Finding shared vision & passion w/ Erni Loosen, Loosen Bros

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I'm sure most of our listeners know who you are, but just for those who may not know, it's going to give an overview of where you've come from. I'm Ernie Lusin or Ernst Lusin from the Dr. Lusin Estate here in Germany. Well, I took over the Dr. Lusin Estate in 1987 during the harvest. We are typical, say, German or European estate family around Estate. It's about 200 years in the families. Since 200 years, we do only re-sling. Sounds a little bit boring to do the same thing for 200 years. We have a visit our way out. Well, we are in the middle of fucking nowhere. How do you do re-sling? You're leaving this place. Well, the estate, as I said, took over in June the harvest '88. And then when was it? In '96, I took over another estate and the files. The Palatinette area. We are on the Mosul. The Mosul is a tributary to the Rhine River. The Rhine River is also a very old historic wine-coring region here in Germany. Therefore, we did only re-sling or do only re-sling. Re-sling is the crepe-righty of the Mosul. There's nothing else which the Mosul is famous for. But on the Rhine, the Rhine itself, there are other crepe-righty. It's also very famous. Re-sling is a German crepe-righty. But the Rhine is also very famous as a wrong-standing tradition. Over a thousand years, for the Pinot Rivals, Pinot Gris, Pinot Blanc, Pinot Noir. It's also good words from Miner, you have there. Which is, you find that all wrong the Rhine from Alza's all the way up to Barden and Palatinette, Rhine Hessen, to Rhine Gao. And now we call it the typical Rhine River Riles, and now the Pinot Riles, and our Eskivords. That was the reason that I took over 96. I got the chance to take over a very old historic estate, which is called Villa Wolfe. We've always started that Villa Wolfe. And I had been going to the Rhine because I didn't want to sure, I'm also allowed to grow Pinot Riles here in the Mosul. That's not forbidden. But I'm a little bit peristic. I'm in a kind of old-fashioned. I think re-sling belongs to the Mosul, and they should do a re-sling. And if you want to do some Pinot Riles, I love Pinot Riles. So I thought I rather go to the area where the Pinot Riles have a very long, long tradition, and a long standing to a tradition. And so then we have been going to the files and we have been concentrating there. I mean, we do produce also re-sling there, but also we produce a lot of Pinot Riles, Pinot Grief, Pinot Blanc, Pinot Noir, Pinot Noir, Rosé. And then in '99, I started this joint venture with Shatosan Michel in Wynneville, CL, and that was a good friend told me that wasn't the way about that. That Shatosan Michel was the largest recent producer in the US. And so we acquired, in these days, our choup, and so we got good friends, and we talked later about more in detail. And then in 2003, I founded Lose Brothers USA, an importing company. I was always, I don't know why, but the importers in the US, who handed German wines, had been always pretty strange guys. I don't know why it is German wine, but you know-- Like Reisler. Yeah. You know, Rudy Vies in the old days, and named them. And my God, so difficult persons, people. And I had been working with all of them, and I was so fed up. I said, what's wrong with these people? And then I asked, my old buddy Kirk, you know, Kirk, he was our now president, CEO of Lose Brothers USA, and all the holding companies. And I said, Kirk was an old friend who always did graphic design for us. So do you think it's very difficult to start our own importing company? You know, I don't want to work with these guys anymore. And so they're, oh God, Germans, you know. And so he said, yeah, well, let's try it. And so we started in 2003, our own importing company, Lose Brothers USA, started only to import our own wines, but later we also imported other people's wine, you know. And I think that was the best thing I ever did. I mean, I must say, you had the freedom, you could decide with the distribution, you had, you know, you had so much more flexibility, you know, with, I mean, also just with these difficult times nowadays, with the first tariffs, you know, we had. So five years ago, even I had 25%. And if you are the own imported, then you can better, I mean, you can decide, you know, to lower your margins. And so you know, but you never can tell other people, you know, to lower margin. They say, yeah, you can do it, but I need my, you know, and so that was a good decision. I mean, really, plus be the best what I could, best why I ever did. Then therefore that Lose Brothers USA is in a port in Oregon, Bailey in Oregon city. Well, I met a lot of growers and a lot of people. I love Pinot Noir personally, you know, that is for me, Rieslengen, Pinot Noir for you, Ries the Red and the White Twin, you know, they have so many things in common, they need the right to have a, they are true trim when they're young, they get the same kind of aroma structure with age, the, what the French call, subois, old Rieslengen, subois, old house laser and old Pinot Noir get the same aroma structure, you know, and so lots of things in common. And so, yeah, and then, you know, I mean, it's took so many a certain time that a lot of people said, why are you not doing here? Some Pinot Noir, you know, I mean, you got, you are here with your company, you should also do some Pinot Noir. Well, then we decided 2005, we started our first vintage with Apacheonata, which became later a state in the beginning, it was contracted fruit. And the funny thing is the 2005, the first vintage is not released yet, you know, that will be released on my 25th anniversary. And then in 2009, I purchased 40 acres, you know, in the Malamad Valley, you know, barely in the Shea Helmountains, you know, it was a good friend of mine, lawyer, who is doing a lot of these kind of wine and everything. And so he's pretty famous for that, you know, resurbing his name. And he phone means that I told you so often, you have to do something here. And I have the ideal piece for you. It's a 40 acre piece in the Shea Helmount, just next to the original Rex Hill Wienja, you know, top property, top teller, wonderful. You should buy it, you have to buy it, he said it. So, well, that I bought it, then we started to plan, build a winery, and so on and on. I mean, got it, you know, all these things more happened that I have a plan, you know, never really had a plan. It came always, these things always decided out of passion, you want to do something, or you'll react to something like the Impolling Company, you know. Yeah. And then in 2015, also an old friend of mine, Terrible Rodriguez, you know, from Spain. He's also, I mean, God, I don't know how many, how many estates he established, you know, in Spain, you know, numerous, you know. And he's a big, recent fan, you know, he said, you know, I would really love to do something with this thing in the Mosul. Should we do something together? And I said, yeah, and I can do something, I will do a Riyadhah and the Lanzaga stayed because in these days, he still had to. We all the same generation, we, and we had all fathers, you know, which had been big cut to reaction, we all had our problems with our fathers, you know. So we started things