Speaker 1This episode is brought to you by the Subtext Podcast. We're all taking in so much all the time, like headlines, social media, pop culture, and the latest thing everyone has suddenly got an opinion about. And I can't help wondering, what is all of this actually doing to us? What does it reveal about what we value, what we believe, and who we're becoming? That's the kind of question at the heart of the Subtext Podcast, hosted by Lee Camp and Savannah Locke. Lee is a retired theology professor who doesn't own a smartphone. Yes, apparently that's still possible. Well, Savannah has a master's in Anabaptist studies and is deeply tuned into books, movies, reality TV, and popular culture. Together, they look beneath the surface of everything from the odyssey and capitalism to technology and sexual ethics, exploring the ideas shaping our lives through the lens of ethics and moral philosophy. It's thoughtful and curious and wonderfully nuanced, the kind of conversation that makes you notice what's hiding underneath all that noise. If that sounds like your kind of thing, search for The Subtext wherever you get your podcasts. Listen, get curious, and see what might be hiding underneath the noise of everyday life. Oh, hello, friends. This is Everything Happens, and I'm Kate Bowler. So today we're going to do something a little different. I'm joined by the brilliant Kelly Corrigan. We do this every year. We like to take stock of both the beauty and the heartbreak that we've carried, about how those moments can be so good or so hard, and how they shape the year ahead in surprising ways. We do crappies. We do happies. Last week, we shared the crappies, and today is our chance for us to reflect on those beautiful moments that carried us. Our happies, if you will. It's so weird. I've never said, I've never said crappies so much in public, but here we are, guys, just keeping it real. Kelly, we get to be happy together, which is so ridiculous. Can we do it?
Speaker 2I mean, times are hard. Like, can we muster it?
Speaker 1I feel ready to be happy with you and only you. Okay, really, my personal happy from this year is that I made some really clutch new friends. Aw. Like, people who are, you want to call after something to go over the funny joke again so that they can hear it. And they're also people who are so interesting in their own right that I feel really excited to get to know them better, even though they are in professions I know 0% about. So I can't even come in smart.
Speaker 2I just come in like, what's your job? Yeah, tell me more.
Speaker 1I really, really, really like it. I've had a new guy friend, and I've had a lot of, like, very fun guy friends, but this one is, like, probably the nicest person I've ever met.
Speaker 3There's, like, five Kate Bowler guy friends right now that are like, what? Did she just say that? Like, does she not perceive me to be nice?
Speaker 1Not nice. I love jerks so much because they're so funny and withholding, which I find hilarious. But this one is, like. Like, he's got great male friends. He's so loving to his wife. Like, I feel like I'm meeting a buddy, but a role model, which is kind of blowing my mind.
Speaker 3Well, that's my favorite kind of friend is, like, someone you feel slightly flattered to even be in the relationship.
Speaker 2You're like, wow, I guess they like me. I don't know. And they, like, they keep writing me back. Like, we're going to have lunch. They want to go for a walk. Like, this is crazy. Exactly. And you're trying
Speaker 3to act like you've been there before, you know? Like, whatever. Sure. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, we should definitely get together. Where did you meet these new friends? Because this is something I feel like everybody wants. So maybe if there's any how-tos here to be surfaced, we should surface them.
Speaker 1Well, we met as, like, no mutual friends, just, like, at a conference kind of thing. He just told a funny story. And then I offered to be useful, even though I know that I'm not going to be useful to him. But I did. I think I did a good job of doing, like, a couple funny friends. Like, follow-ups, just to make it clear, like, hey. And also, I'm not very subtle, where it's, like, third interaction. I'm like, hey, I really want to be your friend. I really like you. Yeah. So I'm pretty, like. I just. Having been very unpopular throughout most of my young life, I feel like I'm not good at playing it cool. And, like, why start now? Yeah. So I did advertise that I think he's great. But I'm pretty good at the consistent follow-up. So I think that's really helped. And when you escalate it from, like, the email to the text or the text to the phone call, I felt like I was willing to take the jump. But it's been amazing so far. And now we, like, do fun family things together. So it's been. That's so cool. I don't know. I think I mostly took the risks. But I'm feeling the reward.
Speaker 3Yeah. Yeah. I have a new friend this year, too. Tell me. Christy Turlington, the supermodel who hates the term supermodel, is my new friend. And we. I went to Tanzania on this learning trip to see all the work that's being done around reducing maternal mortality. Wow. So we get to meet. You see all these different, like, rural hospitals in Tanzania where they're improving, you know, the labor and delivery experience. And they're training doulas. And they're trying to come up with more OBGYNs. And then more ways to get from your village to the resources. And then moving resources closer to the villages. Even just the simplest of resources, like a birthing room that's clean with water, etc. And, you know, it's a thrilling problem to concern yourself with because it's very doable. Like, 90-some percent of maternal deaths are avoidable. Like, we totally know how to do it. So that's. It's satisfying. So anyway, she's been doing this thing, Every Mother Counts, for 15 years now. And, you know, there's just nothing about me that says you're going to be friends with a supermodel. Like, I'm not in shape. I don't exercise. I cut my own hair. I color my own hair. I tweeze my own eyebrows. You know, I put on, like, the wipe-on tan. Like, you know, I mean, I'm just. I'm kind of tacky. Visually, I'm a little bit tacky. Like, I have this clothes I'm wearing today, head-to-toe or from Target. And. I'm really stuck on
Speaker 1you cutting your own hair. That's amazing. Oh, I love cutting my hair.
