‘Fellowship of the Ring’ Revisited Episode 2: Bilbo’s Birthday With Bryan Cogman | Fellowship of the Pod

(clock ticking) Hello, welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. It's another Shire Sunday. We're here with episode two of a Fellowship of the Ring Rewatch Project. As always by my side, it's Mallory Rubin. Ho, Joanna my old friend. This will be a pod to remember. We also have invited to the party, Bilbo's birthday party today. Brian Cogman, our pal. And you will get to hear plenty from all of us right after this. (dramatic music) All right, so this is episode two, just at the top here, and we'll say it again at the end of the episode, but next Shire Sunday, episode three, here's what we're talking about, next Sunday. Chapter three, three as company. Chapter four, a shortcut to mushrooms. Chapter five, a conspiracy unmasked. And it's from about 44 minutes in the extended edition from when Sam and Frodo are going off on their own. There's a scarecrow, next step I take, et cetera, et cetera. Through the Buckelberry Ferry incident. So that is next time on. - Yes. - This week, we're doing Bilbo's birthday party. - That's right. We're going from the 15-10-ish minute mark to 43-48. I mean, this is a solid chunk compared to what some of the runtime's just the future extended edition movie chats will be. And we have two just all time book chapters to talk about today. - There's so much going on. - Yes. - We also had a really cool vision quest episode this week. You might have noticed, we had a cool guest. All the pod, false on social, at House of R. There's a lot of social stuff going on with us right now. Watch us on YouTube, watch us on Spotify. We don't want to watch us multiple times on any of those platforms. We wouldn't say no. Just turn us on while you're doing your chores on Sunday. Why not? Who's to say no? Anything else? Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. We've been-- - And box is open. - Yeah, we've been upcoming movie mailback episode. You guys have already been sending a ton of emails to us. Thank you so much. I'm saving them all for Tom Bombadilla episode because we will also do a little mailback along with that. So thank you so much. - It's delightful. - Should we go now to the book recap? Let's do it. (upbeat music) - All right, so the chapters we're covering today, chapter one, a long-expected party, chapter two, Shadow of the Past. - Banger. - Killers. - Banger. - Killers, both of them. Here's what happens. In which? Bilbo throws his 11th-everst birthday, which is also Frodo's 33rd birthday. - That's right. - Massive party. - He has a lot of physical fireworks, a ton of Hobbit names, a fun and kind of mean speech. And then as many of us wish we could, he disappears from the party, don't you wish you could. - I mean, I prefer to not go in the first place, but when I have to go, yeah. I like to be able to just (kiss) out. - Bilbo's off on BK, he's going on a long holiday. So leave him the shire. Get an office-like cool story, enjoy your trip, but that ring though? That stays with me. What do you think? For Lexi Lee Crouch, the starting line. Bilbo leaves the ring behind. He does. Frodo becomes a master of bag ends, right? And has to literally kick people out who are foraging for treasure in the basement. Question mark? - Just an echo behind the wall. You have to check it out. - You have to check out. - You have to know for sure if there's anything hidden gold. - There might be treasure. - And then 17 years later. - Estonishing stuff. - Trouble comes 17 years after Bilbo's birthday party. Trouble comes calling. Meanwhile, the isolationists and the shire are busy ignoring the buzz of danger brewing in Middle Earth. The shire ice is busier than ever. Gandalf's back. After tossing a trinket in the fire, Gandalf has bad news for Frodo. It's the one ring, uh oh. - Tough. - That's a bummer. Have you heard of it? - Gandalf then re-enacts the Moria scene from Fellowship of the Ring. - You see that movie? It's a good movie. - Give this all a pre-cap of the upcoming hunt for Gollum movie. - Yeah. - And as well as the smegel-deagle gold open from Return of the King. - That's right. - So he's just bouncing across the cinematic history here. - That's right. - Or I Gandalf. - Frodo says he's gonna leave home eventually. - You know, he'll get there. - Does he, by the end of chapter two? - No. - But eventually he'll get there. - Did I miss anything? - So real estate matters to consider for him before he can hit the road. - Yeah. - You know, I mean, takes time. - Sam's been dropping leaves. - Classic Sam. - Honestly. - Classic Sam. - That's all I got. - Incredible. - Incredible stuff. We're gonna go straight. I mean, this is gonna be a lengthy episode no matter what. So we're just gonna dive straight into our superlatives. - I'm excited. (dramatic music) - By the way, thank you to everyone who is like commented or emailed or whatever that you really enjoyed the first episode. Thank you of course to Kamil and Johnny for joining us for that episode. It was fantastic. Brian is also an incredible guest on this episode. We already recorded that section. - So light. - His impressions are one for the books. But we're just really excited to do this project and really excited to hear from all of you that you're excited to. - The only hard part is gonna be stopping. And having the discipline to wait 17 years, a half a year. - Well. - Three quarters of a year until we do two towers. - Who says we have to start as late as we did this year? - I know. - We always start in there. - I mean, we could definitely start in like summer, summer, spring, winter. - Winter. - Why stop it all? - Just keep going through January. - A year and two towers, we says no. Okay. I would do it. - Our first category. - Yes. - And this is our book reader section. If you're just here for the movie readers, I mean, movie section. Just get right down there. There will be a time stamp for you in the notes. - But we'd love for you to stay. - This is gonna be good. The Justice for Glorfindell. Glorfindell is a character from the book who's not in the movies. It's Justice for Glorfindell award for book detail. We miss in the movies. So something that we read and the chapters of the book that we were like, damn. I really wish that had been in the movie. Peter Jackson had had time. These are perfect movies. We love them. But what if this had also been there? Not everyone you got. It's a little thing. But every time I'm reminded of this in the book, I'm just delighted by it. And it's the fact that Bilbo and Frodo share a birthday. September 22nd. And so it's not just that they share a birthday which kind of lightens the sense of their parallel existence, right? Which I just love to be. - Yeah. They throw parties together. They throw joint parties. Then Frodo keeps throwing parties in Bilbo's honor even after Bilbo leaves. - That can't happen. - That can't happen. - Yeah, it is. What do you say? It's for Bilbo. - Obviously you can't. There's no room in the movie for that second. Part of it because as 17 years. - As noted. He's got 17 years of parties to throw in the book. And in the movies, like I got to pack up right now, that loaf of bread looks delicious. Let's wrap it up. But just the fact that they share a birthday is like it's a delightful little touch that I love. So I'm always sad that I mean, how hard would it be in these, again, perfect movies that we adore to just have a line or two that's like, you know Frodo, I know we normally do this together. This one's really going to be about me. 111. It's really going to be just about me. - You know how George Lucas made those terrible specialized additions of Star Wars? If they want to, they shouldn't. But if they want to make specialized additions and like just redo the cave troll or whatever, the banner for Bilbo's birthday could just say like Anne Frodo. - Little astros. - Little carrot for him. - A little carrot for him. - Yeah. - All right, my pick is the hunt for gollum. - Yeah, oh yeah. - Coming to your local multiplex in 2027 perhaps. They're currently filming. I feel unsure that they're going to make the 2027 deadline, but that is the current plan. I am also intrigued and apprehensive. We'll talk to Brian about it a bit more. But in the film, this is what Gandalf says. There's one other who knew that Bilbo had the ring. I looked everywhere for the creature Gollum, but the enemy found him first. That's all he says. - Yep. - He says a much more in the book. He basically details the entire plot. I didn't write all of it down, but I wrote some of it down. - Yeah, so here's your choice passages. - Here's what we can look forward to when the hunt for gollum coming to your local multiplex in 2027 or probably 2028. Okay. The Wood Elves tracked him first. An easy task for them for his trail was still fresh then through Merckwood and back again. It led them though they never caught him. The wood was full of the rumor of him. Dreadful tails, even among these simbards. The woodsman said there was some new terror abroad, a ghost that drank blood, were you thinking about a coral? - Yeah, yeah, sure, 100%. It climbed trees to find nests. It crept into holes to find the young. It slips through windows to find cradles. Yikes, tough. Elvesies, this is Gandalf talking. And my search would have been in vain, but for the help that I had from a friend. Aragorn, heavy item and lots. Aragorn, the greatest traveler and huntsman of this age of the world. - I mean, God, put it on your business card if you can. - Sheesh. - Listen. - Gandalf, hype man. - Wonderful. - I know. - Truly wonderful hype man. - How do you think Jamie Dornin feels stepping into the Vigo Mortensen shoes as Aragorn? - I assume he's focused more on the incredibly sexy greasy wig than the shoes, but it's all connected. - The greatest traveler and huntsman of this age of the world, Jamie Dornin. All right, the wood was full of the rumor of how much you read, it's just that line is incredible. What, that right there? You're kind of like, okay, let's do it. I have a couple more things to do. - Let's make a movie. I thought I'm almost done. My friend returned out of the great perils bringing the miserable creature with him. I may have started with guesses about Gollum, but I'm not guessing now. I know. I have seen him. And this is actually from earlier, but I just put it chronologically here. In the end, I had to be harsh. I put the fear of fire on him and rung the truth out of him. - Biff. - So there's going to be some torment from the good guys on Gollum. So yeah, did I miss anything? Are there any other passages from Gollum? - No, I think it's important early in the round of this three-year pass. I cast to note that Gandalf tortured Gollum in the books. And now we have-- - Sure, sure. - And now we have-- - Chow! - Bum! - All right, great stuff. - The lore low down. An aspect of Middle Earth mythology that you love that's on display in this section. Mallory, you got a banger here, hit me with it. - I mean, it's just in the proud tradition of which stuff go, ring stuff go. I mean, the chapters that we're talking about today, particularly chapter two shadow in the past, but really this whole stretch of book among the richest in a lot of backstory. - Yeah, the backstory in the history, the kind of moring, right? That's gonna buttress us to navigate the world, not just the story in the plot, but the world that we have entered. And there's so much ring history and lore even under the cover of, and so much of this is unknown and I had to piece it together over quite a long stretch of time. - 17 years. The will of the ring, which we've already talked about, you know, a lot through one episode, but in chapter two, you get a line from Gandalf that just kind of cements your understanding of it. A ring of power looks after itself, Frodo. Like just, oh, spine tingling. Not just the will of the ring, the pull of the ring. This is explored quite a bit. In subtle ways that help us understand even a character has the possession of rational thoughts. Still, what is lost to them already? It has got far too much hold on you, let it go, and then you can go yourself and be free. Gandalf says to Bilbo, right? Or Bilbo says, chapter one, it has been so growing on my mind lately. Sometimes I have felt it was like an eye looking at me and I'm always wanting to put it on and disappear, don't you know, or wondering if it is safe and pulling it out to make sure I tried locking it up, but I found I couldn't rest without it in my pocket. Gandalf will then later kind of call back to this conversation in state of Frodo in chapter two, but he did not suspect that the ring itself was to blame. So even as Bilbo has this feeling about what is happening to him, there's still that degree of remove of awareness about the ring itself, which is like such a great detail. Bilbo took out the envelope, but just as he was about to set it by the clock, his hand jerked back and the packet fell on the floor that Frodo has his version of this in the next chapter. It felt suddenly very heavy as if either it or Frodo himself was in some way reluctant for Gandalf to touch it. With an effort of will, he made a movement as if to cast it away, but he found that he had it back in his pocket, these mirrors and ripples. So great. You know, you talked last pod about the retcon, the hobbit to Lord of the Rings retcon in terms of the story, Bilbo told. This is a great stretch of texts for, not only kind of making that make sense continuity wise inside of the story, but for using the update, the retcon, to heighten some examination of the lore of the ring and the effect that it has. So it's presented not just as, and now I have an update to this story, but as something that helped Gandalf's suspicion grow, that fueled his worry and his wonder, which story I wonder said Gandalf, oh, not what he told the dwarves and put in his book said Frodo, he told me the true story after I came to live here. And then later, I thought the true story much more likely and I couldn't see the point of altering it at all. It was very unlike Bilbo to do so anyway. And I thought it rather odd. And then Gandalf says so did I. So things may happen to people that have such treasures if they use them. - Something I love about this section, when we get this meagle-deagle backstory of how Smeagle found the ring. And again, this is something that Peter Jackson poured it into the third movie, but we get the whole story here that Gandalf tortured out of Smeagle. - Yeah. - Is how similar the lies are, Bilbo's lies, the best idea of a presence, so like the Bilbo-Galim comps are already here. And then of course the Frodo-Galim stuff, it's just like what happens to the ring bearer. - Yeah, and like kind of like detective Gandalf is a fun thing, right, when he's up to that point, the lies were too much alike for my comfort, right? There is something, however conscious that thought is, even at that point, as he will come to interrogate it more over time, there's something about that parallel that is undeniable and just sticks and works his way into it's great. Obviously there's a lot about just the preservation of Bilbo and then eventually of Frodo and the youth. And you know, tons and we'll get to the ring verse in another category, obviously we'll be featuring that elsewhere, but there's just a lot in this stretch about destroying the ring, right? You know, when Frodo's like what if we destroyed it? Yeah, what if we destroyed it? And Gandalf's just like try it, try it, try it, try it. - I can't, yeah. - Honestly, I can't. - He's like by our way Frodo, fire wouldn't melt the marble gold. - I know, I mean, the bag and her is lovely. So I think that degree of feedback from Gandalf's a little cruel, but try it, try it, try it. Now it's just so good. And then you know on the comedic front, though it's kind of sad, but also funny, we just should use this opportunity to note the legend eternally of Mad Baggins. Mad Baggins, who like disappeared at his birthday party. Do you think he was like a popular Halloween costume on the Shire? I mean, before you dress up as Mad Baggins. - And that's what I say when I don't go to a Halloween party. - And they're like, where were you? And like I dress up as Mad Baggins. - I don't know what you want me to tell you. - Great stuff. So yeah, just an incredible stretch for Ringlorn. We'll hit a little bit more of it in other categories with the Ringverse, but. - Yeah, I just want to add a great parsing of text from you as always. He, Sauron, led a great part of his own former power pass into it, The Ring. This is a second, but also my last Harry Potter reference, but like the horror cruxiness of The Ring is undeniable in the way in which like Tethering. Sauron is back. And so then the Ring is like, what's that? - Yeah. - Time for me to get into action. And this idea, you know, like of the world has changed, like the way that the orcs are back and the trolls are back and the trolls are not as dumb as they used to be. And all this sort of stuff, like the world is waking up. Baradour is being rebuilt. All these things are happening. And it just made me think of the first line of the movie, The World Has Changes, what the lateral says in the prologue of the movie. And this, you know, Tolkien talked a lot about that. Is, is Galadriel here? - Galadriel here. - Rewatching season one of rings of power. - God. - We're prepping to, you know, this, you can listen to this whenever, but we are right now prepping to talk about rings of power, season three. And like the number of lines from season one of rings of power that are so important to us. - Is Galadriel here tough to top, but in DC power and have you heard of them loud, basically like the word of Sauron, House of Arc, Canon, Namarie, Namarie. - Sad. - Adriel put up your sword. All right. - No, I love that one. - My pick is more frivolous than your incredible ring thesis that you just gave us, but in Tom Cruise Cake fashion, this is not really what I was just, I just wrote Tom Cruise Cake in my book. The lore of the Tom Cruise Cake is that, Tom Cruise sends you a cake on your birthday. That's not exactly what I'm talking about here, but I just always think it's interesting that like, I don't know, Tom Cruise is just like, I'm gonna give cakes to the world, coconut cake. It's disgusting. - Oh, do you not like coconut? - It's not the coconut, it's white chocolate. It's a butt cake, my friend got it for you once. It's a butt cake with white chocolate chips in it, covered in coconut. - Sounds delicious. - It's the white, you like white chocolate? - I mean, yes, I don't. - But it's not something I seek out, but if it, you know what I like? It's a white chocolate macadamia nut cookie. - Oh yeah. - I could have handled that because of like, the macadamia nut and stuff like that. It's just like so, it's very sweet. Anyway. - Okay. - The Hobbit method of giving everyone else a present on your birthday, - Yes. - Actually in Hobbitin and Biwater every day in the year with somebody's birthday, so that every Hobbit in those parts had a fair chance of at least one present, at least once a week, but they never had tired of them. - Not that we needed more evidence that Hobbitin, that the shire, it's the place to be. But if we did need more evidence, that would have been it. - Should we start giving each other presents on our birthdays? - Oh, I thought you were gonna say once a week. - Oh, sure. (laughing) Great. - Love it. - Great stuff. - All right, next we have Letters Look. - Yeah. - This is Insights from the Prominent Tolkien scholar, Tolkien himself, something from the Letters that really stood out to you. - Okay, so mine is actually connected to what you were just hitting in the lore category about the gift of the presentation on the birthday. - Not so much because of any particular insight. I'm about to share, but because of what this one says about the nature of the letter writing, right? And like if people are listening to this pot and like is it worth checking this out? Oh my God, this is like 700 plus page. This one of my favorites is letter 214 to AC None. It doesn't have a precise date on the Tolkien response. The estimate is 58 to 59. And if you read the whole thing that he talks at the end about how he's like put it down and has returned to it, his wife has been sick and then she fell. So they don't know exactly when it is, but it is a reply to a reader. So this was also giving me like Hobbits and Dragons inbox vibes and like your connection to Tolkien like reading the kind of in conversation with the reader, right? Stanley in the back of a comic book sort of thing. - Yes, exactly. So there's a bit of a well actually from this reader who's like, I'll quote a little portion of it to kind of get the gist across. And the chapter along expected part of it is stated that Hobbits give presents to other people on their birthdays, yet golem refers to the ring as his birthday present and the account of how he required it in the chapter of the shadow of the past indicates that his people received presents on their birthdays. Mr. Nuns letter continued, therefore one of the following must be true. One, Smeagle's people were not a quote, Hobbit kind as suggested by Gandalf. Two, the Hobbit custom of giving presents was only a recent growth. Three, the customs of the stores differed from the other, from those of other Hobbits, or five, there was an error in the text. Tolkien's responses is like so long, so thoughtful, in the response, which is worth reading and enjoying, he gets into all sorts of details about the gift, giving tradition, like the hot bits, giving gifts to their parents on their birthdays, et cetera. But this is why I picked this. Quote, in the matter of the birthday customs and the apparent discrepancies that you note, we can therefore, I think, dismiss your alternatives one in five, you omit four. He just just like you forgot number four on my guy. - You forgot my guy, dumbass. - You emailed me into, you tweeted me. - You didn't, well actually. - You tweeted at me reply guy, and you omitted four. So I just think, 'cause we're one of the things we're honoring as the snark and the snark. - But also it is such a thoughtful engagement and the fact that you can get insights into the depth of the mythology and world building in a form like this, obviously, really interesting. - The letters are incredible in terms of all the lore that's in his mind. - Yeah. - I don't have lore stuff here. I have relatable writer stuff. - Great. - This is letter 23 from 1938. - Hmm. - It's an early one. - So a long time before he published Lord of the Rings. - Hmm. - He sent a lot of letters to his publisher being like, "I'm working on it." Basically, a real George R. Martin shit from him here, right? He says, "They say it is the first step that cost the effort. I do not find it so. I am sure I could write unlimited quote first chapters. I have indeed written many. The Hobbit sequel is still where it was and I have only the vagus notions of how to proceed. Not ever intending in a sequel. I fear I squandered all my favorite motifs and characters on the original Hobbit." So I sent this to a friend of mine who's a writer and I was like, "Imagine your J.A.R.R. Tolkien. Before you've written Lord of the Rings, you're like the tank-septiceye." - I'm done, I'm out again. - I did it all for the Hobbit. I got nothing left. - I'm out of ideas. - I'm so sorry. So I just think that's hilarious. And it's also interesting to like one of the, so like take heart. If you're out there in the world and you're like, I'm out of inspo, you might have an entire Lord of the Rings than you, who's to say? Okay. I also included that because one of the books that I've been reading along with like all of this is called "The Return of the Shadow," where my Christopher Tolkien is a collection of earlier versions of the text, letters, like all this other stuff where he's just basically trying to, this is just for fellowship and then there's like one for each of the books. But basically he's trying to trace his father's process in writing Lord of the Rings. If you pick this up, you might get tripped up in chapter one 'cause there's like five different versions of chapter one that are here in the beginning here and he's just sort of like because he says in this letter, he kept writing chapter one because, and I think it's interesting if you read these two chapters, the tonal difference I find between chapter one and chapter two, it also explains Tom Bombadil, I think, 'cause basically he was writing a lighter version of the story where like Bilbo sets out on a different adventure or Bingo sets out on a different adventure or Drogo. I mean, like just like the different names, it was almost always eventually four hobbits, but like the combination of who was going changed a million times, but it was always going to be some sort of like lighthearted adventure and then they get to Rivendell and as you mentioned, I think last week, you got to Rivendell. He's like, fuck, I don't know what I'm doing at a backtrack and it's again, right? - Yeah, that's right. - But he wrote chapter one so many times and rereading chapter one it's so interesting because it's so tight and it's so funny and it is such a good example of someone who just had like, I don't know, literally years, you just refine and refine and refine the humor of a chapter. He's just like, the jokes per minute in the first chapter, but then you get this like wild tonal swing into Shadow of the Past. But then if you follow them in like the hobbits as they go forward and we'll talk about this as we go forward, but like the Tom Bombadil stuff, I think very much belongs to this earlier idea of like, the hobbit set out on a lighthearted adventure. So before he figured out that the one ring was the one ring, this is before and we'll get to sort of like the thing that unlocked it all for him when we talk about next week's sort of section, but I just love this idea that he just like, was writing this like really bouncy lighthearted, funny, snarky little hobbitty chapter over and over and over and over and over again, got into his text and eventually was like, oh, actually I'm writing a really scary story about the Dark Learned Sauron and the one ring and all this sort of stuff like that. Let me go back and then that's why you get so much lore in the second chapter, but it's just like really funny for me to think about that and just think about, I don't know, it's aspirational as for fiction writers everywhere, like, you know, just keep going and keep going and eventually you might unlock the idea of the one ring and Sauron and all the rest to come from there. - I mean, who has not put T.K. lead into a Google doc and then just gone right to the nut graph, you know? Like, I've all been there. - I fear I squandered all my favorite both teams and characters on the original hobbit. - Man. - I'm gonna say that to you next time, I can't get the notes together for a podcast. - I fear I squandered it all. - All right, our next section is Songs and Poems Spotlight. Oh, but anyway, I do, this is an incredible read, the Return of the Shadow, this whole series is very fascinating. Songs and Poems Spotlights. We got a couple bangers here. - Some Alzheimer's. - Do you want to start or do you want me to start? - Maybe I should start to go for this. - Yeah, yeah, please. - This is a biggie. - I'm