out of our own, you know, like Terrible, you know. And so I did a Riyadhah in Lanzaga and he did a re-sling here with me, very small, and this is a really project out of pure passion, you know. Yeah, and then my old buddy also, I know I'm said 30 more, 35 years. Peter Barry from Australia, you know, Claire Welley, also famous for Riyadhah. And there was always the Riyadhah, a Riyadhah Convention, you know, called Down Under Riyadhah Convention, in Australia every three years, you know. And you know, you always have to get asked, you know, how do you like my Riyadhah, how do you like Australia Riyadhah, you know. And, you know, the Australian Riyadhah are first bone dry, you know. They always very limy. And so I remember when I asked Peter 2016, I think it was it. I said, look, you know, what do you think? I mean, I don't understand sometimes the reason, don't understand these Riyadhah, why are they so light? You know, and you know, bone dry is this lineliness? Is this a taboo or a thing or is this, I don't know, put too much citric acid on it. I don't know, why is it? And so I would really like to understand Australian reasoning by producing one barrel, I said, one barrel, the way I would produce it, you know, which I think in the old traditional way as we produced reasoning, say 130 years ago, as my great-great-grandfather made the reasoning, you know. And so Peter said, yeah, I'm clear, sure, fantastic, you know, so yeah, I mean, Peter is a great guy, I mean, anyway, you know, all God in the old days we had been drinking so much, these guys can drink like, you know, as the Australian say, it takes a lot of beer to make great wines. And then 2017, the first vintage started, we did, I sent over an old foodo barrel, you know, from Germany, a 3000-dita barrel over there, because that is, 3000, yeah, 3000-dita is a big barrel here, but yeah, but not in the US. And so I have been sending a barrel over there, and I said, look, you know, we want to do it exactly as my grand-grandfather did, you know, fermenting on indigenous East Coast, we visited the Winiard, you know, the in '16 decided which Winiard we will go for, and then how we going to have is the grapes, you know, 100% healthy grapes, you know, no more tried, it's allowed, you know. And so, and also not too ripe, you know, not 40 and 50 and equals, so only 12, 12 and half. And so everything, all the parameters we said, and so I sent the barrel over and said, look, you know, we ferment on indigenous East, what they usually not do, they do all this, you know. We don't do cloud, I mean, of clarifications, we do all natural as it was done 130 years ago, because there was nothing. They didn't have anything else, and then natural fermentation, and then if it is fermented, you know, we top it up, sulfur, top it up, you know, and then we leave it two years, sitting on the East without patronage, you know, or they said, oh, really, can we do this, and all that, I said, okay. We agreed, I do a wine here, as I think, and the two boys of Peter, they did a wine here. I said, okay, you can do a wine here in the Mosul, the Aussie style, whatever you want to do. I do a reasoning, you know, as I think I would do it there, you know. And that was called Walter Walter, because the vineyard, where we produced, where the one juice is coming from, was an old riverbed, you know, where the, it's dried out, you know, very old, I mean, we're talking about hundreds of years, you know. And that was a riverbed where the birds and the wildlife took, I mean, drink the water, you know, and cross the river, you know. And that's called Walter Walter, a origin in name, you know. And so we call the wine Walter Walter, because it comes from this area, this, where the vineyard is, you know, it's that fish nest, yeah. Yeah, and then in the beginning, I had a partner, you know, in Oregon, where the winery, that was Jay Christopher Samas, you know. So he already had an established name. So we started a passionata, I started first. But then with the vineyards, when we planted it, we joined together. And we, we joined the label Jay Christopher together with my production, the winery. So Jay Christopher, but then Jay wanted to retire, you know, in 19, and we have 10 years together. And we want to go fishing. People in the US all want to retire with 5758, you know. We, we, so many people I met there all over the 1758, if they can afford the retire, you know. What we say here in a family company in the Mosul, you retire, if they carry you out the door with the feet first, you know. That is when we retire. And so, you know, and so I took the ownership of Jay Christopher and a passionata, I paid out Jay. And then, yeah, again, I was always a huge fan of burgundy, I have a huge collection of burgundy's in my private cellar, I don't know, 12, 15,000 models, I lost all of you. Yeah, and then I got the chance, you know, it's always these things which came with, I never planned this, you know. And then this friend of mine, which I always stayed, he bought 10, 12 years ago, he's a Dutch guy, he bought half of the Vier Chateau de Poulini Moa show, you know. I phone me suddenly in 2019 and said, "Hey, the other half of the Chateau is also for sale and I have the first refusal." I don't want to have Chinese or Russian buying it, you know. Because these old Chateau are together and they have one stairway tower, and there's one stairway tower connecting all these two buildings, you know. So Bailey, I know it, everybody can go from, you know, to each others, you know. And he said, "You know, I won't want rather a friend buying it, you know. And you are here anyway the last 10 years, you always live here with me when you're in burgundy." So, why are you not buying it, you know. I said, "Well, that is not, I mean, I had no plans for anything like that, you know." And he said, "Yeah, but then my brother said, "Oh, why not? Let's go." Because it was just the time when we had negative interest rates here in Germany, you know. So, I had to pay to the bank 1% interest rate on all our deposits and everything, you know. So, and then my brother said, "Hey, but before we pay all the interest rate to the bank, you know, better, you know, burgundy." There's an investment, you know. Real estate is not as expensive as the Winiards. Yeah, then we started buying the other half of the Bioschertur, the Poulini Mourachet. And, you know, we Germans are all very tight-fisted, you know. And we don't want to pay it out of the private pocket. So, we started a company, a Negros company, and so that we can write off all the expenses and everything, you know. And the renovation and so. And, yeah, well, it's suddenly I had a Negros business, you know, in burgundy, you know. Well, just lots of fun. I have a good friend with me from Born, you know. I have been working with him together. When we used to have, for 12 years, we had been the sole agent, Losenbrothers USA, was the sole agent of Nicola Potel, you know. Washington, Berlin, Dormande, Berlin. Very old friend. I met him the first time, 96, and we had been very close friends. Such a sad story, you know, that he made suicide last year. Yeah, and Mano, I know him through him. Mano barely helped him and barely was responsible to do the Negros side of Niko, you know, which was the Rochde-Belen side. And we've imported