Finding The Right Church: A Church That Remains Faithful [feat. Catherine Renfro]

(upbeat music) - Shannon Baptist Church exists to make mature and multiply disciples of Jesus Christ one life at a time in the Midlands and beyond. - Hey everyone, welcome to the Shannon Plus Podcast. I'm Amy Peterson and we're in the middle of a series called Finding the Right Church. Every Sunday, Pastor Daniel opens up God's Word and then here on Mondays, we simply keep the conversation going. So for today's conversation, I have a couple friends that are here with me. First, it's someone who's no stranger to our Shannon Plus family, Don Deer, Mercer Plank. Welcome. - Welcome, the God to be here with you, my friend. Glad you're leading this, this is fun. - It is gonna be so much fun. And I'm also so excited to introduce to you all my friend, Katherine Redfroke. Katherine from all the way from Atlanta, we're so glad you're here. - Amy, thank you so much for letting me join. I've been looking forward to this conversation. - Yay, well, we all met, well, not met, but we all have been at Shannon. And what's curious, Shannon, I'm just church, and what's curious is, I think it was back in the 2000s. I know that we came in 2005. Did you all actually know each other? - I think Katherine knew who I was, but Katherine, I mean, maybe we passed in the hallway. I mean, such a big church in so many ways. - Yeah, I don't think we knew each other. We didn't officially get to meet, but I definitely watched you on the news because I was a journalist on major. And so, yes. - That's awesome. - And so that was from TV. - Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that's just so interesting because today we're gonna talk about finding the right church is a church that remains faithful and wanting to explore each of our stories and then come back together and kind of see what we see now in moving forward. But Katherine, long before you are a mom, you're an author and a ministry wife, you are a USC student. And some listeners may even remember you as Katherine, what was your main name? - Martin. - Katherine. - Martin. Because you also served in youth, is that correct? - That's right. - So tell us a little bit about that journey you had here at the end working for Shannon. - Right, so I went to USC just like you said. And I really plugged into Shannon around my sophomore year of college was a part of the collegiate ministry there and then later on had an opportunity to serve with the middle school students and high school students and really that's where the Lord just started doing a work in my life. I'm so grateful for Shannon and how the church has had such a huge impact on my life. - Well, I know in an email you had told Amy and me that really it was some of the women in Shannon who changed the trajectory of your life in a big way with one of these women, Amy and I know well, Stacy Dickinson, who had written you a letter, a letter that you keep in your Bible to this day. And I just think a church that remains faithful is that kind of church where people, women are pouring into women, men are pouring into men, but that affected you personally and look where you are now. - Right, the Lord used so many people that just invested in me as a college student and the women that you mentioned, you know, is so funny how the Lord works. While I had an opportunity to invest in middle school and high school girls, a lot of those moms were investing in me at the same time, which is such a cool picture of the church, being the church, you know, and older women getting to pour into younger women and vice versa, you know, so me getting to live life and do life with these students and then having other people investing in me, it was literally life changing. - Oh, that's so cool. I just think that Lord is so at work, even in places we don't think he is and how he layers each season on the next to continue to take us where he wants us to go. Because fast forward to where we are now, Catherine, today you serve as the national director of Women's Evangelism with the North American Mission Board. That's quite a big jump from a USC student to where you are now. - Right. - And I love that title, but what does it actually mean? What do you actually get to do? - Yes, mom's so grateful for what the Lord allows us to be a part of. Let me preface this by saying, I'm reminded every day that God doesn't need any of us. And yet he chooses to allow us to be a part of what he's doing to expand the kingdom. And I'm just grateful, you know, that we get to be a part of that in different ways. As the national director of Women's Evangelism at the North American Mission Board, I serve on the Evangelism team. And I have the honor of just getting to encourage and equip women to leverage their life for the gospel. You know, when you look at 2 Corinthians chapter five, Paul talks about how we're reconciled to God and then we're given the ministry of reconciliation, which means if we know Jesus were called to ministry. But ladies, you know, like a lot of times we think, oh, that's just for people who serve in the church or who work full time in the church or lead a ministry area or, but really it's for every follower of Jesus. And so I just