gonna, let's talk about the road goes ever on. - Great. And this idea that we've talked about before many times about all being part of the same story. So in this section of the movie, we see Bilbo leave the bag end for the last time and hums a little bit of the road goes ever on. And he sings it here in the book. He sang it originally in the hobbit. So this is like a walking song, a road song from the hobbit. Other characters will also sing it in Lord of the Rings. And so it's just sort of like this all being part of the same story idea. Here's a quote from like a little later in the book, but he used to often say that there was only one road that it was like a great river. It springs where at every doorstep and every path was its tributary. And here's a couple ideas that Tolkien love to put forward about. So that idea of like we're all in the same river together, the big river, right? If you were a big river. We're all in the same river together. He would talk about story that way as well. Like story is one long big river. He also used a couple other metaphors to talk about this idea of like the one story that we're all a part of. Quote, the pot of soup, the cauldron of story has always been boiling and to have it continually been added new bits, datey and undatey. That's from on fairy stories. - Would you say in the brew? - In the brew. - In the brew with a cauldron of story. So the cauldron of story, that's one. The other is the tree of tales, of course, from Tolkien our guy at the tree lover. It is easy for the student of folklore to feel that with all his labor, he is collecting only a few leaves. Many of them now torn or decaying from the countless foliage of the tree of tales, with which the forest of days is carpeted. It seems vain to add to the litter who can design a new leaf. So something that Tolkien talks about is that it's the storyteller's responsibility only to unfurl a leaf on this giant tree of story, the same tale that goes ever on, the one river that we're all on, the big soup pot of story, et cetera, et cetera. And I was thinking a lot about that when I was thinking about to your point that you mentioned earlier, Gandalf putting together all the pieces of the story, this idea that yes, the hobbit has been mentioned so many times because Tolkien's like, I'm writing a sequel to the hobbit. So we, and then I need to reconcile this retcon. So we need to like put all these pieces together. But Gandalf saying like, well, there's this megal-deagle story. That's part of this. And there's Bilbo story that, you know, this is a leaf on the tree. And this is a leaf on the tree. And it's all part of this one and Frodo and Sam are still going to be in that same tree just on a different branch. And I just love that idea that Tolkien like that cauldron of story that's been boiling away and he calls it like the bones of history that you put in the cauldron of suit. Like, I mean, it's just incredible to think about. So I was just thinking about that. I mean, the road goes ever on is, we've talked about it before on the podcast. Like, it's just like a thing that I love. We love a walking song. We love all of this. But just this idea of like story-shared stories continuing on, we're all walking the same road together. That's the best. The moment in the prior slice of the movie that we talked about, it's like one of the subtle choices they make, but that that's what Gandalf is very gently quietly singing as he arrives into the shire, so then you can think about the connection and the history that he and Bilbo shared in their adventure and all of it and the way that the past informs the future and the present, it's great. The unfurling thing, like that is also one of the fun things about the letters and just any, obviously, any mode through which Tolkien talked about his work. Like, we talked about this a little bit last week, but the kind of meta-connection there when Peter Jackson and his team are talking about making the movie an unearthing history, that they wanna be, this is here for us to discover and showcase and present, that that's, and there's a kind of like practical element of it that I always admire when actually in the letter that I was just talking about, the gift one, I can't remember the exact, but he does it in that letter. He's like, well, if I miss something, it's 'cause like I'm just here to, oh yeah. And he does this routinely, right? Well, I'm just here, I'm unfurling history. Like it seems to me to discover so I'm about the fact that I had or my character, and it's just, it might've been mistranslated in one of the text that I was referencing. It's so good, it's so good, I love it. Great, but the ring verse is in chapter two. I've heard of it lots. Something I love about this is that canonically, Sarah knew at least the first two lines of the ring verse 'cause he put it on the ring. I mean, it's a banger, and it's on every spot if I rap to cross middle earth. It's true. How could it not be? Topper. Come on. So in chapter two, you know, similar to the way that this goes in the film, I cannot read the fiery letters to set Frodo in a quevering voice. No, said Gandalf, but I can. The letters are Elvish of an ancient mode, but the language is that of Mordor, which I will not adhere to. But this in the common tongue is what has said close enough. And then we get the famous last couple of lines. Don't worry, I have the meter in a rhyme scheme. So we get the inscription, but then in the text here, we get the full thing. Three rings for the Elven Kings under the sky, seven for the dwarf lords in their halls of stone, nine for mortal men doomed to die, one for the dark lord on his dark throne in the land of Mordor, where the shadows lie. Oh, shadows capitalize naturally, one ring to rule the mall, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all. And in the darkness, find them in the land of Mordor, where the shadows lie. You know, I tend to misuse iconic, but that's actually iconic. Literally everyone does that. It's here it is. It's iconic. It's the best. It's fun to actually have the stretch of story where it's presented to us. And also, we get a little bit more of the lore are paired with the ring verse in this stretch of the text, you know, of the three Gandalf says, the elf, we talked about this a lot on rings of power. Come up again for season three. The elf lords hid from him and his hand never touched them or sully them. So obviously, the end of season one of rings of power in two season two. This was something we discussed a lot of the seven three he has recovered. And the others dragons have consumed of the the nine for man long ago, they fell under the dominion of the one and they became a ring with its shadows under his great capitalist shadow, his most terrible servants. And then you you shared the passage about about the one about Sauron, his power passing into passes into it. What a what a just an incredible turn of phrase so that he could rule all the others. If he recovers it, then he will command them all again, whether wherever they be, even the three. So that's the those are the steaks. It's the history, but it's the future all presented to us. Again, I got one of those by the way. I'm wearing one of them firing. Um, a couple of things that I love about like the earlier drafts of the story. First of all, instead of Lord of the Rings, he called him the Ring Lord, which just is way worse than Lord of the Rings. Ring Lord. I mean Lord, Lord of the Rings is tough to tough to top. Ring Lord. Um, and here's here's a passage from an earlier draft. He sent them to all sorts of folk. The elves had many and there are now many elf rates. Like different lower idea, but think about elf rates. How in the world, but the ring, but the ring Lord cannot rule them. The goblins got many and the invisible goblins are very evil. Like these, this is just early idea, but I was captivated by that idea of an elf ring and how scary that would be. Okay. The most token thing is signature idea or element of style. Um, so many choices in the stretch. What did you go with? I went with something we say all the time, which is save the shire, but not for me, right? I should like to say this is Frodo. I should like to say the shire if I could. Oh, there have been times when I saw the inhabitants too stupid and dull for words. This is hard felt that an earthquake or an invasion of dragons might be good for them, but I don't feel like that now. I feel that as long as the shire lies behind safe and comfortable, I shall find wandering more bearable. I shall know that somewhere there is a firm foothold, even if my feet cannot stand there again. So this idea that like the shire existing and preserving is important to Frodo and as he goes on his journey. Like, and you know, we'll get to the end when he's like, he can't even like, remember the shire, but just sort of like this idea of like preserving the shire is so important and it will help me to know that the shire is there, even if I don't get to go back to it. There's this from 1944 again, like earlier in the process of developing the story from, um, so this is a decade before the book was published. This is something that Tolkien wrote about Sam versus Frodo. He had not yet figured out sort of like why Frodo couldn't go back to the shire, but this is what he wrote. Certainly Sam is the most closely drawn character, the successor to Bill, though, the first book, the genuine hobbit. Frodo is not so interesting because he has to be high-minded and has, as it were, a vocation. The book will probably end up with Sam. Frodo will naturally become too ennobled and rarified by the achievement of the Great Quest and will pass west with all the great figures. So like, he's like Frodo is just going to be like too vaunted, but like instead it's, he's too damaged and like, you know, wounded to, to ever, you can't go home again. And so I just like, like this earlier idea, where he was always like, it's going to be Sam and the shire and Frodo not the shire. So early on, he was like, save the shire but not for me, but for very different, more, more bleak and potent reasons at the end of the day. But also shout out my guys, Sam. I mean, this is a classic thing. The genuine hobbit, he says. Your main character is never your most interesting character ever. With apologies to Frodo who we love. Don't snow, not apologizing to you. Okay. You've got a banger pick here. So this will be connected to a pick I have in another category that we've added for this podcast, because there is a lot of stuff in this stretch in chapter two shadow in the past that is just from a different portion of the story and the film adaptation, the Moria. And so I'll come back to the other Moria stuff in another category, but pulling out of that broader, repositioning of a chunk of story, pity, because we get the pity, we get some of the pity talk here in chapter two, shadow in the past. And pity is something that, you know, we've talked about a lot over the years. It comes up in our coverage of other stories when rings is on our mind. It comes up when we cover rings of power, obviously. And some of the most famous and thought provoking lines that like inspire you if you're a reader of this book or a watcher of this film to really take seriously the question of choice and consequence. And what moral clarity really means and looks like, right? So we get the set up first. He hated the dark and he hated the light more. He hated everything and the ring most of all this is Gandalf of course describing Gollum to Frodo. He hated it and Frodo's like, what are you talking about? Fast. Frodo is really funny and Gandalf's dropping a lot on him. So I would have follow questions too, but it's just amazing. He hated it and loved it as he hated and loved himself. He could not get rid of it. He had no will left in the matter. And then of course we get the famous exchange. What a pity, Frodo says that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature when he had a chance. Pity, Gandalf replies, it was pity that stayed his hand. Pity and mercy not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo, be sure that he took so little from the evil and escaped in the end because he began his ownership of the ring so with pity. And then later he says to him as he does in the film, my heart tells me that he has some part to play of Gollum for good or ill before the end. And when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many. Gandalf even incorporates pity into talking about his own internal turmoil, right? Yet the way the ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. So the fact that he can champion and tout the pity and mercy of Bilbo may rule the fate of many, but say when he knows that he has to reject the temptation of the ring. Through me, he would look at others with pity and the desire to help and do good, but he knows he is one of the few who can say, I wouldn't have the strength. I wouldn't. And so this is just like an elemental. It really is an elemental. We talk about this all the time. There's so much in these chapters that we talk about all the time. I mean, maybe, I mean, really both of them, but chapter two is like, if you had to pick one chapter that has just man, yeah, so much of the stuff that, you know, we talk about and the rest of the story calls upon. We'll talk about this as Brian, but like what an adaptive challenge for Jackson and co and like what a brilliant idea to tuck some of it away in Moria and tuck some of it away into Return of the King, you know, Sprillian. And I just love, you know, we've had so many different versions, whether we're talking about like a Obi-Wan, you know, an Anakin flashbacker, obviously, we talk about like something that embarrassed, you know, the madness of mercy. Like when is a character in a story that we are really interrogating, positioning something like pity and mercy as, you know, okay, you said we were done with the Potter references, but like, no, it is my mercy, Draco, that matters now, right? It's like, this is a recurring area of examination. Because it is such a huge experience. Yeah. And it is just such a human thing, right? Is like, what level of empathy, consideration, patience, care can you find even for someone who has wronged you, who has scared you, who stands in your way? Do you end up thinking that that was a mistake? You know, the madness of mercy or is it a glimmer, like the shine and a jewel of like the human thing that is worth preserving, the human capability that is worth fighting for amid the creeping dark. So I don't know. It's hard to pick like, it is hard. I don't know. Maybe at the end of our three year project, we'll say, that's the one idea, the one. What's the one ring idea? But like, this is up there. I pray what project we were working on. Maybe it was rings of power season two. But like, I bought a book that was just like talking pity and mercy. It was just like an entire book that was about the idea of pity and mercy and like, how those tokenian ideas work. Yeah, the, the merchant of Venice line, the quality of mercy is not strange. This idea of like, to be merciful is to be human. If you have a firm grip on your humanity, right? It's not all of us. Or you care to try to, you know? Oh, love it. Palantir prophecies, a kernel that will pay off later. This, this is connected to what you just said. So I'm going to, I'm going to go first, which is this is when they're talking about golem and, and what's going on with his warped brain after all the furtive resentful eating that he's doing in the dark and stuff like that. This is what Gandalf says. There was a little corner of his mind that was still his own. And light came through it as though a chink in the dark. Light out of the past. It was actually pleasant, I think, to hear a kindly voice again, bringing up memories of wind and trees and sun on the grass and such forgotten things. So this idea that there is a bit of habitiness still left in golem that can be reached the smegle that's still inside of him, you know, and sort of like, we've talked before about this idea that like the harm that Sam does in his distrust of that is like that. But like the, the good that Frodo's pity and mercy does for golem. And, you know, all of this needs to happen to get them where they need to get to at the end of the story. Yes. So even though it does not work out as like a forwardemption arc for golem, these steps forward and backwards along the way are all necessary importance. They're also like in, in, in these chapters, there are some passages where Frodo is, we are, we have access to Frodo's internal mindscape. Yeah. And there are descriptions of him as like two minds, right? But the other voice. And they're like the idea of just the capacity for the smegle golem inside of Frodo, you know, very early there. Like it struck me on this street in a way it hadn't previously. I think just because we've been talking so much about golem. But I love, you know, the balance, right? There's balance of good and, and, and evil and dark and light. But I love in these early chapters, especially, obviously golems with us for quite a while here. The way that there are, for every passage that presents some sort of like damned or doomed portrait or somebody, including Frodo and some of the pastures we've shared says something about a vile, right? There's something there to just put a little check on the impulse to see him exclusively through that light. You could put the other, have you? Yeah. Like the, um, just even the way, and Gandalf's doing a lot of like, like it's probably too late, but like maybe, you know, in the paragraph that you're, you're citing in a couple others. But like the, the place where the line where he just says, I think it's a sad story. You know, I think it's a sad story and it might have happened to others even to some hobbits I have known. So there's the kind of very intentional like there before the grace. Yeah. Like, you know, okay, cool it. Like let's think about this as the cautionary tale. Check in at the end of book three, buddy. It's a great pick. It's a great, great, great pick. There's another really quickly. There's another, um, when he's describing this megal origin and how like, you know, first thing that's megal does when he gets the ring is he like goes home. Yes. And he's just like invisible all the time and everyone fucking hates him and like kicks him and stuff like that because he's a little piece of shit. He became sharp eyed and keen eared for all that was hurtful. So he's just lurking around, looking for like ways in which to fuck with people. And it just made me think about like, you know, him with Frodo and Sam and watching and listening and just sort of figuring out how he could drive a wedge where I need to drive the, that slice sort of like, yeah, I'm watching and listening comes from the very beginning when, when megal gets the ring, just the dusting of some love is from some crumbs that I put there. Yeah, that line, uh, the ring had given him power according to his stature. Hmm. It's just fascinating, uh, description. By the way, just since you've, you've mentioned, um, gollum returning home after brutally murdering Deagle toffee bear, hit his body well, brought to gollum. Great job. CSI, great job. CSI, Gladdenfield's like later, they're like, oh, I'm drinking all this blood, but yeah, I mean, Deagle, matriarch. Okay, Winslet. Just like the fact that there's a woman mentioned as a very prominent part of this family. So like, time wait, time wait, that can't be, I think Kate Winslet is supposed to be playing someone in the hunt for Gollum, as we've been playing someone from Gollum's family, but yeah, it's timeline that can't be, 'cause he's like under the misty mountain forever. So like, she can't be like this matriarch, right? But a descendant, perhaps? Modern matriarch? Cool. Love it. Yeah. Who's like, we still, we never even found Deagle's bones. We still know where Deagle is. Could be anywhere. You find Smeagle. You ask him where Deagle's bones are, so we can be incredible. Um, so my pick is gonna be Saramon set up, which is, I would say, an extricable from the entire canon. You know, we've already set on prior pods and will again. We've got some notes on how everybody conducted. We've got some notes for the White Council and everybody who conducted themselves the way they did when the Necromancer was out there. But in this chapter, chapter two, Gandalf's kind of explaining some things, right? I could only watch him wait. I might perhaps have consulted Saramon the White, but something always held me back. That, I love that line. Something always held me back. His knowledge is deep, but his pride has grown with it, so another little harbinger there, right? When the rings were debated in the council, all of it he would reveal to us. His ring, Lord, told against my fears, so my doubts slept. So Saramon, just like epic gas later and misdirector, he's like, don't worry. He's like, the ring's gone. Don't worry about the fact that Baradora is still the bottom of Baradora is still there, which definitely means that the ring is still out there. Some are don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. So good. The fact that Galadriel is Galadriel here. The fact that Galadriel wanted Gandalf to lead the White Council. And he's like, I don't want it, right? And then so Saramon, so like Saramon's resentment is like, they wanted you and they had to settle for me. Saramon's salty bitch. Man, he's a petty little bitch. Boy, nice nails though. Great nails. Yeah, great nails. You know, you're always on wig watch, but also nail watch. I learned a lot from you about vampire nails when we were covering a list at. So now we have some nails of the wise here to consider as well. That's nice. Yeah, keep those things clean. You know, obviously with Saramon, we have some not just allegiance to Sauron mornings to consider, but eventually in the future of the text, there's a lot of scouring on the shire set up in these chapters in a ton of different ways. So so now it's that might be the thing that we get to the end of the day is the thing we miss, the scouring the shire. Yeah, I just don't can you imagine the scouring and the shire, which is for people who don't know is this important thing that happens in the end of the return of the king where like the conflict comes to the shire essentially. Yes, if that had been at the end of return of the king where people already bitched about like different endings of return and another ending. Six I could make my piece, but I'd love for darn it. The king is you know, but it's everything a perfect film. But yeah, we have like the, you know, the the sharky, um, Saramon, stuff, but also because we have so much sackville bag and stuff here, there's like the eventual lot of just poisoning of the well there. And the sandy man stuff in this stretch for for a piece of shit Ted Sandy Man's future involvement there. So there's there's really quite a bit of setup there. Yeah. The Miller Sandy Man and his son Ted Sandy Man and everyone is like, we fucking hate these guys. And we know that later they will be actually billets. Yeah. Said the gaffer who did not much like the Miller. Yeah. It's one of those great bits of shorthand where you're like, wait, then I probably should be on that guard with this game. D doesn't like you. You're out. Man. All right, tree hugger testimonials. It's okay to love trees, but it's not okay to love trees. You've already had a couple tree references for our guy talking so far. Yes. Here's my quote. Everything looked fresh and the new green of spring was shimmering in the fields and on the tips of the trees fingers. So my guy told kids like, he's choosing fingers. Sure do. What are they going to do if you touch me? Yeah, I can touch them. Thingies. Incredible. Great one. Um, I would say my pick, I'm going to make an end to pick here. And I would say that these are to a certain year and I, pretty sexy descriptions of the of the ends in chapter two. So there's there's a lot of great Sam's. I mean, obviously, always we could just do the part about Sam. You know, on the Pell and tear prophecies front, actually, there's some great, there's some great just Sam talking about his love of stories. Stuff and in this chart. obviously elves, but more generally, you know, crazy, crazy about stories of the old days he is stuff. But so Sam is basically in an end argument, right? He's like a sassum. But what about these tree men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors, not long back. And then this one was big as an Elm tree and walking, walking seven yards to a stride if it was an inch. I mean, they sound hot. They sound like they're ready for the runway. I mean, this is something we should say. The elves we see now were, you know, we're interacting with elves. The answer out, you know, like, uh, yeah, the creatures are out. That's yeah, absolutely. I mean, even like, there's some dwarves making their way through the Shire. There's a lot. My runner up for this category, just because potatoes is so iconic here on this podcast and we've named it a category after I have a potato shirt. It's one of my, um, you know, you observe with love and affection, um, that I have some sort of text where I hear a thing. And then I just, so this one says potato when they're all and I have to go pull potatoes. So in chapter one, in the matter of roots, especially potatoes, the gaffer was recognized as the leading authority by all in the neighborhood parentheses, including himself. I just love the idea that potatoes, it's a, it's a family legacy from the gaffer to Sam and inheritance. Potatoes. Wonderful. Just wonderful. On the end front, can I just say really quickly, uh, and an invention of Tolkien, you know, like borrowed creatures from various other mythologies, but the ends he created, uh, A, because he wanted to fuck a tree, but B also because he's always said that he was disappointed by the line of Macbeth. The prophecy in Macbeth is the Great Burnham Wood to high doesn't deny Hill that the wood would move. And what that winds up meaning is that they cut down the trees and use the timber, so like that. But it's like, this won't happen until this happens. And it's like, a forest kit moved to a hill that would never happen. And they cheat in the prophecy by cutting down the wood. And that's how it gets there. It's also a lie from Hamilton, you might know. But, um, he's like, what if, what if the trees could walk and fuck? I mean, you know, tell me think about. All right. Most delightfully literal translation of Elvish or Dorvish or any other language. Uh, can I just say really quickly? We got some pushback from this on the, by the, from the listeners, uh, on this category. As I was saying, I'm not with love. Yeah. With love. I'm not mocking Tolkien. Of course, this is a linguistic, uh, thing that he's a linguist. Yes. His invention of language is so incredible. This is something that, you know, especially in terms of place names and something like that, like, this is something that, you know, is done across. A lot of people are like, big river, you mean like the Rio Grande. And I'm like, yes, yeah. I get it. Yes. This is not saying he's dumb for doing this. It's just kind of fun when you look up the word and you're like, oh, those are the parts of the word. You know what I mean? Etymology is interesting. It is. What do you got? Uh, I, you