Female Rage Gets Shit Done (with Molly Darling)

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And I was like, "Wow, I'm so glad that my kids are know that I'm a lesbian and love that I'm a lesbian." Hello and welcome to It's a lot, a podcast about things that are a lot. On the show we have honest conversations about the highs and lows of social media, parenthood, and more. When it comes to complex topics, online discourse can lack nuance and empathy. That's why we're leaning into deep conversations, making space for conflicting messy feelings and keeping it real about how we feel. We could all use a little more of that sometimes. I'm your host Emily Hesney Lynch and today I'm looking forward to chatting with Molly Darling. Molly is an artist, creativity, doula, writer, and non-binary mama of two, exploring creativity, motherhood, identity, grief, and reinvention. Through her visual art, energy portraits and workshops, she helps people reconnect with imagination and make meaning from the mess of being human. She's also the host of Behind the Studio Door, which is also part of the Lunchdoor family, and it's officially coming back so you all can look forward to that. I'm really excited to talk about all those things and more, so welcome to the show Molly. Yay, thank you so much for having me. It's so funny. I sat in the host's seat accidentally when we first came in. I was like, "Oh, nope, not my show. Emily's show." I'm really excited to talk to you. Thanks for having me. Different ride tonight. Yeah, so I know you've been in a big transition period lately in life, what's been a lot for you recently. This whole summer has been a lot, but a lot of everything, like a lot of change, a lot of grief, a lot of sadness, a lot of joy, a lot of exploration. So basically, my ex and I see who was host of the other podcast. We broke up like earlier in the year, I think around April. So we've just been going through this transition time of like, what does life look like? Totally different. Also, my kids are going into high school and middle school. Also, I moved into a new house, and also I came out as a lesbian. No big deal. Just like everything, a lot, all at once. Yeah, congratulations. I'm sorry. Happy. Woo! There's a massive feeling, probably. Yeah, but all good. It's very life-being-life, you know? Have you, I feel like you've gone through so many evolutions and everything. You're probably a little bit used to like holding those conflicting feelings that have you like struggled with having that much grief and that much joy at the same time, like what's that been like? You know, that's a really good question because it's really interesting. I do feel like I've lived several lifetimes already and I'm not even 40, you know? I'm just like, I have, I've been through a divorce process before. I've been through faith deconstruction. I've been through like all of these big things, you know, like big transitions. And so it feels like thresholds feel like familiar territory to me. So thankfully, I had that going for me because I feel like that would have made this summer. If this was the first time, I think we would be having a very different conversation. But because I have been through so much, I keep on saying like, I'm new to the X, Y, and Z, but I'm not new to life, you know? Like I've been, I've been here the whole time. So I'm just like going through a new layer, but there has been lots of ups and lots of downs. And definitely, I mean, I'm also just a human. So there's moments when I'm like crying on my bathroom floor and there's moments when I'm like, this is the best day ever, you know? It's like the full technical or rainbow spectrum of life. That's awesome. Yeah, as hard as those parts might be. I'm thinking about the threshold image that you just invoked, and I'll probably talk about it more later, but I'm curious like when you get to these thresholds, how do you like go ahead and take the leap and walk through the door instead of just being like stuck in the uncertainty and like fear part of it? That's also a great question. I think it depends on the thresholds. I think when you're crossing into something new, again, like this isn't my first big crossing. So I think I was prepared for the feeling of okay, like because I'm here to grow and to evolve. I'm not here to just like survive and kind of live the same life for however many years I'm here. I'm I'm a very dynamic human. And I also like have no qualms about the fact that life is not going to be the same from like year to year and decade to decade. And I think the more that I've practiced being in the discomfort of that, the better it's not the better it's been, but like the more comfortable I've been with discomfort, even though that sounds like an oxymoron, like I'm able to hold a lot more discomfort. I think this time around and I've learned that like the more you're able to hold like the big grief and stuff, the more you're able to hold the joy to, you know, like show me someone who's been through really insane heartbreak and I'll show you someone who really has a good sense of humor. You know, that's so true. It's with it. Yeah, I feel like intellectually I understand that and think I can do that. And then day to day, I'm like not really nailing it, but like you said, we're all human. Yeah. I want to like rewind in time a little bit to like some of your first thresholds, especially with queer identity, like what was one of the first big revelations when you started to realize that you identified as queer in some way. In some way. I would say if we're talking about like the verb queer, like being strange, I've always felt that way. So even as a kid, I always felt like the black sheep, I always felt like kind of just different than and not able to really like accept the norms, but then at the same time, I was in a very conservative situation where there was no representation whatsoever. Like representation was actually hidden from me of like queer stuff. So I think the first time that I actually really had that thought was in college when I read a book for a women and gender studies class that was called the queer art a failure. And I just was so fascinated by the book itself. It had like a little baby, like a little dead baby part on the cover. And then it was just like that. And I was like, oh, I wonder what that means. It was like the first time that I heard the word and was like, oh, in a non-derogatory way, I guess. So I think that was the first little spark even though I didn't connect to the dots. And then a lot of dots started to connect post pandemic when I had a lot of time, like I think a lot of us did to be on TikTok and on the internet and doing a lot of self-reflection and realizing, oh yeah, like I've always I've always been queer, but like let's just I think I'm also like gender fluid and all of these things. So and weirdly, like coming out as like a non-binary felt safer than coming out fully as a lesbian because it was like, oh, well, that doesn't threaten necessarily like my relationship that I'm in right now. We had a lot of conversations about it at that point. And I think that might have been the actual breakthrough if I hadn't been in the long-term relationship. And our boundaries were just different at that point. And so I was just like, okay, well, I'm this and