have the honor of equipping women to leverage their life for the gospel, to share the gospel, and to use the gift skills and passions that God has given them to make an impact where he has them. - And we're gonna keep looking at a church remaining faithful, but we'd be remiss if we did not clarify for some people. I think, you know, Amy, there are probably a lot of people who may not understand in a NB national, or excuse me, North American Mission Board. So Katherine, just give us a little snippet of what that is, like what you guys do for churches. - Yeah, that's a great question. So at the North American Mission Board, we partner with churches all across North America. And there's different ways that we do that. We have what we call send network, which is a church planting network. NAMM has an opportunity to partner with churches to help them plant churches. And then we have what we call send relief, which is a compassion ministry arm of the North American Mission Board, which really is partnering with churches to help them start compassion ministries and engage in compassion ministries in their communities. And it's all for the sake of the gospel. Literally, everything that we do is all about the gospel. And on the evangelism team, specifically, we provide resources and training and different things like that to help people really be able to share the gospel. And then we've got a couple of guys on our team, also that really partner with pastors and they're focused on helping pastors create this culture of evangelism in their church. So that the church is living life on mission and reaching people in their communities. You know, it's so good to know that. Sometimes we get so focused on where our world, our little circle is locally that we don't see the work that's going on beyond and the resources that are there to help us because North American Mission Board NAM is an entity of the Southern Baptist Convention. And so for us to utilize the resource that are there for us as churches all over the country, all over this continent is such a valuable tool to use. And so if you're interested in that, you can go online and at NAM is it [email protected]. That's it. Yes, nambe.net. And you can find all those things that Catherine was talking about and see the resources that are there for us because I love, and I've heard you a couple times, speak Catherine and the way that you're able to take the big word of evangelism and maybe the misconceptions that many of us have about that. And parent down to what is your personal responsibility through the person who rings a doorbell at your front door or who you see in the doctor's office or at your kid's school. There's so many ways in which we can leverage our lives for that. And that is something that I'm seeing God do through you in such significant ways of giving us tools that are right there for us to share Jesus. So the question that we're asking through this whole series is how did you find the right church or how to find the right church? And all of us at some point me and Donda are still here have found Shandon being the right church for us. So I want to take us back. I know Catherine, you said just a little bit about it at Shandon College that you were able to connect with Shandon and some of those people who actually really invested of you in you. But what point, Catherine, did you realize that I think I found my church home and did you even know what that meant? Did you have a history of church homeless? - Yeah, so I grew up going to church. And I knew when I graduated from high school and going into college that it was going to be important for me to find a local church. But I'll be honest, it took me a while. I don't, like I said, I think it was a sophomore when I finally plugged in to Shandon. I checked out a lot of different churches. And it's just different when you're going on your own to a church and trying to figure out what am I looking for? Or where should I be or where can I get connected? And Shandon, for me, as I think about what is a faithful church? There's a few different elements that have really come to mind as I think about my time at Shandon. And what I saw there is the that she and I was a church that kept Jesus at the center of everything. You know, I started out by visiting the college ministry. Steve Turner was the collegiate pastor at the time. - I guess what? - You still here! - Yes! (laughing) - He and John and a whole crew of leaders just were pouring in to college students and giving opportunities to get together at gatherings and football tailgates and Bible study opportunities and everything that they did was centered around Jesus. They wanted college students to know they had a place to belong and they were pointing them to Jesus. And then I think about when I started to intern in the student ministry, it was all about helping these students know who Jesus is and to be able to walk with him, to grow in a relationship with him and live that out outside the walls of the church. And so I saw it from a collegiate ministry perspective. I saw it from the student ministry perspective. And then I saw it on Sunday mornings and the worship services, you know, within the worship experience. The music