Financing Climate and Nature Together: AIIB’s Climate Strategy in Brazil and Beyond

You're listening to Climate Rising, an official podcast of Harvard Business Schools, Business, and Environment Initiative. These are really ultimately public-private partnerships. You always need a public part, I think, when you invest in nature or nature as infrastructure. But what I think we can learn from the experience of public-private partnerships in infrastructure finance for the climate, the nature of space is that you can also use the private sector to get in both the skills, the resources, and also innovation into this space. And there are very specific contractual forms that we use for PPP finance, for traditional infrastructure that we can translate to nature's infrastructure and to climate adaptation and mitigation. This is Climate Rising, a podcast from Harvard Business School, and I'm your host, Mike Toffal, a professor here at HBS. Join by my co-host for the Global South Series, Vikram Gandhi, Senior Lecturer at HBS. Today, we're exploring the role of development finance in accelerating climate action across emerging markets. Our guest is Eric Bergloff, Chief Economist at the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank, or AIIB, one of the world's leading multilateral banks focused on infrastructure and climate finance. Eric's going to talk with us about AIIB's work with the Brazilian Ministry of Finance on their climate and sustainability strategy. We'll talk about the key takeaways from COP30, Brazil's climate ambitions, and how institutions like AIIB are contributing to climate finance across the Global South. Here's our conversation with the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank's Chief Economist, Eric Bergloff. Eric, thank you for joining us here on Climate Rising. Thank you for having me. So let's begin, if we could, with a brief introduction of yourself and your role as Chief Economist, and a little bit about how you got there. I am the first Chief Economist at the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. I landed here in the middle of Covid in 2020. I have sort of a recovering academic in and out of academia and also had a previous stint at the European Bank through construction and development. And what led you to actually take the position at the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank? I had always had an interest in China. I also had an interest in these multilateral development banks. I think they are really unique animals, if you want, and the opportunity to be there at the beginning of the development banks' existence. Actually, when I came to the EBRD, the European Bank Reconstruction Development, it was about 15 years old. And I remember talking to many my colleagues who had been there from the beginning and it started very exciting. So all that came together, of course, overcoming the hurdle of Covid was another story. But it has really delivered what I hope when I decided to come here. Great, tell us a little bit about development banks. What are they? quasi-government, are they quasi-private, are they fully government? And what role do they play that's different from a typical commercial bank? We have 110 members from all around the world. So these are countries that are shareholders. They come together on a constitution that describes what the bank does. And they have to agree. And basically, most decisions are made by consensus. We have an interesting ownership structure with about 25% China, 25% Europe, and then 50% the rest of the world. And really, for me, the most interesting part of this is the rest of the world. Because you get a very different sense of the global conversation in our board. And for example, the one I remembered from the EBRD. And yours, in particular, focused on infrastructures at a common focus of all of these types of banks? Well, I think most of them have infrastructure as part of what they're doing. But our focus is indeed very much on infrastructure. We have a pretty broad definition of infrastructure in the sense that we also include social infrastructure. There's something that has come in a bit later, actually doing COVID. That we realized that we had not done anything on health before COVID. And suddenly in COVID, we ended up doing almost everything related to COVID. So we were looking at the health as a way to think more broadly about infrastructure. And now we also have done this thinking around nature as infrastructure, which is maybe something we can come back to later, which is really looking at nature as the most important infrastructure that we have for sustaining life on Earth and all economic activity ultimately, of course, depends on nature. Yeah, well, that's a great segue to what I was just about to ask you about, which is, so our podcast focuses on business and climate change. Infrastructure, of course, will be affected by climate change and has impacts on climate change. But what's the interest of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank on climate change? This is our number one corporate strategy objective. And when we took our corporate strategy, actually, about the same time as when I arrived at the AIV, we have four targets. And the number one target was to have 50% climate finance by 2025 this year. And actually, last year we had, I think, 67%, so we are really overachieving this target. We also have ambitions to be 50% private or non-sovereign, which we call it, by 2030. So it's a very much a realization that we cannot do this just with public funding. This has to happen also with private finance, and we have disadvantages that we have is under one roof. So we can deal with both private companies and governments under the same institution. Could you perhaps elaborate when AIV makes an investment or a loan? What are the metrics in the context of climate? What are the metrics you use, both financial and an impact or what impact it might be having? And how is that decision-making process work in a multilateral development bank? Yeah, so this is, as I said, this is a methodology agreed among the MDB. So we are looking at what is the effect on the carbon footprint, how does this help promote the deliverables that countries have, particularly under the Paris Agreement? By the way, we look at every single project for