I'll say that I'm this, but you know, keep it kind of open because so I would say like this threshold has been years, you know, it's almost like the final part of this summer, everything moving into place was just like walking through the final door. But I think, you know, I think the threshold has actually been since like 2022 when I was like, oh yeah, yeah, I'm definitely not just into dudes. And then later it was like, oh, I'm not into dudes at all, okay. And what was the label you used before? Was that pansexual or pan? Yeah. I feel like I switched between labels several times because there was just a lot of like not really knowing. On top of, I think when you have religious trauma to like, they don't take a couple decades to deconstruct that. And then it takes that long to then have eyes to see like, oh, okay, this is what it feels like to actually be in my body because I think that had to come first. I think I had to be able to feel myself first, which I just couldn't for a long time, you know, because it was like a protecting mechanism to keep me out of my body. And once I started feeling like, oh, I feel kind of tense in this situation. And I feel more open in this situation and started paying attention to that. It was like, oh, okay, this is going to change how I operate in general. So how did you learn to feel present and feel your body? Because I feel like that's something I really struggled with. I'm like, I'm just a brain walking around in a, I don't know. Well, honestly, I think ecstatic dance helped a ton. I go to this thing called ecstatic dance every week in the woods. There's a bunch of us we play loud music. And you basically can move your body however you want to. And to be honest, when I first started going in 2019, my little like ex evangelical brain was like, did I just walk into like a sex cult? Like, what the fuck is this? You know, like, this is so weird because I was so used to not being in body that it was strange. So I think that practice of being very intentional of feeling my body and moving around and stuff was something that opened the door. And then I just got more and more curious about it because I was like, uh, feels better to listen to myself. It turns out, you know, what if I just trust myself? What if I trust myself a little deeper? And I think it was just like a process, you know? I love dancing with my toddler when he lets me but lately there's a - There's a lot of- - No, mummy. - Oh yeah, mummies when I start dancing. - He's more cringe now, prepared to be more and more cringe - But he's got great dance moves, so I guess I'll just watch. - Yeah, well you know what kids, I feel like are such good teachers of embodiment because they haven't learned to disembodie themselves. So like however he's wiggling, you should just like, even if he doesn't want to see you wiggling, just like watching from around the corner and just like wiggle, you know? - Even when I'm like singing along with him at home, he's in his frozen era, which I just mentioned in the last episode too. - That's incredible. - But he loves belting, let it go, and I'll like sing along with him. - Yeah. - But then like, when we're around other people and he's singing along, I stop singing along 'cause I feel like embarrassed about my voice and it's like not perfect. And he doesn't care 'cause he's too, and I'm like, man, I just gotta be more like my two year old. He gets it. - Exactly. - Yeah, he hasn't had all the conditioning that I hope he doesn't have to have honestly. - But yeah, exactly. - So going back to like the labels he used over time, I'm curious like, however much you are open to talking about your first marriage, like I kind of was under the impression from at least a distance and from social media that like you came out as pan and that was why you left that marriage, but you're saying like the pan stuff was later on. So was it like religious trauma, like what were the thresholds and things that like, cause that chapter to end? - Yeah, it's really interesting. And it's funny because I, it's funny like thinking about other people's perceptions of it when you're the one who's like walking in. I'm like, oh, that wouldn't have even occurred to me, but I guess that makes sense looking from the outside in. - I'm writing memoir about it and I'm going through the timeline and I'm like, yeah, that actually interesting, cause I'm just queer then. - Yeah, I was. I just, everyone else knew but me apparently. Literally when I fully came out, all the friends that have known me for the longest and the most are like not surprised at all. So it's interesting how you can trick yourself. But I, yeah, my first marriage, I don't mind talking about it all because we co-parent now. It's just been a long enough time that it's like water under the bridge. It was more because of religious differences, honestly, because I went through a faith deconstruction where one of our best friends in the world passed in a really tragic way, like in 2014. And I didn't, I was going through postpartum depression at the same time and like all of these things. And I did not have any box for that in my religious like worldview. There wasn't, it didn't really make sense. So that cracked me open and made me start asking the question, like what if I stopped trusting this like book and these people who are telling me I need to trust people in the pulpit or whatever and I just started trusting myself. And then from starting to trust myself, that's a dangerous thing to start doing. It'll like change your entire life. I started going to therapy. I started recognizing how codependent our marriage was. Like I didn't even know the word codependent. So it was a lot of that stuff first and a lot of like, oh, I don't want to be in this religion anymore and he wants to go deeper. And that's just like, we're just two very different people in that way, you know? So that was really why we broke up. And then the pansexual stuff started happening like not long after where I was just like, oh, yeah. - I always try to do like parenthood as a second half of the show. So like sometimes there's so much that like blends together. It's hard to separate. I'm curious now like how much has that come up in a religious difference as a parent, your kids. - Constantly, yeah. - Oh yeah, it's constant. And it's actually really interesting because now that my kids are a little older, like they're like going into high school and middle school, they have a really healthy view of like life and how people live it compared to mine because like I was raised in the bubble. Like I didn't know that there was, I was told this is the one white right way to live and also white so that was a funny slip in there. Yeah, it was surrounded by like white Christians all the time, you know, until I went to college and I was like, well, you guys have been hiding the world for me, you know? So I didn't want my kids to have that and they don't have that experience. They have the experience of being raised half in a Christian household, which by the way is way cooler about things than the way I was raised, not even by my parents, but like just the churches that I was in. My kids are able to like joke about it. Like my daughter will be like, yeah, I'm like a church girl, you know, like with air quotes. (laughing) And like she loves it and