Speaker 3I cut my own hair. I might even cut, like, the whole hair today. It's way too long for me. I feel like it's, like, witchy-poo hair. But I live in New York City half the year, and I can't bear to spend what it costs to get your hair cut in New York City. It's just, like, a horrifying number. So I think I might just trim it myself. And then when I get to Bozeman, I go to Leanne, and Leanne is much cheaper. So she can, like, clean it up. I don't know. It's probably not a good idea. But nonetheless, it might happen. Because I don't have to do anything public between now and the end of the year. So whatever. Whatever. If my family thinks. If my hair is a little funny, whatevs. So anyway, I really came to love her. And she lives, like, three blocks from me, which means that I can. You know, I always wanted to replace these two friends of mine from Piedmont, who lived, like, four minutes away. When I moved away from California, what I gave up was, like, being four minutes away from Beth and Betsy. And then I finally found a four-minutes-away friend who I can say, Do you want to walk? Like, what do you do? Do you want to do what you're doing right now? And that. That, it's an interesting person with, like, some crazy life experience. All the better. But mostly, it's just that she's kind of a lovely, deeply relaxed person. Really easy to make plans with, think with. She's super caring. So that was my new friend. But the other big personal happy for this year was getting involved in TED. So I gave a TED Talk, which was very satisfying. I gave a TED Talk, which was very satisfying. In that, you have to think super hard about one thing over and over again. And, you know, when I write books, like, I'm not meeting constantly with my editor. I'm developing things alone, and then I deliver it. And then a couple months later, it comes back with some notes. And this was, like, I had somebody to hold my hand the whole time, who is another.
Speaker 1They, like, think with you. They have all kinds of strong opinions about, like, what makes a good, strong, sharp lead or.
Speaker 3Yeah. Yeah. And. And. It was. It's more just, like, encouraging. The woman I worked with was, like, particularly talented. Her name's Corey. And she really knew how to give me my next assignment. So it wasn't. She never was, like, a line-by-line person. But she would say, have you thought about blank? And that's, like, it. And I'd be like, that's good. That's really helpful. I will go think about blank. And then you layer it in. And then I'd say, now I feel like this. This little section is too long or this could be a little too dark for people. And. So, anyway, that. Writing with her was a great experience. And then, you know, she's right there. She stands on the side with you. You know, and she's, like, practically, like, holding my hand. And then you go up and you do it. And she's the first person to hug you when you come off. And. Aww. And I got to bring one of my kids to TED. And that was extra special. And then there's just a lot of people there who. It's like adult summer camp. Like, it's, like. brain camp. And so there's really, it's super warm. warm environment. And we, I went on Thursday, it starts on Monday morning. I went Thursday night and then I was like the last thing to happen before we all went to the big party where they have the bands and the dancing and whatever. And so that piece of it to like get shot out of a cannon into the party with my daughter who like loves to dance and is a total extrovert. I mean, we had so much fun.
Speaker 1With you.
Speaker 3So that was definitely,
Speaker 1yes. Like feel her pride and then feel how scared you probably were to go on and feel the light hysteria of like, Holy crap, I'm going to do this.
Speaker 3Yeah. Yeah. And I actually saw her when I was giving it, like I, I found her in the crowd, you know, it's just a couple thousand people. So there's a chance you won't, but all of a sudden I was just kind of moving around like you're supposed to do. And there she was. And I was like, I like almost wanted to be like, hi. Oh my gosh. And she helped me figure out, I said this little joke before I started, which you're not really supposed to do, but, and she has like, I think I'm going to say this first. She's like, you should, you definitely should. And I was like, okay, good. What was the joke? Well, it was a funny, true story. As I said, this talk is for my mom. And even though when I called to ask her like, Hey, have you ever heard of Ted T E D? She said, Oh God, Kelly, don't tell me it's another virus.
Speaker 2That's so great.