Paris alignment. So we say that if something is directly opposed or going in the wrong direction for the Paris Agreement, we cannot invest in it. And that's a very deliberate process that we have. And of course, you know, then you can think about, is this about promoting financial instruments that help raise climate finance? Or is it directly going into the electricity or into transport, into water, in all those areas that we work in? We look at the climate impact as a particular key performance indicator if you want. And how about the financial side of it? Is this concessional capital? Is it low cost capital to bring in private capital? Is it a combination where we think? You know, maybe we should just explain how multilateral development banks work because it is, as you said before, quite a unique model. So what we do, we have some equity capital at the core, that equity capital we use to go out to the markets to raise funds. And the cost at which we raise these funds has to do, of course, with the risk levels we have, what kind of shareholders we have, and so on. So then we use that capital and we on-land it to countries. And the cheaper we can raise the capital from the outside, the cheaper we can on-land to our countries. And we survive if you want, on that difference between what we can raise in the market and what we can on-land. And of course, here also I think it matters what the institution does. So if we are lending a lot to climate as we are, I think that helps us also in getting lower interest rates when we seek capital from the market. And do you use innovative structures like blended finance structures, guarantees, other certain mechanisms that you are more inclined towards than others? No, I think some of these things are a little bit new to us because we are a new bank, we should have said that it's 10 years old and we have slowly been building up. We started a lot with co-financing, we're still the largest co-financing of the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank. And co-financing we think is a very useful device because it forces us to agree on methodologies and recognize each other's standards and so on. So that's very much how we work. And when it comes to climate, again, we have different instruments, we have product finance, we have also what we call results-based finance, where you lend money to governments and you pay out when they are achieved certain objectives. And since last year we also have something called climate policy-based financing, which is you look at what the government has done over a year or so. And you can identify things there that are consistent with what we think is good climate policy, we call that the policy matrix, maybe have five or six components that you look at. And then you say, okay, this is a good climate policy, we will also help this government implement those particular commitments that they have made. And we can maybe come back, we have just launched our first standalone facility with Brazil just before 2030 and that had these components of the policy matrix. And then we commit to help deliver. Great, so let's dive into the Brazil story. Now, before we get into your particular work with them, you just returned from COP, which was in Brazil. Can you tell us some of the highlights, some of the things you think went well, some of the disappointments from your perspective? No, first of all, I think a lot of the news media coverage has focused on the kind of logistics issues around lack of air conditioning, the noise levels in the facilities and so on and maybe some extent of lack of preparedness. But what really stands out once you came out of it was that this very firm commitment from very large parts of the world, the US wasn't there, the US didn't, federal government didn't have representation at all. But even from local, from states in the US and from cities, they were very important representatives. So it was a very massive international effort. It was supposed to be an implementation COP and adaptation COP, so focusing very much on adaptation. We did get some plans, we got some commitments to triple funding to adaptation, also the overall resource envelope increased. We still don't have very firm commitments on these things. But what really stands out for me was the connection that it made between climate and nature. For the future climate and nature will be part of COP and that really is a contribution of BELM. I would also say that the focus on the social dimension and BELM of course, I think it was one of the intentions of the Brazilian government to use BELM because it is socially complex and has all these issues that many emerging and developing economies are facing. We need to have this integrated and these new just transition mechanisms that have been discussed in previous COP but it really was brought together by the Bersilians. And then maybe the Brazilian government, the most important achievement from their side I think was the launch of the tropical forest forever facility. So this idea that you were creating a fund at the international level will be managed by the World Bank to support the protection and restoration of tropical rainforests. It was so important, you have again the contribution to global moisture flows coming from these places so essential and the thinking behind the tropical forest forever facility, thinking in landscape, thinking about nature as infrastructure is very important. And I think that facility and their commitments now maybe in the order of 9 billion to that facility I think is an important achievement of the Bersilian COP 30 presidency. Now you mentioned the complexity of BELM and that's perhaps why Brazil decided to have it there. Can you unpack that? I mean I think some folks have been reading about it and understand the BELM is sort of at the mouth of the Amazon. It's sort of the interface of indigenous and non-indigenous populations. It's a smaller city doesn't have the same hotel infrastructure as some of the larger cities. Are those the aspects you're referring to? Yeah I think that's very much it and it's so in your face when you are there you know the city has this colonial formal colonial city so you have the some of that architecture when you have also new beautiful renovations but overall it's quite a rundown city. Visibility