she loves playing music but I think it took me a long time to be okay with them having their own experience of it 'cause for a while I was afraid, like really afraid that it was gonna eff them up like it did for me and that's just not, they're having a different experience. But then also when they come to my house, they're having a very different experience, you know? We like, there's altars everywhere. I'm a practicing witch, I'm queer, they know that. Like so, I don't know, there's just more accepting, I think than a lot of the kids that I see that are really, really sheltered 'cause they've had to just like walk the line. But that's not to say that we don't have like disagreements and have to like figure it out and co-parenting is hard and I don't know. We just figure it out, yeah. - That's really cool that they're so accepting and open 'cause I feel like as much as like I grew up Presbyterian and I had the same kind of like, I love the music, I love the community, like I got positive things out of it and only after I stopped going, I was like, oh, I was just in it for like the music in the community and they're asking about it. - That's where it's at. - Right, the music in the community. - But I feel like people like who are in it don't think Christians are judgy but once you're out of it, it's like Christians are so judgy. - Everyone else and have these like high standards and rules and you know, shouldn't generalize about a group. - They definitely can be. - Yes, it's nice that they aren't all. They can't be. - So your kids have learned to be so accepting and open-minded and. - Well, that's actually something that my kids are teaching me because I have those generations a lot because I also was just like raging mad after all the trauma that I went through because also like my sister was raised in the same situation and she sees it totally differently, like it was a very different experience for her but my kids, when I make jokes and generalize about that, they get upset. They're like, I feel like you're making fun of us, you know? And like that really hit me the first time that that happened where I was like, yeah, I am, that's fucked up. I'm sorry, like I'm not gonna do that anymore. 'Cause I think that our world is just presented to us especially in social media as like very binary and it's not actually that way. Like most people that you talk to all want the similar things and we just all have different ideas of how to get there. Like everyone just wants safety for their family and like, you know, like to be able to live. And yeah, I don't know, most people that I've talked to are generally pretty nice. It's like hard to hate a person close up. - Yeah. - Easy to hate a person online because you're not close to them. I'm learning a lot from my kids. - That's awesome. I find that so refreshingly we were able to just say like, yeah, it's fucked up that I did that. I'm sorry, like, I know people talk a lot online about like we need to apologize to our kids. Our parents never did that. - We need to actually apologize. - But like actually doing it, yeah, yeah, easy. - No, it's not. That's one of those, you know, practicing and discomfort things. I'm like, yep, I was wrong, okay. Let's move on. - Speaking of how people act online, I know this time around with your separation, your ex has been kind of processing a lot of that publicly on social media. What has it been like to navigate all of that, especially when you have so many mutual friends kind of watching things unfold online? - Well, it was really, to be honest, it was really, really frustrating for me initially because I thought that we were gonna have a breakup that looked a certain way and I was happy about that. And it just didn't end up being that way. And obviously humans have emotions and everybody's got a process their own way, cool. But I have very, I think it's become clear to me that we have very different boundaries about those things, very, very different boundaries. So we had a couple of conversations where there were only like two posts that I was like, can you please take that down? 'Cause that's really disrespectful and he did. But I got very quickly to a place where I was like, okay, to protect my peace because I was noticing myself just like perseverating on it and I had just left this relationship so that I could get more of my energy back and I'm still giving my energy to this process. So I was like, okay, like this is not fair to me or to him to do this and to perseverate on this. So I'm just gonna block him on everything and I'm gonna tell everybody that I'm blocking him. I'm not asking anybody to pick sides. If you're still friends, that's totally fine. But don't tell me, 'cause I'm not interested, you know? Like I'm just protecting my own peace and my own kids and our peace and like, but it's been really, it's been a lot, it's been really awkward. In my opinion, there's a lot of other ways to process than like that publicly. So, but I don't, I don't have any control over what anyone does, you know? - Yeah, that sounds like the healthiest thing you could do is to not step away. - Yeah, just if you do you, all right, we're gonna be over here. - And that was like a seven or eight year relationship. - Wow. - Yeah, about seven. - Mm-hmm. - Yeah. - Going back to like the thresholds that we talked about, how like with both this and your past marriage, like you had probably some comfort, stability, like you're used to this relationship, there's gotta be like some love and fondness there still. - Oh yeah. - So how do you live best friends? - Yeah. - So how do you push yourself to like walk away from all of that to be your most authentic self? - I don't think I pushed myself. I think I got to the point after a couple years of processing, 'cause I was feeling irritated for a couple of years, like, and there were things that I was doing, like there was even like one time where I was drinking alcohol, like I was drinking like some shelter or something, and like, Chris Lynchroom was like, are you okay? And I was just like, I'm fine, but I was not fine. 'Cause I'm sober. I was like, don't ask me friend questions. Don't notice what I'm doing. Goddamn it, Chris. - Don't perceive me please. - Don't perceive me. My god, so I think I was just very internally moving through a process for a long time without being able to put words to it of like and Essentially what I realized is I could smell the stench of like the relationship being dead For a long time without being able to name it that because things have life cycles and and for me I'm such a dynamic person that if there's not evolution happening I start to feel really like trapped. So honestly I think that I got to a point where and I was trying to figure out if it was me too because also if you're in a long-term relationship There's highs and lows like it's not gonna feel good all the time Like you're gonna have to have hard conversations and we definitely did a lot But it was kind of more than that and I think for me I was realizing that My intuition was very strongly leading me in a direction and I don't know about anybody else But for me when my intuition gets to us to a certain threshold point I can't not do it like otherwise I'm going to get sick is what I have learned in my life So the last time before I broke up with my