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Speaker 5Now, we met over the airways on a radio feature on BBC5 Live with Nicky Campbell, and we were talking about perfect parenting and whether it exists, which we all, of course, know doesn't. Zoe has a real gift for taking the much-talked-about concept of self-care, which I think we all kind of rile against sometimes, but framing it around this notion of finding peace of mind. I personally, genuinely will never talk about self-care in the same way, having had this conversation. Zoe is the founder of MotherKind, a self-empowerment platform for modern mums. Through MotherKind, Zoe coaches mothers of all backgrounds, from CEOs to full-time mums, on how to navigate the huge challenges of modern motherhood. Zoe hosts the incredibly successful MotherKind podcast, which covers topics from self-care, career, notion, mental health and parenting, and actually so much more. I believe that in life, there are times when you come across people who you just know are going to be instrumental in changing your perspective on life, and I'm really not overplaying it when I say this about Zoe. She has read, trained and pulled together all the research and best practice on navigating motherhood with self-awareness, and her insights on intergenerational cycles, conditioning and what every child craves, are tempered with super practical things we can do with this newfound awareness. I genuinely wish Zoe had been around when I was raising my two children, as I know I would have found peace of mind in my own parenting so much sooner for having known her. You're in for a real treat. My give this week is some more information on Zoe and how you can connect. As usual, all you need to do is head over to my free resource library, drmaryhand.com forward slash library, where you'll find the link to download the resource. All you need to do is pop in your email address and you'll get instant access not only to this week's resource, but all the other free resources across all my podcast episodes. As ever, if you have enjoyed this episode, I would love it if you could follow and review this podcast so that others can find us and we can spread the love. So until next time, here's Zoe. So Zoe, I want to dive straight in, and particularly around a quote that you have on your website that I just love, I really, really love. So the quote is, the most precious inheritance that parents can give their children is their own happiness.
Speaker 6Well, I think, you know, I think partly that's because my experience is that I had incredibly loving parents to us, but they weren't particularly happy in their own, their own lives. And I think I can really see the impact that that had on me now as an adult and, you know, decades of therapy and healing work to unpack it all. And so it just really speaks to this idea that I think when we become parents, we think all I want is for my child to be happy. And we put all of our energy and our focus there is actually, you know, the thousands of hours of study and research and podcasting that I've done on this all tells me the same thing, which is that one of the most powerful ways we can help our children be happy is by making ourselves as happy as we can be. And that doesn't mean that we're, you know, dancing around with rainbows and glitter. And it's a far more spiritual idea of happiness, I guess, which is can we make peace with ourselves? Can we, you know, look at maybe what went on in our in our own childhoods and see our blind spots and work on those? And can we grow as a person and a parent and allow our children to see us doing that as opposed to ignoring ourselves and putting all of our energy and focus onto our children? And I'm willing them to be happy, whereas, in fact, being unhappy ourselves. So really, that quote speaks to me just on every level, because it's how I try to it's how I try to parent and live. And it's what I talk about a lot in my in my work is actually what if what if part of parenting was about raising ourselves a bit as well, about looking at our own lives? And are we living the type of life that we we want to live? And are we are we happy? Do we experience peace of mind and joy? And all those amazing things? So, yeah, that's why that's why it's on my website, because it means a lot to me, that quote.
Speaker 5And I love that it's you use this word about peace of mind, because it isn't about being this super I am. But actually, it's just peace, isn't it? It's that peace of mind.
Speaker 6Yeah, exactly. And I feel like, you know, particularly as modern parents, there are so many things that try to rob us of our peace of mind. Every single minute of every single day, you know, comparison on social media, what the chat is like. The chatter is at the at the school gates, you know, our work, our careers, the pressure to be and do and have and to look a certain way and buy a certain thing. You know, constantly we're being invited in this modern world to be robbed of our peace of mind. So it's actually an incredible act of resilience, you know, almost rebelliousness that they actually know. I am going to know who I am. I'm going to know what my values are as a person and a parent. And I am going to stay true to that. And I think that is arguably, from my perspective, be interesting to get yours. You know, one of the most powerful things that we can do as parents is to know who we are, what's important to us. And can we stay true to that?
Speaker 5Well, I think it's crucial. And, you know, the other quote that you've got about 80 percent of parenting is modeling. It's crucial. If that if those are the qualities that we want to instill and we want to raise in our children and they're watching us, if we do that, then they are going to get that is the greatest inheritance, surely.