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Speaker 3That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com. Like to slide right into my inner circle and my, my next happy is very shortly after Ted with almost no warning. My mother kind of engineered a way to bring her life to a close that was right for her. And I was the witness to this thing. So she got something that she could have recovered from. She got an infection diverticulitis and it, it got bigger and bigger. And she went to the ER for pain and they told her what it was and they gave her some antibiotics and she didn't take them and she didn't tell anybody. And she lost 40 pounds. And by the time I got to her on mother's day, she was like 103 pounds and it was time to go. And we went to the hospital and she, you know, she just masterminded really. I don't think it's overstating it to say that she kind of masterminded this exit that felt right to her. And she knew she was almost 85, which is almost exactly how old my dad was when he died. She died in the same place. In hospice. And that these doctors kept coming into her all male. She says, my mom didn't go to college tiny little lady in this bed. And they're saying, Mrs. Corrigan, mostly they talk so loud, you know, they'd be like, Mrs. Corrigan, then her forehead was scrunched. And I'd be like, you can just talk at a normal place. Like, and Mrs. Corrigan, do you understand that if you take that drain out of your back, that your infection may return to Ms. Corrigan, you understand that if you don't finish the antibiotics, they were trying to give her IV antibiotics. So your infection will return. If your infection returns, you're likely to go into sepsis. And if you go into sepsis, you're likely to die. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Like three in a row. She just stared him down. And as I said, in the eulogy, like I was so impressed that I felt myself like sit up straighter. Like you would, if you were in the presence of a general, like she just called her shot. And, I think a thing that's been amazing for me to realize is that you could be in a 57 year relationship with someone and the last 10 days could have this super big impact on how the whole thing goes down in your mind and in your memory. And in reality, like I learned even, even then, even in those 10 days, I learned more and saw more and understood more and got, got more. I mean, I just got so much tenderness in that time. And I just, I hope for everyone. I really hope for everyone that their parent has some control that they are not like a victim of healthcare that wants to keep them alive at absolutely any cost and at any quality of life levels. It was like, perfect. It was a perfect death. Wow. What a woman. Truly, truly. Yeah.
Speaker 1I must've created so much awe. Just natural awe. And then like to see the summation of her story really put her at the very center. That must've been really deeply moving.
Speaker 3She told Claire, Claire went to stay with her, for like five nights because Claire's school year at Virginia had ended and she got dropped off in Philly by a buddy. And then we were coming down for mother's day. And so there was a five day gap there. And she's like, I'll just stay with jammy. I was like, great. And she said to me, like, you know, I talked to her a bunch that week and she said, guess what? Jamie said yesterday, she said, I miss my mother. Oh, and I was like, wow. Like that's, like it's happening. She's, she's imagining.
Speaker 1Yeah. Starting to reach over.
Speaker 3Switching from people who are here to the people who are there. And, um, yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah. Oh man. Those, some of those like really precious little glimpses. I not at all the same. My grandpa has always been a very special person in my life, but in part because he was so incredibly obstinate and almost every story, he had some kind of element of heroism and also him being demoted in a, in a, just a really public way. So, you know, he went from like flying bomber pilots to being forced to be in charge of like where the milk trucks would go in world war two, because he would just always found a way to like pick a fight with somebody, have a principal. I always admired the principal and it always came up in like some very dramatic. So I remember when we thought he was, you know, so fully in that hospice sleepiness that he couldn't be reached. I was sitting there beside him, holding his warm paper, thin hand. And I just said really quietly, grandpa, how many people do you think you've punched with this hand? And of course, very long silence because one, he probably couldn't hear me. And the nurses looked at, we're like, what in the world? Like, okay, granddaughter, like we're trying, we're like playing, playing violins in the background like nobody needs your sass and then after about three minutes, he all of a sudden goes, 23, maybe 24. And then he proceeded to walk me through all the people he'd punched in the face over the course of his life. And we were crying. We were laughing so hard. That is amazing.
Speaker 3He's the most
Speaker 2thing he could be, which is utterly wrong and utterly right in exactly the right moment. And you knew him. You knew him. You know what I mean? The nurses are wrong. You weren't wrong. You had it. 23, maybe 24.
Speaker 3That's phenomenal. At one point when my mom was dying, I put my earbuds in her ears and she hadn't talked for a while. And I was starting to like serve up songs that I knew she loved, like Ave Maria and the Green, Green Grass of Home and Kris Kristofferson and Neil Diamond. And Perry Como. And she loved The Boxer by Simon and Garfunkel. And this whole time now I'm on like the 13th song I've played for her and there's no change in her being. And, you know, there's a little part of me that was like, I hope I'm not driving her crazy. Like she has no way to indicate to me, but I was watching her forehead for any kind of like discomfort and I wasn't seeing it. And I was seeing it at other times, like when the doctors would come in and I'd see it kind of get tighter between her eyebrows. And so that was the only guess I had of whether it was working or not. And then The Boxer came on and then like way under her breath, I heard, and I was like, oh my God, you're there.
Speaker 2I was like, Jammie, you're here. You're here. Like, I just was like squeezing her hand. Like, I didn't know you were still here. Oh, love. Yeah. Really think. I just, you'll never convince
Speaker 3me that they can't hear you. Yeah. You know, I've been there twice now and there's just no way. Not based on my evidence. I have evidence. And that little like lie, little lie. I was like, I mean, I haven't like jumped out of my skin. I was like, oh my God, this, this changes everything. This changes everything. I just didn't know you could hear.
Speaker 2I didn't even know if you knew I was here.
Speaker 3Yeah. But it was great. It was really great. And I wish it for everyone, both for people who still have their parents, but also for us. You know, when our time comes, I was like, you have laid down the most perfect playbook, Jammie. Like you have given me, I will refer to you. To this. Yeah. Don't look for my out.
Speaker 1Do you recommend people just use that time then to say the things that like now that you felt just like to say it, to have all the being with they want to have?
