Fighting Materialism in a Materialistic World

We seek to fill that eternal hole with temporary things and it just can never be filled to the brim. And so we seek more and seek more in our souls or like, it's just not enough, it doesn't feel right. I need a little bit more. The bottom line is we set our sights on the temporary rather than really keeping our vision at the eternal. (upbeat music) Welcome to The Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I'm Courtney Doctor and I'm here with my friend and co-host Melissa Kruger and we are joined today by our very good friend, Jen Oshman. I know most of you will know this, but Jen is a writer, a pastor's wife, she is a former overseas missionary. She is the mother to four daughters, the grandmother to one granddaughter and the youngest is a grandson. So the first boy in the mix, Jen, thanks for joining us today. - Oh, thank you, Courtney. It's so sweet to be with you guys. - And I'm so excited about this conversation today. We're gonna be talking about materialism. I think I'm excited actually. - I was gonna say, are you? I'm kinda scared. - Yeah, exactly. I know I'm like, oh, is this gonna be convicting? It might be convicting and maybe I need to be convicted. So we're gonna talk about materialism, which is kind of just a preoccupation or an overly stressing of material things of this world, which I think we all do. Look, we live in a world where we see a lot. I mean, we maybe see more than any other generations ever seen. I mean, if you scroll down Instagram lane, just a little bit, you're like, oh, I need this. Oh, I didn't even know that existed and now I need it. You know, I mean, this is the world we live in. One thing that I think sometimes we assume is that it's easy to think of materialism as only something that like shallow people struggle with not us. I mean, we're not shallow. We're the deep dish. We're deep, right? So we don't struggle with these things. But, you know, I think we all do at some level. I mean, every one of us can put our hope in the things of this world, can think, wow, life would just be so much easier if I had X, Y or Z. As we think about this topic of materialism, what does this struggle look like in your own heart? - You know, I think the question is really difficult because none of us thinks that we're materialistic. I mean, it's just kind of a given our reflexes. I don't struggle with that. I'm not greedy. I'm not envious. I'm not covetous. You know, that's other people. We don't, we just not our first reflex to think that we have this sin issue in our lives. So I think it takes a minute and maybe some prayers, some self-reflection, just some humility, begging the Lord for some humility to ask this question of ourselves and give ourselves the time to respond with truth and ask the Lord for grace and that. So even myself as I have studied this topic deeply, taught on it many times as I was preparing for this conversation over the last 24 hours, truly to myself. I'm saying, I don't, this is not really an issue in my life. And I knew I just had to kind of laugh 'cause you're like, "Gene, that's not true. It is an issue in your life." So slow down, stop the frenetic pace of the busyness of this day, the scrolling, the consuming, the things that don't allow me to think deeply and really ask this question. And what I found I didn't love, I feel like I found a shallow dish answer and a deep dish answer. And the shallow dish answer is I, I'm just attracted to newer, better, shinier, prettier. And they're fun and make my life maybe more convenient. And I just enjoy new things and they also maybe just make me feel better about myself to have them. That's kind of the shallow answer. The deeper answer which I've kind of had to struggle with actually over the last day, just to be really honest and pray about an asshole or like, what is the rootedness behind this? Is that I feel a sense of shame when I don't have or appear like other people when I don't have what they have or when I don't appear as capable or as smart or as wealthy, just if I don't have the material things that I can point to that are maybe on my person or in my home or on my social media accounts, I feel ashamed. And I think what is behind that is a sense of identity that there's like worth wrapped up in stuff and appearance. And I have at a very deep level subconscious even bothalai that my worth is equal to what I possess or what I can show other people. That's so good, John. That is so painful. It's because it's there and even when you were saying social media, you're like, yeah, the number of followers or the number of likes, like all those things that we can see. I mean, that's materialism at some covetousness for sure, right? At some level. And I think I liked how you said the deep dish and the shallow dish. When you said that, I was like, oh, deep dish and thin crust, I've got that answer to like the deep dish answer for me. As I thought about this sort of the same thing, like asking the Lord to reveal my heart is it's future. It's savings for future, like future security, future financial. So that is a place that I can say, man, I really want to put my security