first husband I tried so hard not to for so many years that it made me suicidal So like that was the moment in that relationship where I was just like oh, it's either me live or Me try to make this thing happen that's not supposed to be happening anymore and me die You know and so with this one it wasn't that extreme because I could feel the feeling and I had felt that feeling before So I was like, oh, okay, it's like I can fight this and cause myself a lot more suffering Or I can just be honest about what's going on and when I was honest our boundaries were very clearly different And so it was just like okay, that sucks It's but I think I wasn't honest for such a long time because I was afraid of losing the relationship So again, the threshold was like years long. I think when I first came out as queer earlier in our relationship I think that's when it started But I didn't realize that until like recently like oh, that's when it started to die when I kind of switched from loving to choose that to Fearing to lose that you know, and it's a very different internal feeling. It's like bracing versus Receiving life. So I just couldn't not I was like, no, I can't Does that make sense? It does it sounds like such a gift to like have that intuition and to be able to listen to it I think a lot of people we probably all have intuition But a lot of us probably just push it down down and ignore it as much as we can Everyone does everyone does I think I just had the gift of the gift of suicidality Honestly, seriously because it got it had to get to that point for me to finally choose listening to myself And then knowing that it can get to that point is like oh, okay, yeah This is way more important than any other voice in my life This is like my internal compass and no one else's so yeah, it's extreme But I think that's literally what brought me to that point of yep, if I don't listen to myself bad things happen Can you talk a little bit about like how you use art to process life and yeah, how that works? It's everything Art is my life processing like art has always been my therapy I think I've said it in other podcast episodes before but like I would still make art even if people weren't buying Where like it's kind of like a nice happy accident that I have an art business, you know I love that other people resonate with my work But I would make it anyway because it's such a therapeutic process And I don't know if you've ever heard of like Howard Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences It's but it's been mostly just proven at this point But it was something that I learned about in college was basically like all these different kinds of ways of seeing the world and one of them is like Visual spatial and one of them is like body kinesthetic It's like ways of learning and I always thought that I was very visual and then I realized it was actually a body kinesthetic It's less about like what the piece actually looks like and more about what it feels like for me to make it Because it's somatic. It's like me moving my body I like painting because it's very physical and I really like live painting with music because it's very like My whole body is experiencing it and now that I know that emotions are also psychosomatic and everything's connected in the body It's like moving things through in a very healthy way for me is Painting as opposed to you know like getting drunk which is why I'm sober You know because you got to move the emotions through somehow. So for me, it's like painting and playing and exploring So that's awesome and it's almost like the the physical pieces are like they're like an artifact of that process It's like oh, yeah, this physical piece came as a result of this process that I was having with myself. That's really cool Yeah, thanks. So you went from like the darling rage to darling revolution and then reclaimed rage Yeah kind of recently can you talk about like the rage name and like the meaning behind it and all that yeah It is really funny that I went back to darling rage. So Like how do I make this a short-ish story all of these thresholds are years long So the darling rage was a name that I chose when I was first deconstructing really and I really liked the juxtaposition of darling and rage together Because to me it spoke to like you are beautiful and loved at every point in the process Including when you're like reggae and grimy and messy and like not sure So it like really spoke to that and then I changed it for a while to darling revolution Because I was going through business coaching and I was trying to figure out my bigger why and my value set and all these things And I wanted it to be more of like a movement So it's like that's where like the revolution thing came from and then recently I came back to it because I'm like It just feels so much more right to me Darling revolution felt like a branding thing for a long time and I'm glad that I did it because you know I've been at this business thing for a decade and like you have to throw a lot of spaghetti against a wall and like Try it out and that was one of those things I was like no, I think we need to go back to darling rage because it just has always felt really right And that's my stickiness too Yeah, I've always called you that in my head instead of revolution Yeah, yeah, it has more stickiness. It sounds just better and it has more punch to it I think like visceral It's like and the rage thing I think is really important for women to embrace also So like that's kind of part of it too because in my work as a coach is an imagination doula Like if you're birthing something you know if you're birthing something out of your body you need Some anger in there like or some you know that kind of intensity to get the thing through And I think a lot of times like women and Femmes are Given the conditioning that we're not allowed to or it's like not polite for us to feel rage and such bullshit Because it's one of the most powerful things in the world like female rage gets shit done. Yeah, that is so true You know it births babies Etc. So that's the what is it TLDR too long didn't read yeah So I know right now you have a day job. You've sometimes been full-time with your art in the past Can you talk about like the economics of having an art business and like What goes into it? Yeah, it's actually really interesting because Another transition that I'm playing with right now is I'm I'm continuing to be at my day job But it's probably gonna look a little bit different because I'm my art business is starting to gain momentum again I think the biggest thing with having a business especially like a creative business is that you have to be okay with it Not looking a certain way and you have to be okay with cross pollinating and like Having a diverse ecology of income streams, you know, like I like to think of it as a garden And some things like if I have a brand new offer I don't think of it as like like if you have a brand new baby You're not gonna ask it to go out and put on a tie and like earn all your income You know like it's a baby. It's a toddler. It needs some time to like grow So it wouldn't be it wouldn't be kind or wise of me to like put all of my eggs in this one basket when It's evolving. I think what happened was the last Three-ish years that I haven't been full-time