go through that process? And so again, when you speak back towards why this takes a long time, you're having to do this across multiple companies. How do we automate some of that? I see potential for that very much leaning in towards agent to existing systems. The work flows that they can automate it. You've got a burden of authorization and who is the user and how do you authorize that. So we get really excited on that side of it, proven out who the executor is. You're obviously very familiar with KYC, know your customer from the banking world that's ingrained upon me. We've come out with something similar, which we call it KYE, know your executor. And so we'll actually go through a verification process where we will ask our customers for these different steps to verify who they are and the ultimate being really, the signed form that you need back from the government from the court system saying, yes, Mary's authorized to act over this estate. And that's also, by the way, a form that we help surface for the user. So as a customer comes, the typical lifecycle is someone passes away. They have a funeral, everything happens. And then like 30 days later, all of a sudden there's a mortgage to pay or rent to pay. And they're like, well, I don't want to pay it. And siblings are like, I don't want to pay it. So how do we get access to the money to pay it? That starts the whole flow of like, what do we need to do? We haven't thought about this yet. How do we put our hands around the assets, the accounts, the estate, and start acting. And you go down to the local bank and the bank's going to say, I have an applif. I heard the private bank come into the retail bank and educate us towards some of these topics. But it's over my head. I'm not sure. I just know I can't touch it. Good luck. And so that's really where we step in. We help provide the right forms. How do we get you authorized to act? And then we verify that. That's where I get really excited from. And AI standpoint is that what somebody has been verified, how do we kick into some agents and some workflows that will start to do some of that? Whether it's a generator or a time order for you, so that you're not riding it, or to go connect to obituaries.com and step some of the information you create on for you. Things of that nature that can really just be embedded into creating efficiencies. Yeah, Ben, that's so interesting. Because I think banks and credit unions get infidels. Well, they have different approaches to this, right? Some of them actually do want people to linger into their app, even if it's just to handle their transactions. So the fact that you're designing for, like, get out of here, make it easy during this unusually stressful time. I'm projecting, but I have to think that's often the case. But what's a design trick or something that you do to be like, hey, we want this. We don't want someone hanging out here. Yeah. A lot of it is designed towards progress. So throughout our experience, we have a very visual sense of what's next, what do you need to focus on next? We have like, nearly infinite reading, we can go and learn and educate. But it's our theory that like, you don't really want to become an expert on this. You just want to get through the process. So what is next? And so we have full details for everybody. But our goal is to always shrink that down into the most minimal amount of reading. We started actually as a mobile app. And now we're much heavier desktop usage and kind of web platform. A lot of that being because of COVID, right? We started with mobile app. Because a lot of the tooling was like, I'm on the go. I'm at the relative's house and taking photos of the assets that we need to be split up across beneficiaries. I'm doing this on the fly. COVID happened. We all get locked down in front of our devices. And so I'm not on the run quite as much. Also, as we got deeper into some of our building, a lot of the forms, capabilities, and actually doing the work spreadsheet. It just renders a lot better on a larger screen. But even still, we've retained that sense of visual design towards everything that we write should have a summary snippet. And then you can expand for the full details if you would like. Or even taking them out of our platform or rescinding them to emails to their inbox, saying, hey, this is next. Click the button, and we'll go do it. And then we authorize who the user is through those links without them having to log in just to kick to somewhere else. How do we kind of accelerate them towards the path of what they need to get to? And it might not be the typical experience of walking through just a software app step by step. It's kind of spread out at different places. Then you mentioned tone and using a DNA maybe for tone. But yeah, tell me about that. What tone do you like Atticus to take? And yeah, how do you even think about the structure of your sentence within that? We take a warm-- I think we have some from talk speak towards what this actually is from a marketing standpoint. It's like the empathetic advisor, is what we call it. But it's a warm tone. We aren't non-solent. We don't joke about death. We're not insensitive. But we're also not overly empathetic towards the emotional side of it. We're not here to be your emotional counselor. We're not training that. We don't do it. And there's a time and a place to need for it. But there's also a time and a place to need for. You've got to add. There's a legal forcing function of something that needs to be done. What is it? How do you do it? How do we help you do that? We take the approach up. We're going to help with everything else so that you can focus on the emotional side of brief. loss, relationships, meaning of life, like all of that side, we're just going to take everything else off your plate and help and help advise upon how to get access to the accounts, how to distribute them, what are the right forms, here's the clerk that you need to go to, you have to show up physically, you can't do this remotely, like all of those different things, it accelerates that process. So I'd say from a tone standpoint, we're kind of matter of fact and straightforward. There is an embedded element of literacy that is underestimated with this. And like the statistics of the American adults and the average American adults who read