Finn Bálor

>> Hello is the American Nightmare Cody Rhodes. Welcome to what do you want to talk about. We are at the lovely WWE warehouse. This what do you want to talk about is a WWE and fanatics original production. Incredibly excited about our guest today. We have wanted him on the podcast for quite some time. He is incredibly busy and there's been a lot of, oh, maybe, it could be this and maybe it's going to happen here and then I've been told he's coming and then he didn't and finally we have him. So we're not going to waste our time because this one's a very special one for a myriad of reasons and I could go on with this introduction because I have often wax poetic about what he has contributed to the overall wrestling economy and atmosphere, not just WWE, someone that of many of us owe a great debt to again we're talking about the inaugural WWE Universal Champion, a former United States Champion Intercontinental Champion, a two-time NXT Champion, all these things. The founding father, the one, don't give anybody any else any credit for the Bullet Club and currently Judgment day, staple, member, just the absolute dude, the guy, please welcome what you want to talk about, Finn Balor. Boom. [ Applause ] >> Thank you, man. >> You're here. >> Yeah. >> Finally. >> I feel like you're going to be like, all right, thank you, and then leave and get out of here. Well, I do have a heart, I don't have a better heart. >> That's a -- this is the third attempt we've tried to do this. >> That's what they say. The third time's a charm, right? >> Yeah. >> Third time's a charm. >> Look at that. The look of the Irish. >> Yeah. >> Speaking of. >> Yes. >> Right to wall-right to it. >> Yeah. >> Can you tell me, I don't know if any of this is usable information? >> Okay. >> OTT. >> Love it. >> In Ireland. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Over the top of us. >> Yeah. >> For people who don't know, it's an independent company in Ireland who have a lot of the guys who I came up in the business now work there. >> Yeah. >> I -- >> Continue. >> I know I'm just so curious. You mentioned the luckily Irish I jumped right here. Am I allowed to make a bit of a confession? >> Go ahead. >> You know my OTT confession? >> I know. You don't have to apologize to me. >> I feel like I have to apologize to a lot of other people. >> I came to OTT, I saw a giant poster, I was on an indie run where it's really all you did was see the poster, you didn't even know what you were doing half the time, saw a graphic, you saw my stablemates, it was Madenick Jackson at the time, all this big giant photo of me, so I kind of thought, oh maybe I'm the main gig here. >> Mistake, OTT had built up many of in-house stars and had a true program. >> There was, they were doing business with the local and with people they'd homegrown. >> We were just a little sizzle on the plate and that night one of your contemporaries and peers and someone that you've been a mentor for and someone who you've kind of brought to the fold, that being JD. >> McDonald was set to have his big night and I'll just say I went long. >> Was it against Walter? >> Now Gunter? >> I don't think it was against Walter. >> No, okay. >> Because I feel like Walter might have been the one to tell me, hey, don't go 18 extra minutes or whatever it is. Having people at the time, I was having them kiss the ring because it was a ring thing and they'd get all into it and it was very like you teed it up and they'd do it. So it took an excessive amount of time. Whatever public transportation runs differently in the United States than it does in Ireland. And I made mistake of going incredibly over to where when he won the championship and had his big moment, a lot of people had left. >> Because they had to leave. >> I think it was a Sunday night and last bus is like 10, 30 and people use public transport and they don't drive places, they don't. >> And I was still in the ring at like 10, 15. So I didn't know until later, there's a whole online snafu. We're not going to cover it all here but that's my brief apology to OTT which I will consistently apologize but it's a great company. >> It's a great company. And a great bunch of guys and they're doing great business and it's, I was super lucky to get the opportunity to work there. Last December, they brought me and JD over to work against two of the guys out there and it was such a fun night. One of the most memorable nights in my career. >> How was the ring? >> Small. >> Small? >> Yeah, but I didn't take any bumps so it was fine. >> Oh wow. >> What a love that, no bumps huh? >> No, it was fine. >> What a bet. >> This, this drink you have, tell me about it. >> This, this drink I have, I've been told is called Demon Blood. >> Demon Blood? >> Yes. >> Wow okay. >> Which contains Wheatley's American vodka. >> Dang, dammit, dammit. >> I haven't tasted it yet so. >> Get it, yeah, cheers. >> This is a classic American mule again brought just by our friends at Wheatley American vodka. I hear that one's a little warm in the chest. >> It's not bad actually. >> Yeah. >> I like that, yeah. >> Do we have the ingredients list on that? Probably it's a body of the screen right now. >> No, it is not a straight body. >> It's a dash of color. >> It's coming across the body of the screen. >> Was it one in the chest as described? >> No. >> Not at all. >> I'm married to a Mexican so I can deal with some heat. >> The heat, hey? >> Yeah. >> I want to talk about that. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Where did you guys meet? >> We met. Actually we met in San Jose. >> Yeah. >> It was my first WrestleMania. She was working for Fox. I was doing like one of those media mornings. >> Yeah. >> And she interviewed me. We just kind of like cross paths. That was it. >> Okay. >> And then we kind of like kept and touched like once every six months by DMs or whatever. >> Yeah. >> Nice to see you or whatever. And then about six years later. >> No, it was a couple of years, maybe four or five years later. >> I said, you know what? There's something about this girl. I want to ask her out. So I asked her out. Well, I didn't ask her out. I asked her for a number because we're a DM. So I asked her for a number. >> Yeah. >> You got to get it out of the DMs. Yeah. >> And she said no. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. >> In a story. >> She said no. >> In a story. >> There it is. >> Oh man. >> No. >> Okay. >> All right. >> Wow. >> But we kept DMs. Like for like another month or two. And then I finally like said, hey, come on, give me the number. Give me the digits. >> Yeah. >> We're going to take this to the next level. And yeah, we never look back. That was it. >> Did you ever get an answer? Was there a gamesmanship in this saying? >> She just said, like, I live in Mexico. You live in America. >> Yeah. >> You're a wrestler. I work in TV. It's never going to work. >> Oh, she just gave up on it before. >> Yeah. >> Before she just started. >> Yeah, it was just too much of a stretch of an imagination. >> Oh my gosh. >> Yeah. >> And how long have you been together? >> Does she love what you do? Or is she? >> She appreciates what I do. She used to love it more when she wasn't with me. >> Yeah. >> Now she sees the risks and the injuries and the effect that has on me and she doesn't like it as much. But I think that's important, too, because like if you have someone at home who's like a super fan, then I'm always fan, right? >> Yeah. >> And you start to like feed your own ego and then you just like lose the run of yourself. So I think it's super important to have someone at home that helps keep you grounded. >> Yeah. >> And