in savings or in like, and the savings is there for the purpose of security. And it's not just security, it's not just that I will have enough. It's that I will have enough to maintain everything you're talking about or to get and to have all of those things. And so it's just not to have fun. Exactly. Exactly. I hear that now. I was like, oh, yeah. No, no, I want to have enough. I want to have enough. Yeah. Am I wondering am I going to have enough to be generous? No, that's not my question. Is it enough for me? And then I think the shallow or thin crust answer is that I see it on my Amazon. Just how quickly, you know, how quickly I'm like, oh, that's a great idea. I should have one of those. Do I really need it? No, probably not. But what we've already kind of alluded to this, but we talked recently with Jackie about the topic of covetousness. And so where's the intersection? How is covetousness similar or dissimilar to materialism? Where's the overlap between those two things? Yeah. I mean, you're right. We have kind of alluded to it. And I think in our context, they are really hard to pull apart because as Melissa said, we are seeing everybody else's stuff. People who live on the other side of the globe, people I haven't seen for decades, I see their material things and that leads often to covetousness. So they're in our age, they're very closely related. But I think, you know, covetous obviously speaks to envy and just wanting the life that God gave somebody else and being discontent with the life that He gave us. While materialism and just a bent towards material things is putting our identity, our hope, our trust in the things that we have. So they are distinct, but they do often overlap. So maybe what we covet ends up revealing materialism. That's a really good point. I think you're right. And I like to think of covetousness as like that big umbrella. So you might covet, if you're especially like I think about you, Jen being overseas for so many years, like you may covet being home for Christmas, which is different than materialism. But you know, it can be wrapped up in good things like family or whatever, but that's different than being like, no, I covet having my China or that China on, you know, that's more the materialism. And so I always think of it as a subset. It's just one more thing under the big umbrella. Like I think of all of the two commandments as kind of umbrella sends that have a lot under them. You know, so adultery, you know, there's a lot more there than just adultery. You know, in these and I think when it comes to this, I do love thinking about Hebrews 13, 15 because it is actually this call to be content, but it says keep your life free from the love of money and be content with what you have for he has said, I will never leave you nor forsake you. I think it's really interesting in this that the answer is not, I'm going to provide. Yeah, well, it isn't some ways, I guess, but it's not, it's not provide you with material things. He's going to provide you with his presence, not the possessions you think you need. And so how do you look at this promise and how is it a promise and how does it actually help us battle materialism? Oh, yeah, you're getting right to the heart of the matter. I think I think we should say clearly that coveting and materialism, all these areas where our hearts are prone to wander are usually towards really good things. We tend to covet or desire things that are good gifts. So I want nice clothes or I want a nice home or I want a nice life, a nice vacation, beauty around me. Those things are not bad in and of themselves. Our God is the creator of beauty. He is an artist. He delights in how he made us to be creative and he made us to cultivate creation and to subdue it. and to make beautiful things and to work the garden and to keep it. You know, he made us in his image. So these things that we desire, we come by them honestly, because they are from the Lord and they're part of being made in his image. Further, they point to our next life, to life in the new heavens and the new earth. We were made to desire a safe, permanent, beautiful home. We were made to desire these good, deep gifts that God offers us. In this lifetime, which is good, but temporary, we seek to fill that eternal hole with temporary things and it just can never be filled to the brim. And so we seek more and seek more in our souls or like, it's just not enough. It doesn't feel right. And so I think the bottom line is we set our sights on the temporary rather than really keeping our vision at the eternal. So that's a kind of a big answer. We can unpack more, but I do think that's kind of at the crux of the matter. I love that. I think it's kind of at the crux of the parable of the prodigal son too. It's the older brother, right? Like it's all the, all, and how does the father end up answering the son? He ends up saying, you know, everything. What does he say? He said to him, you are always with me and everything I have is yours. So it's kind of that like, I'm here and everything that you need. Like I will provide, but I was also thinking, you know, there's the Jesus told this parable of the rich