Festival Strategy with Warren Etheredge!

She just wants to get to know the real you Oh, yes, too late The end of my life she's left here to be end She'll be her best friend after God tells her God for me Because my decision is so complete She doesn't care if you ever make up the one we can do all the truth Just sit back in the back and time will fly by Here in a way, here we go Hello, I know I said we were on a break but I just couldn't resist Bringing you a very special episode today if you are just showing up here for the first time I'm the animators friend in Dillon Bardy bellow But today's not my usual animator interview I have Warren Ethridge who is a festival director and film producer, author, playwright, public speaker He's a multi-hyphenate on the podcast to talk about festival strategy It's something that comes up a lot in my conversations with students, friends, acquaintances Like how do you approach the whole festival game? And it can be intimidating or just overwhelming to kind of understand how it works So Warren had come to my thesis class last year and gave a presentation on festival strategy And I thought it was so helpful, it really makes sense of everything And I was just like it'd be great to have this as just like a resource that's available to anybody at any time So very grateful that he agreed to share his knowledge on the podcast So just a little bit more about Warren He is a producer, he's produced many films over his career He's also an educator, he teaches screenwriting and filmmaking at the University of Washington And Cornish College of Arts He's the founding faculty of the film school and the Red Badge project Which helps combat veterans work through PTSD and other issues by teaching them the art of storytelling Most relevantly, he is the co-founder and curator of the Walla Walla Movie Crush Film Festival And Warren was very generous to, because this is actually, you know, there's actually a lot of festival submissions That kind of are gearing up now, like with like early summer deadlines So good timing for this episode to come out, I think And to that end, Warren was very generous to create a promo code on film freeway For anybody who wants to submit work to Walla Walla Movie Crush The promo code is, India is awesome Just no capitalization or anything like that You know, get 75% off, which is pretty, pretty sweet deal Short's only festival, so everything has to be 30 minutes or less Has to be made since January 1st of 2025 So made within the last little over a year And just to go back real fast to the break that I am on currently Like I've said, if you're following along Still conducting interviews clearly It's not like I've ceased all operations, I'm just taking a break from releasing Episode just so I can kind of catch up and have a longer deadline I think I'm gonna go back to once a month structure Or like I should say at least once a month rather than at least twice a month structure It's more manageable for me right now And planning to come back in full for mid-April And people keep asking me like they're like, "Is everything okay?" Everything's fine, I'm totally fine Just you know, it's good to take a break sometimes Sometimes you need to like rest, I just needed a little rest Just been a busy spring Or it wasn't and then it was and then it wasn't And then it was, that's how it's felt So I just needed like a little space to reorient myself And it's been good, it's been worthwhile Even though I'm on this break, so many things keep coming up that are exciting And that I will be doing, it would seem It would seem that I will be doing red carpet coverage For the Museum of Moving Images Marvels of Media Festival, which celebrates autistic media makers And this is happening starting this Thursday, March 26th and runs through to the 28th I got the press release for it and saw that Danny Bowman is attached If you love on the spectrum, like I do I was like, "Oh my god, so I just I reached out and they invited me to do carpet coverage" Because I guess it is a carpeted event So me and my intern, or Nash Kundu, will be there on Thursday For the opening night program, the Human Condition, which spotlights three works by autistic media makers that explore universal struggles with communication and connection Real makers include Tall Anderson, Jacob Leonard, and Stephen Frazier There's more animation programming on Saturday with their family program, which is all ages animation The wonderful world of Danny Mason with Danny Bowman, showing work from her students So if you're in New York City this weekend, check it out at the Museum of Moving Image Another New York, sorry, I've got a lot of New York oriented stuff to share But at Metrograph starting this Friday, March 27th, they are showing in collaboration with GKIDS, the film, the feature film Leggro non troppo by the Maestro of animated anarchy, Bruno Bozetto It's from 1976, it is in direct response to Disney's Fantasia I got the chance to see the film last week And it's so good, I already like Bruno Bozetto's work, I was already familiar with it I don't think I've seen any elements of this film ever, but it's just so funny All the animated sequences are kind of cushioned within this kind of live action scenario of the orchestra and the conductor and the animator All together in a room creating and it's so Italian, it's really funny, absurd And the animations themselves just have all the pieces that I think make Bruno Bozetto's work impactful I feel like he's really interested in how foolish humans are and how we destroy everything around us and then in turn destroy ourselves And somehow he approaches these topics with so much humor, so much irreverence, but also so much heart at the same time And they're just so good, and some of them are super direct responses to Fantasia There is a dinosaur sequence, there is a kind of very sequence, but much more Because Disney loves to kind of just put a nice little bow on everything, everything's good, everything's fine I feel like again a more European sensibility, a lot of the films don't leave you feeling like everything's okay Things are complicated, sometimes there's not a happy ending, it's really, really, really good I can't recommend it enough, do not miss it It opens on March 27th and runs through to April 2nd and then Fantasia is showing on the 29th and the 2nd And finally another. Animation program at Metrograph beginning April 5th is the weird and wonderful world of check animation I'm just going to read the statement for you. It is widely speculated that the particular check genius for stop motion animation Springs from a local tradition of puppet theater that reaches back centuries Whatever its origins from the post-war golden age Right down to the present day. There has been abundant evidence on offer of this particular exceptionalism in the weird and wonderful world of check animation We take a broad view of this tradition of national excellence that encompasses the handcraft learical classics by Hermana Tolova the mother of check animation the fantastic world building of Carol Zeman the surrealism tinged off to disturbing efforts of Jerry Bartha and Yance Fah, I never know how to say his name is spank Spank Meyer I think is how you pronounce it and the contemporary output of Daria Kashiva whose Short daughter was nominated for a 2020 Academy Award and who will be joining Metro graph to present a program of her work and other recent check animated shorts of note this program is in collaboration with the Czech Center of New York and Yeah, there's just like lots of really cool Screenings you can see the pied Piper and the vanished world of gloves by Jerry Bartha the Daria Kashiva shorts program Alice by Jan Schwenk Schwenk mayor Really sorry Shorts just like a Czech shorts program and Invention for destruction by Carol Zeman and that all starts on April 5th and runs through to April 18th Just wanted to share those with you just some exciting events coming down the pike that I think you'd all like Quick sponsor notes Camp snap it's a digital Screen-free camera digital camera But the look of it is like film when you actually put it onto your computer. It's very cool. I love it I use it in my personal life I use it for the podcast and you can get a Camp snap product they also have video cameras too and they just added You can get like a microphone like a shotgun microphone for the camera which I thought was a really cool Nice touch you can get five dollars off any purchase on the camp snap website using the link in my bio and If you're interested in podcasting I recommend using pod bean which is the platform that I use to distribute my podcast You can sign up for a free trial as either like you know an individual or as a business entity Using the links in my bio and if you are interested in advertising on pod bean There's also