Speaker 6Yeah, I think so. I think so. And, you know, it's hard sometimes to that. There's two sides when, you know, when I talk about this to the modeling and also how can we have the idea without putting pressure on ourselves and without using that as another thing to beat ourselves up about. But I really think it's more on this idea. You know, if we have limited resources, what I'm really saying is let's put some of those resources, of course, to our children. I don't think many parents. Particularly mothers struggle with that aspect of mothering. I rarely meet a mother who says, I really struggle to to care about my child and to give to them and to worry about them and to think about them. I rarely meet that mother, but every single day I meet mothers who say, I really struggle to focus on me and what's going on for me and how I feel and how I'm showing up and what I'm doing in my life. So really what I'm saying is with that time and that resource that we have, of course, we're going to be giving to our children, but also. And we have to give to ourselves. And I think that becomes, you know, you bump up against so much fascinating conditioning when you start to try and do that. You know, as a mother, when you start to try and rest a little bit or maybe you start to change a mindset that you've had for decades, when you start to identify that you have an inner critic and you try to change that, you will bump up against so much amazing. I call it amazing because I think whenever we notice our conditioning. It's not OK for me to rest. Who am I to deserve, you know, moments of joy and happiness or a career that I love? That's all incredible information that we can we can learn about, OK, where did that come from this idea that it's not OK for me to rest? You know, would I want that for my child? Of course not. OK, so how can I give that to myself? So it's parenting our children and, you know, parenting ourselves as well. Self parenting, which I think is just absolutely fascinating. And not talked about enough, which is really how I came to start Motherkind and the work that I do. because I had my little girl nearly seven years ago now. And what it brought up in me was all my stuff. It wasn't really about her. Of course, it's hard having a baby. But what it really brought up in me was my fears, my control, my perfectionism, my low self-worth, my comparison. And I started to read all these parenting books and none of them were helping me because they were just telling me about, you know, the naughty step and sleep routines and bottle or breast. And I was thinking, I'm not really struggling with any of that. To me, that was small fry compared to what was going on to me internally. So I turned to other sources. I started to turn to people like Dr. Gabor Marte and Dr. Gordon Neufeld. And I started to learn about generational cycles and really dive into understanding trauma and loads of fascinating concepts. And that actually started to help me. I was like, oh, I understand this now. I understand why this little being is bringing all this stuff up in me. And I did it at the time, you know, the mother kind of started five years ago now. It's very different now. I'm really excited. It's different now. But at the time, there was just not that conversation in the parenting space, particularly not in the podcasting space. So that's why I decided to start the podcast and to start having these conversations about our experience as the parent, as the mother. I wanted to focus on mothers because, of course, that was my personal experience. So that really is what fed into it. And it was really different than what I was seeing out there when I was looking for content and workshops. A lot of it was around what I should wear as a mother, what buggy I should buy. And I just felt this is so unhelpful to me. You know, to some extent, brilliant. Everyone wants a good buggy. But actually, I feel crippled with my perfectionism here. And this ball of emotion that I seem to be living with, a.k.a. a toddler, is triggering. You know, all I wanted to do was shut down her feelings the whole time because it was triggering so much in me because, of course, I wasn't allowed my own feelings. So. You know, the moment I got, aha, this is an opportunity for me to heal, for me to start to get more comfortable with my own feelings, to enable my kids to have theirs. I was like, wow, this is transformational. Parenting is transformational if we see it that way. Right. If we don't see it that way, then, of course, we're down the this is why mommy drinks gin route, which is the complete opposite track of where I'm coming from. Right. So. So I was thinking, this is actually a massive, amazing gateway. And it's really hard. And I wish there were some more support. And that's, you know, really what I try to do is support parents who are interested in, I guess, that slightly different, slightly deeper conversation about their experience of parenting and how we can use it as fuel to completely transform how we feel about ourselves and then completely transform how we pair and how our children feel about themselves. And I like talking about cycle breaking because I think it's absolutely fascinating how we can do that once we have that awareness. I don't remember the question.