when I go home, my home is home. >> Well, home really now is like the airplane and the Marriott because like we're on the road so much. >> Yeah. >> I live in Miami. Miami doesn't feel like home. Ireland now when I go home, we're just home home and all my family are there. I've kind of been gone so long, yeah, don't really relate to the environment there anymore. And like what I picture as home is like Ireland 20 years ago. >> Wow. >> Ireland's like evolved so much and like changed in those years. And like it'll always be home, but I don't, don't sometimes feel at home there. But maybe just because I'm dipping in and out because you know, money in there for four or five days at a time. >> It's not the greatest term, but the carnival aspect. Like what we do kind of makes makes us a carny in a way where like everyone else has a home life. >> Yeah. >> And we don't often or sometimes we have seasons up at where we do and then you get back into this and you get going full till. >> Yeah. >> I asked in the sense of if she likes it, just as I've gotten older, I don't bring to my home. I don't bring it back home anymore. Which is wild because I feel like everything career wise, it's just, it's such a wonderful season for WWE, everything's happening. But a lot of times I'm asked, oh, how was it? And it's like old man style, it was good. Like it's, there's so much behind the, it was good, yeah, so much there. But I'd rather it not enter the space than the, because then you never escape it. You know, then you're always into saying when it's, Liberty's four and we have stairs in our house. And that's okay, that's, that's like my biggest challenge is seeing those stairs. Because I mean, anyone who has children knows that all they do is once you sit down, you have to get back up. There's a reason you have to get back up. And that's probably the most I'll ever need pre-workout in my life is when I'm in my home. Like, because you know, you don't want to be that, like you, you want to be Papa or dad who's on. None of the jobs, no big deal, I'm good, you know, but yeah, it's a, it's a wacky world. We live in. Then you've always loved it, right? I've always loved it. Yes, it was a kid, yeah. Pretty much like one of my earliest memories as a kid was watching World of Sport Wrestling with my dad and my grandfather, and my dad, my grandfather was into the wrestling, but my dad wasn't into the wrestling, but at the time, wrestling was more popular than football, which we call soccer. Yeah. So they would show the wrestling on a Saturday afternoon, and at the bottom of the screen it would flash up, like the football results. The scores, yeah. So my dad was watching it for the football and my grandos was watching it for the wrestling, like Big Daddy. Yeah. Sorry. Giant Haystacks, Big Daddy, Kenon Nagasaki, all those guys. That was like early memories. And then, like, kind of, transition into WWE, when Sky TV came to Ireland, and then that was like, Ultimate Warrior, Hogan, Coco B, where I was one of my favorites. It's such a departure from Big Daddy. I know. You're talking Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks, anyone who's not seen it, it's very short. But I'm not looking at the in-ring work as much as the crowd, the crowd are going bananas. They believed. Yeah. And I think that's a pretty big deal always with talking to me about Big Daddy. But I never saw it. And the one tour overseas, I just decided to start watching the Big Daddy stuff. And it blew me away. It was so vastly different from Croquet or WWE or WWE at the time. But again, I'm not watching for, I'm not making fun of it at all, because look at these people. They are invested in this. Yeah. That's such a, when you think world of sports, so I don't know if you know this, I'm kind of a world of sport hater. But I'll make my admission to Y. Yeah. All around the country, I have one, I know where you're going with this. And I wrestled folk style wrestling and freestyle, whatever you call, Olympic style wrestling as a kid. That's what I considered, I suppose, real wrestling. But then when you go to a wrestling school, chain wrestling is real wrestling. And this is the whole, like, hip, and you're doing, you know, like really great stuff, like Davey Boy style, I'm using Davey Boy as an example or like dynamite and all the things you get really impressive stuff. And I kind of always frown, like that, are you emulating, grappling, are we emulating it? But really, internally, my full admission is that I just wasn't able to pull it off. So that's why I'm kind of a hater for the world of sports style of the whole, you know, not just under the legs and some of the fun spots they did. They're very hard to pull off, these sequences. I think they're very hard to pull off convincingly. Yeah. Like, a lot of it is emulated now, but really, really badly. Yeah. And that is where it looks bad. So I think it's funny you say this, this is such a deep cut from a wrestler perspective but you might, you might agree. Chain wrestling done bad is awful, terrible. I think chain wrestling and Mr. Perfect Bret Hart that kicks on the back of the leg are the two most, I've seen tried to be redone spots in all of wrestling, never to the same effect. I know that's a very specific match, but I see it a lot with chain wrestling where it's like, they hand up in the whole that moment and it's not giving me, it's not giving me what I used to see with it, if that makes any sense. I don't, maybe it's because it's not, maybe because folks don't know what you're doing in terms of what are you simulating, right? I feel like a lot of matches people see, they see like the pay-per-view match or the blow-off match and there's been like a whole story arc up to that where they've done all these different sequences and edited them and like, tweaked them and changed them and it makes sense because of the story. But people are emulating just the blow-off match, right? So they haven't told the backstory. Sure. So it doesn't really make sense. Well, it's a copy of a copy, in a way, a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy. Because most people are probably copying someone who copied it from someone in the 70s, who copied it from someone in the 50s, who knows. You are grown-up, favorite wrestler, grown-up, like super young, would have been ultimate warrior, transitioned into Shawn Michaels, transitioned into Shawn Walden. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So we just added this. Ben Brown, the archivist. This is WrestleMania 7, the trench from warrior and warrior match and then Liz comes in the ring after. Also, we were discussing why he puts the trench coat on after the match. We don't know. Our theory was that maybe he thought they weren't going to get it back to him. You know, sometimes our stuff goes missing or like, got auctioned off or whatever. So he puts it on to run out. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Or in my case, be with someone. All my team in costumes. I've got auctioned off. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. You got to disappear. You got to keep eyes on that stuff. Otherwise, it's gone. You know, some people have sent boots. I remember to like, for exhibits and only one boot came back. There's a, you know, there's a trading world for it all, yeah. This message is sponsored by Raycon. Now that the holidays are over, it's the perfect time to upgrade your gear for the new year. Raycon's essential, open ear buds are a game changer for workouts. They don't block out everything like traditional ear buds. So I can still hear what's going on around me while running, lifting or walking outside. The sound quality is just as good as the more expensive brands. And they have eight hours of play time and 36 hours of battery with the charging case. I charge them maybe once a week. Right now, Raycon is ringing in the new year with a sale. So it's the perfect time to grab them. And if you don't like them, they have a 30 day guarantee. I've been using my Raycon's pretty much every day since I got them, whether I'm at the gym, running errands, hanging at home or on the road. They're the ones I actually reach for over my other ear buds because I can still hear what's going on around me without sacrificing sound quality. Honestly, they've just become part of my daily routine. The essential, open ear buds are here to help you crush your new year's goals. Go to buyraycon.com/roadsopen to get 20% off sight wide. Thanks, Raycon, for sponsoring. In behind you, over your shoulder is Diminito. Oh, yeah. There he is. Diminito. That's a funny story. Tell me. So I got told I was working against Iguana in AAA. And like, it's the first time I'd worked against someone who I wasn't familiar with in a long time. Yeah. And like, obviously, like when you're in the Indies or you're in Japan, you kind of like research your opponents and you come up with some ideas beforehand. But WWE is pretty much like you see everyone all the time, you kind of know all their stuff. Yeah. So just the first time that I hadn't like known someone that I was stepping into ring with, I said, oh, I better do a little research like I used to. So. What a pro. Yeah. So I went on YouTube and it was 20 past four in the afternoon. Oh, I got you. Yeah. And I typed in Iguana or Mystery Guana. The first match that came up was Mystery Guana against Santino. Oh my God. Oh my God. Cobra versus Iguana. Cobra versus Iguana. Oh my gosh. And I said, I need something like that. Yeah. And then both, like a lightning bolt, you hit me. I need a demon puppet. Yeah. Yeah. How are you going to, how do you top in Iguana? Demon puppet. Demon puppet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that that's the match that came up. During that time of the day, I loved that that's what came up. Also, even if it wasn't that that's the right match to be washing because the psychology of that weapon slash exciting partner, however you'd refer to your contemporary, your puppet, that moment, Santino was great about when the Cobra came out or when the other Cobra came out. There's like a Cobra. Then he had another one stuffed in there that, oh my gosh. He used to do the spot. You would have appreciated it. It was Aaron Anderson's favorite spot of the night. Santino would do a master lock challenge and he'd get put in the master lock. That was it. He'd sit in the chair, but in the master lock and he'd start shaking and he'd start going in the entire crowd of these live events with start rally behind him and they would do one side and he'd come up. They'd get to the other side. They're working all four sides. He'd finally get to back to square one and it looks like he's about to break it and he just passed right out. And that was their legit live event and it was, I saw it every night and still thought like he's going to get it. It's going to happen. And then he just swung over in his chair and they rang the bell. Just, you know it's crazy about him and I don't know if you have this experience. I bet you do, especially isn't it funny sometimes the shootery types, Santino is this judo master. Yeah. I was just going to say, well, that comes with confidence, right? Right. Yeah, definitely. And then they get here and his bit is all comedy. It's a, it's a strange, a strange thing to be someone else like that too, right? Well, I mean, like if you look at doing the original doing, there's all these guys who were just absolute like headhunters and was a guy in world of sport going back to world of sport. Yeah. Less torture. I'm pretty sure he was a shoe. Yeah. Yeah, you had to kind of be. Yeah. Yeah. Do you consider yourself a shooter hooker? Any of these things? You've got gravity experience. You want to know a story? Yeah. I think I've told actually go like about the bullet club and where the name came from. Yeah. The GIT. Yes. So I was a young boy in New Japan. Yeah. And before the shows, we would all like warm up in a ring. And the young boys would like be made to squats and push-ups and stuff. And then we'd get in the ring with the senior wrestlers and we'd be stretched, which would be like shot on basically and think of and we noticed Suzuki was in the ring with me. He was a legitimate grappler. Yeah. And I caught him with an arm bar, and he goes, "Oh, David, you're a real shooter." And then Tiger Hitori, who you know, kind of heard that. And every day, "Hey, David, you're the real shooter. You're the real shooter." So this was going on in the locker room for about a year. Wow. You never hear a shooter. And he'd just do it like that shooter. And when the time came, about a year later, the office came to him and said, "Hey, we want to turn you heel. We want to put you in a fallay. We need to get you guys a group." So then they decided to put in Karl Anderson and Tama. Oh, yeah. I was trying to think, what ties us all together. And at the time, fallay was using the hand grenade finish, similar to solo. And then, and under the machine gun, and I was the real shooter. So it's like, "Wat like links us all together." Yeah. And it was bullet club. I mean, you said in the simplest of ways, but it was bullet club changes the entire business. Like, there's very few people who ever sit on this awesome show, have these drinks. Well, hopefully, there's more, but there's very few cheers. Who you can literally tell changed our entire industry with a thing that they contributed. I feel like that's the greatest title of all, sometimes, is I know I always do this to you. And I did it in the ring live in Belfast, and I'll continue to do it to you. You don't know actually when you first came back to WWE as well, because I went on your bus to welcome you back, give you a hug, and you just spotted out straight away. Because I was blown away. Because not many people are as honest as you, and not many people like tell how they really feel. You know, a lot of people like shut down and kind of like try and put on this macho image. Yeah. But you don't. I mean, how could I? I benefited so much so that they call me back that I benefited from a thing you created. And I got to be part of, even though I'm not the most glamorous part of it. I got to be part of it for just a short moment in time. Look at the list of people who have been part of the Bullet Club. And then, of course, we were talking about it in here and not everyone knows, especially if it been a WWE bubble. I don't want to be the one. And I know I jokingly say this all, but you're owed so much money by so many other wrestlers. You legit. And I know it's not- I know it's not. I know you're always like, no, no, but I mean, if you were to today with all these wonderful people in the TKO bubble who bring up these graphs of ratings, relevancy, and revenue, and these really great metrics, if you were to really backlog and go all the way to when the shirt started bringing back to Sweden in a different way, where it wasn't just a nostalgic way. And becoming this entity, it's so hard to get anything rolling outside of here. And it's even harder to get things rolling outside of here consistently, where it's must see, have to see it. I mean, you've heard this Hot Topic story a thousand times, right? And head president of Hot Topic comes to WrestleMania, sees the Bullet Club shirts everywhere, and keeps asking, hey, one of