Speaker 3Yeah. And I, I definitely, that room is not for everyone. It is not everyone's nature to just be right up against that situation because her body and her face and stuff. It didn't look that good because, you know, you lose 40 pounds, your cheekbones feel like they're touching the ceiling. I mean, she was so drawn and it makes your eyes really deep and, and then, you know, your hands and feet change colors. And so it's a lot like, and, um, so I guess the only thing I would say is that if you're teetering and like pushing yourself to be there or not be there, you know, for me, I would push yourself to be there. And I just think there's things to be learned. I think, you know, there's just answers there that you can't get any other way. And there's just a lot of, there's a lot of payoff. I don't feel haunted. I mean, I think about it a lot. I think about those last, you know, three or four minutes a lot. I've probably revisited them. I don't know, maybe 20 times since May, but, um, I don't know. It's just, it's incredible. Sight to see. And, and I believe, you know, I believe I walked her out. I believe she knows. And, you know, I mean, even before she stopped talking, she said, I don't know what I'd do without you. And that is not the kind of thing that she would say. That's not, she's not a mushy, like I'm such a reaction to her because I'm so emotional and effusive and affectionate. And she was kind of, um, kept it in the pocket, shall we say? And she's huge show don't tell person. Like you knew she loved you. She loved you. And she, you knew she'd do anything for you. And you knew that you were on her mind all the time, but she, you know, she wouldn't have, I mean, I only started crying like one time. I started crying when my dad died and I was about it the whole, my whole life. My kids have seen me cry like weekly.
Speaker 2My team saw me cry three times this morning.
Speaker 3Right. So yeah, Tammy and I cry, definitely cry. One of us cries at least once a week.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. We do make a couple of rules with the like beautiful messages we get in where we try to like limit cry hours where we're like, please try not to cry after 7.
Speaker 3Well, that's the amazing. Do you remember on broadcast news where Holly Hunter, like the opening scene, I think is that she like walks out onto the stock. She has this like spontaneous fit of crying. And then she walks back on the dock and I remember seeing it. And I love that movie for so many reasons, but I remember thinking that scene was so weird. I was like, what is that? Like, I don't even get that. And that's because I was like 23. Now I'm like, of course, of course you need it to like purge the weight of the world and like dump it into the, across the lake, send your tears across the lake and then get busy and get back to work. Yeah. Yep. I can see that. I can see that. What's your inner circle happy?
Speaker 1I am of the generation of gentle parenters where we've hoped that our children's self-esteem can most really just their entire character can be built from compliments. Like, do you even have to give them negative feedback? Probably not. When you can just encourage them to lean into the integrity of their yeses, you know? It's just like ever since Zach was born, I mean, I was, I was just frankly so thrilled to have overcome like the terrible season of infertility that this child, like just every night when we put him to bed, it's like where we have like, like the pageantry, the fanfare that like, it's like a coronation ceremony every night. Cause we're like, and we now crown you our very favorite person of the day. We go through his feelings. We like, I mean, it is just, it is absolutely a lot. And then we put him in baseball. It turns out there is crying in baseball. What was that movie with, um, league of their own where they're like, there's no crying in baseball. There's so much crying in baseball. He's never played a sport before ever. And so, um, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's a really good thing. So, and I see like 10 now. Yeah. He just turned 11 and it's, it's like a late start. And he just was like, this is my dream. I now want to play baseball, even though I'm positive. He just like saw some baseball cards, thought trading cards was fun. And then as like stuck on third base, like openly weeping as people
Speaker 2throw, throw balls at his head.
Speaker 1And then, you know, then there's coaches who think that he's adorable and coaches that don't. And so we've had to draw like, like feelings charts where we're like, Hey, just trying to keep you within, like, I was like, the ceiling is like great feelings. We want to figure out the floor. Cause the basement is shame. Let's just like try to keep you out of the basement. But it's been, it turns out all the kids can't stop crying. And I feel like it's really, I'd like to hope it's just a generational limitation where we all have the same fault and we're just having it collectively. Yeah. That's been, um, both a huge joy and also the end, the limit of my parenting. It is, um, Signing him up for this much intermittent sorrow, but they just won the championship. I don't know what that means, but he got his first trophy that wasn't actually just borrowing our friends. We, he's borrowed a lot of my friends, like cross country, 10th grade ribbons over the years. So this is the first bit of self-esteem that belongs to him and his effort. I really hope he doesn't do it again. It's so much time. I actually, I went up to one of the parents. I was like, Oh my gosh, we can, we can, I was, I was like, so this is wrapping up soon. Cause it's of course, 9:00 PM on a school night. Oh, they're like, oh no, no, no. Like we were here. We're here another like four hours.
Speaker 3Hey, you know, I moved to Bozeman this year and I was talking to some parents. They have to drive like six hours to play a sports game. So it's just not enough teams. No, I was like, well, I cannot believe anyone in this town does sports then like that's insane. They're like, oh, I know all the kids get headaches. Cause they're trying to do their homework in the moving car on the way home from like volleyball.