fool. And I thought it was really interesting because Jesus said in it, he said, watch out and be on guard against all greed because because one's life is not in the abundance of his possessions. And then he tells this parable of this man who who's, who's just living an abundant materially abundant life. His crops are producing more than he can imagine. And here's the question he asks, what should I do? Meaning what should I do with this abundance of resources of wealth, the material wealth? What should I do? And then he says, since I don't have anywhere to store my crops. And so his answer is, his answer is just, how should I store them? How should I keep hoarding them more and more when the answer to what should I do would have been be generous? But then he says, I'll say to myself, you have many goods stored up for many years. And I think that that, like I was, you know, just telling you, like that's kind of this, this temptation that I feel is like to store up many goods for many years. But then it reveals why? And it says so that he could take it easy, eat, drink and enjoy himself. And this is when Jesus comes in with the lesson. And he says, that's how it is. So the man dies that night. He does not get to enjoy this abundance. And the point is, like that was not what he was supposed to do with all of that. And then he says, that's how it is with the one who stores up treasure for himself and is not rich towards God. But then if we go on to the very next verse, it looks like a whole new story in the Bible because it has a heading. But he said, then he said to his disciples, therefore I tell you, don't worry about what about your life, what you will eat or about your body, what you will wear. And so there's this antichdote to this temptation in all of us to store up. But I think if we, if we have been blessed with abundance, then the question, what should I do is a really good question to ask that I think the Bible does give us clear answers to. Yeah, definitely. You know, that parable is so fascinating because Jesus calls the man a fool for storing up his wealth and for just hoarding it. That's the foolish thing is that this man has put his hope in his extra. He's relying on what he has produced himself. And it's all very self-focused. And the Lord says, that's what's foolish. The foolishness is not actually being wealthy because we see plenty of examples throughout scripture of those who are wealthy and are not condemned for being wealthy. Well, these not the problem. But the man's foolish because as you said, Courtney, he puts all of his hope in what he has hoarded. And the Lord is like, you'll die. And then what? This is not actually the sum of your life. This is not actually going to save you. You have put your hope in the wrong thing. Do you remember at the end of Shendler's List, it was the scene, I don't know if you'll remember this, where he's pulling out things from his pockets like a pen. And he's like, this could have saved one more. Yes, this poignant scene of I have all this stuff. And he realizes the immensity of people were saved. And he realized, oh, I could have used this stuff to save more. And I always think about that when I read Matthew 6, 619 through 21. And here's what it says, do not lay up for yourself's treasures on earth where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and seal. But lay up for yourself's treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and seal for where your treasure is there, your heart will be also. And I think about that a lot because it's not, again, we've said possessions aren't bad in and of themselves, but they're to be used. They're to be chewer to it in some ways. And so in some ways, yeah, it could be, yeah, hey, this crock pot, it helps me serve tons of people in my home for Bible study. That's a great way to use it. But it's the question of every, every purchase is a choice in some sense. Like, could it be used for something better? Could, you know, could it be used to store up treasure in heaven? So can we talk about that for a minute? What does it even mean to use what we've been given to store up treasure in heaven where things don't rust? Because, you know, look, we've all, every, every one of us has seen Christmas morning where, hey, that toy was so fun for about five minutes. And now it's done. Well, maybe our toys last a year. Maybe they last a little longer, but in life, eternity, it's five minutes. So what does it actually mean to store up treasure in heaven with our stuff? Yeah, I mean, I think it's a, it's a daily discipline. And it's something I think we need to cultivate, you know, by being intentional about the word of God, asking the spirit of God to help us, but also inviting the people of God in our lives to hold us accountable to it, to spur us on toward it, to give each other examples of what that might look like, because this is not the direction of our flesh or our culture. And so it's going to be this minute by minute seeking of God's help to practice this discipline. But I think what it looks like is what we've been given is not wrong. I mean, we did not choose to be born into the wealthiest time and place in