the wine, but then, yeah, and then I met Mano and he said, "What are you doing? I'm not with me." And he said, "Hey, I have a new business. Why are you not coming with me, you know. So, that is the, I think that's the last enterprise. I don't know. I forgot the same thing. And then, three years ago, because we're doing very well in China, you know. And our importing company, for the part, same thing, private equity, both them, you know, everything, a little bit like what happened with Chateau-Semichelle and Sekamo. Things getting all really bad, and this, they had no clue. There was no plan. And so, the same thing, you know. Here's where we're going to summer gate, right? Yeah, we're going to summer gate, yes, exactly. That was already sold to an Australian company. And we was, could never could implement the idea they had with summer gate to sell all their Australian brands, which they have in Australia, you know. Because they got this ridiculous tariff suddenly on 100 percent, I think, on that. Then, then there had been no interest in it more, and then they sold it to, to Chinese company, but a tech company who had no clue about why and didn't know what, I don't know why they bought it. So, but we have been not happy. And then, my sales manager, my Chinese sales manager, you know. And she said, you know, why, why we're not doing the same thing you did in the US, you know. Starting, losing, Dr. Lozon International China, I thought, yeah, well, I'm not sure because, you know. I mean, I can English and can read at least, you know, I mean, a contract in English, you know. But a, in Chinese, you know, I have no clue what I'm signing there. Sometimes I'm thinking, I always said, how are you sure what you're signing there? But it was also a good thing, you know. And because it's a Chinese company now, I have 10 people, 10 Chinese. I took all the best sales people who always sold my, my wine. They all want to leave, summer gate, and they're like, okay, let's come to me. You know, we've formed it together, you know. Now, the 10 people are selling like, wazy, you know, these Chinese, you know. So, abandoned, you know, it's not a, you know, it's this whole, therefore, that it is not recognized as a foreign company, you know. These guys, that's the wide, wide West, possibly like the 50s in the US, you know. They sell, you know, and no compliance anymore, nothing, you know. I mean, because the foreign companies, they in China, they get very, very much controlled about compliance. And so if it is a Chinese company, they can do what it's like. So, yeah, that was my last enterprise, which is also came, you know, all these. Sometimes it reminds me of this multi-pighted movie where this Irish lady always drops children, you know, doing, she doing the dishes. I'll only children in the form of companies across the white industry. I do have to go back and ask because you were talking about Australian recently. I need to know, you made your 3,000-liter barrel of Australian reason. Was it limey? Is it terroir or is it something else? Well, it is not limey. It's not limey. And I was anyway sure because why should an old historic wine making, which I do also with my wines, that my top reserve, Gigi reserves are all made like this. I sang the top Gigi reserves are staying 2-8 years in the barrel on the full east, without batonage, only topping up, topping up, topping up. And I think, what? Because terroir, we're talking about terroir with reasoning. If you really want to see terroir, you have to wait. Because especially reasoning is a fruit driven crab variety. And especially if you take what we don't do, but if you take cultivated yeast, and you have a lot of different cultivated yeast, if you want to live in my apple or pineapple or whatever, it's all there. And then, reasoning in the very beginning of the fermentation, it's very fruit driven, stone fruit driven, that's very typical. But this is not the terroir. This is basically the primary fruit. And the primary fruit, which is very frequent. It goes away after year, two years. And then the wine goes into the secondary stage. We're just like an athlete teenager with a lot of pickles and so on. It behaves. It's not fruity anymore, but it's also not a dalgech. I don't know. And so, my grandfather always said, you have to wait, vintage plus 10 years. Then the reasoning is ready. Because then you see, then you have the tertiary aromas and the tertiary aromas are the final aromas. They don't change anymore. They only decline with aging, where you get then slowly into the subwa aromas. But subwa is more than age aromas. And so, therefore, I thought, that's the reason, in the old days, with my grandfather, my grandfather, the customer never saw primary aromas with reasoning. Because if you keep wines two to eight years in the barrel and then you bottle it, they are with the finished aromas in the market. And we drink our Gigi reserves from the three major tertiary aromas. You see it in these wines if they are seven, eight, nine years old, so much more dramatically, because the masking primary aromas are gone. And then I think was my idea here too. The lime is a very primary aroma, I think, with Australian reasons. And this kind of, yeah, liminous and then the spone dryness, for me, doesn't really find harmony with the aging. And I thought, with this long aging, and that is spailly, with our dry wines the same. The long aging on the yeast, you get more complexity. You get a little more, I mean, integration of the, they are dry, but this dryness softens out, because of the touch, and that is only a touch, a kiss of yeast, not heavy buttonage, because I want to have aging potential with wine. And if you get aging potential, if you don't do buttonage, if you do too buttonage, you give too much oxidation, you oxidize it, not aging it. And that is exactly, and it was crazy. The first water, water we released, it merely became the most expensive Australian dry reasoning in Australia, a first hundred dollar Australian dollar reasoning. And so that was, I mean, and the wines can age, and that's what it's for me, very important. Reesling must, I mean, I know that people drink everything young, but for me a great wine, a wine can be only great, if it also has aging potential. If he's also great after 10, 15, 20 years, that is for me, very important. I mean, young, yeah, sure, everything is nice, young, but the real great wine, a real great wine, must have aging potential. If he can't age for me, I mean, then I can go to Australia's show and buy a $299, and drink at Emilia, sure, I don't put this away. But for me, a great wine must have the potential to lay away and to age it and become a greater wine, become a nicer wine with age. Back on the partnerships a little bit, you started some of your own companies. Some were partnered with others. What drove you to partner with other people? Oh, well, I mean, here in Europe, it's easier because it is, you know, in the files, it's one and half hour to drive, and to burn the, it takes me four hours, you know, I mean, in your country, there's nothing, you know, but if you do something in the US, you know, or in Australia or Spain, you know, you have to get into a plane, you know, and so you need somebody there. I mean, but for me, very important to find somebody who has