Speaker 1I'm like, what is even going on? Like I liked the, um, I interviewed, um, coach K. Oh, Hey, actually this is a happy, I interviewed coach K who's the, um, famous Duke basketball coach. And I work in a basketball. Oh, well for me who knew so much about basketball going in, I live and work at a basketball shrine, but he said that when he, part of why he became a coach is when he was young, all of his friends would play baseball, but he would just sort of herd them into groups as they ran away from their parents. And then they would sort of scream at each other for hours. hours every night. And I thought, well, that makes sense as a semi-organized sport. Like, what are we doing driving six hours when one child with a sense of determination could just scream at our children for free? So I like Coach K.
Speaker 3I got to do this crazy thing back when George and Barbara Bush were alive. They used to have this celebration of reading where they raise all this money for literacy programs. And so they'd have six writers. So the year that I did it, it was Doris Kearns Goodwin, Brad Thor, who writes like thrillers, Jeff Kinney, who wrote Diary of a Whippy Kid, a cookbook person, me, and Coach K had written a book about coaching the Olympic team. And I got to bring a date to this. And I'm a Democrat. My parents were Republicans. I was like, Greeny, my dad, I got like the best invitation ever for you. We're going to go to lunch with the president and Mrs. Bush and the other, readers are going to be there. And so Greeny got to sit next to Coach K for this two-hour lunch with President Bush. And I was over with Jeff Kinney and Mrs. Bush. And I mean, I never saw my dad so happy. Yeah. Just like pulling every story out of Coach K. And it, you know, he just had so much to work with. In fact, at the end of my dad's life, I had to go give a reading in the middle of that 21-day period. And I was panicked. I didn't understand. You know, you don't know what's happening. You don't know how fast it's happening. And I said to Edward, will you come here from California? Will you come to Philadelphia and just stay with him while I have to go to North Carolina, actually, to do a reading? And he said, sure. So I called him at the end of the night. I'm like, how is he? He's like, he's all right. And I said, what'd you guys do? And he said, we sat in bed and watched a Duke basketball game. I was like, you sat in bed with my dad? And he's like, oh yeah, it was great. That's so cute. Like Eddie. I can never leave you.
Speaker 1We're going to take a quick break to tell you about the sponsors of this show. We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by FIGS. So, I know a lot of you listening work in healthcare. And first of all, thank you so much. You are the people who show up and go above and beyond to care for other people. And second of all, if you don't already know about FIGS, it is time. FIGS mission is to empower people that work in healthcare by making the best scrubs, apparel, and accessories. The holiday season is officially here. And if you work in healthcare or happen to know anyone who does, you know, it's the most wonderful time of the year. Sure. But also the busiest. It's also the perfect time to think about giving them or yourself what they really want this year. And that's some ridiculously soft, stylish, comfortable FIGS scrubs. FIGS just launched their all-new holiday collection, featuring tons of new styles and accessories in festive shades that'll bring all the holly jolly merriness to their shift. From scrub wear to outerwear to accessories and beyond, FIGS has a little something for gifting every awesome human on your list, including yourself. So if you're in healthcare or shopping for someone who is. Be sure to check them out. You can get 15% off your first order at wearfigs.com with the code FIGSRX. That's wearfigs.com, code FIGSRX. This episode is brought to you by Merit Beauty. Somehow it is already fall, and that means we're probably in the thick of our routines by now. And in the middle of a busy life, I'm trying to find those little moments that make me feel like myself. And Merit Beauty has become one of those things for me that I can get ready and feel without spending a ton of time in front of the mirror. I really like trying new products, but need things to be very low maintenance and easy to replicate. I recently tried Merit's Great Skin Serum and then used The Minimalist for quick, buildable coverage. And with my fingers, because, you know, I'm classy like that, just like added a little flush balm on my cheeks and finished with their Clean Volume Mascara. And that was it. Just a couple minutes, and I felt ready to go. Right now, Merit Beauty is offering our listeners their signature makeup bag, which if you've seen it, it's not just a makeup bag, but really an accessory, free with your first order at MeritBeauty.com. That's M-E-R-I-T Beauty.com, MeritBeauty.com. Can I do the nine to five one? Because now I'm thinking of a fun work one. Yeah. My work-related happy was I've always wanted to try stand-up. You do? I just thought it's so dumb, right? I mean, the amount of insecurity it creates. Totally. It's easier for me to like, I mean, I like giving a speech mostly because I have an argument and like, I'm not going to be wrong. Like, I already know I'm not going to be wrong. I've worked really hard on that argument. I did the research. Like, then I can come in with a lot of confidence because it's, to me, it's always argument-based. But like, if it's personality or humor-based, like, okay, you might like me. You might be waiting for the real person, the real person to show up. So at the very beginning of my Coach K event, I thought, wouldn't it be fun to start it off with like a seven? I was like, I'll do a tight seven. Didn't know what that meant, but I had heard my comedian friends be like, they always say like, oh, I did a tight five. And I was like, cool. So I created, like, wrote some jokes. And then I called one of my very favorite comedians is Jerry D. He has this amazing show in Canada about being a high school basketball coach or, or a high school, like, phys ed teacher. And Jerry D. also does Family Feud Canada. And one time he let me and my sister go on Family Feud, and he made us big badges.