Speaker 5No, no. God, that's just I think that that is what's so incredibly powerful about what you do and why it's so important. And I would say, Zoe, it's probably still not something that we talk about enough. I think it's a huge, huge bit. Can you expand a little bit more? Because I know what you mean. But maybe I think probably as a lot of people listening to this who won't understand this concept of generational cycles and why it is so important that we understand that to look at shifting and breaking it. Yeah. And then, you know, I think it's so important that we understand that
Speaker 6there's loads of there's loads of ways into looking at this. But I am trained in coaching, so I'm not actually trained in therapy or psychotherapy. So the way that I look at this is really practically through some really simple coaching exercises, which is when you become a parent thinking about what was it from my childhood that I would love to repeat into the next generation? This is a super simple coaching exercise that anyone can do with sort of 10, 15 minutes. What was it? OK, well, my parents, you know, were amazing at helping me get my schoolwork done. I really want to repeat that. They were amazing at making sure that we always had, you know, fresh meals every evening and they were cooked and, you know, they took us on some amazing. I really, really want to repeat that into how I how I parent and our family. And then on the other side, what were some things that you didn't experience and you don't want to repeat? Well, actually, you know, the emotional landscape was pretty barren. You might realize, which I think is a really common experience. We didn't tend to talk about feelings. I felt very lonely as a child with my feelings. And actually, that fed into me feeling really anxious. And actually, that that led me feeling into like I had to numb my feelings. And I found myself in my 20s drinking too much. You know that that might be some of the things that you write down. OK, so there we have it on a piece of paper. And it's super clear. You've got that list. And of course, you might add some things to that list over time as you realize and remember, it's not about perfection and unturning every step. It's just making a start. You might have three bullets on each side. OK, cool. So how can I make sure with intention that I do repeat the things that I want to repeat? How can I make sure that that happens? And actually, if you want to create a deeper relationship with the generation above you, you can share that. You know, mom, dad, you did such an amazing job at taking us on these incredible holidays. And, you know, they're really precious moments that I have of my childhood. So I'm going to make sure that I take my two kids on holidays like you did. You know, thank you for that. It's really it can be really beautifully connected. Conversely. OK, so I've recognized that actually my feelings weren't validated. How am I going to learn about this? And this is where the Mother Kind podcast comes in, because it's essentially a school for parents who need to learn about things they weren't taught. Right. I'm going to go find, you know, a Mother Kind podcast or one of your episodes, Mary Han, about feelings. And I'm going to learn about my emotional self and how to connect my feelings. And we live in a world where there's tons of amazing resources about that. I'm going to practice that for myself. For a month, say, how do I feel? Checking with how I feel, allowing my feelings, noticing what happens when I cry. You know, whenever I would cry, I had this voice that said, who are you to cry? I had that for decades and I don't have it now because I've done so much work on connecting with my feelings. So then knowing that by us doing that and working on that, we will then when our child comes to us crying, we will not say to them, which may have been said to us, what are you crying about? It's just a blue cup. Don't be ridiculous. We might say, huh, that looks like you're really sad about the blue cup. I can see that's really upsetting you. I get why that would really upset you. You want the blue cup and mummy's giving you the red. What are we going to do about it? That is generational cycle breaking. People think it's like this huge thing and you have to go to decades of psychotherapy. It's not how I see it. I think it's because I'm trained in coaching. So I'm trained in making things really practical, really accessible, really simple for people. That's how I see it. So I've really had to learn, okay, about perfectionism. I've had to learn. I've had to go back to school. I've had to engage some specialist therapists. I've done some specialist training in it, which ultimately resulted in me creating a course for it for my community. So that's essentially what it is. It's about, am I prepared to go back to school a bit to learn some things that I didn't learn in my childhood so that I don't repeat it? Which I know, and I
Speaker 5love that it is so supremely practical in the way that you approach it. And I think you're absolutely right. It doesn't, you don't need to, you know, this isn't about diminishing therapists that do the work, but you don't need that extensive years and years. It's that acknowledgement of the things that happened that your parents did, which you love and you wish to repeat. And that recognition of the gaps in the ones that you don't. I guess you've probably answered the question already, Zoe, but so this tends to show up as we become parents. This isn't something that, or do you think that the work can begin to happen before we're even parents?