the Bullet Club guys coming out and they had to explain, no, that's not, it's another company. It was started by, he's actually here now. It's a whole thing. But then he thought, well, I still want the shirt. The only reason that shirt ever makes it to shelves is because you had built it with pretty much just not luck, full hard work, and what you guys were doing, making the whole world, and the rest of things all about turning heads. How long can you turn someone's head? How long can you gravitate their attention? I remember, my dad's not the greatest commentator, but I remember one time, he said something about Hogan. When Hogan was in the ring, and I never forgot it because I could tell he was just talking from a completely internal perspective, but it worked for the commentary. He said, he's here at a Russell's thing, it's Stargate. He says, no one has captured the imagination of the audience, like that man or this long in the history of the business. And I thought, that's really what we do. How long do we have them? And a lot of times we think we still have them, and nope, it's over. That's something you created that still is capturing their imagination, and it's your creation. But I think that's the payment, right? Because I was in NXT about eight months, and I get a call from New Japan, I was like, hey, David, we got some money for you. We got to figure it out. Hey, David Chan, we got royalty check for you, man. I'm like, wow, we got a royalty check for New Japan, yeah. I said, Tiger, thank you so much, I watched my dude, and he goes, like, $118, I'm like, $180. >> No. >> He goes, yeah, man, we need your bank details. I said, Tiger, give it to charity. >> Yeah, I did it, I did it, like, good, yeah. So I feel like the payoff with, like, for the club was not, for me, at least was not financial. Like, I feel like it was way more valuable than any $1 amount that I could have been given from, like, just what it's given to the business. >> Yeah. Well, I can't thank you enough. I can't, and I stand by the fact that you're- >> At the same point, I need to also thank Carl Anderson, Gallows, Fale, Tama, the Paul- >> Would you think Gallows? Would you include Gallows in there? >> You got to, right? >> Yeah, 100%. >> Ever tell you about- >> Yeah, I can't speak highly enough of Gallows. >> He's so funny. >> And I can't express how much the locker room misses him. >> So we don't talk, Miguel's and I will, like, not talk for six months, and I'll see him, he'll come back or something, and it's right back. >> Oh, yeah. >> And I didn't know Carl that well, and so, like, they just make such a good team, such a good unit. Anyway, so Gallows had an Indian Georgia called Bulletproof, again, he's still on the bullet train, right? >> Yeah. >> And I kid you like that. >> I kid you not. I wrestled, I forget who I wrestled. We did the main event. It was a small indie, but we did pretty well for a Georgia Independent, and then no joke, Gallows, as we're setting down, literally slapping hands and the show's over saying, "Goodnight, Gallows pulled in. I was just going to sound terrible, but I think it's okay." With a truck, and he had in the back of it all of his WWE action figures. And he put them on the merch table and offered, like, a basically a half off. Hey, get these. It was this last little minute, like, the 50-50 rally. This last little carnival, like, element, and I mean, people were eating it up. >> Yeah. >> It was, and I didn't think I'd see him. >> I just, he was doing this and asked me to be part of it, and he's always got an angle, always moving. I think people like him in the business, when they're not around, we will really miss them. You know, because as time goes on, it gets really corporate. >> Right. >> And you know, man, I need a guy telling somebody he's going to backdrop him while he's but naked, making him uncomfortable, you know, I need that moment. >> Yeah, he's a, he's a dying breed. >> Yeah. >> For sure. Like, I'm trying to think, I'm like, who else is like that, right? There's not many. >> No. >> And that's not just Japan, America, and Internet. He's very specific to that style of wrestler, and I don't, I mean, yeah, I don't, I haven't been like, on the independency in for like 10 years, so like, I maybe there's guys out there, but I don't know. >> All right. The next question is part of a segment we call game plan fueled by game day mince health, because let's be honest, showing up at your best takes work. So let me ask you, let me ask you, what is your plan for staying sharp? Could be physical, could be mental, could be family stuff? Whatever it is, how do you stay in the zone and keep pushing even when life's stacked against you? >> I'm a routine guy, and I like to do the same things every day, no matter what day it is, so pretty much every day, same breakfast, same lunch, same dinner, same routine. And that's slightly different if I'm on the road or if I'm at home. But most importantly, is eat whole foods. So my just real foods, eggs, meat, chicken, nuts, abacados, yoghurt, berries, that's it. A little bit of caffeine in the morning, and try and spend some time in nature, be it in the mountains, in the woods or in the ocean. >> That's exactly why game days out here, helping guys optimize their energy, focus, and longevity. You don't have to slow down. You just need the right game plan. Check out game day mince health dot com slash Cody to learn more. That's a great question in terms of from now all the international success, WWE doing international shows left and right, international is no longer a secret. It's no longer the thing we go over and oh my gosh, just crowds are amazing, but you really don't know. Now, big PLEs are being hosted. Any independent or young up and coming guys that you've seen who are coming from Ireland, from the United Kingdom, is there anyone that's that you think so on the level that will make it over? That can't think of his name off to top of my head, and I feel embarrassed because I worked him out of TT. He's a young kid. >> Bad stuff. >> Bad stuff. >> I know his father, Colin Nelligan, so this is a good story so when I was running independent shows in Ireland, like back in 2002, Colin Nelligan, this kid's father was like one of the guys who had helped me out, like taking tickets or setting up the lights or whatever. And his infant kid was like two years old and he would bring him to the shows, and there's a picture I think of me in the ring with Jordan, JD McDonough, sitting ringside, and then behind him, Colin Nelligan, holding his son, who I'd end wrestled at OTT, like a couple weeks ago, or months ago, with Jordan. So it's more generational. >> Does he have the chops or was it more just seeing the love in Ireland? Like his somebody? >> No, he has the chops. >> He has the chops. >> Yeah. >> He was super young. He was like 19/20/21, and like listened, like didn't get stressed when I didn't like call a bunch of stuff beforehand, and yeah, he was great. >> Oh man. >> Yeah, but I feel like the level in OTT is really like reason, yeah. >> It's a word. Even with my big snafu over that, what I didn't realize is the level of quality product. You know, sometimes the independence you got the mom and pops, where it's really about, hey, we got the guests, you do the mom and pop stuff, give them a little bit of what they had seen on TV previously, it's more that. And then other times, you have something that's in-house, it's built, and you're really there to just kind of push it over the edge a little bit, and that's it, and OTT is also a great production ahead of their time, in terms of production. >> When NXT UK started, which was a huge