a link in my bio to get started with that So yes, let's go into my chat about festival strategy with Warren ethridge I think you're gonna find it really helpful and just like Making sense of the festival thing and how to get started and how to sustain you know It's a stain over the course of your whole creative career And I think that like yeah if you have a film right now, but you're like what do I do it that listen to this all the way through take notes But it's also here for you whenever you need let's listen to my chat with my friend Warren ethridge I mean do you want to maybe start by just like talking about like your own background and like your festivals that you do and like how you even got into like Festival direction in the first place How did I get to short film? You know, I've always loved films. I wanted to be a filmmaker I guess I am a filmmaker But I have done a lot of programming over the years when I left New York I was working and writing in television and I moved to Seattle without having checked to see if there was any industry there Which there is not which was a surprise So I wound up through an odd series of events working at the Seattle International Film Festival And sort of immediately loved it. I did a lot of different jobs, but I loved the programming part And then I returned to short films which I had known in school. I just love shorts I love shorts And so I was a shorts programmer there and then I got the opportunity to take over as a curator for the one real film festival I bumble-shoot which was by the time it's done the best attended short film festival anywhere and that's just planted the seed and I really want to do that and so I Screened and programmed for a number of other festivals. I've launched a bunch of festivals But my baby is the wall-a-wallow movie crush Which is just voted one of the 25 coolest film festivals in the world which I'm happy they're over 12,000 so happy to be in Top 25 who who Determined My friends no And I was movie maker magazine cool and it's all shorts festival I love it's exactly what I want to do. It's very unorthodox and We're entering our 10th year this summer and for it. I watched 2500 shorts or so every year I estimate that I've seen over 40,000 pieces of short-form content by now and I don't know if it's made me smarter, but I certainly have seen more than most anybody Yeah, it's a hard to not like get like jaded and just be like oh my god Sometimes I think it is jaded, but often I just think of this depressed I I sometimes get very sad and I'm not being hyperbolic I get very sad sometimes because I just see what feels like the same thing over and over again and That really bums me out. Yeah, yeah, I get that I mean part of what's so exciting about having this conversation with you is Also, there's the stuff that bums me out, but there's also stuff like there's playing good material from good filmmakers making stuff We have no idea how to get it out into the world And so I'm constantly like searching and digging for things and if people just understood how to get it out there better in the world Yeah, would all be happier filmmakers programmers audiences ever would be happier. Yeah, no, I agree I mean like I'm not a festival director, but like just in my life and just like kind of seeing things at like we were just talking about like There's all these screenings. It's not like on the world stage at all But then it's like you see incredible working like I wish more people could see this I actually just shared something that I saw there It wasn't an animation but with like one of my students, but it was like oh my god How do I even find yeah, I don't know. It's like yeah, but it's kind of it is inspiring to be like there's so there is good work out There's just a matter of like how do you how do you do it and how and from from the programmer side How do you find it because sometimes it feels like filmmakers you know Submit work Within walking distance of their house and anything beyond that is is Sundance. Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was gonna say just like about wall-a-wall it comes up often on my podcast with my conversations Everybody loves it. It's a favorite Yeah, maybe get ticked. I mean they'll go this Please I Actually do have a An animation that I just made like maybe I maybe I should Fee-waved Actually, and that kind of is part of like one of your tips is just like it's so important to Be in touch Mm-hmm with the programmers like even if it's just like saying like hey, I just submitted. I'm so excited And if you're like you know like because the money thing can really add up You know even if it's like you know $30 for something might not seem a lot But if you're doing it for like a bunch of festivals. That's like a lot a lot a lot of money So even to like reach out to be like hey like I'm a student or whatever like to ask her like hey Is there anything that you can do to help you know? Yeah, I think that you know there are two parts to that. I think contact is so so important You we can just talk about on the pragmatic level, which is yeah I believe that everybody should reach out to festivals and ask for a fee waiver You're not gonna get them all the time you may get a discount you may not get anything You may even get like a form like no But it's worth trying yeah Because the money really does add up quickly. I've done it as a producer just like wow You know, it's just money just flies out and we can't sustain that as Filmmakers so always do that but the more important part to me is just making contact Because if you want to be somewhat cynical about it, it's harder to reject somebody you know even if it's through email but the more positive way to look at that is that I'll have email exchanges with filmmakers that have never met them or something like that But I start to feel a connection and then I watch their films in A different frame of mind than I would otherwise and that may seem like a tiny thing and believe me I tried to remain as unbiased as possible watching anything But there is no question that if you can get a programmer interested in watching your film it's seen differently. Yeah Obviously knowing somebody having some touchpoint in life common. I do a lot of work teaching storytelling to veterans and somebody will reach out having known that or discovered that about me and saying something about their connection to veterans or saying like they're from a military family. I'm like, okay, I'll take like again, it's the tiniest things can form a connection. And again, it's been psychologically proven. The second that you feel a connection, you have a greater, more compassionate way of considering any ask they make of you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like a fee wearer. Yes, totally. Or an extension or feedback or whatever it may be. And then you also were talking to about like even just beyond like maybe like emailing the organizers but also within like film freeway or maybe other kind of submission forms. You can also include things like a cover letter. Yeah. And things like that, like kind of like materials that maybe people would be hesitant to like be like, why would I, why would I do this? But what are your thoughts about like the kind of supplemental materials that they might not think are so important. They're so important to me. They make such a difference. I love the cover letters on film freeway. I think they're really missed opportunity for the majority. And many people just repurpose their filmmaker statement, director statement, and make that the cover letter which you know, I don't need to read it twice. And again, if it's not actually a letter to me or the movie crush, I don't really care if it's a form thing, it doesn't make a difference. But it's an opportunity. And if you don't know the festival, why are you applying? Yeah. You know, that to me is a weird thing. It's like if you don't have a reason to submit a particular festival, then you don't have a good reason to write the cover letter, which means let's just save the money. Even if it's Sundance, you can write something about even if you didn't know somebody can talk about why Sundance is important to you. I know it's important to seemingly everybody. But you could talk about why that matters. Like why does that little seal of approval matter to you in a way that might not tell anybody else? You could say, oh, I'm an animator. And animators have it hard. And like, you know, it's really hard on the mainstream circuit. So to have the approval of something like Sundance would actually elevate my film. And to me, it's not about the start of my celebrity. It's just about I want this work seen because I feel like animation has been sort of get-wise too long. But you know, that would be my cover letter to Sundance. That's a great cover letter. It's