history, right? We have access to more than kings of old. We have such such luxury and safety and health and convenience. And the Lord are deemed that this is when we would be born. So how then will we steward it, as you said, Melissa? So these things aren't wrong to have, but they cannot become our false gods. They can't be come, you know, where we go to for hope and identity and security and joy. They are means. They are gods. The resources that God has given us that we might love God and love others. You know, those are the two greatest commandments that we all must obey. Love him and love others. We've been given the great commission to go. I mean, we know what we're meant to be doing as believers. It's very clear in the New Testament. So how then might we use these resources to point us to the Lord, to point others to the Lord? And not that every coffee date has to be a holy, worshipful moment. I don't mean that by any means, but how can we do those one and others in Scripture? How can we practice hospitality, rejoice with those who rejoice, mourn with those who mourn? How can we be intentional that that which we purchase or that which we practice doesn't end here? It's not for just a temporal feel good, high self-care high that's going to wane, but it's something that points our own hearts and those that were around to something beyond to the Lord. I love that. And I think that what you're really addressing is this idea of the foolish rich man in Luke 12. I had to go back and look at it in Luke 12 where he's like, I have an abundance. So the Lord provided that, right? There's nothing wrong with an abundance. His question is what should I do with it? And then what we see is his answer is I'm going to do, I'm going to store it up for me, for my pleasure, for my good. And that's obviously where the foolishness comes. And so your right wealth is not a problem in and of itself, but let me ask you this, is materialism only a problem for the wealthy? Is it only a problem for those that have abundance or can the the frugal and those that struggle financially? Can materialism be a problem for us in that situation too? I think it can be a problem for every human, no matter our context, because no matter what we have, we can always definitely want more and we can always misplace our hope. I mean, I think one of the very sad realities of the last few decades of what we've seen in the global church is a spread of the health and wealth gospel in some places that are very poor. And that what I mean by that is that false teachers have sprung up in places where they to suffer terrible poverty. And they have a lack of healthcare and a lack of access to things. And they've been taught, believe this specific gospel, believe in God and He'll make you rich. And that is not true, but it just shows the propensity for anybody in any context to go, "Yeah, I want more. I just want more and that's good to have more." So I think whether you're rich or poor, this is a struggle. I think it's especially probably dangerous for those who are wealthy because we put our hope in it without a second thought. And those who don't have those guardrails and that ample security available to them might be more likely to cry out to God. I think that's like a proverbial generalization. But this is something anybody can stumble over. Yeah. I think that's when the biggest thing is, what do we trust in? Like, "Oh, well, that breaks down. Oh, I'll just get a new one. I can order it really quickly." And in our wealthy culture, I think it promotes isolation from others. You know, I don't need to share with my neighbor anything. If I actually see that my neighbor has something I want, I just go get it. Rather than like, can I borrow yours or like communal living, which is what you would have done in the past maybe, is say, "Oh, let's all share this resource together." And instead, you know, the more material goods we have, almost the more isolated we become in some ways. Okay. So I'm already feeling convicted by this conversation. And I'm like, "Oh, I need to give everything away and do all these things. How do we discern whether this is a problem in our lives?" Like a real problem. Like, you know, I think it's easy to say in our minds, "No, it's not a problem for me. It's a problem for her." You know, like, I can totally see how Courtney is struggling with that. I can't. I'm literally thinking Courtney is so good at getting rid of things. I'm terrible at getting rid of things. Just because I'm not a hoarder doesn't mean I'm not necessarily a realist. But yeah, so what are the signs then? Because I'm watching my daughter, you know, she's getting ready to move out. She sees, they just covered everything. She gave her couch, she had people, all these, you know, they just got married recently. They're giving all this stuff away. I'm like, "What are you doing?" But it's, I also see such freedom in it. Yeah. So how do we recognize this in our own hearts? Because again, I think it's always easy to recognize it and the person who has a little bit more than you. They're clearly materialistic. But how do we know if it's simmering in our own hearts? Well, and I think