the same ideas, share the same ideas, and the passion for it, you know, because I'm very passionate about what I'm doing. I have clear views. That's the reason I have this old saying from the very beginning when I started 30 years ago, 35 years ago, my god. And I'm an old donkey in business. My saying, that was always my saying, I had all the old days of my brochure. A great wine, it begins in your head, you know, starts in your head, you know, because you have to have, for my idea, you have to have a clear idea. What is a great wine? How can you produce a great wine if you don't have the idea of a great wine? How can you produce a great wine if you never had great wine, if you never drank great wines in your life, you know? And that is, I know, a lot of people now, you know, these natural people say, yeah, I don't do anything, I let God and the nature doing it, you know, I don't want to touch everything, you know? And so, you know, only thing, I know, if you leave it to God, you know, it ends up as vinegar. You have to do, you have to train the wines, you know, you have to do something, you know? And so, I mean, you can less, it's more, you know, but still you have to watch it, you have to watch it and see that it goes the right direction, you know? Up to 70%, it is easy, I mean, that is a standard wine making, you know? But every more percent, you know, from 70 to 100%, which is fairly, for my opinion, unabossibly, you know? But every percent more, you want to get more quality or more whatever complexity and whatever, you know? It's exponential more work. So possibly the last 5% is as much work as the first 70% you know? And possibly the very last percent is possibly again, as much work as the first 99% you know? But I think you always need to have the goal to get better. And therefore, I think you never can be 100% because how can you get better? You know? I mean, if this is the goal, you know? So it is, you can close, you can close to it, you know? And on all these joint ventures, you know, you need the right partners, you know? And I must say, also shuttle subway, even that this was such a big company. I must say all the people there, you know, started with Alan Choupe in these old days, you know? And the old wine mayor, Eric Olsen, great guy, but then in 2003, they got a new wine maker, Bob Bertol. He was also, oh my god, what a great guy, what a passion, you know? And we shared so much passion, I mean, what was I was saying was, you're, you're recently doing the day and have a vides and during the night, you know? And we saw, I mean, every year we found out more, we got better, we had ideas, we shared ideas, I've been sitting in the evening, you know, at our, with our vides and beer, I've been talking the whole time, how can we get better, how can we improve, you know? And so, and we found out a lot of tools, you know? The kind should have tools, you know, to improve the reasoning because, you know, I mean, it is cold climate crave, you know, reasoning and then you're like, fucking desert and eastern Washington with three and a half thousand sunshine hours, you know? So how you get it, cool climate and how will extend the hang time reasoning needs a long hang time, you know? And what they did in the old days, they did it like, you know, they made it easier, they produced it like the red one, now deficit, irrigation, you know, leaf blocking, you know, exposure to the sun, which is all right with red, you know, but not with reasoning. So we had to first introduce a completely different video culture, you know, which choose the reasoning and a video culture, which delays the ripening time, delays, you know, the hang time. And that is very important. We are now nearly there that we harvest our vineyards, which for our project, Aroika, as we harvest here in the Mosul, you know, that late, you know? So nearly we reach now two to four weeks later harvest, you know, only by ridicule to it. Therefore, what I learned and that is, that is the other thing. It is not a one way thing that the old world guy comes there and shows them what to do. I learned so much from these guys too. We all learned together. I learned also something for Germany because 2003 was the first hot vintage and nobody had a clue how to handle it. I knew how to handle it because I learned it in Washington state because it's every year 2003 there. Oh, so yeah, the mutual learning is important, the passion and the same vision. So these joint ventures. to be frank, possibly it is the old world because it can come from the old world. It was never really the idea of getting a new business and making a lot of money or making money or so. That was always the idea when I started, for example, with Shaktar Sabhichel, this project, you know. The goal was not having a company with them making money or so. My goal was, I thought, oh God, these Germans, I mean, that is such a lousy job. I mean, recently 120 years ago was the queen of the white crev-righties. It was the most expensive wine in the world, you know. We would love to have these days back. And then we messed it up. It was more expensive as Bordeaux, first class borders of burgundy, you know, around 1900. And then we messed it up, you know. And so, and then we started, you know, and I mean, I've been doing more and more into these messor-itals, you know. And then in the 70s, 80s, the whole disaster with plunan, black tower, leaf from image, Madonna. I mean, it ruined the whole reputation. And you know, and these days, Germans had such a low image, you know, a low quality. And it was no recently. Anyway, anymore, you know. They made people believe that they got a recently and a recently bottle, but didn't put recently anymore on it, you know, but made them believe and there was all this crap in there, you know. And we ruined it. We ruined our reputation, which we once had 100 years ago doing the most expensive wines in the world, you know. And I thought, we Germans are not able to do this again, you know. I mean, the GWI, these, all these idiots, you know, we have there, you know, and this big wine regime wanted to only pump out masses of quantities for 199 and so on. And I thought, I've made a strong partner, you know, that's too small. I can't do this, you know. But we have to do. And that was always the Renaissance of Reasoning. My whole life, I have been working on the Renaissance of Reasoning, you know, running and the beginning of it, was difficult running around, you know, clara, my way to English countryside, you know. And you know, you might find reasons from single windia, you know. And so these people said, I want nobody want to reason people trying to try to do that, you know. Give me a container of leap from it. I said, no, no, I produce fine reasoning out idiot, you know. Go, leave. But I thought in these days, when I approached Alan Choup, we wrote a little, you know, a say, send it to him and said, look, you know, you guys are famous for reasoning. You started, shut yourself in my shell, that is your, you know, that is your genes, you know, you started with reasoning with reasoning, you have famous for and Washington State reasoning, you are the largest reason for choosing, you know. It said that you also suffer about the bad reputation, which is German's greater for the reason, you know. But I still