Speaker 2And like, it's great on stage,
Speaker 1which bring me a lot of joy. So I, I like, performed it all for Jerry. And I was like, what do you think? And this is very long silence. And he's like, yeah, there's, there's a lot there. And I was like, oh my gosh, you hate it. He's like, yeah, I really hate it. So I was like, oh, it's really bad. It was bad. And then they're experts, right? He like, broke down all my jokes. He's like, yeah, this doesn't work because it's not believable. This doesn't work because you said this about yourself. And no one thinks that about you. You have to start with a premise they can buy into. And I was like, oh, screw you. So then he gave me a couple ideas. And he was like, he's like, look, this worked for me when I, this is the most Canadian anecdote ever. He's like, when I had to introduce Wayne Gretzky, I, I think the strongest move you can do when you come in and you know, someone is like so much better than you, you kind of got a punch down like pretend that you're above them but you gotta punch down hard and i was like okay okay okay okay also that totally works between men i think right as opposed to like some kind of like me little house on the prairie phase coming out and being like so like what's the deal with um so i developed a seven minute set that i practiced more than i've ever practiced for anything in my life i rented out fake stages with sound crews so that i can film it i had a million versions of note cards which i slowly dropped off and then unfortunately for coach k didn't warn him he said he was like he's so prepared he's so professional he's standing side stage and he's he's like so what's gonna happen and i was like well i'm just gonna go out and introduce you we'll just play a little funny video and i'll introduce you and then we'll have a meaningful conversation he's like sounds good so i go out on stage and i begin seven minutes of a set that's like basically not insinuating stating that under any circumstances i could absolutely do his job if given if given
Speaker 2the opportunity and he's standing there like fully
Speaker 1arms crossed it's just like what as i'm like working the crowd trying my material desperately because i kept picturing that one moment where he realizes i'm making fun of him and like will he think it's funny or will he be like i regret every choice that led me to this moment so he comes out on stage and then i just knew there was going to be so much awkwardness so i handed him a instead of like doing the greeting i handed him a whiteboard and i was like um so normally like i've heard that you write of like a focus word to help sort of situate your focus your team i wondered that maybe we could both write a word right now to help focus our conversation and then i wrote best friends because i was trying to be funny and then he wrote hopeful and i was like why did you choose hopeful he's like i don't know if he swore but he said some version of like i'm just pretty hopeful i'm gonna learn if you can do your effing job in the next 40 minutes i wept i was like now we're in it but like i could see the moment he just decided
Speaker 2this is what's happening to me who is this woman how did i get in how did we get here who gave her this confidence the
Speaker 1answer is jerry d can
Speaker 2is this viewable like can we all go to youtube and see this i'm gonna i don't know if i i don't
Speaker 1think i'm going to uh air it it's so ridiculous
Speaker 3can you send it to me then can i well it's so dumb it's so great i love that you did that my daughter claire does stand up and i like so i've watched somebody do it like 25 times and it and i've watched all the other people do it and oh my god i'm just so impressed like all hail like that is because i mean i've given millions i mean i don't know more probably a thousand speeches in 20 years and even before that i worked free night away and all i was doing was giving speeches telling people to give a dollar from their paycheck and i could i mean i don't think i could do it i think i'd be too
Speaker 1nervous i think 100 you could you just have to tell a comedian in advance and they'll tell you that everything you ever thought was funny is actually a great disappointment to them
Speaker 3oh if i told i mean if i practiced in front of claire she'd be like here's some feedback here's a note yeah let me give you a couple notes there ma oh my god well done you okay so my my work nine to five happy is that with very little forethought or effort honestly we started doing something that most podcasts do which is we send a little note each week to say oh we this we had bono on this week let's just say i mean you know those pulling a name out of a hat and um that was it that was it that was a work high holy having bono was a total total total work high but like sending these little emails and then we just have a super plain email address it's just hello ed kelly corrigan and like all of a sudden all these numbers that that you're watching when you're a podcaster how many downloads and how far into the episode did they listen and how many lists episodes they listen to in a month and all that quantification that just ruins it all and like turns people into numbers all the numbers turn back into people because there they are and it's like they have a name and they have a little story and they share something with you and so being in touch with listeners totally changes how i feel about my job and i don't know why i didn't do it sooner and the the whole reason we're able to do it is because of these two women charlie up church and rachel hicks put it all together who convinced me that it was not going to be too stressful who helped me see all the emails that come in because they kind of batch them together and um that that has been very satisfying because per my crappy yeah on the numbers thing that's just no place to spend your time yeah but you can't help it it's like part of your business you know and you have to run your business even though all you want to do is just talk to nice people about good stuff yeah totally
Speaker 1totally that's right like we were talking about it's hard to it's just so hard to try without all of the other emotions you don't want crowding in like the door opens and they all run in with it
Speaker 3yes right and this feels like this very simple change that we made that's totally doable it's not stressing anybody out nice is like buoying all of us yeah and even we share it with dean kateri who's the technical producer we share it with garrett peters who does the sunday podcast who does the sunday pod the thanks for being here and you know it's just for all of us i think it's like this is what we're doing this is the point of
Speaker 1what we're doing yeah this
Speaker 3is who this all are
Speaker 1yeah that's so nice all right
Speaker 3what's your bonus um