thing at the time for British and European wrestling, I feel like it kind of like took all the talents, and it starved all the indies, and it took a long time for them to rebuild. >> The refresh tab. And for a lot of them, it hasn't even happened yet, because there's no one to learn from or look up to, the guys Tyler and Pete and everyone else who came to WWE, now the younger kids don't have anyone to learn from. So I feel like there was probably a huge negative effect on the gulf of talent that WWE took out of that, I guess, territory, but slowly it's starting to rebuild. >> I mean, we've seen that domestically in the States with everything that's popped up, with other places to wrestle, and things of that nature, it strips away. And then there's a negative byproduct to it, but then the positive byproduct is these 19, 18, 19 year old, all of a sudden they're 22, they've grown, and they've had to do it very much on their own, and they've got a set of skills, so it always kind of, I hope, refreshes itself, that's in replenishes, otherwise we have nowhere to look when we need it the most. >> Big news, WWE in sports fans, the world's number one sports fan festival, fanatics Fest, is making its return to New York City. Fanatics is bringing you closer to the league's teams, superstars, and athletes you love across four action-packed days in July. Meet your favorite WWE superstars, get your hands on exclusive merch, catch live podcasts, and interact with the biggest names in sports. Tickets are on sale now, and fans of the podcast can use code Cody10 at checkout for 10% discount. Visit fanaticsfest.com to get your tickets today. I want to ask because I talked about the bullet club, and we've already talked about demonito, but we didn't really hit the demon, and I feel like that's another area that's just incredibly, there's you doing body paint in New Japan, and what would Prince be doing, what would you be doing that people would, I want to see it. That's going to be cool. I see it. And then there's another layer where you, I don't want to use the word market, but you market it, and it becomes in the character itself with the demon. These are also bullet club level contracts. This is just, my favorite thing about having a conversation with you today is to really, if you're able to layer the amount of stuff you've done. It's, and you're not done, my gosh, you're not close to done. That's some summer slow learners, and our summer rocket to the moon, and that's it. This is really a body of work. That was something that the person who trained me was always about, hey, when my body of work is put up against his body of work, look at all these points. As far as the demon is considered, do you have a favorite moment with WWE and the demon? That's a touchy subject for me. Let's go back to the concept. Weeking, right? Yeah. So I'd recently turned heel in New Japan, and I was like really fighting an uphill battle, because I'd been babyface for so long, squeaky clean, white meat, babyface, and I'd recently turn heel, and I was now against like, you know, shining lights, Ibushi, you know, the up-and-coming, like, white meat, babyface, and Ibushi, and he's like, where's white gear, and we're in the Tokyo Dome, for whatever, 45,000 people, or something like that. And I'm thinking like, how can I make this look different, and I want to take everything away from the fans that they physically recognize me for? Okay. Right? So the first idea was, oh, what if I wear like a body suit? I thought, I don't know, like, or where's a body suit. So I'm like, I'm kind of thinking about like the Tokyo Dome and how small the ring is in that giant arena, and I'm thinking about like, the people in the back, what are they going to see? I thought, like, wouldn't it be cool if it was like, Ibushi wrestling against a shadow, right? And that was like, my original concept was like, I was just going to be head to toe black, completely black. Yeah. And so for the people in the back, it would look like he was wrestling against a shadow. And that kind of slowly developed into the demon, like in the weeks leading up to the dom show where we'd done it first. And side note, Carl Anderson, who was in Japan with me at the time, I told him the idea. And he just, everyone's going to laugh at you, bro. You got to look stupid. I'll try it. I'll try it. Okay. And I trusted him, bro. But, you know, I said, I'll just try it, anyway, it's worth a shot. And I don't it took off, and it was cool. But going back to the question, the favorite moment, I'm not sure if I have a favorite moment, because once I came to WWE, it kind of got modeled up a little bit, and it had to be like a reason for why the demon appeared. And it all had to be storyline based and advertised. And in my mind, it was always just a cool entrance. And it was something that like, that like changed me into like, you know, Braveheart puts on the battle paint, and he goes to war. And that's the way it was for me, but in WWE, it had to be, well, what made him turn into the demon. He had to get beat up, but beat down and push to the limit to then turn into this monster. So then it became the point where Finn wasn't good enough, only the demon could win. So then like, Finn was lesser than the demon, where they're supposed to be the same, right? So that was one issue I had with it. The other issue I had with it was, it was always advertised, which I like it to be a surprise, like, oh shit, the demon's here, like, you know, and it just comes out and kicks ass. But a favorite moment would probably be take over UK, but the hat, the hat. And yeah, yeah, so it was like the Jack the Ripper inspired, like London. Not necessarily for the paint and the design, but the way the truck shot that entrance, like the way I go from like silhouette with like the London background on the screens into the light and where like, then it reveals the demon with the hat. And then the fact that like my family and friends were all like there because of the shows in London, it was like, that was a special night. And it was returning to London, I thought I'd kind of left that scene and like going back there with NXT, like I think it was the champion defending the title. So it was pretty cool. That was a cool night. Are you ready to hold WWE history in the palm of your hand? Topps is bringing you closer to the action than ever before with WWE Topps now, highlighting the biggest matches in milestones from WWE shows and PLEs throughout the year. Topps now is enhancing the fan experience by connecting collectors to the superstars and spectacles that ignite their passion. Featuring stunning event-exclusive photography, each card is made for the moment. And for some lucky collectors, that moment could become the pull of a lifetime, along with serial numbered parallels. Some Topps now releases offer a chance at rare short prints, superstar autographs, and even pieces of the mat, gear, or other items used during the featured match. So which moment will you collect? 