obviously pointing people to Jesus at the time, Pastor Lincoln was there. And, you know, he just preached the Bible and he just pointed us all to Jesus. And so it didn't matter what ministry area that I encountered at Shandon, they were all centered on Jesus. And I think about that. And that really was the number one factor for me. The other thing that I would say, and when thinking about a faithful church, well, Shandon was a faithful church in my life. Like a faithful church is one who shows up. And I experienced in my life, even after I graduated from USC, that so graduated in May in October. I lost my brother unexpectedly. And I had gone to Southeastern Seminary at the time. But that church just showed up. Like the church was the church. And I remember, you'll remember Barry Gray. Now remember him just calling me and just talking with these leaders that had poured into me as a college student and then these moms that had come around me while I was serving their students. They all just rallied around me. And as a result, also my family at the time. And what I've learned is the ministry of presence is the greatest ministry we as the church have. And Shandon just demonstrated that so well. I could go on with several other things for a faithful church. But those are two that really just stood out to me. I think that's really helpful because we can sometimes say, find a church that remains faithful. But what does that really look like? And you gave us some excellent things to look for. And a church, whether it's here at Shandon, or if you're listening and you're in other places, or finding looking for churches in other states, you'd be able to take this template and really pass our Daniels looking in revelation to that. And seeing those elements to make sure that you are finding the right church. And Dondi, last week, you on the podcast talked about finding the right church one that loves Jesus as an Ellie. And loving Jesus to the point that you have-- one point I wanted to make was more Christ's less culture. And I think when we talk about a church remaining faithful to the cause of Christ holding fast to Jesus' name, it can be difficult when culture is just kind of always working at us as individuals, but us as a church to push us in the opposite direction. And Catherine, I'm sure in your position and working with so many churches around North America, you see the good, the bad, and the ugly. And the sadness is there is ugly. The culture is constantly pulling at us as a church. And that's why I like that we're doing this series right now about finding the right church. And one of those key points is one that remains faithful. No matter what culture throws our way, we take the narrow road and we're going to stick to the plan that's in this Bible. Try. That's so good. I think that that is a very important foundation when you're looking at churches, make sure that they doctrinally follow what scripture says and continue to follow that as the culture changes. Yeah, exactly. And, Daudi, I know that you have been here at Shandon. I'm curious, one, how long have you been at Shandon? And also, when did you realize that this was the right church for you? I came originally in 1992. I had been working in the Green Bay Wisconsin market. And I had become a Christian in college. Now, for me, unfortunately, I, when I became a Christian in college, thankfully, I had a parent church, Campus Crusade for Christ now called crew, where I got a lot of instruction. And they definitely said, Sunday, we want you in church. But the particular church I was going to, didn't have any kind of college ministry. And then I went to Green Bay, found a Bible teaching, Bible believing church, and grew there, got into a Bible study and realized what it was to be in a good solid church. Then I moved here to Columbia, South Carolina in 1992. And someone who, my sister knew, it was kind of one of those, a friend of a friend of a friend, said, oh, you should go to Shandon. So I did. And I would say pretty much by the end of the service, I thought, I don't need to go anywhere else. I heard God's word being preached. I was hungry for it. And so I became involved with Shandon for several years until another church in town had lost their singles pastor and asked that I would come and teach the singles ministry over there at their church. So I went there, then I moved to Houston, Texas, had a great church where I worked in that TV market for five years. And when I came back here in January of 2001, I walked right back into the doors of Shandon. Because to me, when I'm in Shandon, I'm home. That's home to me. And there are so many good churches doing a lot of speaking. I go to some churches where I'm like, you guys are on fire for the Lord, you're teaching God's word, you have ministries that matter. But for me, Shandon is home. And Amy, I think you and I sometimes forget that it's a big church. Like sometimes we almost have to like step away from it and look at it and go, okay, it's a big building. Because we are so involved in it. And when you get into small groups, which are so important, and Catherine, I loved earlier that you were talking about this faithful church is one where people pour into other