even just what you were saying, like we've kind of talked about this idea that, yes, I think that this is a distinct type of temptation for those who have abundance of wealth and of possessions. And it manifests itself in a very certain way. But I also think for the uberfugal person that does want to, like that, the question there needs to be, what am I? Because frugal can also, it's, it's the flip side of that is stingy, right? And not generous. And so, so the overly frugal person, the person who really prides herself on her frugality, I think that's a form, that's a, that's a version and a flavor of materialism. And then I think for the person who really lacks, who lacks material, financial provision, that spends money in ways to gain things that they really don't have the money for. I mean, this unbelievable credit card debt that just surrounds us everywhere is definitely a sign and symptom of materialism at some level. Now do emergencies come up? Are there reasons people get into credit card debt? Absolutely. But the vast majority of credit card debt is the attempt to grab ads. I just, I know I don't have the money for it, but I'm going to buy it anyway because it is going to provide something for me. It's going to provide identity or it's going to provide safety or it's going to provide happiness, whatever it is. And so I think that like this idea is, is for all of us. So we all struggle, I would say, with materialism in some way, shape or form. Like you said, Jen, in very impoverished parts of the world, the fact that the health and wealth gospel is taking off so rapidly really indicates the desire. Like, because that becomes the God, right? If I promise you that you're going to be healthy and wealthy, and that's what you're worshiping God for, well, really your God is your health and your wealth. And so I think that for all of us, no matter if we are impoverished, if we're on the poverty line, if we're really frugal, if we're not a hoarder, if we have abundance, I think the question has to be, where is generosity in my life? And what does generosity look like? No matter what my abundance looks like or lack thereof, is generosity a part of my, a part of my life, because I think that's the anecdote to materialism. I think that is so good. And I think what you're getting at with generosity is sacrificing myself. Can I pursue some inconvenience and some lack so that I might bless God and bless others? And a part of this conversation that I don't want to have or think about, but I, that keeps sort of like tapping me on the shoulder, is that Jesus says our growth and our Christ likeness is going to come through suffering. I mean, that is a theme throughout the New Testament. Take up your cross and follow me. I came to serve and not be served. His kingdom is upside down. And so we who say we want to follow Him then have to pursue suffering in some way and not just, not for suffering, sake, not to be like, I now I put my hope in my identity and my trust and I've suffered so much therefore I'll be saved. It's not, that's not the end. But what if we went without, what if we pursue generosity and chose some inconvenience, even chose to go without or even chose some suffering so that we could be like Christ and not in a means of earning anything from Him, but identifying with Him and His suffering and saying and practicing, Jesus is better. Jesus is better than me having X, Y or Z and I'm going to put that to the test by not purchasing it or not doing it and seeking Him and finding Him to satisfy me in a way that the material goods cannot. You know, when you're saying all that, I was thinking as you were talking about just the weight of responsibility that has been given to us, you know, He's been given much, much is required. But particularly if I viewed myself as a steward rather than an owner, like because here's the thing, what gets in my brain is I work hard, I deserve it. Like that's the sin in my heart. Like I have earned this money. I would never say I've earned grace. Yeah, I've got that pretty clearly down that I'm desperately needy. But what if we actually viewed our salaries as God's provision in our life and His gift to us, not something we earn too? Like this is this, I think my brain doesn't want to even hear me say this. But like what if, you know, I said, okay, this you gave me now, how do I steward it well rather than it's my right? So I'll save some, I'll spend some, I'll give some, you know, whatever, you know, these things. Well, what does radical generosity look like? Not just, you know, what I'm checking a box, so I feel kind of good about myself and pat myself on that back. But what would it look like if the American church collectively, but even individually, if we started doing this, what would, how would the world look different? And how would our souls look different? These are big questions because I think we're actually thinking it's going to be this death to self where we know any death to self always produces life. Yeah, I mean, so this is, you know, and I want to get to this in the next part of our conversation. But before we do, I'm going to leave you with that. Like we're going to get