believe we can renovate this, this reputation, we must be, we can work on the Renaissance of Reasoning, you know. But let's put the best from the old world and the new world together, you know, a work together. Let's work instead of what was in these days, 499 was the Johannesburg reasoning of Shatos and Michelle. And let's work on renovating the reputation of reasoning. And he wasn't really said, yes, Ernst, that's a great idea because I love reasoning, it's said, sure, we produce now, it's much easier for us to sell shardonnay or Sauvignon plong or whatever, you know, as a reason, but it belongs to our genes, reasoning, that is how we started here, we believed that in reasoning, you know. And that's a great idea, let's do something together. That was my joint venture, you know, to renovate the reputation of reasoning. And these people are bigger, they have more money and they can do it and it is here, everything, you know, your, everything is slow, bureaucratic, you know, you can't do anything. And the US and I mean, with these guys, you know, man, I remember we flew back from the Columbia Crest back to Seattle, you know, hand-chake in the plane. Yeah, let's do it, let's do something together, you know. The next day I was in San Francisco with some some customers and a restaurant for doing a wine, wine dinner, you know, wine lunch, lunch, you know, and suddenly the phone rang, you know, was Harvey Steinman on the phone and said, "Hey, Ernst, what are you guys doing here with Shatos and Michelle?" "Lah, they put out a press release and get a really here. Here it takes Harvey here before they think, "Oh, what should we do this? Can we do that, blah blah blah?" You know, and that was the idea. I thought, I don't care if the reason when a song is with American reasoning and America, you know, as long it is for reasoning, you know. And if the people start drinking reasoning again, and then what is American reasoning, then we'll find out, yeah, where it comes reasoning from, then that bus will also say, "Oh, there's also nice reasoning." So, I don't care. I'm not egoistic in that. I think if people love reasoning again, you know, then they also start to drink reasoning from everywhere. How it started, it was never this idea, or let's do a new business, you know. It was always an idea behind it, you know. And so, all passion, you know, that I'm pure passion, that I love being in love like crazy. And it was definitely cheaper to start something in Oregon. You know, as a burgundy in this day, I mean, still, I mean, the prices for burgundy, when you're at that, so insane, you know, super crazy, you know. So, Nego's is a bit easier, but this is also more, you know, started out of passion and I'm doing something, you know, that's not big. I don't want to be big. I want to have only good relationship to certain growers. That is also my idea. I don't want to buy on always something else. I want to establish with certain growers that they give me, if they give me only one barrel every year, I don't care, or half a barrel, you know. And so, but to have always the same relationship, you know, something like continuity. I think that is also very important for wine for me, you know. Continuity, you know, that you don't, if I produce a wine in a certain style, you know, I do it my lifetime like this, you know. And so, the next generation I can't talk about it, but it is successful and you establish because what, if you look to the successful estates around the world, that is these estates, which doing since 200 years, the same thing. So, you've done so many different partnerships. A lot of them seem like they were not necessarily something you were seeking. It was either a frustration or a good friend, thank you, and us. And it's covered a lot of different areas, whether it's different countries or different, you know, being more vertically integrated by doing import in multiple countries. What do you think are like one or two things that is the most interesting or important things that you've learned in some of these partnerships? Is there a couple that you can point to in like, oh yeah, I got into this and then I blew my mind and I learned this. Yes, well, as I told you, you know, I just mentioned it beforehand, Evoika, you know, the recently with Chateau San Michel, which is produced in Eastern Washington, here, you know, the warm climate, very culture. That was totally new to me too, you know. And so, and I know what recently needs, you know, so I learned how to handle or we learn together, because we have been working together and said, okay, what can we do? The first thing I said, we have to get the hang time, we get a longer hang time, you know, with the reasoning, you know, that the ripens more slowly, you know, then the aromatics are better, you know, you have a better acidity, you know, and lower acidity, lower lower, I call, you know, we don't want to have reasoning with 50% I call, we want to have reasoning with maximum 12, 12.5 with the dry winds, you know. And so that you can reach only with longer hang time, you know, by slowing down the ripeness, and we tried so many things, you know, for example overhead sprinklers, you know, that still happened chilling down the whole time, you know. And so, I mean, then later we found out the overhead that creates all the arthritis, let's go for the bottom sprinklers, you know. Okay, cool down the soil and with the ever-everberation, they produce coolness, you know. And so more hedging, you know, that the bigger is going in the new leaves instead into the crepes, you know. And so more hedging, you know, more shading, you know, all these things. And that, I mean, we found out great things. I mean, hanging also a little bit more fruit, you know, because with 13,000, 3500 sunshine hours, you get everything right, you know. And that I learned, which I also learned for here, Germany, you know, because with, you know, clover warming, we also now face with warmer ventatures and these things, you know, that was a great benefit in 2003 for me, a great benefit, you know. We just tasted 2003's. I mean, a lot of 2003 in Germany, because why? I remember very much that everybody said, what are you doing? Why are you going to harvest the crepes? We never harvest it before, end of October. I said, yeah, well, but then the stuff is, I mean, this is a hot vintage, everything will be overripe, everything we're going to try this, you know. And most 2003 are, you can't drink anymore, you know, because people have been waiting because they did it, they did the same thing as they always did. I was the only one who had been going out three weeks earlier, four weeks earlier, had been looking to the parameters, you know, to the acidity and so on. And yesterday, we have been released three wines from 2003, which we left now, you know, 23 years, you know, only to show them that in this vintage, if you do it right, can age, you know. And we tasted the three wines yesterday, cabinet disparities announced, it's a beautiful, beautiful, you know, and most of the 2003, you can't drink anymore. So you learned a lot also for my side, you know, and that is the puny on it, you know, that it is both, we both learned, you know, Shantosem, Shell, Lound, and I learned for them. Because it is. It can't be a one-way street, you know? You