people. Because that helps the church not feel so big. It brings it in and you have a family. You have a group. That's why our Sunday groups, what we used to call Sunday school. But I guess Catherine now, Shandon thought that I still call them Sunday school. It's Sunday school and big church. Exactly. So I love that I have a Sunday group class, you know, where I can, it's a group of like 30 people and we're investing in one another's lives. And then all the other activities there. But for me, that was just Shandon is home. When I'm there, I'm home. Yeah. You know, I feel that way too. Go ahead, Catherine. No, I was just going to say, you mentioned it is a large church, but it doesn't have to feel large. And it's because of the community that's built. You know, I think about the faithfulness of the church at large through Shandon. Not only did they have places to belong when I was a college student, but they also were very intentional to equip people to see like, hey, what skills do you have? What are your gifts? What are your passions? And how can we put those to use here? And so there was really, there was an intentionality behind helping whether their students or adults see like, you know, you've got a role to play in this. And let's raise you up, you know, and give you opportunities to serve, which is exactly how the Lord started to change the trajectory of my life is when Nate Merrill said, I see this calling in your life. And I want to give you opportunities to serve and to explore that calling. I would have never pursued that on my own, but because people at Shandon saw something in me that I didn't even see myself. And I know that's happened time and time and time again. And then giving opportunities to step up and serve and lead. That's what God calls all of us to do, you know, as the church, capital C church. We all part of the body and we all have a role to play. And I think a faithful church helps people see, hey, you've got to role to play in this. And I think Shandon, even as large as it is, it doesn't feel like that way because you're intentionally connecting with people, intentionally serving. And it just makes a difference. It really does. And one of the things that I was thinking about in preparation for this conversation is that faithful churches aren't made up of perfect people. They're made up of ordinary people who follow a faithful Savior together. And I think that is the key of what we are talking about because Jesus is a man. asking us to find a perfect church, but he's also asking us to faithfully belong to one. And as you faithfully belong to one to a church that remains faithful, then you're able to see the beauty that God has for you in the relationship with Him and other believers. It's interesting to hear about your stories and finding Shea and because we came here on a totally different circumstance because my husband had a ministry position. And so we were actually called to Shea and then as the right church in 2005, which meant we moved from Oklahoma to South Carolina with two little boys, but still in the midst of that decision making and those who are ministry wives can understand this, we're praying, "Lord, is this really where you're calling us? Is this the right church for us?" And I remember asking God three specific questions or confirmations that He would give us, that He would give me personally of some concerns or worries that I had. And one of them was, "Oh God, I want this church to be a place where people are real and authentic." And Dondi, I don't know if I ever told you this and maybe I have, but one of those conversations wasn't in a meeting or in a sermon, it was you. And I remember sitting in the old sanctuary while you prayed the offatory prayer. And it had to be in like 2005 because we hadn't committed to come yet. Oh wow. Yeah, and there was a huge pain. One, the fact that you were praying was a huge win for me, but then also that there was authenticity. You prayed with such confidence and a genuine love for Jesus that I was like, "Okay, if this is like a snapshot of the people that are here in this church of the kind of faith that God was growing in people here, then I want to be a part of that." So thank you for being faithful to the Lord, which also reflected that the church was faithful. Well, thank you for saying that. That touches me. I don't know if you had told me that before I forgot it. So I'm glad we did. We would like hearing it for the first time and it was so stupid. That's how it goes for that. You know, when we talk about a church being faithful and I think we also have to say, you know, how do we measure faithfulness when it comes to church? It'd be real easy to default to worldly metrics like, you know, size and programs. How big is your church? How many programs do you offer? And while we talk about Shandon as big and we have a lot of programs, all of that is wonderful. But none of it matters if we're not, again, preaching the word, teaching the word and living the word. I'm sure Catherine, especially with your position and all these churches you overlook, I'm sure you know of really tiny churches that are doing big things. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Because it's not, it's like you said, it's not about the size. It's about the mission. It all comes down to the mission. And you know, Jesus gave all of us the same mission, you know, He says, go and make disciples. And I think for as, you know, a church that's having kingdom impact is a church that is faithfully focused on helping people know Jesus and also make him known. I'm fully convinced, ladies, that if we're going to reach this world with the gospel, it's going to take every follower of Jesus, living life on mission and a faithful church really is helping their people see, hey, this is about all. All of us were only in the walls of the church for a few number of hours a week. The majority of our time is spent out there. And so how do we proclaim the gospel wherever God has us? And those churches, people churches that are focused on the mission, man, the Lord is just doing incredible things. Yeah. That's so good to hear because you do get a front row seat as you see all over the continent. The various churches that God is still building so faithful. That's such an encouragement. Yeah. Well, let's make it personal. Imagine that someone is listening who's just moved to Newtown, whether it be here in Columbia or somewhere else, or with college beginning, semester beginning, maybe they're sitting a freshman to college, or someone who might have been hurt by a church, or someone who's been looking for a while. It is like, I don't know where I've got to belong. If you were sitting across the table from them over coffee, what would you encourage them with? What would you tell them about our individual church? No, just about how do you encourage them to keep looking to what would they look for? This is just making it personal to somebody. If someone comes to you and says, gosh, I am so frustrated or I don't know where to look, what should I be looking for and what should I be? What should my next step be? The first thing that I would tell someone is to look for a church that is preaching the Bible and proclaiming the gospel. That is the number one thing. There's a lot of preferences we tend to look at, style of music, how many programs are there, things like that. But the number one thing is does this church preach the Bible? That's the first thing that we tell people all the time to look for. Then secondly, I would really say, hey, ask this question, is this a church where I can plug into where I'm going to be poured into but also where there are going to be ways where I can serve? Because a lot of times we go into churches with more of a consumer mentality. What can I gain from this? What can I get out of this? When in reality, I think the question is how can I serve? How can I give? How can I be a part of what God is doing here? I encourage a lot of people, hey, don't be sideline people. Be a part of what God is doing through His church, the local church, and then beyond. Those are the two things I would say first. That's good. Don De Dey, anything to that? No, I love that question. I think that I would answer it with a look at leadership, not necessarily is your pastor super smart and a great articulator. Is he able to have a great punch line from the pulpit? All that stuff is nice, but it's just a sugar coating. What's underneath is does this pastor and do all of the other pastors within the church and all of the staff members? Are they legit? Are they serving? They're in a leadership position, but are they helping to clean the tables off on Wednesday night? Are they committed in their walks, not just on Sunday morning, but who are those people Monday through Saturday? And I've had the benefit of knowing so many of the people in leadership within our church and within several other churches. And it brings me a lot of comfort to see, though not perfect because not one of us is. We all are so at fault. But what is our hearts desire? And it is, if it is, to seek the Lord and to seek His plan for our lives and to be used by Him and to serve other people to bring them into the kingdom, then to me, that's a solid church. And that's the kind of church I want to look for. That's the kind of church I want to be a part of. I know, Catherine, I think that Amy had written some, oh no, it was off to your bio on the website for the North American Mission Board. It said, your passion is not just seeing lost people come to know Jesus, but for saved people to live out their purpose of making Jesus known. And that to me is what I would tell somebody else is look for a church that not is not just trying to get people in the door and across the line of, hey, we got them, they're saved now. But to get that person to the next line where they go into heaven, into the gates and Lord is saying, well done, good and faithful servant. Right. Yeah, that's really good. I think those are all such great elements and really the foundation of what to look for in a church. One of the things that I would say to someone if are having coffee with them and they are struggling with this would be, you know, it's hard. It's hard looking for a church. It's hard finding one that is right for you and your family. And in ministry, you don't get the chance to do that because you're actually really serving in one church from the get