to something bigger and something better. Let's hear a word from our sponsors who are helping us have this conversation. Well, welcome back. Melissa was just thinking about what you were saying before we took that break. And I used to get so irritated with my husband for the way he phrases something over and he still does it. But I've learned how, how helpful it is. But he always says, like, this is the house that the Lord's letting us live in or this is the car that the Lord is letting us drive. And I used to just be like, okay, I got it, you know, like whatever it is. This is the vacation the Lord is letting us have. And it's so helpful to do exactly what you're just saying is to even just say those things to ourselves and to others, just as a reminder of like this all belongs, this all belongs to him. Well, I want to ask a question about friendships because in this, so we've kind of said materialism is in all of us, at least the big umbrella of covetousness for sure is in all of us. And materialism in one form or fashion, I think is back to your points, Jen, like this is part of the culture in which God ordained that we live and move and have our being. But what effect do friendships have on either the inner some crease of materialism in our own hearts and minds, or the battle against that materialism. - Yeah, I think friendships are huge because we are communal people. Made in God's image, we need community, we're made for community. And so friendships, the people of God have to play a role here. And I think it's so interesting, especially in the American church, how taboo finances are. I mean, our Bible studies and our pastors can preach about so many things that are uncomfortable and awkward. But when they start to talk about money, this is like the one, I think this is one area where we're freaking out. I mean, everybody is suddenly totally uncomfortable, totally nervous, the pastor's making nervous jokes from up front, you know, he's like, I've gotta go here. It's just so taboo. How many people know what your income is, what you give, what you save, like who's looking at your spreadsheet, who's looking at your accounts? I think it is key that we invite our brothers and sisters into that conversation because nothing good happens in the dark, nothing good grows in secret. And so what if we invited other believers that we trust and I'm not saying, you know, everybody needs to put it up on a PowerPoint in front of their Sunday morning worship, but like a couple of friends, hey, come see, oh, good, Jen, it's so hard. It's so hard. Well, even if you're talking and I'm like, okay, what is my, why is my heart resistant to that? You know, you know, and it's like, wow, that is, I had a friend that was very open about her giving and I just at first remember thinking, do not let your right hand know what your left hand is doing. Like you should not be talking about that, but it was so helpful. Like it was just so, she was not doing it in a pregnant-ish way, but it was, it was, it compelled me towards more financial generosity because I was like, oh, that's a great example. And we do that in other things, right? We do it in everything. I go to the gym with friends because I want to work out harder. So I should probably go to my bank with my friends so I can give harder. Like we need other people to spur us on in this. Just yesterday, I was thinking about a woman, she's now with the Lord. And she and her husband made a really conscious decision that they were gonna live on a certain amount. And I don't know what the amount was. I'm sure, you know, they were doing fine or whatever and I'm sure it went up, cost of living increases, I'm sure we're in there. They're very financially astute and aware. And after that, they would just give everything away. So they made this decision and every year, they just went his job when increasing. He made, yeah, he did very well. They just gave more away. So rather than get the new this, the new that, the new whatever, which is what we're all tempted to do. Oh, now I have this, let's add this on. Let's do this. Let's put it, they just chose to give it away. And what I will say is even yesterday, I mean, she's been with the Lord now. I can't remember even how many years ago she died. I'm still thinking about it. Yeah, they were an older couple in the church and they would teach on financial, they would do crown, you know, stuff, they would teach a lot of financial resources, things. And, but learning from the generosity of others and really being a witness in that of, oh, wow, my life is not the sum of my possessions, but maybe I want to be known as the biggest giver rather than the one who had the right curtains, hanging in my living room. Yeah, I mean, honestly, like, but oh, no. And I don't know where they were giving. Do you know what I mean? I just know they were choosing, they chose a lifestyle. That was the lifestyle they chose. I love that. I'm still kind of stuck on Jen's thought of like inviting people in. So I just, like I just made the decision and purchased a new car because my other car was paid off. We had decided to do payments and so I did that. And then I was