Speaker 6Or like even, you know, when you're doing like a physical challenge, you can do all the training in the world, but actually it's when you're in it that the rubber really hits the road. So I think, you know, we hear about this, don't we? So many people joke about the parent that they thought they would be, and then they become a parent. You know, I'm never going to shout at my kids. And then, you know, two years in, you find you're just shouting 80% of the time. So my personal view on this, and I've heard different views on it, and lots of people say different things. This is my experience. With myself and my community is that it's, it's, you have to have that experience. You have to have that little trigger. I would call it in front of you, AKA your child, often your toddler, which is when it really kicks in, in, in order to begin doing the work. And I think it's another important point around, you know, some people will find when they start to look at this, that there are areas where they absolutely need professional support. So as you said, I'm not, I'm not diminishing that, but you only get to that point where you realize what professional support you need, what type of professional support by starting with, with a really simple coaching exercise, like I'm suggesting. And, you know, I actually hand off tons of, of my community and clients to specialist therapists in different areas, you know, which I would never, ever, ever go near because that's not, that's not what I'm trained in. So, you know, if you need a trauma specialist or a lot of people realize and uncover there's been abuse in their, in their history when they become parents themselves, you know, that is absolutely when you might need to go and get a, go and get specialist support. But you only get there by starting with answering those those questions for yourself
Speaker 5yeah and I think you know what you talked about about this idea of self-parenting I think is so crucial and I've maybe I've been slightly naive I've not really sort of thought of it that way but it's so crucial we talk about us parenting our children but there's that self-parenting of us too that is so crucial as we navigate this absolutely
Speaker 6because you know we have to fill those gaps it's like a it's like a coloring picture isn't it like we'll be given we'll we'll arrive at adulthood with you know maybe half of the picture colored in and half of the picture not colored in and every single person's picture and map will look totally different you know depending on their experiences and their parenting so if we realize actually I have a I have a really a white spot here a big gap around being kind to myself for example now you know probably your parent is not going to step in when you're in your 30s and parent you through that that's probably not going to happen so therefore who's going to do it you're going to have to become your own parent in that way say okay I've got a skills gap here I really don't know how to be kind to myself I have a raging critic and I just beat myself up about everything I'm going to have to parent myself through this and and and you know just as you talk about so much Mary Han you know being a kind loving parent is okay so validating yourself and being kind to yourself validating that this is really real for you what are we going to do about it it's it's becoming that inner coach for yourself in a parent in a coach whatever words work for you that is what growth looks like as opposed to you know the alternative which I think you know so many people unfortunately can't find if it's got too loud you know you have to numb it by keeping really busy particularly with the critic you know keeping really busy or numbing it with with drinking sometimes or you know other things like that so I think it's really important to have that inner coach and I think that's one of the other things that we do to to avoid it because it can feel so overwhelming to even recognize it or become aware of it so it's definitely not simple and it's nuanced and it's complex but I think the idea of giving
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Speaker 6in adulthood what perhaps we lacked from our own childhood you talk about scaffolding a lot you know where where are the where are the I don't you know where is the scaffolding where you got a few poles missing and how do I build that scaffolding for myself in adulthood that's
Speaker 5what it is yeah and that's just so and I think it's such an important piece that we repeatedly miss and not do so how do we you know I'm sure there'll be people genuinely listening to this god zoe I wish you'd been around when I was parenting I could have saved myself a whole load of angst and guilt very early on but so there'll be people absolutely know for sure that are thinking zoe you are absolutely speaking to where I'm at how do people begin to start to take those first steps in being able to recognize you know obviously that exercise that you've talked about I think is brilliant in terms of the generational cycles and and that sort of thing but how do they even begin to recognize and be really honest with themselves that actually I do have this narrative about resting and taking care of myself or prioritizing my needs how do they begin that bit
Speaker 6it's typically looking at where you're struggling the most just like we would with our children you know just the same where are you struggling the most are you feeling for example super resentful towards your partner okay let's start there are you feeling just absolutely burnt out because you are pushing yourself thinking that you're some sort of robot without human needs okay let's start there are you completely trapped in that stuck in work that is sucking the life out of you and you but you just want to change there or are you feeling like you never get a rest you always just feel on and maybe that's leading you to feel anxious or so I would say it's start wherever you feel the most out of as a coach I call it alignment but sometimes that word doesn't mean the thing is it's where you're feeling the most pressure the most stress and the most away from where you want to be so that can be a really powerful place to start yeah okay how do I want to feel how do I want to feel and I remember doing this exercise a long time ago now and it felt like a it felt like a joke from how I felt to how I wanted to feel and of course now I do feel how I want to feel which is just incredible most of the time but how do I want to feel and where am I feeling most distance from that and how can I start to feel like I want to feel like I want to feel like I want to feel like I want to feel like I want to feel like I want to feel really good where are you on each of those areas and you could start with perhaps the area that is either scored the lowest or the area that you think okay if I really focused on this area in my life that would make the biggest difference to how I