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An old school wrestler perspective, like I think a lot about when I wear the mask, Jason Baker who makes these masks, he's super talented, hate when he makes other people mask and doesn't tell me, but hate it, legit. But I always think about a lot of times, like I think about my dad and I think about other old-timers like, no, don't cover your face, like that, and I don't necessarily just subscribe to the philosophy because sometimes it's like, no, that's cool, yeah, it's cool, I'm doing this cool thing, right? But I wonder if that's something because it feels like maybe the block is filled in terms of, I totally get all those, it being advertised, it's supposed to be a surprise, but I don't know, I just was curious that anyone ever tell you you didn't need it. I don't think I need it, and that's probably why I was so resistant to doing it for a long time, because like the way it was kind of been booked and presented by the company, I felt it just wasn't effective, right, or as effective as it could have been. And then I think there was some sort of confusion about like, why is he the demon, some knights and fan the other knights, and then maybe some people were getting let down when I'm not the demon and stuff like that, so I would love to go back to doing it. What I would love to have more creative control, and I feel like I lost a lot of that, especially when I came to the main roster. I think it was done really effectively in NXT, when I came to the main roster, it wasn't done as well for multitude of reasons, but in the future, I would love to get back to doing it. I'll give you a moment of vulnerability on my half that I thought I'm not going to tell on this. He'll think this is, but I'm going to tell you, all right. I read before I left when I was doing Sardas, I wrote Hunter like a four-page email, which you know how that goes. Anytime it's more than a page, it's probably already that an issue, that's a lot for someone to look at and sit down and give their time over. I really wanted to wrestle the demon as Sardas, because Sardas had no legitimacy. It was all comedy, but there was one match or one moment away from providing him some credibility, even an losing effort. And I remember I wrote this whole email about it, and I don't know what happened to me. I wouldn't have read the email, but it went into a spine, probably. Who knows? Who knows? I've never seen it, but it speaks to not just the demon itself, but also NXT Black and gold, and NXT that entire NXT era is largely, actually, I was going to bring this person up. So much of it is your signing on and the name change, everything, all that first night you coming in and committing to it. I was shocked, I was, I was genuinely shocked because he is such a prickly individual to find out that you and Kevin were tight. And he texted me while we were talking. So this is the only, I wasn't going to look at my phone and be rude. I asked him, was there a question you, I think he asked us a sincere question, which now I'm, you ready for a Kevin Owens question? Yeah, I hope I don't get emotional though, because I do love Kevin. Oh, buddy, this is a, I wasn't ready. I thought he'd send a joke in, like, you know, you know how like he says some shit every day. And then it's like, he'll say something that's like, yeah, you can feel his mood. This is from Kevin Owens who is now the co-host of what you want to talk about just with this question alone. Ask him if he realizes just so much he has done for me since we met by being himself and how important he has been to me for the last 10 years and how much I value his friendship. He goes on. He is the epitome of, I take a fatal bullet to the head for the guy any day of the week in my book. Not just for him, I do it for his whole family, the greatest crew of people ever. What a great question from Kevin. Was that a question or something? It's just a statement, meets a question. How he, his actual question was, if you, if you realize how much you've done for him? I don't think Kevin realizes how much he's done for me, right? Because then, although like me and Kevin have had very similar backgrounds and like kind of like journeys to WWE, we'd actually only met each other once in passing at an indie show in London. And it was like about four months before we started in NXT. And that was kind of the only reason why we even like shook hands and like said, oh hey man, nice to meet you. But we started in NXT together. And we're two guys coming from like similar like career parts, but like different places. But we're now in a new company, in a new country, trying to learn a new style. And kind of also been like tested a little bit, right? Because the performance and the day test you. Because we went from like him, like main event in ROH, to me, our main event in New Japan, to now being in a warehouse, doing like forward rolls, with like rookies. Hip toss, club, like drop down, knee frog, drop down, knee frog, drop down, knee frog. And like it's a test, right? And if you shut up and pass the test, you'll be fine. That's really a good advice for people who need to hear right now. Yeah, yeah, everything's a test in this business. Like you don't have to succeed, you just have to try, right? You just have to give it everything. And if you go to failure, the coaches will be happy, right? Everything in the test, yeah. So me and Kevin like kind of like bonded really strongly over like the common obstacles that we were having to overcome together, like in this new life that we're having. Yeah. In NXT and WWE. And yeah, I know like we're very probably different. Yeah, I couldn't believe it. Like personally, in every way, like the way we wrestle is different. Yeah. Like, you know, our lifestyles are different, but, you know, sometimes obstacles attract. And like me and Kevin, I can honestly say he's one of my favorite people and best friends in the whole world. This question I think has set off, I think I'm now going to have, I want Kevin to send in a question forever. I don't think there'll be a nearest sincere with you, but I said that just in that I wanted to make sure I was like, I want to cover all my bases for him and I asked him that and I thought, I wonder, he'll probably just send in a Kevin like message, no? That was quite special. I love the folks at Wheatley. We like to say we're the American Dream Team, so I often ask people, who's your American Dream Team? Survivor Series Team, zombie apocalypse, who you're taking with you, whatever, 70 people, four people, animals, whoever is with you, who's your rider, die, who's, Survivor Series is a good way to break it up in numbers, but who's coming with you? Who's on your team? JD McDonald. Love it. Kevin Owens. Of course. Gohos. Sami Zayn. Yeah. Chad Gable. No. Yes. Okay. Get in buddies. Okay. Got to have them. Yeah. Adrian Neville. Okay. That's a solid crew. No one is beating that team. I'll put my pops in there. There you go. Yeah. No one's beating this team. No. How old are your pops? Like 74 or 75? In a fight like this, he doesn't have to get up because I'll just keep money open. Yeah. Like he doesn't have to do that. I'll get all the hard work. Yeah. But also Chad Gable. Like the shooter. Yeah. You know Chad? Yeah. I said this the other day and I hope Chad being a little shorter even though he's jacked of the gills. Yeah. Always suggest stuff that's like, hmm, I wonder if I'm like a bit too big for that. But because it's Chad, I'm like, nah, we'll do it. I'm going back to the shooter stuff. Yeah. Shorty G. Shorty G. Completely opening to like like, like, showing his eyes. Yeah. You know. That guy's incredibly talented. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there's something on the hill for him that I hope he keeps everything. He seems always gunned for it and hungry for it. Just something because he's he's special. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He may be one of my favorite matches that I've had since I came back here. So the matches like the live of the matches which we had plenty, those are those are those are always going to be the most fun. But then the TV matches are like hard hitting a short sweet who knows what they may be. There was a lot of content and he was one that I got like an incredible, incredible moment out of him that night. So yeah, shout out to him. That team's cable. Yeah. That team's pretty no one's beating that team though. There's no one on the sea. You could get on the other team. It could be like Brock Roman Seth. You. I'm going to be honest. I don't think Logan Paul Cena. OLP. You're probably going to win. I'm sure LP was wearing a bulletproof vest in the ring last night. And I just, I wasn't sure. Do you know what it was in a bulletproof vest? It was a New York market scary to him or something. What the? Well, two things I wanted to flash back to because you said Sean Woltman. You said Xbox. So you know how you did the jumping back kick. I just wanted to tell you this is this was my experience. You watch wrestling. You see how someone does it. This was something to happen to me during my brief time in New Japan, but it was a good lesson is the speed and fluency of things can be a little different. And our friend Kenny Omega does that same kick. He does it a little differently though. And I thought it would be a kind of Sean Woltman style jump up and it like pops and then you fall, not like drives through. Yeah. He kind of goes. Yeah. He's wrestling him and Koto a bouchie and brother it went through my head and it's not his fault. It's my fault. But it explains a lot. It's the first time I got like a boxer cut and I'm just bleeding profusely and I thought this was like every time you see Sean Woltman do it. It's this. Yeah. It's not that. I don't know. And I kept. You know, hit me with that Xbox. Hit me with that Xbox. And now anytime somebody's like, you know, it was spinning back. I don't know. Is it? Is it that or is it something else? Like driving through was I had no clue it was coming like that. But yeah, that was my, when you mention him because Brian Anderson is another person who talks about him all the time, in terms of being one of the most underrated, insanely great this being Sean Woltman valuable wrestlers for someone to watch. Yeah. For me, SummerSlam 95, Hakuushi versus 1, 2, 3 kid was one of the matches that I've watched unrepeat the most of my childhood and like Sean made me, like Sean Woltman made me, was the first person that kind of made me believe, oh, maybe I can do this because he was like the smaller guy and he's, he's tall. But in that generation, he's six to I think. But like. Yeah, right, right. But like in that generation, they were all like six, seven, six, eight. So he'd like look much smaller and I thought like, oh, maybe I can do it. Yeah. And he made me like kind of have that belief that, oh, it's not impossible. Yeah. You know, and then he obviously beat Razer and all that stuff and it's like, oh, shit. Yeah. Yeah, he's, I feel like anyone, if you're just somebody who's, there's all the library books are there now for you to go back and watch things like you're talking to me. He's psychologically, yeah, even it's hilarious. He was tall guy, but he was small in that era because they're really, you know, I don't want to be crude. They're, they're like dinosaurs, the size of these men. When I see my own brother or like Billy gun, who, who are you? Like y'all, y'all were living civilian like, yeah, oh, my, just, just like what a stud. And this was something we saw, I saw at least some of my time away on the Indies being a big guy is hard now because what do you do, you're either champion or you're, you know, like someone's heater. So it is, there's not that middle ground anymore. I also think it's funny how the big guys now are like six, one, three, four pounds. Yeah. Yeah. Like I, I've always considered myself a light heavyweight. I'm a big boy here now. Oh, yeah. I'm a big boy. How do you use the super rated underrated big guy? Who? Not blue. Oh my gosh. And he didn't even look like a big guy in that, at that time. He's one that, you know, when you find yourself like, you see him match it, somebody's like, oh, that was really good. And then three months later, there's another match. Yeah. He's somebody that is extremely underrated. And I feel like with what him and Sean are doing down there now, I definitely, he definitely doesn't, and he's a big part of your, you know, someone who was there for you when you came before to, and well, therefore you in Japan and carried it forward all the way. He's another person, contributions wise, you know, immense. We were talking about last chapters and then I was doing, you know what, this is a thing when people ask me for a wrestling Mount Rushmore, I tell a different one each time. So that somebody finally is like, this guy just makes this shit up. He's not, he's not committing to this. But the last time I talked about it with somebody, I said, here's a last chapter about Rushmore. Here's four wrestlers who their last chapter was absurd. They gave something and you didn't even realize. He's somebody that this was his life's work. Yeah. Like anytime you hear anybody that encounters him or has a moment, really, really special. I don't know if you want to speak to that, but that guy's just that. Yeah. Like, going back like 24 years old, new boy, new young boy in New Japan, you know, sit at the front of the bus and like, I know, like, what was his, he was doing the first gimmick he'd done in WWE was like Prince Albert, Prince Albert, all these tattoos and training. Yeah. And I was like, oh my god, let's say train in the back of the bus. I'm a shit. I better behave, you know. Like all the Japanese boys are behind me and he's right down the back of the bus. I'm like sitting up at the front of the bus. Is that? Hey kid. I'm like, is he talking to me? Hey, Irish kid. I'm like, yes sir, yeah. Come back here. I'm like straight away, like he's super welcome and oh yeah, like took me out for dinner, like helped me get, like, acclimatized to working in Japan, living in Japan, how to deal with the office over there, how to deal with the boys over there. Yeah. And then, like, fast forward, like, eight years, when I moved to NXT, I had to find a place to live because I'm not from America. So in the period, the transition period I'm looking for a place to live, I actually lived with Matt Blum and his family for three months. So to Matt and Farah, I would like to always say thank you because for me there, like my American family. So Matt may be the one wrestler who doesn't owe you money. Well, there's other wrestlers. No, I owe him money. Yeah. I owe Matt Blum a lot. Okay. Oh my gosh. For shout outs. Yeah, cheers to Matt Blum for sure. It's multiple times he's been mentioned and it's important to note too that he's down there developing people now, developing individuals who are coming. Yeah. And actually little known fact and I want to give him also another shout out because my second run in NXT, which I'm very proud of, which I consider probably some of my best in-ring work in my career. Okay. And the producer that I worked with on every match was Matt Blum. Yeah. And he's someone who really like understands how they work. And for that, I'm grateful for it. And I would love to have him on the main roster, but I feel like he's much more valuable to the business as a performance center. For sure. And times change in a way that's really wild. You know, Ben is sitting there and I pointed him out several times. Ben's never changing. This warehouse says, yeah, things come in here, but all the other positions in here, it's really wild. If you look at WWE and you see like, oh, that guy's in charge of this now and I get, it's growing. And then also the question of, well, who's next? Yeah. Right? Because it's such a different WWE now. Who's interested in the- Yeah. The people move