like, well, I can just start, you know, it won't be any different. If I get a new car and just kind of continue the payments. And I'm like, what if I invited somebody in and kind of laid out our financials? And Sam Melissa said, you know, Courtney, what if you deferred that for a year and those payments went towards something else? And then you got the new car. You know, like that is just so, I mean, I'm just like, I'm still kind of reeling through all the ramifications of what that could actually mean to be having conversations about how we can be more generous in the context of actually knowing each other and like saying, this is something you could do and like speaking into that. Because like Melissa and I, I mean, like we'll talk about, like you said, how we go to the gym or what we want to lose or what we want to, you know, or the new clothes, we're gonna, like we talk about those things, but are we having those kind of conversations on like how could, where are, help me see, help me look at this and see places that I could be generous. That's really wow. Yeah, I don't like that. I thought about it. I shouldn't have brought it up. (laughing) But here's like everything though. We always want the other line. Yeah, I know. We don't want the line to be how, it's kind of like when you're dating, you didn't want the line to be-- How much can I get away with? How pure can we be? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not bad. It was, what can we go up to and it be okay? So this gets into everything, right? Like, so all these issues on what's it okay to spend money on like whether it's a facial cream or Botox, you know, whatever it might be, I said the B word, I'm gonna get in trouble. (laughing) We're not allowed to talk about Botox. But like, oh, yeah, we need, but it's different to say, well, could that money be used for something else? Which is really nitty gritty in my soul. And it's like, oh, let's stop confronting me with the Holy One of Israel. Uh-uh. Like, don't get in my business. You know, whereas we need people to get in our business. Yeah. We do. And here's the thing for those who are listening and just to remind us, like the point isn't guilt and self-loathing and the point isn't feeling bad and making up for it. Like, well, we're, you know, globally speaking, we're pretty rich. So how are we gonna sort of pay penance for that? That is not the point. I love Jesus's heart after the parable of the rich fool. Jesus is so tender and he says, don't worry. My father knows what you need before you even ask him. He calls the people listening his little flock. And it's like the most compassionate language. And so what I want us to remember is our feeling of insecurity and I need to protect myself. I need to hoard my stuff. I've got a plan for the future because my life is fragile. The Lord sees that and he looks on us with compassion and says, my father's gonna provide for you. But here's what's wisdom. Wisdom is storing up treasure in heaven. It is foolish for you to store it here and now. And so Christ's heart in this is that we would not settle for the lesser gifts, the lesser life, the temporary. He's like, no, go harder, go further, go beyond the here and now. And we need the Word of God, the Spirit of God and the people of God to help us do that. And I think in our American context where our faith is not just personal, but it tends to be very private. We really short circuit ourselves here. We really cut ourselves off from actual joy and growth and sanctification and freedom from materialism by not inviting our siblings in to really provoke us and to spur us toward us a way of life that is living for heaven rather than for earth. I think that's so good because, and I want us to talk a little bit about like, how does heavenly mindedness change and totally transform this whole conversation? Because one analogy, and it was really helpful for me, you've lived overseas, Jen, too. I lived overseas when my husband was just PhD work and it was so great to live in a rented house because you just, you learn a lot about what you don't need. - Yeah, I moved to Scotland with four suitcases and I remember thinking, I always know now I can live with four suitcases and I could live with less even. But it was really helpful. One image that would come to mind a lot is the belief that this world's an airport and my home is heaven. And if I would view this world like that, I would laugh a little bit more about my possessions and think about them very differently. Because if we saw someone in an airport unpacking in the middle of the airport, their cappuccino maker and say, no, no, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make everything feel like home and I've got my bed here in my other suitcase. I'm gonna pull that out in a minute. We'd be like, what are you doing? You're in the airport. You're trying to get home. That's where you have your little cappuccino maker and your nice bed and all that stuff. You know, we would laugh together and we'd be like, that's foolish to bring all this stuff with you and care so much about it in the airport. There's a whole place prepared for you where you're gonna feel