just like another opportunity to make it personal. Give more body to your submission. Could you talk more, I guess, about like determining what festivals you would submit to? Because you could just select the bunch just because you're like, I just want to get something. But is that the right approach? I don't think it's. I know there's some people who feel differently. I don't believe in the collection of laurels, just for laurels sake. I have a very dear friend who is a filmmaker and a talented filmmaker. But not every project is great. But often seems to have the resources to apply to everything. And winds up, you know, at one point their postcard for film. I couldn't see the poster anymore because all of the laurels. But you know, it was like the. It was the Brooklyn Heights independent short film festivals. And like, no offense to Brooklyn Heights. I don't think that is a festival. But it could be. Like at some point it's sort of who cares. And again, it's like, do you actually have a reason and a purpose for screening there other than the sort of ego boost of it? So yeah, I think you should be really specific about why you're submitting to a particular festival. I think you should really study the festivals. I think you should talk to other filmmakers and see which ones they like. There's some very political concerns about which ones to premiere at and what will elevate your status. But yeah, I'm frustrated all the time by people who submit work to festivals that shouldn't go there. Like, do you not do even the baris bit of research to recognize they don't want what you're giving them? I mean, every year the wall of one movie crush has a short film festival. It clearly says films under 30 minutes. Every year I get letters through film three way about I have a 75-minute feature. But I consider it short. Like, no, no, no. Yes, next to Project Hell Marriott's short, but it's still not short. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's a lot of that. And that's just like a huge kind of waste of time and resources to submit to something that you would never, like you don't even really qualify for it. Yeah. And I've seen people like, you know, submit horror shorts and there's nothing wrong with those. I think they're great. They're plenty great genre festivals and horror can often go into mainstream festivals and they're playing midnight fest like South by Southwest as a division for that. But, you know, submitting a horror film to Heartland or indie shorts now is just a diotic. And then also just in thinking of like the amount of festivals that exist out there that you could apply for and that you could just add to Cart a million. There are also scam festivals. Scams galore. Yeah. What does a scam festival look like? And what is the purpose of a scam festival? Like why was somebody do that? For the for the festival. Yeah. Oh, because they can make a lot of money off of suckers. Yeah. I mean, it's really sad. I you know, if they're 12,000 plus festivals in the world, I hate to guess at how many were scams, but I think it's a greater percentage that would like to admit. Generally, they you can spot them because they try to take advantage of something geographically. They're they're plenty in and around New York that are total scams. The way I generally identify them is that they're really sketchy in terms of what the screening details are. They offer no support to fly you out, put you up. They don't even offer you a pass. The film makers is getting a couple tickets for their screening. And the other sign is generally that there too many damn awards. Yeah. So if you see a festival that's giving out 40 awards and they only screen 40 films. Yeah. That's your indication. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I guess just like taking advantage of artists who just want to like get their stuff out there, which is cruel. It really, it's really, it's really it's really awful. Yeah. And also I think like I feel like I remember too that there's some festivals that there's just like not even a physical thing. Like it's just like, oh, you got in like here's your Laurel. And you just basically paid like whatever, I don't know, I'm just saying $30. $30 or whatever for like a Laurel. Like for a PNG. Yeah. And if it's a festival that says they have monthly screenings like that is a scam. You know, they're there are tons of scams. What I tell my friends, my students and everybody on this podcast is when in doubt email me and I'll tell you whether or not that's very nice. It's so upsetting to me. Yeah. It is upsetting. It is upsetting. Yeah. And was there also a thing of like if it's not been around for a certain number of years, that that's like concerning or I mean it's complicated because some people are just like starting something out. I mean as somebody who's launched a bunch of festivals like it's a hard one like, yeah, I think it's reason to to think. Yeah. But there are legit festivals that are just starting and things start sometime. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Summer shorts film festival in New Paul's New York is legit or entering year four. Sorry. Yes. No, this is an opportunity to plug. It's an opportunity to plug. And then you had brought up premier politics. So I was wondering if maybe you could just go over like your thoughts about just like the general like festival life of your film. Certainly. Timing, scheduling, strategy, all really important. You know, basically films have about, especially shorts have about an 18 month shelf life. And the clock starts ticking. We could argue either with first rejection or first acceptance. Premiers are really, really important. So determining where you want to premiere figures crossed is really significant. I would start the clock with the festivals around that time. So for instance, if you did want to premiere at Sundance as everybody does, I tell you don't. Because Sundance amazingly is one of the few big festivals that doesn't concern themselves with premieres for shorts. So you can wait a year on Sundance, which would be smarter. But if you were going there, you're sort of looking like, oh, I'm going to apply to all the early year stuff. So it's going to be Sundance and Palm Springs and I guess South by in March and Claremont Ferrand in February. So you had you you're looking at one of those to be your premiere. And then if you don't get one of those and you're looking for the next wave of things. But you want to you want to start as big as you can. And then sort of cycle through things. And I can't stress this enough. Make your completion date on Film Pro Way as late as you possibly can. So if you premiere at Sundance in January 20th, 2027, your completion date should be January 19th, 2027. That window that 18 months window is expanded by keeping your production date as late as it can be. Yes. Well, I guess just. - Just like animation oriented festivals, those big ones might be things like fantasy or Ottawa or there's like a whole slew of like great European festivals, like animal fest, which I also want to also note that a little bit different than I think live action film is that a lot of times those big ones for animation are free submissions, which I remember. - What was the last time you were like what? - What is like the fee for like a big festival usually? - I mean, sometimes they start at $75. - Well, that's crazy. - It's nuts. I mean, we work really hard at the movie crush to keep the rates really low. And I think when we open submissions, I think it's $10. You know, I just want it to be as democratic as possible. And I think only, you know, with weeks to go, do we make it $50 or something? Like I think that's as high as we get. - Yeah. - But I think that's another thing. They look for the large fees, like be really a leery of the large fees. And also just consider like, do I, is it worth it? Is it, you know, and especially when it gets to 90 bucks, 100 bucks or something like like, I don't know, there's any place I want to play that. - Yeah. - I'm cheap. Basically when it comes to that. - Well, I also just feel like for a bigger festival, it feels like they should have more resources to kind of alleviate that financial pressure at the submission phase. And maybe, yeah, I don't know, like it just seems a little crazy. - Well, I think, I mean, they'd take in a lot of money. That's for the, I mean, that's what they'd take in a lot of money through the submission fees. I sort of get it, but it's still-- - But I feel like they get so many sponsorships and stuff too. I don't know, it just seems a little crazy. - I don't think there's enough, you know, one of the reasons I waive fees, where I try to keep the rates low is that there is no film festival without the filmmakers. And we can think of that as, oh, the filmmakers you program, but it really wouldn't be