have to listen to these people, you know? And so, I mean, if you go from the old world into this kind of, I mean, George Wenzh doesn't say, oh, we have to do this. And so I remember 30 years ago, when Tuah had been going to Burgundy, you know, started Tuah, Oregon, sorry. They planted everything exactly like in Burgundy, you know? I didn't work out at all. People always think, I do the same thing, you know? They're then become a Burgundy, you know? Or I take cuttings from Romani Conti and stick them in the ground, and then I get a Romani Conti. What a bullshit idea, you know? I'm sorry to say this, you know? But everything is different there. You know, you have to adapt and the people who have made their wine origin 30, 40, 50, 60 years, you know? I mean, Oregon is a very young wine-crying state. I think it's all started there, 65, 66 with David. Let you know, from Airee. But you have to listen to these people. They got the experience too, you know? And then you have to say, "Oh, but we can possibly adjust the things, you know? Let's try this gently, you know, to twist and adjust." And so on. So from that point of view, also with Lawson Barry, you know, I learned that certain things, you know, that you can change certain things only in this case with wine making and also finding the right vineyard, you know? To a beautiful wine, which-- and this is also an eye opener for these people, you know? That's because often they're like this. The only thing they never adapt with ever adapt, because I said, "Okay, you guys can do whatever you do, want to do here in the most." And I wanted to go back to Cork, you know? On Walter's watch, I go, "Oh my God, you know, these people, that I mean, Cork is the-- - Deber was just a devil. - Deber for them. That is the living devil. Oh my God, they-- in the beginning they said, "As closer we came to the boiling day, you know, I got the phone calls." Oh, Ernst, you really want to go back to Cork, and so I said, "Yeah, but what I mean, I sent you already the Corks, and I sent you already the bottles and everything, yeah?" But you know, we in Australia, we can't go back to Cork, you know? Nobody takes us serious anymore, you know? And then the other brother called me and then Peter called me and said, "Yeah, but what do you want to do? I mean, we don't have stelvents, and so, you know, we don't have the bottles, you know? I've sent-- and you have now the tested Corks, you know? We're-- we're-- we're-- we're-- we're-- perfect, you know? And I said, "Oh, no, no, no, we already have the stelvents, so I never really-- okay, that was the only compromise I had to do." And so I mean, I don't care, so I'm not-- so for me, it's not-- that-- yeah. I'm curious to-- in terms of the part-- did you learn anything about finding good partners? Because you've had so many partners over the years, and I'm sure some people have-- the partnerships have evolved, or you've taken a full ownership, or whatever-- what if you learned about finding a good partner for you? Yeah, well, I mean, as I said, a partner has to share, you know? And you see it in the big-- I mean, to be frank, I mean, in this case with Jay, I already knew, you know? Before hand, you know, I met him the first time, '96, and we started in-- in 2009. I always bought his wines. We always met. We had been good friends, and I loved his wines. I shared his vision, you know? He had this old world vision, you know, with the wine making, and even that big company, like Shadda Samishel, and I must say, I'm very lucky here, you know? It could have been gone also different, you know? But I tell you, that was until today, even at least the people who are responsible, you know, like David Bowman now, you know? We saw so many CEOs, but at least all these people said, no, we'll share your vision. We'll like it, what our-- how passionate you are here with-- and the wine makers anyway, you know? I must say, I'm very fortunate. I mean, for 25 years, 26 years now, we're Shadda Samishel, and with such a big company, you know? I mean, huge company. That is not normal, you know? That I really had the luck for 25 years. But I saw the spirit already in the beginning. I must say, a CEO, I mean, I'm such a small guy in these days, you know, who took the whole day time, you know? And listen, and we're talking about, and there was the wine maker with it, and-- oh, it was-- you saw there was something-- there was also a spirit with these guys. They-- I mean, in the old days, these Shadda Samishel people had great people, great wine makers, fantastic, passionate people. And I would say also now, the wine makers, you know, who took over from Bob Baton, so this girl, she's great. They're all, you know? They all want to-- they all have the passion, you know, to renovate also Shadda Samishel again, you know? So in this case, I was lucky. In the other case, like, I mean, you know, in the other case, it's old friends like, you know, Teymo Rodriguez, you know? I know I'm also since more than 30 years, you know? Great guy, you know? And we share-- I mean, we share the passion absolutely together. So from that point of view, we Shadda Samishel, I was very lucky, you know? And so far, I found always the right people. I mean, super lucky with it, you know? But you see it, but you have the feeling. I mean, if you talk to people, you see what is his attention. You know? First, the attention for me is, let's make a great wine, you know? And passion sells, you know? Success comes later, hopefully. Never had a business plan with-- not with a single company. I never had a business plan. It was always the decision, my brother, he is a typical German mechanical engineer. I always asked him, you know, you want to come-- I mean, he's with me. And I always offered him, you know, to join with when I started something, you know? He never trusted me. He said, oh, no, my God, you have a business plan. You just do-- you starting business like throwing dough to the wall and what sticks, sticks, and when it falls off, then, OK, it didn't work. Next thing. But I never had a business plan in my life. Wow. And do your partnerships all have the same kind of structure? Like, is it all 50/50? Or there's just different structures for each one? Well, in Shadows of Michel, it is 40/60, you know? I'm 40, they are 60. And the other joint ventures, it's 50/50, like with batteries, you know? The 10 or the biggest thing is really something, you know? It is equal to, you know? But we do this equal thing. I get the wine from Riyoko, and he get the wine from-- so everybody is responsible. He says, the reason he's doing here, and I sell my Riyoko, you know, what I produce there, you know? And that is a friendship. That's handshake, you know? We have love contracts. Yeah, I mean, the only contract I have so far is with Shadows of Michel. But that is a big company that can't do anything with-- Without lawyers. But all the others, you know, it's all handshake. Yeah, it's a very different, you know? I mean, but I think it is for me still very important. All the relationships also had with distributors. And so, you know, and long-term importers, you know? The one which had been sharing the similar philosophy of me and the work always with handshake, you know? We never had any contracts, you know? And so I still believe in this, you