know, Mordor are very central to this stretch of text. So, uh, if not now, when, uh, Black land in Sondar and in dark country, land of shadow. Uh, hot, quenia. Great one. My big one is Gandalf, Wandalf, like, I just think that's fun. But also, you know, who gets a mention in this section is and Calagon the Black, which is a dragon. Uh, also based on an interview, I just watch with Charlie Vickers. It sounds like he's going to get mentioned in the ranks of power as well on and Calagon the Black. Here's what in Calagon means biting storm or rushing jaws. I mean, incredible. Sick dragon. That's awesome. Biting storm, rushing jaws. So I just thought I would say that. Okay. It's kind of, it makes me think of laughing storm just because you said storm. Yeah, the laughing storm. The biting storm. This is, yeah, some real, some real smart energy. Okay. Feeling fantasies. This is a, this is a topic. Superlative. We're only doing for this chapter. So you say, probably. There are so many fun habit names that are mentioned in these chapters. And so we just thought we would pick two for like what we would name a cat. If we were to name a cat after one of the Hobbits that are mentioned, and there are so many options, what did you pick? For me, despite the treasure trove of contenders, it wasn't easy choice. Ham Gamji, aka master, Ham Fasper Bilbo is an incredible cat name. Incredible. Shout out to Daffer Sam's dad. Ham Gamji. Ham Gamji. That's incredible. Oh, man. Can I actually do something I learned about? Okay, this comes from another book that I've been reading, which has been really interesting. I just like to say my sources. Another book is the Lord of the Ring of Readers Companion. This thing is sick. And it's just like annotated almost every line of the books. And you can just like read fun facts. So Gamji apparently is another word for cotton wool. So basically like a cotton ball. And Tolkien knew a Doctor Gamji in his youth. And so he just thought it was really funny that there was a doctor named like Doctor Band-Aid essentially, you know, and just like stuck in his mind. And then Gaffer Gamji comes from like they were, he and his kids were on holiday. And they're he was like, it's an imitation used to do a you call a rustic, so a hick. Basically, and he was just sort of like, this is a character he used to do for his kids based on like someone they met on holiday. It's just sort of like, oh, Master Gamji. Hemfast Gamji. But it's why Rosie Cotton is named cotton. So it's Sam Gamji and Rosie Cotton. Two cotton balls finding love together. Love it. It could be better. Love it. My cat name has to be Daddy Twofoot, which is the name of one of the hobbits here. My love burrows is a close second, but Daddy Twofoot, it's just really good. I mean, Drogo Baggins would be a great, if you're a lover of both thrones and rings, yeah, it has dual utility there, which is nice. That is nice. All right, favorite turn of phrase, we might be here a minute. Oh boy. Do you want to start with one? Yes. And I contained myself on the on the runners off. It was challenging, but my this my pick for my main pick was easy, because I've said before, I think that this is one of my favorite passages. It is from chapter two. I wish he had never found it, and that I had not got it. Why did you let me keep it? Why didn't you make me throw it away or destroy it? And Gandalf replies, let you make you, said the wizard, haven't you been listening to all that I have said? So this is in the same stretch of story where we get the fabled meant to have it idea. And so, you know, this is one of like my favorite things to think about and talk about is how like the idea of like choice and destiny can coexist, right? In our minds and our lives, in the fictional stories that we spend a lot of time thinking about and inhabiting. And so there's room for both, you know, and the way that Tolkien will sometimes talk about and through Gandalf often, but the idea of like multiple powers, right? That there can be a question of some sort of a larger picture and plan and trying to think about or understand what your place in that is, but then also you have to decide. You have to decide to say, I will do this thing, right? I will do it. And that both of those can be true. Now, in the interest of full disclosure, it is also true that Gandalf in the stretch is like, if I made you it would just broken your mind, so it's like, also that. Yes, that's also that. But I just, I don't know, I really, to me, that idea is like so important, like let you make you happen, you've been listening to a word I've said. And I mean, it's important to, there's all, you know, as that letter you cited earlier, there's a lot of like, well, what about, you know, so it's sort of like, why wouldn't Gandalf just do XYZ if he's so powerful, if he's such a powerful wizard, he's like, can't make you. That's not, yeah, that's not what we do here. You know, like the, the story, the five wizards are sent to Middle Earth to stop Sauron or Morgoth, etc., like, hold back evil and to eat snails, snails, snails. That's one of the things to power reference folks. Crunch, shells and all, right? But like, didn't work out well for everyone, obviously. But there are, there are rules around how much they can interfere or not, you know, any mean. And that's, that's, you know, all powerful as star air here, but they can only sort of like guide and shape. And that goes back to something we've talked about a lot, which is like free world, will versus destiny versus, etc., etc. All right. My pick for favorite turn of phrases is to describe a habit lovingly by Gandalf, soft as butter, they can be any yet sometimes as tough as old tree roots. So good. Soft as butter, tough as old tree roots, the nature of a habit. So good. All right. Any other, what are your runners up that you want to? Boy, um, let's see. There are a couple about, a couple of passages about like wandering Frodo that I just, I really, really love. Both of these quotes are from chapters two. Frodo went tramping over the shire with them, but more often he wandered by himself and to the amazement of sensible folk. He was sometimes seen far from home walking in the hills and woods under the starlight. Mary and Pippin suspected that he had visited the elves at times as Bilbo had done. I just love to the amazement of sensible folk. It's like a cousin to like, to his own lasting establishment, Bilbo thinking of it. Also his cousins, Mary and Pippin are like a bit worried. They're like, Frodo. What's up with you, man? What's going on? What's up with you? And then kind of a related one. I love this one. That's one. Frodo began to feel restless and the old padd seemed too well tried and he looked at Matt. maps and wondered what lay beyond their edges. Maps made in the shire showed mostly white spaces beyond its border. - Can you guess what I wrote in the margins next to this quote? - What is it? - What's Wester Westeros? What's the on the shire? - There'll be dragons. - On that note, Bill, but when he talks about wanting to leave, I wanna see the wild country again before I die in the mountains, the wild country. - Love that. - A couple of Bilbo notes. - Yes. - Bilbo was very, very peculiar. - That's right. - That's right. - At 99, they began to call them well preserved, but unchanged would have been near the mark, and that's just like a Los Angeles concept that I wanted to share with everyone. This is a gap we're talking about Bilbo and Sam. He says, "Mr. Bilbo had learned him his letters, "meeting no harm marked you, "and I hope no harm will come of it." So what does it mean for Bilbo to have taught Sam to read, et cetera, et cetera? One of my favorites, always. Gardeners came by arrangement and removed in wheelbarrows those that had inadvertently left behind. That's at the end of the party for people who too drunk took all home. - Incredible. - I mean, Gardeners came with wheelbarrows. - Helpful. - It's like an Uber voucher. - It's great. - Any other ones that you wanna mention? - I mean, a couple of them are on the Bilbo front. You know, we talk, we'll hit this in the movie portion about the, you know, the butter scraped over too much bread, but the book passage is just slightly different in a way that I really love. I am old Gandalf, I don't look at, but I'm beginning to feel it in my heart of hearts. While preserved indeed, he started, why I feel all thin, sort of stretch. If you know what I mean, like butter scraped over too much bread, and then this is the part that I just like, I do find myself missing. That can't be right. That can't be right. It's just the simplicity of that and the Bilbo is able to just, despite it all, it doesn't wanna leave the ring, it doesn't know the ring is to blame, but that can't be right. This isn't how a person should feel. I love that. I also love one Gandalf, a saying goodbye to him. It's a little dig in, but with a lot of charm and heart. Goodbye for the present Bilbo. Take care of yourself. You're old enough. Perhaps wise enough. - It's just a great Gandalf line. I love that one. And then, you know, there's so much we've, we'll talk about these across all the pods, there's just, there's so many great dark power lurking, passages on the stretch. - Yeah, that name even you hobbits have heard of like a shadow on the borders of old stories. What I love about that is that this is a line that Tolkien himself has used in like, various letters and essays. It's the idea of the border of stories, like Sauron peeing over the hedge of the hobbit and he's just sort of like, as the Necromancer, like he's there, but there was, when he wrote the hobbit, there was just like a border around it of this, keeping these darker notions out, but it was always there. That goes right into the famous line, always after defeating the rest, but the shadow takes another shape and grows again, which is just a Alzheimer. - Speaking of, that is a chapter of ancient history, which it might be good to recall for there was Sauron then too, and gathering dark, but great valor, and great deeds that were not holy in vain. So we've done this before. We'll do it again, but guess what? We got through it last time, and we'll get through it again. Not everyone, but some of us will make it through. - Not you, Barber. - Oh, man. I love when Gandalf is going through this history, and his own history of dawning, mounting, dread. It was in the year that the White Council drove the dark power from Merkwood just before the Battle of Five Armies. It gives you a little chill to hear that, doesn't it? - Yeah. - After the-- - That Bilbo found his ring, this is the line. - A shadow fell on my heart, then, though I did not know yet what I feared. I really love that idea, because that just feels very true. You can have that sense inside of you that something is not right, but you don't always know what that something is, right? I just love that description. - Yeah, matches-- - That shadow fell on my heart, then. - Matches that scraped over too much bread. - Yes, yeah. - Ending. A couple golem descriptions. He warmed his way like a maggot into the heart of the hills. - Incredible. - And then relatable, maybe, only nasty, furtive eating and resentful remembering. Nasty, furtive eating and resentful remembering. - My last one is the last line of the second chapter, because, you know, our beloved Sam in the movie, a perfect creation, Sean Austin. But he's like, quite fearful, don't turn me into nothing, or natural, like, he's so scared, or whatever. That's not Sam Gamgee in the book. He says, like, who's gonna go with Frodo? Get all says, he goes, me, sir, Chris Sam spring up like a dog in my fur walk. Me, go and see Elle's and all. - Hooray, he shouted and then burst into tears. Sam, oh, Sam, the best. - Loves the stories. Can't wait to be in one. - Yeah. - Wonderful. Anything else? - Hmm. - I think I'll contain myself and stop there. - All right, we did it. I thought maybe we would just be in that category all day. All right, Leo pointing meme, movie moment. The passage or line, this is new, this week. The passage or line that you added book reader must admit you now hear or see as the film version. This was easy for me. This is the Moria pick. Like, I, I don't know. I mean, I think the Moria, I think the Gandalf Frodo scene in Moria in the Fellowship movie is among the best stuff in the hit, not just in this film or trilogy, but in the history of movies, it's just perfection. - Dory. It, the story is anywhere in the history of time or existence. - Yeah, iconic. - This is a, any earth, iconic indeed. And so, I think, just forget that all these passages are here in chapter two, shout about the past because, and then weirdly, even when I'm reading it, and they're here in the shire having these conversations, I just see it and hear it and feel it in my mind in Moria. It's just cemented for me as the Moria stretch. So, we already talked about the pity quotes, right? Which are part of that. But also, I wish it need not have happened in my time, said Frodo, so do I, said Gandalf, and so do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that has given us, or the Bilbo was meant to find the ring, and not by its maker, mine. In which case, you were also meant to have it, and that may be an encouraging thought. Or possibly my favorite of all of these, which is really saying something. Deserves it, I dare say he does. Many that live to serve death, and some that die to serve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death and judgment for even the very wise, cannot see all ends. Now, these are some of the most beautiful sentences and ideas. They are so gorgeously performed by Ian McClellan in the film. I don't know, it's one of those things we're like, and this is one of the reasons that the adaptation is so accomplished and excellent and beloved, like they are, and this is like, you take a literal thing and you move it, it's just in a different place. There are other changes as we'll talk about today that are bigger, but you read the book, and you're like, of course this should be here. This is foundational. It makes sense, it's the outset of the journey to talk about these things, but also in the movie, yeah, I want to wait until, not hold this discussion, but I want to hold out judgment until I do my reread of the Moria chapter. - Yeah, sure. - What did it have belonged there? - Like, is there something soulful to counterbalance the action inside of that, or how poignant will it feel to have that so close to Gandalf leaving, like dropping this into, like integral wisdom, and then he's gone. Would that have felt, but I'll be interested in like when we get to those chapters to sort of see if I can go to the opposite of it. - It's like I'm not mad that they're in chapter two, and I read chapter two, chapter two is incredible. It's just so gripping, but the placement in Moria, and that stretch of the story to your point, given what is about to happen, and has a doom, is just, I don't know, it's like undeniable to me. It really is undeniable. So that's my Leo pointing me, like I read this in the book, and I'm just seeing it from a completely different slice of the story in my mind. What's your pick here? - I have a couple visuals, and this, so another, this is the last book that I will hold up to camera. Anything you can imagine, Peter Jackson, the Making of Middle Earth, this is a really, really cool book that I'm reading about the Making of Middle Earth, and Peter Jackson was talking about how, when you're reading Tolkien, well, like, the division of labor between Phillipa Boynes, who is like the hardcore Tolkien expert, Peter Jackson, who did the more, sort of, like, what they called muscular action, set pieces, and then, friendwashed, being like the sort of, like, realist talking about, and the, getting to the emotional reality of every, sort of, scene and interaction, and stuff like that. And so those trio, the dragon has three heads, like, you know, you need all of these ingredients, all of these authors behind the screenplay, in order to, like, make it work. But, Peter Jackson talked about how you read certain passages from the book, and you could just see them as movies, as shots. - Sure. - So. Here are a couple that Peter Jackson obviously is like, that's one. Uh, Gandalf and Bilbo, in baguettes. Bilbo baguettes! Right, um, he took a step toward the hobbit and he seemed to grow tall and menacing. His shadow filled the little room. Bilbo backed away to the wall, breathing hard, his hand clutching at his pocket. They stood for a while, facing one another, and the air of the room tingled. Gandalf's eyes remained bent on the hobbit slowly. His hands relaxed, and he began to tremble. Good shit. And then, firework stuff, naturally, of course. Out full red golden dragon, not life-size, but terribly life-like fire came from his jaws, his eyes glared down, there was a roar, and he whizzed three times over the head of the crowd. They all ducted and many fell flat on their faces. The dragon passed like an express train, turned to summer salt, and burst over by water with a deafening explosion. It made me think of the famous story of the time that the Lumiere brothers who made one of the first films ever about a train arriving at train station, that people watching this film as the train is sort of moving towards the camera, they like freaked out and like, got out of their seats because they're like that train, because they could not yet comprehend the idea of like movie, so like this train is like coming for us. So this dragon is coming for us because we don't yet understand like what a firework here can do. One more description of the fire is they were green trees with trunks of dark smoke, their leaves open like whole spring unfolding in a moment, and their shiny branches dropped, dropped glowing flowers down upon the astonished hobbits, and that's just like a shot from the movie. That tree, firework, and then the upturn lit faces. And then last but not least, sometimes I felt it was like an eye looking at me. That's right. You know, this is Peter Jackson's biggest adaptive choice, and we will talk about it several times over the next three years. The idea of making sour on this eye, which is a motif that's repeated, but you know, I just was like, I don't know, I haven't yet read or found out who exactly this idea this was, seems like a Peter Jackson idea to me, would just be like, what if it's just an eye? What if he's just actually an eye? All right, you know, I had to look that up. This is what pod prep is for, something we had to Google as we were reading. So I googled the Springgold ring. Yeah, which the reason I googled it was because so often you'll come across a word or an idea reading Lord of the Rings, and you'll say, oh, I'm eager to learn about the influence. Yeah. Was this in Beowulf? Yeah, probably. Yeah. And did they dance the Springgold ring? Oh, yeah, where's this, what's this Springgold ring dance? And the description is a pretty dance, but rather vigorous. And Springgold is in fact an old English word, nimble, but the dance itself is a JRR original original. And so that was just kind of amusing to me that it was like, yeah, the root of the word it traces to an actual piece of linguistic history. But I was just like, I can't wait to learn about this dance, you know? Anyone doing the Springgold ring out there that I can check out? No. On the firework front, there's a section where he lists a bunch of different fireworks and some of the names that like were kind of familiar to me. But one of them is a Baccaropper, which I had never heard before, had you heard this? No, that whole stretch was like the thunder clapping on all of them. I was like, but a lot of them are just like real like one of them is like the Dwarven candle. That's not real. But like the rest of them are like, it seems to me based on my research, local British terms for fireworks. So then he mixes in the Elven and Dwarven. So the Baccaropper is from the West Midlands, a firework made from multiple firecrackers folded together. So they will explode one after the other. I've seen that before. I just never heard it called a Baccaropper, but I loved who knew? Not me. Could it be me? Snarkiest comment. The festers always welcome to draw some sass. This is just among the richest texts ever. So as I go through the chapters, I've been writing in the margins of my book like Snark, Snark, Snark or Translate, Translate, like to mark for the categories. The Snark in chapter one was out of control. It's unbelievable. What do you have here? So I am going with a little collection of snarky lines from Billbo's birthday speech sequence. Okay. Because one of the things I love about this is the snark moves in all directions. You know, Billbo is quite insulting in many respects in this stretch, but also everyone in the crowd is like, what the fuck's wrong with this guy? Yeah. So it's just a snark off. And I love it. I love it. Here are just a few. Yeah. There are a lot. Honestly, a lot more than this, but here are just a few. All the 144 guests expected a pleasant feast, though they rather dreaded the after dinner speech of their host, an inevitable item. He was liable to drag in bits of what he called poetry. Like of what he called poetry is savage. Position heeled I self Tolkien. Also, these are like the special guests, right? Yeah. They're like, he's going to sing. He's going to put his poems, which is what everyone says about Tolkien in the books. Oh no, not the songs in the poetry professor. Well, I have a little dragon bits of what he called poetry is hysterical. My dear people began Billbo rising in his place. Here, here, here. They shouted and kept on repeating it in chorus, seeming reluctant to follow their own advice. Just a great way to be like what an assemblage of dipshi. This one, this next one's an Alzheimer. Billbo was doing splendidly. He's basically at this point, he has said their names and his age. Yeah. That's it. Full stop. Yeah. This was the sort of stuff they liked. Short and obvious. Dragon. The front of the front of like a dragon should come. Exactly. Earthquakes just stuck them into the ground. Yeah. Why not? The Shire deserves it. Oh, man. And then of course, there's a version of this in the film, obviously. I don't know half of you half as well as I should like and I like less than half of you have this while you deserve. This was unexpected and rather difficult. There was scattered clapping. Most of them were trying to work out to see if that came to a compliment so funny. The face on the actors in the movie when they're like, I just love because we do all of our save the Shire show us the Shire. What an ideal like peaceful portrait of bliss in bounty and then there it's there's a lot of like their their hair dipshits. Yeah. Absolutely. Can I just say in that stretch, I really love the line. Most of the company were however, now in a tolerant mood at that delightful stage was they called filling up the corners. Hobbits are always eating, but here's here's a moment filling up the corners of their just like a little snack, a little bev. What's left? What's left in me that I can cram full of a delightful bev? Let's get some old winners in here guys. Come on. Let's do it. All right. I have to give it to Bilbo's bitchy presence. Yeah. Great. Um, here we go. Yeah. So Bilbo leaves and he leaves behind a bunch of presence with with tags on them, right? For Adelard took for his very own from Bilbo on an umbrella. Adelard had carried off many unlabeled ones for Dora Baggins in memory of a long correspondence with love from Bilbo on a large waste paper basket. Dora was drogo sister and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo. She was 99 and had written dreams of good advice for more than half a century. So Bilbo's like, here's a trash can. It's where I put all your letters for me, Dora. I want a dick for Milo Burrows. Hoping it'll be useful from BB on a gold pen and ink bottle. Milo never answered letters. That's my favorite one because it's a real like it me as I have confessed before Adam and I never sent thank you notes for our own wedding. And like I feel like I've gotten a version of this line from one of my good friends Dave who you met at the lab or anything. Um, I mean we've known each other. We met sophomore year of college. We've known each other for half our lives, you know, is that my wedding? One of my dear friends who comes to Thanksgiving at our house to this day. My wedding was, uh, 12 years ago, 13 years ago, what year is this? You just celebrated an important anniversary. It was in 2014. What year is it now? 16? Okay, so 12 years. So, um, still to this day when Dave sends a, uh, thank you. Thank you note. He will text me a picture of it and be like, gotta thank you know, someone or sent a thank you note to someone. The real move would be to like get you stationary or get you blank thank you notes or something like that. And then I would never sent him a thank you note for it because my stance is he knows I'm grateful. Yeah. That's how I feel too. Yeah, see you get it. For Angelica's use from Uncle Bilbo on a round convex mirror. She was a young bag, Baggins and two obviously considered her face shapely. Angelica, you vain. Here's a mirror. Okay, for the collection of Hugo Brace Girl from a contributor on an empty bookcase, Hugo was a great borrower of books and worse than usual at returning them. So he took a bunch of his books and Bilbo was like, oh, you need a bookcase for all my books. You never brought back for Lobelia, Sackville, Baggins as a present all caps on a case of silver spoons. Bilbo believed that she required a good many of his spoons while he was away on his former journey. Lobelia knew that quite well. When she arrived later in the day, she took the point at once, but she also took the spoons. Just amazing. Less do you think that Bilbo is just a bitch? I'm just going to there's a couple other senses here, right? He remained on visiting terms with his relatives except of course the Sackville Baggins is, right? And then, but of course, most of the things were given where they would be wanted and welcomed. The poorer hobbits and especially those of Bagshot Row, which is where the the game. he's lived did very well. So Bill will have some bitchy presence for some of his relatives he didn't much like or felt like he wanted to tease. But then like a lot of his other stuff went to people who really needed it and would want it. - Billbo really loves a sub-tweet. - He does. - He does. - When we start a new tradition of giving each other presence on our birthdays or whatever. - I think we agreed to everything. - Should they all be sub-tweeted presence? - Maybe like one every, one out of every three. - Okay. - One's a month, something kind of nasty. I don't wanna know. - Oh God. - All right, Tolkien eventually we take for granted. Things we can't believe are didn't realize that Tolkien invented. - What do you have here? - The tweens. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Tweens is hobbits called them the irresponsible twenties between childhood and the coming of age at 33. So this is all about how hobbits have longer lifespans. So when you're in your twenties, you're a tweenager. You're not even like whatever. Tweens is not a word that Tolkien invented. That was sort of it's an old middle English term, but previous to this it just meant sort of between the things between, tweens, certain things, twist and tween. Using it as like an age designation of tween, we now of course use it to mean like pre-teenager, right? 