It's because a lot of my Creative energy was going into this internal threshold process and I needed more stability externally So I was like, you know, this is perfect. I'll just a go where work in HR And it's been really fun actually And I think that it lends itself to also cross pollinating because I'm inspired by living life too Yeah, so sometimes when you take some space from the creative practice It allows it to grow a little bit more and then and I found that like coming back to him like okay The momentum is back like yeah, and I don't even mean inspiration I mean like momentum of some of these things that I'm bringing so To answer your question it has to be dynamic at least for me like Because sometimes things sell really well in a certain season and sometimes that's not what's needed I think it's easy for people to see other artists on Instagram with like huge followings Me like oh, they just sell so many prints or they're like an amazing mirror list doing all this work around the world But like they don't see all the work behind the scenes that went into that They don't know they might not actually be making that much money like you know idea y'all I just need you to let I'm gonna hold your hands when I say this I know so many people with big followings who don't make money off of it So just please See someone even with like a hundred thousand followers doesn't necessarily mean that they're making full-time money off of it Just yeah, it's like it's such a smoke screen sometimes if you don't know that people are just we're just on Instagram Instagram show and the good stuff and I know a lot of people actually who are very Financially successful artists who have less than a thousand followers, right? So and it can be both ways also Well, I want to switch gears to Motherhood soon, but just one more question on art. Can you talk about, like, what's next or anything exciting on the horizon with your art? It sounds like there might be some good stuff coming up. Hmm, there's lots of good stuff coming up. I have really been enjoying the heck out of making these energy portraits lately, because it combines my intuitive, like, esoteric channeling skills with making art. So that's been really fun. I basically, like, people have been coming to me with all kinds of things, but it's mostly, like, the question I ask is, what's alive for you? I have someone send me a voice note of that, and then I listen to it, I feel the energy, I pull cards, and then whatever comes through the messages becomes this energy portrait. And it's really cool, because they're, like, magical artifacts in and of themselves, like, people have been having them on their phone lock screens, interacting with them every day, and noticing that it's, like, creating this, like, relationship with themselves through the art, which is my favorite thing about art. So the energy portraits are fun, because it's, like, these little portals that people can be self-reflect, like, be with themselves. I've been loving seeing the ones you're posting, and I still love the one you did for me, like, years and years ago. Yeah, you got the, you got the first version of that when I was doing, like, physical ones, which might come back, but I've, I've been having so much fun with digital collage, though. Yeah, the gorgeous. Yeah, thank you. All right, well, let's take a quick break, and then we'll talk some more about motherhood after. That was good. Hello, hello, folks. My name is Magnus. I am a host of the Mind of Magnus. It's a podcast where I focus on expanding my brain, and bringing some awesome people along the way to help expand your brain. So I have some new seasons, and some awesome new guests coming up this year. So join me, send me some factoids if you have your own. I even have a call in line. So check it out, find me at mindofmagnus.com, wherever you're launching to a podcast network, which is everywhere. Are you ready for a podcast that's real and empowering? Getting a role with Boston brings bold, honest conversations with business owners who are building big dreams and doing it their way. No fluff, just truth, energy, and inspiration. Hit play and get lifted. So I want to hear some more about your motherhood journey, Molly. How old are your kids? You said going into middle school and high school? My oldest, my daughter is 14, and my son is going to be 11 in a couple weeks. So that's freaking me out. Yeah, what kind of stuff are they into these days? So much stuff. They're so cool. There's so much cooler than I was at that age too, which is fun to see because I feel like that's how it should be. Let's see. My daughter is in varsity swim. So she's really good at it because she's a freshman. She's in varsity. So she's been doing two a day practices and coming home and being like, "Mom, look at my muscles." I'm like, "Yes, this is so exciting for you." But she also really likes music. She's teaching herself ukulele. She's teaching herself piano. She's on like worship team at church and she loves like playing. She's got a band that she has started with her friends. I don't know how that's going, but it's like, it's at least an idea that's out there. And then my son is so creative. He just will like fabricate things out of nothing all day long. Like last night, he was like, "I need a big box because I need to make this like cat gamer hotel for my friends kittens." And I was like, "Okay." And I go back up to his room an hour later and he's like crafted and constructed and painted this whole thing. He wants to be a director, a chef, and a car mechanic when he grows up. And I'm absolutely sure he's going to do all of those. Amazing. And he's also playing like football. And they're both very active, which I love for them. So, and they're excited about school because they're wild extroverts like I am. So one less thing to worry about. So what are you love doing with them lately? My gosh, we're so nerdy together. It's actually really funny. We were just at the mall today and my daughter picked out a pair of socks for me that she was like, "Mom, these are socks exactly made for you." And you know what they said on them. They said, "Easily distracted by boobies." And I was like, "Wow, I'm so glad that my kids are know that I'm a lesbian and love that I'm a lesbian." Yeah, the more you know. But we really like playing video games. We like, we really like movies and shows. We're really big like comic book fans as a whole family. So we're like into Marvel. They're old enough now to watch some of the Marvel stuff that they weren't able to watch when they were littler. So we do that. We love being outside. We really like going to the skate park. We just really like hanging out. And a lot of times when it's just the three of us, like, they're so funny. They'll just like put costumes on and make a show for me basically. Yeah, I have so many videos. We just like hanging out and we like music a lot. So we're all a huge 21 pilots household and we're going, I'm taking them to see 21 pilots. And Ohio stadium next month. And they're we're so thrilled. So that's going to be a fun. I think there's going to be more travel in our future. Very cool. What's the custody split with your ex-husband? It's not as 50/50 as I would like it to be. That is something we're also talking about. I have them as much as I can have