like a certain grade level, I don't know, fifth grade level, maybe I don't know what it is. That sounds right. But it's something like that, which is kind of mind blowing. But then again, I've got a second grader who's like reading chapter books now, so maybe fifth grade, like that does make sense, probably like a first grade. So there's the literacy side of like competence, but you add financial literacy on top of it, which all of your viewers would get. Banks have talked about this for a long time. How do you democratize education towards sadness of financial terms and investing? And then fiduciary and legal stuff, which most people don't even know the word fiduciary, other than the ads that might see on CNBC talking about where a licensed fiduciary or where they have to act in your best interest. But like these words, the amount of times that I'm talking to a customer on a call and they're like, oh yeah, I think I'm the executor that I'm like, I don't want to stop you, but you're not the executor. You're the executor. But the executor is like, no, like this, but like they don't know what these words are. And so we're pretty, we're pretty like matter of fact with our voice and tone, but we also have to take the time to really explain and educate what these things are. What's an executor tricks? It's the same as an executor, but for a female, there's actually a word for it. Oh, I didn't know that. There's all these different things. Yeah. The test date and test date, like the words get super bizarre. It's old, old English. And you know, how do we kind of educate the average user towards what those things are? So that they don't feel intimidated when they show up in court or in conversations with an attorney or a financial advisor that's kind of throwing things around and make them think that they need more help than they do. So how do we kind of empower through that? And I think that the confidence and the respect and relationship we build with our customers through that and empowering them to be educated. I think circumvent any of the emotional side that we just kind of skip on. And they just kind of leapfrog right into action. And it really helps streamline the process. Yeah, I can see the case for that. And another big thread that financial institutions care a lot about is the great wealth transfer, which is always, I feel like in the sidebars of conferences and whatnot, but I guess it's going to be a broad question for you. But how do you interpret it or like, as this happens more and more for Gen X, millennials inheriting, whatever they're inheriting or not? I mean, does anything change then decades pass from your point of view or the way that you're creating your product? I think a lot changes. I think this would be an interesting conversation in three to four years even. This is beyond what I'm doing for work, but the whole world seems like it's changing to me right now. A lot happened in 2020, 2021 and it's just like accelerated from there. AI, like everything's just kind of being rewritten. All of software is being rewritten business structures. Generationsally, like what we see, you know, the talk was all millennials and millennials are set to inherit it. It's all Gen Z now. And like when you look at the typical Gen Z mindset and the way that they approach life, it's entirely different. They're creating businesses. It's all like Web 3, like just digital natives that are out there using these tools, whether it's AI, like all of the no code platforms. Everybody is tinkering with things like Windsor, Kyrsor, like creating apps and spinning things up. When you look at the great wealth transfer, a lot of the assets over the, I would say the last 20 years have shifted from the traditional assets of investments in liquid assets, which I'm going to call liquid assets. In our case, even stocks and bonds, which is not like liquid cash, like in a vestor would call it, but it's liquid in the sense that it's not a house. It's not real estate. It's not a business. But when you look at that great wealth transfer, it's not just financial assets. It's everything. And so we actually did a deep dive and worked with the Federal Reserve to come up with some data. I can share the report to you in terms of like demystifying some of that great wealth transfer because a lot of financial advisor hear that and they see it and they're like, "Oh, this money is moving. It's not just like liquid money. It's businesses." And so a lot of the conversations that we're having or that we're walking through with our clients, our customers, should I keep the business that my uncle had? Should I keep the business that my son created that's an internet business that he passed and the parent saying, "What do I do with this?" Obviously, there's crypto. There's all sorts of assets that are there. So I do think a lot changes. All of it needs advice and I think the construction around wealth management is changing as well. Obviously, it's crypto, but it's so much more than stock to bonds now. It's the diversified portfolio including retail, the amount of millennials that have gone out, bought homes, and spun up Airbnb businesses where they're managing six to eight houses and that's their living, that's their income, this is coming through. And that is a business that will get transferred. So do relatives want to keep that or not. So it's really interesting to kind of see the way that inheritors are viewing the assets and their receptiveness to retain those and look at those as wealth construction resource tools during their life. Yeah, no, that will be really curious to follow. So I'm glad you brought that up. And there is one segment in the show and I guess I've saved it for the end. But it's called, "That's what you said." And you were quoted as saying, "Financial wellness is about balance." And so the article was saying that you helped, you know, I guess it was a dinner maybe, and you were talking about how it's important to be active, seeking opportunities, making money, but also creating your life. And I thought, "Oh, that's really interesting because here you are an entrepreneur." And I do know, like, "Oh, it's really hard to balance things as an entrepreneur." So I'm just curious to learn a little bit more about your philosophy on, you know, doing your life, but also building a business. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's great. It's funny. You brought that up. I remember that dinner. It was a good steak at that dinner. I mean, I want to say all these things about creating balance. And it's probably right. I haven't figured anything out. I'm far from an expert on life. Every night you go to bed and you're like, "Man, these are the things I did wrong and how can I get better?" I haven't felt- Great way to go to sleep, Ben. I know. Well, it just happens. Yeah, I know. It just happens. I'm a tinker. I'm a builder. I'm a founder. I'm always thinking, "How do I optimize it?" I haven't found balance. I think that the days of balance, I think, died with internet. You know, I've got two young kids. I try to raise them like it's the 80s, Ben. It's like, no helmet, build a ramp, take a bike off of it, no technology. We just don't do that stuff. It's like, go swing on vines out the tree, be young, be healthy, do all those things. But I think that the balance is really about finding the things that you care about and spending the time in it and exposing your circle that's around you, whether it's friends, whether it's family, how do you expose them to it? You know, my daughter is six. But hey, this is Fickumat. This is what you actually I design is. So yeah, we can be drawing these cartoons. But let me show you how this works in Fickumat and like design these things. So I've got kids that are interested in prototyping on that or my son is eight looking at like coding and going through like a code school already. How do you kind of introduce them to these things? And you know, I'm learning at the same time. So the balance is really about how you kind of create the exposure to those things as opposed to like setting aside these hours to do this and these hours home. I think it's just kind of, it's all kind of integrated. Yeah, no, that's kind of lovely to think about that way. I'm sure chaotic at times at a lot of times. Definitely can be. Ben, for people who might want to get in touch with you, what's the best way? How should they interact to find Atticus? Yeah, you can grab me a LinkedIn, Ben Hoppe. She may email [email protected], she may text 252-917-4779. I'm out there. Not too hard to find. Yeah, give me a shout anytime. Love to talk. Ben, one last question for you, Ben. Before I ask it, anything else you wanted to bring up on trends, lessons, inheritance? There's a really cool study that we did. I'll link it to so you can send it to the audience, but. Okay, I'll put it in the show notes. Yeah, when we looked at inheritance, you know, across the industry, you can get a lot of financial advisors. You kind of start, you know, for those that are listening, not even looking. You're doing the hands like, oh, I'm excited like greedy. You know, there's a lot they get excited around like, oh, you're about to inherit money. All of a sudden, like, all of the financial advisors show up. And so we're really big towards like, there's a huge opportunity to innovate on this space. There's no fintech that's really like meld inheritance. Like I'd love to be a part of that. But it starts with providing meaningful value upstream. So how do we help? How do we build trust during the process? But one of the things that's really cool is that we did that study and we looked at the actual assets that were being inherited. And that forced us to like segment the demographics of inheritance and who was receiving it and who set to receive it, how those trends have changed. And by and large, the biggest indicator of a change in inheritance over the past 50 to 100 years was a change in education. And so we all drove down towards like, as we were looking at like, what's the average inheritance, what are the average inheritance sizes? The most common types of inheritance, like assets that are passed out. And by and large, like the coolest trend that we saw was education, to bring it all full circle. We were talking about death and his death dark and having, it has a more beautiful, there's a huge amount of inheritance that passes that people don't even really call inheritance or realize it's when generationally you pass down education. And that happens in the home, that happens in the community, obviously it happens in the school system and you know higher education of going and getting Learned up as we continue to see the world evolve like I think that the four-year college degree not that it means less and less but like the amount of Of doers who are out there at DIY Everything whether it's coding whether it's designing whether it's the plumbers the contractors like a huge push back into some of these trades and Industries that can provide huge great living scalable businesses within them. It's really cool to see how education as a society has paid into just the Bettering of the entire society and the economy family is just kind of all of it. So yeah, I mean thanks for asking that question It's it's a really cool trend. I'll send you more information on it so you can read it But I just think that like demystifying the fact that like passing down Education and really should be considered inheritance because it's such a massive indicator towards financial success financial balance across the next generations like time That's a conversation that needs to be had just as much as normalizing. Hey at some point I'm going to pass away. I don't want to leave a mess Here's everything so that when I do pass it's prepared and it's not a burden to you. I need to bring this full circle. I'm really appreciative of that and that is a beautiful thing to think about as As inheritance certainly feels much more meaningful than here's money, but last question for you. What is the image on your phone's lock screen? Stomptom finally He's looking there you go surfing is surfing. Oh, yeah, I've surfed exactly like three times and I wouldn't call any of them notable Well, Ben, thanks so much for being on money and everything has been a pleasure to talk to you about death and what to do about money like was I appreciate you having me thanks Okay, so one thing that stood out to me is that death isn't just about you know darkness It's also a celebration as evidenced by funeral playlist and two weeks from now We have pipes amulow on to talk about small business and fintech see you then (upbeat music)