Speaker 5feel yeah I think that that's a really powerful thing and I guess how do how do we avoid getting caught up in this so you know I talk about self-care a lot but I don't do anything that you do Zoe around the unpicking and helping parents you know mothers sort of discover that but what I do tend to hear time and time again is this almost and I'm guessing it's at a superficial level it's this sort of well if I just had more time everything would be fine now how do we get that really scratch that itch and really get deep so that we stop this sort of well if I just had a bit more help or if my other half helped out more or if I didn't have this problem with my child that I'm having to constantly deal with so that we can really get to the actual nuts and bolts of what the issue is that we need to work on yeah I
Speaker 6mean they're absolutely right those those clients of yours because they're probably thinking that self-care is an hour-long bubble bath or an hour long yoga class or a walk or a run all of which require often time and money which is as parents particularly as mothers we don't tend to have I see self-care is as differently than that I see self-care is really caring about my experience it's really caring about my experience and what can I do in order to shift how I feel and how I show up and how I am in my life and often the self-care I don't even use that phrase very often actually because I get exactly the same it triggers in people this idea of you know products and time and spa breaks and it's none of that it's really like what are the shifts that I can make in my mindset so for example you know the mother who's saying there's no time there's no time there's no time there's no time I'm too rushed I'm too rushed maybe her self-care is is thinking about okay am I using boundaries in my life why am I so rushed why is my life feeling like I'm a hundred feet behind constantly I wake up feeling like I'm behind I wake up running my to-do list through my head what is that about and even just answering that question is incredibly powerful because what you might start to very quickly uncover is huh I'm saying yes to everything I've always done that gosh maybe I need to learn to say no and then you're going to bump up against all your conditioning okay well I'm not going to be liked what's going to happen if I say no I'm never going to get that work opportunity again and that's all amazing to notice all that conditioning because that was exactly the thing that was driving you into all the busyness in the first place or you might realize her you know growing up we were always really busy and I did seven clubs a week and I've really got this idea that my worth is about how much I produce and how much I do so no wonder now I feel like there's no time for me because actually I've never I've never experienced that so it's moving away from feeling like we're choiceless in our circumstances to feeling more empowered and ultimately the work that I do is empowering mothers to think okay let's empower you this isn't you know a bubble bath is not going to fix a thing it might feel nice in the time but it's really not nor is a yoga class to be honest nor is a run what's going to fix this and hopefully transform it for you is thinking what is it that is making me feel this way where does that come from quick glance back we're not i'm not doing therapy with people so we're not digging and digging and digging and digging that's not i'm not trained in that but we're doing quick glance back where did that come from huh i understand now okay how are we going to change that and i think it's in that change that the support from platform like mother kind is absolutely crucial because when we start to change that's when it gets really really really hard because of course these neural pathways are like you know deep deep deep plowed grooves in our brain of how we work and operate so it can feel like trying to turn an oil tanker around trying to change you know if you ask a mother who has been basing her worth on her productivity and how she looks and how things look and you know to sit down for 20 minutes and do a simple breathing exercise that will feel incredibly i'm understating that incredibly hard so i think it's understanding that you know it's the awareness where am i struggling the most using some of those simple tools that i've already shared and then knowing that change is really hard it's not as simple as oh okay i've been running my whole life you know my worth has been based on productivity i'm going to change that now it's not that simple unfortunately it's going to take a lot of work it's going to take a lot of effort it's going to be so worth it also remembering that you're modeling that of course to your children it is going to be so worth it but it's going to be hard so the key with any change is to start really really really small so with that client that you were just describing mary hann about you know there's no time there's no time if i was working with her i'd be saying how could we build in five minutes to just be still today that's what i'm doing wouldn't be talking about hour-long anythings i would be talking about five minutes i'd be saying okay how can we practice where can we practice say no to something that feels not not big you know i'm not going to get you to say no to your mum-in-law who wants to come and stay for a week and she's not going to help i'm not we're not going to practice on that straight away that's too big where can we practice a really simple small no could it be with your partner where you feel quite loved and supported and you know he's asked you to do something extra this week or he's said that he can't do the school run that he normally does could we practice there i'm saying actually i need you to do this for me so so it's about starting really small because change is hard yeah oh my god i love i well i don't