without, that's the films in the filmmakers period. Everybody, everybody who submits makes it possible. So, and knowing how hard a job that is and how, you know, there's no fiscal reward for a maker of a short film, I just, I think it's nuts to keep exploiting them. - Agreed. Agreed, you have to take care of our artists. - Yeah, especially now. - I would rather charge, and I don't, but I'd rather charge the audience more than the filmmakers. - Yeah, I think that makes sense. - We didn't actually talk about the assets for Film Freeway nearly enough. So there's the cover letter that can take care of on Film Freeway, but every other choice you make on Film Freeway is more impactful than you think it is, or at least it is from my end. When you open Film Freeway, there's an image from your film at the top, where it might be the player or the link to Vimeo, whatever. Choose that image carefully. It's nuts to me, and even with some good films, like those, choose sort of a poorly framed image, or like a lesser frame from an animation. And just like, that's your time to actually like, wow me in a second with like, oh, this is visual. Okay, that's exciting. That plus the stills, and you can provide that. It just makes no sense. And again, I'd say nine out of 10 times, they're really good indicators of the quality of the project. You can see it almost instantly. So take advantage of that. Like, don't shoot yourself on the foot. And take advantage of the bio, take advantage of the director's statement, you know, well, while I always feel a little uncomfortable saying this, it just happens to be true that in your bio, I would put in any identifiers that may be appealing to film festivals. Would like to say that a lot of film festivals are diversifying programming out of the goodness of their heart, but sometimes it's a very political, very performative sort of thing. And if you can work that loophole more power to you, so I would not be disinclined to put that information in my bio. And then in the director's statement, I think you have a chance to actually express both what your film is about, but also what you're about, you know, and more than like, I just like to make films that entertain people, okay, great fantastic, you know. Really tell me something about who you are, what you're about. And those, essentially all these things again, should not change or impact or create a bias in the screening of films, but it has a huge impact with the films that are on the bubble. Right, so I think I've said this with you before, I think out of 2500 short, some people think like, oh my, it must be so hard to pick them at the movie crush we wind up with about 100, but it's not like I'm choosing from 2500. There are 100 that should never have seen the light of day. (laughing) - Yeah. - And there are 2,200, which are that depressing fine. - Yeah. - And then there are about 200 maybe to choose from to get to the 100. And it's really in that 150 of those 200 that are competing where those things, the director statement, the bio, the contact, the connection, that does have, that is influential. - Yeah. - And you know, that's where you see like, oh, if I have a history with a filmmaker and I've shown their work before and it's on the bubble, I'm probably gonna favor that individual slightly. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I now have an investment in their career trajectory. I feel very protective of the filmmakers who are what we call crush fam. - Yeah. - Yeah. Could you also talk about like the importance of the log line? - You'll get different advice from different people about this. I think the log lines way I think of coming attractions for movies recently Project Hail Mary came out. I was lucky enough to host an advanced screening of it. But since then, I've seen the trailer for it and it is not about the movie being good or bad, but the trailer kills the movie by spoiling every bit of suspense in it. And log lines do that sometimes too. They treat it as if it should summarize the entire thing. Like, oh my god, this is crazy. Like I have no reason to watch it. So my advice is always to make it as short as you can, two sentences max and end with a question. Don't tell us what's gonna happen. Leave us hanging. Create the cliff hanger that makes me wanna watch it. That's the big thing I would do with a log line. - When you say end with a question, you don't mean like literally end it with like a-- - Oh, I do. - You mean literally end with like a question mark? Well, you're leaving the person that's reading it with a question in their mind. - What the hell? What the hell? Leave it with a literal question mark. Like, you know, yeah, I would try to leave it with a literal question mark. - Okay, interesting. Interesting. - Paid dog marker meets Grave Digger at a speed dating event. Will they bury the past or will they would have died on hand? You know, some nonsense like that. But like that's gonna make me okay. I'm curious. - Yeah, that's what? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, leaving a lot of room for intrigue. Yeah. I always try to tell my students, 'cause we do a lot of this stuff in my thesis class. Like also just like thinking about like your word choices and like what are like kind of some like tasty words that you can throw into that really stand out. You know what I mean? It doesn't have to be like that it's so outside of like how you would normally write or talk. It's just like making it like eye popping, you know, to the reader. - Absolutely, 'cause if you can, if your log line is flat, why would I believe that you're gonna write a good script? - Yeah. - Yeah. - You know, other advice I give to screen writers and filmmakers all the time, not just for log lines, but anywhere in those sorts like, let go of the ad verbs and choose more interesting verbs. I think that to your point about, you know? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I also wanted to like go back to talking about like images as well because something that I encounter with my students a lot and I think this is partially an animation. I mean, I think it's, I think everybody has a hard time being objective about their work, but I think that it's always like crazy to see the images that they pick to be like these are like the images I'm gonna use and I'm just like what? Like you know what I mean? It's like a common problem. Like that's just like people just like struggling with like picking images that are representative or that like do look interesting. And I don't know if it's, I mean something that we speculate is that maybe it's that like, oh, that's the image that they worked. The hardest on like that is the most labor and that's still and that's why they want to highlight that. But it's like maybe it doesn't actually like look interesting. So it's like being, like either trying to be objective about your own work to be like, what just like looks interesting. What is like a bright image? Like do you don't want like stuff this kind of like dark and dingy? I mean, if your if your film is that then you have to go with whatever I guess. But something that feels bright and dynamic. But then also I think good to like get the advice of like friends and just be like, hey, like it picks some images that you think are like are really strong to help give you that objective kind of like point of view. I think not only have you given my answer, but you answered a question that I had for you because I do think, curiously, it does seem more problematic with animation than anything else. That I've seen some animated films which I absolutely love and I look at the stills like random chance. Why are you representing this so poorly and I was going to ask you about why that might be? I think you gave it really good because that was my suspicion. Maybe it's something like, oh to them they know the backstory of that frame or something, but to me it means nothing. But I think your advice is definitely the advice you give not just for the stills, but for everything is run them by people that you not even that you like, but people that you respect and see what they have to say. You have those resources. I think filmmakers, but makers of shorts in particular and I have a feeling it's worse for makers of animated shorts. So insular. And we forget that not that we should make things for an audience, but it does require an audience at some point and you may want to get input. Yeah, it kind of takes a village. Right. Even if you made it all on your own, like, yeah, you need that input and that support from people that you respect and trust. The question's always freak out when I tell them this, but because I don't think I'm being serious, but I'm very serious when I am doing a screenplay reading of my work or I'm doing a test screening of something that I've produced, directed, what