particularly around the COP of these indigenous peoples who feel like their livelihoods are at risk because of what's happening to the Amazon they're also affected by you know mining pollution of the water. All those things I also had opportunity to travel up the Amazon and see you know the precariousness of these cities and communities that live between the river and the very dense rainforest where you can't really live or it's very difficult to live in those rainforests. And of course anything that happens to the Amazon river is absolutely life determining for them or existential for them. But also what's happening to the rainforest you know they show some of the droughts that are affecting for example the atai trees that are so important and for the revenues or the income of these communities or these trees are drying out and these berries that are so powerful and so so rich in nutrients and proteins and so on. They are dying on the scale that I think we haven't fully appreciated yet so all those things were very powerful and you couldn't hide it even if you wanted to if you put the COP 30 in the limb and I think the Brazilian government very much wanted to people to understand the complexities of the issues that they are facing because these are the issues that are going to be central through when you think through how to really implement policies against climate change and the nature laws so I think they succeeded certainly in that respect. Yeah sounds like a very influential powerful experience for the folks who were able to attend. Absolutely that certainly what stands out for me yes as I said there were these hardships but they in you know with time you forget about these things and what really stands so alive in front of you are these images of these communities. I mean Brazil such an interesting place it has so many strong climate attributes 80% of its electricity is renewable mostly hydro bit of solar strong bio fuel sector ethanol and biodiesel lots of vehicles use that as a fuel instead of gasoline and they with with that strong basis they have aggressive targets. I've read 53% greenhouse gas reduction target by 2030 compared to 2005 which is to be seems like quite an aggressive target and that's the context in which your organization sort of enters a relationship with Brazil. Now Brazil's quite a distance from the Asian part of your Asian infrastructure investment bank title so can you tell us a little bit how did the collaboration between the Asian infrastructure investment bank and Brazil arise I believe they approached you their finance ministry. Yes I think maybe just start with why AIB got involved with climate in the first place I mean AIB was created at the same time as the Paris agreement and it became obvious to AIB that this issue of climate was so important to our membership you know we are mostly emerging and developing economies that are the one most exposed to climate change. And of course I think very much part of why we became associated with climate policy or why we drove climate policy and another aspect of that is that infrastructure is so critical to addressing climate change and whatever we do today is going to look as in for decades so we need to get it right and that became sort of an obligation for AIB to do so. And against that background that the Brazil approach starts they knew that we have done what they heard that we have done a study of China's and the zero transition and were underway with a study of India's and the zero transition so I think that what was triggered their interest in engaging with AIB on the climate policy specifically. Great and what did they ask you to do will get in the moment will get into what the report that you've recently produced said but what was the scope at those initial at the initial stage. I think they they wanted as we had done in the Chinese and Indian case to try to get the systemic view of climate policy and also outline this kind of climate architecture you know what kind of institutional structure do you need to implement a modern climate policy. And I think those were the elements and they also wanted to learn for sure about the Chinese experience and the Indian experience which are very different and emphasizes different aspects of climate policy so China had a very strong reliance on the planning element while in India it was very much about the private sector you know with the support of a government policy but the whole renewable sector in India has developed from the. The financing and implementation of the private sector I think that combination was very important to them and I think what you know really came out again is that they had quite a sophisticated view of how to think about climate policy themselves so I'm not saying that you know all the things that we found were things that that necessary reflected what we had found in India. And China got it so they wanted to sort of leverage your experience with India and with China and apply it to the Brazilian context sounds like yeah and and you know but I had also a vision of their own which I think is very important it was not something that they work I think keen to get a check on on their own thinking and I think that that that was actually true in the Chinese and Indian examples too that you know you want to. You get some kind of assessment and even if some assessment that associated with the international community to get a you know handle on or we on the right track or maybe you even need it with your domestic stakeholders that some affirmation that you are on the right track and of course to get you know something that just embraces everything you do is not in your interest you want to also have you know some criticism is my learn from from that experience. I think there were those combination of factors that that really in the end influenced the Brazil to talk to us. I should say also I think Brazil has really stepped up its engagement with AIB it was a founding member but it decided last year to increase its contribution and go up to what is more reflecting Brazil's importance for the global economy. It's in with the 10th largest economy in the world so it is and it has a very strong relationship to Asia and I think that all that were reasons why Brazil was interested in engaging with AIB. Got it got it great