11, 12, that's a tweenager, I think. Between 10 and 13, tweenager. - I think so. - I don't know. - Tolkien, yeah. There you go, incredible. - That's wild. - I just really love that coming of age is 33 in Middle-earth. I kind of, I really remember when I, yes, for hobbits, yes. I remember when I was 33 thinking, it's all about to happen for me. (laughing) - It's all about that. - It happened for me. And then of course, you know, just turn 40. So I have a decade to contemplate this, but the fact that adventures begin at 50. - Begin at 50. - Hell yeah. - 50 was the number that he felt was somehow significant or ominous. It was at any rate at that age that adventure had suddenly be fall in Bilbo Classic, framing there suddenly be fall in Bilbo. - Yeah, I'm just befallin Bilbo. - But yeah, I mean, what sort of adventures await us? That's a fun thing to think about. I love it. Love it. - What's your epic? - I'm cheating, brazenly. But I just had to, I just kind of had to share this sentence, which like shocked me. I don't know why, but I had a like gas reaction and then Google a bunch of stuff. And then I was like, no rate, of course. It's that what the fuck is wrong with me. But here we are, chapter one. The fireworks were by Gandalf. They were not only brought by him, but designed and made by him. And the special effects, set pieces and flights of rocket were let off by him. So I had a moment. This is when you know you're in deep with the parts of it. - Oh, you really did. - Did Tolkien invent the term special effects? - And set pieces. - Yeah. - Which he didn't. - Oh, but like, I couldn't believe this. - Yeah, and especially because we're thinking about this partially through the lens of these VFX blockbusters. - VFX Oscar for Gandalf, is what you're saying, from Bilbo's, from the Philbobos birthday party. He deserved it, he deserved it. Can I share a firework passage from the letters? - Yeah, please. - You love these fireworks. - They are great. - This is what Tolkien said. Fireworks have no special relation to me. They appear in the books and would done, even if I just liked them. Because they are part of the representation of Gandalf, bearer of the ring of fire. And then he wrote, and you love to track when he capitalizes things. Capital T, the capital K, Kindler, the Gandalf, the Kindler. - That's his superhero name, the Kindler. - I mean, put that on a comic cover, put it on like the back of a jersey. - Yeah, so I mean, there's some great, you can't encounter a chapter without encountering some fascinating capitalization. But this stretch, one of the ones I love best is in the stretch where I have called you all together for a purpose capital P in chapter one of Bilbo. Saying that I just love that, it's a great one. - Yeah, Gandalf, the wizard who's famous in the show, was due mainly to his skill with fires, smokes, and lights. As like fun, you know, he smokes his pipe, he does the fireworks well, blah, but he's also the servant of the secret fucking fire. So this idea that like the fire motif, is that gonna come up again? I don't know. Well, we hear it. (laughing) - Blame on him. - All right. All right, the arrogant was originally named Trotter where for the fact you wish you didn't know, yours is better than mine, so I'm gonna start with mine, which is originally the reason that Bilbo sets out on another adventure in one of like 900 versions of the first chapter that I read in this book, the return to the shadow by Christopher Tolkien, is Bilbo's broke. He got all of his treasure from Smog, and then he spent it all, and he needs more money. So Bilbo sets out in the world for more money, was originally an idea. And I just, I mean, I don't, no bad ideas in a brainstorm. - Sure. - Tolkien got here eventually. - Yeah. - So I'm not trying to shame him for Bingo or-- - At work church, you can't be at work church. - Yeah, like you. (laughing) You know, Frodo being named Bingo, Erger being named Trotter, like all the rest, these are all bad ideas that got us in the road to one of the best stories. The, my favorite story of all time. - Yeah. - So I'm not trying to fault him for that, but he's like, well, he's, he's broke. Bilbo's broke, spent all his money, needs more treasure, let's go. Let's just run it back. That's when he was like, I spent all my good ideas in the Hobbit. So maybe he just goes to find more treasure. (laughing) Hobbit two more treasure? I don't know. - Oh my God. Incredible. Anyway, what's your pick here? It's pretty good. - Um, listen. When we say, Erger was originally named Trotter fact. - Oh, word for the fact you wish you didn't know. I just want to really emphasize, the fact you wish you didn't know. I don't want to know this, and I want to apologize to everybody for sharing it. (laughing) Frodo is the product of Incess, folks. Not that we needed one more bit of evidence to understand what your darn Martin is draw to. Rings is, it's a very thronsy thing here. - It's an insular society. - Indeed. - The Hobbits. - Chapter one. - Yeah. - The Gaffer says. You see, Mr. Drogo, he married poor Miss Primila Brandybuck. She was our Mr. Bilbo's first cousin on the mother side, her mother being the youngest of the old, took daughters, and Mr. Drogo was his second cousin. So Mr. Frodo is his first in second cousin, once removed either way as the saying is, if you follow me. Frodo's parents were related to each other. - They're their first cousins, I believe. - This is as like, it's not Jamie and Sorsie fucking, but this is just a very, this is a very Targaryen. - When I saw this note in the document, which she left a while ago, I think. - I went and-- - This was the first thing I made. - That was the first thing you made. I was like, wait, are they brother and sister and I missed it? Then I was like, oh, first cousin. - This is fine. - This is fine. - It's fine. - This is fine. - You know, there are hardly any women in the story who you're gonna fuck if not your cousin. - Exactly. - So you have to think about it. - You know, the fact that Mary and Pippin are Frodo's cousins, it took Ann a Brady book as well as the Baggins. So, you know, these are his cousins. We'll talk more about the class difference between Sam and Mary and Pippin and Frodo probably next week. - Next week, yeah, yeah. - But that's a huge thing, but these are his like, well to do cousins, that's Mary and Pipp. Primula is his mom's name. - A fun fact from the appendices. Female hobbits commonly have the names of flowers or jewels. Rosie, Permula, Lobelia. These are all flowers. So, we'll love it. All right, appendices, we got that through that fast when I thought we would, appendices. Anything we didn't hit that you want to quickly celebrate. - I just have one thing which, let me see if my time travel mind can remember if we've already talked about this in this section or we'll be talking about it shortly with Brian on the pod, but have talked about it today. Just the real, there is emphasis paid in this stretch of story to the fact that Bilbo at the end of the day gave up the ring. There are a couple of passages that are, I think, just important for the characters and the story to confront, but for us, his readers too. And Gandalf is like, it's important to him to say these things to Tell Frodo this, to tell himself this, right? For he gave it up in the end of his own accord and important point. And then later, but as far as I know, Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing and really done it. So we have all these moments. And they're important too where we're like, oh no, Bilbo is saying my own, my precious. He's like, you know, stroking the ring. He's covetous. He's accusing Gandalf of the thing that in his true Bilbo heart, he would not believe him capable of. - Yeah. - The jerking of the hand and the will of the ring and the will of the heart that's all there. And it's harrowing and it's supposed to be, but he does leave it. He does. - I love that. And like, yeah, you know, a sildar couldn't do that, a scholar couldn't do that. Except, I'm sorry. What I love and we'll talk about, we will talk about this with Brian at length, but the way he, in the movie, he can't like place the ring or drop the ring or whatever. He has to just let gravity slide it off his palm. He can't bring himself to be the one to like physically put it away, but he'll just like, you know, let gravity do what it must, you know? And it's just like so good. Anyway, that is the book section. - That's right. - It's a time to have Brian join us for the movie portion. Let's go now to a conversation with Brian Cogman. What an absolute thrill to have friend of the pod. I'm a friend of the pod. You've been here before. That's exciting. Yeah. You're always in our hearts and our minds. We love to talk with you about Lord of the Rings and stories in general. So how could you not be a friend of the pod? Really. Thank you. What would you like to be here with us in person? This is wonderful. I mean, it's like a show. Welcome to the party. Like y'all have a show. It is like a show. It's like a show. It's like it's like good morning America. You know? It's exactly like that. Who's who? Great question. I don't know. I'm like Joan London and Charles Gibson. That's my date. That's my date. That dates me. Well, we are here to continue to chronicle slice by slice obsessively fellowship of the ring because this movie is turned in 25 this December is the 25th anniversary of fellowship of the ring. So of course, we're using it as an excuse to revisit the film to share and celebrate it with other people who love these movies, who love this world, who love going to Middle Earth. We're talking about the books as well. Brian, the last time you were on this podcast, if memory serves, was also to talk about Lord of the Rings. It was heading into rings of power season one. Yes. You joined us for, we sometimes set ourselves in possible tasks. I think pick three favorite Lord of the Rings. Is that what we did for ourselves? Or ring? Oh, was that what it was? Yeah. Deranged. But we did it together. The three of us. So we knew when we started to do this project, we knew we had to talk that doesn't matter. Let's never remember. I remember one of them. I remember having a wonderful time on it, like I remember that you I remember you reciting Far Green country. That's what it says. Oh, yeah. You're a revocation. Yes, yes, yes. You're a recitation of the Far Green Country part. That's what it was. Google it right now. Has forever actually changed my my like relationship with that moment. And you know, as we talk about, we watch the movies every year, we watch the movies every year. And, you know, it's it's from the book as well, of course, but like, but when that moment comes in the movie, I think about you every time. Oh, I just like think about it. It's a tough feat for for Gandalf. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Would you hug me? I mean that's good. That'll take me right through the end of this week. That was the greatest compliment I've ever seen. Yeah, because you, you know, you worked a bit on the first season of rings of power. Sure. I helped them out a bit at the beginning. You helped them out a bit. And then also we know you of old from your work on Game of Thrones. And so you are just like one of my favorite people to talk to about story and fantasy story. And we're just like so thrilled to have you here. No, I'm as delighted that delighted to be invited. This is great. Couldn't have done it without you. We, frankly, would not have done it without you. Yeah. We would have called off the whole project. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. We would have waited for the 50th anniversary, you know, podcasting from the crypt. Guys, far away. May it have already made me cry. Oh, man. It's going to be good. It's been five years, though. Oh, my God. I know. But we want to go through your journey, learn more about your fandom, your relationship to the films, how you think about the legacy of this movie, your relationship to the books, all of it. But we want to quickly orient the bad babies, viewers, listeners of the pod, remind them which slice of story we're actually going to be diving into in our superlatives today. We have the minute marks from the extended editions. Remember, it's only the extended edition. Nothing we acknowledge here. Particularly with this one. Yeah. With this first film. That's absolutely amazing. Yeah. In this section, yeah. Absolutely. 15 minutes and 10 seconds. This is very normal and fine. Two, 43 minutes and 48 seconds. Yeah. That is the slice that we are covering today. So basically, Gandalf's going up to the front. What's the term in that second mark? Uh, no. I, so it was based off of my DVDs, but Mallory noted that it's like, might be a few seconds off. Basically, they still, the HBO max, whatever trail, whatever show they're promoting at the time. The seconds might shift by. Fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was like, wait a minute. There's literally one line that's a second after. Yeah. Yeah. It's basically until, it's basically until Sam and Fred are like all alone on their journey. Understood. Okay. They swapped in the Gilded Age promo and then the seconds were off by a few. But yeah. I'm going off on my DVDs, but they're like, stay solid. So. Very good. Okay. As you know, oh, the greatest DVD set of all time. Oh, my God. That set. Yes. That looked like the book. Yeah. Yeah. With all the dependencies. It really does look like the Leafs of the pages. Yeah. That was just. Yeah. That was just the book of the teacher's epic. Glorious. I know. We were lamenting this last episode. The 4K. It's, you have to have it. You have to get all of the new prints. But it's, it's not the same as that really robust special edition. It just isn't. Well, I don't know. And are all those appendices even on some of the, I was, I saved them for that reason. Yeah. On there, which is, no, some of them, I also have it purchased digitally through, I purchased it so many times. This is like, oh, my God. I have it all the time. I've purchased the Beatles albums. It's the same thing. Yeah. But on the, on like iTunes, where I also have it purchased, they have some of the appendices are. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. I think I have this somewhere on VHS fellowship. I'm just throwing out. Wow. That's the double VHS. Wow. Real epic. Wait, do you remember where the split is? It's also a Rivendell split. I think it's, I think it's, where are we going? I think that's where they tend to be. Oh, yeah. I mean, just like, just like our promos for this podcast. Exactly. Two of the great installments in media history, the original VHS, the fellowship with the ring and the 90 second trailer we made for this podcast. That would have been like the very waning days of VHS. Yeah. I, I don't know why, but when I went to college, I took a little like 13 inch TV. You remember those little guys? And it had a tape deck in it. So I brought a few VHS tapes with me in a fellow, the fellowship was one, but then I brought my PlayStation 2, so I could also play DVDs and play Madden. You got to love a double VHS and like forever enshrined in your mind like where those movie split like Titanic or something like that. Oh, yeah. Okay. Here's my question for you, right? A couple questions. I don't know. Mallory, you were giving me, sorry. Mallory was going to about to give her recap of the 15. Oh, sorry. Let's, let's, let's flip the order today. Okay. Let's just, let's talk about your relationship with Lord of the Rings or whatever you're going to ask. And then before we get to our superlatives, we'll do the recap. Okay. So this is, uh, this is our speak friend and enter. This is our Brian Cogman, get to know you and your fandom stretch here. Yeah. What's your relationship to Lord of the Rings and maybe specifically this movie? Okay. So Lord of the, I remember reading that an, and now I was at Juilliard and, uh, flex. Yeah. Flex. Yeah. Flex. Flex. Flex. Flex. It did nothing for me. We've already heard your accent work. Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the, that's where I finally get to use my training. Um, but no, they, I remember, uh, they announced the movies. Yeah. And I had not read the books, um, I'd, of course, heard of them, but I never read the books. And, uh, I remember my classmate, Lee Pace was very excited. All right. I already need a break. And so he was, you've never read Lord of the Rings, you have to read Lord of the Rings. And I said, okay. I remember reading the Hobbit anyway, he, he lent me his childhood copy of the trilogy, which is still my copy of the trilogy. Unbelievable. I've never given it back to him. I feel like he has enough Lord of the Rings swag, where I don't have to, but if you could, do you feel like I'm keeping the elk? Uh, I don't know. Maybe a miniature. I've been to his house since he shot, he had some, he had some stuff. The throne. Yeah. I don't think, I don't remember the throne. I feel like I remember the, uh, he definitely had some cool shit. Uh, I don't remember. Do you think he just, do you think he just puts on the robes and wanders around and swishes this leaf? I mean, one should, I think it would be silly if he didn't, but yeah, so Lee, if you're listening, I still have it. And I'm not, I'm not going to give it back because I'm very, I mean, I can call and tell to listen. Maybe, uh, Lee, if you'd like to ever join us here in the house, I think he's shooting the new one. I mean, yeah. I think he's. I think that's where he is. There he is. Is shooting the new one. I, I believe. Oh, my God. I think they're shooting that right now. I'm sure they'll bring back the elk. Why would you bring him back without the old genuinely like my favorite shot of the Hobbit is him like turning around. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah. So he was excited about it. And he told, and he gave me his copy and I, I'm going to say he gave it to me. He didn't let it to me. And, uh, I started reading it. And so I read, I think I read, I definitely got through the first book before the first movie came out. And I eventually read the whole thing. And I think I went back in the completeness to me, started with the Hobbit side of it. And of course, loved it. Um, and loved, it's funny that you, um, ask me to do this one because I loved concerning Hobbits. Like I really loved that section. Yeah. I remember thinking, oh, the deep, just loving the detail and just the fact that we're going hard on the, you know, the, the, the, yeah, well, in just the historical, yeah, like we're learning about all these guys and, and, and before we even start the story, which I, I love that kind of thing. So, um, I remember seeing the movie in New York with my brother, my brother, Mark. And I remember, uh, we were watching it and loving it. And I remember it was after the cave troll scene where I, we looked at each other and it was just the sort of wordless, like we're watching one of the greatest movies of all time right now, kind of moment, which you really have, but that's like seared in my brain, like after the cave troll and looking and being like, we just never, I'd never seen anything like it. Um, and remember, and remember being just exhausted by the end and couldn't believe we had to wait another year for the, for the next one and, you know, what sweet summer children we were so spoiled. I know, right? I know, right? I know. A whole year. A whole year. Now it's like next week, you get five, five different kinds of whatever it is you want. Um, but there was something lovely about that. Um, so, yeah. And then every, and then the extended edition, I think the extended edition came out out within the year, because I have a memory of watching the extended edition at home before a midnight showing of two towers. Or maybe it was a turn of the king. - Maybe. - But they definitely had released the extended, but I don't think they waited to the whole trilogy was over. - Yeah. No, because when you listen to some of the commentaries, they're like, oh, when you get to the third home, like, et cetera, et cetera. - And the third film even, in fact, yes, I remember the second movie mentioned stuff that is only referenced in the extendants. - Right. Oh, okay. - I forget what it is, but there's some line where I remember thinking, oh, if you hadn't watched the extended, you wouldn't-- - Yeah, no, that's reference, yeah. - November 2002, so the November before the-- - Okay, there you go. So the extended, I mean, I think I saw the theatrical cut twice in theaters, and then from then on, I've only watched the extendant. - Yeah, that's right, of course. That's the appropriate and only acceptable. - Yeah, oh, you know what, I'm wrong. I did watch the theatrical a few couple of years ago. I was introducing my kids to it and thought, well, that's really long. Maybe I should, and then I turned it off about half an hour in and was like, never mind, we're going back, we're gonna, (laughs) 'cause especially this section was, I forgot how good it is in the theatrical. - It is, it is. I mean, what's your three hours? Why not three hours? - You might as well gun it, yeah, right? - When somebody really boxed at the runtime in the extended editions, especially for fellowship, you could just say, once again, stay tuned for 20 minutes of credits, you know? And you should watch them all too, but stay tuned for our guests next week. We'll have this conversation with them. They only watched the theatrical edition. - What? - We'll talk about it. - No, no, no, no, no. 'Cause they have, they've seen the extended editions? - Yeah, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're a great person, and this is their one flaw. - All right, well. - Mallory Ruben, I do have another question to provide, but go ahead and hit us with the recap first, and then I will ask her. - Sure, oh, absolutely, let's do it. Let's do it. They're in back again, film recap. (dramatic music) - Incredible stuff. - Oh, that was, yes, that was great. (laughing) I thought we were about to watch a film recap. - No, no, no. These are just our transition graphics. - Like, like, like, I was like, where do we recap? (laughing) - All right, 15 minutes. - The first 15 that we didn't do. - Exactly, that's more said now. - Okay, that is more said now. - Hopefully everybody has watched the, the prior, you know, "The Plus Hour" podcast on those 15 minutes of movie and to, uh, to chapters the book. Here's what we're talking about today. - Okay. - 15 minutes, 10 seconds to 43, 48. Here we go. Gandalf pulls up to bag end. Where Bilbo's hiding out from his greedy relations, brew in a cuppa, and, like yours truly, after being served another bam-freel on Instagram, longing for the mountains, and some peace so that he can finish his book. Gandalf and Bilbo talk about Frodo. Rip some bong hits. And then it's time for Bilbo's 111th birthday. Gandalf's fireworks are not the only magic trick. Our boy Bilbo puts himself on blast on main. Pop it on the ring, vatishing from view. Gandalf has some notes on Bilbo's three atrex, his pet names for the ring. And, uh, the accusations that Bilbo has hurled at him, swelling to a positively barred derr-esque stature before gently cradling Bilbo in his arms. Real swing there, real swing, you know? He gives him feedback, he nurtures. - He did it too. - He did it all. - Bilbo, these are how our annual-- - It is, it's like an insight into the planning behind here at the house of our. Bilbo finally drops the ring. Departs, singing a road tune. - Little walkin' song, we'll hit that. - But Gandalf's worries are here to stay, folks. He stops muttering. - I'm precious, precious, precious. - Surgles in the dark, - Surgles in the dark. - To himself just long enough to encourage Frodo to drop the ring into a super secure, parchment on floor. - Yes, yep. Good. - He has some notes. - It's fine. It's fine. And then ride some off, honestly, to do some pot prep. Relatable content right there from our guy Gandalf. He finds a still-dores account, but the enemy has found something too. Gollum, who's inane, babble. You know, I love that. Never miss a chance to say it inane, babble. Includes a map quest path for the Nazgul right to the Shire. The ring race right out, and they scare a dog. - Yeah, they also cut a dude in half, but I mean, come on. That was Mark's death about the dog I was. I'm sorry. - Wow. - Frodo enjoys what he does not know will be his last night at the pub with his pals. - Returns to back end to find Gandalf ready to test the ring. Bad news, which you probably already have figured out if you booted up a film called The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring. This is, in fact, the one race is the bummer. Speaking of bummers, the spirit of Saron has endured hate when that happens. The ring wants to be found, and it can't stay here. Gandalf passes his temptation test. Frodo passes a test that he never could have dreamed of receiving. He packs, he readyes to take the ring away, but he won't be doing it alone. Because thankfully, our beloved Samwise Gamji was, in fact, drop in some eaves. - Let's go. That is the way we were talking about today. - Sorry, for you as always. - Fabulous. - So my question for you, Brian, is why does this section of the story, if you're Peter Jackson, and you're trying to figure out how to tell this story, there's a lot from the book that's sliced out of this that Mal and I will have talked about in the book section, like a lot of the conversation that happens in Moria, this megal-deagle-back story, all that stuff happens in the section of the book. So as Peter is sort of slicing and dicing, and Fran, and Philip are slicing and dicing, figure out what to put where. Why is Philbo's party this time in the shower, this time at the pub, et cetera, et cetera? Why is this important for the story that they're trying to tell? - Well, it's a masterful adaptation. I mean, I really, that really kind of hit me this time when I was just concentrating on that section. I think they made a very smart choice in focusing on, what are they leaving behind, and accelerating the momentum of the story so that the stakes are physical and present. So I think by, and then very cleverly, as you said, like finding places elsewhere in the adaptation to convey certain backstories and things. But the thing that really struck me was, and this comes from the fact that Jackson was a, you know, up until this point, a direct known as a director of horror movies and thrillers. The, really the whole, the whole first section of the movie is cut like a, like a thriller. You know, I remember it was marketed that way. I remember the first trailer for this movie, really emphasized the scary stuff. It emphasized the Nas-Goole. It emphasized, it ended with, you know, not nearly frightened enough. You know, like, it was, it was sort of selling it more as a kind of scary movie. I think because probably marketing was afraid of trying to sell a sword and sword tree movie because they weren't successful at that time. - Listening to the actor commentary on this section, you know, there's the part where, um, Frodo goes like, "No one knows it's here." - Okay. - Do they get help? Do they, anyone who turns around his eyebrows