have you. I always invite an audience of people who I respect that don't necessarily like me. And I don't think they hate me or anything like that, but I don't invite my friend friends. I don't invite people who are inclined to make me feel good. I want people who are just going to be straight with me. Yeah. And it doesn't go terribly or anything like that. But I love hearing like, well, I don't like that. And I would want to do the same thing with a log line or it's just like run them by people who are not invested in you. Yeah. It's not the best reason. I just said that I made this animation and I shared it first with Kristian Michael and they are my friend friends. But I send them stuff all the time, just social media, and I feel like they're always very critical. I mean, they have no problem telling me what's wrong something. So I was like, I'll show it to them. And I feel like they'll give, they'll be a good one. But they were actually like, it's sick. And I was like, thank you. So I was like, wow, if they have no notes, it must be good. You know, um, cling, cling to those people really. Yeah. Yeah. I do. I did just get a note from a filmmaker thanking me for feedback that had given them a year ago. Yeah. And they were really pissed at me when I first gave them the feedback. Yeah. And then they said, like, I can now see that you were right. Yeah. Thank you. It's so hard. It's like, I'm embarrassed by how hard it is for me. To hear the feedback. Yeah. Because I think that a lot of times it's like, maybe it's even like, like if somebody gives me feedback. And it's a thought that I myself already had, but there was some sort of like complication that prevented me from, it's like, well, they don't get it. You know, they don't understand. You know, they don't get like what I've gone through. And like that, like, you know what I mean? And I get like, I get very, I mean, I don't like, I don't verbalize it because I've grown up. But I can't, I can't upset internal. You know, yeah. You're grown up externally. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So yeah, it's hard, but necessary, you know, because yeah, it's like if you can sit with it for a little bit, then it's like you can process it more and enact change and then be grateful for it. Leita. Yeah. I think again, if you can find the people who offer critique, not criticism, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a win. Yeah. Because and I always say to people, like, I think it is important to get feedback from people that you trust and that like really understand what you're trying to do. Like they could be critical and like say that like things really need work. But if it's coming from somebody that like you know is like on your side and just like wants you to succeed, then it's a very different thing. I feel like in my art school education, there's a lot of people that I encounter that it's like they don't care for my work. They certainly don't care for me. So it's like their criticism is just criticism. And it's like a lot of times I feel like sometimes people are just like trying to be like, I'm smarter than you. Rather than like actually giving you helpful feedback. So I think it's so important to just be like, yeah, who's perspective? Do I trust and who like actually cares about me in my film? Right. Yeah. Who cares about you and who cares about the work enough to have integrity? Yeah. But you're right. I think particularly in school, it's really hard because there's so much performative stuff. There's so much, yeah. There are people who are playing to a different audience than actually trying to help you. Yep. Yep. They suck. They do suck. They do suck. They do suck. They do suck. Yeah. I also wanted to like maybe like because we did talk a lot about like fine, natural stuff before just like your thoughts around like budget. Yeah, I think in budgeting. I think that filmmakers should budget for festivals at the beginning. I know that money's hard to come by, but just sort of having a sense of what are you willing to put aside? $500, $2,000. It makes a huge difference. Yeah. And one of the things that is forgotten in that is like there's the expense of the submission fee. It's once again going to try to get them all waved. And since I don't think we clarified it earlier, once you get into festival to particularly a better festival, then immediately write to festivals to say, I just played at Suts and Such. Can I get a fee waiver? And as you move down the tiers of festivals, the more likely they are to say yes. If you played at Aspen, you know, in April and you're applying to festivals in August and September and let them know. And I bet they waved the fee for you. So always do that. But the other part of the budgeting is to think about how much money you have to spend to travel to the festivals. And I'm a sort of big proponent of I would apply to fewer festivals and attend more. And so thinking about where can you get to? Where can you stay for free? Where do you want to go? Those things are really significant. Because to me, since there's not a fiscal payoff, essentially for short films, the payoff is the festival. And you know, there's the very lovely thing of like the payoff is getting to see your work with an audience, which yes, that is lovely. But the other payoff of it is like going to the festival, meeting other programmers, meeting other filmmakers. I feel like I have a large extended family that I've created, not just through the Crush but other festivals, but this idea of Crush Fam is not insignificant to me. I really feel very bonded to those individuals. And if I go to other cities and festivals and I see them and say, Oh, hey, there's a day. It's a really lovely sensation. And if you're not going to the festivals, you're just missing out on at least 50% of the value of them. Yeah, totally. And actually, that makes me think of you have this great, I don't know what it, I guess like a a op-ed about networking. Oh, yes. That I share with my students a lot too. Maybe could you give us a taste of like what your thoughts are on around? Because like that's like, it's one thing that it's like, oh my god, yeah, I'm like, I'm going to the festival and then like, you know, you said earlier, animators maybe a little bit more insular and sometimes it's a little more intimidating for you. But it's intimidating for everybody, especially if you're going for the first time and maybe you're on your own. How do you approach like making most connections in a way that feels like organic and by being human? I hate the word networking. And I hate the concept of networking. It's really crass and it seems so American to make everything transactional. And I think the first thing is like stop thinking about just transactional. I'm talking to a lot of students about this, talking to some graduates recently. I guess, disclaimer first, believe it or not, I think you know that I'm wildly introverted. I really am. I've just chosen work that is public-facing. Not sure why. But I'm happiest in a cave. And so it is not in my nature to, hey, let's go meet people like that awful. But it has to be done. And so, a couple things are important to me. Number one, when I go someplace, I think of myself as working in, again, not in a transactional way, but just like, this is my job right now. My job is to be extroverted, you know, to some degree. But the big thing is to stop thinking about like, what can these people do for me? That's an awful mindset to go in. And again, I'm just looking for the people I respect. So, if I I'm gonna meet other filmmakers. I wanna see their work. The best scenario is like go see their work and be impressed by something and then go talk to them about that. And just express your fondness for something. I've never met an artist who doesn't like to be complimented on their work, particularly if it's insightful compliments. Like just like, yeah, it's really good. But, and I'm sure this would play exceptionally well in terms of animation is like, I think animators have a better understanding of like process and whatever it's going through. And if you can see a piece of work and know like, oh my god, I can't admit, like either like, you understand exactly how they did it and I'm sort of blown away by it or like you have no idea how they did it. And that makes such a great conversation. And that's such a great way in and just talk about that. And you're not seeking anything from them. You're just connecting on an artist level. And I think that's easy. I mean, it doesn't take me much work if I see something that really moves me. It's not hard for me to tell someone, oh my god. Yeah. Thank you. I haven't felt that way in a long time. Like just thank you so much. Yeah. I don't want to get too personal, but it's just really resonated with me. And I'm just like, yeah. Who wouldn't want to hear that? Yeah. And then, you know, if they're a decent human being, and I think good art, 95% of the time comes from good people. And if they hear that, they're going to ask you something about yourself, then becomes conversation pretty quickly. And if they found out you're an animator as well, it seems likely that they'll ask you about your work. And then the doors open. Yeah. To me, the big, the big mind shift is not transactional. You're not selling them. You're not trying to give them something. Let them ask you for something. Having been on the other side, being pitched to, being asked for stuff is exceptionally awkward. Yeah. I don't want to be an ass. And I also don't want to listen to a pitch all the time. Sometimes like, look, man, I'm just, I'm just here for the open bar right now. Yeah. Yeah, because it's like, if you don't have anything to go off of other than like, I just met you. And you're like asking me to give you an opportunity. Yeah. It's really weird. But if you don't ask for anything, this is a big thing for me. And you just have this confidence, yeah, I'm an animator too. And like, keep it that, like, let the person become interested and engaged enough with you. And they know they're not dumb. And then they say, like, I'd really like to see your work. Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It happens that is so much more successful than thinking I got to get this thing from this person. Yep. Go with the flow. Yeah. So, you know, to me, what I always try to think about is that even for the introverts amongst us, even for the socially anxious amongst us, you know how to have conversations. You don't need a tutorial for how to have a conversation with your friends. Yeah. You can do this. It's the extra layers of bullshit that don't need to be there, that have been placed on us by the capitalistic notion of networking that really screw us over the most. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. I always say just be the best version of yourself. And you'll be fine. Yeah. Or at least the most interesting version of yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And also too, like I think when you do take out the transactional element of it, and you're just like, I'm just going to go and meet some people and see what happens. And then you make connections with people that last. And then it's like, maybe it's like years from then that like it can pay off in a way that you didn't expect or that like you would have hoped or whatever. But it can sometimes take a path that you couldn't have anticipated. Or like the person that you thought could give you some kind of an opportunity, and then it's like the person that you just made a genuine connection with that you didn't think there was crossover there that made sense. But it does, and it works out, and something comes from it. Yeah. That is so, so true. That is so smart. And to me, it's an act of faith. You know, it's faith that that's going to work out that way. And I don't know if this will be annoying or inspiring. But I think every job I've gotten in the last 35 years, 40 years, has been essentially offered to me. I may sometimes I had to go through an application process, but it's essentially invited to have the job. Yeah. And some of them just handed to me. But not because I was seeking them. Yeah. But because I've continued to do the work that I do, present myself the way that I do. Yeah. And then people would say, hey, would you do this thing? I have, I really do have great faith in that. Yeah. Yeah. And I can also, I guess, echo that like I, this year has professionally been a big shift for me. And I've gone just fully into teaching only. And it was so much of just like reaching out to my friends and just like other kind of connections that I've made over the years to be like, hey, you know, and like, and I've gotten so much from like what would be like my network, you know what I mean? And not from applying for anything. Like, traditional way. Like, it's not worked out. It's all been through. Um, my, my, my friends, you know, that I've got, that I've got an opportunity. So it's like, that's the thing. And some, I, I, I hear you and I'm happy. And I just hope that people listening, I think sometimes they hear the friend part and, and then turn that into like, it's all on who you know. And I don't think that's it. Like, we don't know each other that well. But what I can tell you candidly is like, your reputation is golden. Oh, thanks. The number of people who speak highly of you is really impressive. That's nice. It's, it's not the same. We don't have the same friend circles. It's just encountering people. And if your name comes up, it's always incredibly positive. And that's the friends you need. Those are the people you need to know, right? You're, you're making a good impression on everyone. And I think, you know, you clearly have artistic integrity, but you're also an incredibly decent human being. And that will always serve you exceptionally well. Thank you. That's nice. Know that you're talked about. That's nice. That's nice to hear. Nice to hear. Oh. I don't know that this fits in exactly. I just want to put a vote in for like, be, I mean, I say this to my students, like be vulnerable. Like to me, that's one of the first things I look for. Oh, that's something I can mention, you know, because I do get asked this question a lot, what I look for in a short or, and what I look for in a short is the same thing I look for feature. I look for in a book, look for short story is there three steps. Number one is confidence. And that is, can tell within seconds if the work is being made by somebody who's a confident artist, like, are they actually taking charge of their musulson or whatever the equivalent is an animation, which would be animation. Yeah. And the second is vulnerability. Is that, are they going to be honest or they're going to be vulnerable? Are they going to really invest something of themselves emotionally? And the third one is necessity. Like, is there real need for this piece to exist in the world? Something we didn't cover earlier. I mean, we talked about running it by people, you know, assessing your work at some point, I think, is really important. I've done this workshop before. It's been a while, but I love it called What's Wrong With This Picture. And I do it at different festivals. And the festival invites filmmakers whose work has been rejected to be screened by me and not having seen the work. And I do it sort of like the Gong Show Let's Some It Plenty. And then I stop it when I realize what's been rejected. But at the beginning of those workshops, you know, could have a room full of 300, 400 people or something like I ask, like, how many filmmakers they raise their hands. And then I ask, how many of you have been rejected and everybody raises their hands. And then how many people think you've been fairly rejected? Nobody raises their hands. Like everybody thinks somehow that their piece is brilliant. And I'm not trying to be a schmuck, but just like, chances are it's not, right? I don't look at anything I've done as perfect. And so there's something about developing an awareness and a willingness to have your work assessed. That is really important. Like your work's going to be enjoyed by some more than others. And part of that is making peace with rejection. And, you know, I know that if you make art, you're going to be rejected. And if you submit your work to a lot of festivals, you're going to be rejected a lot. It's just the nature. But so often those rejections come from mistakes the filmmakers made. Again, like submitting it to festivals that just don't have an interest in that. Like understand where you're really putting your work out, understand why you're being rejected. If you have been rejected, I really encourage people to follow up after not during, not before, but after the festival. Ask like, can I get some feedback? I try very, very hard to give feedback to every filmmaker who asks me for it. And that's the reason why I watch every single submission is that I want to know. I want to know why I turned it down. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's good advice. But make peace. Yeah. Because it's coming. Yeah, and also like I was thinking if you can assess your work and be like, okay, like to be realistic and be like, okay, these, it would fit with these festivals, but not with these or whatever. That's also like a way I think of protecting yourself too, to not be like, I'm going to submit it everywhere and it's going to get into all the big, but like I don't know, like to not be like delusional, but also like it's a way of protecting yourself to just be like, I'm not going to set myself up unnecessarily to be, because it's like even if like, you know, the biggest film festival, like yeah, maybe it's not likely to get in. It probably still, it still hurts, you know, and then you keep, if you're getting, if you put your work out to so many places that are just unrealistic and then it's like rejection on rejection on rejection, on rejection, like that's not good, even if the work could be good, it just wasn't a good fit. So it's like, yeah, like protect yourself to be like selective, you know, yeah, be selective and you don't have to be zen even about like I'm not saying like you should like, hey, rejection fantastic, but like it's just, it's just part of it. Yeah. I worked with a freelance writer who wall papered his office with all his rejection letters and he said he really liked it because he could look at his walls and be reminded that he's doing the work. I just think it's part of it. You don't have to love it. Yeah. You just have to be okay with it. It's just part of it. And don't, don't get them needlessly. Yeah. There's no point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. What if you get in somewhere and maybe there's a premier status complication and you're like, I think I can't be part of this festival now like you're rejecting the festival. Oh, so bad. It's so bad. That's why those, especially the premier politics are so important is that don't be applying to 40 other festivals when you really want to get into Santa Barbara, let's say, right? And then have to reject the festivals without even having heard from Santa Barbara necessarily. It's just rejecting a festival has serious consequences. You'll certainly probably never want to submit work to that festival again. And the weird thing or not weird, it's sort of obvious is like the festival circuit is fairly incestuous. It's fairly small, fairly incestuous. That word spreads and it's killer. So be really cautious about that. The other thing I'd say is like if you find yourself in that position, there's always a way to work around it somehow. I can't say what it is and it's not a short, but there was a feature that I was indirectly involved in that got an international premiere of and had also gotten into this American festival. And they're like, what we can't do is like, well, you know, just talk to that American festival and call it a work in progress screening and let's, you know, call it day, even up clearly, not because whatever. Like there's always a way to sort of work it out. But what you need to do is communicate with the other festival as quickly as you possibly can. Do you think it reflects poorly in the same way that rejecting a festival would if you reach out and you're like, oh, like I didn't realize that this was going, you know, like that. I'm in this pickle. It's sort of how quickly, how early you can do it. And then also too, I was just thinking, because I don't know if we covered this, but just like with premiere status, that there's different, there's all different kinds of premieres too. So like it's not just like, it's the premiere. It could just be like, it could be, it could be world premiere, it could be a regional premiere. And like that, like that also kind of is worth thinking about and like what I had to point. Those regional, I do not worry about like, you know, there's international and North America premiere, you know, or US premiere. Those are the only levels of premiere I'd really concern yourself with. There are certain politics depending on where you are. Like for me, one of the most annoying hurdles I have as a programmer, Walla Walla is four and a half, five hour drive from Seattle. Seattle International Film Festival, which once was a fairly significant festival, will not play any film, shorter feature that has screened anywhere else in the state before them. And it's just, it's nuts. Yeah. Nobody is in Walla Walla is, oh my god, it's played in Seattle. Like, you know, it's just crazy. But I, but I, for the most part, I think you can ignore anything after North American or US premiere. I would like to say for what's worth at Walla Walla at the movie crush, I do not concern myself with premieres at all. But, plenty of festivals do. I hope that's changing. I really like to think that's changing. I also don't care if it's like somebody's put it on YouTube. My attitude is as an audience member, I've never watched a movie and thought, damn it, did somebody else see it before me? Like, if it was good, who cares? Yeah. But they're still festivals and invested. Yeah. Yeah. The online thing too is like, I guess, like another, another thing to think about is like when you put it online. I mean, typically, I guess people just wait till that, you know, that 18 months is over to then be like, okay, now you can just like watch it. But I mean, I do see people do all kinds of, I feel like more now than ever. Like, people are just like, I'm just putting it up. And I'm still going to submit to festivals. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's, it's, you know, if it were me, I have been in this position. I think sort of waiting 12 months and putting online is a fine thing. I let the last, you know, the long tail of the festival circuit play out. They should not be complaining about that. You know, and the long tail of the festival of the 18 months is really getting into the, you know, third to fourth year festivals. And also the niche festivals. So I don't mean niche-like animation, but it's more like for me, you know, the Jewish film festival circuit. Bless them. They generally pay filmmakers. So that's a win. But you could probably travel the Jewish film festival circuit with a film for like three, four years. So I would put those on the back burner. Right. And the premier status doesn't matter. All those things. Let that go. The same thing is true with a slightly shorter lifespan for queer film festivals, et cetera. Take advantage. Yes. And do put online. Because at some point, ideally, the work should be seen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. The submission timeline for a festival. The earlier, the better. I would phrase it differently. I think you're doing yourself a slight disservice by submitting it very late. You know, that stuff that comes in the final wave. Once again, it's going to get seen, but you're not doing yourself any favors because there's there's just a glut. And it's probably already happened that it's like, how am I going to even fit this in, right? Yeah, I think there's what's happening. Like there's just a glut of stuff that comes in towards again. And even if it has been programmed, it is true to say like for me at the movie "Crush, I Program" and "How are Long Theumatic Blocks?" So I've already started like, oh, I think I've identified some 20-minute pieces that I want to build a theme around. And if you're coming in with like a 20 plus minute short, you've just raised the bar for yourself. The interesting thing I'd say, I think it's sort of like, it's become like the Academy Awards submitting to festivals. Like, there's sort of like a halfway to two thirds of the way through the submission process is a sweet spot of submitting. The ones at the beginning like can get forgotten. I mean, I don't forget them, but like. Because it's not like you're doing it all along the way. It's like you're watching everything and then making more of a like refined selection. I'm watching all the way, but like I base a lot of things based on how much do they stick in my mind. Like how do you know something that's good? It's like I'm still thinking about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. I know it's not the greatest film ever. I'm still thinking about the bride and it's been weeks now. Have you seen the bride? No, but I've been hearing good things. It's just like it's bold. So, you know, something that sticks, actually really matters. And so if you submit first thing, it's asking a lot. Yeah. And I actually think that's really true with animation, where I see like great animation, pops and stays and Sean peck notes piece. I love that, like tennis oranges. That's just wanting to like watch and like yep, yeah, good. I can still see this. And I'm not trying to say anything negative about animation. It's just like, but their animation can drift away a little faster, particularly if it's less if it's less narrative. Yeah, interesting. It's harder to hold on to. No offense. No offense to anybody. You might get some. Hey, comment. Well, I would love to hear it. I love that. But do you, when it becomes less narrative, then I'm really holding on to the arch. Yeah. And the bars feels high. You know, we talked about assets. titling is really important. A good grabby title is really beneficial and again stay towards the first half of the alphabet. Really? Yeah. Why? I'm biased from the days of physical media but I'm not even biased. I'm scarred. I was working at a large festival. Which