Speaker 1i've been reading uh well actually i've been writing again i'm writing a book and i got some advice actually i love like we get to meet writers all the time right and it's always very inspiring to hear what they're writing about and i'm like we're working on but it really made me laugh when i was talking to ann patchett who's of course like an incredibly talented novelist she said i thought in a very pointed way hey kate i'm writing a book about happy people you should try it sometime screw you oh my gosh it really made me laugh you should try it sometime and i was like fine so i'm writing a book about joy right now and how is it how's it going it's definitely the stretch i need right now because i well first of all sometimes you just don't really even know definitionally what something is like you think you know and i guess that's what's so fun about a research project is like well then what counts as joy i was going to have a whole section on like ordinary joys and then i was going to think about like the way you feel about your pets or your backyard and there's this wonderful uh writer named margaret rankle and she's always writing about like the way you feel about your pets or your backyard and there's this wonderful like birds and her backyard and so when i went into her actual backyard i was like margaret your backyard better be pretty effing magical because i don't have a single thing to say about my backyard and so i thought you know this is going to be okay i'm just going to write about these like contemplative beautiful things and turns out one i'm absolutely garbage at writing about the more peaceful elements and two i decided it's not joy i decided that it's peace i decided that's different forms of love but that it's not joy and i decided that it's not joy and i decided that it's not joy and therefore i don't have to write about it and i immediately let margaret know i was like screw you in your backyard margaret i'm not doing
Speaker 3it what is joy what's an example of joy
Speaker 1one example is like when you cross a threshold like you think like a door opens it's like a sudden transition so it could feel like relief it could feel like but i didn't realize that that feeling of a sudden gateway is a is like an integral part to joy and so you meet people all the time and you're like oh my god i'm so happy i'm so happy i'm so happy i'm so happy i'm so happy who think like you know sort of like the feeling of having a like a prison sentence waved like you really thought life was determinatively held like headed in one direction and suddenly makes a left hand turn and so i i love i i realize when people tell me a story like that i'm almost always going to hear about joy
Speaker 3what's another like a near cousin of joy that's not joy in the way you think
Speaker 1of it love i mean right now my son has a a box a snuggle box right that he snuggles in every morning we were late to school today because he spent too much time in the snuggle box um that's love it's just but it's not joy sometimes i feel like
Speaker 3a little burst of joy when i realize that my body feels good from head to toe is that fair i
Speaker 1mean i think like a realization that then like floods in some gratitude like that that could be joy mm-hmm there's also like just a transcendent element that i just realized like in everything i ever want to pay attention to and write about i guess what i'm always looking for is that like that in-breaking feeling where it could have been one way but it was another and i've really noticed that i've met some really remarkable people recently who have truly terrible things happen but have turned it into like you could almost like the transmogrifier machine from calvin and hobbes like they take a thing and then it suddenly becomes something else and it's like i've just watched people recently turn grief into justice for somebody else or turn a lot of pain into forgiveness and there's nothing very causal about it but it it does create like a genuine awe being close to it and so i think that's maybe what i'm looking for in this writing is like man i just want to feel awe about joy what are some of the other chapters oh my gosh i think it's mostly garbage right now kelly don't you just feel like writing is just this miasma of garbage it's the garbage continent floating somewhere in the ocean and
Speaker 2all of a sudden it's a book
Speaker 3i think that i think i might title i'm also working on a book and i think i might give the working manuscript the title a miasma of garbage so that as i enter it each day i have i'm entering with the proper expectation of what i'm going to discover it's like we're still in the garbage stage totally and many beautiful things potentially are going to be in the garbage stage yet to come totally do not be discouraged by
Speaker 1dumps have all kinds of treasures in there i mean right having watched bears eat garbage for a lot of my high school life at summer camp i know real advantage
Speaker 3you know to you as a writer i mean that's like one of your gifts is that they were just bears eating garbage nearby seemingly all the time as a metaphor just wait it's just a happy metaphor of your life in the future i was like that'll preach yeah
Speaker 1hey what are you writing about though what's your book i can't
Speaker 3tell you and i'll tell you why i can't tell you i can't tell you because it's about joy no i'm just
Speaker 2kidding uh it's actually kate bowler a biographical account of a
Speaker 3friendship yeah it's just about transmogrification um no it's the reason why is because i've learned something over the years that i'm very sensitive at this stage of things to whatever little reaction you might have and it puts tremendous pressure on the people you're talking to so that if you were to yeah like one time i was working on a book and the person said that's so cute cute what did you say cute like cute like is this cute and i'll like for days i just look over and say to edward is it cute i mean am i right is like am i cute like what happened why why did she say that and he's like kelly she's probably like you know half paying attention to you and half like answering a text from one of her kids and half trying to wave her husband over to the corner of the room so he could find her and and now you're like gonna throw it all away because this one person said this one word that's like unraveling you and i was like well cute is like really pretty bad word he's
Speaker 1like there you go again you're like obsessed i read a paragraph to a friend yesterday and he didn't say anything nice and it was so horrible it was horrible so i regret it the rest of the night i was like why did i read this out loud what is wrong with me why did i think you were a supportive
Speaker 3person yes or um yeah there's like a lot of reasons why a paragraph may or may not work. And if you're just pulling one out of the blue, it's like, well, maybe the reason it's beautiful is because of what came before it that you didn't read out loud. So I think it's very high risk for me because I'm sensitive to other people's feedback and their facial expressions and the pacing of their feedback and the expression and the volume and the word choice. Like all of that like threatens the whole project for me. Yeah. Yeah. Especially with somebody like you who is a writer and somebody I respect and whatever, like if you didn't have precisely the right reaction, I'd be like, fuck it. It's going to
Speaker 2burn it all down. I'm not doing it.