are furrowed and on the actor commentary, Elijah's like, they're like, they use that every trail of Elijah's like, "I'm so sick of that." - Yeah. - Out of myself. - That was the big, that was the big trail moment. - Yeah, it was, do they get help? - Yeah, it was, but that's, so that really struck me is, and a lot of that is, and I think we're getting the adaptation stuff later. So maybe I'll save this for them. But, but what struck me most is, is ultimately, if they've a very short amount of time to, in the scheme of things, to convey kind of how, what he's leaving behind and what they're fighting for. And a big part of that is in the section that you already discussed, which is only in the extended edition, which is, Ian Holmes wonderful concerning Hobbits kind of montage thing. But here, just the, just the depiction of the party and the, and the camaraderie and that scene in the pub, which is also just in the extended edition, and just the sort of easy country pastoral life that they have. And, but in many ways, what I, what I love about it is, and this is where Ian McKellen, you know, so much of why Hobbiton and the Shire is wonderful, is conveyed through Gandalf's love of it. And the way he is with Bilbo and with Frodo and with everybody and the way he, you can tell that like he has a tough life and has had a long journey and this is a place that just eases his mind and, and, and, and warms his heart. And so, just the way he is with them weirdly, the sort of delicacy of, and the, and the sort of, the way he's tickled by them and, and, and, and so, endeared to them, it does as much even as, as, as the, as the Four Hobbits, you know, having their little John T. Songs and then, and then Eliza, Eliza would really strut me to just the sort of, just the simplicity, just the innocence of the performance. It's so wonderful. It's so unaffected, it's so just, I mean, those eyes, just do, I mean, this is where film, you know, I mean, this is where the casting is so brilliant. Like, you just see that face and it's all I got to do is just do that and get on that face for five seconds and we've got it. So, so that, the humor and the sort of warmth of all that is there, but what's great about it is, and this is where the thriller director comes in, is throughout the entire sequence, even the funny stuff, there is this simmering, dread underneath that pops in at various moments. and again, McIntyre. Helen is sort of Gandalf is our guide through it and how he's reacting and noticing and finding things and just the POV of everyone and how they're observing each other, all those little silent moments behind the lines does so much. And the beauty of it is you don't really notice. I mean, I was paying attention to it 'cause I knew I'd be talking about it. But you really don't even notice it. It's just part of the fabric of the thing. But tough to do. I mean, you know, that book, it's probably, I suspect the hardest of the, was probably the hardest of the free to adapt just from a pure kind of just, how do I distill this standpoint? - Two towers and we're turning to the king or so muscular and sort of like. - Yeah, but then the story's going, you know? And they obviously did the brilliant thing of kind of blending them together because they're sort of happening simultaneously. Those two books, but this one's got so much set up and so much lore that, I mean, I think the adaptation is one of the great feats of adaptation. - I wanted to ask you one more question, which is like, you know, I'm not, I promise I'm not like trying to make like a sweaty connection between this and Game of Thrones, but sometimes people who work on shows say things to me about how they construct story and it sticks with me forever and the thing that you told me once about the pilot of Game of Thrones and how it was just like to one old friend going to another old friend's house for dinner, that that's what the pilot of Game of Thrones is. I think about that all the time and what you told me about like sort of what, you know, and so thinking about the starts and all together and Winterfell for the last time and thinking about the hobbits altogether at the pub for the last time in this way. And I was just thinking a lot about that about like setting up a story and setting up the stakes and setting up what's worth fighting for, what's worth defending this ideal of Winterfell that will maybe never live again, but like it's important for us to be at that dinner to see, you know, a food fight or whatever the case may be. You know, that more innocent times that we can then hold that in our hearts and minds as something worth defending as we go forward into a scarier world, you know what I mean? - Yeah, I mean, that's, that's, that was the show. I mean, you know, the, the, the, the starts in Winterfell. And we never, it's funny, we never, we never discussed, I don't remember ever discussing openly the parallels of the starts in Winterfell and the hobbits of the shire. I'm sure George consciously knew that. I mean, we all know that he wrote the, he wrote the dire walls being discovered in the snow scene first without even knowing what it was. And then, ooh, that gets me every time. I even just say that and then went back and figured out what the world was and then picked up the narrative again. So it was certainly our, our North Star when we were doing the show was, I mean, obviously, you have, you have Danny's storyline and you have Terrians that are sort of their own B plots, the wrong word. Like the other, the other main thrust of it is sort of the, you know, the villains fam, the villainous family that actually, oh, maybe they're not villainous. And then Danny's, you know, exile coming back story. But then otherwise, really the core spine of it was this family that was fractured and how many of them are gonna make this through? Are they ever gonna get home? What will home be when they get home? - Yeah. - Who will they be? It will they be any semblance of themselves? You know, and, and it's funny. We talk about the pilot, you know, I remember we added a scene that isn't in the book to introduce them all just because, again, when you're adapting something for television, the original pilot didn't have a scene where the entire family was kind of interacting with each other. - Right. - So we added that scene where the boys are doing target practice in Arya, you know, that was a late ad in the pilot. Just to give the audience more scenes with them, you know, interacting at home because they're actually weren't that many in the original scripts. It was more about kind of Robert and all that stuff. So anyway, that was, yeah, I've talked about this a lot of times, but that, that, when, when they all said goodbye in episode two of Thrones, that was when I remember watching the rough cut of that episode and going, "Oh, we got it, we've got the show." Because I, we love this family. - Yeah. - And so, yeah, I, I think, I think with Lord of the Rings, you know, they, they tell it the shire and the, and unless they're hands, that would just be kind of lip service. Like, he does such a great job and the music's a huge part of this too. - Yeah. - I mean, that shire theme, you know, when it kicks in and, you know, Remy did the same with the Stark theme in our show, like that motif when it kicks in. You just know what it is and your heart just fills up. - Yeah. - And, and that amazing set, you know, it's just, it's, but that's, again, why I love the extended addition so much is it really, really takes the time to orient you there in a way that, but, but, but, but, if it never just, but it's not just, it's not corny. It's, it's got a little ledge to it. And there's always that threat of the evil, pretty much from the beginning. I mean, it kind of starts, it hits the ground running with, with, with the, with the creeping dread. Even sooner than I remembered it, probably. - Yeah. - We talked about this last pod joke called out, you know, the, the initial, very early glimpse of, of Bilbo fretting and worrying about where the ring is. Yeah, before, because when you're revisiting the book, you know, there's so many, obviously, we start to get this in this stretch that we're covering with the ring race riding in and looking, Shire Baggins. But, you know, the hissing, obviously, the first glimpse of the, the bloody hoof, like actively terrifying. But, you know, the book is peppered with so many more mentions of strange folk about the journey, West, and movement through the land. And so, yeah, the different ways that they convey that in the film, early, obviously, like when you get something, like the whisper of the ring for the first time, like embedded under Frodo's speaking. - Mm-hmm. - It's like a dark heartbeat, it goes like, "Speak up at one point." - Well, that's what's crazy is, the ring is the scariest thing in the movie. - Yeah, absolutely. - That's what, so, I mean, it's scarier than the ring race riding in slow-mo. No question. - Which is a stonch. - I don't know the Nazgol, really. - Not for me, that ring, because it's just a ring. - Exactly. - And it shouldn't be terrifying. - The race are nakedly, clearly terrifying. - Yeah. - And they are terrifying. But, the fact that the way that you lose yourself. - Well, this is the way that it influences behavior. And, in home, you know, again, in just a very short amount of time, conveys so much, you know, - This isn't an incredible billbo. - What that addiction is. - Yeah. - It is the billbo. - Absolutely. - It is. - And even for the one character who is able to actually, like, yeah, at a hard time, but drop it and walk away. You still see even him, what it did to him in the will of the ring. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Two things I want to say, one is on the horror front. Like, you know, all the like, in a Nazgol interstitial, which doesn't necessarily make a ton of sense, because they're like right around the corner. It feels like they're too close to whatever. The thing that really doesn't make sense, in a way, I don't mind, is like, when a photo comes home and get off is there, but like, the windows open and the place looks like it's been ransacked, and it's like there to make you feel like the grid is there, but I'm like, I'm like, what was Gandalf doing? Like, throwing up the windows. - Well, he might have been looking for the ring. - Yeah, but like, through the windows. But, yeah, yeah, I'm staring at him on the sill. - Checking the papers, but also we've seen that guy try to navigate back in. - He can't turn or reach him out. - He's probably not. - He's probably going to knock some shit out. - You're right. - He threw it out the window. - He popped out like Alice getting too big for the house and just like popping up. - But I know you said that because it's never anything ideologically clocked. It really just is, this needs to be scary. - And you know. - And so let's scare it up a bit. - Did they get there, are they waiting? - Yeah, it's fascinating. It's, that's funny that you mentioned that, 'cause it never occurred to me. Like yeah, why would, it's open? 'Cause it just, you need that moment. But yeah, that's, and that's why it works. I mean, the movies don't, they don't feel like stately, epics. They, they feel very personal. They're very intense. There was a lot of close-ups. I hadn't, I hadn't, I hadn't, I'm actually remembered. He loves his zooms in, you know. But you feel, it's, it's very intimate. You know, very intimate, you know. In a way that I hadn't, hadn't really remembered until this last little rewatch of this section. - Yeah, I love in this stretch in particular, the number of times that we are right up on Gandalf's face. Because of what you were, you know, mentioning earlier the, we'll see everything passing across his mind, all of the considerations, all of the calculations mounting, worry, a brief moment of reprieve before the crushing realization kicks in. Again, just, just a glance, or a furrow. - Estonishing. - For both Ian's, for McKellen and home, and for Elijah's-- - For both Ian's, yeah. For Elijah as well, there's several moments where, to your point about intimacy, it's not just a close-up in a scene, it's usually a close-up, like, where their shoulder is turned to the person they're in the scene with. So it's just like, what's happening on Bilbo's face? That Gandalf can't see, but he can sense. And then especially when Bilbo turns around and is like, "Oh, you know my life." - Well, and they use the crazy height difference to such great effects. - Yes, yes. - I mean, when you are, you know, you're either looking up, or you're looking down, and you're right in the POV of the characters. And that's strange difference in their stature's, really plays very well, especially in those sort of thrilling moments, like the "Is it Secreted and Safe" when you go to the scene. - Yeah, yeah. - And-- - That's a moment of movie history, I'm just testing questions. - And you feel-- - I'm just asking questions. - Like you're them, you know? I mean, it's really incredible. - Yeah, Jackson has talked about how, especially in the "Bag and Scenes," how important it was to nail back, that sort of forced perspective, all of those sides. Different things, 'cause he's like, we felt like if we really sold it here at the beginning, we wouldn't have to try so hard later. And like later in the movie, there are moments with like the doubles of the hobbits who are like, that looks a little silly, but you've already just like watched Gandalf hand his hat and his staff to Bilbo, which Peter Jackson has said is one of the hardest shots they did 'cause they basically had to like, digitally blend the size of the hat and the staff as it's being passed. 'Cause there's other things that they did with just like physical trickery of like, the split table in Bilbo's kitchen. And like the teapot on the lid on the teapot, it's like Ian McKellen is putting that on a dowel that's on a different table than the teapot actually is that Ian home is pouring the tea into. So like that stuff is hard enough, but like handing a hat and a staff from one person to another, or we talked about this previously, but like the way they had to double every, every single prop, every single set. But hearing them talk about how they had to make sure that the weave of the fabric was different or the grain of the wood was proportionately larger or smaller, do you know what I mean? Like, how granular that? So I'm just like, this button is this big and this button is this big. It's like the weft, the weave and the weft of the cloth has to be straight. Yeah, the angles and those details and the kind of texture that you take for granted when you just walk around and navigate your everyday life, though not anymore as you try to figure out like if a photo is made by an eye, we've stopped taking that for granted actually, harrowing, but those are the details that make something feel tangible and real and consistent shot to shot. I love what you're saying about like the way that comes into play with maybe someone over a shoulder because it feels very emblematic of the way that the craft and the filmmaking and the set deck and the props, all of it, like the level of care and obsessive devotion. Not further heightens and unlocks some sort of thematic richness, right? Like it's a little bit of the not to go all like hot saran who fucks, you know, all rings of power, but it's the alloy, right? Like it's the mix of the metals and the ingredients that actually can amplify that effect. So it is one of the great joys of, I think why the movie so obviously impactful the first time but why people never tire of watching it. Obviously so much of that is about the richness of and the university of the universality of the story that we all love returning to, but the movies hold up as works of art and art. - Oh yeah, well the texture is, yeah, the texture of it is, it is a reason everyone goes and visits that hobbit village of what, you know, every time we're going to do it. - Are you going to go? - Yeah, we're going to go. We've just decided have we gotten the trip formally approved? - No, we haven't. - Well, I mean, you were trying, I think it should be, like whoever's in charge of that. - Okay, right, 2028, New Zealand 2028. - Yeah. - That would be amazing. - Let's do it, you want to come, you want to come? - I'm sure. - Okay, great, it's on the bus. - Yeah, I can come through, yeah. - Let's do it. - I've always wanted to go. I've never been to New Zealand or-- - Let's do it. - We have to go. - Okay, great. - I'm part of the world. - I mean, we have to. - That would be a dream. - Should we do ours, the Berlin, what do you mean? - Let's do it. Yeah, anything just about me else. - Yeah, overall the legacy of the trilogy of this movie 25 years later before we die further. - Oh, I mean, you want to say? - You know, at this point, it's just, it's, well, I will say this is my favorite one of the three. - Yeah, right, me too. - By, probably I country my, and I love two towers in return of the King, but this is the one I want to live in. - Me too. - I don't, you know, this is the Gandalf, I love, you know. - Conversations in rooms. - Yeah, it's conversation rooms. It's more of that, it's, as you know, I love that stuff and Sean, of course, in this, and it's just, it's the one, you know, the only thing I want more of is Gollum, who I'll get later in other movies. But this is one of the greatest movies I've ever made. And so, you know, you can never tire of it. I mean, I really wanted to watch the rest yesterday and I just couldn't, I was like, I have to turn off. I have to, I've worked to do. - I have a question for you. - So I'm sad to hear that Shire Baggins is not enough Gollum for you. Do you have a Gollum impression? - Oh, sure. - What is it exactly? - Oh, gosh, I would need to, I would need to, stupid, stupid fat habits. - Oh, that's really good. - Who's Sean, Sean, on the process? - Wow. - Gonna be hard to talk. - Oh, man, tough news for everybody else. - Yep, who's joining us for the show. - I definitely have to. - I'm gonna do that in question. - Oh, yeah. - I think you might win. - I'm intrigued by this movie they're making. - Oh, sure. - I mean, I guess it's, it's this part of the movie. - That's right. - It's where he was. - Yeah. - That's right. - That's cool. - Yeah. - Can't wait. I mean, I'm apprehensive. I'm excited and apprehensive. Because like, you know, they've recast Aragorn great. - Yeah, I'm excited. - Well, you know, whatever. But then I just feel like, I have apprehension around digitally, you know. So like, Elijah Wood is here to play Fredo. And I understand that Elijah Wood is like. - I don't know that, I don't know the same age. - I don't know that they're gonna have to do much. - He looks the same age. - He's like, Helen is, like, you know, like, they're gonna have to do a, like Elijah Wood looks amazing. He doesn't look 17, which is how he was when he started filming these movies. - My question is, like, the real life version, though, of they're like-- - I think he's got an age to do, yeah. - You have an age to do, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because, well, and also, that's, well, this is more, I think, 'cause we're, superlives is an adaptation. Okay, we'll talk about that. - Okay. - I'm excited, let's do it. - Superlives time, it is a gift. (dramatic music) - First time hearing that, love it, great. - You'll cannot wield it. (laughing) - That's my favorite error going online. (laughing) - Oh, god, I love the impressions. Finding out that Sean was reading that line off his knee. - No, I didn't know that. - Yeah, that he had it in the next card on his knee. - Nice. - And you can kind of, see him look down. He's like, "It is thinking." - Awesome. - That's really good. - I mean, the way they're kidded out, like, those characters in particular could have done like, "You really could do that, I think." - Yeah. - Oh, how funny. - Okay, we're gonna go through our superlatives, as a reminder to everyone listening. In theory, all of our picks will come from the slice of movie we're talking about today. If you want to use this as an opportunity to, you know, toast something else that you're not gonna have an opportunity to talk about. - And hear to the rules. - Okay, great, great. - Otherwise, I'd just be here all day. - I hear the best. - I'm talking about the movie. - That would be great too. - Now it would also be great. Okay, first up, we're starting with the really important stuff. - Yeah, the deep day. This is a podcast in pursuit of scholarship and intellectual rigor. - Yeah. - Fit check. (laughing) - Right. - The drip lord of this section, favorite fit in this stretch of movie. - I gotta say, it's probably, it's a probably Elijah Wood's party vest. - It's great. - I just think he looks great. - Dancing in his little hornpipe. - Yeah, he looks great. It's that beautiful, you know, it's sort of, what is it? I'm kind of a reddish, brownish kind of vest. - Memory serves? - Can I tell you a quote I found in this sort of readers' companion of fellowship that I was reading yesterday. Tolkien himself, after the success of the Lord of the Rings, was able to indulge in a personal taste and fancy waist coats. - Mm-hmm. - I mean, Hulkins like, it's my time now. - Good. - Hulkins like, it's my time now. - Good. - I'm gonna give it to another party outfit, which is, Samwise Gamgee with his like, white crisp, hauler shirt by all the way up. - Yes. - And he just looks, like he just looks like he tried so far. - He dressed hard to look nice for Roy Scott. - That's a great, you know. - That is a great observation. You're absolutely right. He's, he's a little more dressed up for the party. - Yeah. - So he can, that's good. That's, that's, that's, that's character through costume. That's great. - Love Sam. He's the best. - That's great. - I'm also going with a Frodo pack. I am going with Frodo's first road fit. - Yeah. - When he very quickly, he's, it is, I found it. - And then the shot where he's all. - Exactly, exactly. - There you go. - He puts the coat on, the hood, the cloak. He grabs his walking stick, I always, I get like a chill when he just tucks the ring into the little brass pocket. And then he has that, he's ready, and he looks, he's got the pack on, and when I see that, when he gets dressed to head out. And then before, it's one of those moments where we hear the live. Fellowship more than maybe any movie in the world. I think just to hear the line before the characters. - Yes. - Like it's just, I think we could all probably recite this movie from, from memory. It's one of the most quotable movies. It's this stretch in particular. I can't wait to get to our. I can't wait to see our lines, section. But you can feel the second Gandalf looks down at him. And it's such a tense moment, but he smiles. And that's when he says, my dear Frodo, not that it's really our amazing creatures. And it's just like, he looks like an anxious parent who just watched his kid walk into school and say, like, it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be hard, but it's gonna be okay. It's just a beautiful moment, I love it. I love hearing all the stories of like, who had books on set and who didn't. Like Vigo already always had his books on set. And Ian McKellen, I mean, obviously, Christopher Lee didn't meet his books, he had it memorized. But like, Ian McKellen always had his books on set. And that apparently that section where he's like my dear Frodo and talks him about Hobbits is something that like from the book that he was like insisted they put back in that wasn't in and he really fought for it. - Oh, it's kind of the whole thing. - I mean, it's almost impossible to think of a version of the adaptation that doesn't have that they can still see. - It's kind of the whole thing. - Yeah. - Yeah. - This was a group project, this was a real group project. - I mean, it was a whole thing though. - That goes all the way to, you know, gentlemen, you bow for no one, I don't know, and I mean, you know, wow. - Let's see how many episodes that line comes up on this Super Two for two. - It's in gentlemen, you bow to them. - I would say, I haven't done a formal tally, but I'd say it's a leading contender in the which more of the rings moment. - Oh, that destroys me. - Instagram post so far. There are a lot of comments about that. - I just, I don't know. There's something about that. Even earlier, in this movie where he's like, "Gentlemen, I don't know why I like that so much." - I mean, it's all perfect. - It's horrible. - Next, yeah. The POTATO's award for the most. You're catching line delivery. Now you could take this how you want. It can be just like splendent and mesmerizing. It could be unhinged. - Why do you say like that? It could be why do you say like that? - Yeah. - You have other line moments. - We do. - Right. Oh, I remember what this one was. Oh, it's this, oh, it's some. - Today's my hundred and you never give a say. - Yeah. (laughing) - That's the greatest, slightly drunk line reading of all time. - Incredible. - Or slightly high. - Oh my God. - Maybe he's both. - Exactly. - I mean, just, you know, come on. - How do you love it? - This is a whole speech. - Smash. - You know, it's fantastic. (laughing) But again, then it turns. - Oh, yeah. - Then it's, you know, I've got things to do. - Yeah, right. - I mean, it's just, it's so, just, Jackson and Fran and Phillip, like they get you kind of comfortable and then pull the rug out, you know? It's great. - They also said that Ian Home is like incredibly good at ADR. And that day when he had to try to ADR that speech, he just like couldn't do it because of like the sluriness of it and he's like, can you just fix it? I can't do it. That's great. - I'm going with a Gandalf line. I wonder if I'll pick a Gandalf line for every episode where he's eligible for this. It's possible. This is one of my favorites. Mary Addock Brandy Book and Peregrine Tuck. But specifically, I might have known. It's just the way he says I might have known when he catches them with the fireworks. It's just perfect. I love it. And of course, it's fun on the adaptation front 'cause that's of course a tweak like Gandalf was the one who's like, let's do a dragon firework, not like busting them in action and heightening their troublemaker status there. It does a lot, but I just love the way he says I might have known. Did anyone consider picking here? Don't! And then the like 45 seconds pause before he says tempt me. - Well, it might be later. - Okay. - It might be later. - Fantastic. All right, we're swinging here into emotion. Most emotional moment. - Oh, which is your pick was also a la- - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. - Most emotional moment. - You know, for, it's funny. I thought about this one. I think for me, it's, it's when he's, is when Gandalf says goodbye to, to Bilbo. I think it's, goodbye. Yeah, Bilbo. And he does a little wink. And it's just, you don't need three habit movies. I mean, that's all there. I mean, it's, the fact that they manage in that scene in performance and in adaptation to get you the entire thing you needed from the prequel into it is, is incredible. Their chemistry is just off the charts. So yeah, I've thought of it ending for my book and that whole goodbye, you know what I'm saying. Oh, you will, a friend. - Yeah, I will. - When he kind of gets down to his, gets on his knee to get