them. So it's 50/50 when they're not in school. Gotcha. And when they're in school, they're at HFL, which is Lyma's where they live with their dad and stepmom. But it's been such a good school for them that it's like, you know, why? But they're with me most weekends. So it sounds like really fun ages 10-14. They're so much fun. And they like don't need me to like take care of them, which is still weird to me. Yeah. Like, this is not normal for an 11-year-olds. And I know this, but he has learned how to make omelets this summer. Like veggie omelets. Like he's like onion, onion, and I need two pet person. Like he chops them all up and he he will not let me make his omelet because he does it better. They're in like the independent phase where they're just doing their thing and talks to her friends all the time and she's in friend mode and I don't know, we're just we're just all kind of like bopping around in the house together doing her own thing, which is fun. But it's very different than like the toddler phase where everyone needs to be chased around to make sure that they stay alive. And I know you're in that phase. Yeah, it's like hard to imagine him being more independent someday. Yeah, it gets easier. Yeah. What are some of the hard parts now? I think some of the hardest parts now are just like the differences in co-parenting because we have very just very different approaches. And so like is a teenager, for example, like the other set of parents have a very different viewpoint of how she acts as a 14 year old and like that she's a jerk and stuff. And I'm just like, do you guys remember being 14? Right. We were all assholes at 14. That's pretty developmentally appropriate for her to be an asshole. But I don't even agree that she is one. I think she's I think she just has an opinion. And in cultures that are a little more conservative, that's not always ex well received. So those are that kind of the hard parts is like figuring out mostly like not being able to be there for them 24/7. But being able to like counsel them as much as I can when I'm not there to like this is how you like move through hard feelings. Yeah. Talk to you through it. This is how you can you know shake it out. And it's yeah, it's hard not being there all the time. But that's always been true. So you've been a mom for 14 years now. Yeah. How have you changed over those 14 years as a mom? So much. My cell 14 years ago would be absolutely blown away with who I am now. But I also feel like me now is is the being that was like pulling her forward at the same time. So I have that kind of like weird time dynamic with it. So different. I mean, when I had them, I was I was in the church super closet worship leader very repressed like a totally like a totally different person. And I think motherhood was one of the things that really like broke me open. As it does. Yeah. Because suddenly I don't know life is happening. And you don't know yourself anymore like your body is totally different. And you're like, how do I relate to this? And I think the biggest change for me with motherhood has come from going through the phases of like, okay, this is what motherhood is supposed to look supposed to look like should look like. And years and years and years of trying to do that and hating that because that's not me at all. And then finally realizing, okay, that sucks. I don't want to do it that way. Let me do it this way. And now I feel like I'm a mother and also completely me at the same time. And that's really fun. And it's really magical because it like helps the kids unlock who they are fully to because they're seeing a mom who's not like sacrificing herself for them. Because I know we're given messaging a lot that that's the most important thing, but actually the most important thing for kids is to see a mother who's healthy and chooses herself. So having boundaries with them, they've learned where it's just cool because now that they're old enough, there will be times when I'll be really tired. And like my son most like, he's a little Libra sweetie. He'll be like, mommy seem kind of off. Do you need some quiet time? Do you need some alone time? And I'm like, yeah, you're right. I do. And he's like, okay, well, go upstairs to your room. See it in an hour. You know, like it's really sweet. So they're learning from my modeling, which is then reverberating back to me from them, kind of like modeling that back, which is really cool. So I guess all that to say, yeah, we've just all grown up together. Yeah. What are some examples of like the ways you started being more yourself for like, did your parenting style change in specific ways or because I was so just like repressed for such a long time, so repressed, so conditioned, so like small in the way that I like lived in the world because I learned to be as a survival strategy. I just was really like fear based in all of my, I don't know. I just like, I was just nervous about everything, which made me really avoid it. So, I would just. avoid things or not like avoid my children but just have a hard time like facing the parenting realities of it all you know just being like I'm just gonna do whatever we can to like pass the time quickly for example especially when they were littler and when I didn't really have a lot of help and it was just me and it's like really overstimulating yeah absolutely it's a lot I think I gave up a lot more and a lot more easily and now I'm just like oh like we're all just doing this messy life thing together it doesn't have to look perfect because perfectionism was also a thing that I had to deconstruct to I'm not a perfectionist anymore not at all I love quality and I love good boundaries but I don't care I'm like you do you the way that makes sense for you so I think the more that I've learned to trust myself the more that that's been the most important value to instill in my children is like helping them learn to trust themselves because I wouldn't talk that like I had to like stumble through it over like decades of like fucking up and finding out yeah it's so hard with how much advice is on Instagram not like even 10 years ago in your kids or when others probably so much less yeah like I think I'm doing a good job with my son and I'm not making him not trust himself but then sometimes I'm like oh I'm like saying no a lot or like stop that or knock it off if he's like doing something unsafe or like and I'm like do I need to be listening to all these Instagram posts that are like phrase this this specific way so that they don't get damaged for life you know gentle parenting doesn't work yeah it's like finding the right middle ground and yeah andri is the assertiveness like yeah also encouraging them to blossom and be themselves and yeah I think well you were saying that and I had another realization and like I think part of my growth was also releasing the fact that I have fucked up I will fuck up I'm going to fuck up like and not like trying to pretend that I won't you know like they're going to be things probably that the kids will have to unpack about their mom because we all have to do that but I think that's made me less tense about doing a good job you know I'm like okay this can apologize and just do better next time but it's really hard there's like there's so much noise online and it's like yeah the gentle