on and people have to step in. Yeah. And essentially will have moved on under these- That's the crazy about wrestling. I always tell people like, don't really ever hate anybody. Don't. Don't hate anyway. You will, but don't because you will work with them again. You will, you know, like, I have burned boats, bridges, everything. And then known like, oh, you know, I'm going to have to deal with that person, you know? Like, I got to figure out how that looks for me. And after a while you start realizing, no, just ended all professionally. That's something that I feel like the old timers were maybe a little better than our generation or at least like emotional types like me as they were really good about. All right, we're done. Yeah. See you again. Business is business, right? I feel like a lot of stuff right now is like way too personal. Yeah. Yeah. I'm up. Yeah. I need to hear that on a regular basis. I'm obsessed with this. And it's like, what, you know, just like, it's sometimes it's just business. Yeah. I think I used to be obsessed with it. And like, the older I've gotten, like, the more I've detached on, I've separated, like, for a girl from Finn and like, I can understand like if like, I can sometimes I'm in the locker room and I can like tell someone's like, working me. Oh, it's the more like, you know, trying to manipulate the situation. Bad salesman. And I just, I just doesn't bother me. Okay, fine. Bad salesman. Because Finn isn't a real person. Yeah. And like, Fergo's going to go home and it's not going to affect, like Fergo tomorrow, so. I'd always try like, zoom out and like, oh, you're not being booked right or are you not getting enough W's you're losing all the time. I try to zoom out and think like 25 years and not like, like a month, you know? Do you know you probably paid me the best compliment I ever got as far as, I think you already know this ever as a wrestler ever as just a wrestler and a person in business. You were being way too generous with the statement, but I've stand by the fact that I still consider my favorite compliment I ever received from one of my peers. There's a sheets at TV each week with all the shows that say no comps, like don't ask for comp tickets and coming out of WrestleMania 39 through WrestleMania 40, there was a long sheet. It used to be like two or three and it was a long sheet and you thanked me for generally some of the uptick in business and that was greater than anything. You could probably experience in a character setting or in any setting because again, the world does not revolve around one wrestler ever, but sometimes we feel it does. But still you do want to look back. You don't want to be a wrestler who is so humble that you never, you never tipped your own hat. You never, you know, but the best thing ever and Hunter told me this year is he goes, nobody can put you over like somebody else. And I thought, oh man, this guy who frickin' changed our entire industry for him to say that once multiple times to me was incredibly kind and super. Well, I mean it. And with the greatest respect to the people at the top before you, when I came to the company like 10 years ago and was wrestling shows, they were like 30% capacity, 40% capacity and that was a good night. Yeah, oh yeah. Right? And now it's 100% capacity. When that upswing happened was coincided with what you're arrival. And I don't think that's the coincidence. So, I'm not like to tip my hat. My friends at Wheatley, they have this wonderful jingle. We will have you watch it, then I'll ask you to fill in one word. Bakasota. Wheatley. Wheatley. So good. I drink it. This song right here is for the red, white and blue. You got the taste. And you drink like a tooth. Wheatley. So good. I drink it. Wheatley. American vodka. Wheatley. So good. I drink it neatly if you could replace the word neatly. What would you say? Wheatley. So good. I drink it. Wheatley. It's so good. I drink it. infinitely. Okay. Okay. Nice. Nice. Yeah. Well done. I think jumping right in is a way to go on that. We've had some people really get bogged down in that question. I want to say one more thing. I've kind of recently, I don't want to say recently, but maybe like in the last four years, like shyed away from any kind of podcast or interview or just anything kind of in public and tried to just like kind of focus on what I love doing, which is wrestling. Yeah. And it's for like a multitude of reasons, but I feel like the main reason is that there's just too much noise and too much content and content for the sake of content. And it doesn't really mean anything. And like, I've stopped wanting to contribute to that. But I feel like this is something that means something being able to speak to you. Oh man. And I'm grateful for this opportunity to kind of like dip my feet back into like being in the public eye and kind of being open and being frugal and I'm grateful for the opportunity. Thank you. Thanks for choosing us to even though we chased you down. I thought that was part of the. Well, the first time I was like, I don't really want to do it. I'm busy. The second time I actually was busy. But I'm glad. And if you do it and then you're like, no, because too much content is a thing. Too much noise is a thing. Content for the sake of content is a thing. But you know, don't be afraid. There's other podcasts. Stephanie's podcast is pretty good. Shout out to Stephanie. I've actually already spoken a hundred about I would love to do stuff for podcast. Yeah. I like things that are real. I don't like things that are fake. I don't like going on the radio for five minute hit. I don't like going on a sit down daily morning show for, hey, you see us tonight. Yeah. I want to do real things. Yeah. Yeah. This is real. You're dead on. I oddly revel in the really quick hit. I think because sometimes they're so generic and so heartless that there's like, it's some of it's fun for me in a way. Like you do a radio where guys reading your Wikipedia, you know, and it's just like. Do you know how many times I've got asked, oh, something. We know you love Lego based off one little 15 minute snippet we don't in NXT 11 years ago. I'm so glad I didn't ask about Lego, but I do still love Lego, right? And I, but I'm also 44 years old. Yeah. And I'm married. So like I have other things I got to do. You guys have many other things, you know, uh, you know, they're, uh, those, the quick hits can be. Is there any other things you're into? Outside of wrestling. I mean, as a dad, it's all, and two girls, it's, it's all pretty much just princess stuff. You know, uh, princess power on prime right now is a big deal. You got to sing a song, do all that. Uh, she's really big into Harry Potter, but she's only seen the first movie so that that's going to limit the conversations I can have with her. So I'm trying to push, get into it a little bit more, but I mean, that's it for me is the kids, right? I think the other things went not because they're not, that becomes such a priority thing in your life that they become, you don't get them as much cigars is the thing I'm into other. And that you want to, you want to hear some old-timer shit? Yeah. The guy who does my, uh, diet or training or whatever, asked for 50 minutes of cardio, 50, 50. And he'll say, you can just walk at an incline for 50, walk at an incline, okay. I walk in my neighborhood. It's roughly 45 to 50 minutes. I've been, I do it. I now have just started smoking a cigar while doing it, which I think is counterproductive to the cardio. No. However, yeah, however, and just, I, I, I love, I smoke weed while trying to. That, that, that, I don't think it'd be a better ending.