eye to eye with him. - Yeah. - In that moment, it's perfectly staged, perfectly performed. - I love it. - Yeah, I think that's probably my, of this section. - And one of the things I'm already having, I mean, no surprise, so much fun. The project, the pod doing this is like the way that all these picks connect across. Like hearing you say that, then it makes me think back to, of course, that history with Bilbo is on Gandalf's mind when he's looking down at Frodo hitting the road. How could it not be? I mean, maybe now he's thinking about Nory too, right? We just keep kind of deepening and enriching our understanding of. - Oh, sorry, two seconds. I was like, Nory, oh yeah. - Out of the hard foot. No hard foot, sorry. - That's the reason three rings of power. So we have to bring him off when we can. - Oh, we can't. - We can't, we can't. - Oh, we have to bring him off when we can. - We can't. - I don't know. - Great news for Chris Ryan, you know. He doesn't. I don't care for them. - He just gives the hobbits, he needs the whole thing. And I don't want to talk about it. Don't bring it off. All right, Joe, what is your most emotional moment? Okay, this is a stretch. - This is what I was seeing that it's not a theatrical cut. And it's when Bilbo and Frodo are hiding from the sacked Bill Baggins is at the party. And Bilbo says. - That's not the theatrical cut. - He says, I'm very selfish, you know. Yes, I am very selfish. I don't know why I took you in after your mother and father died, but it wasn't out of charity. I think it was because of all my numerous relations. You're the one that showed real spirit, right? And then Frodo goes, Bilbo, have you been at the gaffer's home brew? And Bilbo says, no. Well, yes, that's not the point. And then this is it, this is it. The point is Frodo, you'll be all right. Right, so this, so this scene between them, which is the only scene they share until Rivendell and was not in the theatrical cut. So there is no Frodo and Bilbo scene. - That's madness. - Nothing to complain about. - That's the scene in the theatrical cut. - I can't. - And this adaptive change of like Frodo doesn't know Bilbo is going, 'cause in the book Frodo knows that this is Bilbo's whole like joking plan and whatever. He doesn't know. And so this is Bilbo like saying goodbye, like you'll be all right. - That's a great change. - An earlier, get off his like, he, you know, he cares for you, you know, he's like, he's like, I know in that way that he just like thinks about, he's leaving Frodo, he's not saying goodbye to Frodo formally. And so this is sort of his goodbye. And they'll see each other again in Bermodelle, but he doesn't necessarily know that. - No, that's, I, and it's just like. - Oh, wow. I can't believe that scene. (laughs) - That's a wonderful scene. - I love that pic. At real spirit always gets me. Every time real spirit and that kinship and like the question of why Frodo was his chosen air and the relation and the family, but like the idea that's more present in the books that Bilbo just like doesn't have friends, which is, you know, quite sad. - Yeah. - And that kinship that he feels with Frodo seeing like a like spirit inside of him has just loved that. So Joe, your pic connects to mine. You were just talking about this moment where Gandalf and Bill Doer are talking about Frodo. My pic is from that conversation where Bilbo was saying, you know, I think he would've gone with me if I'd asked, right? And then he says, I think in his heart Frodo's still in love with the shower. - Oh, yes, oh. - The woods, the fields, little rivers, little rivers, absolutely killed me on this rewatch for the show. - Yeah. - I think it's because, you know, when Bilbo's like, I want to see the wild kind of, we see the mountains, I want to see the big wild world and Frodo still loves the little rivers. Like he's, he hasn't gotten a big river. - Big river. - The end of me. - He's not gone to the big river yet. - Yeah, Frodo is a little river. - So I never thought of it until this moment. But you're absolutely right. This is not a main character who dreams of going, Frodo doesn't want to do that. Frodo is fine. - Where he is. - And, which, you know, it's because the bad adaptation, changes Frodo, gives Frodo some scene where he longs to escape. - In the book, like, because it's 17 years, I mean, when Bilbo lives and when Frodo leaves, he is starting to feel that wanderlust of me in the book. - All of the walks I take is a pass. - Oh, okay. - I'm trying to act on that to be honest. - But a lot of it is wrapped up in Bilbo having laughs. - Right, because of this place. And so all of these ideas are so related. Like, the fact that his heart is yearning for Bilbo. And some of that is the idea of an adventure that he hasn't taken that he knows Bilbo has. But it's also like, well, he's gone. We'll definitely get to the 17 year. - Have you all listened to the BBC radio drama from back in the day, where we're home plays Frodo? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Well, I'm really great. And I think just like, you know, this is obviously going to be one of the main throughlines of all of these conversations. We've talked about it a couple of times already today, but like that, you know, what is Frodo leaving behind? You know, we see it. Obviously, when he's dancing at Bilbo's birthday, right? Or when they're at the green dragon sharing their mugs of ale, but like to hear it from Bilbo, the person closest to him, what it would mean to leave this place behind. Especially from Bilbo, you know, we talked about this quote last pod, but the like, you know, the idea that Bilbo, till his last day was astonished that he ever took the adventure in the first place, right? That he joined Thorin's party. He, you know, he knows what it means to leave your comfort behind, to have left your handkerchief back home at bag and get the road. - The great parallel that Tolkien does when he, when, the beginning of the Hobbit is an unexpected party, right? This is like the dwarves dropping out on him. Like this unexpected thing that happens to him, and then this is the long awaited party is what starts the beginning of fellowship with the ring. It's just like a now Frodo like once he gets it, out is a little cloak, he gets his walking stick, like he wants to go, like he's excited to go. He misses the mountains and yeah, that's great. Gandalf taking his, his staff here and the stretch and knocking on the door of Baghan and you think about when he drew the room to mark this as the place for Thorin's meeting. It's like perfect. And yeah, I mean, on the connections front, you can't a moment like, but it cannot stay in the shire. Oh, no, it can't, what must I do? It doesn't, it's still a great moment, but it doesn't land as impactfully as if you, if you haven't heard this line from Bilbo, right? From his own love with the shire. Like you have to feel that to really appreciate what it means for him to be so willing to say, like I'll answer the call, you know, he's eating the call. He, yeah, he rejects it at first, right? He's like, you take it, you take it, get it off. Don't! Dibbed me, dabbed me, the absolute best. Okay, next up. Fuck you on New Zealand. Yeah. Most dazzling display of natural splendor. Is there a visual? I mean, God, I mean, this is obvious choice, but it's that, you know, the wide shot of the shire and Gandalf riding through it. I mean, you know, I mean, it's Hobbiton, yeah. It's the best. I mean, it's just one of the most incredible set designs and use of natural resources to realize a set. I mean, the top five of all time, maybe. Oh, I wonder what it would it would have a case, you know, I mean, it's just iconic just yeah settings. I don't know Yeah, the best you're related do you want to do yours mine? I'll drill in drill down specifically on something we see happen Yeah, in the Shire in Habiton in the stretch one of the most important things. We've ever gotten to glimpses of viewing public and it is Gandalf and Bilbo Just chillin hanging out relaxing on the hill in front of Bagam Smoking their pipe weed as they look out on trees and the lake and the lights and the party tents and then Bilbo's little ring of smoke opening wide and Gandalf sending his I mean kind of like a little gray havens Preview actually sending his ship Wow through a little a little preview of a journey to come. Oh, wow. Never thought of that. That's awesome Love that that's like one of those shots you can smell like you can smell You know when you're outside on the grass at night and like a cool evening. Yeah, not a cold evening But a cool evening and the grass is like wet and lush and you're just like you can smell that smell the pipe smoke and just sort of like Yeah, that and experience that we're going to share together in There it is. Yeah, and we do there at night sounds like I mean it feels like they should Let's find out they must have certain nights where they They must Bilbo party night in Hobbiton. I mean, yeah, they must I may I pay a fortune Because we you're your answer is correct Brian, but because we did honor Hobbit in last time. I'm gonna give it to The first shot of them leaving. It's the it's the dawn sky It's like the clouds of purple the sky is blue and then you get you know One of many like iconic like black outline of them and you know It's Gandalf. It's the horse. It's yes, Frodo. And then it's like keep ups You know like them silhouetted on that. That's a great shot. Radible sky. So shout out Andrew Lesney who's the cinematographer of great shot and a funnier gag for being that shot in silhouette. Yeah Come along stand is funnier. Yeah, yeah, and he's like kind of yeah, yeah, cuz you're yeah, yeah Because you're getting the movement is exaggerated because of the silhouette. Yeah, the comedy even works better with that gorgeous shot The point of his hat. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, silhouette for it's great. That's great. It's great. There's this John how light like just before we leave the shire There's this John how we John how Allen Lee our icons Designers artists who were we're so integral to shaping this movie John how said of of the shire We want to recreate an England that never really existed an England of paradise lost in that sense It's just sort of like this pastoral You know, yeah, make the shire great again. It was never it was never this, but let's just pretend it was the whole thing I mean, it's it's the Europe before second World War. I mean it's But what you know, but what talking things but what you think what you think what he thinks is like Yeah, upbringing in the countryside was before any of the world wars came right that yeah, yeah, yeah Purple sky and black silhouettes if the Ravens were in better shape with a healthier Oster I'd make a connection there but I'm fucking debacle right now Lamar out uninjured reserve again Shout out the Valkyries Congrats, I meant to text you. Thank you. I have no purple sports team to contribute I maybe we'll get you into like TCU horned frogs or something. Okay. Sure, why not? Yeah, actually, yeah, it sounds great. Yeah, I'm a fan. Yeah Okay, I'm related, you know, I'm in I want I want to I want to go to there That is our next category. I want to go to there which element of Hobbit life fantasy life in this stretch makes you most wish You lived in middle earth Anything oh yeah Yeah, this one was a little tougher for me. I it was it's probably that scene that you just referenced It was the it was the sitin it was the sitin on the sitin and smoking the pipe weed and the summary Yeah, I really that was the scene that made me yeah, you know, it made me miss the project for a thing that ever Yeah, it made me miss my childhood in later childhood in New England funnily enough just We just and this isn't even an autumn scene but it made me feel like it made me feel like an autumn night In New England. I miss I miss autumn when I'm here It's sort of autumn me now and that it's 75 degrees I met Fall fall is the season I miss I really miss fall and it's funny because it's not a fall scene, but fall cozy Yeah, cozy, so I think it's that's that scene with the two of them yeah, and like what Joe was saying earlier about how you can smell That scene when I think of all these coasts whether it was growing up in Maryland or when I went to Syracuse sort of New York I can smell the leaves when they turn or like pie I mean my favorite coffee and pie shop in New York when I live there like Yeah, in my mind I only smell it in a three-week stretch and yeah, you know, you know Maryland too. Where'd you grow? I grew up in a raster's town in Northern Baltimore Where about you? Potomac oh delightful. Yeah, and yet you're not a Baltimore Ravens fan. We have some work to do because they were around when I was I was I was I would have been Washington. I would have been we can't have Washington. That's not gonna work. I mean, you know Okay, well spend the painful year there as well. Yeah, did you have a Malay throughout the first pitch? I watched it. I was like my god I know it was special. We did it we hosted the right show. I saw the light. I watched everything. I watch your I'm a fan. That feels like a thousand years ago. It was great. What a time that was man. Joe, what is your I want to go to there from the stretch magical fireworks Oh, sure. I mean, yeah, come on. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you listen to the filmmaker commentary on this stretch, but Peter Jackson is talking about the the Dragon section which we'll talk about elsewhere as well, but like in the commentary, he says the weirdest thing. He says I don't like magic and a fantasy movie and I kind of get what he I think what he means by that is something we talked about last week, which is like that he was interested in telling a history. Yes, Hobbiton is a place that really existed like, you know, you want to feel like you're watching a historical retelling of something or whatever. Yeah, but the sentence I don't like magic and a fantasy movie is just really welcome to hear from you. Yeah, I think I understand. I think it's what he did. Yeah, but I think it's like he likes to grounded in a reality and not have magic kind of just right. Yeah, take you out of it. Like the magic needs to be purposeful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, intentional. I get that. Yeah. Yeah. And in that grounded reality, yeah, that's going to fall onto that ground when indeed, firework tricks, dragon firework, the tree that was really hold up to how well all the effects hold up. Yeah, I mean, you know, I have some notes. Sure, sure. Been a while since I've seen that scene. So maybe it maybe it doesn't. Yeah, this pink expressive face though. Yeah, some textural stuff. Maybe on the skin. Digital double flinging around the back. Oh, sure. Now I'm thinking that scene and I guess to turn to the king with the digital like Alaska. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. My pick here, this was an easy one for me. I think some of these across the run will be just terribly painful and difficult. This one. I was like it's Bilbo running through his larger. I was like, get me there right now. This guy thinks he's out of food. This is what he says. You caught me a bit unprepared. I'm afraid. We've only got only got. Cold chicken and a bit of pickle. There's some cheese here. Oh, no, that won't do. We've got raspberry jam and an apple tart. Thought of you, apple tart. Gross. But delicious. But not much for afters. I'm afraid. Oh, no, we're all right. I've just found some sponge cake and then he's like, I can make you some eggs if you'd like. Incredible. And this is the justy. Yeah. Yeah. The double justy again. Offer ply, which as I mentioned, and Joe knows my husband. In the afternoon, when I'm like, I need my 19th calf caffeine. It's like, what do you want? The snack too? I'm like, justy. We say this in our house all the time. I just love it. Yeah. That's so good. That's a big pantry. I love what Bilbo's like. You're magnifying. Oh, no, no, no, please. Yeah. Oh, Bilbo's larger. It's also the party. I put some baked goods on the table. I don't know. They just smell really good. They smell really good. Yeah, it smells delicious. I can almost grabbing one. Then I don't want like, no, we want to get like camera. We don't need to do that, but it's like, you know, very nice. Yeah, delicious. Yes, that is a, that is a wonderful moment. Just great. Yeah. Yeah. Just so cheesy. I love it. And Frodo later, you know, he's back and he grabbed some apples, like wraps up a loaf of bread. Just let's just look at this time to quickly. Red look at it in a quick, with a quickness. He's like, oh, on a whole loaf. Yeah. Red look at it. I mean, 11 seasons, I can break this and they're not going to make themselves. Also, Gandalf attempts to fold his clothes for him and he just grabs it and throws it in unfolded. Gandalf attempts to help unfold it. I noticed that. I mean, in movie land, we're in a rush, not in the book, but, you know, we don't have time for like packing cubes and compression technology or Gandalf. Okay, from tastes and sights and sounds to, to more sounds, to other sounds. The sure score spotlight, we added this category. We're our second episode, we're already adding categories. It's gonna be fine. We knew, we were talking about the music just naturally a lot last time and we knew we had to get a category in here. So which musical moment from this portion of the film hits the hardest, which bit of score do you love the most? All right, so I have one and then there's another one that's right after the timestamp, but I do want to talk to you. That's all right. So the one the one is um, let's see if I can hum it and see if you know what it is. Okay, great. Well exciting. Oh, you like to - Yeah. - Yeah. - And she's written it pretty similarly. - I didn't. (laughing) - Yeah, the ring slipping out of his hand. - Yeah, yeah, it's the best. - It's, and then the, and this isn't the music, but the landing, not bouncing. - Yeah, yeah, the thunk, the flunk. - The ring, the ring as an object of evil, as an antagonist, is just such a triumph. - The way they talk about how they shot the ring is almost like a two shot of just sort of like, shot, a counter shot of like, Bilbo and the ring, as if they're like in a conversation with each other, or there's like the ring point of view of Gandalf, like walking back in and the rings on the floor, and it's almost like the ring itself is looking up at Gandalf. - Yeah, it's unbelievable. It's like you can see a facial expression. - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I, it's, it's, - A smirk ring. - It's astonishing. - But that, that little music cue. - It's the best. - As it's going down. - Do you wanna hum your one from after the time stand? - I can't hum it because it's, it's, it's, and the reason is the ways I love it is, it's two, it's two themes crossing. So I, I love, I love motifs. I love motifs that tell you about the characters. I love that we did it on thrones. - Yeah. - 'Cause it isn't done enough anymore, and I don't know, it's me when it isn't done. And so I, it's right after our fire little section, but it's when, it's when Ian Holmes, it's going out your door dialogue. And it's the shire theme blending into the fellowship theme. I don't know if it's the first time we hear the fellowship theme, it might be. But we hear the dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, as he and Sam are leaving. The shire and the shire theme is, is, is receiving. - Oh yeah. - And I'd never noticed that the fellowship theme is there. I always in my head thought, oh, the fellowship theme doesn't come until they form the fellowship, it's, it's there. And it must be the first time you hear. - I would have to go back. - I love that. - Imagine you hear, I don't know why you would hear it before. - Yeah, whoo. - Yeah, and I never noticed it. I'd seen this thing a thousand times and that blew my mind. I was like, it's just, it's setting us up for the hero's journey. - Oh man. - Yeah, incredible. - Absolutely incredible. - Chills. - What a score. - What's your pick? Mine is, I will also try to say it and see if you can recognize it. I'm not going to do the words to it though. It goes like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. - Oh yes. It's the black rider. - Yeah, the black riders. - When they first come out of Minnes Moregul and it's so good, it's the London Oratory School School of Boys Choir. - Awesome. - Singing some black speech. And this is what the translation of it. We deny our maker. We cling to the darkness. We grasp ourselves power and glory. Now we come the nine Lords of Eternal Life. - Awesome. - Sick metal. - We deny our maker. That's great. - Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I've heard men are weak men are weak. - That's great, wow. - I have one backup and I'm also going to say it because like this. - Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. It's like a little, it's called Flaming Red Hair. - Flaming Red Hair. It's not by Harrodshorter, though. - So, like, Flaming Red Hair. - Flaming Red Hair. - Flaming Red Hair. - Flaming Red Hair. - Flaming Red Hair. - Flaming Red Hair. - Flaming Red Hair. - Flaming Red Hair. - So good, when Elijah, when Frodo does this little, like, dance move there. And the way they've talked about how, like, all the hobbits learned to learn to, they're, like, we spent weeks in dance rehearsal, and they put all of our dancing out, and it's just that one Elijah move, that's it. - Maybe in the Super Mega Extended Edition, so they really, really, really, please be wonderful. - Yeah, it's got to be a lot more, isn't there? - Yeah, I mean, the party. - It's not forever. - It's not forever. - Yeah. - Honestly. - Yeah, wow. - So, okay, the next category is just for you. - Oh. - The Tom Balm Memorial Award for the book element you missed the most, because when we do the book section, we talk about, like, oh, my God, this thing in the book, it wasn't in the movie. We've already given our bits in, I mean, we haven't, because we haven't done that section, but we will have by the time people listen to this. What's your problem? - I'll qualify this, because I don't know that I miss it. It's just something, because I understand why they, I understand why they did what they did with Mary and Pippin. I do love the Mary and Pippin of the book, who are not the Mary and Pippin of the film, really Mary, who is a little older and kind of an elder statesman's wrong word, but he's sort of a big brother, kind of, like, and I absolutely understand from an adaptation point of view why they did it. And it works. So, that's why I don't know that I miss it. I don't think, I don't, I think they did the right thing for the movie they had to make. But I love the way that they're, that they join the fellowship in the book. And again, when we'll talk about this, when we get to the adaptation section, because there's an adaptation supportive, right? Or am I making that up? - There is. - Okay, yeah. So, like, in order to achieve that, they had to alter the way Mary and Pippin come into the story, which is now just, like, literally right into him and whoops, you know, I guess, I guess we're filming. - A romantic trip. - Yeah. So, funnily enough, the back she movie plays that scene out very well. So there is an adaptation of Mary and Pippin's decision to go on the journey with him. So, but again, I don't, I, but I don't know that I miss it because I, the movie is perfect. - Yeah. - But it is an interesting thing that's in the book and that would miss, like, book Mary while also appreciating. - Yeah, yeah, because there's nothing wrong with, yeah, absolutely. And again, I, you know, faced with compression, compression, they had to, they had to make Sam that. Like, it strengthens that core relationship if you make the two of them a little goofier at the beginning. And also, it strengthens, I think, their arc into heroes. - Yeah, I was gonna say. And like, Mary and Pippin become more somber when they're back at the end. It seems like a bigger, broad stroke sort of, it's, it's movie language, it's supposed to book language. They were going, I mean, they gave Eric a, an arc that. - And I don't want it. - Yeah, as I recall, in the book, he's just tearized, being like, I've decided to be king, everybody. - Yeah. - And, yeah. And this is, this is, in that case, it's far better. - Yeah. - You know? So, yeah. So, otherwise, I don't know the book intimately well enough to, to, I'm sure there, I'm sure if I read it right now, I go, oh, that's a line I miss, but I don't know it well enough to, yeah. - This is one of our favorite categories. Excited about this one. - We actually have some contenders this time. - I got some options here. Yeah. Best use of a woman. - I'm a woman. - I'm a woman. - I'm a woman. - I'm a woman. - I'm a woman. - It's a stretch of story. - There are a few. - There were a few. - There were actually. - Yeah. Sometimes we're going to do the pot and we're going to have to say, you could have put a woman here. But not this time. - Right. - Maybe one of the black writers says a woman. You know? Something to think about in the future. - Fossil? - Does farmer Megan have a wife? - I don't know. - That can be our pick next week for what do we miss from that stretch of the book next week for our Megan's wife. Brian, what is your pick? Do you have a pick here for best use of a woman? - I mean, I guess it's Rosie, you know, she's awfully pretty and smiles at Sam a lot. We all know it all ended up well for them. I don't know. Could have given her a line. Or something. - Or maybe not. Maybe the whole point. - Maybe the whole point. - Maybe the whole point is that she's an unattainable thing that, you know, I don't know. - Every so often we sit here on this pot and we're like, could have had a line. Could have had a name. - Yeah. I mean, she's, but she's-- - Talking often forgets to give people mothers. - Yeah. - At all. So. - I mean, she's well cast. She's very beautiful. - Yeah. - She's memorable. - Yeah. - A great hair. - Yeah. - You know, you get it. You get why he's besotted with her. - Yeah. - I was about to say this. I always pronounce it wrong. The several. - Several baggens. - This is our pick. - But she's not in it enough. I wanted more of her. But she's got that great gate. - Connor, the sticky-fingered queen of resentment herself. - Yeah. - Olivia. - Sackville Baggins. I love her. And again, if you cut that scene, you don't get anything. - You get anything. - Yeah. - Yeah. - You get him, like, hiding in that hole. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Olivia who stole the spoons. - Yeah. - I just love how pissed off she is. - Yeah. - She's a big fan. - Yeah. - That's my pick as well. But mostly because I knew I'd have an opportunity later, to honor Rosie, yeah. - True. - True. - True. - True. - Okay. Did you know, Aragorn broke his toe award for favorite behind the scenes fact? - I don't have one. - It's fine. - Yeah. - That's fine. - We don't want it to feel like homework. Mine is going to be when I mentioned last pot off the cuff. So what's up? - What's yours? - I have 10. - Oh, great. - Okay. - Then Mary, why not nine? Why not stay on prawns and do nine? - I estimate actually one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Actually, it is nine. Nine. - Okay. - Okay, the best. When Mary and Pippin sat off the firework. - Yes. - If you know this, you can hear it. When the firework goes like, you, you can also hear a human shriek. That's Billy Boyd actually shrieking because something happened with the like pyrotechnic that he didn't like know what was going to happen. He said he was afraid it was going to light his pants on fire. And he said that Dom Monahan called him Pissie pants. He's like, I pissed myself. Dom Monahan called him Pissie pants for the rest of. - Excellent. - Not ideal. Honestly. That's a tough. - Yeah. - That's a tough nickname to shake. Ian McKellen banged his head by accident on the top of bag end. I just rolled with it and they kept it. - Wait. Really? That's a improv? Yeah, Phillipa Boynes in the commentary says he banged a backs in and he just kept going because he always stays in character whenever it's like. Oh wow. And when you when you watch the that's some of the most fun like behind the scene stuff to watch is the way that they. I mean different. Yeah and all of the different big bag. You know the test they have to run to get the angles right and you know holding like a head on a stick and stuff but no one in the test runs bangs their head. And you're a wig you know the wig detective. Yeah well kind of cushioning are we getting from Gandalf's wig if we if we. I was pretty sorry. That's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a wig. It's pretty intense. Yeah. Um when Gandalf is in bag and he picks up a Thorne Oak and Shield's map and they were not sure whether or not the map survived the Hobbit so they sent someone to research into the Hobbit to find out whether or not Thorne Oak and Shield's map survived and that person was Vigo Mortensen Sun Henry Mortensen was tasked with this and he was like no it did survive so we can have it in the movie. So that's cool. Henry Mortensen. Very good. Oh I love that. Very good. There are a lot of people know this one but the two little kiddo Hobbits that uh they're both telling a story to our Katie Walsh and Billy Jackson but fun fact. Billy Jackson, Peter Jackson's son uh those kids are so cute. There's so much space. This sounds ap powerful but this is on the commentary. Philippa Boyan says he was the only actor in the entire movie who does not have a wig on every single other person is you which you didn't even say Hobbit. She said every single other person is wearing a wig but Billy Jackson had perfect curly Hobbit hair so they did not have to put a wig on that. There is only one person alive equipped to fact check that. And that's me and it's Joanna Robinson with detective. Wow. That's a lot of wigs. I know. No one else in the movie got their natural hair. That's what she said. I guess I'm thinking and picturing everybody and that's probably true. I can't think of a single person where that would be certainly none of the women. I can't think of a single man where that would be an exception because they all have long hair. Like none of them have more. Manson's hair will be blonde. Yeah. Oh right. I am the polar opposite of Joanna. I got no wig. I am saying. She'll say sometimes something about it. This is a terrible wig and I'm like that. No. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't I wasn't a very useful producer on my wig heavy show. A gift or a sickness actually. Yeah. Okay. I'll wrap it by the rest. Billy Boy is playing guitar on the stage. He's part of the band in the background. You'll see it. Awesome. Did not. The cake lights on fire. You can see that as well. The take was so good that they didn't stop it. But he's got a ton of it's like polystyrene or whatever. It lit on fire. So it's kind of on fire. When he says proud foot and he says proud feet. The angle, the shot Peter Jackson says is his one homage to the Ralph Bakshi movies. Oh. That shot perfectly. I love those movies so much. Yeah. I love that movie. Ian home can wiggle his own ears. So when Philbo's ears wiggle that's Ian home wiggling his own ears. Awesome. Is that an unusual thing to be able to do? Wiggle in your ear? Can you wiggle your ear? I would like to see it pop in your arms. Pop yours. You're not doing it. Yeah. You're moving your head. You're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, I can wiggle my ears. I say, let's put anybody can wiggle her ears. Seven days. Seven days. Oh, did you have like elf ears? We put Hobbit ears. Hobbit ears. Yeah. Okay. We used the Spirit gum. She is the first time I'm a Spirit gum. And sure watch. I didn't tell it. It was your first time a Spirit gum. Possibly last. I didn't know how to get it off. Yeah. It's not my thing. I figured it out. The drip into the ear canal. Little tough. Little tough. This is my last one. It's not actually fact. It's just a more of a question. Also, but it came off the commentary. When the black writer rolls up and he's like shire back and there's a, you know, he's like, oh, not you. That guy has a dog, as you mentioned. That dog is Hobbit set. What kind of dog is that? Do Hobbits have dogs that are smaller in size than other dogs? This was I believe a dog. Do we see any other dogs in Hobbit fascinating? Yeah. I mean, I guess they could just like a toy poodle. Do they ever see the dog in relation to the Hobbit? We do. Just like standing in the doorway. Yeah. They're the same shot. Yeah. Now that I'm not enough of a like expert on dog breeds to say the size of that dog in real life. That's just a probably mid to large size dog. But I guess conceptually like a lap. They could have just like a smaller breed of dog. Yeah. I don't know. But it's just sort of like something I'd never thought of before. That's never been either interesting. No, all of us talk about how they need, you know, they need ponies. But why aren't we talking about the dogs? Yeah. Well, it's just the one dog. So, you know, just the one dog and he was scared. Yeah. And I felt sad. It's a good shot though. It really is when it kind of shrinks. Yeah, it's great. I noticed that this time too. I was like, oh, yeah, that's just all these little details. So good. My pick is, you know, we kind of off the cough with when we were talking with Camille last pod, this came up. But I did want to sense the ring as we've talked about many times already today is so central to this stretch of the film wanted to toast this little factoid here once more. Rick Poris, one of the producers on the movie, it in actually the the bag and set tests and testing the kind of flow of the scene and where they had to know because of the different statues and the perspective exactly where the cameras were going to be, right? So they had Yens Hansen, a master self or smith and goldsmith. So that's pretty sick, right? Making all these problems on the the bonus feature at Designing Middle Earth, you can you can hear about this on the appendices that we were talking about earlier. And, you know, he's making 15, right? They've got a ton. They're like all slightly different. All these things that they're considering. And then Rick Poris is there playing Frodo and Peter Jackson's there playing Gandalf. And he holds out the envelope and Rick Poris just takes his wedding ring off and drops it as the envelope and it falls through the paper and it hits the floor and it makes the sound. And here's the quote. This is from Rick Poris. Pete, I actually think obviously on bias, but I really like the way my redding ring looks. This is the best part. They cut to Dan Hannah, the supervising art director. And he's like, oh god, everyone loves their wedding ring. So funny. I love it. He's ever this before. Incredible. And then he says, but anyway, yeah, it had a sort of shape to it. It had a nuance that was slightly different from the others. So we took that with us the next time we went to see Jens Hanson to talk about the design of the ring. And then Rick Poris says it made some adjustments after that. Kind of rounded it off a bit, but they used it as a basic starting point for the one ring. So I love this because of her couple reasons. Like the simplest, the seeming simplicity of the ring. That it could just be this every day object that any person could have on their finger. And then the whole that has over you, the one ring, the darkness and power that's our own port into it. I think that's just like kind of perfect in a meta way. But also just in terms of how they made these movies, you know, we talked last public that they spent a year growing out the bushes and hop a tin before they filmed like everything was meticulous and plotted and planned. But then they also all talk about they were nimble. And then one day we had a new idea. Yeah. And that's just amazing to me to be able to blend that level of precision and planning with the room to adjust in real time. Like very again, kind of meta what would be required for a quest. You know, and if you're a Johnny Stavys, you're like, and then there's shovel script copies on the mind. And I didn't read them. And I didn't best. What a workshop wonders. Yeah. Which is the most impressive visual effect or creation in the stretch. And it can be something specific or more broad that, you know, repairs across the film. Well, yeah, I think my answer was originally, but this isn't really a visual effect. This was the ring hitting the thing, but that's not a visual effect. I would say, I mean, this is kind of boring, but I, it's when he, it's when he gets back, it's big. Yeah, because it's so subtle. Yeah. For a hundred of treat pricks. Yeah, like you don't quite know what's happening until it's about halfway done. Yeah. I think that's what's so brilliant about it. It's very, it feels very organic. You know, and in a way that, that could have been a much more bombastic kind of moment. It's very, again, it's, that's all kind of just, and it's also like in my mind, he actually grew, like I was trying to send you a gift of it the other day. So I was trying to find like when he shrinks back down, but he doesn't really, it's just lighting and performance and like, what, you know, I'm trying, but I was just sort of like, I misremembered it as him, like, but it's just camera work. Yeah. Yeah, it's just good old-fashioned movie making, you know? Yeah, yeah, I really love that. That's a great one. The shadow. Yeah. Yeah. Darkening. Yeah, it's just like kind of, it kind of speaks to what you were talking about earlier with him saying it doesn't like magic in movies. Like it doesn't, it's magic, but it, it's not a cheap trick. I mean, it's something elemental, you know? Yeah. I love that. What's your picture? We get two badass bigotures in this sequence when, you know, we get Baradour and we get Gondor. The ministerial, the ministerial bigoture is 23 feet tall and has over a thousand individual houses sort of like in it. And the shot that they have here is what Peter Jackson called the Constantinople shot, which is just sort of like you can see the sun glowing on the city and sort of like what the city represents. And when they shot this, Alan Lee said, you suddenly saw the potential of these miniatures. Minnes Tirith had only been built for long shots, but they could get within an inch without it seeming fake. So they just like built these incredible intricate get like huge but small things. And in this shot that we get in this in the montage when get off goes to do pod, pod prep as you put it. They, yeah, they were able to swing the camera around it in a way where they're like, damn, we can get really close at this, this is amazing. So. - That's great. - I mean, they're, they're incredible. And like when you watch other, you know, fantasy properties where they establish a place and it's like CG, like it can look okay, but it's nothing matches what, what these are that like just how real feeling it is. - Yeah. - I mean, it's very reminiscent of, you know, the original Star Wars trilogy and that, like, that feeling is a movie nerd when you get to learn about how a new hope was made. - When you see the trenches of the Death Star, that's still just those little, you know. - And it gives you that, it's the best feeling where you're like, I have gained an insight into something miraculous that I didn't think was possible, but then also there's a little part of your mind. That's like, can I do that at home? Which is just like a fun, a fun thing to do yourself into or maybe if you're a genius, like, actually be possible for you, I love that. - You build a go. - I was gonna say, there's a 36-minus set like I said, yeah. I don't have it yet, but I must have referenced this in our episode before my other favorite thing in return of the King is when he's riding up the, - Oh, yeah. - Riding up Minus Terrace. - Oh, I love that. - That music cue. - The sound of the horse's hoof on the cobblestones. - When they shot this sequence of Gandalf going into the streets of ministerial in Gondor, they shot it when they shot all of the Gondor stuff, of course, and so they shot it like. So as they put it, he had been playing Gondor off the white for months and months and months and months and then they had to put it back in the grubby gray kit. - Okay, so that would have been a last minute shot for Fellowship probably. - But that's just how Peter Jackson planned it out. He planned this all out where he's just like, okay, and when we get to Gondor and I need a shot of him in grubby gray on the streets, we can put it back in Fellowship, you know. - That's cool. - That's amazing. - Yes, but these movies were all dead. My pick here, we've already talked about it, but I think because we spend so much time with Gandalf, Bilbo, and Frodo, and this stretch, it felt like the right time to talk about just the perspective filming and the scale and the sketch. You're like, I remember the first time I watched the behind the scenes feature out on how they did this and like what you were talking about earlier, the swing of the camera and you realize how long the table actually is, or, you know, the sets, the doubles, the fact that there was like a version of a prop for the stature of whoever's gonna be holding it like all of it. But then, you know, beyond that, even just the level of preparation in order to pull that off in a way that is too eye seamless, you know, the storyboarding into the animated storyboarding into the pre-vis. And that's a fun thing to learn about too, like for Weta incorporating the pre-vis and that new technology and like, you know, Jackson and his team going to Lucas Ranch and learning about that, like kind of on the fly, sort of incredible. And then the miniatures and the bigotures and Peter Jackson talking about taking his like lipstick cam. I like that shot in one of the bonus feature sets when they're showing eyes in guard because he knew he was gonna have to film Gandalf from above, right? So the angles have to be right when Gandalf walks in and bumps his head even though they don't know he's gonna bump his head on back end. Like how is everybody gonna be positioned? It's just kind of, I guess you had to figure out how to do it, how to make the hobbits look like half legs, right? But it is, I don't know. It's just the level of practical effects and math, vectors and geometry and angles. It's like, it's just amazing. - One of you said earlier, and I hadn't thought of this is that the decision to front load as much of that as possible. And the story, thankfully, allowed for that so that you don't have to do it as much and later in the movie, it can be, the audience is sort of acclimated. But you really overload it with all these amazing kind of moments like the, I was the hat and the hat. - Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. I never thought about that before. - It's also while Ian McKellen looks so huge on that set and he's such like a slim slender guy, you know what I mean? Like he's just kind of like a slight fellow and he's just like his sort of like, hunched and hulking and bagging and amazing. - I love it, so cool. - All right, I think this is one of the categories we've all been anticipating the most today. I just like saying it, the most quotable line from this section. So let's all give our winners our primary pick and then let's hit some, some honorable mentions for this category. - Well, I think it's the last line of the, if my timing is right, and this was a line that hit me, I remember it hitting me in the theater the first time I watched it and it was Gandalf saying, "It wants to be found." - Oh, I love that one. - I've fucking watched that live. - I remember in that moment, watching it thinking, who's the ring wants to be found. It's the ring's evil. It's not an object that is magic and whoever wields it will have great power and if a good person has it, it is evil. - I guess I will if it's so. - It has a personality. It wants to be found. And just the way he. - Yeah. - I mean, McKellen, we'll talk about this when we talk about the performer MVP spoiler. But like, 'cause not only does he say that line with the dread that it needs, he's a teacher. There's an element of, you know, I need you to understand this and isn't this kind of amazing. - Right, it wants to be. - Right? - Like his eyes kind of. - All right. - A weird way. Like, it's so, it's such a subtle little shade and it's why he's one of the greatest actors of all time but it's 'cause he's got five things going on in that one little line. But I remember, I remember in the moment at the theater watching the movie. - Yeah, yeah. - To that line. - All time. - It's a factfulness of that line. Then, you know, we've seen the ring is evil there but for some reason it's that line. - I love it. We will've talked about this in the book section but like, the way that the ring dumps golem essentially because it's no longer of use to it. It wants to be found and he's like, this little fucker who's just eating fish underground is not gonna get me back to my master. I gotta, oh, here's a right outta here. It's a hobbit. Let's go. - It's a pendant golem. - Yeah. - And that's touching, you know, this in the prologue, but something happened. The ring did not intend when the hobbit, Bilbo, but that kind of feeds that idea too. It's like the ring has a plan. - Yeah. - They are one. - Yeah. - It's slipped off his silders finger in the river 'cause it's just sorta like that. - It's like no one with you. - Yeah, yeah. - Fucker, bye. - Yeah. - The best. It's really tough to top. I love that line. Genuinely iconic. What's your pick? Are you going with a Gandalf line as well? - Yeah. - Same. - It's genuinely one of my favorite lines. - I mean, not. - I'm gonna say that every week probably. A late for trimming the verge, don't you think? - Good. - When he grabs Sam in, and that's a Phil Pappoyne's original. It's not from the book. He says something much more boring in the book. Just sorta like, he does the dropping Eve's thing, but like he says something like, what are you doing out here? But a little late for trimming the verge, don't you think? It's just really good. The best. - I would have absolutely thought that was talking. That's great. - Also, it is that stretchwear, 'cause it's concert references to hearing Sam out there and the Boeing he's there. And the book, it's so good. It's just sorta like, the way he does it, 'cause it just sorta like, the way he drops it, and nothing you couldn't hear a sound, except for the sound of Sam Sheer's. Like, it's sort of like, it's so subtly worked in, and it's like he's getting closer and closer, and then it's like, and you couldn't even hear Sam Sheer's anymore, and that's because he's listening. - 'Cause he's listening. - Oh, that's the best. - Oh, that's wonderful. Wow. - 'Cause the Danesley is during the day. - Really great. - I'm also going with a, again, offline. Nobody listening to this podcast will be surprised. How is it not keeping secret, keep it safe? - Oh, yeah, I mean. - And then is it secret, is it safe? Just obviously, from the book, but keep it secret and keep it safe. Now I'm going to bed hysterical, very relatable. This is another one that my husband, Adam, and I just quote to each other all the time, just like it could be done with anything. Is it secret, is it safe? So this is just a part of my life in a really deep way, and I love it. But his performance, he has accounts performance of that is just perfection. I absolutely love it. - I was thinking about the fact that you told me that this stretch of the movie is one that you and Adam quote constantly. And so when I was watching, I was like, why isn't this a stretch that I quote a lot? And then I was like, oh, every time I, 'cause Malloray and her husband do this like very sweet, cozy family, like we together are watching these movies. - Yeah, but it's far away from each other in the cast. - That's possible. - I do an insane thing where I invite everyone I know over to watch the movie. - Oh, it's my party. - It's a party and usually people aren't necessarily here at the hour 'cause you have to start early 'cause you do it all day, but I'm like getting shit ready. So I'll put it on, you have to start it or else you're gonna run out of time. So you have to start early the morning, but I'm not done getting everything ready. So I think usually around the stretch of my life. - The section suffers a bit. - Yeah, I'm still like, you know, making the stew or whatever it is I'm doing. - Yeah, I'm with you, this is probably the section. It was amazing you wanted me for this section 'cause we didn't talk up, you said this is the one you're doing. - Yeah. - But it's probably, it's probably my favorite section. - We felt like this was the only thing. - He just really wanted you talking about Bobo's party if Bobo made it to us. It did, definitely. - Yeah. - What are some other contenders here? We already talked about just T. - I mean, there's, I mean, you don't tempt me for it, but it's not even, it's actually the next part that I love. I don't know, the way he does it, I love, I don't take it. Not even to keep it safe. - Yeah. - He's sort of, he's barely moving his mouth 'cause he's so scared. - Yeah, yes. Godf*ckin' hell. It is his performance in his, he's just, he's almost exhausted like the temptation has exhausted him. Yeah, and the fear. I did not take it. Not even to give it to him, you know, I just, I love, I love that. And then, and then this isn't a, it's not a lot. No, I'll save, I'll save this, I'll talk about that in a minute. Okay. Okay. So, there's all kinds of lines. Well, what else do you have? A couple others? He is seeking it, seeking it always. Oh, yes. And then Saren needs only this ring to cover all the land and second darkness. Yeah. Yeah. I already said it, but do they Gandalf, it's, I mean, every time Elijah Woods has Gandalf, it's like so funny to me. And then double-edit circus, Shire Baggins, because he's both the ring-raith voice and he's the Shire. That's right. That's right. That's pretty good. No, that's not, that's not my full golem, but Shire Baggins. That's the Frodo pay off for that later, but that will lead them here as also just great. I love that word. It's hard to figure it out. Yeah. God, I guess we're going to get like really horrible golem torture scenes in this movie. That's right. There's some line for the books where he's going to get laid. He's not very forthcoming, but I got it out of it. Had to do him. Yeah. The fear of fire. Had to do it, had to do it. All right, because he tortures him. Yeah, I'll do. Well, it's a difference. Draft, Draft, Draft, Sauron, Gandalf. We're all torture golem. We're all rough movie. Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait. A few others. I just love Bilbo. Shrinking it. Well, I'm not an oom. Oh, yeah. That's great. Always. Always. All the world. The Sack Phil Baggins. Always. And sometimes our neighbor old is like, I know you guys are there. I'm not an oom. I, you know, this is a, this is an iconic one, obviously, a version of a, of a bookline. I'm old, Gandalf. I know I don't look it, but I'm beginning to feel it in my heart. I feel thin, sort of stretched like butter scraped over too much bread. You can just quote that all the time now. I say toast. I love that. And you know, I was a little about that moment. You can see Michelin, Gandalf, you're over, not short of over his shoulder. You just have a little bit of his, of the edge of his pat. Yeah. And he nods. When he says like butter spread over too much bread, Michelin nods empathetically just at the edge of brain. Just hat acting. It's phenomenal. Wow. I love it. I love it. He's listening. And it's a very generous thing, but it informs that moment in a way, it's such a strange little thing, but it's so good. So it's incredible about this, you know, we are, we're going to, you want to celebrate you and Michelin, we want to celebrate you in home. We want to celebrate them all, but like, um, a, that they had never worked together. Like, incredible. Oh, wow. And then B, that they're not together for most of these scenes because they had to shoot with the double, you know what I mean? But something that they said in one of the commentaries was like, uh, or maybe it was a book I was reading, um, that the actors would be there. I mean, they would be there anyway to sort of like give their line reads off camera or whatever, but also to the phrase they use is direct their doubles on how they wanted to move. And I hadn't thought about that about like, in home, in relationship with the, you know, the person who is smaller, double, just being like, okay, when you quiver, do it like this. Yeah. Because that's how I want to do it. I wonder if that was just double in that shot, maybe not though, because that's a close up. I'm not saying it wasn't that. No, I'm wondering. No, I'm just, it's fascinating because they do such a good job that you don't even think about the fact that in a lot of those shots, it wouldn't be. Yeah. That's fascinating. I love that you're, that you're identifying that though, because like in the book, it is that line, it's something that Gandalf will call back upon when he's talking to Frodo. Oh, is that right? And stretch to thin, like it, it hit him. Gandalf hearing Bilbo say that it was like, oh, no, he's like, that was a banger line. Yeah. Exactly. There's a Bilbo line that certainly is eligible for this category, but we'll save it for another superlative later and hit it there. You know, in the Sam front, obviously this is an all-timer. Nothing important that is I heard a good deal about a ring and a dark lord and something about the end of the world. Incredible. So good. So please, Mr. Gandalf sir, don't hurt me. Don't turn me into anything. And natural. Should we sing a little is this an opportunity, hey, hold to the bottle, I go, we haven't sung enough today just throwing that out there to heal my heart and drown my world. And that's, that's not in the theatrical cut either. No. The entire pub is tragic. Yeah. Traject. I'll shout out the musical. I fucking love Lord of the Rings musical. I said it. We saw it. Brian Kogman, we went to go see it in Chicago because you talked about that. Oh, did you see it? Yeah. I was it. We like went to Chicago to see it. I will say this. The first act is amazing. The second act they try to like, they just like, I never seen it, I've only just listened to it. A lot to get through in the back. No, they got it. They got it. They basically skipped to the end. I mean, they basically skipped the two towers, right? Kind of. Essentially. Yeah. Like, we were like, how are they going to, and then they're just like, when we just didn't. Yeah. Like, okay. The songs are so good. Now and for always. Right. Oh my god. And the kind of, the kind of fucking fiddle song is amazing. Yeah. And then all of Gladriel's crazy shit about musicals. That's right. I just love it. It's beautiful. Yeah. It's underrated. I was going to say act two starts with, golem, and this production, we saw it, the Chicago Shakespeare. Yeah. Act two starts with golem, like sort of, belaying down a rope from like the rafters of the theater. And they, they placed it literally, I mean, it's where it is every, every night, but right over my seat. So he was just like to live. She was like, coming at you. She was just like, waiting down, like, right. Oh my god. To land, like, basically in the aisle, like, right next to me. But I was just like, incredible. Wow. That's cool. And they had this really, like, before it started, they were like, pretending you were at Bilbo's birthday. That's right. So like all the hobbit actors were out in the seats, like, just being like welcome to Bilbo's birthday and Bilbo's team and talk to us. It was great. That's great. Yeah. So happy you saw it. No, I've never seen it. I just listened to them. Because of you, honestly. Yeah. That's why we heard it. We got there, like, right before the end of the run, too, right? Yeah. And we saw it. Well, it's rarely done. I'm amazed you found a production of it at all. We saw so many house of our listeners there. Oh, cool. And they were like, if we were going to run into you anyway, it was going to be. It was going to be at the lawyer's musical. Oh, fun. Yeah. That's great. Well, very cool. Amazing. Okay. You have indicated throughout the pod a desire to get to this category, adaptation, most impactful adaptive decision. Well, I mean, it's sort of speaking to what I was talking about earlier. I mean, it's just, look, it's a thriller and you can't wait 17 years. I mean, it's brilliant, like, it's got to be a thriller, it's got to have momentum. So in the book, the ring is with Frodo for 17 years and look, there's something cool about that, too, that it's kept him young and it's sort of working on him without him knowing it and everything. But it was an absolute masterstroke to compress it all and keep that, you know, it does work. Yeah. I mean, it's like, yeah, I mean, it's like, you have to go tonight, you know, and that's, and that's why, you know, that's why people in Mary have to literally just bump into them because they're not planning, because even when he decides to go, he takes it out. Okay. So I'm going to get this. Or do that. We're going to do that. Got to sell back. I have to imagine that was a very early decision when they were adapting it to just amp up the thriller steaks element. Well, they don't have to deal. I mean, even though the rain doesn't age, you don't have to deal with like any sort of time job. Yeah. So that was a masterstroke of many masterstrokes. I mean, it's. Yeah. Yeah. You know, when I was, when my brief time working on the show, we were, we really, I really gave me a greater appreciation, because we would, I was referencing the books and we were talking a lot about the books in the movies as we were kind of first mapping out the show and it really gave me a greater appreciation of just kind of the decisions they made throughout. I mean, I, I, I, I would defend almost probably all of them, actually, even the ones that are more controversial. Like, no, I get it. I get why you did that. You know. So, yeah. I, I, I, I thought it was, I mean, I'm the guy who's like, I would have kept Arwen at, yeah. Helm's deep. Yeah. Helm's deep. Sure. I think that was a good idea. I agree. Honestly, I agree. I would, my own. I think fairamere is like the only one that I feel like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but I, I get it. I get it. Yeah. I'm just saying. Yeah. But that's one that I feel like, I feel similar the way I feel about Mary and Pippin. Like, like, like, I understand, I don't know that book fairamere could have worked with in this construct, but I do love book fairamere. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If anyone is listening to our hope is even if you haven't read the books, you'll also listen to the book section of the pod. But if anyone is just, I'm sorry. I'm with the movie. You're like, what do you have? 17 years. What do you talk about? Oh, yeah. One little passage from the book that it doesn't cover all the time, but it, it'll give you a sense of what we're talking about. On chapter two, for three years after the party, he had been away, he had been off. Then he paid Frodo a brief visit, and after taking a good look at him, he went off again. During the next year or two, he turned up fairly often, coming unexpectedly after dusk and going off without warning before sunrise. He would not discuss his own business and journeys and see chiefly interested in small news about Frodo's health and doings. And suddenly his visits had ceased. It was over nine years since Frodo had seen, or heard of him, to be fair. - Some lines are different for hobbitly. They live longer anyway. - This is true. - So like, this is a shit that got Elrond in trouble with Durin, you know? - Right, right. - Time is different for them. - That's true. - It's like time is different for me. And Durin's like, "You miss my fucking wedding and the birth and my children season rings the power," which we both just watched. - I actually really love that. I love first season rings the power. - Okay, Durin. - My adept, I think yours is the right answer. Not that there needs to be a right answer, but I just think also Frodo not knowing Bilbo is leaving is like. - Oh yeah, oh yeah. - That's the answer as well. - Brilliant. - Which are each time. - Absolutely, absolutely. So I guess that hunt for golem thing, I'm just fixating on this movie that is, I mean, the book that's 17 years of incident that they're, but I suspect they're gonna put it into the movie timeline where it's more kind of urgent and frilly, right? 'Cause it'll have to span just a few weeks, a few months. - We'll talk about it in the book section, but like he basically just reeds out the entire book for golem. - Yeah, and also like, here's the treatment for a future. - He's like, first, it's the Merckwood Elves. And then we got Aragorn involved. - Right, it's all there. - I've got Aragorn. - So that's Tracker there is. - Yeah, that's cool. - That would be good. - I'm revisiting those chapters. Certainly heightened, my excitement. - Yeah. - The premise is good. I think I would have less apprehension if we were just doing it without any of the same actors. - I see. - And then we could just sort of just do it. - Just sort of just do it. - Right, right. - And you're worried about the de-aging, and you know. - I am. - I'm just worried about like, sort of bending it to fit it. Like is Frodo there because we're gonna pretend that Gandalf told in this story in Baghen, and we're just gonna pretend it like we didn't get to see it. - Right. - Why else is Frodo? - Yeah. - Ooh, maybe. - It's probably that. It's probably like they did it with the habit where it's like a little extra scene that you didn't really see. - Yeah. - That's gotta be it. - Yeah. I don't know. That concerns me, but if it excites people, that's good too. (laughing) - Most relevant idea to encounter in 2026. This could be something that's always felt really relevant to you. It could be something that stands out, maybe newly in our modern times. - Well, I mean, just the Sleeping Evil, right? - Yep, yes, for sure. - I mean, the Sleeping Evil, whatever that means to you. I think that's throughout history, the evil that we are either blissfully unaware of, or aware of, and keeping it bang, ignoring, not taking seriously. And the idea of, it's funny, 'cause, and then this was another kind of brilliant stroke and really just casting all four of the hobbits is young. As young look, you know, like-- - Yeah. - The idea of a future, of an innocent future generation that isn't sort of tainted by all of the bullshit, being the ones that are key to-- - Yeah. - And I don't know that that's necessarily a Tolkien idea or not, but it's certainly fused in the movie with the casting, I feel. - I think if you think about Tolkien writing the Hobbit, again, allegory versus applicability, but if you think about Tolkien writing the Hobbit after his experiences in World War I, and then writing "Liter of the Rings," while his son is in the RAF from World War II, and sending chapters to Christopher while he's fighting World War II, I think that is very tough about him. - Yeah. - Yeah, absolutely. My answer is the same. So the quote from the pub scene that is cut, the gaffer says, "Wars brewing the mountains are fair teaming with goblins." Another Hobbit says, "Far off tales and children's stories." That's all that is. You're beginning to sound like that old Bilbo Baggins cracked he was. And the line for the book, there are many, but always after a defeat and a respite, the shadow takes another shape and grows again. - Yes. - Yep. - So, exactly. - He's a little just not asleep. Elrond, it waits. Ted Sandy, man. Fuck that guy. - Yeah, fuck Ted. He's gonna get up to some shit in the scouring of the shire. - Yeah. - So nice to plant the seed early, though he's a piece of garbage. - Yeah, I mean, I think those are certainly the picks. I was, Brian, you were talking about this line earlier, but I was really struck by this time when Gandalf says, you know, do not tempt me. Understand, Frodo. I would use the ring from a desire to do good, but through me, through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine. Like thinking about our kind of current tech times. - Mm-hmm. - And the personal morality that leads, like, who actually has a strength to resist, making the mistake of saying, well, I would just use it for good. I would do good. And it's like, would you? Who actually would, right? - And can it be? - Yeah, exactly. Right, exactly. - I mean, that's what's so amazing about the ring can't, it can't be used for good because it is an evil thing. - Yeah, exactly. - And that was really reinforced this last time when I watched it. It's like, there are no right hands for it. - There are just things we should not meddle with. - It's just a simple idea, but it's so brilliant. It's just so, it's the whole thing hangs on it, you know? - Yeah, as we're just living in a time where like, there's just not a lot of like, that is just a thing clearly we should not meddle with. We should not attempt to wield. We should definitely seek to destroy. And like, it's, it's. - And the line, and the-- - The artificial inventors later this year. - And the pub line. - I can't wait to see it. - I thought, 'cause the end of that scene, another very relevant line is, and I don't remember exactly what it, it's something, something to the effect of don't be looking for trouble and trouble won't find you. - Yeah, yeah. Well, it's none of our concern what goes on beyond our borders. - That's irrelevant, I mean, that's irrelevant now. I mean, everyone's-- - The founders are busy as ever. - I mean, all of us, all of us are to a point just to stay sane, being like, okay, I'm just not gonna think about this for a while. - Yeah. - And, yeah, no. - It's grim, on the, on the Gandalf with the Ring Front, this is from a 1963 letter that Tolkien wrote. Gandalf as Ringlord would have been far worse than Saron. He would have remained righteous, but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for good. And that's, I mean, that's Saron's whole thing is like, I want to see all middle-earth now. It's like, what does that mean? - Yeah. And the Enderings of Power, when Galadriel's like, you know, to rule, like to rule, yeah. - I see no difference, right? And the glimpse of the horrible truth. But, yeah, I mean, how can that Gandalf line not be on our minds, obviously, later with Borumir or Denathor, right? Like, it's just, it's the kind of foundational text of the risk. - Yeah. - Just like Tonell's shift here. - Yeah. - Okay, 'cause this was getting really, they're all dark. - Horn of Gondor, Hornious moment. - Oh. - This is another new category this week. I like putting these two categories across the back. Let's just try to bring up the mood. - This can be an actual Hornie moment or just something that you-- - Yeah. - It's up to you, you know? - Talk about the Hornious movie, at least until we get to Legolas and Ergorn. I, is there one in this section? Let me think about it. - This was where I was going to talk about Rosie. - Yeah, I mean, I-- - Sam? - Well, you know, Sam in a very pure chase away. Like, boy, I really want to fuck Rosie Gondor. And like, with the way he's-- And of course, then we have our emotion. And it is ultimately a very tender thing. But like, when you re-watch Fellowship and you watch Sam watching Rosie dance, it is impossible if you love these movies not to hear from Return of the King. Oh, he's got dancing. She had ribbons in her hair, you know? - Yeah. - And then like Frodo pushing him over to dance. And then later when they're at the green dragon, he's just like watching her cleaner glass. - Yeah. - White button, like a bug. - But I don't see horny, though. I see, I think he wants to just like, you know, hold her hand and take care of her. - And then some other stuff as well. - Yeah, I mean, sure. But I don't know. I didn't feel much more-- - I didn't feel much more hornyness in this section. - We got to find a way, you know? Here's how I-- - Sam, here's my candidate for you. - Mrs. Brace Goodall, how nice to see you. Welcome, welcome. Are all these children yours? Good gracious, you have been productive. - There you go, there you go. - I'm gonna have a storm. Mrs. Brace Goodall, and a fruit of children. - Good, good, yes. - Love it. Perhaps this is also somebody's picked for the next category. Could be. - Mrs. Brace Goodall and her children? - Most iconic movie moment. From this stretch, what is the most iconic movie moment from this stretch? We've obviously, it can be a thing we've already talked about. - Yeah, I mean, we've talked about a lot of iconic moments. - Yeah, I mean, certainly the ring landing, the thud. - There are some shots, though, that are. There are some really kind of just burn in your brain shots. One of them is Frodo's, do they gandalf? One of them is Bilbo, the-- - Oh yeah, sure. - Yes, yeah. - Err, err. (laughing) - You can call that before or not, by the way. - Yeah, yeah, so I, I mean, you know, yeah, it's probably, I think, unless I'm forgetting something very obvious, it's the ring, it's the ring, it's the ring, hitting the thing, man. - It's the thud. - That's my answer, too. It drops the heavy clunk in the front hall of Bag End. They put a magnet under the floor so that it wouldn't bounce. It just lands. - It just stops your breath every time. - And it just looks huge and heavy and just, you know, the weight of that and then, like, Bilbo, I was like, he can sing a jaunty tune down the road. The weight, that is off of him. - That's right. - It drives that ring. - So you guys are not picking just T. (laughing) Okay, I'm going with another ring pick. Something we actually haven't quite talked about today. Realizing the ring is the ring, he's iconic. So Gandalf's suspicions have been mounting. They've been growing in a more compressed period of time than in the book as discussed, but still, he has found a sealed horse account. We have gotten that line. A secret now that only fire can tell, right? - This is great. - And then he goes to Bag End, has opened a window. (laughing) - You just want some air. - We'll stuff you in there. - Super's are flying everywhere. - It goes everywhere. Everywhere. Toss his ring into the fire. Hands, it's a Frodo. - Quite cool. - We love it. - Quite cool. - That's great. - Quite cool. - Quite cool. - Can you see anything? And this is one of the, when we were talking earlier about like the camera angle right on Gandalf's face and Frodo in the background. This is one of the ones that pops to mind right away. Can you see anything? Nothing. there's nothing and we're on a wrong Gandalf's face and there is a deep sigh of relief, a release of tension, a moment for like a half a millisecond of calm. And then we hear Frodo say, "Wait, there are markings." To me, that's the pick. Like, and he's looking at it in his fingers and the markings are fl- -Oh, that's a bit kind of shot. -And then the- -Yes. -The reflection on his face. -Yeah. -On his face, the letters playing off of Frodo's face. And then the ring verse, and the the movie's version of the ring verse, right? At some point in my office, I can't read it there. A few can. The language is out of mortar, which I'm not out of here. Mordor! That's incredible. -In the comments- -No one gave him the memory to the ball. -Yeah. -Mordor. -Mordor. -This is the one ring. And that's what I guess he is seeking at line. -It's just- -Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. -I think the- so they talked about how hard it was to figure out how to do the, you know, they looked very closely to see whether the inscription would be on the outside of the inside and they're like, okay, it's bowl. So to digitally put that on there and then to digitally like project it onto Elijah's face. And the book I was reading about the making of the movie and he can imagine the author of that book called it like the Mark of Kane, which I just like loved that idea of just sort of like his forever curse now, like the reflection. Because like he had the ring, but he had it in an envelope and a drawer and he just like didn't- -Yeah. -He didn't touch it. -You know what he means? Like this is the moment. -He's in now. -Yeah. So good. What a movie. Okay, MVP of this section is our last superlative. We've all kind of spoiled our pick. Everyone's going with an Ian. -Yeah, but not the same thing. -Okay, all right. -So you're going- -I mean, I'm going with Ian McKellen. -Tell us why. -I mean, it's just- it's one of- there are a few performances where you can- you can feel an entire character's history and life infused in just behavior. I mean, it's just the most transformative kind of just lived in performance in a fantasy movie. I think I can- I can think- and it grows the entire thing. It sets the tone for the entire thing. And his warmth and his humor and his- the way he can sort of turn on a dime and become this, you know, this ancient sort of all-powerful elemental force that, you know, Gandalf is capable of being. But in the end, he really would rather just be smoking weave with his friends and- -Really? -And partying, you know what I mean? So he's just- but the love he has- the affection he has for Frodo. -Yeah. -Oh, the- the bit- the- the- the- the- the shot thing. The performance bit that gets me every time is he's been waiting for him to come back. -Yeah. -And he comes back in and he's- and he's looking at the firing room. -Yeah, yeah, yeah. -And then he turns around and sees him. -Yeah. -And do you know the moment I'm talking- -Yes, yes. -And smiles at him. He loves him so much when he knows he's probably about to maybe ruin his life. -He looks like he's throwing at his hand. -Yeah, I'm not gonna touch that. -Yeah, like something's wrong here and I think I- and he doesn't know consciously how much he's about to ruin this guy's life, but he's about to start a journey that will ultimately change it all. And it's just- it's just the weight of that. But again, it's infused with such love. You know, this whole hippie just kind of- who- so I just- and there's- there's equal parts innocence and far too much knowledge of the world and the way things are kind of crashing against each other. Which is what I love about Gandalf the Grey. I mean, Gandalf the White is of course wonderful, but- -Oh, I know. -But you know, Gandalf the Grey, you know, and what's really about bringing him back is, yeah, he's back in the other movies, but this character does die in this movie. -Yeah. -Like, you know, you don't get him back. And yeah, and then just in terms of why though the MVP is, this shit is tough. There's a lot of- of exposition. And it never feels- I mean, this is in the writing as well, but it never feels dry, expository. There's always intention. It's always cut with a little bit of a joke. And frankly, you know, you put credit to Professor Tolkien. A lot of this comes straight into the book. I mean, it's well rendered in the book too, but- but just the way he delivers it. There's such- there's such ease to it, but he hits exactly what you need to hit. -Yeah. -The emphasis just- from a technical standpoint is an actor. The emphasis on certain words and the- the- the peppery puts on certain things. -Yeah. -I mean, it's just- he should have won the- I mean, I- I loved Jim Broadman. I worked with Jim Broadman, but I- but, you know, he- -Yeah. -We can't -should have won the Oscar for this performance. -I mean, it's just- -I- I- I do think this is the pick. I think that Gandalf in this section is undeniable and- and what Ian McClellan does here is- is so essential, uh, and just captivating. I am going to go with Ian Holmes. -The words- it's our chance to solve it. I will have- -The words- it's our chance to solve it. I will have- -As you should. -We'll get to- -Yeah, a lot of Ian McClellan knows. -I mean, I don't know. Will we- -Mori- -Will we go with the Valorug in the Moria pod instead? Maybe this will open a mistake if I say not to have- -No, those in America. -It's- it's- it's- it's Moria. Anyway, yeah, Ian Holmes. -Yes. -There are number one pick from the beginning for Bilbo. -Yes. -Never saw anyone else for the role. This was their Bilbo from the start. Just an incredible stage actor listening to Ian McClellan talk about him, and he's like, "I've just saw him Henry Vs. Stratford porn even." And he was like- he's such- he was like- he's- he's a small man. It's quite surprising what he can do. -Yeah, he's like- -I have neither fifths. -Yeah, exactly. And I just- I mean, he's incredible. When he does the- you know, a section of the Malloray's about to talk about when he's like- when he does his little like, put him up duke, you know, you want it for yourself? Like little moment? Like it's just incredible. And then he like, whimpers and gowers. Just- -Stratford. -No wait, it's- -Here in my pockets. -Here in my pockets. -Could have been the pick for like 10 categories. -Yeah, I mean, all the time. -Yeah, that's terrifying. -Isn't that- isn't that odd now? Yes. After all, why not? Why shouldn't I keep it? I mean, there's so much charm and heart from Bilbo here, but the menace that we glam- -To tell us so much about the story we're watching, but the performance is just wonderful. And I think the menace here, the like, his- he sort of does like a frowning sort of, you know, and then into the my- in the slate hiss on the my preciousness of like that, I think it's so much better than the CGI jump scare that we get in Rivendell. -Oh, 100%. -Like this performance-based, like, you know, -Yeah. -He's like the cron-curled finger. -Yeah. -He's like, yeah. -Gang the ring. -Yeah, great stuff. Guys, what a movie. Anything else? Appendices. Anything we didn't hate in any of the categories that you want to toast here? I just really quickly want to mention, last week I mentioned him again, but I'm going to- So Daniel Reeve, who is a choreographer behind that, no admittance on party business, sign. I found out new information about him, which is that he was working at a bank. And- -Wow. -And just did clear-fear for fun on the side. -Awesome. -So they're like, come do some clear-fear for us at Weta, and then they just had so much work for him that he quit his job at the bank to become a full-time choreographer for Weta. And so when you go- -Wow. -When Gennalf goes to research at Minnes Tirith, all of those pages- -Oh, it's all this- -It's all calligraphy that he has done by hand. And so I procured that sign for us from the Weta website, and on the package that it comes in, I brought it to you today, it says like Daniel- it's his name on there, and it's like, talks about how he made the sign and stuff like that. -Awesome. -Shout out, Danny Reeve. -Yes. -And the most iconic movie props of all time. -God, I did not know that at all. That's wonderful. That's wonderful. -No longer a banker. -Yeah, good for him. Well done. -Brother! -I don't know if I have any other straight thought. It was lovely to just, you know, spend a half an hour with the movie again yesterday. -And then two hours and then two hours and then two hours. -And then two hours with you. -Do we do? -No, it's fun. When I worked on the show, I sort of deep-died, consumed myself in order to the rings for about 20 weeks. So I used to be more of an annual tradition, and then it kind of stopped being that for a while because I was so emotional. -You got O.D. -Yeah. -So I've only revisited them a couple of times since, and this really got me wanting to go back. And I tried to show them to my kids. I think they were a little too young, so I'm going to try it again this year. -Oh, let's do it this year. -Yeah, I think they're the right way. -Before you go, in tradition, a present. -A present. -Hobbitant. -That's right. -When they give other people presents on their birthday. -Is it your birthday? -Yeah, it's your birthday. -First week of October. -Thank you. -Don't open it up. I can't read some of the things I like. -Thank you. -Thank you. This is lovely. -Not all of our guests are going to get a present, by now. -Oh! -In fact, I don't think so. -I don't think so. It's just not being heard on those birthday. -Whether else is on this list. -Well, thank you. This is, this is, I'm delighted. No, this was such a blast. I love talking about the stuff with you. I didn't do it any time. -No, the best. You know where we are now. You know where to find us. -It's true. This is great. -It's nice. -I like that. -Yeah. -It is. -Someone will have brick-a-brack. -Our little bag end. -Are we done? -We did it. Let's do it. For the best. Thank you. Thank you. -Thank you. -Thank you. -Another one in the books. We did it. What a thrill. What a treat. That was a big one. We were excited about those chapters in that stretch of the movie and guess what? We're excited about the next chapters in the next stretch of movie, too. What are we doing next? Episode three, leaving the Shire book chapters. Here they are. Chapter three is company. Chapter five, a conspiracy on mask and the movie minutes from the extended editions are 44-ish, right? Yeah. To 57 and a half. Up through the buckleberry fairy. -Yeah, so we get to the end of the buckleberry fairy incident. Before we get debris, that is where we are ending things. Can't fucking wait. Because we've got a slight little Tom Vomitil in there. That's right. A little top bomb special. Thank you to everyone. Thank you to Brian. Obviously for joining us today and thank you to our wonderful fellowship here at the studio, Carlos, Arjuna, Jamie, Jacob, Scott, Jomi. Should we get a few more folks to join us so that we can have a solid nine? A nine. I guess we can count ourselves. So we just need one more person. I mean, the whole team, look at the set deck in here. It's just incredible. Beautiful. There you go. Ratlif. Ratlif. We got nine who helped me string up this garland earlier this morning. The best. We will see everybody next Shire Sunday for episode three. Bye.