Speaker 5know about anyone else but i love the way that you've explained that and it is that conditioning and it is it's almost like that constantly asking why why do i value why why do i have to be super productive and actually so much of it comes from this conditioning it's what we've learned can you just expand a little bit more zoe around what conditioning is so that people kind of i think there's probably most people are probably got a basic understanding of it but it is a really powerful way in determining who we then
Speaker 6become yeah so as as children and you know clearly i don't need to tell you this right now we have we have three core needs which is to be seen to be loved and to be validated so children are super smart and we're really adaptive so essentially we will change our behavior in order to be seen loved and validated from our parents based on what they value so if we are in a household where to be seen loved and validated we get loads of praise when we come home with an a or we come home with an award or we come home if that can happen this isn't just one-offs this is like consistent over years and years and years and years and years you are likely to develop a neural pathway in your brain conditioning programming there's lots of different words for it use whichever word feels right for you you're likely to develop this condition which is so i get seen validated and loved when i achieve simple so then you're likely to go into your adult life with a desire to want to be very high achieving you're likely to to have some perfectionist tendencies you're likely to be someone who is is will push themselves to the point of burnout because we because everything that we do as children is adaptive we're really adaptive as children aren't we so everything that we do is to get the love of our caregivers so that is what i mean by conditioning and understanding what that conditioning is or that programming is i think is is really really really it's it's fascinating and it's really important because then we give ourselves a choice about it as opposed to being unconscious about it where we're just running through our lives and we're not aware actually that this conditioning and you know they talk about you know studies show us and all our our behavior is driven from these unconscious beliefs it's unconscious programming so essentially until we become aware of it we'll be like that client you described mary hann is going i'm too busy i'm too busy i'm too busy i'm too stressed i'm too busy i'm too stressed which that's just unconscious programming that person isn't realizing actually it would be really fascinating for me to look into this and could i could i empower myself could i make a different choice could i make a different choice and the answer might be i'm not ready yet that's totally fine of course everyone will come to their own change and transformation and you know many awakenings and awarenesses totally on time for them i really think that's true but yeah understanding our conditioning and programming for me was just i i think i i i tend to like putting a positive spin on it and i think that's because i don't have any trauma with a capital t so i find it fascinating and interesting i think if you're someone who has who has very dark you know experiences in your childhood it wouldn't be fascinating interesting potentially that's absolutely where you would need to get support to unpack some of these things but for the majority of people who have traumas you know with little t's where these are you know these are sort of scratches not get not huge wounds it's something that we can absolutely work through on our own maybe with a supportive partner maybe with a coach someone like me or even just listening to my podcast you know there's so much support and resource to understanding this but yeah once you understand your programming it gives you a lot of freedom and that's really what what most
Speaker 5of us want definitely oh my god i would imagine there are lots of people going oh my goodness me zoe's just explained it in such an easy way well i think
Speaker 6this is one of the gifts that i i have is you know because i'm not i'm not trained in in psychology i have not done decades of psychotherapy training i've spoken to all the best people in the world who have right so what i'm actually one of my gifts is is that i'm really good at taking tons of this complex process i'm really good at taking tons of this complex process you know study and information and understanding and trying to distill it in a really simple way simply because i am a really busy mother of two also trying to do a lot of this work myself so it has to be simple and in a way i've done a lot of the hard work for people because i've spent i should have done a phd honestly i spent thousands of hours reading you know gosh tomes on psychoanalysis and psychotherapy and trauma and generational and and what i try to do is simplify it make it really practical and applicable for people because that's what i think i think we need isn't it as busy
Speaker 5parents totally and that's your superpower because you've disseminated it all you've made it simple because i think that that probably is often the block and the barrier to us as mothers doing the work because it feels overwhelming we read in lots of different books and you know i'm never ever going to use self-care in the context now having spoken to you because of course it just triggers all of these connotations about a bath and all these other things but i think it's really important and i think it's really important and i think it's really important for us as women to be able to understand what's going on and to be able to understand what's going on in our lives which is you say are ultimately not going to fix what the conditioning and the patterns that we keep perpetuating again and again and again