well let's now pivot and talk about some of the results now one of the key results as I understand it is this broad climate policy a broad architecture. I mean climate we all know is a very complicated multifaceted area there's transportation systems energy systems banking and financial systems so many different avenues that already have legacy regulations developed in a pre climate awareness time. So tell me a little bit about sort of what the report recommends or finds with regard to the sort of broad policy architecture. I think a very important strong point of Brazil's climate policy is the integration into this ecological transformation plan that they had their industrial policy the economic growth strategy really integrates in a very interesting way and very I think novel way actually the elements of economic growth climate response climate action and action against nature laws so I think that in itself is a very important lesson from the Brazilian experience and then trying to on top of that add an architecture that really brings together different government ministries the different agencies trying to link up also to to the subnational level so that and creation of the platform for engaging with the private sector and international investors all that has I think a very strong features of the architecture that Brazil has created. So what does this look like in practice are these new ministries that you're recommending be created or consolidations or just better lines of communication joint projects. I think what's core I think in the Brazilian model is the centrality of the finance ministry so the finance ministry is the organized it was the kind of secretariat of the this ecological transformation plan it is the core of the this inter ministerial coordination mechanism that they have created. They are really there were the drivers of this also during the Brazilian D20 presidency so it's very clear and I think this is actually a very important lesson for other emerging developing economies too that if you don't have the finance ministry at the center is going to be very difficult to implement many of these policies so to me that's really the key to it and then of course then having the ability to use the levers of the finance ministry to get other ministries to to cooperate and to bring in also various agencies that that responsible I should say on top of that that there was really also leadership from the presidential administration in the sense that they gave the big vision and and Lula himself was also very personally very involved in this and of course the COP 30 and the D20 presidency before that also were opportunities to really signal to the domestic audience but also the international audience that Brazil was very committed to addressing climate change. So why is it so critical for the finance ministry to be at the heart of this I think some listeners might think that's sort of a strange group to put in charge of a coordinated attempt on climate. Yeah so I think that of course it's all ultimately about resources it's about the allocation of budgets across government entities it's about follow-up and all the tools that finance ministries have and also I would say and this is something I was really impressed by is the capacity and the quality of the finance ministry in Brazil and the minister himself is a very visionary personality and has really thought quite deeply about the issues around climate and around how that connects to nature laws and how that connects those with the important social issues in Brazil. So I think this is the reason but I think this goes beyond that I mean this is something that is I think we realize increasingly that yes we need to have obviously the central banks have done quite a good job globally to move forward the analysis of climate risk and so on but you know if you don't have the finance ministry at the center of this it's not going to it's not going to work. So this is to me one very important lesson from Brazil. Great so we've been talking about different federal level coordination but I know that you're also involved with subnational the states the provinces maybe even municipalities. So how does this plan sort of handle who does what in terms of the levels of government? Yeah and also so we know this is a global issue how you get local authorities and cities you would think that cities would be you know the best place you're often there's a mayor that sort of is in charge of everything but actually what you find is that the kind of issue that we are facing at the national level often amplified at the local level you know the stylization of activities. You know as I see when multilateral development banks work with cities they often don't talk to each to each other and you know very much. Patterns from the VC also at the national level are replicated at the local level in Brazil is is also very complicated because there is a centralized procedure for determining which authorities have the right to take loans for example from a multilateral development bank. And that procedure is is very complex and and for example when we were doing a emergency response to the rear ground of the soul disaster a couple of years ago you know when the flooding and so on you know it turned out we couldn't work with the states that were affected we had to work with individual development banks active in those states and and some municipalities we could also work with so there is a. And then understandable because you know if you don't control in some way the spending of local authorities you you that have very serious fiscal implications but when you are trying to to give local authorities the mandate to address climate change and if you don't give them resources at the same time is not going to happen so again you can see our important the finance ministry and of course these mechanisms for allocating. International financial support or resources are absolutely essential. So what are some specific things that that the report then recommends about these different levels of government is it is it at the high level about saying you should make sure your roles and responsibilities are clear. So actually suggesting that they take on particular responsibilities that maybe they haven't had in the past. So the first thing is to have