know? I stick to things when I promise something, I stick to it, you know? So far, I was lucky to have partners which had the same kind of attitude, you know? Ethic, ethnic attitude, you know? So, I mean, what do you think are some of the key challenges that you've had in running partnerships that you have with so many? Well, I mean, as I said, the key challenges could be if these two visions, I mean, don't fit, you know? Don't-- somebody want to make only money as much as possible and as fast as possible, which is never my goal, because for me, first the wine, you know? And then I think the success comes later, because if you have a real-- if you do something really convincing, and people see there is a lot of energy with this thing, you know? And so then it's-- it sells itself usually, you know? And so, and challenging is if these two visions don't come together, and I must say I had once this experience that was exactly the way of a friend of mine and English journalists brought me together, villa bulls, you know, with a partner, 50/50, you know? And yeah, well, it took me two years to three years, you know, to find out, you know, that this guy had no vision to see only rock the company, you know? I mean, I've been anyway financing everything, you know? And I thought he was a possibly-- at least he was a good talker, you know? He could sell itself very well, and he sold him to me and stood by my friend, this English journalist, he sold himself very well, you know? But that's it, you know? But then until I found out, oh god, this is a disaster, you know? And so I, I think, well, I mean, I declared bankruptcy, and but bought the company because I have been always believing in this, you know? My brother thought I'm crazy, you know? He said, hey, you lost so much money, and now you're buying this whole fucking shit out of the insolvency? I said, yes, because I believe in it, you know? We can do my great wines, we can be successful there, also, because there is a potential, you know? Great potential to make it, you know? Only my father said, oh, you're crazy, you know? And so, yeah, now it's one of the very successful companies with us, you know? How do you track all of these partnerships? I mean, it sounds like you have a lot, I fingers a lot of pies. How do you make sure that they're on track or doing what you want them to do? Yeah, for example, and that is so very, very important that is what I mean, you need a partner which shares your vision, has the same idea, and so, you know? And I mean, you know, you feel it, also, if you employ somebody, you feel it, is this the right person or not, you know? You barely, you know it, it sounds crazy, but, oh. mostly you know it already after 5-10 minutes, you know. But sadly, you also know after 5-10 minutes, it's not the right person, but you're still starting it because you said, "Oh, possibly it will develop, you know." You should always trust your taste, first taste. By the way, blind tasting the same, you know? Never think too much about it and blind tasting about the wine. Taste it. The first thing is usually 80% right, you know? But it's more that you get driven away because somebody said, "Oh, but it could be, it could be also wine, you know?" Because it doesn't. And so, and then you start thinking too, and then you get driven away, you know? And so from that point of view, yeah, so far, I think you need a bit of that you know people, you know, that you can judge people. And so, and then you have the right people. You can trust that they do. And I must say, like Kirk, you know? So many people, I have always somebody there, you can trust and rely on, you know? He doesn't cheat and I would never cheat them, you know? And so that is very, very important, you know? For sure. Do you see partnerships or collaborations as a growing trend in the wine industry, or do you think it's sort of unique to how you operate? Well, good question. You see a lot of partnerships coming up, you know? And so, you know, for what we definitely, with a lot of people, for different reasons, you know? For me, a partnership is always something where I have a certain idea. And it is not kind of, there's also sometimes gimmicky things, you know, to be frank, you know? But for me, it was always in the beginning, recently, you know? To renovate the recent Renaissance. And do re-sling, for example, and the files doing re-sling then in Washington state, in Australia, everywhere where it's recently grown and also famous for. But for me, this was a natural thing to build the reputation of recent again. I think that helps, you know? If they're famous, recent from Australia, if they're famous, recent from there, I still would love, you know? But I'm getting old now. I'm in no choice. I can do this. But there was always a goal, but never found the right partner, you know? That is very, very important. To do re-sling in Elsa's, you know? Because I think Elsa's, I would do something totally different. I mean, not different there. I would go back to the old style, you know? Which I loved so much, you know? The old style of Olivier's father, Centrum Rational, Leonardo Rational. Oh my god, he just turned 91, I read just recently. His age was very different than his sons. Yeah. Great guy. And that was my first, first, first, illustration reasoning in 85, 84, 5, 6, 87, 88. I still have 88 from his father in the cellar, and they're still great, you know? And then they have been going bigger and richer and more much right is, and super high in alcohol and no acidity anymore. And I thought, again, the same thing, which I thought about, say, about Australia, you know? I'm sure you can find a way to get these old re-slinges back, you know? From, you know? So sometimes, yeah, the problem is sure, we all know, you know, Parker gave very high points to this rich, alzation wines, you know? And people started to make more and more more these wines, you know? And so, but it is still my hardest reasoning, and if it comes to red, it's Pinot Rye, you know? So that is the major two, two grape rites that I concentrate. I find things, you know, if the people start to plant a famous wine from the new world, with a famous wine from the old world, planted together and make a lot of noise, I mean, sure, everybody can do whatever he likes, you know? But I don't understand this, you know? What is this? What should this wine tell me, you know? I have a round from the blue, from the round Shiraz with the Australian famous, Australian Shiraz. What does it tell me? What is it? I decide that they want to have a very high price, you know? There's a lot of different joint ventures, you know? My joint ventures are more, you know? I mean, I have a goal, you know, for me, it was always the reasoning, you know, to make reasoning, the rendered to work on the Renaissance of reasoning. The only thing I said when I'm done of the 50 years or so, I would not get, will ever last, you know? I would love to see that reasoning get the recognition again with like a shardonnay, like Sauvignon Blanc, you know, all the great grape varieties, which are queen of grape varieties, that reasoning is again in the whole fame, you know? And nobody talk about super long, you know? Oh, whatever, you know? There was one book in England, you know? It was called super long, and that was all