Speaker 6no it's that that it it won't that's like sticking you know a sticking plaster over you know a sort of river trying to stop it you know it just it it it won't it will it will give a short-term feeling of relief hopefully although often you know if you're running a strong critic and you know you're running a strong critic and you know you're running a strong critic and you know you're running a strong critic and you know you're running a strong critic and you know you're running a strong critic and you know you're running a strong critic and you try and get in a bubble bath for an hour it will be torture it will be torture because because that that thinking will just be stuck with you so it won't even feel good often and the same with massages so many people say to me you know i crave a massage i crave that tender touch and i i crave it and then i lie on that bed and all i have is just ruminating thoughts my mind is rushing with you know it's it's it's not enjoyable so i think it's really important to have that kind of i think that's something way deeper than that we have to get to around the conversation which is real self-care is actually self-awareness isn't it it's having the courage to be like okay what am i going to do to be aware of what's going on for me and and what are some of the things i want to change that is real self-care it's not yeah it's not a spa day even though they're they're lovely i'm not i'm not going to deny anyone a spa day but it's not it's not going to shift the needle at any meaningful long-term way for you
Speaker 5no and especially if we go back to what we said you know what you said right at the beginning about this finding peace we can't find peace if we can't stop that chatter whilst we're taking that
Speaker 6bath exactly exactly it's like meditation for lots of people you know when i first started doing it i was like this is hell what is this it was awful because of course all that stuff that i've been busy numbing and running from i'd try and sit still and it would all come up so yeah i think I think it's just taking it in really small slow manageable increments because unfortunately we don't get to press pause on our lives as parents in order to unpack all of this you know we also have you know work cost of living crisis school you know children potentially you need extra support you know we might be going through a divorce or a breakup or marriage you know there's just life doesn't get to stop to do all of this so we have to do it in such a way that feels really simple and accessible and is always additive is always feeling okay i can see the benefit in this
Speaker 5yeah yeah and as you say it's breaking it down into small manageable pieces and we can find as you said when you gave that example of you know how you'd work with our with our busy mummy it's like let's find five minutes let's start there yeah yeah
Speaker 6actually with some clients i've started them on two minutes particularly if i have a high achieving client they hate that they hate it they're like what's the point of doing this i don't know what's the point of doing this i don't know what because of course they want me to give them some eight hour 20 step plan that they can get a gold star in because they're looking for that you know they're running that program of achievement validation so yeah sometimes i'll do that with a bit of a wry smile you know i'll say your homework for this week is two minutes every day for you and of course you know that's really achievable and when we start to achieve things it's called habit stacking you know when we can start to achieve things we start to then be able to stack on bigger and bigger and bigger changes that is how change works change does not happen in one big thing that we do and we're one and done it just never ever ever happens that way change happens by tiny small increments of stacking habits on top of
Speaker 5each other which i just i think that's such a lovely and powerful thing to really keep ourselves focused on because quite often we we lurch as parents i think to the sort of feeling that we and then we're back to well it doesn't work i've tried that and it doesn't it doesn't do anything for me so let's just go back to what i've been doing habitually yeah
Speaker 6and it's the same it's the same with parenting you know sometimes i feel like the amount of parenting advice is incredible because there's loads of really good stuff like you and a few others that i really respect and love and i think it can be really challenging because i think people can think okay i'm going to try this thing you know and it's like kids we're not going to do it this way anymore we're it's just in my experience it's just not how it works it's like changing one tiny thing at a time learning from it what what did that work what did we learn okay is that something we want to carry on with okay let's maybe increase that idea or actually no that didn't work that didn't work for me and so i'm going to try a different idea but yeah i think when we try and just change everything or throw everything out and that's very that that comes from a big place of ego you know particularly around new year's resolutions that's why 90 percent new year's resolutions never ever come come into fruition because we write these huge things from a place of ego and you know i'm going to do this and this and this and this and this and this and this and of course it's totally impossible so no one would ever write new year's resolution you know i'm going to sit down for two minutes and take some breaths no one would ever write that as new year's resolution because it doesn't feel it doesn't feel impactful enough and yet that's probably one of the most impactful tidy changes that so many of us could make yeah
Speaker 5i think and i just think that that's probably the perfect sort of concept and thing to be thinking about to sort of end the podcast with is this it isn't about making huge changes it is about doing something you know a small level but being consistent and then being able to kind of stack that zoe thank you so oh my god i could talk to you for hours and i think we need you back to talk about other bits and pieces too thank you so so much for your time today oh
Speaker 6no i've loved it thank you so much at harmony bank we believe that better happens together
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