all remain nameless but listeners can figure it out. And the the films were stored there on discs and and VHS tapes and just like story. On the bottom shelf. Yeah. I really hate to say this. I know there are films that didn't get seen. I mean I worked my ass off to try to catch up. But there's stuff I saw that didn't get seen. And also even without physical media there is something like a lot of festivals print out these lists and go through and like if you're at the bottom of the list. It's a minor thing but I'm gonna do everything in my power. I know that we talked about this when I visited your class but to me your number one goal to to simplify all of this is that whether it's physical media or not your goal is to get to the top of the pile. The goal is to be seen by the highest level of program where you can be at the best possible time. And in order to do that you have to move to the top of the pile. So a catchy title, a great log line, the right assets knowing the festival, having reached out, having a good filmmaker statement, having written a cover letter, trying to make some connection, knowing why they're good fit, pointing out like oh my friends films screened there two years ago. They said they'd love it and their work is much aligned with my spiritually. But but but all those things are gonna lead your your work to being watched by me at peak time, six p.m. I have a cocktail in hand I'm ready to go and I'm looking forward to watching it. That's your goal. That's in my mind. You do not want to be seen at 2 a.m. So yeah. And again I can tell you that conceptually I am watching everything unbiased and it doesn't matter all things are the same but like that's crazy. Like if I'm tired yeah I'm probably not gonna watch it the same way that I would. Otherwise. I don't like admitting that but it's not an even playing field. Yeah. Something that I say to my students in like thinking about like job applications and you can tell me if you feel like this feels accurate for festivals as well as at sometimes when you're rejected from something just like don't take it personal because you don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Oh absolutely. Yeah. Because like like what you're saying about like they like this festival like they just like there's things that they just did not watch it's like that rejection wasn't because they watched it and hated it. It's like that rejection is that they didn't look at it and it's like then maybe you don't even want to be at a place that is like that anyway. Yeah. Yeah. 100% that way. Like you have no idea what's going on and you know to me screener and programmer responses are things are so impacted by things you could not possibly know. You've got a programmer who's a mother just died and then you know it might be two weeks later but they're still carrying that and like they can't watch your grief film the same like you have no idea. Yeah. And it's that's why I say make peace with rejection because you can't there's so many factors outside of your control and even outside of the control of the people doing the programming. Yeah. You can't know. Yeah. Yeah. I mean if you're constantly rejected you you may want to look at that pattern but being rejected by a larger festival I would not take as any indication of anything. And one of the big issues with larger festivals is you're not necessarily even getting to be seen by the people who really know what the hell they're doing. I have a real strong objection to screeners at festivals, untrained screeners at festivals because I think there's a lot of work again why watch everything is I don't trust people enough to know. That's like somebody who is like kind of like the first line of people who watch and then it goes to hire people, the majority of festivals I know use some sort of screening committee often people who are not particularly well first. They just like movies or they're you know just out of school thought this would be cool and they generally sort of call that and like get responses from two or three people and see if it's worth moving up to the next level. But I have definitely seen things rejected by screeners all the time or go like well they're just wrong. The one advantage of watching 40,000 shorts is like I know what's out there. So you know the thing that the screener thinks is really fresh and exciting is not and the thing that they don't quite get may actually be more innovative and provocative than they they realize. Yeah. Sorry but you're your comp to job applications spot on because yeah nothing's personal. It really isn't. Yeah. When my partner and I talk about this we have one specific person in mind and neither of us can stand this individual. But I said if they submitted a good short I'd still program them. I might hope that they not attend. Yeah. But you might hope that they reject you. But but I would still yeah yeah. It's never it should not be personal. Yeah. And again like anybody's response is more indicative of them than you. Yep. Not that I like love this book but it's the only part of it that I do think about often is the four agreements. And you know the four agreements. I do not. It's like I don't even know what the four agreements are. I just know the first one. But it's I know the one agreement. It's like it's just like it's like a self-help kind of book and it's like this guy just is like there's four thing four agreements that you need to make with yourself. And if you break those four agreements with yourself you're kind of betraying yourself. And one of them is nothing's personal. And it goes so far as to say that like you know if somebody like is like truly like I don't like you. Right. That's not personal. That's them. And that even if somebody comes to you and is like I love you I think you're fabulous. That's not personal. It's very extreme. But it's like it's like kind of like a way of I think keeping you grounded but also protected to just be like everything has some sort of other motive behind it and to not get wrapped up and like what other people think of you or what they think of your work or anything. You know any mean and to just be like almost I guess I guess to just have a like a strong sense of self to be like I know who I am and nothing else can kind of sway you. I really like that. I don't know that I hundred percent I mean it's not it's not actually very human. It's not very human. If everybody you know tells you that they don't like you. Yes. Again I'd start to like it may not be personal for them. Yeah. But I'd start to look at like well maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you're kind of a dick. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. But I always think of the Eleanor Roosevelt quote which is you wouldn't worry so much about what people think of you if you realize how infrequently they do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just I have enough self-loathing. I may have said this in the workshop. I always feel very protected by myself low thing because it's not that I don't care what people think but I don't have a high bar for myself so anything is a win. They didn't hate me. It works for networking too. Yeah. Anything else? Do you think it's worth mentioning? What I'd like to do is offer something to your listeners. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. So anybody listening to us is welcome to submit their shorts to the wall of movie crush. Yes. And use the code India is awesome which is both the truth and a discount code. And I'll get you 75% off and you'll be considered the only parameters is it must be under 30 minutes actually short. Yes. And it must have been completed after January 1st 2025. To last year right? Yeah. Okay. So that's that 18 months. Yes. Yes. And if you want to like hear like I guess case studies about the festival you can listen to previous episodes. The first episode of the podcast with Kristi Kish and then Michael Dundero and Shay Deng. I don't know what episode number it is but we can hear their experiences there. Yeah. Thank you. I'll make this pitch that if you get into the wall of movie crush and know that that your work means a lot to me, and that attending really is worth the trip. I know it's an unknown place beyond loony tunes, but it's a really wonderful little city, but more importantly, I swear you'll have a great time for three days. - Yeah, they all said that it's like there's just so many opportunities to connect with people and to just have fun and yeah. It's all under one roof, all communal activities, all good. (upbeat music) - This podcast is produced, recorded, and edited by me and Diela Barty-Bello, digital marketing assistance by Arnesh Kondu, design by Sway Rapun, music by Cloudmire, special thanks to Warren. I really appreciate him sharing his insights with us and my mom and dad.