parenting thing I think like emotional literacy is important but our kids also really need to know that we've got it with the boundaries like the kids should not be leading yeah with the boundaries and that actually makes them feel safer and I have the data to prove it because it's been working with my kids so I want to go back to what you were saying about like being fear based for such a long time how did you unlearn that like fearful mindset that was so ingrained again I think it was like a matter of life and death for me but it continues to be like it's life is a spiral and it's like we go through these layers and you're like oh I thought I learned this lesson already but we're learning it from a new perspective and it's funny because you get to a certain point and you're like okay I've learned all the lessons and but obviously there's more lessons I think I thought I was completely free of like the fear based stuff when I left my first marriage I was like yes I've done it I left the church I left this guy it's fine everything's gonna be fine now and then I realized that like fundamentalism can show up in most places not just church and so I had to like deal with that and be like oh okay it just is true that fear is just part of it and I could either like demonize it I think it's more that I've like accepted fear is just being part of the tea party of emotions that happen it's just like it happens I think reading a lot of Liz Gilbert helped because she talks about fear in her book big magic and she talks about how if you really listen to fear long enough and deep enough you realize that it just says the same thing over and over again and that's stop it's like stop stop stop stop stop and that's just kind of a boring record to follow as like your life you know like GPS system so I don't think that happened in just one moment for me I think it happened over like lots of layers and continue to right because like I still am afraid of shit like the more I expand it's just that the the things I'm afraid of just change but there's still things I'm afraid of but the conversation that I have with fear now is hey I understand why you're here you think that the x y and z is going to happen again it's not we're in a different space but that makes sense and also you don't get to be in the driver's seat like me and creativity are in the driver's seat and you can be back here with the juice box like you can be along for the ride but you don't get to be in the driver's seat that's so interesting the fear is telling you to stop like I have never thought of it that way really I'm gonna definitely think about that some more after this conversation yeah it's the bracing it's like that somethings up like and then avoiding the thing wow how is rage come up for you as a mom like going back to the darling rage name I know there's like discourse about mom rage and how much more common it is than people think uh-huh yeah that's why like you know the trial that has been going on and everything has been really interesting because it's like wow nobody understands what it's like to be a mother at all it seems that's the Lindsay clancy trial for folks who are listening to this at a way later date yes yes I couldn't thank you I couldn't remember the name but yeah because it's not just postpartum depression first of all isn't just depression it's like it showed up for me as a lot of rage like it showed up for me as like having scary thoughts about myself and my kids and being like is this normal for me to want to throw my baby out of window you know like because but it but it turns out it is like that's just something if you deal with postpartum depression or like mother is it like motherhood psychosis or something you know what I mean as part of postpartum psychosis yeah those things are just are things that happen but also when you're through like the baby stage and your kids are older there's other things to be enraged about and most of those things are the world around them for me most of those things are things that I'm like I hate that you fucking have to deal with this like you shouldn't have to deal with this I hate that but I try to transmute that rage into like okay what can I actually do about this versus like just being angry because another thing that I think has helped is that any emotion like a pure emotion of feeling only actually lasts in your body for about 90 seconds and everything after that is a story that we tell about that emotion so like noticing that has been really helpful like oh what story am I making about this and letting myself feeling the rage rage also comes up around co-parenting a lot with me obviously because it's like we have very different approaches and sometimes other approaches that I don't think are correct to make me very raging so I just have to I have to deal with that you're dropping like so many gems of insight tonight that I'm like like the I know the feelings being a story that you like repeat I think I'd heard that 90 second thing before but I'm thinking about like what I learned from my mom growing up she definitely would like retell the same stories the same emotions and like get people on her side and like always be the victim and like this happened to me and it's so unfair and blah blah blah you know I know I tend to do that sometimes they're like I feel angry or frustrated or irritated a lot of the time and then I'm like telling other people about that to get validation and then getting stuck in a cycle of just being constantly like grumpy and annoyed to be right not helpful yeah it's like and like pardon the metaphor but it kind of becomes like eating your own shit it's like let me just keep on putting this in my mouth like and it just and that's not to say like feeling those emotions is a negative thing I think it's just perseverating on them and the victim mindset can be a slippery slope but when people are in that as as a person who has been in victim mindset for parts of my life it does give you something it gives you like a sense of superiority like it gives you a sense of like I've been wronged and so everyone should validate me and look you know like it still gives you something so I have a lot of compassion for that but it's also been really mind blowing to understand what all that is and rather than judging it and other people like realizing oh that is all in me too and like I at any given moment have the ability to go into those things again so it's like a constant noticing and renegotiation this is why like I journal every day and I make art is so that I can process and notice those things when they come up because they don't go away like I love I love being a victim sometimes because it's like oh everyone will feel bad for me and that will get me attention you know like it's just a very human thing to do but I think motherhood has been one of those things that's helped me notice that so that I can say it for myself but also for my kids be like okay so you're having this feeling how's it actually feeling in your body right now okay that sounds like anger cool like that makes sense someone stepped over your boundaries which is what rage is by the way it's like someone crossed a boundary and so the reason is very valid but like now what are we doing with that energy are we just like siphoning it through or