them involved the sub national levels involved in the overall climate architecture so that is I think the first thing and then you have to try to find specific financial schemes and we had some discussions about creating a guarantee fund for example they can be used for local authorities and again here maybe the development banks can be. The development banks can be part of supporting such a guarantee scheme so also in general also working on on strengthening their fiscal capacity the local authorities also is a very important part of driving climate policy. And I should say a tool that the government has used and developed I would say also very much together with the Inter-American development bank is something called the Equal Invest which is really about investing in climate, in adaptation, in nature and what's important was key there is that the government puts certain money on the table but it uses then that to leverage resources from the private sector and also from international investors. And the ARB have been very proud to be part of that when the climate policy based financing that we granted earlier this year has an important element which is supporting this so called Equal Invest scheme. We also have some novel features trying to sort of iron out some of the greatest risks, the FX risk, the foreign exchange risk and by using subsidies to try to take away the most extreme exposures there that really encourages private finance to come in. So again they have been quite innovative in this. Now these sound to me like public projects which sure maybe they hire private sector to do but I'm not sure if these are public projects that provide pure positive benefits to society or if these are co-investments where there's some return that the private sector will gain from these. I think this is of course a very important issue and the way we like to think about it is that these are really ultimately public private partnerships. You always need a public part I think when you invest in nature as infrastructure but what I think we can run from the experience of public private partnerships in infrastructure finance for the climate. The nature space is that you can also use the private sector to get in both the skills, the resources and also innovation into this space. Got it. But are there returns that the companies will gain from these projects? For example like private roads or a charge fees or something like that? Yeah, it's very important to I think at the core of this and the resilience are very much aware of this. You need to value nature from the public side. You need to have tools for introducing nature into national accounts. You need to encourage local authorities to have natural capital kind of evaluation when they look at nature investment. And then you need to have compensation schemes both at the national level and of course that these need to reach a local level. So these are things for government authorities are a very important potential benefits. And what the government can do is to introduce guarantees, maybe insurance schemes and so on, to make sure that some of the risks that the private sector takes on that is taken care of by these risking instruments. I think in the long term and the Brazilian government is also very much aware of the value of biodiversity credits and nature based carbon credits and so on. So these are things that can also help contribute to the bankability of these investments. Yeah, maybe you could take us through an example of a biodiversity credit, something that doesn't get much media coverage. Like what is a biodiversity credit and who stands to gain through the creation of such an instrument? Well, so the biodiversity credit is a credit that tries to look at some assets that has a natural, so we talk about ecosystem services. These are services that it could be through carbon capture or it could be air or water purification. It could be cross pollination, it could be even recreation is an ecosystem service. And what you're trying to do with biodiversity credits is to ensure that someone who is benefiting from this also is willing to contribute to this. So for example, we are looking at the biodiversity credits experiments here in China and it has, for example, we're looking at the salmon farm that is benefiting from the pure water from a national park and this salmon farm should somehow be willing to pay for ensuring that this water stays clean and contributing to the health of their fish stocks and so on. So I think that's how biodiversity credit should operate. And again, it's not a silver bullet, but it's trying to bring in additional resources and making sure that we are using nature in a way that those who benefit from this water purification or air purification that this salmon farm is benefiting from should also be part of paying for that. So I see let's talk about carbon credits because everyone knows that in the carbon credit space that Brazil is a big player in terms of the potential for sequestration or protecting old growth forest from being failed. Is there anything new in the report that speaks to carbon markets and voluntary carbon markets in particular and how those need to get improved? No, so the report very much acknowledges that the carbon markets have a long way to go in Brazil, but they have taken the first step, they have taken a law that establishes a carbon market. As part of our we haven't spoken much about that, but we have in a couple of a month ago we gave a major loan, one billion for climate policy based finance to Brazil. And a very important element of that was support to the implementation of this law for emissions trading scheme of carbon credits. Of course carbon credits can come from different sources, it's about industries reducing their carbon content of their production. But it can also come from investment in forests that capture carbon or also in oceans that capture carbon and Brazil is very much on that journey. I should say though that some of these benefits that come from for example forests are also the humidification which is maybe even greater and some people say maybe four times greater value than the carbon sequestration so that the humidity that comes, the trees are like rivers and that humidity that comes. It's so important for agriculture but we now also know