the leaf brown, you know, all the scat of cheap blue, blue, none, black, tau, or the was all rated there as super long. The most ugly wine was called the super long. Thank you for showing so much information. We'd like to wrap up each episode on a personal note, and we are curious. What is one of the most memorable wire visits that you've gone on and why? Has that stuck with you? Oh, there's a, well, very good question, because I visited so many growers, you know? Because that belonged also to when I started, you know? I was very, very lucky, you know, that stood and figured this, to evangelist, this English evangelist, which was a good friend. He didn't still until today, he has no driver's license, you know? So he needed always somebody who drives him, you know? And I said, oh, Stuart, I drive you, you know? And that was, you know, then the first visits I ever had in my life, you know? And, you know, I wasn't these days the same. You live in the Mosul, you never saw anything else as your own wines, you know? And then you said, oh, I have to do this week, else, I said burgundy, you know? Never been an elders before, you know? Never been burgundy. So we visited whatever was at the first time, boom brush, you know? And, you know, and Mark Raidenwise, all these guys, the old guys, you know, Madame Fala and Google and so, and then we have been going to burgundy, you know? Wizarding, I'm also, you know, dujac in these things. God, I learned so much from these guys, even that it is red wine, but there's always, if you have a great wine, and I think that is, so from that point of view, you're so impressive wineries, you know? But it doesn't matter where you do the wine, you know? That can be a small winery as in a big winery, you know? You can make great wine because at the end it is the vision, you know? If you have this vision and that's the reason the wine starts in your head, if you have a clear idea, what is a great wine? It doesn't matter if it's red or white wine, what is a great wine? It has all certain things combined, you know, which makes it great. It has this kind of, it is not only concentrated, it's complex, the same time elegant, you know? All these things which are contradictions, you know? And that makes this kind of, you know, compact wine, you know? And that's not matter. And you can learn it also from a red wine, the same. Trinking a red wine, you see all the complexity that elegance, the same time elegance and all these things, you see them. And then you say, this is, you have to do it also with your wine, with your white wine, you know? And therefore, wineries are for me not that really important. I think it is more what they do there, you know? And then you see it from garages, you know? And you see that you are fancy wineries in Spain, you know, where they have famous artists. I mean, super impressive, you know? And so, I mean, if you have money and so, especially in the in the old days, you know? And so, but funny thing is you have been visiting so many growers, you know? And then you're coming from a shake, you know? To a most fancy winery and the guy in the shake, you know? I know when I visit the first time William and Sella, that was my favorite. Now, these guys, you know? Yes, very god, they look like truck drivers, you know? And this old basket press and this kind of wooden shake and we always saw a ball. That was 87 or 88 when I visited them the first time with Stuart too. But hallelujah, you know? But then the wine and to that no clue and these guys possibly didn't had a clue too, what they doing there, you know? We all fought by God, what they doing there, you know? And then you taste the wine and say, "Fucking hell, what are these guys doing with nothing?" And then you have this fancy winery, you know, which was just built, you know, from the Rothschild and, you know, the with Mondavi, you have this fancy also nice, very good, you know? Also correct, you know? But you see, the winery itself doesn't produce a great wine. The people, the people behind it, they produce a great wine. And they can do it in the most shabby garage, you know? Or they can do it in the most fancy place, you know? It's unbelievable, you know? And that is the fascinating, that you have to see, I mean, because we know, a lot of stories, wine lives from stories, you know? But sometimes, you know, you, I mean, you hear stories, you know? Where you think, "Oh, fucking hell, I was once, once I wasn't bored, oh, and this guy in bored, oh, we have been possibly 10 kilometers, 15 kilometers away from the garland, you know?" And then he had been talking for two hours how the waves of the garland, you know, shapes his wines in the barrel, you know? And I said, "Wow, my god, I mean, possibly, I mean, whatever, there must be journalists who love these kind of stories, you know?" And so, you know, "That come on, you know?" And I have got the impression now, the stories nowadays, I have to get a more and more weird, that you get any attention anymore, you know? That the people instead tasting the wine, And why is it that? to taste the wine. And a great wine has always the same complexity. And so, if people start to interpret things into it, because the waves of the Goron, whatever, he said, he shapes them, and so whatever. And so, from that point of view, I saw a lot of great wineries, beautiful wineries, I mean, packing design like L, you know, but on the other hand, as also dirty little old sellers, and one of the most amazing wines came from these dirty barrels, you know. I mean, Rias is such an example, you know, it would think, oh my god, you know. And so, from that point of view, that's fascinating. I mean, here to find here, that is the more interesting for me is here, to find the common thing, you know, how can these two extremes, you know, one is super clean, super design, and god, five winemakers working on this thing, you know, and there's this old guy, and then goes there, here and there, so through the mountain, that's it, you know. I don't know how that's this fit together, you know, and that is for me much more fascinating as the winery, you know. So, interesting to take away the wineries that's really the people behind it, and the hard ribos of matter is the, yeah. Well, we want to thank you, Arnie, for sharing so much information about your partnerships. Yes, obviously, thank you. All right. I know, sorry, I mean, I get always driven away too, you know. That's great good stories. Question the short way. We do that coming in at this minute. You know, if you're going to get a good, hey, thanks, we know we want to appreciate the time. If you're in the area, come along and visit us, you know, you will have a good time. We'll tell you, you know, we open a lot of bottles, you know, the lot of great things to see and to discover. You know, we'll be out there for sure. Don't worry. Okay, you have to come, you know, you have to come. Hey listeners, if you love the show, support it by buying a show notes book. They not only compile two years of episodes, but also organizes them into themes for better learning. They can be an inspiration to listen to or relisten to an episode or provide a quick reference of the key learnings from a show. Go to xchatto.com and click on the store page for easy links to buy. Thanks for listening. Cheers.