wonderful, you know, about being actually home. And I think though, it's our longing, our deep longing for home that makes us think we can make these homes our homes. So how can we fix our eyes? on heavenly things. So remind us not that these are unimportant places. We know that it's a little microcosm of of what's coming. That's it's a shadow. But how do we focus on the reality while we're living in the shadow lands? That's so good. And I'm glad that you you know reminded us to say out loud that this life does matter and this place does matter. You know, we're we're embodied souls and all of this does matter and it's good to cultivate. That's our calling. I think one question that has been helpful for me in playing this out in my life has been just repeating to myself, what does it look like for me to love my neighbor as myself? If that's what I want, how do I love my neighbor with that? You know, how can I extend that same desire to them? And so that's been very helpful in terms of giving to different places or different causes or suffering or the church, whatever. But I think if we view others and say they deserve what I think I deserve, that can be very, very helpful. You know, we are given those commands to love God and love others. So we've got to ask, how can I do that with with the finances that I have right now? What would it look like to show God? I love him and other people that I love these other people, these image bears as well. How can I show love by leveraging all that I have for them? I love that asking the question are thinking the thought that other people deserve what I deserve? That kind of gets back to how Melissa you were talking about the way you view. Like, why deserve this? I've earned it. But thinking somebody else deserves it as much as I do. That's a really that's a that's a really healthy balance of holding all kind of everything we've talked about intention. That's I just find that really helpful. But I also think like the idea of having a a more robust understanding and knowledge of what is to come. I think most of us have such an anemic view of heaven and the new heavens and the new earth and what's to come in the next life and the surety of it, like the the concreteness of it. And so increasing your knowledge base so that you can long for this thing so that you know what it's like. I mean, I Brandy Alcorn's book on heaven has got to be just life changing. Life changing, right? And there have been some he has a truncated version. If you look at it and it's just too big and there have been some others that have come out recently that really take his work. And we can put some of those in the show notes. But it's it's so helpful to get excited about the beauty and the abundance and the glory of the life to come. And I do think that's what helps untether us. Like you were saying Melissa helps us realize, oh, this is just the airport where I'm going is glorious. And I can hardly wait to get there. And if our resources can be used by the Lord help more people get there. Yeah. Absolutely. Like what an honor to get to be a part of that. No regrets. It's like, it's us to use our resources to be a part of furnishing heaven. It's all him. But he allows us to play a role in that. And what what a thing that we actually are allowed to store up treasure in heaven. So good. Because it's all his. But he somehow lets us use what's happening in this life to build things that will last. Yeah. You know, we're in the behind. Yeah. Yeah. He does not treat us as our sins deserve. So grateful. Well, Jen, thank you so much for joining us on the deep dish and talking about these things. I know Melissa and I both are saying, wow, truly can be like, it's not, we're not just saying that. Like there's been some conviction. There's been I've had a shift in the way that I think about some of these things. And I'm going to once we get off of this episode, I'm going to actually write some of them down and and keep them in my Bible to pray about them. Because I don't want this to just be like, oh, that was kind of convicting. And then and then move on. So thank you for bringing your wisdom and your thoughtfulness to this conversation. So our last question for you today is, what is something that is not material that you love or that enriches your life? Yes. Well, I think this actually is probably points towards heaven as well. One of my favorite things to do is to sit on my back patio around the fire pit with the twinkle lights on and with my family, with my friend, with whoever, you know, just a sweet slow. I tend to, you know, go hard. And so when I slow down and just enjoy the beauty of the Colorado outdoors and the beauty of the people, maybe the beauty of some yummy food around that fire pit, I don't know why I don't do that more often. It's it's such a good gift. That's beautiful. Melissa and I definitely can both resonate with that. We really, really enjoy the same thing. Well, friends, we hope that you have enjoyed this episode of the deep dish from the gospel coalition. If you have found it helpful, please share it, like it, a comment. We'd love to have a conversation about it and we will see you next time.