go. But when we stepped out and took about seven year hiatus into Oklahoma and we weren't a part connected to a church ministry, we had the ability to go to different churches and see if they were the right fit. And the persistence that it takes and that is really hard. But I think it's very important to keep going. Keep at it. Don't give up. Don't take one church's experience as all churches experience. But to really look for those elements and sometimes it takes weeks to do that. And then begin getting involved because it's not necessary. going to feel like home by just showing up on a Sunday morning for the big worship or any worship big church, but it's through getting to know people and serving together in which so it takes time to make it feel. But the elements like y'all mentioned are very important to even begin to try. I mean, that point would be so good at this because you're such an encourager and you go to coffee with them. I'm like, no, I'm just going to the good church. You asked what do you think about that? Yeah, you're saying yes, let's have coffee. And I'll explain. I'll hug you and I'll hold you and I'll walk you through this. And I'm just like in out. Let's go. I'm much better than it that than I. We all need each other. That's for sure. And that's why a faithful church is so good because there are different places in which you and your gifts are so faithful. And me and my gifts reflect God's faithfulness. And and cathode you and your gifts reflect God's faithfulness. And so that's the beauty of what God does when he brings his imperfect people together and worship him is all the different connections that you can have experiences and growth that you can have in the Lord. Well, I have been really encouraged by this conversation. Y'all, is there anything else that you would like to say in closing? Katherine, I'll let you have the last word. It was a pleasure to have you chat with us today. But I, you know, I just publicly thank the Lord for our church. Amy and I being in the same church, Katherine, I know obviously you're in a different one. And some of the people listening to this podcast, I think it is would be useful and beneficial for all of us who are listening to this podcast at this moment to say, Lord, thank you for my church. Protect my church. Protect my pastor and the other pastors and our staff protect our congregation. And just bless the church because the the churches are family and it's a way to know God and to make him known. And for that, you know, I'm just really grateful. Yeah, I just love that, Katherine. Yeah, I think about what scripture says in Hebrews, he says, let us not give up meeting together as some are in the habit of doing, but encourage one another all the more as we see the day approaching. And I think when you look at the church, like it, the church is a gift from the Lord to us, you know, to have a place where we belong. And Amy, you mentioned this a moment ago, it takes time, you know, at our church where my husband pastors, we say six, we say that all the time when people visit, like, hey, six, six, just give us six weeks because one, it takes time to build community. You don't just find community, you build community. But give it several weeks and you will meet people. You'll get to know people and you'll be known by people. But the beauty of gathering together and having a body of believers where you can encourage people and be encouraged is vital in our walks with the Lord. And I'm thankful. I'm so thankful for the way that the Lord used shan in my life, the impact literally, I wanted to be a broadcast journalism, like a broadcast journalism. And the Lord had other plans and it was at shan in where he showed me the calling he had on my life to go into a more vocational ministry and I'll forever be grateful for the leadership team there and the leaders, the families that invested in me and how the Lord used them. And I can say that for anyone who walks in the doors of the church and gets plugged in, the Lord will use the body of Christ to not only encourage one another but also to equip us to go out and do what he's called us to do to make him known. And that is significant purpose. If you're looking for purpose and you don't know where to look, find the right church for you. One that loves Jesus, one that remains faithful and you need to tune in for the next ones. Join us if you're in the Columbia area and look for church home. We'd love to invite you to join us at shan in. You can go on shana.org for all the service times and how to provide a how to plan your visit. Stick six. That is so good, Catherine. If you know someone who's looking for church home or a student who is headed off to college, share this episode with them. And for all of y'all listening, thanks so much for spending time with us. Catherine, thank you for being here with us today. It's an honor, my friend. Thank you for letting me be a part. And Don, I always love our conversations. Thank you, sweetie. Thank you to you and Catherine, great to see you and thanks for what you're doing for so many churches around North America. Well, it's an honor to serve. Grateful for you, ladies. Well, we'll see you next week right here on Shadon Plus Podcast.