Speaker 1And from not knowing, and then I will know later, my response will be unadulterated joy and interest. I'll show it to you later. I'll mime it for
Speaker 2you in a video that you can control. Thank you. Thank you. Um, I think my bonus,
Speaker 3it's, it's, it's kind of lame actually, but I was really afraid and I don't want to forget. Sometimes I, I anticipate something negative. It doesn't happen. And I don't actually like celebrate it not happening enough given how nervous I was that it might happen. And a thing I was really, really afraid of was some kind of wave of terrible civil violence after the election. And I was like, I don't want to forget. And I was like, I don't Yeah. And you know, the person I voted for didn't win, but it felt free. It felt fair. It felt like that's the way the cookie crumbled. And it certainly seems like there's going to be a peaceful transfer of power. And it was kind of crazy, but I had, I had a range of feelings watching Trump in the Oval Office with Joe Biden in front of that fire not that long ago and you know, they shook hands for the media, but there was something about it that was like, I need this. I need this norm to stay intact. And I, I don't know if it would have gone as smoothly if the outcome had been different, but it's like a tiny win for me that something I was really scared of didn't happen. And you know, on a, on a similar note, I was really scared that Matt Gates was general, which upset me because I thought how deeply discouraging for all the people who are super qualified for that job, who have no, absolutely no whiff of bad, bad, bad behavior on them who were overlooked. And I thought how discouraging that would be for everyone who has been assaulted to think like, God, they don't even care anymore. People don't even care anymore. Like you can be the head of justice and have treated people unjustly and illegally. So it was just a relief to me that there was a line there. And even if he selected somebody who is going to carry out policies that I, that I may disagree with or feel concerned about, it's not a predator and that matters at some tiny level. So that is my weird bonus.
Speaker 1Hmm. That's a good one. That's a nice one. Actually, I have an, I have a civic bonus that happened. In North Dakota, they have this thing called the Brave Conversations Project. And it's this lovely collaboration between this humanities organization and the indigenous elder historian of this local tribe. And they get together and there's a lecture and then there's all these tables set up with just water and people will sit around the table and talk about whatever the lecture was among people who are very different than themselves, got to give a lecture and then watch the spirit of this project to be entirely about like common understanding. So that's why it's like Brave Conversations. So it was in my table, it was a police officer, a English professor, a nurse, a, like, it was a great mix of people that I think probably voted very differently, being incredibly generous with each other. They were very like vulnerable with each other. And it was like in a city, like Grand Forks is big enough that it's not like they knew each other. And it was like a deeply nostalgic, small, you know, small town story of strangers being charitable. And, um, and then at the end I got presented with like a, with a blanket, like a Daniel blanket. And what was so nice is the, it was the son of this wonderful elder who he picked a blanket that was of the night sky over where I grew up and was like, these are of the Northern lights. So I'm like, thank you for being a Northern light. And I really just felt like, man, we are like the feeling that we are being lights to each other, but felt so visceral in the middle of so much fear about the election and fear about what political division will do to us that I have to admit that was probably one of the most meaningful. Experiences that I've had at all in a long time.
Speaker 3That is a great one to end on. That is a hopeful vision.
Speaker 1People, people, peopling. It's pretty lovely.
Speaker 3Peopling, people, peopling. Um, love you.
Speaker 1Oh, love you, hon. Thanks for happy and crappying with me.
Speaker 3Thanks for happy and crappying. See you next year.
Speaker 1Friends, here we are standing on the edge of a new year with all its questions and promises and unknowns. Life is always a mix of lovely and terrible, isn't it? But maybe that's where we find what's most real, the love that sustains us, the hope that insists on showing up anyway. And to all of you, my lovely listeners, may this year, be one where you are gentle with what's fragile, bold with what's possible, and open to the wonder of what might still be. Bless you, darlings. And I'd love to hear from you. What are your happies from this year? Call us at 919-322-8731 or just write me a note on social media. I'm at Kate C. Bowler. Hey, also, make sure you are subscribed over at katebowler.com slash newsletter. We have a new series starting this January, and I don't want you to miss it. It's very cool, and I'm very excited about it. And hey, a huge thank you to Kelly, Tammy, and our whole team at Kelly Corrigan Wonders for making this episode possible. What a treat. This is Everything Happens with me, Kate Bowler. And I'll see you next time.
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