what's happening you know and I'm an artist and so I'm like we should be using materials for creating something new including emotions like like we shouldn't just like keep some stuck in here like let them out yeah you know like I think I let them out through venting with someone and then I I'm like it's so valid right like my frustration is valid or like if Tim tries to give me like a silver lining to something I'm like no I know but it's still frustrating I'm like I want the validation but then I need to like do something more and I like your idea about like pouring it into something creative or like using the energy for something else instead of getting stuck yeah and the creative thing could literally even just be like writing a bunch of swear words on a canvas which is what I did for years by the way like I might have talked about this before but there's a lot of paintings that are out there in the world that if and when art historians look underneath the layers, a lot of them will say, "Fuck you, Harold." And it's not my friend Harold, who's part of the Velvet News, by the way. It's just my inner critic. And I use that as a way to process for a long time, but all these art historians are gonna be like, "Who is Harold, and why is she so mad?" And it was just that I was processing rage before I processed whatever else needed to come out. (laughing) So just write a bunch of fuck use on a paper, and it will help. (laughing) You mentioned before that we'll all have to go to therapy someday, kids will have to go to therapy. What do you hope or think your kids will say about you in therapy when they're older? (laughing) Oh my God, what do I hope they'll say? They've already both been in therapy, which is so I know that things have been said already about how it's challenging that their mom and dad aren't together. So I think that that's gonna be something. But I kind of hope that they'll talk about me from the standpoint of like, "Oh my gosh, my mom liberated herself." This is like my fever dream of what they'll say. She liberated herself, and then she liberated us, and like it was so inspiring. And this is why we're so creative, is 'cause our mom is so creative. Very self-serving kind of story. But honestly, all I want for them to be able to say is that their mom was able to apologize and repair when things get broken, 'cause they just do, and listen to them. Like, which is the feedback I'm getting from them right now, and I hope it continues. Like, I listen to them. I try not, and sometimes really hard to not interrupt and be like, "Yeah, but that's not correct." And it's like, no, they're trying to connect with me by telling me their perspective on something, you know? Especially when your kid gets to be a teenager, it's like the difference between having a dog and a cat. Like, you know, dogs are like really excited. That's like little kids. They're like excited to hang out with you and cats. You cannot directly approach, like teenagers or cats. Like, you just can't have to be like, so you wanna have dinner and maybe talk about something, you know, like tell me about the things you're interested in. So, I hope that they feel hard when they're with me. It's my biggest desire. - It sounds like you're doing a really good job of that. - Thanks, I'm trying. (laughing) - Did you ever, you mentioned like, their parents aren't together, they talk about that. Like, did you ever think like, oh, I should stay together for the kids in either of your relationships? Or was that not really on your mind as much? - Yes. - I think with their dad, that's what took me so long. 'Cause again, it was like a year's long process of kind of knowing that I was feeling uncomfortable, kind of from the beginning, honestly, though, because like, we got married, I was really young. I was like 21. So, it was more just like the individuation process of getting to know myself and be like, oh, why the fuck did I get married? It's what, that's crazy. (laughing) There was definitely moments, but that was happening in tandem with me being like, yeah, but what if I trusted myself, though? And this doesn't feel good. And I think the moment for me that changed it with their dad was, I noticed (blows kiss) doing something that I was doing a lot, which was like making myself physically small. Like, I would just like do this without realizing it. And she was like five and I saw her do that. And I was like, how no? No, I'm not gonna teach her this. Like, I refuse. So, it became that like, okay, I'm gonna leave and no one's gonna understand and I'm gonna become the villain in everyone's story, but they'll still have their mom. Or I try to push through and I don't survive another week. And that's what happened. Like, I left the church and most people didn't understand and most people villainized me. And that also gave me a very thick skin. So like, not a lot of stuff can just scare me at this point. Like, I've been excommunicated. Like, what can you do to me? I don't know. - You've got your villain origin story. - Yeah, the first time. (laughs) - Just to wrap up, I'm curious, like with being an imagination doula as well, if any listeners wanna tap into their own creativity and more of what advice would you give them? - Oh my gosh. Well, I would start with just like, taking time to be with yourself, which I know can be really hard in our day and age of like a tiny TV on like at your fingertips all the time. But just like take some time to be quiet with yourself and just like maybe even put on some music and just like do some doodling and just see what comes out. I teach this class called Ugly Art and it's really, really cool to give people a space to like literally listen to music, let yourself feel whatever feelings and like scribble, fuck shit up. And also don't try to make something pretty. Just like, just like word vomit or color vomit or whatever on a page and just see what happens and then go from there, find something interesting that happened on that page and then let that be the breadcrumb for like the next thing. Suddenly you're in a new life experience. (laughs) I love that, that sounds like a great exercise. And if you want support in that process, I am the imagination doula and I help people birth things, projects, sometimes new lives, new identities. Like if you're moving through divorce or a thresholds, like it's a perfect time for an imagination doula because I'm basically there to like hold your face and be like it hurts, but it's gonna be okay. And now's the time to push. Meaning, draw, paint, whatever you're doing. And it's really transformative work. I love that I've landed on this work because all the people that I've worked with so far, I just love seeing people get to a place where they have that spark where they're like, oh my god, no, like I can trust myself. I like cry every time. Like this is exactly, this is exactly it 'cause I want it to be so that you don't need me and you can like yourself is your own guide, you know? So hit me up y'all. I'm the darling rage on all the places. (laughs) And we'll link to that in the show notes too. Thank you Molly, so much for joining me. This was great. - Absolutely, thanks for having me, it's so fun. (upbeat music) - This has been a presentation of the Lunch or Podcast Network. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)