and particularly in Brazil's case which is the largest contributor to these what we call the flying rivers, these you know high up in the atmosphere, very intense moisture flows that goes from Brazil. Actually it's on its own it accounts for 43% of all these flying rivers and this flying rivers takes moisture to Africa, to the US, to Antarctica but even goes as far as to India and China. These things are very important to value properly so that we make sure that what's been happening as we know in Brazil for a long time, the forestation that now has, I think, the new government or the Lua government has been able to slow down that or even maybe turn it around but really the Amazon is such a key player. This is a key contributor to these moisture flows globally so we need to preserve that and this is also I think what is really at the core of the Brazilian government's interest when it comes to connecting nature and climate change or climate change in nature was. And that was I think we spoke maybe earlier on about the COP and the COP 30 and one thing that really significant from the COP 30 maybe not everything was achieved when it came to the so-called adaptation COP, the implementation COP, there were some achievements but the really big achievement I think is now is that nature and climate are now very closely connected and the idea is emerging. And for global efforts on these issues. I see now the report also talks about accountability mechanisms in terms of this energy trend or the net zero transition can you tell us a little bit about what that's all about what are some performance metrics that would be used to assess progress against this report. That independent assessors or evaluators might use in the coming years to understand the extent to which this is a report that just ended up on the shelf versus actually drove some change. I think obviously there are some, this is the advantage we have in the climate space is that we have a very clear metric. It's very clear conceptually and it's very clear to set targets to the greenhouse gas emissions. We are not as fortunate in the nature space because there are you know by diversity of many aspects to biodiversity that is nature in the broader sense. So you know the measures are not as clear but one advantage that we have on the nature side is that because of this new data this new monitoring technology satellites remote sensing and so on. We have much better tools for monitoring in the nature space than we used to have. So even better I would say than we have on the climate side because even if we can very clearly say something about the greenhouse gas emissions and how big they are to monitor them in individual sites for example it's not so easy. So I think here using these metrics that we have and constantly coming back to them then we have to look at the finance side you know to what extent our resources actually allocated to climate action and nature action. Those things also need to be monitored over time and you know different ministries different agencies again involving also some national level all these things where our resources getting stuck where is there not sufficient implementation. All those things need to be part of these kind of regular assessments. So Eric we've talked about a wider ray of topics in the context of a development bank. For those interested in learning more about how to engage either in a developing bank type context or working with Brazil in particular what resources or websites or experiences or conferences do you recommend people become familiar with in order to learn more. I think first of all I think this is a very exciting opportunity for young people to come into these organizations they are extremely international like we are very diverse. I think we are by some margin the most international workplace in in in Beijing for example with people coming from I think close to 80 countries and coming together so all that I think is is a very exciting part of of going into a multilateral development bank. But it also for people who seek you know additional meaning in their work I think these institutions are are excited. I would also you know recommend some of these very sophisticated organizations that you know without them we wouldn't have been where we are today so institutions like the World Resources Institute the World Wildlife Fund you know they're the European Climate Foundation there are many of them that are really both very interesting employers I think but also just participating in their activities specialized organizations. Like bird life international have the having enormous influence on on international diplomacy and action so you know looking for these institutions working for them I think is or on and looking for the you know material that they produce both in terms of reports and in terms of podcasts and so on as I think the Brazilian case shows. You need to think now an integrated way about what is economic growth what is industrial policy how do we do this in in a sustainable way how do we integrate climate policy how do we integrate action against nature laws into mainstream economic policies so really this is also when you look at new technologies all those things will have to be happening within these planetary boundaries that we have so I think keeping your eyes on on this is going to help you in the future career also because this is going to become more and more binding as we are progressing so so I'm very much encouraged everyone to stay in tune for for stay on top of these development because I think they they're going to be they're going to be they may go away for short periods of time as we see in some countries but as a focus of governments but it will come back it will have you know will have to happen at the national level at the international level and in the individual companies and so on. Great and we'll provide links to those organizations on the show notes of the of the episode so thank you. That was our conversation with Eric Burgloff chief economist at the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank you've been listening to climate rising I'm your host Mike Toffel so if you want produced today's episode Craig McDonald is our audio engineer we'll be back in two weeks with another episode of climate rising see you then.